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CHARLES WILLIAM WASON
COLLECTION
CHINA AND THE CHINESE
THE GIFT OF
CHARLES WILLIAM WASON
CLASS OF 1876
1918
Cornell University Library
DU 122.C5A5
Report of the Royal Commission on allege
3 1924 023 440 187
Cornell University
Library
The original of this book is in
the Cornell University Library.
There are no known copyright restrictions in
the United States on the use of the text.
http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924023440187
1891-2.
NEW SOUTH WALES.
REPORT
OP THE
ROYAL COMMISSION
ON ALLEGED
CHINESE GAMBLING AND IMMORALITY
AND
CHARGES OF BRIBERY AGAINST MEMBERS
OF THE POLICE FORCE.
APPOINTED AUGUST 20, 1891.
$resenteti to $avltatt«nt &g (Ccmtmano,
SYDNEY: CHARLES POTTER, GOVERNMENT PRINTER.
1892.
272— a
Mc\\
CONTENTS
Title-page
Contents
Commission ...
First Extension of Commission
Second do do
Minutes of Proceedings
Report
Minutes of Evidence
Deputation to the Mayor
Visits of Inspection ...
Appendix A ...
Do B
Do C
Do — .Report of Sanitary Inspector Seymour
Do — Police Returns...
Do — Letter from Mr. Nock re Police
PAGE.
1
2
3
4
4
5
19
1
473
47S
478
479
480
481
485
489
(Homm'xssxon.
V1CT0EIA, by the Grace of G-od, of tlie United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Queen,
Defender of the Faith, and so forth, —
To our trusty and well-beloved —
The Eight "Worshipful "William Patrick Manning, Esquire, J.P., Mayor of the City of Sydney,
Eeancis Abigail, Esquire, J.P.,
Bamsay McKillop, Esquire,
Quong Taet, Esquire, and
John Stuaet Hawthoene, Esquire, —
Greeting : —
Know ye, that "We, reposing great trust and confidence in your ability, zeal, industry,
discretion, and integrity, do by these presents authorise and appoint you, or any three or more of you, as
hereinafter-mentioned, to make a diligent and full inquiry with the view of ascertaining the undoubted
facts in the matter of alleged illicit gambling and immoralities among the Chinese resident in George-
street North, in the said City of Sydney and neighbourhood, and the alleged bribery or misconduct of any
members of the Police Eorce in relation thereto ; also, to make visits of inspection to localities in the said
City and Suburbs occupied by Chinese, and investigate and report upon social conditions, means of sanitary
provision in the dwellings and workshops, the callings or occupations, and other circumstances affecting
the well-being of such persons : And "We do, by these presents, grant to you,, or any three or more of
you, at any meeting or meetings to which all of you shall have been duly summoned, full power and
authority to call before you all such persons as you may judge necessary, by whom you may be bettor
informed of the truth in the premises, and to require the production of all such books, papers, writings,
and all other documents as you may deem expedient, and to visit and inspect the same at the offices or
places where the same or any of them may be deposited, and to inquire of the premises by all lawful ways
and means : And We do give you power, at your discretion, to procure such clerical and other assistance
as you may deem necessary for enabling you duly to execute this Oar Commission : And Our further
will and pleasure is, that you do within three months after the date of this Our Commission, certify to Us,
in the office of Our Colonial Secretary, under your or any three or more of your hands and seals, what you
shall find touching the premises : And We hereby command all Government officers and other persons
whomsoever within Our said Colony that they be assistant to you and each of you in the execution of
these presents: And "We appoint you the said "William Pateick Manning, Esq., to be President of
this Our Commission, which said Commission .We declare to be a Commission for all purposes of the
Act H Victorise No. 1, intituled, •' An Act to regulate the talcing of evidence ~by Commissioners under tlie
Great Seal." '
In testimony whereof, We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent, and under the Great
Seal of Our said Colony of New South Wales to be hereunto affixed.
"Witness, Our Eight Trusty and "Well-beloved Cousin and Councillor, Victoe Albeet
Geoege, Eael of Jersey, Knight Grand Cross of Our Most Distinguished Order
of Saint Michael and Saint George, Our Governor and Commander-in-Chief of the
said Colony of New South Wales and its Dependencies, at Government House,
Sydney, in New South "Wales aforesaid, this twentieth day of August, in the fifty-
fifth year of Our Eeign, and in the year of Our Lord one thousand eight hundred
and ninety-one.
(l.s.) JEESEY.
FIEST EXTENSION OF COMMISSION.
Wheeeas it is necessary to extend the time by which the Commissioners are to make their report in the
above matter. Now, therefore, I do hereby, with the advice of the Executive Council, extend the time
within which the said Commissioners are to make such report until the end of the present year, to take
effect from the twenty-first instant.
Given under my Hand at Government House, Sydney, this twenty-fourth day of
November, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-one.
JEESET.
By His Excellency's Command,
GEOEGE E. DIBBS.
SECOND EXTENSION OF COMMISSION.
"Whereas it is necessary to extend the time by which the Commissioners in the above matter are to make
their final report. Now, therefore, I do hereby, with the advice of the Executive Council, extend the
time within which the said Commissioners are to make such report until the twenty-second instant.
Given under my Hand at Government House, this twenty-first day of January, one
thousand eight hundred and ninety-two.
JEESET.
By His Excellency's Command,
GEOEGE E. DIBBS.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION.
MINUTES OF MEETINGS.
THURSDAY (MORNING), 27 AUGUST, 1891.
PEESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The President read the Commission.
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
On the motion of Mr. Hawthorne, seconded by Mr. McKillop, Mr. Abigail was elected Vice-
President.
Resolved, — That the Commission should meet three times weekly : on Tuesday afternoon at 3
o'clock, and on Thursday and Saturday evenings at half-past 7 o'clock.
Eesolved, — That the services of Mr. Lisson be retained as interpreter.
Eesolved, — That Mr. A. W\ Purdie be appointed messenger at a sa'ary of £2 2s. per week.
Eesolved, — That the Colonial Secretary be requested to place the sum of £1,000 to the credit of the
Commission at any bank that he might think fit.
Eesolved, — That the Government be asked to kindly furnish the Commission with a return
showing : —
(1.) The number of persons proceeded against by warrant or by summons for gambling in the city
of Sydney and suburbs from the commencement of the records to the present time, each year to
be shown separately.
(2.) The total population of the city of Sydney and suburbs for each such year.
(3.) The number of Chinese resident each such year in the city of Sydney and suburbs.
(4.) The number of convictions each such year as the result of the proceedings as mentioned in No. 1.
(5.) The nature of the penalty in each case, and if no conviction, for what reason ?
(6.) The place in which the offence was committed, and Police Office in which the case was dealt
with.
(7.) The nature, if ascertained, of the gambling.
(8.) The nationality of each person proceeded against.
(9.) Age, occupation, and general circumstances, if known, of such person.
(10.) Number able to read and write.
(11.) Number of cases in which proceedings initiated by police as the result of periodical raids.
(12.) Number of cases initiated on the evidence of informers solely, and the nationality of such
informers.
(13.) The total number of places, dwellings, or shops, in the city or suburbs known to the police as
places in which habitual gambling takes place.
(14.) The number of such places in the city and suburbs occupied by Chinese.
(15.) The number of raids made by the police each year, the locality in which such raids were made,
and the reason for the making of each.
The Secretary was instructed to obtain and lay before the Commission : —
(1.) Copies of New South Wales Acts of Parliament, dealing with gambling.
(2.) Copies of the reports of the proceedings of deputations which have waited upon the Colonial
Secretary, or any other Minister at different periods, and of the papers, if any, submitted by
such deputations, in reference to Chinese or other gambling.
(3.) Copies of any correspondence between associations or individuals and the Government, with
relation to gambling by Chinese.
Eesolved, — That a request be sent to the Hon. the Colonial Secretary for reports made to him by
the Inspector- General, upon the charges made by members of a recent deputation, to the effect that the
Police accepted bribes from the proprietors of Chinese gambling-houses, to induce them not to interfere
in such places.
Eesolved, — That the Inspector-General of Police be requested to supply a return showing —
(1.) The number of houses, tenements, or workshops kept by Chinese, or occupied by them in Sydney,
Suburbs, Hay, Narrandera, Emmaville, or any other portion of New South Wales.
(2.) The names of the owners of such places, the rent paid for them, the accommodation contained
in each, and the number occupying the same.
(3.) The social and moral condition of the residents in each.
(4.) any remarks as to the effect upon Europeans in and about such locality.
Eesolved, — That the President communicate with the Premiers of the other Australian Colonies, to
furnish, for the information of the Commission, copies of the Acts of Parliament, and of any special
regulations in force, and their respective colonies, in connection with Chinese gambling or gambling
generally, as also particulars of the method adopted by their respective Police for the detection and sup-
pression of gambling.
The
G
The Secretary was instructed to obtain five type-written copies of the report of and evidence taken
by the Select Committee on Common Lodging Houses.
Eesolved,— That the next meeting of the Commission be held the same evening for the purpose
of visiting the Chinese gambling-houses iu George-street North.
Mr. Sanitary Inspector Seymour and Mr. Inspector Potter were interviewed with regard to the
carrying out of the previous resolution.
THURSDAY (EVENING), 27 AUGUST, 189L.
PttESEST : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The Commission proceeded on a tour of inspection to George-street North, accompanied by Mr.
Sanitary Inspector Seymour, Mr. Inspector Atwill, Mr. Lisson, and Detective Tindall. Upon arrival at
the shop occupied by Sun Sam Kee as a gambling-house the Commission discovered five Europeans
playing fan-tan in an' inner apartment. The men all dispersed upon observing that they were watched.
Subsequently the Commission visited other Chinese quarters in George-street North, Little Essex-street,
Hanson's Buildings, Queen-street, and Queen's-place.
SATURDAY, 29 AUGUST, 1891.
PRESENT : — •
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The Commission proceeded on a tour of inspection to Goulburn-street and neighbourhood,
accompanied by Mr. Lisson, Detective Tindall, and Detective West. The route taken was as follows : — •
Goulburn-street East and "West, Pitt-street, Campbell-street, Wexford-street, Eobertson's-lane, Sussex-
street, and Victoria-place.
TUESDAY, 1 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J. P., j Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., i John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
Minutes of the previous meetings read and confirmed.
Eesolved, — That Mr. Sanitary Inspector Seymour be requested to make a report upon the different
Chinese habitations of the City of Sydney, as to their sanitary, moral, and social conditions.
Mr. Quong Tart supplied certain valuable information for the future guidance of the Commission.
The Secretary was instructed to ask Mr. G. B. Walker to be in attendance at the next meeting.
Eesolved, — That Mr. Lisson' s appointment as interpreter be for one month, and that he be paid at
the rate of £150 per annum.
THURSDAY, 3 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
Pee sent : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The following witnesses were examined : — George Black, M.L.A., Mr. Thomas Eigby, Mr. Thomas
Nock.
FRIDAY, 4 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
PkESENT := —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence.— A letter was received from the Secretary, stating that upon the receipt of the
signature of the President for an advance of £500, that amount w^ould be placid to the credit of the
Commission at the Commercial Bank of Sydney.
Letters
Letters were received from Mr. EicKard Kelly, Secretary to the Anti-Chinese Gambling League,
suggesting the names of certain witnesses, and. asking for payment of £1 Is. for loss of time in conse-
quence of his own attendance as a witness on the previous day. The Secretary was instructed to summon
the witnesses referred to by Mr. Kelly.
Further valuable information was placed at the disposal of the Commission.
Mr. G- B. Walker was engaged as Clerk to the Commission, at a- weekly salary of £2 2s.
Ihe following witnesses were examined :— Young Yow and Chen, Ah Teak,
TUESDAY, 8 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence.— A letter was received from Mr. Eichard Kelly, enclosing a paragraph from the
Sydney Echo of the previous day.
The following witnesses were examined :— Mr. Eichard Armstrong ajii Mr, A. M. Chambers.
THURSDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
Present : — .
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The Secretary was instructed to forward to the General Manager of the Commercial Banking
Company of Sydney a document authorising the President to sign cheques on behalf of the Commission
as a whole.
The following witnesses wfre examined :— Mr. Eichard Kelly, E. G. Nolan, and Ah Toy.
FRIDAY, 11 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P., I Eamsey McKillop,, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., | John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
Correspondence. — A letter was read from Mr. Healy, of St Vincent's Hospital, calling attention to
some correspondence on the Chinese gambling question that appeared nearly twelve months previously
in the metropolitan press.
; : A letter was also read from Mr. Thomas Eigby, asking that he might be paid 12s. 6d. for loss of
wages consequent upon his attendance before the Commission as a witness. The Secretary was instructed
to pay the amount claimed.
The following witnesses were called : — Ah Toy and T. M. Davis, M.P.
MONDAY, 14 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — Further suggestions in regard to witnesses were received from Mr. Eichard
Kelly, Honorary Secretary to the Anti-Chinese Gambling League, and also an account for £2 2s. claimed
as fees by Mr. Kelly for attendance as a witness upon two occasions. It was decided that the considera-
tion of Mr. Kelly's claim should be held in abeyance until the Commission had discussed and determined
the general question of witnesses' attendance fees.
Information was received respecting prospective witness from Mr. E. A. Nolan.
The following witnesses were examined : — Ah Wah and Way Kee.
WEDNESDAY, 1G SEPTEMBER, 1*91.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq , J.P..
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.,
The minutes of previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A supplementary list of prospective witnesses was furnished by Mr. Eichard
Kelly. Hon. Sec. to the Anti-Chinese Gambling League. Claims for witnesses' attendance fees of £1 Is.,
were received from Mr. Thomas Nock, Mr. Alfred M. Chambers, and Mr. Eoberfc G. Nolan, respectively.
Copies of each of the following Queensland Acts relating to gambling were received from the Principal
Under Secretary, viz., An Act to amend the law concerning Games and Wagers, an Act for legalizing
Art Unions, and an Act to prevent Lotteries. The Secretary was instructed to obtain five more copies of
each measure.
The examination of Way Kee was continued.
FRIDAY,
8
FRIDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
Peesest : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., Ramsey McKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A letter from Mr. Richard Kelly, Hon. Sec, Anti-Chinese Gambling League,
was read.
The following witnesses were examined : — Moy Hing and Mr. Henry Joseph Maguire.
TUESDAY, 22 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
PEESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Prancis Abigail, Esq., J.P.;
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Ramsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — Two letters were received from Mr. Richard Kelly, Hon. |Sec. Anti-Chinese
Gambling League, one with reference to future witnesses, and the other containing a paragraph from the
Evening News of the previous day.
Mr. Henry Joseph Maguire was further examined ; Way Shong was examined.
THURSDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P., Ramsey McKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A report and appendices were received from Mr. Sanitary Inspector Seymour,
relative to the moral and sanitary condition of the Chinese shops and dwelling-houses in Sydney.
A letter was received from the Principal Under Secretary, containing copies of a Victorian Act for
the suppression of gambling, and the police regulations in force in that Colony, with reference to the
same.
Resolved, — That the salary of Mr. G. B. Walker be £3 per week to date from his appointment, ou
the ground that the whole of his time has been and is likely to be during the existence of the Commission
fully occupied with his clerical duties in connection therewith.
Resolved, — That the attention of the Inspector- General of Police be called to the fact that public
notices announcing that fan-tan gambling is carried on day and night are affixed to a large number of
houses in George, Campbell, and Goulburn Streets, that such matters afford ample evidence of breaking
of the law, and ought to have led to prosecutions.
The following witnesses were examined : — Messrs. Benjamin Dawson and R. Bowker.
ER1DAY, 25 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
Pee SENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq , J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Ramsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — An instalment of the returns from the Inspector General of Police, asked for at
the first meeting of the Commission, were received, also further information from Mr. Richard Kelly,
Honorary Secreta^ Anti-Chinese Gambling League.
The following witnesses were examined : — Mr. G. Mathers and Long Pen.
MONDAY, 28 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
Peesent : — ■
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Ramsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A letter was received from Mr. Richard Kelly, Honorary Secretary to the Anti-
Chinese Gambling League, enclosing paragraph from the daily press for the information of the Commission.
Resolved, — That excepting in cases in which there has been a direct loss of wages resulting from
attendance before the Commission, each witness be allowed an attendance fee of half a guinea.
The examination of Long Pen was concluded.
Mr. Henry Saunders was examined.
WEDNESDAY,
9
WEDNESDAY, 30 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
PRESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A letter was received from the Inspector- General of Police, asking whether in
the opinion of the Commission its work would be interfered with if the police took strong measures for
the immediate suppression of gambling as requested by resolution of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League.
Letters were read from Mr. Nock, of Messrs. Felton and Nock, pointing out that the Government Chinese
Interpreter had been warning the keepers of Chinese gambling-houses to take down the notices announcing
that fan-tan is played within, and asking the Commission to take immediate steps for the suppression
of the gambling nuisance, now on the increase.
Both these communications were forwarded to the Inspector- General, with a strong expression of
opinion that the law should at once be set in action.
Information was supplied respecting the gaming laws in South Australia and Queensland.
The following witnesses were called : — Messrs. Joseph Ireland, Alfred Laws, Buchanan, James
Ung Quoy.
FRIDAY, 2 OCTOBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., j Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
QuoDg Tart, Esq., I John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The following witnesses were examined : — Messrs. Edward Neville, Eeading Eorder, Alfred Law,
Patrick Loudon, Sam Tin, and Tuen Tah.
TUESDAY, 6 OCTOBER, 1891.
PRESENT : —
The Mayor, Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P., | Eamsey McKillop, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The following witnesses were examined : — Messrs. T. Playf air, Henry Davis, "W. Law, and T. M.
Davis.
WEDNESDAY, 7 OCTOBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P., I Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., | John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
An anonymous letter, drawing attention to the continuance of gambling amongst the Chinese in
Lo-ner George-street, was received and forwarded for information to the Inspector-General of Police.
The following witnesses were examined : — Messrs. Eelton, E. Lee Kum, and Moy Took.
FRIDAY, 9 OCTOBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P., Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
A letter was received from Mr. E. Kelly, calling the attention of the Commission to the fact that
gambling was still proceeding in the Chinese quarters of Lower George-street, and that in consequence
of the depression in trade at that part of the city, owing to the prevalence of the evil, he had been obliged
to close his shop. He asked that the Commission would take immediate action in the matter. The
Secretary was instructed to state in reply that the Commission had already called the attention of the
Inspector-General of Police to the general facts complained of.
The following witnesses were examined :— Messrs. E. Lee Kum, Young Tow, and Moy Took.
MONDAY, 12 OCTOBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The following witnesses were examined:— Messrs. Walter Jeffery, Pow Chee, and Moy Took.
272—5 ~~ WEDNESDAY,
10
WEDNESDAY, U OCTOBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The following witnesses were examined : — Messrs. Pow Chee and Sam Sarsin
FRIDAY, 16 OCTOBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read aDd confirmed.
The following witnesses were examined :— Mr. William Loo Lisson and the Eev. Peter Le Eennetel.
MONDAY, 19 OCTOBER, 1891.
PRESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop. Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A letter was received from the Principal Under Secretary, enclosing reports to
the Inspector- General of Police with reference to the printed notices posted outside the Chinese
gambling-houses to the effect that fan-tan is carried on within.
The following witnesses were examined : — The Bev. G. W. Taylor, Messrs. David Eipp,
Swinbourne, and Ung Lin Tow.
WEDNESDAY, 21 OCTOBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A letter was received from the Principal Under Secretary, enclosing a letter
from Mr. Alfred Lawes, denying the truth of the evidence of Mr. Eorder, given before the Commission.
The following witnesses were examined : — Mr. Decker, Ex-sergeant Dawson, Ex-constable
Quealey.
FRIDAY, 23 OCTOBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A letter was received from the Principal Under Secretary, informing the
Commission that the Colonial Treasurer has been invited to cause to be placed a further sum of £500
in the Commercial Bank for the purposes of the Commission ; also a letter from the Principal Under
Secretary, transmitting police reports relating to the Chinese in the country districts.
Mr. Sibthorpe and Constable Beadman were examined.
MONDAY, 26 OCTOBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A letter was received from Mr. Eichard Kelly, Hon. Secretary, Anti-Chinese
Gambling League, describing the action he had taken and the treatment that he had received at the
hands of the police in connection with the recent Chinese gambling prosecutions at Botany, and asking
that the sum of £2 2s. for attendance on two occasions as a witness before the Commission might be
paid to him without delay. The Secretary was instructed to pay the usual attendance fee to Mr. Kelly,
"Witnesses : — Senior-constable Carson was examined and Messrs. John Quealy and Gerald
Sibthorpe were further examined.
TUESDAY,
11
TUESDAY, 27 OCTOBER, 1891.
PilESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., j Ramsey M'Killop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., I John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Witness : — Sergeant Higgins was examined.
The Secretary was instructed to draw a cheque for £9 5s. 6d. for payment of the following ten
witnesses' attendance fees, and remuneration for loss of wages : — Richard Kelly, Thomas Nock, A. M.
Chambers, E. G-. Nolan, G-. E. Bowker, Jack Armstrong, Walter Jeffery, E. Mathers, David Eipp,
E. N. E. Eorder.
Eesolved, — That the Commission upon its rising to-morrow adjourn till that day fortnight.
Witness : — Senior Sergeant Higgins.
WEDNESDAY, 28 OCTOBER, 1891.
PeESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., Eamsey M'Killop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read, and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A letter from Mr. Thos. Nock was received by Mr. M'Killop, and read to the
Commission. The letter stated that Mr. C. H. Lindemann, late of the Ropemakers' Arms, Lower George-
street, had stated to the writer in the presence of a witness that Sub-inspector Atwill had " told him that
he ought to make him a present of £100 for getting him his license." It was also stated in the letter
that the same officer had obtained, through Mr. Dawson, fruiterer, tobacco and cigars duty free from the
warships.
Witness : — Senior-constable Adair was called and examined.
WEDNESDAY, 11 NOVEMBER, 1891.
Peesent : — ■
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Eraneis Abigail, Esq., J.P., Eamsey M'Killop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read, and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A copy of the report furnished by the Inspector-General of Police regarding
the charges made by certain members of a deputation which waited on Sir Henry Parkes, of corruption
against the Police Eorce, was received.
Witnesses: — Messrs. Ah Wah (alias Eigi), Thomas Nock, Alfred Chambers, Charles Henry
Edward Lindemann.
THURSDAY, 12 NOVEMBER, 1S91.
Peesent : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Eraneis Abigail, Esq., J.P., j John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A letter was received from Mr. Thos. Nock, asking that the Commission would
in his case increase the attendance fee to £1 Is. for each attendance.
Witnesses : — Messrs. Cheang Ah Sing, Benjamin Dawson, and Senior Sergeant Macintosh.
FRIDAY, 13 NOVEMBER, 1891.
Peesent : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President,
Eraneis Abigail, Esq., J.P., j Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Witnesses:— Constables Sweeney and O'Sullivan, Senior- Constable Eae, and Detectives Keatinge
and West.
SATURDAY, 14 NOVEMBER, 1891.
PeESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Eraneis Abigail, Esq., J.P., J Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A letter was received from the Colonial Secretary stating, in answer to an appli-
cation for the extension of the Commission, that he would prefer that it should be brought to a close,
and the report furnished to date. A letter was also received from the Colonial Secretary, enclosing a
report from the Police with regard to a house occupied by Chinese at No. 56, Goulburn-street. An
anonymous letter describing the immorality practised in Chinese camps in the country was also received.
Witness : — Sub-inspector A.ttwill was examined.
" MONDAY,
12
MONDAY, 16 NOVEMBER, 1891.
PEESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Prancis Abigail, Esq., J.P., | Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Witnesses : — Ex-Police Inspector McKay and Sub-inspector Potter were examined.
TUESDAY, 17 NOVEMBER, 1891.
Peesent : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Witnesses : — Mr. Octavius Charles Beale and Inspector Lawless were examined.
WEDNESDAY, 18 NOVEMBER, 1891.
PEESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Prancis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Witnesses : — Sergeant Maguire and Mr. Anderson, Ex-inspector of Police, were examined.
THURSDAY, 19 NOVEMBER, 1891.
PEESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Eraucis Abigail, Esq , J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Ramsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Witness : — Mr. Eead, Superintendent of Police for the Metropolitan Division, was examined.
FRIDAY, 20 NOVEMBER, 1891.
Peesent : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were postponed.
Witness : — Mr. Eosbery, Inspector- General of Police for the Colony, was examined.
MONDAY, 23 NOVEMBER, 1891.
Peesent : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Prancis Abigail, Esq., J. P., \ Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., | John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A letter was received from Mr. Thomas Nock, stating that several witnesses
who could have given important evidence before the Commission had withheld the same from fear of
persecution at the hands of the police.
Eesolved, — That a communication be addressed to the Principal Under Secretary, asking him to
inform the Inspector-General of Police that the Commission has reason to believe that since it com-
menced its proceedings a very great diminution has taken place in fan-tan gambling, but that there has
been a corresponding increase in the sale of pak-ah-pu tickets, and that the Commission is of opinion
that if the Inspector-General were to detail two officers to visit the premises where the pak-ah-pu
tickets are sold, in order to harass the gamblers, indulgence in that game would be materially decreased.
Eesolved, — That on the following afternoon, at 3 o'clock, the Commission meet at the Town
Hall, and proceed thence to the premises occupied by the Chinese in George-street North, Globe-street,
Queen-street, Anson's-buildings, and Little Essex-street.
Resolved, — That on the 24th inst., at 11 o'clock in the morning, the Commission meet at the
Town Hall, and proceed to the premises occupied by Chinese, in the neighbourhood of Pitt-street
(including Pitt-place, Eobertson's-lane, Castlereagh-street, Goulburn-street, and the lanes off Goulburn-
street on each side).
Resolved, — That on the 25th instant the Commission inspect the premises occupied by Chinese in
Wexford-street, Exeter-place, Elizabeth-street, and Campbell-street.
Witness : — Mr. Eichard Seymour, Sanitary Inspector of the City of Sydney, was examined.
TUESDAY,
13
TUESDAY, £4 NOVEMBER, 1891.
PbESENT : —
Francis Aligail, Esq., J.P., in the Chair.
Eamsey McKillop, Esq., | Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The Commission proceeded to inspect the premises occupied by Messrs. On Chong and Co., Bow
Sing Tong, Sun Sam Kee, Han Kee, and Pun Num., all situated in George-street North.
WEDNESDAY, 25 NOVEMBER, 1891.
PeESENT : —
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P., in the Chair.
Eamsey McKillop, Esq., | Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The Commission proceeded to inspect the premises occupied by Chinese, in the following streets : —
Eoster-street, Stephen-street, Exeter-place, Campbell-street, Pitt-street South, Eobertson's-lane.
THURSDAY, 26 NOVEMBER, 1891.
Pbesent : —
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P., in the Chair.
Eamsey McKillop, Esq., | Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The Commission proceeded to Alexandria to inspect the premises occupied by Chinese in Eetreat-
street, where they visited nine fan-tan gambling and lottery houses, in two of which gambling was
proceeding upon their arrival. The Commission also visited the huts occupied by Chinamen at the end of
the street, and these they found in a disgraceful condition, with vegetables for sale in many cases thrown
in heaps on the floors of sleeping apartments.
FRIDAY, 27 NOVEMBER, 1891.
Peesent : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A letter was received from the Colonial Secretary, extending the Commission until
the end of the present year, with the understanding that the final report be presented within that time.
The Commission proceeded to inspect the Chinese quarters in G-oulburn-street, which they found
to be principally boarding-houses, gambling, and opium-smoking dens.
SATURDAY, 28 NOVEMBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P., | Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Witness : — Mr. Wong G-ouldtown was called and examined.
MONDAY, 30 NOVEMBER, 1891.
Pee SENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Witness ; — Mr. Wong G-ouldtown was further examined.
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
TUESDAY, 1 DECEMBER, 1891.
PEESENT : —
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P., in the Chair.
Eamsey McKillop, Esq., | Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The Commission proceeded on a visit of inspection to the Chinese Gardens at Botany.
WEDNESDAY,
14
WEDNESDAY, 2 DECEMBER, 1891.
Peesemt .• —
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., in the Chair.
Ramsey McKillop, Esq., i Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The Commission proceeded on a visit of inspection to the Chinese quarters in Oambridge^street,
Harrington-street, Queen-street, and Suez Canal.
THURSDAY, 3 DECEMBER, 1891.
PEESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P.
Ramsey McKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The Commission proceeded to inspect the premises of Sung Sung Shing, furniture-makers,
Elizabeth-street, and were subsequently present at a deputation of European cabinet-makers and
gardeners who waited upon the Mayor to complain upon the unequal terms of Chinese competition.
FRIDAY, 4 DECEMBER, 1891.
PeESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Ramsey McKillop, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The heads of the report to be presented to His Excellency the Q-overnor were discussed.
Mr. Searle, florist, was examined.
MONDAY, 7 DECEMBER, 1891.
PeESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P..
Ramsey McKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Correspondence. — A letter was read from the Inspector- General of Police stating that as soon as
practicable places which have hitherto been visited by plain-cloches constables, will in future be visited
by uniform constables.
The following witnesses were examined : — The Mayor of Botany ; Inspector of Nuisances, Botany ;
the Mayor of Alexandria ; and the Inspector of Nuisances, Alexandria.
TUESDAY, 8 DECEMBER, 1891.
Peeseitt: —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The following witnesses were examined : — Dr. Ashburton Thompson and Mr. M'Rae.
Ramsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
WEDNESDAY, 9 DECEMBER. 1891.
PeESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed
Mr. Anderson, Director of Agriculture, was examined.
Ramsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
THURSDAY, 10 DECEMBER, 1891.
PEESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The following witnesses were examined : — Hannah , Adelaide, , Nellie-
Ramsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
FRIDAY,
15
ERIDAY, 11 DECEMBER, 1891.
PbESENT: —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., Eamsey MeKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Witness Sun. Sing Loon was examined. Mr. G-. Merriman was examined.
SATURDAY, 12 DECEMBER, 1891.
Pee SENT : —
Prancis Abigail, Esq., J.P., in the Chair.
Eamsey MeKillop, Esq., J Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The'minntes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The'following witnesses were examined : — Lay Jong, Chow Kum, and Sun War Hop.
MONDAY, 14 DECEMBER, 1891.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The f ollwing witnesses were examined : — Ellen , Bella , Minnie , Pauline-
Ramsey MeKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
TUESDAJ, 15 DECEMBER, 1891.
PEESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., Eamsey MeKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The following witnesses were examined : — Hop War, Quing Young, Alderman- T. Smith, Ah
Cooey, and Sun Hing Loong.
WEDNESDAY, 16 DECEMBER, 1891.
PbESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Eamsey MeKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The following witnesses were examined: — Messrs. Kenneth M'Kenzie and Edgar Cutter.
THURSDAY, 17 DECEMBER, 1891.
PeESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., Eamsey MeKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The following witnesses were examined : — Messrs. W. A. Holman and Eichard Seymour.
Eesolved, — That the Colonial Secretary be asked to extend the time and powers of the Commission,
to enable them to visit the most notorious of the Chinese camps in the country districts.
Eesolved, — That the necessary legal steps be taken to compel the attendance of Lung Pen and
Maud as witnesses before the Commission.
FRIDAY, 18 DECEMBER, 1891.
PEESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Eamsey MeKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The heads of the report were further considered.
Lung Pen was rebuked for unseemly behaviour towards the Commission
MONDAY,
16
MONDAY, 21 DECEMBER, 1891.
PEESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Eesolved, — That a Police Court Summons be issued against Mrs. Ah Poy, alias Maud Lamb, for
neglecting to attend as a witness after receiving due notice to do so.
Witnesses : Mrs. Sims and Mr. Quong Tart were examined.
TUESDAY, 22 DECEMBER, 1891.
Peesent : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J. P., Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Eesolved, — That the attention of the Inspector- General of Police be drawn to the statement of
Mrs. Sims, matron of the Church Home, Surry Hills, to the effect that Mrs. Kelly, of 23, Stephen-street,
and Mrs. Geary, of the same neighbourhood, are keepers of notorious brothels and procuresses.
The following witnesses were examined :— Mr. Sloane, Secretary of the Gardnfer's Union ; Mr.
Daley and Mr. Keane, stevedores ; and the Lady Superior of the Good Samaritan Refuge.
WEDNESDAY, 23 DECEMBER, 1891.
Peesent : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Eesolved, — On the motion of Mr. Tart : That Mr. Gouldtown be summoned to reappear before the
Commission at 11 o'clock on the following day.
Witness : Maud was examined.
The report was further examined.
THURSDAY, 24 DECEMBER, 1891.
Peesent : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The report was further considered.
Witness : Mr. W. W. Goldtown was further examined.
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
MONDAY, 28 DECEMBER, 1891.
Peesent . —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Quong Tart, Esq., | John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were postponed.
Witness : Mr. Jack Armstrong was recalled and further examined.
TUESDAY, 29 DECEMBER, 1891.
Peesent : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P., | Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Eesolved, — That the Colonial Secretary be asked to place a further and final sum of £500 (five
hundred pounds) to the credit of the Commission.
Witness : Inspector Atwill was further examined.
WEDNESDAY, 30 DECEMBER, 1891.
Peesent : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning. J.P., President.
Erancis Abigail, Esq., J.P., | Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.,
Mr. Thomas Nock was further examined.
The Commission proceeded with the consideration of the report.
THURSDAY,
17
THURSDAY, 31 DECEMBER, 1891.
Present : —
Francis Abigail, Esq , J.P., in the Chair.
Quong Tart, Esq , | John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
"Witness : Mrs. Ah Toy was examined.
The Commission proceeded to further consider Ui3 report.
TUESDAY, 5 JANUARY, 1892.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., | Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The Commission proceeded to further consider the report.
THURSDAY, 7 JANUARY, 1892.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., | Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The Commission proceeded to further consider the report.
SATURDAY, 9 JANUARY, 1892.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., in the Chair.
Quong Tart, Esq., | John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The Commission proceeded to further consider the report.
WEDNESDAY, 13 JANUARY, 1892.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., | Quong Tart, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The Commission proceeded to further consider the report.
Eesolved, — That the sum of £10 10s. be paid to Mr. Sanitary-Inspector Seymour, for his report
on the sanitary condition of premises occupied by Chinese. That the sum of 5 guineas each be paid to
Mr. Gr. B. Walker, clerk ; Mr. W. L. Lisson, interpreter ; and Mr. A. W. Purdie, messenger, for overtime ;
and that a gratuity of 3 guineas be paid to the Mayor's orderly, for attendance on Commission.
WEDNESDAY, 20 JANUARY, 1892.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., [ Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., | John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The printed report wras read and further amended.
THURSDAY (MORNING), 21. JANUARY, 1892.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
Eeference was made to a report, appearing in the previous day's issue of the Australian Star, to
the effect that representatives of the Gardeners' Union had complained that the Commission had ignored
a request from their Secretary that members of their body should be called for the purpose of rebutting
certain evidence. The Secretary of the Commssion reported that he had received no such request.
Eesolved, — That the President, Vice-President, and the Treasurer of the Gardeners' Union be called as
witnesses this afternoon. Eesolved, — That the thanks of the Commission be voted to the Mayor and
Aldermen of the City of Sydney for the use of the room in which the meetings have been held.
272— e THURSDAY,
18
THURSDAY (AFTERNOON), 21 JANUARY, 1892.
Present : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J.P., | Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., j John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
A letter was received from Mr. Thos. Nock testifying to the respectability of Mr. Ah Toy, who
he considered had been traduced by the evidence of Mrs. Ah Toy. The letter was discussed, and the
Secretary was instructed to inform Mr. Nock that the evidence could not be omitted from the printed
records of the Commission, to which, however, his testimony would also be attached.
The Commission were informed by the Secretary that Mr. Flowers, ex-President of the Gardeners'
Union, who had been twice summoned as a witness, had refused to attend that meeting.
FRIDAY {MORNING), 22 JANUARY, 1892.
PbESENT : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J. P.,
Quong Tart, Esq.,
Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The Commissioners proceeded to examine the accounts, and provide for the payment of those
outstanding.
FRIDAY (EVENING), 22 JANUARY, 1892.
Peesent : —
The Mayor, Mr. Alderman Manning, J. P., President.
Francis Abigail, Esq., J. P., j Eamsey McKillop, Esq.,
Quong Tart, Esq., I John Stuart Hawthorne, Esq.
The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.
The following witnesses were examined : — Messrs. Sloan, Lines, Eose, and Mew, officers of the
Gardeners' Union, with regard io the statements appering in the Australian Star of Wednesday, the
20th instant, anent the action of the Commission in connection with the members of their Association,
all the statements in question being flatly denied.
The accounts were passed.
The Eeport was adopted, and signed by every member of the Commission.
W. P. MANNING,
January 22nd, 1892. President.
19
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION.
REPORT.
To His Excellency the Right Honorable Victor Albert George, Earl of
Jersey, a Member of Her Majesty's Most Honorable Privy Council,
Knight Grand Cross of the Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael
and Saint George, Governor and Commander-in-Chief of the Colony of
New South Wales and its Dependencies.
Mat it please Your Excellency, —
We, the Commissioners appointed by Your Excellency on the 20th day of
August, 1891, " to make a diligent and full inquiry with the view of ascertaining
the undoubted facts in the matter of alleged illicit gambling and immoralities
among the Chinese residents in George-street North, in the said city of Sydney, and
neighbourhood, and the alleged bribery or misconduct of any members of the Police
Eorce in relation thereto ; also to make visits of inspection to localities in the said
city and suburbs occupied by Chinese, and investigate and report upon social
conditions, means of sanitary provision in the dwellings and workshops, the callings
or occupations, and other circumstances affecting the well-being of such persons,"
have the honor to submit the following report : —
ALLEGED ILLICIT GAMBLING.
The Chinese as a community are very largely addicted to gambling. Indeed, Gambling
out of a Chinese population of about 3,500 in the City of Sydney and suburbs there f?16^*™0**
cannot be fewer than 700 individuals practically subsisting upon the proceeds of
gambling-houses ; and that number is increased if the tradesmen with shares in
gambling syndicates are taken into account. A few well-to-do storekeepers are
sleeping partners in these concerns, and gambling, as a means of livelihood, is the
common resort of the ordinary Chinaman who has failed in honest pursuits.
Two forms of gambling have been introduced by the Chinese. Each is The game of
totally different from any game of chance hitherto played in Sydney, and both are fan-ten-
frequently carried on in the same establishment. Ean-tan is played on a table with
the aid of a square sheet of metal, a cup, and a few dozen brass coins. The sides of
the square are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, and the players select the particular side
upon which they will place their stakes. The croupier then takes a handful of
counters and throws them in a heap on the table, covering a portion of them with
the cup, and after sweeping the remainder away, lifts the cover and counts the coins
that were beneath it in sets of fours, and the player whose money lies on the side of
the square corresponding to the number of coins left after the last four have been
substracted trebles his stakes. Should there be no remainder, then four becomes the
winning number. The stakes are usually small, and it is rarely that more than a
few shillings are seen on the hoard at one time. Still, as the game itself is of but
a few moments duration, and as a regular percentage of 2d. in the shilling is
deducted by the hank from the- winnings, it is possible to lose in sixpenny stakes
several pounds in the course of an evening. Then, too, larger stakes are occasionally
played for. Nothing could be simpler or more devoid of skill and absolutely a game
of chance, than fan-tan.
Pak-ah-pu
20
PaV-ah-pi'.
Principal
centres of
Chinese
gambling.
Effects of
Chinese
gambling on
the com-
munity
generally.
Pak-ali-pu is a species of lottery. For Gd. the gambler is entitled to
draw a mark through ten out of eighty Chinese characters printed on a ticket,
and the game is determined by the nunibor of characters thus obliterated corres-
ponding with mottoes subsequently drawn by the banker from a bowl containing
twenty characters selected haphazard from a total of eighty similar to those on the
ticket. Obviously, if all the tickets were effective (which is not the case, as three-
fourths are discarded as the result of the preliminary shuffle), when the bank is
drawn the odds would be eight to one against any of the mottoes marked by the client
corresponding with any of those drawn by the banker. But as a matter of fact the
laws of the game demand a correspondence in five mottoes to entitle the purchaser
to the smallest prize — Is. 2d. The prize for six successful marks is 10s. ; for seven,
£4 3s. 4d. ; for eight, £23 6s. 8d ; for nine, £11 13s. Id. ; andfor ten, £83 6s. 8d.
How remote is the possibility of winning any of the higher prizes will readily be
imagined when the tremendous odds against the purchaser of the ticket are taken
into account. In both fan-tan and pak-ah-pu there is certainly room for fraud on
the part of the bankers, but whilst it is said to be occasionally practised in moments
of desperation, as a general rule the games appear to be conducted with fairness.
Gambling is carried on extensively in the three principal centres of Chinese
population in and around the metropolis, viz. : in George-street North, in Goulburn-
street and neighbourhood, and at Alexandria. The number of gambling-houses in
each district has been variously estimated ; but it is evident that since the appointment
of your Commission there has been a marked decrease all round. The dens
in George-street North and Goulburn-sfcreet have been until very recently largely
frequented by Europeans ; those in Alexandria are almost exclusively the haunts
of Chinese. Some of these places are devoted to the sale of lottery-tickets
only. Generally, however, lottery-tickets are sold amongst a display of bogus
wares in the front shops, and fan-tan is carried on in one or more of the rooms
behind. Access to the fan-tan-rooms is gained as a rule through narrow passages,
and then only at the pleasure of sentinels, Avho, according to the apparent intentions
of the visitors, suspiciously open or double-bar the heavy doors with which ingress
is regulated. Means of escape in case of surprise are artful and manifold, often from
the same house leading into a back street, adjacent dwellings on either side, and
across rear balconies and roofs to more distant houses tenanted by accomplices. In
lletreat-street, Alexandria, however, owing probably to the fact that most of
the players there are Chinese and that there appears to be on that account less
apprehension of interruption by the police, the fan-tan tables are situated in the front
rooms, and the game carried on, as witnessed on two occasions by the Commission, in
full view of the street.
Your Commissioners do not feel justified in drawing any marked distinction
between fan-tan or pak-ah-pu and other forms of gambling. Doubtless every new
phase of vice, let it differ never so little from already existing forms, attracts some
who had hitherto withstood temptation ; and from evidence it would appear that the
presence of the fan-tan-tables in George-street North has proved an irresistible snare
to men engaged on the wharves in that part of the city, who, for the want of con-
venient opportunities, had not previously been in the habit of gambling. The families
of sailors, wharf -labourers, and coal- lumpers especially have suffered pecuniary loss —
often very serious deprivation — as a result of the risks attendant upon fan- tan ; and
similarly pak-ah-pu, involving as it does merely the purchase and marking of lottery-
tickets, the agencies for which are exceedingly numerous, has proved a means of
initiation to children, who, in the absence of this game, open to anyone with a few
pence to spare, might have been saved for many years from the temptation to
gamble. The Chinese themselves contribute by their losses to the support of the
gambling-houses, and at Alexandria a nest of at least a dozen depend chiefly on the
fleecing of hard-toiling market gardeners. It is therefore evident, even admitting
that indulgence in fan-tan and pak-ah-pu has increased incidentally with other
forms of gambling in our midst, that they are responsible for a distinct phase of the
gambling mania, and for the additional misery accruing from a new variety evolved
from a pre-existant evil. At the same time your Commission have no hesitation in
saying that what is known as Chinese gambling is trifling in every respect when
compared to the gambling practised in Sydney in consultations and betting by
totalisators, and is, as has been stated, already showing signs of diminution. It may
be
21
be added that grossly exaggerated ideas of the profits arising from fan-tan and
pak-ah-pu, when followed as a means of livcltlioDtl, seem to have prevailed amongst
members of the deputation to Sir Henry Parkes, one of whom stated that as much as
£60,000 was remitted to China in the course of a year by a gambling firm in Sydney.
Your Commissioners do not believe that so large a sum is netted annually by the
whole of the Chinese gambling firms in the city and suburbs.
THE ALLEGED IMMORALITIES OE THE CHINESE.
The alleged immoralities of the Chinese, apart from gambling, have been
considered under three heads— (1) the seduction of European girls of tender ages,
(2) promiscuous intercourse with European women, (3) opium-smoking.
With regard to the seduction of young girls, it would appear "that in years Alleged
gone by there was some ground for the charge. This much is certain (vide Report ae.d*ot™ °f
of Select Committee on Common Lodging-houses, 1876, also the evidence of Inspector Li,
Lawless, printed in the following pages) that at one time mere children were
occasionally rescued from dens of infamy kept by Chinamen ; but judging from careful
inspection, and the evidence of many witnesses thoroughly acquainted with the
domestic side of Chinese life in Sydney, there" is no ground for suspicion that our
alien population is now a danger to youthful virtue.
On the other hand, that a large number of Chinamen have habitual inter- European
course with European women has been established by the evidence of several of the^enU,ing
women themselves. _ In some instances the girls (all whom your Commission had an Chinamen.
opportunity of questioning were comparatively young) seem to be living as wives in
all but name with the men whose homes they share. Generally, however, European
women living amongst the Chinese are the common property of many Chinamen, for
whom they keep accommodation-houses in Sydney, and occasionally travel through the
various Chinese camps in the country districts. The few who live in apparent
constancy with individual Chinamen were the victims of seduction by Europeans, or
of domestic unhappiness, and have, almost without exception, .found shelter
from lives of shame in the homes of the Chinese. They are there kindly and
liberally treated. Their houses are comfortably furnished, and, apart from racial
considerations, they have some reason to be satisfied, as they say they are, with their
surroundings. The probability is that they would be on the streets of Sydney if
they were not the mistresses of industrious Chinamen. The European women who
live as prostitutes amongst the Chinese appear, in nearly every case, to have fled to
their present haunts as to refuges from the brutality of men of their own race. They
had lost caste ; they had taken to drink ; they were the drudges of larrikins who ill-
treated them; some had been in gaol; none were enjoying the protection of decent
homes. So, for the lack of better prospects, they sought the Chinamen, who at
least pay them well and treat them kindly.
Under these circumstances, if it were not for one evil incidental to their European
present condition, it would be impossible to say that these, among the most unf or- ^
tunate class of women in our midst, had not improved their surroundings by crossing habit;
the racial line. That evil, however, is of momentous consideration, and curses
nearly all the European women who associate with Chinamen. They become opium-
smokers. The girls who live with Chinamen almost as wives as well as those to whom
allusion has since been made are all more or less slaves to " the habit." Some of them
admitted in the course of their evidence consuming 3s. worth of opium per
diem ; and as they professed to be gradually weaning themselves from its use,
the obvious inference is that they had previously smoked considerably more.
The effects of the drug were written upon the faces and exhibited by demeanour of
the smokers. Their features were pinched and worn ; when their time for smoking
approached, they became restless and inclined to hysteria ; one girl brought an opium
pill to lull the craving whilst she waited her turn as a witness. Whether any of them
will abandon " the habit," it is impossible to say. Meanwhile the opium pipe beclouds
their lives. It is worthy of notice that in many instances the men with whom the
girls cohabit are not themselves opium-smokers, and cases have come before the
Commission of Chinamen taking active measures to prevent their mistresses
smoking. A large percentage of the Chinamen in Sydney, however, are addicted to
opium. The gamblers nearly all smoke, a fair proportion of market-gardeners,
and
women and
opium
22
and here and there a cabinet-maker. The merchants and haberdashery hawkers
are apparently free from the vice. Indeed, it is only fair to state that no
traces of opium were discernible about the premises of the better class of merchants
or cabinet-makers, or the dwellings of the haberdashery hawkers. One characteristic
of opium, according to the evidence, is that it deadens the craving for intoxicating
liquors. The girls all denied that loss of consciousness results from its use.
illegal trade An important feature associated with this branch of the inquiry is the
in opium. extensive retail trade in opium carried on by Chinese storekeepers and boarding-
house keepers contrary to law, and apparently without protest on the part of the
authorities.
It is only fair to state that all the witnesses questioned upon the subject
men derail concurrecl m the opinion that the Chinese are, apart from their disposition to gamble,
Wablding y a singularly peaceable and generally law-abiding section of the community. _ There
citizens. is a \ow percentage of criminality amongst them, and it is not without significance
that, owing to the exercise of private charity by the well-to-do towards the poor of
their own race, they do not depend for relief to any extent upon the benevolent
institutions of this country.
THE CHARGES* AGAINST THE POLICE.
Allegations The Commissioners regard the alleged misconduct of members of the police
Sty01106 force as the most serious question brought within the scope of their investigation.
deputation^ The allegations, made by a deputation of Members of Parliament, tradesmen
retary.alSe0" associated in an organisation known as the Anti-Chinese Gambling League,
and other gentlemen to the Colonial Secretary, Sir Henry Parkes, G.C.M.G., were
that in consequence of a wholesale system of bribery instituted by the proprietors of
Chinese gambling-houses in George-street North, the police in that division had
refrained from taking active steps for the suppression of the particular description of
gaming, carried on therein. As reported in the press some of the statements
volunteered by the deputation and the Members of Parliament who introduced them
to the Colonial Secretary were : —
The police were not content with getting a gold watch in three months, but must have diamond
rings on their fingers. It was a well-known fact that they were being paid to keep their eyes shut.
The police were bribed by the Chinese, not only by chests of tea but by gilts of money. He had
heard that for years. It would be necessary to change the policemen who had been in that quarter.
He believed that the police winked at the evil. . . The policemen were afraid to take action
because they believed that the members of the Legislative Council who owned the houses would use their
influence to have them removed from the force. Inspector At-will should carry out his duty more
fearlessly than he did.
It would be most advisable to change the police. North George-street was regarded by the police
as one of the best beats for making money.
TJnsubstan- Charges of this nature are of course always difficult of disproof. Your
dence. Commissioners began their investigation by inviting the gentlemen who had made
the charges to substantiate them. This they were unable to do. "Without exception
they had based their statements upon mere suspicion, or upon allegations that had
come to them second-hand. "Week after week the Commission followed such
clues as the members of the Anti- Chinese Gambling League and others interested
in the crusade against the Chinese gambling-houses were able to furnish. Eor the
most part the evidence was hopelessly general. Occasionally, however, a definite
statement setting forth the name of an accused police officer, and, to the best of the
witness's belief, the exact facts of some doubtful transactions were evoked ; but
the result was that the charges broke down generally under the examination of
witnesses suggested by the accusers themselves. One way and another the charges
of bribery did break down ; and this your Commissioners were unanimously agreed
before the case against the police was concluded. Indeed, so far as the more serious
allegations made by the deputation to the Colonial Secretary were concerned, the
witnesses against the police had so utterly failed to establish their case that the
police were examined, and severely cross-examined, on the charges of bribery with
a view to seeing if, by any chance, they would implicate themselves ; and that they
certainly did not.
Specific Specific charges were made by witnesses before your Commission against
agamsTindi- Inspector Atwill, ex-Sergeant Dawson, and Senior-constable Adair. Suspicion was
viduai officers, attached especially to Sergeant Higgins, Senior-constable Beadman, Senior-constable
Carson, and ex-Constable Quealy. Allegations of bribery and neglect of duty were
levelled against the police generally at the No. 4 Station. Pour
23
Pouf distinct charges (one only however having reference to the Chinese) ^h^e
affected the probity of Inspector Atwill. It was stated that after the appointment of inspector
the Commission this officer had obtained from Mr. Ah Toy, a cabinet-maker in Lower ^jj case
George-street, a receipt for a book-case furnished to him by Ah Toy twelve months obtained*8'
previously, the inference drawn by the witnesses who made the statement, being that from Ah T°y-
Inspector Atwill had received the article as a bribe or present, and feeling uneasy about
the matter, in view of the appointment of your Commission, had attempted to vindi-
cate himself by obtaining a receipt with a view to showing that he had made the pur-
chase in the customary way, The most important consideration in connection with
this circumstance is the fact that Mr. Ah Toy is as far as your Commission could learn,
in no way connected with any gambling-establishment, and therefore would have no
apparent object in bribing Inspector Atwill to relax his activity in the suppression of
gaming. Apart from that there is the emphatic denial of the cabinet-maker, who states
the exact amount paid by the inspector on the bargain, the testimony of Mrs. Ah Toy,
a European woman, and of course the corroborative evidence of Mr. Atwill himself.
It is admitted, however, that the account was receipted long after the delivery of
the book-case, but that is explained by the inspector who says (questions 11040,
11041, and 11042), that he had repeatedly asked for it, and that after the deputation
to the Colonial Secretary, he was determined to have it in common with receipts for
anything else purchased by him from the Chinese, not, in the opinion of your Com-
mission, by any means a singular determination on the part of an upright man in
Mr. Atwill's position.
The other charges against this officer were (1) that he had demanded a-Sealleged
present of £100 from a publican; (2) that he had said to a photographer that he0th^rn SUp°n
ought to supply him gratuitously with portraits of himself and his family ; and tradesmen,
that other tradesmen in the district should furnish them freely with various
descriptions of goods' in consideration of the protection that he afforded them ; (3)
that he induced a shopkeeper to smuggle ashore for his (Mr. Atwill's) personal And a gift of
use a quantity of tobacco and cigars. Not only were all these charges denied by tobacco-
the accused, but the story of his demand upon the publican was rendered absurd by
the fact that he had, as your Commission thinks, in the proper exercise of
his duty, been the means of depriving him of one license, and had strenuously
opposed his application for another ; the statement of the photographer was, in the
opinion of the Commission, too trivial and altogether improbable to warrant serious
consideration, and the remaining incident was explained by Mr. Atwill, who said
that he did not ask for the tobacco and cigars, but that a small quantity of black
" plug" tobacco only — nothing like half-a-pound in weigh!: — was left at the police
station for him by the individual in question, that he " could not smoke stuff like
that, and it lay on his mantlepiece until it was as dry as chips." The conversation
resulting in this incident is thus described by the officer —
I saw Dawson either in the street or at Bis own door. Dawson said to me, " You smote, Mr.
Atwill ?" and I answered, "Yes ; " and he then said, " I will get you a bit of good tobacco. I sometimes
get a good bit on the ships." " Very well," I said ; and that was all that transpired. A considerable
time after that he left a small piece of tobacco "; &c.
Dawson's version differs from this in two particulars. He states that the inspector
asked him to obtain both tobacco and cigars ; that the request was made in return
for a slight favour conferred upon him by the inspector, and that he subsequently
delivered twenty-five cigars and 1^ pound of tobacco to the lock-up keeper with
the remark, " There is a bit of tobacco and some cigars for Mr. Atwill when he
comes in." The lock-up keeper swears positively that he has no recollection of the
circumstance, and that to the best of his belief it did not occur. Your Commissioners,
after carefully weighing the evidence on either side, accept the statement of Mr.
Atwill and his subordinate.
Ex-Sergeant Dawson was charged with improperly obtaining the sum of £20 The charge
from Mr. Way Kee, a wealthy Chinese merchant. The facts appear to be these. Sergeant
Dawson, who retired from the police force some years ago, owns land at North Dawson.
Shore, and Way Kee at one time leased a portion of it as a vegetable garden at a
yearly rental of £30. In this case, as in that of the piece of furniture which
Inspector Atwill was said to have obtained without payment from Ah Toy, the
Chinaman involved in the transaction is acquitted on all hands of complicity in any
description of gambling. It is also worthy of note that according to the evidence
of Mr. H. J. Maguire, upon whose authority the statement was made, the transac-
tion took place as far back as ten years ago. (Q. 2379.) The
24
The charge
against
Sen.-constable
Adair.
The charge
against
Sergeant
Higgins and
ex-Constable
Quealey.
Tlie charge
against
Senior-
constables
Beadmau and
Carson.
All the
charges of
bribery
emphatically
discredited.
Alleged
inactivity of
the police.
The imputation against Senior- Constable Adair was (Q. 3369, &c), that
when in the execution of his duty he misappropriated the money found on
the tables of the gambling-houses. This statement in the definite form in which
it was eventually made was obtained under great pressure from a witness who
certainly entertained no malice against the constable ; and was apparently a
conclusion at which he bad unwillingly arrived through a partial knowledge of the
circumstances. The charge relates to events that happened (Q. 3395) six years ago.
It appears that one of the duties of the police upon entering a gambling-house in
the course of a raid is to secure all money and valuables on the table and hand them
over at a convenient opportunity to the Inspector of the district. This is what Senior-
constable Adair admits having done on more than one occasion, and the witness from
whom the story emanated having seen him lay hands on money and transfer it to
his pocket and being ignorant of the subsequent procedure, for some unaccountable
reason (for he spoke in the highest terms of Adair's general behaviour) came to the
conclusion that he was fraudulently handling the coin.
The suspicion attached by various witnesses to Sergeant Higgins and ex-Con-
stable Quealey seems to have arisen purely from the belief that they were possessed
of more property than, in the opinion of the persons who aspersed them, members of
the police force could honestly acquire ; and further, exaggerated impressions
were evidently entertained of the extent of their possessions. The wealth of
the former consists of land and houses ; and how, by dint of extraordinary
thrift and industry, he became possessed of them was clearly attested by many
highly respectable witnesses. Quealey, who, at the time of his examination, kept a
public-house, fixes (Q. 8652) the value of his property upon leaving the force at a
maximum below £400, £180 of which, according to his statement, he possessed
upon joining the force, and the remainder of which he accumulated as the result of
his savings during six years' police service. Having regard to a statement of the
Inspector-General to the effect that an unmarried constable should be able to save
£60 a year, your Commission see no grounds for doubting the truth of Quealey's
explanation.
Senior-constable Beadman became an object of suspicion by reason of the
jewellery he wore, the whole of which he satisfactorily accounted for, and some
of which he obtained in public recognition of the value of his services as a policeman,
and for the display of bravery in saving human life. Beadman was also charged, in
common with his mate, Senior-constable Carson, with undue familiarity with the
proprietors of the Chinese gambling-houses ; but, as these men are plain clothes
officers, and as such are obliged, in pursuance of their duty, to associate with
disreputable characters, the aspersion really amounts to nothing.
With reference to the charges of bribery generally, your Commissioners would in
in conclusion state one consideration that renders the truth of them all extremely
improbable. No beat is under the exclusive care of any individual constable. On the
contrary,not only are officers relieved from duty at stated intervals by other officers,but
they are frequently shifted from one part of the district to another ; so that for bribery
to be effectual it would have to be, to a large extent, general, and that amongst so
numerous a body of men, who surely include a percentage of honest individuals, is
practically out of the question. Thus, after the most searching inquiry, after
plying witnesses with questions often verging in their bias upon unfairness to the
police, your Commissioners emphatically discredit the charges of bribery.
Beyond this the police have been charged with maintaining an attitude of
culpable inactivity towards Chinese gambling ; and to that has been added the
imputation that their leniency is due to fear of applying the law to the occupants of
houses owned by wealthy and influential persons. In dealing with this phase of the
subject the Commission cannot but recall the complaints made by certain persons
against the police under Inspector Atwill for alleged unnecessary interference with
the licensees of hotels. Now, hotels are in common- with other descriptions of pro-
perty, owned by wealthy and influential men, and that the police should proceed
fearlessly against publicans, despite prejudicial consequences to landlords, and yet
for. the reason alleged refrain from discharging their duty in the suppression of
Chinese gambling, is altogether beyond credence. Your Commission, therefore,
reject the imputation with which the charge of inactivity has been coupled.
On
25
On the other hand, after regarding the matter in all its bearings, overlooking More active
neither the absence of serious moral incentive to deal with an insignificant portion Z^Z™1-
oi a iar-spreading evil nor the defective state of the law by which action is impeded, sionofgaming
they are bound to say that in their opinion the police might, though at some incon- Amount'
venience, have taken more active measures for the suppression of gambling in the of energy
Chinese quarters of George-street North, Goulburn-street, and Alexandria. To that SS a
extent, then your Commissioners consider that the conduct of the police is open to opinion.
criticism. The significance of their finding upon this point may be elaborated thus :
Granted that the police are unable to proceed against the gamblers without warrant ;
.that thewarrants are exceedingly difficult of execution, and are frequently rendered
inoperative by the wariness of the gaming-housekeepers (the reason no doubt why
raids have not been much more frequent), the Commission are still of opinion that
if visits to the gambling-houses had been paid two or three times in the course of an
evening by constables on patrol the effect would have been harassing to the players,
and therefore salutary. At the same time, it is quite possible that the frequency of
visits from constables who would not on these occasions be armed with authority to
enter, and who would thus be liable to ejection, would eventually defeat its own end.
As a matter of fact, it was stated in evidence that some years ago, when the
fan-tan-rooms were much easier of access than at present, raids, unauthorised by
warrant, were made, occasionally several times in the course of an evening, and
invariably with the result that the gamblers re-assembled as soon as the police had
turned their backs. True, Mr. Anderson, who formerly held the position of
Inspector-in- charge of No. 4 District, stated that by a system of constant visitation
he held the gambling in check ; but that, it must be remembered, was fifteen years
ago, long before the gambling mania had assumed its present proportions, or the
Chinese were as clever in evading the law, and, consequently, when a much smaller
force would be capable of dealing with the gambling-houses. All things considered,
therefore, whilst it is thought that the police might with advantage have demon-
strated greater activity, it is by no means certain that they could have done so
without subordinating the public interest in other directions, and the measure of
energy expedient in the suppression of Chinese gambling becomes, therefore, to some
extent, a matter of opinion. Upon this point the evidence of the Inspector-General
is important. He said (Q. 12062) : —
"We have a limited number of police, and every now and then public attention is awakened to some
particular social evil. It may be gambling on the turf, or street disorder by larrikins, or prostitution, or
suburban house robberies, or a variety of other things ; and then the newspapers and the public say,
" Why don't the police do more." People forget, however, that the police have their regular routine of
duty to perform, and that whilst it is possible to afEord a very large increase in the number of men
engaged in any particular work, that can only be effected by taking them away from other duties, and,
therefore, whilst it would not be correct for me to say that there might not have been a great deal more
vigour displayed in stamping out Chinese gambling, or any other species of criminality which it is the
duty of the police to suppress, it should not be forgotten that generally if you focus the strength of the
force in one direction you deprive it of corresponding strength in another.
It has been already inferred that the existing law is, in the opinion, of your Amendment
Commissioners, inadequate for the purpose of coping with Chinese gambling. In °f galling
fan- tan prosecutions the evidence of a person who has witnessed the game is of mended,
course essential. But in order to obtain such evidence it is necessary in the first
place to procure a warrant empowering the police to enter suspected premises, and
in the second place to choose a suitable time for its execution. This entails a degree
of watchfulness on the part of the authorities that is always apt to forewarn the
gamblers; and thus it happens that the most careful preparations are often
frustrated at the last moment. Under any circumstances, too, where the means of
protection, and escape in the event of surprise are so great, it is an exceedingly
difficult thing to effect an entrance for the purpose of obtaining the necessary proof.
If, however, the raid be successful, whilst the principals are detained in custody,
their clients must be liberated, and subsequently summoned to appear in Court.
With the object of simplifying the process, and strengthening the hands of the
authorities in dealing with fan-tan, your Commission would suggest certain amend-
ments in the law. They would recommend, especially with a view to the suppression
of the game of fan-tan : — (1) That senior- constables and non-commissioned officers
should, without first procuring a magistrate's warrant, have the -power of entering
any house suspected of being a public gambling resort ; (2) that persons found on
premises where gambling is in progress should be liable to arrest and summary
212— d conviction;
26
conviction ; (3) that where gambling implements are found on suspected premises
the occupant should thereby be rendered liable to prosecution, and the onus of proof
cast upon the accused. With regard to proceedings against the proprietors of
lotteries, under the law as it stands it is necessary not only to see the tickets
marked, but also to witness the bank drawn, an almost impossible undertaking for
the police, the rooms used as banks being generally the most inaccessible in the
buildings, and then the authorities are enabled to proceed against the principals
only. Your Commission would recommend that in this case the law should be so
amended as to render the mere sale and purchase of pak-ah-pu tickets a mis-
demeanor. The tickets are imported from China in bales, and being specially
adapted for this description of lottery, there could hardly be any mistake touching
the purpose for which they are sold. It would also be well, if, as provided in the
New Zealand law, the existence of barricades against inspection by the police of
houses suspected as public gambling resorts was made an offence.
Insanitary
premises.
VISITS OP INSPECTION.
The Commission visited the various centres of Chinese population in and
around the metropolis. In the course of these tours they inspected the premises of
merchants and storekeepers, cabinet-makers, and market-gardeners, private houses
occupied by Chinamen, gambling-dens, opium-dens, and brothels. As a rule the
places were clean — clean, that is, as far as it was in the power of the occupants to
keep them clean ; but a large number of the houses inhabited by Chinamen are
amongst the worst-conditioned of tenements. To two rows of houses (Nos. 1, 2, 3,
and 4, 11, 12, 13, and 14), in Queen's-place to the whole of the dwelling-houses
in the Suez Canal, to Nos. 50 and 52, Goulburn-street, and especially to a
cluster of wretched huts at the rear of Eetreat-street, Alexandria, referred to
at length in the valuable evidence of Dr. Ashburton Thompson, attention is
directed. The huts at Alexandria would disgrace the suburbs of any city in the
world. In all these cases, as Dr. Thompson pointed out, the blame rests chiefly,
not with the Chinese occupants but with the owners of the property, and with the
municipal officers. The most serious fault to be found with the Chinese on the
score of insanitation arises principally from their tendency to overcrowd, and their
extreme antipathy to ventilation. They sleep in bunks ranged round the bed-rooms,
and sometimes one above the other ; six or eight men often occupying apartments
which, even if well ventilated, would not afford healthful accommodation for more
than one or two persons. In the city they further economise space by roofing-in the
yards and thus converting them into kitchens. In several instances sinks and
water-closets have been enclosed with every foot of available ground, and it is no un-
common thing to find the cook preparing food for the table in disgusting proximity
to an open privy. The by-laws of the various municipalities provide safe-guards for
uncleanliness, though it does not appear that in Alexandria they have been enforced
with sufficient rigour ; but for the prevention of overcrowding and the convertion of
back yards into covered apartments there is no law. The Commission learn, however,
with satisfaction, that as far as the city of Sydney is concerned, these matters have
already received attention at the hands of the Municipal Council, who intend
immediately to submit to Parliament a Bill giving enlarged powers to their sanitary
officers. A Common Lodging House Act would, in the opinion of your Com-
missioners, also lead to an improvement in the conditions under which the Chinese live.
Several witnesses complained of a decrease during recent years in the retail
business in George-street North, and alleged further that this was due to the number
>orge". street of Chinese gambling-dens in the neighbourhood, women avoiding that portion of the
North. main street for fear of molestation, and foot passengers generally preferring Pitt-
street as a cleaner and pleasanter approach to the Circular Quay. Your Commis-
sioners recognise the fact that there has been a falling off in the retail trade of
George-street North, but that they attribute principally to the growing importance
of the northern suburbs, the diversion of traffic by means of the tram to the eastern
side of the Quay, and the removal of the A.S.N. Co.'s premises to a distant part of
the town. Whether rents in Lower George-street have decreased accordingly is
a matter of opinion.
CALLINGS
Decrease in
the retail
trade of
27
CALLINGS AND OCCUPATIONS OP THE CHINESE.
The Chinese around Sydney follow the occupation of merchants, storekeepers,
cabinet-makers, market- gardeners, hawkers, and gamblers. It is only in cabinet-
making and vegetable-growing, however, that they come into serious competition
with European tradesmen. Of the merchants and storekeepers your Commission
need only say that they are on the whole well-conducted residents. They trade
principally with their own people whom they supply with tea, rice, opium, and
the more distinctly national commodities of their race, and in their own lives
they realise to a very large extent the European idea of comfort.
There are in the immediate vicinity of the metropolis Chinese cabinet factories The furniture
large and smell employing over 400 hands. How far the presence of so much cheap ^°g in-
labour in the furniture industry has militated against the success of Australian manu-
facturers or tended to lower the wage-rate of Australian workmen it would be difficult
to estimate. That it has kept Europeans out of the field there can be no doubt what-
ever. " But in considering the extent to which the local European trade has been
affected by the Chinese factories, cheap imported furniture becomes a disturbing factor.
Erom evidence it would appear that whilst nearly one half of the cheap furniture sold
in Sydney is turned out of the Chinamen's shops, a similar proportion is imported.
The Chinese do not, according to the evidence, affect the manufacture of first-class
furniture. Their influence upon the market is therefore limited to goods of
second and third-rate quality, and chiefly to the commonest articles sold in
the various city auction-rooms. Most of the large furnishing houses, however,
are in the habit of purchasing the superior kinds of Chinese-made furniture and selling
it as of European manufacture ; and it is to guard against this deception that the com-
pulsory stamping of all goods turned out of the Chinese cabinet factories has so often
been urged by Australian mechanics. Your Commission approve of the suggestion
which they consider, under the circumstances, to be most reasonable, and a protection
alike to workman and customer — for it must be assumed that our own people, as a
rule, would give the preference in effecting a purchase to a European-made article.
Meanwhile, it is gratifying to learn that although the Chinese workshops continue
to increase, the aggregate number of Chinese employees has a downward tendency ; and,
further, that with the stoppage of Chinese immigration and the lapsing of indentures
under which new arrivals were compelled to work for a certain period at excessively
low rates, the remuneration of men in the Chinese factories has advanced until at
the present time, bearing in mind that the Chinese are comparatively slow workers, it
is not greatly below the local European standard for the same class of work. In
other words, whilst the average European wage is something like £2 10s. per week,
the Chinamen receive from 20s, to 30s. per week, in addition to board and lodging.
Simultaneously with the improvement of wages and the tendency to retrogression
in the cabinet-making industry amongst the Chinese, there has been a corresponding
advance in the local European trade. This is obviously attributable to the cessation
of Chinese immigration, as a- result of the Chinese Restriction Act, and it is
anticipated by those most seriously affected that the compulsory stamping of
Chinese-made goods would further tend to place the Australian workman on a
fair level with his Chinese competitor. It may be added, that the Chinese mechanics
are generally lodged and fed on the premises. They sleep in dormitories boarded
off from the workshops. Their food would appear to be more liberal in kind
and quantity than is generally supposed. It consists of three meals a day — chiefly
of pork, fish, rice, cabbage, and tea, with poultry, and Chinese liqueurs as a rule on
Sundays. They work longer hours than Europeans engaged in the same trade —
generally from half past five in the morning to half past six at night with half
an hour for breakfast and dinner respectively.
In the cultivation of vegetables the Chinese are practically masters of the Chinese mar-
situation. Indeed they have at the present time, around Sydney, comparatively few J^^fSfert
competitors. It is apparently their custom to form themselves into syndicates of tteir com-
for the leasing and working of suitable land, in some instances in an uncultivated ^^J1*11
state at the time they enter into possession. By dint of skill and industry
they prepare it for planting, and in less than six months cart the first vegetables
to market. Almost from the 'outset the enterprise becomes a source of
remuneration, and it is no uncommon thing for each partner, after paying
expenses,
28
Methods of
cultivation
employed by
the Chinese.
expenses, to put by £50 or £60 a year as his share of the profits. That, however, is
a result of more than ordinary skill and reasonable industry. It is due to extreme
frugality and unremitting toil. With the exception of an extra hour or two for
rest on "a Saturday afternoon, and a fairly well observed holiday on Sundays, the
whole of their waking moments appear to be occupied with work in their gardens.
Their meals are extremely simple ; but here, again, it is perhaps as well to guard
against the idea that a working Chinaman lives on the verge of starvation. Like
most people he appreciates a full meal ; and if European luxuries are conspicuous by
their absence, he has nevertheless his periods of sober feasting. Touching the possi-
bility of European competition in market-gardening, the evidence of one witness
is instructive. Mr. Alderman Smith, a market- gardener at Botany, was asked : —
15644. Do you find it (market-gardening) a profitable business ? He replied, Tes ; I have done so since
I have taken it in hand, and I have been at gardening thirty-four years and a half.
15644. Have you found any difficulty arising from the keen competition of Chinese vegetable growers ?
Slightly ; not to any considerable extent.
15645. You have not had much cause to complain ? No, not as yet.
15649. Have you known many vegetable gardens to be given up by Europeans because they could not
make them pay ? No ; but I have known them to sell out to Chinese for the purpose of making a profit.
15650. Not because they could not work them ? No ; merely as a matter of profit to themselves. I
might have sold out to profit myself, because I was offered the opportunity, but I would not accept it.
1565 L. Tou could make it pay? Tes. At the same time I have no occasion to work now. I have suffi-
cient now. I do not say that it is altogether the ground that has produced my independence. It is other
things : but I could have gained sufficient from that.
15652. So far as you are concerned your garden has proved profitable, and you can work it profitably now ?
Tes.
"With regard to the methods of cultivation employed by the Chinese, your
Commissioners availed themselves of the opinion of Mr. C. L. Anderson, Director of
Agriculture, and that gentleman contributed instructive information upon one or two
questions about which the popular mind is more or less perplexed. Your Com-
missioners, aware that Chinese gardeners applied human excrement and urine exten-
sively to growing vegetables, asked him particularly whether the objections often
urged against the practice had more than a sentimental basis. His answer was
explicit : He said :
Chemistry makes no distinction between elements in a manure, such as nitrogen or potash or
phosphoric acid, whether they are in the form of cow dung or, to speak quite plainly, of man's dung.
They are all the same to a chemist. I saw it stated in a newspaper a little while ago, for example, that
the Chinese saturate their vegetables with ammonia, and that that caused typhoid fever. Now, ammonia
can no more cause typhoid fever than it can cause any other disease that is the result of a germ ; but if,
on the other hand, vegetables were doused with matter containing that germ, of course it is within the
bounds of possibility that typhoid fever might be spread that way. The danger in that case would be
with those quick-growing vegetables that are speedily produced and eaten without being cooked.
Dr. Ashburton Thomson expressed a similar opinion. Both gentlemen, however,
condemned the practice of storing vegetables in sleeping or jiving apartments,
a practice to which in spite of the frequent warnings of Mr. Sanitary Inspector
Seymour the Chinese are still prone. Mr. Anderson pointed out that apart altogether
from the possibility of vegetables becoming in this way the means of conveying
contagious diseases their value as a food, when faded, was much deteriorated.
Chinese
secret
societies.
In the course of their inquiries your Commission gleaned a considerable
amount of information about various Chinese secret societies. Their reason for
devoting special attention to the subject was the allegation that it has been through
the medium of these institutions that the improper transactions had been effected
between the keepers of Chinese gambling-houses and members of the police force.
They find that societies do exist very generally among Chinese immigrants in all
parts of the Colony. At no time, however, as far as they have been able to ascertain,
has there been more than one secret society (the Loon Ye Tong) whose objects were
illegal ; and that society appears to have consisted principally of gamblers, and to
have devoted its funds very largely to defraying the legal expenses occurred in their
defence when prosecuted, and the penalties in the event of conviction, thus belying
the imputation of bribery by the fact that the activity of the police was the principal
reason for its existence. The Loon Ye Tong, however, two years ago fell a victim to
internal strife, and there are no signs of its reorganisation. The remaining societies
are benevolent institutions, formed on a basis of " cousinship," and displaying their
charity in the transport of old men and the bones of their deceased countrymen to
China. Your
29
Your Commission regret that their powers were in the first place confined to
the City of Sydney and suburbs, and that their request for power to visit certain
country districts where the Chinese camps are reputed to be a serious evil was not
acceded to.
SUMMARY OP RECOMMENDATIONS.*
For the Suppression of Gambling.
1. That Non-commissioned Officers and Senior-constables be empowered without
procuring a Magistrate's warrant to enter any house suspected of being a
public gambling resort.
2. That persons found on premises where gambling is in progress should be
liable to arrest and summary conviction.
3. That where gambling implements are found on suspected premises, the
occupant should thereby be rendered liable to prosecution, and the onus
of proof cast upon the accused of his being there for a lawful purpose.
4. That the sale and purchase of pak-ah-pu tickets be made a misdemeanor.
5. That, in houses suspected as public gambling resorts, the existence of
barricades against police inspection be declared unlawful.
6. That the police should, by the frequent visitation of gaming-houses, in
addition to organised raids, harass those who make a living by gambling,
or who gamble for amusement, as much as possible, without neglecting
their duty in other directions.
For the Suppression of Opium Smoking.
A stricter enforcement of the law relating to the sale and distribution of opium.
For Improvement in the Sanitary Condition of Chinese Residences.
1. A Common Lodging House Act, compelling the keepers of lodging-houses
of all descriptions to provide adequate accommodation (cubic space, venti-
lation, water-closets, &c,).
2. That Parliament should give its favourable consideration to the new Bill for
the better government of the City of Sydney, now in course of preparation
by the City Council.
For the better Regulation of the Furniture Trade.
The stamping of all Chinese-made articles of furniture.
We have the honor to be,
Your Excellency's most obedient Servants,
W. P. MANNING,
President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL,
Vice-President.
RA.MSAY McKILLOP.
J. STUART HAWTHORNE.
QUONG TART.
Dated Sydney, the 22nd day of January, 1892.
* Your Commission, aware of the extent of gambling by means of consultations and totalizators, also of the necessity
for a Common Lodging-house Bill, recognise that several of these recommendations apply with equal force to European as
to Chinese gambling-establishments and lodging-houses.
272— e
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
THURSDAY, 3 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
^r£0£nt: —
The Mayor of Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbesident.
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QTTONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
George Black, Esq., M.P., examined : —
Witness said: It will perhaps be well if I preface any questions from the Commission by a short state- G-. Black,
ment. In the first place I am not a resident of George-street North, and any facts that I brought before Esq., M.P.
the notice of the Colonial Secretary and the public have been chiefly gathered from respectable citizens oCVT^,
residing in George-street North, whose names I will furnish to the Commission. They are almost all, SePt-' 189 ■
without exception, shop-keepers or shop-employees in that locality, and many of them have known the
neighbourhood for a very long time. ' To begin with, there are Mr. Eelton and Mr. Nock, of Messrs.
Eelton and Nock, ironmongers ; then there is Mr. Buchanan, who keeps the Fortune o' War Hotel ; Mr.
Armstrong, a tobacconist in Lower George-street, who is Chairman of the Anti-Chinese Gambling
League; Mr. Swinburn, boot-maker; Mr. Kelly, grocer; Mr. Lilja, outfitter; Mr. Christensen, of the
Eish and Oyster Saloon ; Mr. Dawson, fruiterer ; Mr. Tucker, butcher ; Mr. Chazel, hairdresser ; Mr.
Reardon, bootmaker ; Mr. Chambers, accountant to Messrs. Eelton and Nock ; and Mr. Nolan, salesman
with the same firm ; Mr. Boker, carpenter, Cumberland- street, near Essex-street.
1. Mr. Abigail.'] All the previous names are those of men in business in George- street, are they ? Tes.
Then a van man named David Rip gave me some information. I do not know where be lives, but he
stands on the Circular Quay with his van for hire. The information that I obtained from those sources
was first that the value of businesses was being impaired by the behaviour of the Chinese in Lower
George-street, not only from the fact that their houses were filthy, and that the smell from them was
foul, that they were seriously over crowded, that gambling was carried on at all hours of the day' and
night, that there was almost continuous opium-smoking, and that the houses were used as assignation
houses and places to decoy young persons of both sexes, but that the Chinese residents openly solicited
the entrance of men and women passing by. The consequence being that citizens who had been in the
habit of going down Lower George-street to the ferry boats had gradually deserted that thoroughfare,
and now made their exit from the city down Pitt-street. Then the next point was that the Chinese were
gradually ousting the white people who had been shop-keepers in Lower George-street from that part of
the town. As soon as a white shop keeper's lease fell in, his landlord would get rid of him, and let the
shop to a Chinese tenant, because the Chinese were able, by reason of their illegitimate trade, to offer not
only a much higher rent, but in many cases to add a large bonus for the sake of getting possession of the
premises. A white man who had been in a shop for years, paying perhaps £2 10s. or £3 10s. a week
rental was told that if he wished to remain he would have to pay £6, £7, or £8 a week, and in addition
to that, in order to compete with the Chinese, to pay a bonus of £100, or perhaps £150 for the renewal
of the lease. That was the second complaint : that the white residents of Lower George-street were being
crowded out by the Chinese because they, doing a legitimate business, could not compete with the
Mongolians, who were making very much larger profits out of an illegitimate business. Then they
charged the police with knowing that the gambling was going on, not only all night but all hours of the
day ; that Chinese lottery tickets were being sold, from morning till night, and that games of fan-tan
were played whenever sufficient persons could be got together to make it worth the while of the bank to
enter upon Ihe game. They pointed out to me that there was no necessity to organise raids upon these
places, but that the police ought to simply walk in at any hour in order to catch them "in the act. The
shop-keepers to whom I allude first called upon me in the form of a deputation, and proposed that I
should introduce a Bill into the Legislative Assembly for the purpose of dealing with Chinese gambling,
overcrowded and filthy premises, and the molestation of persons passing down the street. I told them
that I did not think it necessary that the law as it stood was comprehensive enough to stop all those
practices, if it was only put into force, and I advised them to interview the Premier and place the facts
before him. That wasdone on the 30th July, when about a dozen gentlemen, including the four
Members of Parliament for West Sydney, waited upon him. The deputation gave him all the facts that
I have o-iven to you, and a good many more besides. The statement made upon that occasion was this : —
That the police had neglected to enforce the law — not because they could not obtain evidence of the
gambling going on within the Chinese shops, or of the filth and overcrowding — but because they were
on the one side habitually bribed by the Chinese, and, on the other, frightened of arousing the resentment
of those who owned the premises. Thus, those who did not fail in their duty because they were bribed,
did fail in it because they were afraid. It was actually asserted that there is amongst the police a sus-
tentation fund, towards which every man who keeps a gambling-house subscribes so much a week for the
purpose of obtaining immunities from police interference. Ex-Constable Quealy, I was informed, not
directly by David Rip, but through a gentleman who had an interview with David Rip, withdrew, I think
it
272— A
2
CHINESE GAMBLING COilJIISSIOX — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
S' BMCp ** WaS £670> ^r0m tlie kank at Miller's Point, after being in the force, I believe, only seven years, and
Esq.,M. . havjng during that time became notorious for his want of sobriety, and being, therefore, probably, not a
a'st"" 1891 very thrifty man. Constable Beadman, upon his own admission, has £4G0 in the bank. He said to Mr.
"' " Armstrong, " I suppose this Chinese Commission will think that because I have £460 in the bank I have
also been bribed by the Chinamen, but I won it at horse-racing;." He made that statement in consequence
of a conversation he was having with Mr. Armstrong about Ex-Constable Quealy. It was pointed out
to him that Quealy was likely to be charged with having received this money in the form of bribes, and
then it was that he said, " I suppose that they will charge me, &c." _
2. President.'] Who is Mr. Armstrong ? A tobacconist in Lower George-street. On one occasion Con-
stables Carson and Beadman wore diamond pins and rings, standing outside the premises of, I think,
Mr. Nock— at all events, I got the information from Mr. Nock, Mr. Kelly, and Mr. Buchanan— and
twiddled the rings on their fingers, as much as to say, " we have got the diamonds, and we mean to keep
on getting them in spite of you." But it seems that they had become afraid since the Commission was
formed, because they have put these rings and pins out of sight ; so that if they did not obtain them in
the manner insinuated, they were, at all events afraid, lest it should be thought that they had
3. Mr. Abigail.] Do I understand that this statement is not the result of your own observation?
Exactly. 1 know nothing of these Chinese habitations except by going up and down the street and
seeing these filthy places, or people always standing outside, and the same goods in the windows from
one week's end to the other. They are apparently there for sale, but as a matter ol tact they are only
there for the purpose of hiding the real nature of the business done inside. In one shop 1 have seen the
same duck in the window— at least, from the amount of fly-dirt upon it I should say it is the same, though
it may be a canvas duck — for two years. , ,
4. President.] This statement of yours, then, is based entirely upon hearsay t Xes; upon what has
been told me by the people I have named. There are one or two other little points. The residents down
there do not charge the Chinese with simply beggaring the people who are foolish enough to gamble with
them, but they are actually in business as pawnbrokers. When a person has lost all his money to them
they are prepared to lend him money on his watch and chain, or any other article oi value, tie can have
it back again if he is prepared to redeem it within a certain time ; otherwise, they keep it altogether. It
is also said that the Chinamen do not keep the houses in George-street North so much as they did, tor
prostitution, but that they have hired places in the back streets where they keep prostitutes, not only tor
their own convenience, but also for the use of their customers. Of course, when I made this statement
before Sir Henry Parkes, I distinctly said that it was merely a matter of common report, but the news-
papers at the time made it appear as though it was a statement of facts that had_ come under my own
observation. As a matter of fact, I made the statement then precisely as I make it now.
5. Mr. Abigail] It is reported that you said, " It is a well-known fact that the police have received these
presents " ? That is putting it rather too strongly. , .
6. President.] Did you take any trouble to substantiate the facts ? Yes ; I made inquiries from one and
another, and I was told so many little things that I cannot remember them all.
7. Can you give us any particular case of the offering or of the taking of a bribe that we could investi-
gate ? Well, they told us that the police received jars of ginger, cases of tea, and chests of drawers.
8. But could you give us some particular case of an individual being bribed, and say by whom he was
bribed ? I do not think I could— speaking from memory. Inspector Atwill was charged with directly
taking a bribe.
9. That was told to you ? Yes, and that Constables Beadman, Carson, and Quealy had also been bribed.
10. Could you give us the name of the person who told you that ? I think that almost every member of the
Anti-Chinese Gambling League has made those statements in one form or another. They all told me of
different cases, and I did not make a note of them.
.1 1. But generally speaking the men you have mentioned are the accusers ? Yes ; and the four men that
I have mentioned are the accused.
12. Does this corruption, according to your information, run all through the force ? No ; as far as I can
understand the charges are confined to these four constables.
13. Some of them are private constable are they not ? I think so.
14. What was Quealy 'i A low-grade constable.
15. But this bribery to be effectual would have to be general among the members of the force engaged
in the Lower George-street district, would it not ? I suppose it would.
16. And the same in Goulburn-street 'i Yes. I suggested to the Colonial Secretary that even for the
sake of the men themselves — because there is no doubt the residents in George-street North, believe that
those among the police who are not actually bribed are afraid to move in the matter, because the influence
of those who own property might be used against them— that even for the sake of the men themselves if
for nothing else, they should bo removed to some other part of the town.
17. You say that the police are either bribed by the Chinese or afraid to prosecute according to law,
because of the influence of the property owners in the neighbourhood ? Yes, that is what is alleged by
my informants. It must be one of those reasons that conduces to the neglect of duty complained of.
18. In what way would the owners of property down there bring any influence to bear upon the common
policeman on his beat ? Well, I suppose they would do it through his superiors.
19. Did you ascertain any information that would be of use to the Commission on that particular point,
it is most important — I know that some of the property owners occupy high positions, and one of them a
particularly high position ? It is certainly an influence that is dreaded. One or two of the policemen I
believe — I do not remember their names — have stated to members of the deputation that they were afraid
to enforce the law, because of the influence that might be brought to bear against them.
20. Do you know anything about the Chinese in other parts of the city — some in Goulburn-street ? I
have sometimes walked up and down Goulburn-street, and the same state of things seem to prevail there.
If anything, I think the places there are more given up to Chinese gambling, filth, opium smoking, and
prostitution than those in Lower George-street, because they make no pretence of carrying on business
down there.
21. All the charges you have been making, however, are in reference to the police in Lower George-
street ? Yes.
22. But supposing that state of corruption exist in Lower George-street, it is probable in your mind that
the same state of things exist in Goulburn-street ? Yes ; I do not see how it can be otherwise.
23.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. &
23. In fact, it would be an extraordinary thing if it were not ? Tes ; it would be hardly possible. **• B1^j
24. Did the Anti-Chinese G-ambling League pay any attention to that portion of the city in their ~Jv|
investigation? Tes; I think they had members from that district. g'stl891
25. Have you ever heard of any specific charges against the police from those persons ? No ; I have "'
only met those who reside or who are employed in business in my electorate.
26. Tou stated that ordinary citizens — men, and also women — are constantly invited by the Chinese to
enter their places ; — when you say women, do you mean the ordinary prostitute or ladies passing down
the street on the way to the ferry-boats ? Respectable women. 1 can name one — the wife of Mr. Kelly,
the grocer. On her way down the street on one occasion she was interfered with, and had to return to
the shop to get the protection of her husband.
27. What time of day was that ? In the evening, I believe.
28. Does this molestation take place in the open daylight? Tes, I believe so. From what I have heard
and seen, I should say that it was more molestation by gesture and mutterings than actual interference.
29. But it does take place in the open daylight ? Tes.
30. Have you ever noticed it yourself ? I have been accosted myself.
31. By the Chinese? Tes.
32. But at night-time it is more general ? I should imagine so, though from experience I do not know.
33. Do people travel to the Manly boats along George-street ? They used to do so, but now the Chinese
nuisance has driven them into Pitt-street.
34. Is George-street the shorter route ? I believe it is ; at all events, people used to take it in preference
to Pitt-street.
35. And now, in consequence of the foot traffic having diverted into Pitt-street, there is a loss of trade
to the shopkeepers in George-street ? That is the complaint.
36. In other words, George-street North, as a business centre, has suffered considerable depreciation ? Tes.
37. And, if this state of things was allowed to continue, the result in the long run would be that the property-
owners is George-street would be able to let their premises to Chinese only ? Tes ; this influence is
forcing even those who object to let their premises to Chinese to do so, because they cannot find Europeans
to take them.
38. But would that entail the great increase in rent that you allude to ; — if none but Chinese would take
shops in that part of the street they would have the rents pretty much their own way? Perhaps
eventually that would be the case, but at present it is the reverse.
39. Can you give us any instance that has come within your own observation of a European tradesman
having been obliged to vacate his premises and the premises having been subsequently let to a Chinaman
at a higher rental and with a bonus added ? I have heard of many such eases.
40. But you have never taken notice of it yourself ? No. I know that in the case of some premises
erected by Mr. Beale the agent at first refused to let them to Chinese.
41. Why ? I did not hear the reason in so many words, but understood by what was said that it was
because he objected to the habits of Chinese tenants generally.
42. Do you know the premises ? No ; but at all events upon being refused, the Chinaman offered to
pay a higher rental for them, and ultimately a higher rental, and a bonus of £100, which the agent also
at first refused, but subsequently accepted. That information I obtained from Mr. Nock.
43. Are you aware whether there are many empty shops north of Bridge-street ? I walked out this
morning in that direction, and did see one or two empty shops. In one instance a tradesman (Mr. Nock)
has leased a shop next to his own, not because he wants it, for he only uses it as a kind of storeroom, but
in order to prevent a Chinese firm taking it.
44. Mr. Nock would not have rented the shop, but for that purpose ? No.
45. Does he reside there ? No ; he simply carries on his business there.
46. Have you ever visited any of these fan-tan or other gambling-houses ? Not in Sydney ; I went once
or twice for amusement, when I was in the bush.
47. Tou are a press-man, are you not ? Tes ; and when I said that I had not been in any of the
Chinese gambling-houses in Sydney, I forgot that about four or five years ago, I did go round to inspect
them. That was for the purpose of writing about them.
48. Had you any difficulty in getting in ? No ; no difficulty at all.
49. Did you only go to one place? No; to several.
*50. What sort of people were engaged in the gambling ? All classes.
51. Not merely Chinamen ? No ; Europeans ; clerks, men apparently engaged in business, boys, wharf-
labourers, seamen, engineers, persons of all classes, said mere children, some of them. That was when the
Bulletin published a series of articles on the question.
52. I suppose the practice has become more general since ? It has ; very much more. When I said
that I had not visited these places lately, I meant that I had not invested any money in them. In the
bush I did, out of curiosity, play fan -tan.
53. Do you understand the game ? To this extent : that I lost £6 or £7 at Hay.
54. Then you evidently do not understand it ? No.
55. Is the gambling carried on in one room ? Tes ; I think so.
56. Is that room well filled with players ? Tes ; so full that when I was there, many persons could not
get near the table, and had to take their places when others dropped out.
57. Do they play for high stakes ? They gamble for coppers I believe ; but at that time they were
playing for nothing less than sixpences.
58. Supposing the same to be conducted fairly, what are the banker's profits ? About 2d. in the shilling,
I think.
59. That is about 17 per cent. ? Tes ; but I am not quite sure about the amount.
60. Mr. Satothorne.] A penny in the shilling I think ? It may be a penny. Ean-tan is like all other
games carried on by a bank. The bankers do not depend only upon the percentages, but it may happen
that they sweep the whole board.
61. President.] I understand that sometimes a little cheating is indulged in ; — but I am supposing that
everything is carried on fairly ? Tes ; they have, I believe, hollow coins, spring coins, which split in two
when necessity requires.
62. Inspector Atwill is the alleged culprit, as far as connivance at the illegal practice of these people
is concerned, I believe ? Tes. My informants make him responsible for the neglect of duty on the
part of the police. 63.
4 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EA'IDENCE.
Q. Black, 63. Do you personally know Inspector Atwill ? I have interviewed hiin once — that is all.
Jisq., M.P. (j^, j8 fa a man 0f any means ? That I cannot say.
■ rYOi Gr>- Is ifc alleged that he is a rich man ? 1 have not heard anybody say so ; still, if reports are true, he
3 Sept., 1891. ought to be
66. You have made a study of the legislation connected with this question, have you not ? No, I cannot
say that I have. I know a little about it. I have obtained some information about the American laws
on the subject, and intended to bring it with me this morning, but find that I have mislaid it.
G7. At all events, from what you said to the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League, you do not
think that additional legislation is necessary ? No. I think they simply require to enforce the laws
already existing against gambling, over-crowding, filthy premises, prostitution, and the molestation of
people in the street.
68. Would it not be a fact that if the police made constant visits to these places they would conduct
the gambling very much less openly than they do ? I should think so.
69. Do you think that the constant visitation of the police would entirely suppress it ? I think that in
time it would ; of course it would terrify Europeans who were in the habit of visiting the places, as long
as they enjoyed a practical immunity from arrest. At present I should think the police have the_ power
of ordering the people out, if not arresting them, and the exercise of that power could scarcely fail to be
beneficial.
70. Is it not a fact that the police would be served with a special warrant for that purpose ? I am not
aware of it.
71. Have you inspected any of the premises where this gambling is carried on ? "Well, I know that when
I visited them some years ago you were usually faced after passing through the shop with a stout door,
in which there was a pane of glass. This door was closed, and behind it stood a Chinaman, who
scrutinised you closely before he admitted you ; and if he did not like the appearance of anyone he would
refuse to open the door.
72. Seeing that the internal arrangements are such, is it not a very difficult matter for the police to
apprehend the persons who are engaged in gambling in the inner apartment ? Well, I am told that
these precautions are not used in the day-time.
73. But do you think that gambling is carried on much in the day-time ? It is said that it is.
74. But wharf labourers, clerks, and tradesmen are engaged in the day-time ? Tradesmen and clerks are
of course employed during the day-time, but wharf labourers' employment is intermittent, and seamen
from the various ships in port often have leisure during the day-time.
75. Have you been up-stairs? Some years ago I went up-stairs in some of the houses.
76. Are you aware that if you entered with the police a scare would be created immediately, and the
occupants of the gambling-houses would take advantage of various means of communication between the
top storeys of one house and another for the purpose of escape ? I have heard that such would be the
case. Fak-ah-pu seems to be the game that is carried on most frequently during the day.
77. Tes ; but you see I want to keep to the police question ; the police have been charged with a very
grave dereliction of duty, and naturally they would reply by enumerating the difficulties that they would
have to encounter in making a raid upon these places ? Quite so. In San Francisco, I believe, the police
surround a whole block, and gradually close in upon the gambling-house.
78. Of course that would require a great many men ; in Lower George- street, for instance, it would
require a line of constables along the entire block in George-street itself, a similar number in the lane
behind, and others at each end of the block ? Tes ; I suppose it would.
79. And that would necessitate the watching of a large number of houses not occupied by Chinese at all,
becouse some respectable tradesmen are carrying on business in these very blocks ? Yes ; though there
would be no means of escape from a Chinese' gambling-house to that of a European citizen's, I suppose.
80. Would you give us the names of some of the persons in high places of whose influence you say the
police are in fear; are they members of Parliament, for instance ? I believe that one or two of them are
Members of the Legislative Council.
81. Can you give in their names ? I am not quite sure of the names, and would not like to risk doing
an injustice to anybody in the matter, but you can get all that information from any member of the depu-
tation who waited upon the Colonial Secretary. One landlord, for instance, refused to let his house to a
Chinaman for a gambling-den.
82. And this house is empty in consequence ? Well, perhaps not ; though 1 believe he was offered a
considerably higher rent by the Chinaman.
83. Well, I will take the name of that particular landlord ? I am afraid that I have forgotten it, but the
gentlemen to whom I have referred will be able to give it to you.
84. And has he complained that he has lost by it? I have not met him. I only know the facts of the
case from report. Mr. Christensen, of the oyster saloon, in Lower George-street, told me.
85. How long has he been there ? About twenty years.
86. And is he still in business there ? Yes.
87. Is he one of those who complains of loss of business ? Yes. He told me that at one time he made a
good deal of money there, and that now he is gradually losing it all.
88. Mr. Abigail.'] You stated to the President that you were accosted by a Chinaman in Lower George-
street ? Yes ; about two or three years ago.
89. What communication was made to you ? I was touched on the shoulder, and pointed into the shop.
Something was also said to me.
90. Which you did not understand, I suppose? Well, I did not want to understand it ; but I suppose
it was an invitation to go inside and play fan-tan. However, I jostled the fellow, and walked away. I
had a similar experience on two or three occasions, once during the recent elections, so that the several
acts of annoyance occurred at wide intervals of time.
91. Do you know, of your own knowledge, that any member of the Police Force has received gifts from
persons keeping Chinese gambling-houses— gifts consisting of money, watches, diamond pins, or rings or
articles of fancy furniture, for instance ? No. i .-,
92 You are reported to have said to the Colonial Secretarv that it was "a fact well known that the
police were paid dividends by some of the gambling-houses, so that the proprietors should not be arrested."
Do you know that of your own knowledge ? No. The report is not accurate in that respect. It should
have read : " It is asserted as a fact well known, &c." 93.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. O
93. Then you say that you " did not think additional legislation was necessary. They had laws already Q- B1*c*i>
against over-crowding and gambling. It was only necessary that the police should make use of these °^"'A • •
laws ;" — can you indicate to the Commission what those laws are? If, as the President has indicated, the ' ~" . JZ y
police cannot enter these places without a warrant, then 1 Buppose the proper thing would be for the v ''
authorities to supply members of the force told off for that particular duty with a warrant from day to
day, giving them power to search certain premises.
94. With a sort of general power to go in when they liked ? Tes.
95. Would not that be rather a dangerous thing, in the absence of any prior knowledge that an illegal
business was being carried on in the places to which the warrants applied ? Well, the mere fact of the
existence of these places is evidence of an offence against the law. We know that they do not do any
legitimate business and that they exist by illegal practices.
96. Is it your opinion that there are no Chinese keeping places where gambling is not carried on? I do
not think there are a dozen legitimate Chinese merchants in Lower George-street. From my own obser-
vation, I should say that there are not more than a dozen, and there are about forty Chinese merchants
in the neighbourhood.
97. Then you said that the police refuse to put the laws in force because they were afraid of offending
the people who kept these places ? Tes.
98. Tou also said, I think, that the proprietors of these gambling-houses had organised a " Police Susten-
tation Fund ;" — did you make that statement from your own knowledge ? That statement was made by
an interpreter.
99. The Government interpreter ? That I cannot say.
100-1. What is his name ? I do not know.
102. Was it G-oldtown ? Tes ; I believe that was the name.
103. It was stated by the deputation that one Chinese firm had sent £60,000 out of New South Wales
as the result of the profits made out of gambling ;— was that statement made from information in your
own possession ? That was stated by Mr. Nock or Mr. Armstrong, I believe, but I should imagine that
that was a collective sum — the result of the operations of a syndicate of gamblers.
104. Have you any knowledge as to whether these Chinamen are free and independent, or are under the
control of certain wealthy Chinese merchants ? I fancy they act in concert in some way or another,
whether by reason of some sort of guild that exists amongst them, or whether they are slaves, I do not
know.
105. Tou do not know whether there are any secret societies amongst them ? Tes ; I think there is a
kind of Maffia amongst them.
106. Tou said that you visited some of these dens in the country ? Tes, in Hay, Deniliquin, Wilcannia,
and Wagga W agga.
107. There are a great many Chinese at Hay ? Tes, there are a great many at all the places I have
named.
108. And do Europeans visit their places ? Tes, very much. On my arrival at Hay I visited the Chinese
camp. There was a building, 30 or 40 yards long, with an alleyway up the centre, and three tiers of bunks
on each side. Altogether I should think there must have been LOO bunks there. On the occasion to
which I refer I went to the door of the place and looked in. I saw half a dozen women half dressed
lying about drunk, and smoking opium, and in the middle of the floor a prominent solicitor was dancing
about in the centre of the floor with no clothing on. He has since fallen down stairs and broken his
neck.
10!). Mr. Quong Tart.'] Do you know who carries on the largest gambling-dens ? I have not taken any
note of the names.
110. Do you know about how many pak-ah-pu houses there are in Lower George-street? Prom what
members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League told me I should think there must be over twenty.
111. Do you know any of the Chinese merchants, or anybody connected with them, engaged in gambling-
houses ? I do not know the names of any, but 1 am sure that any of the gentlemen to whom I have
alluded will be able to give you information on the point.
112. Mr. Hawthorne. ,] I suppose those gentlemen gave you your information ? Tes ; I have attended
about half a dozen meetings of the League, and members have supplied me with information from time
to time. I have not taken any notes of that information, nor have I been able to follow my inquiries by
personal investigation since I received the information.
113. I suppose you really made these inquiries since you were asked to accompany the deputation ?
Tes.
114. How long has the Anti-Chinese Gambling League been in existence ? As a League, I believe it has
existed since a week or two after the elections. One of the principal members told me that they have
been working up the question for a great many years, but have not been able to get assistance from Sir
Henry Parkes' or any other Government, but that now there is a party in the House that is willing to
help them
115. What party it is ? The Labour Party. They do not say that nobody had been willing to fight their
battles before, because individual members have moved in the matter, but what they do say is that no
Government has been willing to do anything. They have received some promises, and on one occasion
Mr. Dibbs made a personal inspection. However, they have got more now than they had before, and they
attribute that to the Labour Party.
116. Mr. McKillop.~\ I believe you have seen it published in a weekly paper that a constable who has been
dismissed the from force had a large amount of money in the bank ? Tes.
117. Do you know for a positive fact that he had the money to his credit? That information was sup-
plied to me by the vanman David Eip, whose name I have mentioned.
118. Are you aware that a large number of wharf-labourers and others lose the whole of their wages at
these gambling places ? Tes, I am ; from the personal* statements of the men themselves.
119. Are you also aware that children are sent there very often by their parents for pak-ah-pu tickets ?
I have been told so, and have myself seen children going to the gambling-houses, though I could not say
for what purpose. I have been informed by those who live in the neighbourhood that children habitually
go there, and are seen coming out with tickets.
120. Are you also aware that respectable females passing through Lower George-street are insulted?
Tes-
6 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
G. Black, Tes ; on the evidence of Mr. Kelly, who stated that his wife had heen molested, and on the evidence of
Esq., M.P. ]yjr_ Nock, who stated that certain ladies of his acquaintance had been moleBted.
R/q**7V-TRqi ^'^' ^Tom an answer you made to some questions by Mr. Abigail it is evident that you are well
B Sep ., . aCqUain|;e(i with the habits of the Chinese in the country districts. Are you of opinion that their vices
of gambling and opium smoking there are similar to what they are in the city and suburbs ? Tes ; very
similar, I think. The Chinese camp in every country town that I have visited is generally looked upon
by the residents as a means of promulgating vice. It gives the young of both sexes an opportunity of
acquiring a taste for gambling and opium-smoking, and leads young men and women away from virtue.
122. You stated that in your opinion the present laws against gambling, and filthy and overcrowded
premises were sufficiently stringent, and only required putting in force. Have you read them ? Not
very carefully.
123. Are you aware that the police have not got the power of entering the gambling houses at any time
without a warrant ? No ; I thought they could.
124. Mr. Tart.'] Do you know of much opium-smoking in George-street North ? Tes ; I know of it.
125. Is it very bad there ? Some years ago I saw a great deal of it, and I believe that the practice is
now much worse. Nor is it confined to the Chinese ; many Europeans have contracted the habit, and
there are now, I am informed, some hundreds of habitual opium-smokers amongst the white population
of Sydney. Many of them purchase the opium from the Chinamen for the purpose of smoking. I have
met some of them.
Mr. Thomas Eigby called : —
Mr. T. Eigby. 126. President.] What are you by trade ? An iron turner.
,-—<-*— — n 127. Where do you reside ? In Allen-street, Ultimo.
3 Sept., 1891. 128. Did you visit G-oulburn-street last week ? Tes ; three nights.
129. Tou heard some talk of the appointment of this Commission then? Tes ; I heard some talk of it
when in Lower George-street on Saturday afternoon last.
130. What did you learn with regard to the police? I went to one of the Chinamen's shops, and he
said, " Will you come inside ? " I replied, " No ; policeman come." To that, he said, " No ; no police
come to my shop." Then I said, " Perhaps Commission come ? " and he said, " No ; not to-night.
Commission go to Goulburn-street to-night."
131. Is that all the information you got ? Yes; that is all.
132. Were you present on Saturday evening in Goulburn-street when we came round ? Tes.
133. Did you say then that the detectives had visited the Chinese in the neighbourhood and told them
that the Commission were coming round ? I did not say that the detectives had told them that the Com-
mission were coming round ; but I did say that Inspector Mackay and Detectives Keating and Eae had
been round on the previous Thursday and Friday nights, and hunted them out of the gambling-houses.
134. What street was that in ? Goulburn-street.
135. Only in Goulburn-street? Tes.
136. Did you go into any of the Chinese gambling-houses afterwards ? No, not afterwards.
137. Had you any conversation with the Chinese as to what the police said to them ? No, I had not.
138. And that is really all you know about it? Tes.
139. Did Detective West go round there on Saturday afternoon ? Not that I know of.
140. Mr. Abigail!] Do you knowthe man down Lower George-street with whom you had the conversation?
No, but I can find out. He lived in a Chinese boarding-house.
Mr. Thomas Nock called :-
Mr. T. Nock. 141. President.] Tou are a member of the firm of Eelton and Nock, ironmongers, I believe ? I am.
/ — ^"— — "> 142. Where do you reside ? At Mossman's Bay.
3 Sept., 1891. i4,3_ Where do you carry on business ? At 194 and 196, George-street North, in Kent and Erskine
Streets, and Walker-street, North Sydney.
144. Where do you personally spend most of your time ? At 194, George-street North. I have been
there for nineteen years past.
145. Occupying the same premises ? Tes.
146. What rent do you pay for your shop ? We pay close on £5 a week.
147. Por one shop ? Tes ; but at the same time in making the premises suitable for ourselves we have
expended £500.
148. And who pays the taxes ? We do.
149. And on how many feet of ground does your shop stand ? It has about 18 feet frontage.
150. How many storeys ? Two.
151. And how many rooms ? Five or six.
152. What rent did you pay five years ago ? £3 15s. a week.
153. How do you account for the increase from £3 15s. to £5 a week during the last five years ? I
account for it m this way : The next door premises were vacated by a European and a Chinaman took
them for a gambling-house (not from the landlord, however), and in order to obtain them he paid 10s. or
15s. a week more than we were paying, and there was so much fighting and quarrelling there during the
day-time that it became imperative either for us to clear out or to take a lease of the next-door premises.
The landlord promised that if we would pay the extra rent he would turn the Chinaman out, so we took
the premises on a lease and sublet them to a grocer. The premises abiacent to them, however, were
built specially for Chinese gambling-houses.
154 But how is it that you have to pay £5 a week now instead of £3 15s. as formerly ;— is it because
the Chinamen have raised rents in the localities ? , Tes ; because by carrying on an illegitimate business
they are able to pay higher rents than we can.
155 As a matter of fact, have they offered to pay higher rents in order to get hold of premises previously
held by Europeans r Tes, and bonuses besides.
156. What do you pay for the other house ? The same rental.
157. And your rent has been raised in consequence of the Chinese outbidding you and using the places
as gamblmg-houses ? Tes.
158.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. *
158. How many Chinese gambling-houses are there north of Bridge-street, on both sides of George- Mr" T< Nock»
street, down to Argylcstreet ? I have never counted them ; but I know there are twelve in a row „ CT*"?^,
next to us. 3 Se&-> 1891«
159. But about how many are there between Bridge-street and Argyle-street ? About thirty-three.
160. "Who is the chief gambler in G-eorge-street North ? Moy Ping.
161. How many premises has he ? He has but one.
162. What rent does he pay for them ? He gave a bonus of £100 for a three years' lease, and pays £7
a week rent.
163. How many rooms are there in that house ? I cannot tell you ; I have not been in.
164. It is a three-storey house, is it not ? Yes.
165. A very much larger house than yours ? No ; because it does not take up 18 feet of frontage, I
should think. I do not think it has a frontage of more than 16 feet.
166. But as a matter of fact, it has three storeys ? Yes.
167. You believe there are thirty-three Chinese gambling-houses in Lower G-eorge-street ? I am not
positive of it.
168. Whom are they frequented by generally ? Mostly whites ; not by Chinese.
169. Have you ever visited any of them yourself ? No ; although in some of them the gambling is con-
ducted so close to the street, that from the footpath you can see what goes on inside. I have seen as
many as 500 white people turned out of the gambling-houses situated between our place and the corner
of Queen's-place.
170. What hours of the day do they carry on the gambling ? It goes on all day and all night for seven
days a week.
171. But in the day-time I suppose the attendance is limited ? Yes ; excepting on Sundays.
172. Then the police on duty at that end of the town from the highest to the lowest in the force, must
be aware of it ? Yes ; they know all about it — from the highest to the lowest in the force.
173. Do you know anything of the charges against the police of conniving at the gambling as the result
of a system of bribery instituted by the Chinese themselves? I charged them with conniving.
.171. And with having received bribes ? Well ; it is very difficult to sheet a charge of that kind home.
175. You simply charged them with conniving ? Yes.
176. Will you say that you believe that the police have received bribes to induce them to wink at the
violation of the law ? Do you want me to state that I believe it.
177. Certainly if you do ? Well ; I do believe it.
178. Now 1 want your reason for believing it ? About two years ago some of my customers, and also
those who were working for me, came to me and said, " Do you not think it is a great shame to see those
police officers in the gambling-houses in Queen's-place "? I said, " If they are there, it is a shame, but
I have been so busy that I have not looked." They replied, " Well, just come along and see for your-
self. " I did so, and saw Constable Beadman and Constable Carson leaning over the counter and smoking.
179. Mr. MeKillop.] In uniform ? They do not wear uniform ; they are plain-clothes men. Well, I
waited half an hour to see them come away from the place, and when they did come they came joking
and laughing. I may say that I am satisfied they were there for nothing but their own ends, because I
have seen them pat gamblers on their backs, and ask what won this game and who won that.
180. You have seen them do that yourself ? Yes ; and on the occasion to which I was referring, as I
like to give every man a chance, I went up to Beadman, and said to him, "I think it is a shame to see
you in this place." He replied, " You cannot do anything, Mr. Nock." I said, " Why can't I, and, for
that matter, why can't you ? " His answer was, " Most of these places are owned by Members of
Parliament and influential men, and they tell us that if we turn these people out they cannot get respec-
table persons to replace them as tenants." I said, " I can quite believe that ; they could not get decent
tenants for their premises under the circumstances, but that is no reason why you should not do your
duty."
181. President.'] But I asked you why you believed that the police took bribes ? Yes ; and I am
explaining to you why I do believe it.
182. Have you seen them bribed by the Chinese ? No ; but I have seen them drinking and having
dinners with the boss gamblers.
183. Does that apply to these particular men? To Beadman and Carson — yes. No men would go into
a stinking place with a lot of Chinese gamblers unless
184. But everyone has his own form of delights. I want your best reason for believing that the police
are bribed, and you say that they are constantly in communication with Chinese gambling-house pro-
prietors, and that therefore they must know that the law is being violated, and must be paid for winking
at the violation ? Exactly.
1,85. Who are the owners of these gambling-houses? The Hon. William Long owns some, and Mr. I.
J. Josephson owns some.
186. There were two Josephsons — the ex-judge and I. J. Josephson — are you sure which of them it is?
Yes. He is a little man. A syndicate, of which Mr. Beale is a member, owns others ; and there are
others again of which Mr. Alfred Bennett owns the ground, and Mr. Himelock the buildings.
187. But to whom does he lease them ? To Mr. M'Coy.
188. Is it a long lease ? Yes. I think so.
189. Do you know Inspector Atwill ? Yes.
190. How long has he been down there ? I suppose about ten years.
191. Of course he must know all about this gambling ? He told me that he knew all about it.
192. Have you any reason to believe that he neglects his duty ? Yes, I have reason to believe it.
193. Would you say shortly what that reason is ? Because he said that he could not carry out the law.
194. You mean to say that he really does not try ? I only tell you what he told me — " that he could not
carry out the law."
195. Mr. Abie/ail.'] He gave you no reason for saying so ? Yes, he gave me several reasons. One was
that there were so many doors to get out of these places by ; and I told him that if a publican given to
Sunday selling had 500 doors to his place, and he wanted to effect an entrance he would do so.
196. What other reason did he give you ? Only that nothing could be done.
197. President.] Has he been to your knowledge charged with taking bribes or presents from the
Chinese ? Not to my knowledge.
198.
8 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINtTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. T. Nock. 198. Have Constables Beadman or Carson been charged with taking bribes, or accepting presents ? I
/—^-^"n have heard people say so.
3 Sept., 1891. 199 Presents from whom ? Gamblers.
200. Chinese gamblers ? Tes.
201. Can you tell us the names of the persons who have directly accused these men of taking bribes ? I
cannot say from memory who they were.
202. It is very important ; we want to trace a bribe from one individual to another ? That will be
impossible. People do not go into the street as a rule and tell when they are going to offer a bribe ; but
I do not believe that any officer in the Police Force could deny that he had received a present.
203. But if Inspector Atwill received a fancy cabinet from a Chinaman, for instance, I suppose the
carters who conveyed it would know ? Most probably not. They would send it in a safety, wrapped in
Hessian, and labelled for the railway.
204. Tou have never heard of Inspector Atwill being presented with a cabinet by the Chinese ? No.
205. And you cannot give us any information on the question of bribery, so that we could trace a case to
the individuals concerned ? No.
206. You think the police must have been bribed, however, or else they would not have neglected their
duty ? There certainly has been a great neglect of duty, and there must have been some reason for it.
207. And that reason must apply from the lowest officer in the division to the highest ? No ; there have
been some members of the force who have been conscientious servants of the Crown all along.
208. But supposing a policeman on duty sees the gambling going on from the street, would he not be
able to go in and see about it ? I should think so.
209. Then why have not the ordinary police done so ? They say that they have reported it to their
superior officer, received no encouragement from him, and could not do anything without him.
210. Then he has simply winked at it ? Tes.
211. Mr. Abigail.'] Tou understand that in giving evidence before the Commission you have nothing to
fear, and we expect you to speak the truth ? Certainly ; I always speak truth.
212. Of your own knowledge can you tell the Commission of any constable who has accepted anything in
the nature of a bribe— gold watch, diamond ring, money, or anything else? Of my own knowledge I
cannot.
213. It is stated that boys and girls visit the gambling places down in Lower George-street for the purpose
of gambling? I do not know that girls visit them for that purpose. I know that boys do.
214. Do you know that girls have visited these places for any other purpose ? I suppose they must have
had a purpose in going there. I have seen them go in.
215. Do you suppose that it is for an immoral purpose? That I cannot say.
216. But you are quite sure that you have seen girls go in ? Tes.
217. Tou said to the Colonial Secretary that many more arrests would have been made if a warning had
not been given ? Tes ; and I say so now.
218. What was the warning ? One officer went into a tobacconist's shop, and asked the tobacconist's
wife if her husband were in, and she replied, " No ; what do you want?" He said, "We are going to
make a raid to-day. Have you got a crowbar you can lend us ?"
219. What is the name of the constable ? My informant is Mr. Armstrong, and he has the name of the
constable. About 3 o'clock the same afternoon I saw Constable Higgins walking up and down in front
of my shop. I asked him what he was doing it for, and he said, " The Chinese have been troubling
us very much lately." I said to him, "They have troubled us very much for a very long time ; why
don't you people raid them ? " He replied, " We don't know how to get into them." I said, "If you
will come with me, sergeant, I will show you the way into eight of them." I then showed him our right-
of-way. He said, " Oh ! I know that way. In fact, I could raid them from the front now, but there are
only Chinese gambling." I replied, " We don't care whether they are Chinese or whites ; we think
something should be done." On the Friday, Inspector Atwill interviewed me with regard to the
matter ; that was the day before the raid was made. He sent for me, and asked me what I intended
to do with him. I said, " Inspector Atwill, I do not understand you." He said, " Oh, with regard to
this fan-tan business." I replied, " I want something done ; can you not do something for us"? And
he said, " No, nothing can be done." I said, " How is that ? I see that in Alexandria a raid has been
made, and some men have been fined." He said, " We cannot do anything here ; there are too many
doors to the places." My answer was, " Tou told Mrs. Thompson, the hotelkeeper, that you would take
her license, and you did it." He said, " But I have not got her out yet." " No," I said, " but you
took her license away, because she traded irregularly on the seventh day, and there are men carrying" on
an illegal business alongside of me seven days of every week, and you have not done anything. Why
have you not done something "? He said, " Look here, Mr. Nock, what is the use of your growling
about the Chinamen. They are not hurting you." "Inspector Atwill," I said, "I am in quarantine.
There are twelve gambling houses together on one side of me. Tou never saw so many in Lower George-
street before." He replied, " There never were so few Chinamen in Lower George-street before ; " and
I said, " That is false."
220. At all events, the upshot of it was that he told you they could do nothing? Tes.
221. And the same night a raid was made ? No, the next night. That night I went down to the meeting
of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League, and moved that we should interview the new Labour Party on the
question. My interview was printed in the Echo of the next day, and the same evening the raid was made.
222. Tou do not know that all the arrangements for the raid were made by Inspector Atwill before he
spoke to you ? I know they were not. He said they could do nothing.
223. Well, now, what is the general results of all this Chinese gambling, and the other evils that exist
down there ; — has it deteriorated the value of property, decreased business, or demoralised the commu-
nity ? It lias not only destroyed the chances of legitimate business, but it has stopped the traffic in
the street.
224. The foot traffic, you mean ? Tes.
225. And the business people down there have taken this question upon that ground? They have been
pegging away at it for the last ten or fifteen years.
220. The Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? No ; the shopkeepers in Lower George-street.
227. Individually ? Tes, and together.
.. _ 228
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MtSVTES OE EVIDENCE. J
228. Mr. McKillop.] By deputation? During the existence of the Parliament before this once a deputa- Mr- T- Nock,
tion waited upon Mr. McMillan, then Colonial Treasurer, but nothing came of it. <j/h~^~ioti
229. "What we want to inqure into is : Pirst, the charges of bribery against the police, and, I understand, SeP*-> 1891,
that you cannot supply any direct information against any constable ? No, I cannot.
230. Tou are satisfied, however, that the effect of the gambling carried on in Lower George-street is
injuring business and demoralising the neighbourhood ? I am sure of it.
231. Have you thought out anything in reference to framing a law to deal with it ? Men have been fined
under the law such as it is to-day.
232. Tes, they were fined when they were caught ? But last Saturday night any constable could have
made a raid on fifteen or twenty places.
233. The gambling is still going on as briskly as ever, then ? After the raid was made we had quietness
for about a fortnight, but it has begun again, and last Saturday night it was going on as much as ever.
234. Then because people were fined, you think the law is sufficient as it stands? That is what the
Anti-Chinese Gambling League want to find out. "We want some remedy. If we cannot get one I shall
have to shut my business up, and that will be the loss of a connection in the neighbourhood that has
taken me twenty years to establish.
235. Then the League has not suggested an alteration in the law in any particular direction? They are
under the impression that if people have been fined under it once it is good enough to fine them again.
236. Do you think, from what you know of the matter, that a fine is a sufficient punishment. Do you
think that fines will ever stop the evil ? No ; I do not.
237. Do you think that imprisonment should be applied ? Tes ; imprisonment with hard labour.
238. Do you know the truth of a statement to the effect that one Chinaman had sent away £60,000 as
the result of profits accumulated out of gambling ? I heard the statement made.
239. But you have no personal knowledge of its truthfulness ? No.
240. Are there some legitimate businesses carried on by the Chinese in Lower George-street or are they
all slaves ? No. There are some very respectable Chinese merchants.
241. Do they take any action with a view to the suppression of gambling ? They are frightened.
242. Have you any knowledge of a secret society amongst the Chinese with the object of assisting these
men if they are taken up and fined ? I have no personal knowledge of any society of the kind, but I
believe that there is one.
243. Mr. Guong Tart.~\ Tou say that Moy Ping is the biggest gambler ? He has had the biggest place
there for some time.
244. Do you know any other ? Tes— Sam Kee. He is the man, I believe, who has boasted of doing as
much as £60,000 a year out of the business.
245. Tou also say that some of the police have remained honest upright men since they joined the force?
Tes ; that is what I said.
246. Tou do not know, of your own knowledge, that any bribes have been given ? No.
247. Do you know if much opium-smoking is carried on down there ? I can only judge by the smell one
gets in passing the places. I have never visited then).
248. But you know that opium-smoking goes on by the smell ? Tes; it is something dreadful. I have
seen ladies fall down in the slreet and retch as a result of it. Those were delicate people, who had just
been for a sea breeze to Manly, and were coming back from the Circular Quay. I have helped to support
them.
249. Who are the respectable Chinese merchants ? Mr. Lee is one. He is a really " white man." My
neighbour, Ah Toy, the cabinet-maker, is a well-conducted man. Then there is a decent man named, I
think, Qoung Ti, engaged at Sun Sam Ti's.
250. Do you think they are afraid to give any evidence ? Tes ; I have been told that they are afraid to
mix themselves up in it at all.
251. Mr. McXillopJ] Do you know the class of Europeans who visit these gambling-dens ? Tes. I have
seen officials well up in the Government Service, officers well up in Shipping Companies service, and
bank clerks, and I have also seen the thief just out of gaol.
252. In your remarks to the Premier you stated that a certain postmaster was in the habit of going
there ? Well, I did say so ; but I see he has taken the hint, and kept out of the way ever since.
253. "Would you mind giving the Commission the name of the postmaster ? I do not think there is any
necessity to do that. It would only get him into trouble, and as a matter of fact he has not been near the
places since the deputation.
254. Then I will not press the question ; — do you know of ex- Con stable Quealy ? 1 do.
255. Do you know that he had a great deal to do with the Chinese dens ? Not of my own knowledge.
256. Only from hearsay ? I have not heard much about anything but his drunkenness.
257. Tou are aware that men are in the habit of leaving all their wages in the gambling-dens — wharf-
labourers, coal-lumpers, seamen, and others ? Tes.
258. Tou are well aware that heart-rendering scenes occur in the street by their wives following them to
the very doors of the Chinamen's places, and begging them not to go in? I have seen some awful scenes.
259. Have you ever seen a riot in one of these dens ? I have been present when fifty or 100 rows have
been taking place.
260. "Were there any broken skulls ? Tes, I have seen men taken out of there bleeding and unconscious.
261. Are there not a large number of low Europeans in the pay of Chinamen as touts ? Tes ; I have
heard them called " bummers." The police have told me, upon inquiry, that they are noted thieves.
262. Did you beforehand hear anything about the Commission going round Lower George-street this
night week? No.
263. Have you since heard that the police gave an intimation to the Chinese residents there that the
Commission were going to visit them on that occasion ? Tes. In fact, immediately before the Commis-
sion came round we sold more brooms and scrubbing brushes to the Chinamen than we ever did before.
264. Do you know of any respectable females having been insulted ? Tes ; I know of a Mrs. Chambers,
whose husband will be only too glad to give evidence, having been insulted ; and I know of a Mrs. Kelly,
whose husband will also be glad to give evidence, having been insulted too.
265. Are you aware that little children, both boys and girls, go in ? I have seen boys go in to play
fan-tan. 266.
272— B
10 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. T. Xook. 266. You have not seen children stay there to buy pak-ah-pu tickets ? No.
r -— n 267. You are sure that these places are kept only for the purpose of gambling, not for trading ? Yes ; I
3 Sept., 1891. Q0 not suppose that the utensils in the whole of the twelve Chinese shops near me would fetch £5.
26S. Had vou ever any conversation with Ah Toy about a book-case, said to have been presented to Inspector
Atwill? Yes; after the Commission was appointed Ah Toy came to my shop one evening, and asked
me to make out an account. I asked him what he wanted an account for that night, and he said, " Oh>
Police Inspector wants a bill." As I was very busy I sent him up to Mr. Chambers, my accountant, who
asked him the same question. He replied to him also, " Oh, Police Inspector wants a bill." Mr. Chambers
asked him what he wanted it for, and he explained that it was for a book-case supplied to Inspector Atwill.
Mr. Chambers then said, " Has he just bought it?" and he said, " No, eighteen months ago." "We asked
if he wanted the account receipting, and he said, " No."
269. The bill was made out to your own knowledge ? Our accountant made it out.
270. And the account was of eighteen months standing? Yes ; that is what Ah Toy said.
271. Do you know exactly what the article was ? A book-case, I believe.
272. Do you know anything of a diamond ring presented to one of the police? I have heard about it,
but do not know anything about it personally.
273. Do you know whether at any time Mr. Beale used to refuse to let his premises to Chinese ? I was
present when he turned them out, and when his foreman said to Ah Ping, " "Well, I have turned you out,"
" Yes, and more fool you," said Ah Ping, " Why ?" asked Mr. Beale's man, " Because you cannot let
these places to respectable people." " They cannot pay the rent" he replied. " I have got a shop now in. the
new buildings, you see, from Mr. M'Coy." I went to him and said " I want a shop," " No ; no Chinamen
in my shops," said Mr. M'Coy. " What rent you get," I said. He told me £6 a week. " Then, I will
give ycu £7," I said. But that was not sufficient an inducement, so the Chinaman offered in addition a
bonus of 100 sovereigns down, and a three years' lease.
274. Do you know this of your own knowledge ? Moy Ping related the circumstance iu my presence,
and he also said that he could get a shop in the centre of George-street, if it would suit his business as he
had the money to pay for it.
275. As you have been in the business nineteen years perhaps you would tell the Commission the amount
of loss you sustained in the depression of your business through persons avoiding that portion of the
town ? I should put our losses during the last twelve months down at £500.
276. And are they increasing each year ? Yes ; we shall have to shut the place up directly, if we do not
get some success.
277. Is it a positive fact that the respectable people who used to come down Lower George-street on their
way to the Manly boats, do so no longer ? Yes, and not only so, but the wives of coal-lumpers and
wharf labourers who used to come down the street to make purchases go elsewhere now because the stench
is so bad.
27S. Mr. Hawthorne.] Was there any price mentioned in the account you made out for Inspector
Atwill ? Yes ; £5 I think.
279. And did the Chinaman by his conversation lead you to believe that no money was paid for it ? We
asked him if he was being paid for it then, and from what he said I took it that he was not.
280. And that was since the Commission was appointed? Yes, and since it was appointed the police has
been thoroughly disorganised. The Inspector has interviewed every man of any standing down there
saying, " You know nothing against me, do you."
281. In other words, the police from the Inspector downwards have been going round to the different
persons connected with the Anti-Chinese Gambling League trying to impress them favourably with their
past action in reference to gambling ? To all excepting myself.
282. And previous to the appointment of the Commissioners you have never been troubled with the police
in connection with the matter ? No ; but I have troubled them. Indeed I asked Mr. Beadman to allow
me to repeat to authorities statement that he made with reference to gambling, and he said I must think
he was a fool. I replied, <: I have no need to think that. This witness (a man called Nolan who
will corroborate all I say) has heard exactly what you said."
283. Can you give me the names of the Government officials who, you say, have been in the habit of
patronising these places ? I should not care to do that.
284. Do you know the names of them ? I know the names of two of them.
285. President.] And I suppose you know the names of the bank clerks and mercantile clerks occupying
good positions who have been in the habit of going there ? Yes, I do ; but I would not give them up.
It would only do them an injury.
286. Mr. Hawthorne.] We are not interested in private individuals, but when you speak of "high
Government officials" I think we should know exactly what you mean ? I consider a postmaster a high
Government official ; but they knocked off before the Commission was appointed. The Echo devoted a
leading article to the question, and they knocked off after that.
287. Mr. McKillop.] Used they to go m through the front door in George-street? Yes; and I have
seen the postmaster to whom I allude occupy a chair in the middle of the floor. The number of people
who go to the gambling-dens amounts to thousands. The night the raid was made and the dens were
shut down no less than 500 men were shoved out into the street from the different houses. To show you
the growth of the evil, I may also state that these men who kept accommodation .women on the premises
in Lower George-street keep well-furnished houses in Cambridge-street for them now.
288. These women are "kept" by the Chinese? Yes.
289. Mr. Abigail.] Can you indicate the houses ? A terrace, in Cambridge-street.
290. The houses are well furnished, and the women live iu style ? Yes. The City Solicitor, Mr.
Merriman, told me some time ago that he would personally interview Mr. Posbery on the matter, and I
believe he did so on two occasions, but I have seen no result. The fact is, that for years past I have been
running here and there in the hope of getting something done, and I have succeeded in getting nothing,
done. Indeed, as I said before, 1 have been insulted by members of the police force in front of my
own shop.
291. Mr. McKillop.] Are you in fear that you may be attacked at any time ? I have been warned to
keep away.
292. Mr. Hawthorne.] By the Chinese ? Yes ; by Chinamen who have known and respected me for
twenty years. 293.
CHINESE GAkBllSa COMMISSION — MTNTTTES OF ETIDENdE. ,, 11
293. Mr. Abigail.'] Are you in fear from the police ? Most decidedly I am, because I have no protection ^>^^t-
from them, and all other members of the Anti-Chinese G-ambling League will suffer the same. 3'sentl891
294. Mr. McKillop.] Tou are an official of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League? No; but I am a l ''
member of it, and the press has supported us in all that we have done.
FRIDAY, 4 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
ftemt:—
The Mayor oe Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Peesident.
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN" STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Young Tow, examined through the interpreter : —
295. President.] "Where do you live ? At 69, Goulburn-street. Young Yow.
296. Have you been visited by the police within the last fortnight ? Tes, sometimes by one, sometimes , — _/^ — ^
by two policemen. 4 Sept., 1891,
297. Do you know the names of the constables ? No, I do not.
298. Do you know their numbers ? No.
299. When was the last visit paid to you by the police ? Between two and three weeks ago.
300. What did the police say to you ? Tou had all better not be caught gambling. If you are caught
you will be arrested.
301. Did the police say anything about the intended visit of the Royal Commission ? No.
302. Are you aware that the police visited other Chinese residents near you ? About other people's
places I know nothing.
303. Do you know from your countrymen that they have also been visited and warned by the police ?
Some of my neighbours have read out of the paper to me that I had better not gamble, because of the
appointment of the Commission.
304. Has the gambling been continued since the appointment of the Commission in any of the places in
Goulburn-street ? No ; they are all frightened.
305. Do you know anything about the Chinese residents in Lower George-street ? No ; I know nothing
about them.
306. Were the police who visited you in plain clothes or in uniform ? In uniform.
307. What part of Goulburn-street do you live in ? In the block between Pitt and George-street — at
the corner of Robertson's Lane.
30S. Do the shops near you do any business in dealing in wares of any kind ? There are two stores a
couple of doors further up than my place, carrying on a general trade, and there is also one draper.
309. Are not all the other shops used as gaming-houses ? As far as I know, one is a lodging-house, but
what the others are I do not know.
310. Do you not know that nearly all of them sell lottery tickets ? On the opposite side of the street
they carry on lotteries, but not on my side.
311. And do not they play fan-tan also ? Tes.
312. Are the people who gamble in Goulburn-street mostly Europeans ? The majority of them are
Chinamen .
313. What are the stakes generally when the Chinese play ? They vary. Sometimes a few pence, and
at other times 2s. or 3s.
314. Do you know anything about the profits made by the houses in the block between Pitt and George-
Streets ? The general rule is that a penny out of every shilling is kept by the bankers.
315. Have any of the Chinese there abouts become rich out of the profits of this game ? As far as I
know they sometimes win £3 or £4, but I know nothing of any big money.
316. Do you know who are the owners of the property opposite where you live ? No ; I do not know who
the landlord is, but that can be found out.
317. Do you know the rental of any of the shops thereabouts ? 30s., £2 5s., and £2 10s. a week.
318. Are you personally a tenant ? Tes.
319. What do you do for a living ? My house is a kind of lodging and boarding establishment, a cook
shop, and a place for the accommodation of Chinese gardeners.
320. How many rooms are there in the house ? Three upstairs and two downstairs.
321. How many people do you accommodate ? The number varies from four to ten.
322. What rent do you pay ? £2 10s.
323. Mr. Abigail.] Do you gamble ? Tes ; sometimes.
324. Are you a winner or loser by the game ? I win and lose about equally. Sometimes I lose, and then
I make it up again.
325. Do you smoke opium ? No.
326. Mr. Quong Tart.] Since you received a notice to attend the Commission, have you talked the matter
over with anybody ? No.
327. Who is outside in the corridor ? Chen Ah Teak ; I brought him with me to interpret for me if
necessary, because some Englishman was round yesterday and made a charge against me which I thought
might entail some explanation.
328. Have you any friends in the Police Eorce ? No.
329. Mr. Abigail.] Do you know of any amount of money or any present of any kind being given to a
policeman ? I never saw any.
330. Are there ever any rows in Goulburn-street ? Tes ; rows do occur sometimes.
331. Through gambling ? Sometimes through gambling, and sometimes not.
332. How do most of them occur ? Most of them occur through gambling.
333. Mr. McKillop.] Did any row take place in your house in which crowbars were used ? No. '
334. Have you ever seen young lads or children going in to play fan-tan ? Tes; I have seen them go
into the other places, but never into mine.
335. Do you play pak-ah-pu ? Tes ; in the front shop. 336,
12 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Young Yow. 336. Have you ever given lottery tickets to children ? No ; only Chinamen play in my place.
t ^—-> 337. Mr. Abigail.] Have you a "fan -tan table there ? Yes ; there is one there.
4 Sept., 1891. 333 j^r Jiawthome.] How long ago is it since it was used ? It has been out of use for about three
weeks
339. Mr. P Quona Tart.] Had you any idea that the Commission were going to visit any of these places last
Saturday ' Yes ; I was aware of the visit through the newspapers.
340. Is it not a fact that a policeman went round beforehand warning you not to gamble, because oi the
projected visit of the Commission? The police came round before the information appeared in the
papers. not
341. Mr. McKillop.] Did you seo it in the papers yourself, or did anybody read it to you t borne ot my
neighbours road it to me. . .
342. Mr. Hawthorne.] "Were you quite awaro, from what your neighbours told you, that the Commission
was going to visit Goulburn-street last Saturday night? Some of my neighbours knew, and some
did not. . .
343. What is generally supposed to be the busiest time for the gambling-houses in your vicinity i llrom
6 o'clock to about half-past 8 o'clock at night. The market gardeners and others engaged in the suburbs
during the day come into town for an hour or two then for the purpose of playing.
344. Mr. McKillop.] Have you opium on your premises ? Yes.
345. Do Chinamen come there to smoke ? Yes.
346. Do you make a charge of so much a pipe ? The people who come bring their own opium.
347. Do white women and children indulge ? No.
348. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you allow women to come in and out of your house ? No.
349. How long have you lived in Sydney ? Seventeen years.
350. And have you been the occupant of this house the whole of that time ? I have been in my present
house for three years, and before that I carried on a similar business in Pitt-street.
351. How much a week do you get from your lodgers ? My rent is £2 10s., and I make on an average £4
or 30s. net profit from everything in connection with my house.
352. President.] Are you the proprietor of any other house ? No.
353. Do you know the police officer in charge of the district ? No.
354. Do you know any policemen at all ? Yes, I know some by sight, but not by name.
355. Have you ever spoken to any of them ? Yes ; they occasionally say " Good morning," or something
like that.
356. Do you know of any of the police being friendly with any of the proprietors of gambling-houses in
Goulburn-street ? No, I. do not.
357. Mr. McKillop.] Have you ever been summoned for keeping a common gaming-house ? Never.
358. Have you ever heard of any presents of furniture, jewelry, or money being made to policemen by
Chinamen in your locality ? No.
359. Are any" of your countrymen in Goulburn-street aware that you have come here this morning to give
evidence ? Yes, they all know.
360. Did they talk the matter over ? Yes ; some of them came to me and said, " What are you going to
tell the Commission to-morrow ?"
361. Mr. Abigail.] Before you stopped the fan-tan in your house, how many used to congregate there ?
From ten to twenty.
362. Up to that time, were you under the impression that it was not contrary to law to carry this thing
on ? Yes.
363. Was that the general impression among your countrymen until recently ? As nobody had come to
warn us of it we thought that we were not breaking the law, but after we received warning from the
police we knew that we were doing so.
364. But is it not a fact that it is still carried on in spite of that? Yes ; it is still carried on at certain
hours of the day.
365. Mr. Hawthorne.] Have you ever been annoyed or worried by the police in regard to the matter until
the last few weeks ? They would come occasionally, and tell us that we had better not gamble.
366. Mr. Quong Tart.] Did any policeman ever enter your house ? Yes ; policemen have been into my
house, and told me to knock off.
367. Have they ever been in whilst you were gambling ? Yes.
368. Mr. McKillop.] Did the police ever make a raid and snatch up the money that was on the fan-tan
board ? Sometimes when a raid of that kind is made the police and everybody present snatch whatever
they can lay their hands on.
369. You have seen the police do it? I know that that is how it is done, but I never saw it.
370. Still you know that the police do help themselves to the silver ? Yes, everybody makes a rush ; the
police and everybody who is gambling.
371. As a rule, how much is on the table — take the average amount ? There may be £1, 15s., or perhaps
much less.
372. Never more ? The most I have ever seen down at one time is £1.
373. Is it not a fact that the banker has sometimes £10 or £20 down ? He might have it on his person
but it would not be on the table.
374. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do the Chinamen in Goulburn-street knock about with white women? There are
some very filthy places down there where white women congregate, but I never go amongst them.
375. Do your countrymen go amongst them a great deal ? How can I tell if I do not go there myself.
376. Mr. McKillop.] Who told you that when these raids were being made by the police they took the
silver from the fan-tan board ? Several well-known gamblers have told me, but I cannot at present
recollect their names.
377. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do the Chinese drink much grog when they come to your place ? Yes. They
bring their own grog with them.
378. Mr. McKillop.] Do you know whether any of the people who visit your place are in an advanced
stage of venereal disease ? It would be very hard to say. If it were so they would not tell me.
379. But judging from their outer appearance ? I should not know anything about it.
380. Do you know any who are showing signs of leprosy ? I have seen such in the past, but do not know
where they are now. 381.
■to
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION' — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. -L"
381. Do they frequent the gambling-houses ? Yes ; but if any of them came to mine I should soon turn Y™^J^™'
them out. 4,'stl8Sl
382. How much opium is consumed in a night ? The people who visit me smoke from 6d. worth to 2s. p "'
worth apiece.
383. How many visit your place to smoke opium ? At present there are four or five ; there used to be
from seven to ten.
384. Do you know of anv fund that exists for the benefit of the police ? No.
385. Mr. Hawthorn e.~\ How many men visit your place on an average per diem ? The number varies
from ten to thirty. I daresay it would average twenty -five.
386. And what do you get from each man ? Those who board and lodge with me — about five altogether —
pay me 15s. a week each.
387. Mr. Qitony Tar6.~\ Are you the sole proprietor ? No ; I have two partners.
388. What are they doing ? Helping in the cookery.
389. Mr. Abigail^ So three of you divide that 30s. a week profit amongst you ? I made a mistake— there
would be from 25s. to 30s. a week for each partner.
390. So that, as a matter of fact, the profit is about £5 a week, not 30s. ? Yes ; the total profits would
amount to about that.
391. Are your partners connected with any other establishment than yours ? One of my partners is
simply a cook on the premises, the other has an interest in some gardens.
, 392. Do you know how many of your countrymen are living off similar businesses ? About four others
in the same block.
393. Do you know of any others in the city and suburbs carrying on boarding establishments? I only
know of those in G-oulburn-street.
394. President.] What are the names of the Chinese societies in town ? One society is called the Loon
yee Tong.
395. Do you know of any others ? There is the Bow on Tong and the Bow Sing Tong.
396. Any more? The only other is the Hing Sing Tong.
397. I want to know the objects of the Loon ye Tong ? Various gambling-houses connected with it knock
off a commission of so much in the shilling, and set it apart as a fund.
398. For what purpose ? It is for taking up and sending to China the bones of deceased Chinamen, and
also for sending home to China old and decrepit men.
399. Why should they create a fund of that nature out of the profits of gambling ? Because the money
is more easily got in that way than from the Chinamen privately or the stores.
400. Is this fund used for any other purpose ? Yes ; it is used for purposes of defence.
401. That is to say, the fund would be used to pay fines that might be inflicted by the magistrates ? As
far as that is concerned, I am not fully aware of it. Should money for the payment of fines or anything
else be necessary it would be subscribed, in the first instance, privately, but if they could not get enough
that way the balance might be taken from the fund.
402. Are there properly appointed officers in Sydney for the administration of the fund? The principal
stores would be the treasury.
403. And are proper books of account kept? I should not know about that, but probably books would
be kept.
404. The principal merchants then would be the treasurers ? Yes ; the principal storkeepers would hold
the money.
405. And who votes the money that would be used for defences ? Men would be elected at meetings of
the whole of the society for that purpose.
406. Have you ever attended a meeting of that kind yourself? Those who have notices sent to them
would go, and I have been.
407. Where was the meeting that you attended held ? I am not quite certain where it was, but I know
that one that I attended was held in a hotel parlor.
408. I think you must remember where the meeting was held ; — you are evidently concealing the truth ?
If it is a very large meeting it would be held in a hotel ; if a small one, in a storekeeper's place.
409. I want to know where that particular meeting was held, and you must tell me ? It was held at
Way Kee's.
410. When fines have been inflicted upon Chinamen, has the fine ever been paid out of that fund ? As
far as I know, if a fine is imposed a man will pay it himself, but if he cannot do that he goes to gaol,
unless his friends come round and pay it for him.
411. Do you remember the raid made a few weeks ago at Moy Ping's ? I have heard of it.
412. Was a meeting of this particular society, or of any other society, held immediately afterwards ? No.
413. You must speak the truth, now? Yes; there was a meeting at Sun Sam War's in Lower George-
street.
414. Were you present ? No ; I was not there myself.
415. Were any of your partners there ? Yes ; one of them went there to hear the proceedings.
416. You mean that he was at the meeting ? Yes.
417. I want to know what the business of that meeting was ? My partner came back, and told me that
the meeting had decided to gamble less on account of the action of the G-overnment, and for the present
to keep quiet.
418. At that meeting was there no provision made for paying the fines that had just been inflicted ? I do
not know anything about it. My partner did not mention it.
419. What is the name of that particular partner ? Ah Chung.
420. Did Ah Chung live with you ? Yes.
421. Can you tell us how much money that particular society has to its credit ; — has it much ? I do not
know.
422. How many members are in that society? I cannot tell exactly how many.
423. I do not want to know exactly, I want to know approximately ? It is very hard to say.
424. Two hundred, 300, or 400? I am frightened to say. There might be 200, or there might be 300,
members. If I knew I would tell you.
425. But you have not less than 200 ? 1 cannot say.
426. Do the members of the society subscribe directly to the funds ? Everybody subscribes. 427.
14 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Young Tow. 427. So that there is an income derived directly from the members, and also from the gambling-tables ? Yes.
/•— ^-*--"-n 428. What do you pay per week or per month ? Two shillings and sixpence, 3s., or 5s., according to
4 Sept., 1891. meana 0f the members.
429. "Weekly or monthly ? "We subscribed once, and the fund was invested in trade.
430. How many dead Chinamen have you sent home ? That information can be got better from those who
have charge of the funds.
431. Is Way Kee the chief man in that society? Yes ; he would know all about it.
432. He would have the accounts ? Yes.
433. Do you know the names of any other officers ? The Doon Goon community have the biggest say
in it, but people from the other parts of China have also a voice in the matter.
434. Way Kee can pay the money, I suppose, just as he pleases, for any purpose that he considers within
the scope of the society ? He cannot pay it out himself it would have to be voted by a meeting.
435. Is the money vested in Way Kee solely ? It is sometimes left in the sole charge of Way Kee for a
year, and then placed in the charge of somebody else for a year.
436. But if the money was vested with Way Kee solely he could pay it out for any purpose that he liked ?
Way Kee would have the money in the bank, but he could not use it for any purpose other than the
meeting directed. . , .„
437. After the meeting that your partner attended in Lower G-eorge-street, was any money paid out Ot
the fund? I am not aware that it was.
438. Are you quite sure ? I really do not know anything about it. tot
439. At that meeting was any questions asked about money being paid to the police ? I was not there
myself, so I could not say.
440. Is there a branch of that society in Goulburn-street, or anywhere near there ? No. (xoulburn-
street has no share in it.
441. Is all the money in the form of subscriptions from the gaming-tables paid direct to Way Kee ? About
two years ago it was made up monthly or weekly, and sent down, but lately I have not heard how the
money has been paid.
442. Now how about the Bow on Tong— what are its objects? That society is composed ot different
members of the Hang Shang community, who subscribe 5s. each. _ _
443. Per annum ? They only made one call, and then some gave £5. The lowest subscription taken
was 5s.
444. What are the objects of that society ? To send home old men and dead bones.
445. Are its objects then quite the same as those of the first society you mentioned ? As far as the old
men and dead bones are concerned its objects — yes.
446. Do they pay any of their funds to defend themselves from police proceedings ? No ; they only
pay away money in respect of old men and dead bones.
447. Who are its officers ? On Tik and Lee, in George-street North. t
448. What about the Hing Sing Tong ? It is similar in every respect to the society last named, but
consists of a different community.
419. Who are the officers ? Hang On & Co., storekeepers, Campbell-street.
450. And the funds are not used for defence purposes at all? No.
451. Have you or your partners ever been proceeded against by the police on any charge whatever? No.
452. Is it true that you have never paid the police any money ? Never.
453. Have you ever made them a present of any article of furniture, or jewelry ? No.
454. Tou never gave any article at all to the police ? No, nothing at all.
455. Mr. MoKillap.'] Do you or others engage young larrikins to tout for you, or watch for the police ?
No.
Chen Ah Teak, called :—
Chen 456. President.'] Where do you live ? At North Willoughby.
Ah Teat. 457, What business are you in? I am not in any business now. I keep a lot of gardeners.
' —^ — ■> 458. How many Chinamen have you in your employ ? I used to have half a dozen in some places, &
4 Sept., 1391. dozen in others, and smaller numbers elsewhere ; about fifty altogether.
459. Where are your gardens ? Some at Pennant Hills, some at Pearce's Corner, some at Gordon, and
sOme at Botany.
460.- Do you import these men from China yourself ? No ; I never imported any at all. I always
engaged them here.
461. How much a week do you pay them? I give each man £40 a year, except the head-men, who get
£50. . . - " ;
462. And they feed themselves ? No ? I pay for their food too. It costs about 10s. a week per man.
463. Do the men stay long in your employ ? Yes ; they stay for some years.
464. What do the men do on Saturday and Sunday when their work is done ; do they go into town ?
Some go into town and others remain in the gardens.
465. What do they do when they come to town ? I do not know.
466. Do they go to Lower George-street ? They go anywhere. I cannot say where they go.
467. Are they members of any Chinese society ? Well, I do not know what you mean.
468. _ You know that there are Chinese' societies in Sydney ? I have heard that there are, but I know
nothing about it. ' '
469. Do you not know that there are Chinese societies in Sydney — charitable societies, for sending your
countrymen's bones to China ? Tes. '
470. What is the name of one of them ? One is called the Chung Pae Tong, another the Loon Yee Tong,
and another the Bow Sing Tong. ' ;
471. Are you a member of the Loon Yee Tong? No.
472. Who is the principal man in it ? Way Kee and Yen Tah are the principal men.
473. How many members of it are there in Sydney and up the country ? Two or three thousand I should
think.
474. Are all the principal Chinese merchants members of that society ? Some of them are interested in
it and some are not. " 475.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
15
475. But the majority of them are ? Tes. Ai^k
476. From whence do they derive their income ? They get their money from subscriptions from indi- ^^J^J
vidual Chinamen, and never anything from the gambling-houses. Everyone gives a subscription to it. 4 g t> 1891>
477. I did not ask you anything about the gambling-houses, Chen Ah Teak? No. ''
478. This society gets its money by subscriptions ? Tes.
479. And some men who keep gambling-houses pay towards it because they are members ? Tes.
480. Are you quite sure that some of the gambling-houses do not pay a commission out of their profits to
it ? I do not know personally about that.
481. Do you ever go to the Chinese gambling-places ? No.
482. Tou are a married man, married to a white lady ? Tes.
483. And you have a family ? Tes. ' ,
484. What does this society spend its funds upon ? To send home the bones of their countrymen, so
that they can go and pray over them ; also to send old men, blind men, and lame men home.
485. How many men's bones has the society sent for the last ten years? Nearly 500.
486. How much does it cost to send a man's bones home ? They spend sometimes nearly £100.
487. But then they send a number of them together? Tes ; it sometimes costs £10 to remove a man's
bones from the country.
488. Are you a member of this society ? I was two years ago.
489. Do they pay money for the Chinese when they are fined at the Police Court ? Never ; this money
is always for the use of the poor people I have referred to.
490. Then if a poor Chinaman is fined at the Police Court, this society will pay his fine ? No ; this
money must all be spent upon sending poor people and old people home to China.
491. Where is the money belonging to the society kept ? It is all put into the bank.
492. Who is the treasurer ? The money is all kept at the big Chinese stores.
493. Do you still pay your subscription ? Tes.
494. Do you never attend the meetings ? N o ; never.
495. Tou do not bother about it at all ? No.
49G . Tou lived in Lower George-street a long time ? Tes.
497. When did you leave there ? Nearly six years ago.
498. Do you know that a great many Chinese shops in Lower George-street are used for gambling ? I
have heard that it is so. I have seen them sometimes in passing; but I never noticed it much.
499. Can you tell me how these Chinese gambling-shops are managed ;— Is one man, or are several men
the owners ? I do not know ; I never went into the gambling-houses at all much.
500. Some of your countrymen keep gambling-houses; — Tou know, I suppose ? Tes ; some of them do ;
I do not. know how many keep them though.
501. Do you know if they make much money ? I do not know ; I do not think they do. Some of them
are very poor. I lend them money sometimes, and never get it back again.
502. Sometimes you lend money to a man who keeps a gambling-house ? No ; I never lend money to
gambling-shops.
503. Now, do the men who run these gambling-shops make much money ? Well, there is a company,
and they make money.
504. Are any of the Chinese merchants members of these companies ? Tes ; Wong Lee Hing, who went
home to China.
505. Did he make lots of money ? Tes ; he was a very rich man.
506. Can you tell me how he made his money ? He made some through gambling, and some through •
business.
507. Some of the Chinese merchants in Lower George-street are interested in the gambling-houses now ; —
you know that ? I do not know that any are now.
508. Perhaps you do not know for certain, but you have reason to believe that it is so ? There are
some, I think, who have.
509. Is Way Kee a Chinese merchant ? Tes.
510. He is also a partner in some of these gambling-houses ? 1 do not think he gambles at all.
511. Perhaps not personally, but he is connected with a company ? I never heard it.
512. But do you not think so ? I never hear anything about that.
513. Have you not heard that Way Kee was interested in some of these gambling-houses ? I never heard
that. Way Kee lets houses.
514. Wnere are Way Kee's houses ? In Lower George-street.
515. AH of them in Lower George-street ? I think so.
516. Any in Goulb urn-street ? No ; I do not think so.
517. Do you know any of the police officers in Lower George-street ? Tes ; I know some of them
very well.
518. Is it true that Way Kee pays money to the police, or gives them diamond rings, or presents of
furniture to stop away ? I do not think so.
519. But do you not know very well that some of the gamblers — perhaps not Way Kee — give presents to
the police ? I never heard anything about it.
520. Are you quite sure that you never heard anything about it ? Tes ; but it might be so.
521. Do you ever go down Lower George-street now ? Tes ; but not very often.
522. Where do you buy your goods ? Prom Goon Ping's store in Goulburn-street.
523. What part of Goulburn-street is that ? No. 52 on the left-hand side going up.
524. Is fan-tan played on his premises ? No, he is an honest man and a big merchant.
525. Does he own any houses ? Tes.
526. Is he one of a company engaged in the running of gambling-houses ? No.
527. Tou know Inspector Atwill ? No.
528. Did you every make him a present of anything ? No.
529. Did any of your countrymen make him presents ? I do not know.
530. What are these other societies that you have spoken of — are they all the same as the first ? What
are the objects of the Bow Sing Tong. To take dead men's bones back to China.
531. Who is the chief man in the society ? Tin War, and On Tik and Lee.
533.
16 CIIIXKSE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCF,
Chen 532. Where does Tin War live ? In Lower George-street.
Ah Teak. 533, Is fan- tan played in his shop ? No.
C^"*"-*^ 534. Where does On Tik and Lee live ? In George-street.
4, Sept., 1891. 533_ what -g he in ijU8jneBB p £_ merchant.
536. Does he bring a lot of Chinese out from China ? No ; he brings a lot of goods, but not men.
537. Is ho interested in any gambling-shop ? No.
538. How many men has he in his employment? Nearly half-a-dozen, I think.
539. What are' the objects of the Chung Pue Tong? They are similar.
540. Who is the chief man in that society ? Bow Loong and Wing Ling.
541. Where does he live? In Lower George-street.
542. What is his business ? He keeps a grocer's shop.
543. And is gambling carried on in his house ? No ; never.
544. When were you in Lower George-street last ? I pass through every week.
545. When were you there last ? I was at Sam War's store the other day, just to talk to him.
516. Did not he talk to you about the Chinese Gambling Commission? Oh, no ; he never said anything
about it. We did not take any notice of it.
547. How long were you talking to Sam War ? Oh ; not very long.
548. What was the subject of your conversation ? We only talked business.
549. When did you see' Way Kee last ? I see him very seldom. The last time was about two months ago.
I am very busy as a rule, and cannot talk to these people.
550. Is there any opium-smoking going on at North Shore ? No ; I never engage an opium-smoker.
551. Mr. Quong Tart.} There is a great complaint about gambling ? Yes. tt
552. You are an old resident in Sydney ? Yes.
553. You know who is the largest gambler in Sydney? No ; I do not.
554. Mr. Hawthorne] What did you come here to day for ? Because my countryman wanted an inter-
preter, so he came over to North Willoughby for me early this morning.
555. Do you charge him any money for coming ? No ; my countrymen are all poor people, and I do not
charge them any money.
556. Mr. Quong Tart.} Can you assist us in putting down the evils of gambling and opium-smoking ? I
do not think we can stop them.
TUESDAY, 8 SEPTEMBEB, 1891.
The Mayor of Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-President.
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. Jack Armstrong called and examined : —
Mr. J. 557. President.] Where do you reside, Mr. Armstrong ? At 121, George-street North.
Armstrong. 558. What business do you carry on ? That of a tobacconist and hairdresser.
,-— ^-"— «— >. 559. Is vour place of business within what is known as the Chinese locality — that is to say, Lower
8 Sept., 1891. George-street, or George-street North? It is nearly right opposite the Naval stores.
560. You are, I believe, President of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Yes ; I am.
561. Is that the correct title of the League? Yes.
562. WThat are the objects of your League ? The objects are set forth in the prayer of the petition on
the subject, which is signed by all the shopkeepers in that particular neighbourhood, and to which about
seventy-five signatures are attached. Perhaps I had better give you the' heading to the petiiion.
563. Tell us what are the objects of the League in the first place ; — can you not state shortly what are the
objects of the League ? Yes ; the objects of the League are, by every legitimate means in our power, to
remove from our midst the Chinese gambling-dens.
564. How many members are there in your League ? Seventy-five members.
565. They are all Europeans with the exception of one — Mr. Goldtown, a Chinese merchant ?
566. Is Goldtown a Chinese name ? No ; I may explain that, as I understand, his name means that in
English, and by advice, he called himself Goldtown.
567. I suppose the Anti-Chinese Gambling League have made inquiries as to the existence of the
nuisance connected with the Chinese gambling-dens in that part of Sydney ?
568. The majority of the people living in that end of the town are perfectly conversant with, the mode of
life of the Chinese living in their midst ?
569. What I want to know is this : Does the League confine its agitation in this matter to the northern
part of the city ? Yes ; we intended at the time to extend it further, but it was ultimately decided to
limit it to that particular part of the city.
570. Then we are to understand that the scope of the inquiry is limited to the northern part of the
city ? Yes.
571. How many shops are there in the lower part of George-street occupied by Chinese and used by
them as gambling-dens? To the best of my knowledge, there are thirty-six shops occupied by Chinamen
in Lower George-street, and twenty-eight I believe to be occupied by Chinese for gambling purposes.
572. What is the average rental paid by these Chinese who occupy these gambling-dens ? I cannot give
you exact information on that point.
573. Can you not form an idea approximately ? I believe the rents are supposed to average about £6 a
week. It would be impossible for anyone to say how much they pay exactly unless one collected the
rents or did some business with them in that way.
574. Did you say to the Premier during the interview on the 30th July that the landlords of these
tenements were paid by the Chinese tenants from £6 10s. to £7 10s. a week ? It is very probable I did.
I have not got the newspaper reports myself.
575
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 17
575. Then, are we to understand that that was not from information within your own actual knowledge Mr- J-
or experience ? It was from hearsay. I was going to ask you if you will allow me — as you appear to be Armstrong,
quoting from newspaper reports — to put myself clear before the Commission. In the Daily Telegraph C^T^^rm
report of the interview with the Premier T think I am reported correctly ; in the other papers I am ep *'
reported as having made a statement about Chinese gambling in reference to the 2d. in the Is. "What I
really said to Sir Henry Parkes was that the Chinese merchants had made that statement, and I reported
that statement to the Premier.
576. That is a small matter ; but you know of your own knowledge, T understand, that these shops are
not carried on for purposes of general business, and that nothing is sold in them, or offered for sale, in
fact, except a little tobacco, perhaps, and so forth ? Yes.
577. That the bulk of these thirty-six shops you mentioned are used as gambling-dens, and are not
conducted for purposes of general business ? Yes ; I know that perfectly well. Most of them have
nothing to sell.
578. Do you know, of your own knowledge, that people assemble on these premises day and night for
the purpose of gambling ? I know that, yes.
579. That is of your own knowledge ? Yes. I will tell you how I know it.
580. I think you need not explain. If you know it of your own knowledge that is sufficient for our pur-
poses. What sort of people generally attend these gambling shops during the daytime ? "Well, I have
known several officials employed in the Post Office attend there to my own knowledge. They belonged
to the sorting department, and knock off work about 8 o'clock and return about 12 o'clock. The interval
they would put in in these Chinese gambling-places.
581. "What other classes of people attend these places ? All sorts, including many of the respectable
portion of the community — what would be called respectable people.
582. Can you not give me an idea of what classes of people are seen going there ? Well, the respectable
class of people are not seen to go there.
583. Then 1 want to get at the class of people you do see ? There are wharf-labourers, coal-lumpers,
seamen, and others.
584. All white people ? There are coloured men, too, among them occasionally.
585. You have been speaking of the attendance in the daytime ; in the evening, I suppose, the attend-
ance is very much larger ? Yes ; I should say so, considerably.
586. The attendance is not by any means confined to the Chinese ? No ; not at all.
587. Do many people assemble on the footways outside the doors of these gambling-houses ? Not latterly.
588. Up to what time did they do so ? Up to the inception of the League it was a common practice.
589. Can you tell me the date of the formation of the League ? About the 14th July, 1891 ; but I think
there was a meeting held previous to that.
590. What rent do you pay for your premises, Mr. Armstrong ? £3 5s. a week.
591. How many feet of ground does your house stand on? I have no idea. Of course, latterly there
has been a big extension. It is part of a block owned by Alderman Playfair.
592. You occupy a shop owned by Mr. Alderman Playfair? Yes.
593. How long have you been a tenant of that ? Very nearly two years. I was in business before that
in the same street, further down.
594. You say you pay £3 5s. a week ; was that the rent you went in at originally ? Ye3 — £3 5s. a week.
595. Are you satisfied with that rental ? Well, I suppose every tenant would be willing to have a
reduction in his rent.
596. I ask you, as a reasonable man, whether you are satisfied that the amount you pay per week is a fair
rental ? Well, I think the rent is too much at the present time. Some time ago it was a fair rent, but it
is too much now.
597. Have the profits of your business fallen off during the last three months, as compared with the
first three months of your tenancy ? I practically stand at the present time £100 worse off than I was
twelve months ago.
598. What I desire to know is whether your business has fallen off, and if so, to what extent during the
last three months, as compared with the first three months ? I can scarcely answer that question, as I
was running two shops at that time.
599. Has there been any diminution in your takings ? Yes ; to a very great extent.
600. That is in the last three months, as compared with the first three months of your tenancy ? Yes.
There has also been a diminution in the business of other persons down there. But I should say this is
also traceable to other reasons besides the existence of the Chinese down there.
601. Then you do not attribute it to the existence of the Chinese gambling dens altogether ? No.
602. Do boys or young girls go into these gambling-dens to buy tickets in the lotteries carried on there ?
Not to my personal knowledge. But I have known boarding-house keepers' wives send their boarders
down there to buy tickets in the lotteries. That is, I know it from hearsay.
603. How do you know that they are sent to buy tickets ? Prom the persons going to get the tickets.
604. Can you give us the names of the principal gambling den proprietors in Lower G-eorge-street ?
Moy Ping is supposed to be the principal one, I believe.
605. How many people should you say assemble in his place of business in the daytime? No one I.
believe would be able to give you that information unless they went inside, and I have not been inside
the premises to see.
606. Can you not give us any idea as to the numbers ? No ; they go inside and disappear very quickly.
607. Yes ; but I suppose you see them going in? Not necessarily. The majority go into these places —
the respectable portion — very quickly, as I have said ; they do not hang about at all.
608. I want to get an idea of the profits derived from these shops if I can ; that is why I ask you the
question ? Well, an idea may be gathered from an incident I can mention. A man named Dawson, a
member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League, has a shop almost immediately next the "Bopemaker's
Arms." Some time back the landlord of these premises would not let them to Chinamen. In consequence
of this a Chinaman on one occasion approached Dawson, and said to him, " You take a shop, Dawson,
and I will allow you 30s. bonus weekly if the shop is taken in your name, and I am allowed to use it for
gambling." The shop is two doors from the " Bopemaker's Arms," and lets for £4 10s. a week. It was
originally a shooting-saloon. 609.
272— C
18 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — SUXL'TES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. J. 609. Do many assemble outside the doors of these gambling-dens ? The larrikin element do to a large
Armstrong. extent.
8 S~*t^l891 ^i0" ^^ w^a* 0DJeet do they hang about there ? Well, they seem to be rather proud of it.
eP •> • mi put for wnat; reason do they hang about these dens ? Waiting for the banks to bo drawn.
612. Are you aware of ladies and respectable persons going down George-street being insulted by the
Chinese in that locality ? I have not seen them ; but I know of several ladies, friends of my wife, who
will not go along that part of George-street, and go up Pitt-street instead.
613. Is that because they fear being insulted ? It is principally because of the dirt, I think ; but
members of our League have stated that their wives have been insulted. They have told me so.
614. You are aware, I suppose, that ladies will not go down to Circular Quay by way of that part of
G-eorge-street ? No.
615. Have you noticed a falling off in the traffic in that respect ? Yes ; there has been a great decline
during the last three years.
016. To what do you attribute the disinclination on the part of these ladies and the respectable part of
the public to go down Lower George-street ? The plain way they put it is that they " will not go through
Chinatown."
617. I want the principal reason, if possible for this objection to going through that quarter ; I under-
stood you to say it was because they were insulted, or subject to insult from the Chinese there ? I will
not say absolutely that they are insulted.
618. Is it because of the bad smells arising from opium-smoking, do you think ? You can detect the smell
of opium-smoking pretty strongly there at times.
619. Then you think this disinclination on the part of the respectable portion of the communities, and of
ladies to go along the northern end of George-street, is on account of that part of the city being occupied
principally by Chinese residents ? Yes, that is to say, the Chinese gambling-houses.
620. Did you tell the Colonial Secretary that your own business had fallen off 15 per cent, during the
last two years ? Yes ; I dare say I did.
621. Did you say that many of the Chinese were very rude to women passing down the street ? Yes.
622. And you know that of your own knowledge ? With regard to that, I was simply stating, what we,
as members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League had frequently referred to in conversation.
623. And what you had observed, I suppose ? Well, yes ; it was a matter of pretty general comment
among members of the League.
624. As a matter of fact, do they not avoid George-street North, or that particular part of George-street
under consideration, because they are liable to insult and annoyance from the Chinese residents there
who inhabit these gambling-dens ? Yes ; friends of my own have told me of instances.
625. I suppose they would have no reason to tell you so, unless it had actually occurred? Certainly
not ; they would not have made statements of that kind, without they had been insulted.
626. Have you any objections to these premises, you have more particularly referred to, on the score of
the lack of sanitation— I mean as to these thirty-six gambling-houses ? I cannot say myself ; I have
never been in them. I speak entirely from the outside appearances.
627. That is to say, I suppose, the exterior walls are dirty ; the windows not clean. Your remarks apply
purely to the outside ? Yes.
628. Do you know anything about the custom of the Chinese, with regard to women down there ? I have
seen Chinamen with European women, but for what purpose, I cannot say.
629. The proprietors of these gambling-houses, do they keep women either on their premises, or any-
where else, do you know ? I only know from hearsay.
630. Has your Society made particular inquiry as to that phase of the Chinese question ? No ; I
think not.
631. Has your Society any official report to the effect that the Chinese gaming-house keepers keep
women either on the premises or at other places for immoral purposes ? Some other members of the League
will be able to tell you more about that.
632. You are President of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Yes.
633. And have access to all documents in connection with it ? Yes.
634. Have you any reports of the kind I have mentioned ? Yes; from members of the League there
have been reports.
635. Do you mean written reports that come to the Society in the ordinary course of business ? No.
636. Have you no record of any such reports in the minute-book ? No ; only the statements which have
been made from time to time.
637. Just occasional statements ? Yes.
638. You do not know of your own knowledge that the proprietors of these gaming-houses keep women
for the use of the public ? For the public.
639. Or for their own use ? There are some houses in Harrington-street where they have women it is
a well-known fact.
640. What I want to know is, do these gaming-house proprietors keep women on their premises, or any-
where else, for the use of their own countrymen, or for Europeans ? I cannot say myself.
641. Do you know anything about the circumstances under which the ordinary Chinese come to the
Colony ? No ; I do not.
642. What I mean is, do they come here at their own expense, or are they imported, or brought here at
the expense of other persons ? At the present time I know a system of " swapping " is carried on pretty
extensively.
643. What is that ? Say that a vessel leaves China, and some man wishes to stay in this Colony. When
the ship is sailing another Chinaman is put in his place, and the other (that is the one who wishes to
remain) will stop here. In that way they manage to evade the poll-tax. I know myself this is done.
644. What I want to know is whether the Chinese merchants in Lower George-street import their
countrymen to labour for them ? I believe so. Many of them are simply slaves.
645. Can you give us any information as to how many people reside in the gambling houses in Lower
George-street? There is only one house you can see into, and there are forty or fifty in that house. It
is down below the level of the street, next to the " Blue Anchor Hotel."
646. Is that used as a gambling den ? I have been told that it is principally a boarding-house.
647.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. 19
647. Is there any opium-smoking carried on in those gambling-houses as a rule, do you know? That I Mr- J-
cannot tell you, as I have never been inside them. Armsrong.
648. What work has the Anti-Chinese Gambling League done since it was established ? "We tried in gZ^iggi
every way to approach the police in the matter at first, and asked their advice and assistance ; but the p ''
police said they were powerless to aid us. "We then approached the Members for West Sydney, to ask
them to bring the matter before Parliament. "We had an interview with the Labour Party in the House,
and they appointed certain Members of their body to introduce a deputation to Sir Henry Parkes. This
was subsequently done, representations were made to the Premier on the subject, who said, he would look
into this matter, and I believe this Commission of Inquiry is the outcome of that action.
649. The Anti-Chinese Gambling League was only established in July last ? Tes.
650. And is that all you have done in the matter up to the present time ? Tes.
651. Tour object, mainly, was to galvanise the Government into some kind of action I suppose ? Tes ;
we got up petitions on the subject, and so forth.
652. That was all since July last ? Tes.
653. And before that, were members of the League in a private capacity active in trying to get the police
to suppress the evil ? Tes.
654. That action on the part of private residents generally would go back for some years probably ? Tes.
655. How long have you been living in Lower George-street yourself ? I have been living in Lower
George-street actually for twelve years.
656. Did you ever communicate with the police yourself on the subject of this evil ? No.
657. That is not until you became a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? No.
658. Do you know any one who did communicate with the police on the subject ? I know several
members of the League.
659. "When were the police first communicated with to obtain their assistance in suppressing these Chinese
gambling-houses ? I could not give you that exactly.
660. Can you not tell us approximately in what year ? "Well, one gentleman says that he has been
speaking to the police for the last ten years.
661. Have you ever sought to ascertain why the police were apparently so inactive in removing this
nuisance? I cannot say. I have myself spoken to Inspector Atwill on the subject of these lotteries.
662. "When did you speak to the inspector ? "Within this last month .
663. That is not what I want ; I want to get far back if I can in relation to this matter — I should like
to go back some two years or twelve months at least? I cannot speak for that time.
664. Cannot you give any information at all to explain the continued neglect on the part of the police
during the last two or three years to remedy this crying evil ? No ; I can only speak from what I have
seen.
665. That is exactly what I want to get at ; to what do you attribute this inactivity ? Well, the police
say they cannot do it ; but I think they could.
666. Then you have every reason to believe that the police have been culpably negligent in the matter
of suppressing the evil for the last two or three years ? Well, no ; I cannot say that if what the police
assert be true.
667. But what would your reasoning teach you ; — what would you think, or have you any other reason
to believe that they have been culpably negligent during the last two or three years ? I should say they
have.
668. It has been a glaring evil ? Certainly ; and it has been on the increase until recently.
669. Have you ever heard it suggested that the police have been interested in shutting their eyes to the
existence of this evil? Tes ; I have heard it asserted by members of the League.
670. Do you think it a reasonable thing to assert? Tes ; I think so.
671. Has it ever been alleged, to your knowledge, that the police take bribes from the Chinese who keep
these gambling dens ? I have heard it stated by several ; but I do not think that anybody would be able
to prove that they have.
672. I do not want you to prove it ; that is for us to do if it is possible to be done ; — what I mean is, is
it a matter of belief among persons most likely to know, that the police have received bribes from these
persons ? If bribes have been given, I do not suppose any third party has seen it.
673. But I understand you have every reason to believe that there must have been some corruption in
the ranks of the police force to have permitted this evil to exist so long without any active attempt being
made to eradicate it ; that, I think, is a fair way of putting the case ? I should say so, certainly.
674. Now, I want you to consider this point ; — if there has been corruption in the police force, must it
not have extended right through the ranks in order to be successful, that is to say, from the ordinary
constable on the beat up to the inspector or sergeant of police immediately over the constables on the
beat ? Well, you see, there are certain regular policemen on that beat.
675. Never mind about that ; must not the corruption have been general in order to have permitted this
thing to go on without check for such a length of time ? I would sooner not express any opinion upon
that.
676. But I must ask you to ; — I want to know whether, in your opinion, if there has been corruption in
the police, it must not have been fairly general ? That I cannot express an opinion about, for I have no
idea whether corruption has been general throughout the police force or not.
677. Tou know nothing about that question ? No.
678. Tou have not even a vague suspicion of its existence at all ? No.
679. Tou are not able to answer the question I put to you as to corruption in the police force with
regard to that district must have been general to be effective ? No.
680. It is an important question this, and you practically refuse to give any answer to it ? I have said I
do not know because the police change so often there.
681. I am not asking you about that — I am asking you whether for the corruption to be general, it must
not have been general ? I do not think it would require to be general.
682. Then supposing the case of a policeman to be on duty there at night, who is incorruptible, and he
sees gambling going on in these houses ? Tes.
683. Would he not, in the conscientious discharge of his duty, report that to his superior officer ?
Certainly.
684.
20 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. J. (J8 k Do you know if any such reports have been made by an ordinary policeman in that locality to his
Armstrong. Buperior officer ? Not that I am aware of.
sTt~i89l ®^' "^° Tou know ^ anv °f these Chinese merchants or proprietors of gambling-houses keep women —
eP "' * their own mistresses — in elaborately-furnished houses in any part of the locality known as The Rocks ? I
believe there are several such houses, but I have never been inside of them.
686. They keep women there ? Yes.
687. Their mistresses ? They may be married to them for all I know.
688. Tou have never been inside you say, and so cannot speak from actual personal experience ? No ;
I do not know of my own knowledge, but most of the Chinese are rather fond of European ladies ; they
seem to like them better, though, for the matter of that, they have no chance of getting their own country
women here.
689. Do boys attend these gambling-houses in Lower George-street much ? I think they do, because I
know when they come into my shop they ask in getting change for coppers. I have asked them why they
want coppers, and they will reply, " Oh, to go up to the Chinamen's and make a rise."
630. Do you know within your own experience whether the wives of sailors or wharf-labourers, or white
people generally attend at these houses to get their husbands to come away because of the money they
spend in them ? I have been told so.
691. Is it within your own knowledge ? No.
692. Do you know who are the landlords of these gaming-houses ? I believe five of the shops belong to
Mr. Beale.
693. Tou say five of them are owned by Mr. Beale ; — do you know who is the largest owner of these
places ? I could not say that. The next is owned by Mr. Hirnmeloch.
694. Do you know any other landlords of the tenements about there ? There are some houses on the
opposite side of the road, but they are not occupied by Chinese. Alderman Playfair owns some houses
in Hatherton-street and Playfair-street. He is my landlord, but he does not own any shops of the class
you mention.
695. Within the last two or three years, have the police within your knowledge made any raids upon these
places — these gambling-dens ? Tes ; they did make a raid about two and a half years ago.
696. "Were they successful on that occasion ? Yes ; and then there was this one they made recently.
697. They made a raid on these dens about two and a half years ago, and also within the last two
months ? Yes.
698. Have you ever heard it alleged that any of the landlords of these places have given the police
bribes ? No.
699. Or that they have used their influence with the police tj induce them not to interfere with the
Chinese gambling dens ? Well, I have heard a statement made by a member of the League that a police
officer in the district said, referring to the action of the League, that he would be a d fool or a b
fool (I forget which) to interfere with vested interests.
700. Did he refer to any particular landlord? No ; I do not think he referred to anyone in particular.
He spoke of " vested interests" in the neighbourhood.
701. Is it true that you told the Premier that these gaming-house proprietors paid £G 10s. to £7 10s. per
week rent ? I may have said that. I have heard so.
702. But you do not know it as a matter of fact, is that the case — I mean from your own personal
knowledge? No.
703. What would be a fair rental for these houses, supposing they were not used as gambling-dens ?
About £3 a week, I should say.
704. That is a very great difference ; — are there any shops to let now near Bridge-street in George-street ?
One has been vacated by Chinese recently, and, on the other side of the street, there are two vacant now,
and one next the " Bopemakers' Arms."
705. There are four or five shops vacant there now ? Yes.
706. Who are the landlords of those houses ? One would be the shop in Beale's block.
707. Mr. Beale would let to Chinese, would he not? He has done so. When he bought that block * * *
708. I mean now ? Yes ; they are all let to Chinese.
709. The landlord of the other houses you have spoken of ; — would he let to Chinese at all ? No ; that is,
as far as I have been told by the people tenanting them.
710. Has the Anti-Chinese Gambling League confined itself to Lower George-street and that locality ?
Yes ; we intended to take the whole of the city at first.
711. But you have practically confined your attention to Lower George-street ? Yes.
712. And to nothing but the suppression of this gambling nuisance ? Yes ; we kept solely to that.
713. And your Society has no evidence in its possession as to the police having been successfully bribed
to ignore the existence of this evil in your midst ? Well, no. We have only the statement made by Mr.
Goldtown to us, and which was referred to in the interview that the deputation had with the Premier.
714. Can you state shortly what Mr. Goldtown informed your Society of in that regard ? Mr. Gold-
town attended at one of our meetings one evening, and represented that he was a Consul of China, and
represented about twenty-five Chinese merchants in the city, who desired him to attend the League for
the purpose of assisting in its objects. He also informed us that while in China, before coming here at
all, he had attempted to stop the practice of gambling, ond told us of the laws relating to gambling in
China, and the punishment imposed upon persons found guilty of it. He is a very fair speaker. He after-
wards made a statement to members of the League that he knew 2d. in the Is. was stopped from the prize
fund for the purpose of bribing the police. He said it was a fund that was collected weekly by certain
Chinese from the different gambling-houses for that purpose. He said he knew the man who actually collected
the bribes, and the Chinese admitted this. That it was collected of the purpose of bribing the police.
715. Where does Mr. Goldtown reside? At 4L7b, or 497a, Pitt-street.
716. Is it true that he is leaving the Colony ? There was a rumour to that effect, but one of the police
told me that he is in Goulburn-street still.
717. Has he reported himself to you since the appointment of the Commission ? Yes.
718. When did you see him last ? It is about a month ago I should say.
719. What conversation had you with him then ? I called at his place myself with another member of the
League. I omitted to state that he offered to pay the League £25 on behalf of twenty-five Chinese gentlemen
to
CHINESE GAMBLING! COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 21
to assist in carrying out the objects of the League. This was at the interview I have previously referred Mr. J.
to. He tendered the money in my presence to our treasurer, Mr. Buchanan. After thinking the matter Armstrong-
over, I said it would not be right, that it might injure the standing of the League to take the money. I „ jTV^^oi
therefore said, '■ No, if you want to enter the League, you can pay the same fee as the other members, ep ''
2s. 6d." To this be said that they did not wish their name3 to be mentioned, as the Chinese had a secret
society, and that their lives might be endangered.
720. Did he say anything about offering money to the police to make them shut their mouths? No;
that was not at the meeting, and merely in general conversation, when six or seven members of the League
and myself were present. On the last occasion he said any time he was required, if a telegram or a letter
were sent, he would be happy to come down.
721. Do you, personally, know anything about presents having been made by Chinese to policemen ? I
have heard it asserted lots of times.
722. Do you know any policemen who have been in receipt of presents ? No, I cannot say I do.
723. Have you any information at all that would assit us in tracing any action of the kind? In reference
to the police ?
724. I want to ascertain, if possible, the case of a Chinaman who has made a present, and a policeman who
has accepted one, or any information that will lead us to suspect, or implicate a particular policeman ; —
can you tell the Commission anything which will assist us in that direction ? Well ; some years ago a
policeman received a gold watch and chain, but that was publicly.
725. There was no sc andal about tbat? No ; he had lived a long time in the district.
726. Ten years ago I suppose gambling was not so ripe in the district ? No. I should say it has increased
50 per cent, in ten years.
727. Do you know any of the policemen in Lower George-street personally? I know all of them.
728. Can you tell me the names of any of the police who were on duty in Lower George-street five
years ago, that is the police on duty during the day or night time ? During; the last three vears I could say.
729. Well ? Constable Quealy.
730. How long has he been stationed there ? Three or four years.
731. Did you know him four years ago ? Yes.
732. Was he a poor man then? That I cannot say.
733. Tou do not know anything about his circumstances ? No.
734. Do yon think he was the possessor of £1,000 then ? I could not say, he might have been. But I
believe he was working on the wharfs before he joined the police force.
735. Was he constantly on duty in Lower George-street ? Yes.
736. He has retired from the police force now, I think ? He was dismissed.
737. What was he dismissed for ? For drunkenness on duty, I believe.
738. You know nothing about his circumstances now ? Not much. I believe he applied for a hotel
license on Thursday week, and it was refused.
739. Where is the hotel he applied for ? He applied twice, I think, the first was in Balmain, and, as I
have said, it was refused ; but ho applied again for one in Woolloomooloo, and I believe it was granted.
I have heard so.
740. Do you know whether he is the possessor of any considerable sum of money ? I heard that he had
£600.
741. Who told you that ? A member of our League — T forget who at this moment.
742. Have you any idea as to how he became possessed of this £600 — have you had any suspicion ? I
cannot say ; of course I may surmise.
743. Have you any suspicion ? No.
744. Do you think he could have saved it out of his earnings as a policeman during two or three years ?
No, I should say not, certainly. It would not be possible. But he might have got it other ways, by
gambling, backing horses, or speculating in other ways.
745. Have you seen Quealy lately ? Yes.
746. Did he say anything about the matter of the police receiving presents ? He did say he would have
something to say about the case. But whether his information would have a tendency to strengthen the
case as against the police, I do not know. We had no conversation about money matters at all, or
anything of that sort.
747. Mr. Abigail.'] You were among those who formed the deputation to the Colonial Secretary ? I was.
748. Then I suppose you heard four or five members of that deputation make statements about the police
receiving bribes of watches, diamond rings, and so on ? I heard Mr. Davies make a statement there
something to that effect ; but it was treated as a joke. Sir Henry Parkes laughed. Mr. Davies said it
was an old joke about a policeman getting a watch in three months from the time of his entering the
force. But it appeared he was not satisfied with a watch, but wanted a diamond ring. It was more of a
joke than anything else, I thought.
749. You have seen the report of the deputation in the Daily Telegraph? Yes.
750. In that report you are accredited with stating that a Chinese merchant informed you, that, in these
Chinese gambling dens they stopped 2d. in the Is. in order to create a fund for bribing the police ? Yes.
751. And Mr. Goldtown is the Chinese gentleman referred to ? Yes.
752. Is he a merchant ? Yes ; he was described on his card as a silk merchant.
753. And I think he told you that he represented twenty-five Chinese merchants ? Yes.
754. Did the league take a record as to who those gentlemen were ? No, he told us that they would not
allow their names to be mentioned, on account of the probability of the Chinese taking measures to do
them injury.
755. However, you were so satisfied with Goldtown as to allow him to become a member ? We had
admitted him before. We were willing to take anyone into the league who had the same interest as we had.
756. Have you taken any trouble lately to ascertain whether this man is still in Sydney ? Not recently.
I may say that I went with another member of the league, Mr. Christensen, in company with Mr. Davis,
M.L.A., to Mr. Tart, to ask what status he, Mr. Goldtown, occupied. Mr. Tart said he believed he was a
respectable man. We went on one occasion to see Mr. Goldtown, as we had been advised to get him to
make an affidavit before a Justice of the Peace, but he was not at home. He came down in a cab that
night, and we asked him whether he would make the affidavit. He replied no ; that now there was a
Commission appointed, he would verify everything he had said. 757.
22 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MTNTTTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. J. 757. You are credited with saying that bad smells and filth prevail in this part of George-street, as well
Armstrong. as gambling? No doubt.
8 S ^T^lSO]" f^i- Tou know that of your own knowledge ? Yes.
' ep ■' ' 75s. And opium smoking ? That I do not know, but I believe there is a good deal of it.
759. Do you know the smell of it? No, but the smell of Chinese tobacco is very bad.
700. You are also credited with saying that ladies were frequently insulted passing up and down that
part of George-street ? It was a matter of common conversation among members of the League. I do
not speak from personal experience.
761. You never saw any conduct of the kind yourself, but have heard other people speak of it ? Yes ; I
have frequently heard it asserted.
762. Do you know, of your own knowledge, of any policeman receiving a bribe in the shape of a gold
watch, or a diamond ring, or a piece of furniture ? No.
7G3. Do you know any member of your League who could give direct information on that question — that
is, as to bribery of the police ? Well, I do not know whether you would call it bribery, but there is a
member of our League who has stated that two plain-clothes constables have been in the habit of going into
an oyster saloon in George-street with Chinese, and having supper ; and I suppose the majority of people
would imagine that the Chinese and not the police paid for it. I told the Inspector of Police shortly
after the occurrence.
764. You reported it ? I told him myself within the same month.
765. What is the name of the member of the League who gave this information ? Williams, a jeweller.
766. Where does he live ? Next door to On Chong, in George-street. He is a watchmaker and jeweller.
He told me he had seen them there several times.
767. Has the League considered the present law of the Colony in its application to this evil of Chinese
gambling ? Yes. I have spoken to Inspector Atwill myself, in regard to this lottery business, and he
said there was no " contingency " to pay, and consequently the police had no power. I said, " You can
see it marked up in plain English, five marks, Is. 2d., six marks so much, and so on." But I contend that
there is a contingency.
768. Has the League represented the matter to any other officer connected with the police? Yes. Mr.
Kelly, our secretary, wrote to the Inspector-General of Police, inviting him to be present with the
deputation to Sir Henry Parkes.
769. Has the League taken any steps to test the truthfulness, or otherwise of the allegations as to corrup-
tion on the part of the police ? We found that it would be impossible to sheet that home to the police,
except from the statements made by Mr. Goldtown. In fact, it is impossible to find out — at least, I
think it impossible.
770. Do you know whether these lottery houses are frequented by young boys or girls ? Lads of from
12 and 14 up to 16 or 17 hang about there a good deal. They seem to rather delight in hanging about
these shops.
771. Do I understand you to say that the police have distinctly informed you that they are powerless to
act in this matter of the Chinese gambling-dens ? Yes ; several times. Mr. Inspector Atwill has told
me so.
772. Have you asked him the reason why they were powerless to act ? He said at the time the raid was
made on Moy Ping's establishment, that the League starting had practically blocked the police. He also
said that the police had been planning the raid for a long time, and the publicity given to the matter by
the League starting had tied their hands. Yet, immediately the League was started, within a week, the
raid was made.
773. Have you any reason to believe that the starting of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League has had a
tendency to stop the gambling in Lower George-street at all ? Well, one shop has closed up, and you
do not see so many people about. They may be inside, of course.
774. But, taking it altogether, you say you do not think there is so much of it going on now as there was
two or three months ago ? I do not think so. But the E. S. and A. C. Bank would be able to tell you
better than anyone else on that point, by the amount of money deposited with them by these people! If
you go there when they are paying in their money, you have to stand back for them ; they take their
money in a carpet bag. A Chinaman named Sun Lee is said to have sent £60,000 home to China.
775. Who told you that? I do not know who made the statement.
775 i-. Does it not strike you that upon a serious matter of this kind it is hardly the thing to make state-
ments without giving some foundation for them — this being really a very serious matter? Admitted.
776. For instance, the Premier told the deputation, " If the statements made were warranted — and it
must be supposed they were or they would not have been made — that the police actually received valuable
presents to the extent of watches and diamond rings, and that subscriptions were made with a view of
making their services as conservators of the peace and good order of the State useless ; if these state-
ments were at all founded on fact, it disclosed a state of things which he would not hesitate to state he
would lose no time whatever in investigating as thoroughly as possible." Now, what I want is to get some
evidence to go upon in relation to this statement of the collection of money for the purpose of bribing
the police to wink at the operation of these Chinese gambling-dens ? With regard to the statement of
Goldtown, I may say that he only stated that the 2d. was subscribed in the northern end of the
city.
777. According to his statement it is confined to Lower George-street ? Yes.
778. Has your League any suggestions to make as to altering the laws with a view to the suppression of
this evil ? Yes ; we have made a suggestion in the prayer of our petition, which was drawn up by a legal
gentleman, the suggestion being that the landlord should be held equally responsible with the tenant, upon
due notice being given that the house was being used for gambling purposes.
779. Is gambling going on in these houses in Lower George-street now? Yes ; it was going on when I
came up, a little after 2 o'clock.
780. That is, I suppose, the people were going in and out in the usual way ? Yes.
781. Did you ever go into one of these houses yourself ? Yes ; I went in on one occasion with two
members of the League. We took three tickets. On coming out again there was a policeman outside,
to whom we offered to give ourselves in custody, showing him the tickets, but he only laughed.
782. Those were lottery tickets I suppose ? Yes.
783. Did you ever see them play fan-tan there ? No, not in Lower George-street. 784.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
23
784. Do you know what it is ? I have seen them play it in Cooktown. They have a square plate on ^u^rong.
which there are certain marks to put the cash on, and they play with brass coins. ,-^a^— \
785. Were you informed what were your chances of winning ? No ; we simply took our tickets. It is 8 g6pt., 1891.
stuck up on the shop windows outside. Five marks would be Is., but now there is 2d. of that deducted.
Six marks is 3s. 4d., I think, but I do not remember exactly.
786. Do you know if it is possible with a sixpenny ticket to win a large amount — say £74 ? I have heard
it is. The Chinamen take pretty good care if a man wins a large amount that it shall be known — that
" Dutch Peter," or " French Louis," or whoever it may be, has won a large amount ; and it soon passes
round.
787. Have you heard of complaints form the wives of labouring men about the losses'sustained by their
husbands in these dens ? Yes, I have been told by Mr. Daley, Mr. O'Connor , and others. We were
talking about it the other day.
788. The wives make a disturbance about it ? They have come to my shop and told me that they have
been up to bring their husbands from these places. They have also told me that they have lost the whole
of their week's earnings, and run tick with me for a little tobacco.
789. Mr. Quong Tart!] How many Chinese houses do you say there are in Lower G-eorge-street ? About
thirty-six shops in all, and about twenty-eight gambling-houses.
790. Do you know the names of the Chinese occupying these houses ? No, but the names are outside on
their premises.
791. You cannot give us the names ? I cannot.
792. Can you explain the kind of gambling that goes on there ? I cannot say what kind of gambling
goes on inside, but I know that the whole of them sell lottery tickets.
793. Have you got the ticket you paid 6d. for ? No.
794. What did you do with it ? 1 put it in my pocket at the time.
795. If you had the lottery ticket could you trace the name of the shop where you got it ? I know the
shop. It is one of five immediately below Beale's buildings.
796. Have you found any respectable Chinese merchants connected with these gambling-houses ? No ; I
may say that from hearsay I believe the respectable Chinese are averse to it.
797. You cannot swear to it ? No; I have very little dealings with them. In fact, I do not speak to
them once in twelve months.
798. You do not know how many share in those twenty-eight shops ? No ; I am very much" averse to
Chinese altogether, and have no dealings with any of them.
799. I thought you would be able to tell us as Chairman of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? I
simply sit there as Chairman ; there are other members of the League who will be able to give you more
information than I can.
800: You have said that you with others gave yourself in charge of a policeman — what Lis the name of
the policeman you met outside the door on that occasion ? I do not know. He is a new constable to
that end of the town.
801. Mr. Hawthorne. ~\ Who were the promoters of this Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? A number of
shopkeepers in the locality. It is a movement that has been talked about for a considerable time.
Eventually we called a meeting, a majority of the shopkeepers having been visited by myself and Mr.
Kelly to ask them to subscribe their names, and this [referring to document] was the list we originally
got.
802. You were elected President, I understand ? Yes.
803. Then we must take it that you were one of the principal individuals connected with the formation
of the League ? Well, I do not know that I was.
804. Did those gentlemen who spoke at the deputation to the Premier, receive their information from any
member or members of the league? Many of them know the facts themselves from residence iu the
district.
805. How would Mr. Davies know about the facts stated there ? The members were present, some of
them, at special meetings of the League.
806. Were your meetings open to anyone ? Yes.
807. Did anything take place of a startling character in Lower George-street that led to the starting of
the League ? No. It was simply in consequence of the falling off in business, and the discussions that
took place among the shopkeepers with regard to the nuisance of these Chinese shops in the neighbour-
hood. It was a matter of general complaint. People would not go up and down that part of George-
street, and it was stated by firms such as Felton and Nock, and others, that their trade was falling off in
consequence.
808. Do you think the presence of these Chinese in Lower George-street, and their gambling propensities
have had. the effect of causing a depression in business that would not otherwise have existed, had not the
gambling-dens been there ? Well, there would certainly have been a depression in business on account
of the late strike, but I do not think it would have been to the same extent.
809. And you really believe as a business man that the enormous amount of gambling that is said to
exist in these Chinese habitations, is causing a depression in business in that part of the city ? Yes, there
is no doubt about it to my mind.
810. Have you ever heard anything definite about any presents being 'given to Inspector Atwill or any
one else by the Chinese ? Several have told me about chests of tea, or jars of ginger, or something of
that kind having been given to Inspector Atwill.
811. Can you remember the name of any person who told you that chests of tea or jars of ginger had
been sent to Inspector AtwilPs house ? I heard from a number of shopkeepers, before I was connected
with the League, that it was done. But I do not believe that you could get anyone who has seen it done.
It is a matter of surmise in most cases. No doubt they had bills for these things, but whether they were
paid for is another matter altogether.
812. Have the members of the League ever gone into these gambling-houses in a body to see things for
themselves ? No. Many members of the League have been gamblers themselves.
813. So that really it is only from hearsay what you have said with regard to presents being given to the
police ? I have never said that presents have been given myself. It is simply hearsay evidence. With
regard to the statement made by Mr. Goldtown, as to the deduction of 2d. in the Is., it was not so,
because the statement was made in the presence of the League. 814.
24 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETLDENCE,
Mr- 814. But as to the statement made by Mr. Davies, M.P., arid others ? No, I cannot say as to that.
J Armstrong, g]^ You have stated that respectable people are insulted going down George-street ? I have heard so.
s s~^~iroi ^®' ^e wor^s y°u use are to tms effect, that ladies and respectable people would not go down George-
p "' ' street, but went round by Pitt-street instead; that many of the Chinese were very rude to people passing
down there, and the police said they could do nothing ? Tes. I may say I have seen one myself, a
larrikin Chinaman — that is, I have heard him pass remarks. To respectable women his manner would be
insulting, but the women he passed the remarks to he very likely knew.
817. Mr. McEillop.'] Have you ever bad an interview with Constable Beadman? I have had several
conversations with him.
818. Was it relative to this Chinese matter ? Tes. It was immediately after the deputation to Sir
Henry Parkes.
8J9. What was the nature of the conversation? They taxed me with having made a statement that the
police were bribed by the Chinese. I said that I had simply reiterated the statement of G-oldtown, and
I told Sir Henry Parkes that the time had gone by for secrecy.
820. Did Constable Beadman say anything about a certain amount of money he had in the bank ? He
said he had a banking account.
821. Was it £460 he said he had in the bank ? He may have said so, I do not remember
822. What else did he say when he passed that remark? He said, " I suppose you will think I got that
from the Chinaman."
823. How long was Beadman on that beat ? About four years.
824. Used ex-Constable Q.uealy to be nearly all the time in the Chinese quarter ? I think the beat
extends from Hunter-street to Circular Quay.
825. Do you know anything about the matter of an alleged gift of a diamond ring to one of these police-
men in that quarter? I know one or two policemen who weaT diamond rings, but whether they were
presented with them, or whether they bought them, I cannot =ay.
826. Do you know anything about one that was presented to a policeman, or was handed to him to look
at, and he walked off with it, and afterwards returned the ring with a " paste " stone substituted for the
diamond itself ? No. I never heard of that.
827. Who is the bank manager you refer to as being likely to give us information with respect to the
moneys banked by the Chinese who run the gambling-houses? Mr. Bellette.
828. What is Quealy's present address, do you know? The "Shamrock Hotel," Woolloomooloo, but
whether ho can be found there now I cannot say.
820. Were you in Lower George-street at the time Sergeant M'Kenzie was in the district ? No. I was
going to sea for a living at that time.
S'iO. Is it not a fact that the practice of these coal lumpers, wharf labourers, and others gaming at those
Chinese gambling-dens, is one of the reasons why many of the shopkeepers in that part of Sydney often
fail — through their accounts not being fully paid up ? Yes; a man named Codd, some time ago, could
not make it pay ; and there are several others.
831. You never went through any of these Chinese houses at any time? No ; not through them.
832. You know nothing about the sustentation fund ? Only what I have stated here.
833. Do you think the present law in force in this Colony would be ample to cope with the evil, if it were
put in force ? Yes ; I am of opinion that the law can be put in force effectively right away ; and I may
say our League holds that the evil can be done away with at once ; that the continuance of the evil is due
either to negligence or connivance on the part of the police.
834. Are you aware that some of the places in Lower George-street are so strongly barricaded that it is
next door to impossible to make a successful raid upon them ? It is quite possible, though I do not know
of it myself.
S35. You have not seen it ? No ; I was invited by the Inspector of Police to go to Moy Ping's, but I did
not go. Some other members of the League did. I may say here that Constable Quealy stated that he
intended to give evidence before this Commission, because Inspector Atwill opposed his application for
a publican's license.
836. Did you know a Mr. Chazel, who, it was said, received a sum of money to vacate his shop, in order
to allow certaiu Chinese to run it for gambling purposes ? Yes.
837. Was it spoken to you ? No, not to me.
838. Did he make that statement at one of the meetings of the League ? No.
839. To whom did he make the statement, to the best of your knowledge ? Well, several persons heard
the statement. It was a matter of pretty general information down there, as to his receiving a large sum
of money to vacate his premises in favour of the Chinese.
840. Who would be the best and most reliable person to summon before this Commission, to give some
solid information as to the gambling nuisance in Lower George-street ? There is a butcher living imme-
diately at the back of Harrington-street, and who goes by the name of "Cursing Jimmy," who is an
habitual attendant of these gambling-dens.
841. Any others ? Mr. Christensen.
842. Has he gambled? Yes ; and he has been many years there.
843. Is there not a Mr. Dawson ? Mr. Dawson is the man I spoke of to whom a Chinaman offered a
bonus to take a shop.
844. Is it not a fact that in hundreds of cases men lose the whole of their week's wages in these gambling-
dens ? Yes ; they have told me so repeatedly. They would say, " I cannot pay you this week, Jack. I
lost it all with the Chinamen — will pay you next week."
845. Can you inform the Commission of certain instances where the wives have gone down George-
street beseeching their husbands to leave those places ? Yes ; I have seen them near my shop.
846. At your shop? Yes. They have said their husbands were up the street at the Chinaman's, and
would spend every shilling they had got there. Mr. Daley has told me that men having received £5 or
£6, would lose everything they had, and borrow from him a few shillings to get some meat, or something
){ that kind. Mr. O'Connor has had similar experience.
347. In your opinion the police are very careless, if not quite indifferent ? They say, " they have no
power to cope with it ;" that is the argument they use every time — they have no power to cope with it.
Mr.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 25
Mr. Alfred Chambers called and examined : —
848. President.] Where do you reside, Mr. Chambers ? I live at Eockdale. Mr.
849. "What is your business ? I am book-keeper for Messrs. Felton and Nock, 194 G-eorge-street. A. Chambers.
850. What is the business carried on by your firm ? General ironmongers. •— ~j*-^n
851. How long have you been there ? Pour years. 8 Sept-j 189L
852. What is the rent of the premises ? Forty-odd pounds per month.
853. Are they very extensive premises ? Well, no.
854. About what frontage ? That I cannot say.
855. What accommodation do they provide ? Just the ordinary building, it is a double-fronted shop —
there are two shops as a matter of fact of one storey only.
856. It is near the Chinese quarter, is it not ? It is surrounded by Chinese, you might say.
857. I suppose you spend a considerable part of your time there ? Tes ; all day, from 9 o'clock till 6.
858. Then you have plenty of opportunities of observing what goes on in the neighbourhood ? Oh, yes ;
I have overtime besides the regular hours I have mentioned.
859. Have you observed the police to be very active in carrying out their duties in that locality? No,
sir ; I never have observed them at all active as regards the Chinese gambling. They have never made
any attempt to stop it. I could have stopped it myself had I their power. I have often wondered how
the gambling could be carried on to the extent it is.
860. Is it carried on in the day or night principally ? At all times — Sundays included.
861. What class of people mostly frequent these places ? All sorts, but mostly Europeans. During the
last year or so there have been comparatively very few Chinese in the neighbourhood ; most of the
respectable Chinese have gone away.
802. The decent Chinese merchants have left the locality ? Tes ; a great many of them have.
863. And the houses are taken up by these keepers of gambling-dens ? Yes ; from our place up to the
American Exchange Hotel. Where one house stood some little places have been built where no European
could possibly get a living.
864. Do they carry on any business there ? No; no legitimate business at all. They have a few things in
the window sometimes ; but most of them have none at all. If you are not known you cannot get in, as
a rule, just now.
865. Have you been in any of these places ? Yes, once. In the shop upon which the raid was made.
866. Moy Ping's place ? Yes ; I have seen fan tan played there.
867. You have not been in any of these other places ? I have never been in ; but I could have gone if
I had been with the right people to get in.
868. Mr. Abigail.'] Were you a member of the deputation to the Premier in relation to this Chinese
gambling question ? No, 1 had nothing to do with it.
869. Have you read the statements that were made at that deputation ? Yes, I read all of the reports.
870. Then, you noticed that several members of the deputation made statements to the effect that the
police had received bribes for passing over these places, and allowing them to carry on ? Yes. That has
been common talk for the last two years. But things like that are of course difficult to prove. I have
frequently seen two constables going in and out of that same Moy Ping's place — over and over again,
day after day. So much so, indeed, that I spoke to Mr. Nock — I think first about two years ago — wondering
who they were, before I knew they were constables.
871. Then they were not in uniform ? No ; in private clothes like an ordinary citizen. When I knew
who they were I took more particular notice of them.
872. You do not know whether they went in for the purpose of stopping the gambling ? It certainly did
not strike me in that way. It would be ridiculous to suppose they could be doing so, going in day after
day like that, when they could stop it any time they liked.
873. Is it not difficult to obtain admission to those places while gambling is going on ? No. I have been
in myself ; and my idea is that it is not so difficult.
874. Was fan tan played there ? I saw a game played there. I followed several others, and walked in
when they were playing.
875. There was a table in the room with a square board on it ? Yes.
876. And brass coins with holes in the middle ? Yes, and marks on the corners of the board.
877. Were there many in the room ? It was full. One had to push through the crowd to see.
878. Was there much money on the table ? There were from half-crowns and shillings to pennies.
879. A considerable sum of money, I suppose, if it was all reckoned up ? I dare say, but I cannot say
much about it, as I was only there a few minutes. I simply followed, the people who were going in
and out.
880. Do you know whether that was the room where the detectives or plain clothes constables went when
they went inside ? I am pretty sure it was. That was the only place except that at the front, and a little
place in between.
881. What are the names of the constables whom you saw going into this place? Constables Beadman
and Carson.
882. At all events you do not think they stopped in the front shop ? I am sure they did not. Had they
have done so everybody could have seen them from the outside easily.
883. Do you know of your own personal knowledge of any of the police receiving presents of gold watches
or diamond rings, money or furniture ? Personally I have no direct evidence to offer. But I can say
something with regard to an article of furniture supplied to Inspector Atwill.
884. What is that ? When this inquiry first came up, about two months ago, Mr. Ah Toy came to me
one Saturday afternoon late and asked me to make out a bill for him. He said he wanted it dated — and
then he counted on his fingers ; I could not make out what he meant at first — "Dated," he said, "back
to November, 1890," and I did so. I put two penny stamps upon it, or a twopenny — I feel sure it is the
former. I wrote Nov. 1890 on the stamps, and he signed his name. Mr. Atwill had had the goods the
year before, or last November.
885. You have no doubt about that bill being receipted? No, I am quite positive. He said Mr. Atwill
had come and asked him for it. I said to him, " Did you get any money ? " And he replied, " Oh, no
money."
886. And that refers to Mr. Atwill ? Yes, you will find the bill, if Mr. Atwill produces it, in my
handwriting. 887.
272— D
26 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 887. Have you any knowlege of any other member of the police force having been supplied with goods in
A. Chambers. t]lat way p " ^ that ;s tjie on\y ono J ]jnow 0f
< * N 888. Do you know whether Ah Toy is engaged in gambling, or connected with any of these gambling-houses
ept., 891. ju ari^ ^ p j ^o uo^, jjjj^, whether he is or not.
8^9. He has premises in that neighbourhood ? Oh, his place is not a gambling-shop.
890. He does not allow gambling on his premises in George-street ? As far as I know he does not.
891 . Do you think he is connected with gambling in any other place? Not as far as I know.
N92. So far as you are aware, he is a respectable tradesman? Tes, I think so. I may say that other
things have happened in George-street with regard to loss of trade, and so on. I can corroborate any-
thing of that kind.
89:1. With reference to trade depression, if it has been stated that trade has fallen off very considerably
of late as the result of the proceedings taking place in these Chinese quarters, can you confirm that
statement ? Tes, I believe it is so, and more especially since those little places have been built about us,
unquestionably.
894. Does this loss occur because the people will not go down there ? Yes ; that is the case. They will
not pass along that part of George-street. If you know any one coming by the North Shore ferry, or
Manly Beach steamers, you will find they will not go that way.
895. Is it because they are afraid of being interfered with? Yes; especially after dark. Every house
has a man standing outside on the watch.
896. Are they Chinese, or larrikin Europeans ? Chinese. The larrikin Europeans stand on the opposite
side of the pavement, but one is as bad as the other.
897. Are the Chinese prominent in insulting women passing along the streets ? Yes ; I could bring proof
of several eases, if I liked to bring the witnesses here. I may say that my own wife and her sister have
been insulted.
898. And the ladies who have been insulted in this way have said that they will not come there again?
Yes. In the case of my own wife and her sister they have refused to come to my place of business, and
I have had to meet them elsewhere.
899. Have you anything to say about the sanitary condition of lower George-street? "Well, the smell
there is something horrible.
900. Have you ever seen opium smoking ? No ; but I believe that must produce the smell that comes
from these places.
901. Do the Chinese overcrowd these buildings? That I cannot say, but I should guess so.
902. Do you know anything about any assignation houses kept by these Chinese? Unquestionably, I do.
903. Whereabouts are they ? Well, a good many of them have houses of their own now— in Essex-street,
at the back there.
904. Do they keep their dwelling-houses away from their shops ? Not altogether that. They have these
women there, and keep them to themselves.
905. Do they keep them for their own purposes, or for the traffic with their countrymen ? Some do, I
believe. Of course there are several different kinds of Chinamen there. But they are mostly of the
lower class; I believe.
906. Do you know the names of any of these Chinese who are keeping the women in the houses you refer
to ? That is rather a difficult matter, sir. I get rather mixed with their names. There are one or two
respectable men there.
907. Do you know which of these gambling-houses is credited with being the most notorious down there ?
Well, Sun Sam Kee — he is supposed to be one of the biggest.
908. Does he not carry on a grocery business, or something of that kind — sells bags of sugar, and so on?
I believe he does, but I will not be sure. Of course anybody can see these places ; they have actually
taken our numbers — I mean the places next door to us. We have been numbered 194 and 196 for years,
and these two little places next to Bridge-street from us have also been numbered the same.
909. Do you know the owners of any of these premises ? I have heard Mr. Bennett's name mentioned,
and others.
910. What Mr. Bennett is that ? Mr. Bennett, of the Evening JVews, I believe.
911. Do you know any others ? I forget for the moment. There is another thing I should mention:
When Mr. Nock was away a number of young girls came to our place, having an appointment to meet
somebody at a house, which I conclude, must have been one of these little Chinese places I have mentioned.
They had come in answer to an advertisement, " A young woman wanted as general servant," or something
of that kind. They came to us, because ours was the only European place there. I saw about a dozen
there, and advised them to clear awav out of it.
91'2. You say there were quite a number of these girls ? Ye3.
913. And that they came in answer to an advertisement in the paper ? Yes.
911. How long ago was that ? In the month of April last.
915. Do you know the occupants of the house you refer to, near t j your place of business ? No.
916. You know there are Chinamen living there ? Yes.
917. But you do not know their names ? No.
918. What was the number of the place ? I think it was 198 then, but I took no notice of it at the time.
919. Where was it situated ? The other side of " Power's Hotel" — between that and the "American
Exchange Hotel."
920. Have you ever seen girls and youths visit these Chinese houses at night ? Not girls in Georo-e-street.
921. But you have seen youths there ? Oh, yes— boys aud men in respectable positions gather there. At
first I had no idea what it could be, and have stood and wondered,
922. Have you ever had any conversation with any of the police about these places ? No ; I have had
nothing whatever to do with it.
923. Have you ever been interfered with yourself, or been accosted bv Chinamen down there ? Yes ; I
have heard tbem " boohoo !" as I went by ; yet I took no active part in" the agitation against them.
924. Have they ever otherwise accosted you ? Yes ; they have come up and said, "play fan tan welly
good game."
925. Do they ever get Europeans to " tout" for them ? They have done so.
926. Have you noticed any difference during the last month or six weeks, in the number of people going
into
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 27
into these houses — I mean the gambling-dens in Lower George-street ? I should rather think so. There r^1''*-
are not half, or a quarter, or one-twentieth part going in now that there was before the raid was made. Chambers.
927. The numbers attending these places have sensibly diminished since the last raid was made ? Tes ; .'"*,^;,
there is not half the number. " 8 Sept" 1881'
928. Do you remember the night the Commission made a visit to that locality ? I was not there that night.
929. But you heard of it ? Tes.
930. Since that has the gambling been carried on to the same extent ? I was told that last Saturday it
was very bad— of course I am only speaking from hearsay— that it was worse than it has been for some
time past.
931. What hour in the night would you say is the worst in these places ? About 8, 9, 10, or 11 o'clock.
932. Do they carry on the business on Sundays ? Tes ; Sunday was one of the worst days. I used to
have occasion to come over from North Shore to Balmain on Sunday, and saw a good deal of it, at night
time. I have been in Goulburn-street, and in Campbell-street ; 1 have seen a good deal of it there. I
used to attend a church up in that direction, as organist.
933. Of your own knowledge, I understand, you do not know anything that would sustain a charge of
bribery as against the police ? "Well, no— only from the fact, as I contend, that they could not possibly
overlook such a state of things unless they were.
934. What you contend, I understand, is that this gambling has been carried on in such a glaring manner,
that the police would have been bound to have taken some action, if they had attempted to do their duty ?
Tes, especially when I see two constables walking in and out of these places, to an extent to cause me to
wonder what they are doing.
935. And you think that during the time the police were paying their visits gambling was still being
carried on there ? Tes, I should say so ; in fact I might almost say I am sure of it, for every time I
have passed there I have seen dozens going in and out.
93G. Tou have referred to Sun Sam Kee ; do you know him personally ? No.
937. Mr. Quong Tart.] Tou have told us that you went into one of these houses on one occasion, and saw
gambling going on there ? Tes.
938-9. What place was that? Moy Ping's. There were a lot going in, and I went in with them.
940. Do you know any of them by name ? No; not one. There were a great many larrikins there — I see
them every day. There were also some apparently respectable men ; a good many. They took no notice
of me at all.
941. In answer to one question, I understood you to say that some of the Chinese keep bad women for
the purpose of making money out of them. Can you take us to the place where they live ? They are
not in George-street, but there are plenty of places off Essex-street.
942. Do you know any respectable Chinese merchants connected with gambling ? No.
943. Have you ever heard any respectable Chinese merchants passing remarks about the gambling-dens ?
Tes ; Mr. On Lee told me they wanted to get rid of them all.
944. Any others? I do not remember just now.
. 945. But you believe that there are several other Chinese merchants who would like to do the same thing,
that is, put down this evil ? Oh, yes.
946. In these gambling-houses they have several games, do they not? Tes ; bat anyone can go in and
buy a ticket for a lottery.
947. Could you obtain one now if you went down to buy it? Perhaps not now; but you can at
ordinary times.
948. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Tou have said your wife and sister-in-law were insulted by the Chinese in passing
down George-street. What was the nature of the insult ? Well, making signs to them, and making
noises with their mouths.
949. Did they know the lady was your wife ? Do you suppose they could ? Is it likely I would intro-
duce my wife to those Chinamen ? In fact they had no reason to interfere with them in any way.
950. Do you know of any other females being insulted ? Tes ; often. I should say that most of the
girls who go down there now are no good. Anybody can see that for themselves, having much to do with
the neighbourhood.
951. Respectable women are scarcely ever seen down Lower George-street now ? Yery seldom. Not
from Bridge-street down.
952. And you attribute that to the presence of the Chinese ? Tes ; to the presence of the Chinese of
the class I mention.
953. Which is the shortest route from the Post Office to Circular Quay — Pitt-street or George-street ?
Prom the Post Office to the ordinary ferries the nearest way would be Pitt-street, to the Manly boats
George-street would be the nearest road. But you must recollect that people coming from Erskine-street
and that direction along Tork-street would go down George- street.
954. Do you know ex-Constable Quealy, Mr. Chambers ? Tes.
955. Do you know anything derogatory to his character, as to his having received presents from the
Chinese, especially in money or jewelry ? I have heard so, but not of him especially. I have heard it
over and over again for the last two years. In fact I may say it has been common talk.
956. Have you ever seen any riots or rows in connection with these Chinese gambling-dens in Lower
George-street ? Tes ; I have seen people thrown out over and over again. There have been several
rows there, especially about a year and a half ago. I have seen people with blood on them taken up the
street.
957. Have you seen working men's wives going down and beseeching their husbands to come away from
these gambling-dens ? No. The majority of them, I think, dare not. They would be too frightened.
958. Do you know the names of the streets or terraces where these women are kept that you have referred
to ? I do not know the names, but I could point them out to you.
959. What you would call The Rocks ? Tes, I suppose it is as a matter of fact.
960. On the occasion your wife was insulted, your sister, or your wife's sister, I think you said, was there
also. Was she insulted at the same time ? Tes, the pair of them. It was certainly an insult to have
Chinamen making grimaces at them and signs with their hands while they were looking in a respectable
shop window.
961. To what extent has your business depreciated during the last twelve months ? A lot.
962.
28 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MIXCTES OF EVIDEXCE.
Mr. 962. Would you say 50 per cent. ? No ; it would be a remarkably good business that would stand a
A. Chambers, depreciation of that extent. But the depreciation 1 should say is quite 20 per cent.
0"r*^T^i 963- Were Felton and Nock's premises larger when you first joined the firm than they are now? JSo,
o ocpt.,1891. ii -
r the same premises. . ,
964. Chairman.'] "We understand you to say that business generally at that end of the town has depreciated
considerably during the last year and a half ? Yes. ,
965. To what do you attribute that falling off ? I attribute it to those Chinese places being built on
either side of us. As I have said already, they have even got our numbers. _ ....
966. I want to know what, in your opinion, is the cause of the depression ? I believe it to be principally
caused by these buildings being occupied by objectionable tenants.
967. What wares do you sell in your establishment ? All kinds of hardware, crockery, and glassware ot
all kinds.
968. Are you not aware that business generally in the city has fallen off during tbe last two years ? Well,
for the matter of that business has been falling off ever since I can remember.
969. How long is it since you arrived in Sydney ? About four years and a half.
970. Are you not aware that there has been a marked depression in business during the last two years ? I
have heard people say so, but I do not think it has been any greater than the two years previously.
971. Then you think you do not sell bo much hardware in your establishment in consequence of the
presence of these Chinese gambling-dens, and the people who frequent tbem in Lower George- street ?
Yes. You see there is so much of our stock that ladies buy, and as I have said respectable people and
ladies especially have come to avoid that part of G-eorge-street to a large extent.
972. Are you a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League? No.
973. Do you know Mr. G-oldtown ? Yes.
974. Have you ever had any conversation with him on this subject ? No ; I believe he is a well conducted
man — I understand so.
[The witness withdrew.]
THURSDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
3pr.c0.ent:—
The Mayor (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
EEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-President.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Bichard Vallauncy Kelly called and examined : —
Mr- 975. President.'] You are a resident of George-street, Mr. Kelly ? Yes.
R. V. Kelly, qjq "What business do you follow ? The grocery Business — wholesale and retail.
in^i^isqi 977. Were you one of the deputation that waited upon Sir Henry Parkes some lew weeks ago ? I was.
p ' 978. I believe you are a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Yes ; I am secretary to the
League.
979. In your interview with Sir Henry Parkes you stated that this abuse had been in existence for a
number of years ? Yes.
980. How long have you been residing in Lower George-street ? Close on two years now.
981. In your interview with the Premier did you speak of the existence of the gambling evil, only during
the short time you were there, or for a longer period? Previously I was continually in the habit of
passing there both in the day and night time.
982. Previous to your going to live there ? Yes.
983. Therefore you have had a varied experience of the locality ? Yes.
984. Extending over how long a period ? Ten or twelve years, I may say.
985. Have you found that these gambling-dens have considerably increased in number within your
experience ? Yes ; they have been considerably augmented.
986. Personally did you ever visit any of these dens ? Not myself.
987. I mean for the purpose not of gambling, but of satisfying yourself as to the mode of procedure ?
No ; I am averse to gambling in any shape or form.
988. I thought you might have gone in out of curiosity to see what was going on and satisfy yourself on
the point ? No ; I cannot say that I have ever personally -visited these places out of curiosity ; but I
have seen enough outside to know that gambling is carried on to a very great extent.
989. Can you say what class of people generally frequent these places ? Well, you may say the labouring
classes, and the middle class, that is clerks, tradesmen, and that class of people. I cannot say that they
would reach as far in the scale of society as the aristocracy, but they go up pretty near that — that is the
general run of people.
990. Have you ever witnessed any harrowing scenes in that locality, so far as men's wives going down
there at any time in search of their husbands, who have gone to these dens, and gambled away their
earnings ? Yes ; as a positive fact, one woman came to the door of my shop crying bitterly. She had
been waiting for her husbaud to come out of one of these places, to which he had taken the whole of his
week's wages. It is a common habit of working men to go into the Chinese gambling-dens, and spend
nearly every penny they have earned, and then they have to borrow a little money to keep the family in
bread and butter.
991. Since you have been in business in that part of the city can you say that the existence of this evil
has interfered with your business to any extent ? Yes ; most materially.
992. In what way has it materially interfered with your business ? Simply by driving the custom away.
Eor instance, if I go to solicit custom, people tell me that they will not pass up George-street from
Circular Quay in the direct course, but prefer to go along Pitt-street, and turn up Bridge-street, and
deal with Mr. C. P. Downton, who catches what would otherwise be my customers, my establishment
being more convenient to the different ferries on that side of Circular Quay.
993.
CHINESE GAMBLING- COMMISSION — MINTTTES OF EVIDENCE. 29
993. Then you feel that the existence of these Chinese gambling-dens is seriously detrimental to your MJj
trade ? Yes ; we cannot get the custom that would in ordinary circumstances come in our way simply *■ *• Kelv-
through this evil. ' " ^
994. Do you find that it has affected you at all so far as collecting the amounts due to you by your ep ''
customers of the labouring class ? Certainly ; I have stopped all credit with the labouring class.
995. I suppose it would simply mean ruin if you kept on giving credit ? I dare say it would materially
affect my pocket.
996. Tou say that you have stopped the credit system in your business ? Tes ; I was about to explain
how it has affected me : A man comes into my shop — say, he owes me £1 or 25s., he would probably say
he could not pay the score, but ask me to take 15s.; and then say he wants 5s., (is., or 7s., or whatever
it may be, in coppers, to go up to the Chinaman to make a haul. They go to play fan-tan. In several
cases I have refused it, and the men have never come back again.
997. And you lost their custom ? Tes ; and my money too, for iu many cases the amounts were so
infinitesimal that it would have been useless to proceed against them.
998. Therefore this Chinese gambling nuisance has affected you materially in every way ? Of course.
999. I suppose you have noticed large numbers of people frequenting these places both by day and
night ? Yes ; there is a continual flow of people passing in and out during the day and night.
1000. Are they principally Europeans ? Yes.
1001. Have you ever noticed any women going in and out of these places ? Yes ; both women and young
children occasionally.
1002. Both boys and girls? Yes; of tender age — under the age of 14 I should say, as near as I
could judge.
1003. Do you know of any Chinese houses where women are kept for immoral purposes about that por-
tion of the city ? No ; I do not know, of my own knowledge, that there are such places, but I have
been told so. My business occupies pretty well the whole of my time, there being only myself and my
wife in it, and I have had no time to go further than the street 1 live in to seek for information.
1004. As you have taken an important part in the League I thought you might have made it your business
to ascertain ? I have no personal knowledge of such things. 1 may say a policeman told me up the
street, on one occasion, that a woman was carrying on the business of gamerouching.
1005. "Who was your informant ? Constable Thomas Wheelan.
1006. Have you ever noticed any scenes of violence in that locality ? I have seen a European struck
down with an iron bar.
1007. I was coming to that point -. Have you ever seen any riots occur outside these gambling-dens ?
"Well, not exactly riots. I have seen disturbances and free fights, and have afterwards noticed a constable
among the Chinamen ; but as far as I could see they did not take an active part in getting evidence to
show who was to blame or anything. They merely took the assertions of the Chinese, to the best of my
knowledge.
1008. Tou have said that an iron bar was used on one occasion ? Yes ; a European, who was somewhat
under the influence of drink, went up to one of these places to ask some question in reference to money
lost in gambling, and a disturbance then ensued. A Chinaman came out with a great iron bar, and struck
him down, hitting him in the middle of the head, and splitting his head open. The man was taken to the
Infirmary. In that case I believe the Chinaman got a month's imprisonment for the assault.
1009. The disturbance on that occasion was the result of a dispute over gambling matters ? Yes.
1010. You have said you were present on the occasion of the deputation to Sir Henry Parkes, when some
serious allegations were made against the police — that they had been presented with various articles, such
as watches and jewellery, including diamond rings, and in some cases money. Do you know, from your
own personal knowledge, of any presentation having been made to any particular member of the force ?
Not from my own personal knowledge, I do not.
1011. Do you know anything of it from hearsay ? Yes ; and from the manner in which the police shut
their eyes to what is going on I am sure there must be some truth in it.
1012. You think there are grounds for suspicion ? Yes. Of course it is difficult to prove. If a man in
an official position like that was going to take a gold watch or anything else as a bribe he would not
announce the fact by blowing a trumpet, and let everybody know about it. There must, however, be some
truth in the statement.
1013. But sometimes bribery is found out ? As I have said, I cannot speak from personal experience.
1014. But you regard the circumstances surrounding the case as suspicious ? Yes ; very suspicious,
indeed.
1015. From what you have said, I gather that you are of opinion that the police have taken the situation
quite easy ? Yes. If I may offer a suggestion, while on the subject I should say that the best way to
deal with the position would be to change the whole of the police force in that district, say nearly every
three months, from the Inspector to the Watch-house keeper.
1016. That is a matter that will be better discussed later on ; — have you been interviewed by any members
of the police force since you have been a member of the League, or since this Commission was
appointed ; — have you had a chat with any of them ? I may say that Constable Wheelan asked me at
one time if the name of any policeman had been mentioned at any of our meetings at all, and I told him
no. I also had a conversation with Constable Quealy. He said all we wanted to do was to keep the
ball rolling, and to keep Mr. Inspector Atwill up to his work. That was before he (Constable Quealy)
was dismissed.
1017. Have you known of any females being insulted while passing up and down Lower G-eorge-Btreet ?
In giving that evidence I wish to ask if these females are going to be called upon to attend here. The
Commission will understand that it is a delicate matter for a female to come before a body of gentlemen
to give evidence in a case of this kind .
1018. "We must request you to give the names, if you please ? I cannot exactly state the names ; but if
called upon, I could get them.
1019. I want to get reliable information, and must have it, otherwise our labours will go for nothing ? The
females I refer to were principally servant girls. I may also state that my own wife has been insulted,
and on one occasion she asked me to go back and close up the shop. It is chiefly on that account that I
have taken an interest in the formation of the League.
1020.
30 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 1020. Of what nature were the insults ? It was in their attitude — their manner and general carrying on,
R. V. Kelly. whjcn would imply that something improper was meant. But I have repeatedly had servant girls come
"C "?J into my shop on Saturday night on their way to the Savings Bank ; and they have asked me if I would
10 Sept., 1891. mind walking as far as Bridge-street with them as they did not care about passing the Chinese quarters.
There is always a great congregation of these people outside, but I notice that since action was taken by
the League they do not meet on the footpath at all, but keep to the street way.
1C21. Is gambling still carried on in these houses ? Tes ; you can see them running up and down with
their tickets — Pak-ah-pu tickets. It is carried on to a great extent day and night.
1022. I suppose the same class of people generally frequent those Chinese gambling-dens ? Tes ; there
are a number of the faces very familiar to me ; they congregate about there regularly.
1023. Mr. Abigail.'] Do you know anything about the sanitary arrangements of these premises ? I have
never been over them, Mr. Abigail, but the stench proceeding from these places is very offensive indeed.
I may say that in passing by these places I have frequently met females ; whether they were in a delicate
state of health or not I cannot say ; but I have seen them spit in the gutter, and actually retch. _ The
smell I have most frequently noticed coming from these places is that of opium-smoking, and a kind of
garlic smell.
102-1. Tou know the smell of opium ? Tes.
1025. And you find it very strong and offensive ? Tes ; and it is accompanied often by the smell of
sulphur from the Chinese' quarters. I have had to call a policeman to suppress them from burning sulphur.
1023. With reference to the insults offered to women, can you describe what those insults consisted of?
That I cannot very easily define.
1027. Would they take hold of them, for example ? I believe it quite probable. In fact, one female told
me herself that on one occasion a Chinaman had run out and caught her by the arm, and asked her when
she was going to come in and stay a little while with him.
1028. Do you know any place in that neighbourhood used for the purpose of decoying young girls ? I
have not exactly taken notice, or ascertained anything in regard to that particular thing. Tou must
understand that things are carried on pretty quietly down there since it was publicly announced that the
League was in existence.
1029. How long is that ago ? Close on or about three months.
1030. Have you noticed any very young persons, mah or female, visiting these places ? Occasionally, I
have.
1031. Do you know what they go there for ? Well, I have sometimes seen them come out with tickets.
1032. That is lottery tickets, I suppose ? Tes.
1033. Have you heard of any young girls being entrapped into these places for immoral purposes ? I have
heard a remark to that effect, but as to its truth I cannot say.
1034. Tou have stated that Constable Wheelan asked you if the names of any policemen had been referred
to at meetings of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ; what led to that conversation ? It was one night
when I was coming away from one of the meetings of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League, and I met
Constable Wheelan on my way. He wanted to know if the name of any constable had been mentioned
as having received presents or anything of that kind. I told him that no names had been mentioned at
all, but that a charge had been laid as to the general inefficiency of the police in the district.
1035. Was that before the deputation went to the Colonial Secretary, or after ? To the best of my belief,
it was after.
1036. Were you present at that deputation ? Tes ; I was.
1037. Tou are credited with speaking there of one Chinaman who had made £60,000 a year by gaming,
and had sent the money home to China ? That is what I was told, but I spoke from hearsay only. I think
we got that information from Mr. Goldtown.
1038. From a Chinaman ? Tes ; a member of our League.
1039. When he made that statement, did he make other statements bearing on the question as well ? Tes ;
he made several ; but I cannot call them to mind now.
1040. Was this statement made to any individual members of the League, or was it said in the League
meetings ? I cannot say exactly where it was made now. 1 do not think it was said at a League meeting
proper, but most probably after we adjourned. We used generally to sit awhile after we adjourned, aa
the meetings were held in a public-house, and we would have a little refreshment before leaving, so as not
to use the landlord's room for nothing.
1041. After Mr. Goldtown made this statement did the officers of the League take any steps to test the
truth of what he had told them ? No. I think, after he made that statement, Mr. Armstrong, the
President of our League, waited on Mr. Quong Tart one day to find out whether Mr. Goldtown was a
man to be relied on or not.
1012. Did they obtain any evidence as to whether he was- a man of good character and reliability ? I did
not hear what was said.
1043. Did you personally, as Secretary of the League, not take any steps to test the truthfulness of this
man's statement ? No.
1044. Do you know who this man is, who was credited with sending £60,000 a year home to China? No ;
I did not ask him who the person was. I may say I was not correctly reported as to that. I made a
statement that the information I was giving was only from hearsay.
1045. I suppose you heard a statement made about the police — for instance, that the police were not
content with getting gold watches under three months, but wanted diamond rings, and other statements
from members of the League to the same effect ? Tes ; I know that such statements were made, but I
think it was distinctly stated by the members of the League forming the deputation that they were
proceeding on hearsay evidence only, and not on their own responsibility. . I do not think there were any
charges laid against the police directly by any member of the League as to receiving watches, etc.
1046. Mr. Black, M.P., stated : "The police were bribed, not only by chests of tea, but by gifts of money.
He had heard that for years "? Mr. Goldtown informed us of that, and said he would take us round,
and show us where the weekly dividends were handed over.
1047. Did your League not take any steps to ascertain the reliability of these very serious statements ? I
do Hot think so.
1048. Have you had any meeting since then ? Tes. 1049.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MISUTES OP EYIDENCE. 31
1049. And was the subject brought up at any meeting ;— was it decided or considered as to whether you Mr.
would take evidence or ascertain facts to sustain these statements ? I do not think we had the power to E> v* ■Eelly'
do it ; we simply claimed the assistance of the Government. 1(fl f^iaqi
1050. It was not done, you say ? No ; we had no locus standi to get that information. , eP •>
1051. Then we are to understand that your League did not discuss the question with a view of obtaining
evidence at this point ? I do not see how the League could find out the information. They would have
been bluffed in every way, as the officers of the Council were, if they had set about trying to find out the
facts.
1052. Have you, as secretary, or any other member of the League, any direct evidence to tender that will
sustain these serious charges ? I have not myself. I do not know what other members of the League
may have.
1053. Has the League considered this question with a view of framing suggestions as to how the evil is to
be remedied ? I do not know that there was a meeting for that purpose, but a suggestion was thrown out
that the police should be moved every three months— that is, the inspector in charge of the station, and
every man under him, should be shifted every three months, so that they would not get too well known in
the neighbourhood and become too familiar with the Chinese.
1054. And do you think that would cure the evil ? Tes ; and I think also that the Chinamen should be
relegated to one place, as, I believe, they are in Melbourne.
1055. Tou wonld confine them to one locality ? Tes, to one locality.
1056. Do you think the two suggestions you have made would encompass the whole difficulty ? I cannot
say that altogether. But something must be done if they are to remain in our midst. In none of these
places I have mentioned do they carry on legitimate business. They may have a few cases of soap or
packets of cigarettes in the window ; but I daresay if asked the price of soap they would not be able to
tell you, but would ask you straight away to play fan-tan. In passing by these places at night I myself
have been repeatedly solicited to go in and play fan-tan.
1057. Having had such experience, have you ever complained to the police on that beat with regard to it ?
I know the neighbours have spoken to them about it, and they have taken no notice. Personally, having
observed their general inactivity, I thought it useless to complain about the thing to them.
1058. Have you spoken to the police about individual Chinamen soliciting you to go in and play fan-tan?
No ; because I have repeatedly seen the police standing outside these places, appearing to be totally
inactive. They could see the people going in and out of the gambling-dens the whole time.
1059. But would it not have strengthened your position if you had reported this matter to the police ; —
do you not know that the Chinaman you referred to committed a breach of the law, and that he could
have been arrested and fined for the offence ? Well, these Chinamen are so much alike that I could not
swear that the Chinaman who solicited me was the real man or not, not knowing his name.
1060. Do you know anything of the Chinese secret societies ? No ; but I have heard that my life,
amongst others, has been threatened.
1061. Do they keep a banking account ? I cannot say that they do.
1062. Have you any knowledge of how many of these Chinese houses are used for gambling purposes ?
About twenty-three.
1063. Have you got the minute-book of the Chinese Anti-Gambling League ? Tes. I may tell you that
when we were arranging for the deputation to the Premier I took it upon myself, as a matter of courtesy,
to write to the Inspector-General of Police inviting him to be one of the deputation, because I heard
rumours of certain charges that were to be made as to the inactivity of 'the police force on duty in the
lower part of George-street, and that I thought it only right that he should be there.
1064. Tou have spoken of twenty-three Chinese houses in which gambling is carried on ? Tes.
1065. Are there any legitimate Chinese places of businessin that locality? Ten, such as Mr. OnTikLee,
Sun Kura Tiy, On Chong, and others. There are some whoso names I do not remember.
1066. In these places you do not think gambling is carried on ? No, unless it is carried on secretly, and
that I cannot say.
1067. Is there any opium-smoking in those houses ? I cannot say.
1068. Tou do not know of anything of a similar character to what you have been describing being carried
on in these houses ? Not in these places I have just mentioned.
1069. Have you heard of any Chinese losing considerable sums of money in the Chinese gambling-dens?
Only through Mr. Goldtown's conversation amongst us.
1070. Then it appears the action of the League was principally prompted by the statements received from
Mr. Goldtown? No ; the League was formed when the names of these sixty-five persons were attached
to the petition. "We found that the evil was increasing, and in a conversation amongst ourselves we
determined that the new party in the House would be able to give us some assistance, and we acted
accordingly. The matter was mooted several times, and deputations were got up ; but the thing was
shelved owing to something being urged about vested interest.
1071. Do you know anything about the ownership of these Chinese gambling-dens ? No. I may say that
, I have been working up a new business for two years ; and it was just because my business was gradually
falling off, and that people would not come and deal with me in " China-town/' that 1 allied myself with
the League.
1072. As a matter of fact, you cannot give any information from your own personal knowledge that would
sustain a charge of bribery as against the police ? No ; 1 can only speak of their general inactivity.
1073. Tou have formed an opinion that the police are negligent or inactive in the discharge of their duty
as regards this evil ? Tes, that is my opinion ; and it is the opinion of others besides myself. It seems
only natural to suppose from their inactivity that they must be in collusion with the Chinese. If I were
a police officer, and could not get my inspector to assist me, I would go straight to the Minister for
Justice and report the matter.
1074. Do you know of any police officer who has complained to his inspector, and the inspector has not
acted in accordance with his report ? I cannot say that ; but if I were a police officer, and made a report
to my inspector, if he did not act upon my report in a serious matter such as this I would report him to
head-quarters.
1075. Is it easy to get admission into these places ? Tes ; it has been easy, or rather it was when carried
on openly ; but since the League started it has not been carried on so openly.
1076. Do you know of any police that can give any information to the Commission as to their having made
reports
32
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETTDENCE.
reports to their superior officers about these gambling-dens ? How could I. I am comparatively a late
resident in that locality, and having to work up a new business I have tried to stick to it, and have not
had much opportunity of communicating with the police. The only policeman I have had any conver-
P '' ' sation with on the subject is Constable Quealy, who informed me that all we had to do was to keep the
thing going — to push Inspector Atwill, and we could get the thing removed in a week. That was
previous to his being dismissed.
1077. Do you know what he was dismissed for ? I have heard he was dismissed for drunkenness, but I
cannot say.
1078. Mr. Hawthorne.] Tou do not know yourself, from your own personal knowledge, anything about
the conduct of these Chinese gambling-dens, and their general character ? No ; I can only speak from
outside observation, and seeing the people on the footpath.
1079. Have you been inside any of these gambling-dens ? No ; and I do not want to.
1080. What was the object of starting the Anti-Chinese Gambling League on this hearsay evidence ?
"Well, some of the members of the League and myself knew for a fact that labouring men were continually in
the habit of going into these places and wasting their week's wages, and it was found that they came to
the shops and endeavoured to stick things up. Also, there was a general falling off in business. Then,
on fresh arrivals coming by one of the P. and O. boats, for instance, we would hear remarks such as,
"First impressions are bad," and, "We have arrived in aden of Chinamen," or something likethat. Also,
in going round to get customers, I ascertained from the Watson's Bay, Manly Beach, and North Shore
people that they would not use that part of the town at all. They object to the presence there of what
they call " China-town." That was the gist of their refusal to do business with me. Under the circum-
stances it was felt that something ought to be done.
1081. As business men, you are under the impression that if the Chinese were removed from that part of
Lower George-street the European residents would do a larger trade than they do at present ? I am
positive of it. All we are sorry for is that we cannot get immediate redress, and that we have got to
hang on until this inquiry finishes. I suppose some of lis will be up King-street before then.
1082. What would you suggest as an immediate remedy for the evil ? I would compel the Chinamen to
live as Europeans, stick to legitimate business, and not crowd in small houses — sometimes twenty in a
house ; in fact you cannot tell how many there are. Europeans would not be allowed to carry on in the
same way. The stench and filth is somethina horrible. Of course since the Commission has been started,
and since you made your inspection in a body, they have had time to clean 'up aud get the places white-
washed, aud have everything in prim style.
1083. Tou think that the starting of this Commission has had the effect of bringing about an improvement
in these places ? Yes; and I think the Anti-Chinese Gambling League can take great credit to them-
selves for having brought about the appointment of a Commission to inquire into the misdeeds of these
Chinamen, and no praise is at present due to the Commission.
1081. When you formed the deputation to Sir Henry Parkes what special object had you in view ? We
simply wished to amend the law so that we could get at these Chinamen — so that the police would have
power to go in at once and get at the landlord. If he knew that gambling was carried on in the premises
he should be summoned and cited for allowing it. That, in effect, is the prayer of our petition. We have
500 or 600 signatures to that petition already, and expect to get a much larger number, as it is desired
to make it a general question. If the Chinese were driven out of George- street they would go somewhere
else, because if a man had 5s. to spare he would not care where he went so long as he could gamble it.
1085. Mr. McJullop.'j The law, you think, is not sufficient at present? If they could imprison Chinamen
at Tingha they could do it in Lower George-street.
1086. Mr. Hawthorne.] Are the Chinese a moral class of people ? I cannot say myself. I am not con-
versant with the Chinese language. I hear a lot of hints thrown out about their character in that respect,
and have heard complaints of girls being decoyed into these places and drugged, but I cannot say myself.
1087. Mr. Quong Tart.] Tou say there are twenty-three of these gambling-houses in Lower George-
street ? Tes, to the best of my knowledge.
1088. Do you know which is the largest of these places — where the largest number of European and
Chinamen go ? I think it is that place on which the raid was made.
1089. Moy Ping's? Tes; and another one on the other side of the road. There are five or six places
where the shutters are never down in the daytime at all.
1090. Do you understand the game they play ? No ; but I have had it explained to me.
1091. Do you know anything about the lottery-tickets — what the numbers are, and so on ? I have seen
them. They contain Chinese characters, indicating that a certain number of marks entitles the holder to
so much, and so forth. I am very much averse to gambling, and take no interest in it. Since the League
started the Chinese have employed a man to go round every morning with a sugar-bag to pick up the
remains of the lottery-tickets flying about the street.
1092. Do you know the names of any Europeans who are in the habit of gambling with the Chinese in
Lower George-street ? There is one man I know who has gambled there. He told me that he borrowed
5s. and went into one of these places, and, having lost his money, pawned his watch and chain, and lost
the proceeds in the same house.
1093. Can you tell us that man's name ? Alfred Tounger ; he is employed on the " Eairlight," of the
Port Jackson Steamboat Company.
1094. Do you know any of the respectable Chinese merchants down there who are mixed up with this
gambling at all ? No ; I believe the respectable Chinese merchants down there are totally averse to it,
and are sufferers from it.
1095. Are they in favour of your League ? Well, Mr. Goldtown told us that he represented twenty-five
Chinese merchants who had subscribed £25, which they wanted to hand over to the League, but we
refused, on the ground that we were fighting the Chinese, and did not want to take Chinese money.
1096. Do you know any other Chinese merchants down there besides Mr. Goldtown ? Yes ; there is
On Chong and On Tik Lee.
1097. And their houses are kept clean, and so on— there is nothing to complain of? No ; I may remark
that some six months ago I had to call a policeman on to my own premises ; the Chinese residents next
door were burning sulphur to such an extent that the family were almost smothered.
1098. Have you noticed any policemen standing outside the doors of these gambling-houses ? Yes,
repeatedly. iqqq
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
as
1099. That^ is, while the gambling is going on? Tes ; I have already said that on one occasion some J^i-
members of our League went into one of these places and took lottery tickets, and afterwards offered to ■"" *• KeiIy-
give themselves up, but the policemen only laughed at them. losT^891
1100. Can you give us the name of the constable ? No ; I cannot tell you his name. The members of ep ''
the League were Mr. Christensen, Mr. Armstrong, and another man, an" outsider, who used to be in the
employ of Mr. Christenson ; he goes by the name of " Big Ted."
1101. At what hour is the gambling mostly going on ? I have mostly noticed it after shutting up my
establishment for the night. I generally go for a stroll up town with my wife, and have noticed it most
particularly on Sunday night. I have often noticed the policemen passing up and down outside, and
taking no'notice of it.
1102. How long is it since you started business in Lower George-street ? October, two years ago.
1103. Did you notice any gambling-houses down there when you first started business ? Tes ; but it has
become worse instead of better. I was led to believe that there was a good business to be worked up
there ; but I doubt if I shall stop there another three months unless these Chinese are driven out. They
will come and say, " Me shut you up— me pay more than you." They have been known to offer £150 to
induce a tenant to clear out and let them come in.
1104. T notice, by your minute of the 21st August, that you were instructed to give to the secretary of
this Commission the names of persons likely to be able to give valuable information to this Commission; —
will you do that ? Tes ; I have only waited for a cominiinication from the secretary in the first place.
I shall be happy to give him all the assistance in my power, and I am surprised that he has not had the
foresight to ask me for my assistance. I should say that Mr. Nock was told privately from a Chinese
friend that his life was in danger — to keep away from meetings of the League, or he would be killed.
The names of the secretary and treasurer were also mentioned, together with Mr. Armstrong, the president.
1105. Are you afraid ? Not in daylight, when I can see them and deal with them ; but that is not
when they could do the business.
1106. Tou will supply the information referred to? Tes, certainly, and trust that you gentlemen will do
something to get us redress.
[The witness desires that it should be placed on record that he objected to the presence of Mr. Lisson,
the Chinese interpreter, during his examination, and that Mr. Lisson accordingly withdrew.]
Mr. Robert Nolan called and examined : —
1107. President.'] What is your occupation? I am an ironmonger's assistant, and am employed at Messrs. Mr.
Felton and Nock's. R. Nolan.
1108. Do you live there ? No. s~* n
1109. Are you a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? No. 10 Sept., 1891.
1110. Tou know that gambling is carried on in a number of Chinese houses in Lower George-street ? Tes.
1111. Are you of opinion that the police are well aware of the fact ? I believe they are thoroughly
aware of it.
1112. Have you ever been into these gambling-houses yourself? Tes; I have gone in, and have seen
people of all classes playing there.
1113. It is a notorious fact, is it not, that gambling is carried on to a very large extent in these gambling-
houses down Lower George-street ? Tes ; it is a well known fact.
1114. And you are of opinion that the policemen are well aware of it? Tes.
1115. Have you heard any accusations made against the police of taking bribes for non-intervention in
regard to this evil ? In the course of ordinary conversation I have.
1116. Tou do not know of any particular policeman having been convicted of accepting a bribe ?
No, sir.
1117. If there was corruption amongst the police, and they connived at this breach of the law, then do
you think the corruption or connivance must have been general throughout the force? I do not say that.
So far as the knowledge of the existence of these gambling-houses is concerned it may be said to be
general; but as to corruption, I do not think it is.
1118. Then, how do you account for the police not taking action ? Well, as it goes in the course of
ordinary conversation, it is on account of the police taking bribes.
1119. In that case, how do you account for the non-intervention of the police you have omitted from the
general charge ? I cannot answer you there.
1120. Tou cannot account for the opinion you hold in that regard ; you simply say it may not be
general ? Y es ; that is all.
1121. And you cannot give any reason for that belief ? No reasons of my own.
1122. Do you know Constable Carson ? I do.
1123. And Constable Beadman ? Tes.
1124. Did you ever hear them iu conversation with Mr. Nock at all ? Tes ; several times.
1125. Was it lately ? No ; some time ago.
1126. How long is it when last you heard them in conversation with Mr. Nock ? It is some months ago.
.1127. Before the establishment of the League ? Oh, yes.
1128. Do you know the nature of the last conversation ? Well, in a sort of way, I do. Mr. Nock was
finding fault with the police in general for not doing their duty. — I did not hear names mentioned — in
not clearing out these Chinese, on account of the pest they were, and the reply of the police was, " Oh,
we cannot do anything," or something to that effect. Something was also said about Members of Parlia-
ment owning the places, and also about "vested interests." I did not pay much attention.
1129. And that is all you can remember about the conversation ? That is all.
1130. An important conversation, such as you have told us took place, simply ended with the remark by
Mr. Nock, that the police did not do their duty in the matter of putting down these gaming-houses ?
That is all that took place.
1131. On that occasion ? Tes.
1132. Did you ever draw Mr. Nock's attention to these two men being in the gambling-houses ? Tes, on
many occasions.
1133. Did you ever hear a conversation between Mr. Nock and Constables Carson and Beadman as to
their attendance at those shops ? I heard a conversation between him and Beadman. I heard Mr. Nock
tell Beadman one day that he was surprised to see him going into these places so frequently, and he
272 — E replied
31 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EYIDEKCE.
Mr. replied, "I told you before the property is owned by members of Parliament and other influential men,
E. Nolan, and if we turn the tenants out they cannot get respectable people to occupy them;" Mr. Nock said,
/'~^-*-—"-> ''■ That's the second time you've told me that, will you allow me to make use of that statement ?" he said,
lOSopt.,1891. „ you must think me a i\00([j f00j >'
1134. I suppose these constables attended various houses ? Tes ; I have seen them in several.
1135. Can you give the names of the houses ? No. I have seen them in one next " Power's Hotel," and
in one next the " American Exchange Hotel." I have also seen them in company with a certain Hing
Jang. I have served him several times when behind the counter.
113(5. "Did he suggest to Constable Carson or Constable Bead man that they were interested in winking at
the existence of these gambling practices ? I cannot give you any particulars of the conversation further
than what I have stated.
1137. Did you ever hear any conversation of that kind in which Mr. Nock insinuated to these men that
they took bribes ? No.
1138. Did you ever hear any allusion made to the police having received presents of anything in the
shape of a diamond ring, a watch and chain, chests of tea, or jars of ginger? Yes; I have heard of
chests of tea and things of that kind.
1130. In a conversation which took place between Mr. Nock and whom ? I think I heard some words
between Mr. Nock and Mr. Inspector Atwill.
1140. Tou remember a conversation between Mr. Nock and Inspector Atwill, at which it was
insinuated that inspector took presents from the Chinese ? No, not directly.
1141. Well, tell us in your own way about these chests of tea and jars of ginger, and whom they were
given to ? It was on the Friday afternoon before tbe late raid was made on the Lower Creorge-street
gambling-houses. Inspector Atwill came into the shop and asked if Mr. Nock was in. I brought Mr.
Nock down, and a conversation took place between them. Something was said about who the different
places belonged to, and what they were built for. Inspector Atwill said tbe places were built for Chinese
gambling-dens, and, so far as the police were concerned, they could do nothing, because of the difficulties
of surprising the keepers of these places. There was, he said, a door here and a door there, and it was a
very difficult matter to get into them. During the course of the conversation I heard Mr. Nock mention about
half -chests and chests of tea being hawked about at Christmas-time, and there must be someone concerned.
1142. Tes ; — and what did Inspector Atwill reply to that ? "Well, I was passing to and fro at the time,
and I could not say what he replied to it. 1 know Mr. Atwill wound up by saying, " My dear man,
the best thing you can do is to come and help us. Will you go into these places at night and let us in ?
1143. Did you ever see Constables Carson and Beadman inside in the room where they play fan-tan ?
No ; only in the front shop.
1144. They do not usually play fan-tan so openly, I believe ? No.
1145. And in a back room, as a rule ? Tes.
1146. Have you ever seen these constables engaged in gambling themselves ? Not with the Chinese.
1147. Among themselves ? Tes, with dominoes, I have.
1148. In these Chinese places ? No ; in the Coffee Palace Hotel across the road.
1149. Would they be on duty when they were indulging in this game r I suppose so, but I cannot say.
1150. Were they in uniform on the occasions you saw them ? No ; plain clothes. They are always in
plainclothes, these two particular men.
1151. Tou do not know of your own knowledge of any presents having passed between the Chinese and
the police ? No ; not of my own personal knowledge.
1152. Can you tell us of any person who has made a present to any policeman of any grade ? No.
1153. Tou cannot give a single instance ? No ; not a single instance.
1154. Then the opinion you have formed about the matter is entirely based upon supposition? Tes;
quite upon supposition.
1155. Cannot you give us an actual fact ? Well anyone going there from half -past 7 o'clock till 10 can
see for themselves. I should think that the police could put a stop to it if they like.
1156. Then you have come to the conclusion that there must be corruption somewhere ? Well, yes ; there
must be something in it, I think.
1157. But you cannot mention any particular instance ? No, sir.
1158. Mr. McKillop.] Tou think it looks very suspicious ? There is no suspicion about it. If you go
by our shop any time after 6 o'clock, you will find a man at each of the doors, and they will ask you to
go in and play, if they think you are a fit and proper person. They asked me several times, but they
know me well now, and do not do so.
1159. Mr . Hawthorne.] Is that the ease every night ? Tes ; lean guarantee you will find them there to-night.
1160. President.'] Could you not remember an occasion when Constables Carson and Beadman were in
the back rooms, where they play fan-tan ? No.
1161. Could they see the people in the back room through the glass door ? No.
1162. Do you know if the police have ever disturbed them at the game ? Now and again, occasionally.
1163. Is there generally a stampede when the police make their appearance on the scene? Tes; a
regular stampede.
1164. Have you ever been present when there was a visitation by the police ? No ; but I have seen them
come out of the back lane, when there has been one of those visitations.
1165. The exits are very numerous at the back ? Tes.
1166. How long have you been in the neighbourhood of Lower George- street? About three years and ahalf.
1167. During that time can you give a rough idea of how many times the police have made such visitations
and disturbed them ? Twice or three times, I think.
1168. Only two or three times during the whole of that time ? Tes.
1169. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Have you seen any members of the police force going with a Chinaman into an
oyster-saloon at that end of the town ? No.
1170. Would that be at the cost of the Chinaman, do you think? Tes ; at least that was the impression
conveyed to my mind.
1171. Who were the policemen who were in the habit of going into this place with a Chinaman ? Con-
stables Beadman and Carson.
1172. Can you give us the name of the Chinaman? Hing Jang.
1173. Have you ever seen any other Chinaman going in with them ? Tes.
1174. Who ? Moy Ping. 1175.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
35
1175. Would you know the man if you saw him ? Tes. ^r-
1176. Anyone else ? Tes ; there were two other little Chinamen ; I cannot say who they were. B- •NoIan-
1177. "Would the police first go to the houses of these Chinamen, and then go over to the Coffee Palace fZ ^TT^
Hotel ? No ; they would pick them up on the footpath. 10 Bept-' 18tf
1178. That is, meet them casually ? Yes.
1179. And you say the impression conveyed to your mind was that the Chinamen took these constables
in to stand treat ? Tes ; that is the fact, I am sure. I have seen them in the coffee palace at dinner.
1180. And appearing to be on most friendly terms ? Tes ; very friendly terms.
1181. Are these the policemen who are supposed to have received presents of diamond rings and so forth ?
They say so — that is the rumour.
1182. Have you ever seen them hold up their ha,nds to show their rings ? I have.
1183. What impression was conveyed to your mind by that action? 1 cannot say, unless it was done in
mockery. I have seen them hold up their hands to show rings on fingers and pull out their watches.
1184. Have you seen them gesticulate like that on more than one occasion ? JNTo ; I have seen them do
it to Mr. Nock at our door. They were just like two school-boys.
1185. It struck you that they were guilty of conduct unbecoming policemen ? Certainly.
1186. Mr. McKillop.] The Chinamen you saw going in with these policemen for refreshment, were they
keepers of these gambling dens or respectable Chinamen ? So far a3 I know they were respectable men.
1187. Tou have mentioned Moy Ping — he keeps a gambling-house? Tes.
1188. Then when you say respectable I suppose you mean respectable to look at ? Tes.
1189. Have you ever noticed girls — mere children, or both boys and girls — entering these gambling-dens
in Lower G-eorge-street ? No ; but I have noticed middle-aged women of loose character.
1190. Mr. Abigail^] Do you know anything about the sanitary condition of these places ; I believe the
smells emanating from them are very objectionable ? Tes ; the smells from those places are something
horrible. Sometimes, as you are passing by, they will be burning something, the smell of which is
literally enough to knock you down.
1191. Do you know whether these places are very much overcrowded or not by residents ? That I
cannot say from actual experience ; but I have seen them flock out there sometimes like — I cannot tell
you what : — that is, I can scarcely describe it. They flock out in droves when there is a row on there
with their countrymen.
1192. Is there much opium smoking carried on there ? Tes ; there is any amount of it carried on in the
basement.
1193. Have you ever smoked opium ? No.
1194. Tou do not know the effect of it ? No.
1195. Do you know anything about women being interfered with while going up and down Lower George-
street ? Tes ; it is a common occurrence every night. I could point out the Chinamen who do it.
1196. Can you give us their names ? No.
1197. But you can point them out ? Tes.
1198. Have you ever made any reports to the police about that? No ; except on one occasion I spoke
to one constable about it, and he said, " Oh, well, I cannot help it ; if police officers will go bumming
round there all day smoking cigars, it is not our fault."
1199. Do you know the name of that constable ? I do ; but I would rather not give it to you. I do not
think it is necessary.
1200. It is very necessary, and you must give it, if you please ? Well, it was Constable Adair.
1201. That was a reflection upon the other constables there ? Tes ; I suppose it was. It was only the
other day he said that to me.
1202. He said, at any rate, in clear terms, that nothing could be done when other policemen went
bumming round smoking cigars ? Tes.
1203. Do you know if in any of these houses women are kept for immoral purposes ? I do not think so.
1204. Have you ever noticed any children — boys and girls — going there for gambling purposes ? No ; only
boys.
1205. Do you know anybody who could give practical evidence with regard to this alleged bribery of the
police ? Tes.
1206. Be good enough to give us the names, please ? A man named Bowker. He lives somewhere inj
Princes-street.
1207. Mr. McKillop.] He is a carpenter, is he not? Tes.
1208. Mr. Abigail.'] Is he often to be found in these places ? Tes.
1209. Do you know any others ? Tes ; there are three or four others.
1210. Can you give the names ? I cannot give the names. They went by some names in the Sunday
Times. 1 have heard them sing it out in the street.
1211. Mr. McKillop.] Do you know anything of a bill or account for a wardrobe or cabinet being made
out to Mr. Inspector Atwill on behalf of Ah Toy ? No.
1212. Mr. Quong Tart.] Tou have mentioned the Chinaman named Hing Jang ? Tes ; he lives next to
Mrs. Powers' hotel. He is a tall man. He has something the matter with one of his eyes.
1213. Do you know of any respectable Chinese merchants in Lower George-street connected with
gambling operations ? I do not. I have heard something about Sun Kum Tiy and Sun Hing Jang I think
1214. Mr. Abigail.] The Constable Adair you speak of is a senior constable, is he not ? Tes.
1215. Mr. McKillop.] Have you ever seen Inspector Atwill speaking to the Chinese down in your
quarter ? Tes.
1216. In a free and easy manner ? Tes.
1217. Mr. Quong Tart.] Do you know anything about these lotteries — the way they are conducted ? No •
I never went into them.
1218. Mr. Hawthorne. Tou have seen fan-tan, and played it ? Tes.
1219. Did you win any money at it ? I cannot say whether I won or lost.
1220. Mr. Quong Tart.] Do you know how many Chinese there are keeping these gambling-houses ?
About thirty, I should say.
1221. How many respectable Chinese do you know there? There are two or three men known to us •
Mr. On Lee, and two or three others,, whose names I do not know.
1222.
36 CHINESE OA.MBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 1222. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you know if any prostitution is carried on in that quarter ? There is any
R. Nolan. amount of it — in Queen-street; in some of the houses there they have regular bunks built for them,
loq^^isoi 1223. Prostitutes? Yes.
aopl"18y • 1224. The traffic is confined to Chinamen of a lower order and native girls? Tes ; I often see them
going there.
1225. Mr. McKillop.] The street is right opposite to your place, is it not ? Tes, you turn round by a
fruit-shop, up the lane. I have seen them going round there in numbers.
122G. Have you ever been into any of the houses in which these prostitutes congregate? No, never;
but I have heard men say who visited those places that they have actually been driven out by the stench.
1227. What day was it on which you had the conversation you have described with Constable Adair?
This week, on Tuesday.
122S. Did he seem to be greatly put about by these wholesale allegations which have been made against
the police ? No.
1229. Did he seem to be a bit annoyed ? No ; he is not a man to show his annoyance.
1230. Mr. Hawthorne.'] How did the conversation arise ? We were talking about these Chinese gambling-
dens, and nothing being done.
1231. Were you discussing the appointment of the Commission ? No.
1232. Mr. McKillop.] All classes of people go to these gambling-shops I understand? Tes.
1233. And gambling is going on during the seven days of the week ? Tes.
1234. At night-time also ? Yes.
1235. Has it dropped off at all since this Commission started ? Tes, it has to a very considerable extent.
A s I came along to-day the place had quite a deserted appearance.
1236. Is there any particular day on which the gambling is principally carried on ? Tes, on Saturday
afternoon — pay-day.
1237. On Sunday also ? Tes; but I do not think they are so busy on Sunday ; the busiest time is on
Saturday afternoon, at about 2 o'clock.
1238. Tou are salesman in your establishment, are you not ? Tes.
1239. Has there been any noticeable falling off in your business ? Tes ; in our place the trade has fallen
off considerably during the last two years.
1240. To what do you attribute that falling off in business ? Principally to the increase of these
Chinese houses. There are twelve of them this side of us.
1241. And people — respectable people — will not pass that way ? No. I have heard Mr. Downton, a
grocer, and Mr. Johnson say their customers will not go that way to transact their ordinary business,
but go up Pitt-street rather.
1242. Do you believe that the police could remove this evil if they liked ? I do. I heard a police
officer say that he could shift the lot of them.
1243. Do you know his name ? No.
1244. Is he serving in that district ? I believe so.
1245. Is he a constable or a sergeant ? I do not know.
1246. Would you know him if you saw him ? Tes.
1247. Would you kindly try and find out this information, and send it to the Secretary ? Yes.
1248. Mr. Inspector Atwill, you say, has stated that nothing can be done to remove this evil? The
night before the raid I heard him say to Mr. Nock that it was impossible for him to do anything.
1249. Did he give any reason ? The only reason he gave was with regard to the arrangement of the
doors in the interior of these places, remarking that by the time they could get to the third door, all the
people would be away.
1250. Did Mr. Nock make any remark about surrounding the place ? Tes ; he said it was the simplest
thing in the world.
1251. What did Mr. Atwill say to that ? Inspector Atwill said, "Let us see what assistance you will
give us," and I think Mr. Noak said he would give all the assistance in his power, or something to
that effect.
1252. Has Constable Adair the power to enter these gambling-houses ? Tes ; I suppose so.
1253. Does he frequent these places the same as Constable Carson and Beadman ? No ; I have never
seen him near them.
1254. Have you ever seen in the papers advertisements for woman servants to apply to places in Lower
George-street ? Tes ; several times. I could not say who put them in.
1255. What numbers were they to apply to ? No. 192, I think. We are numbered 194 and 196, and
young women used to come in to our place to make inquiries as regards the advertisements.
1256. Were they young girls ? Tes ; young servant girls.
1257. Were they respectable looking ? Yes.
1258. Do you think the advertisements were put in by the Chinese ? That I cannot say.
1259. But you think it looked suspicious ? Very suspicious.
1260. Mr. Hawthorne.] They were put in by your firm ? No.
1261. As these advertisements were not put in by your firm, and as the numbers of the houses are similar,
the inference is that they were put in by the Chinese ; — is that your opinion? Yes. There are no white
people nearer to us than twelve or thirteen doors off.
1202. Mr. McKillop.] Your place is next door to Ah Toy's ? Yes.
1263. There is no gambling going on there, I suppose? Oh, no.
1264. Are you of opinion that, on account of these Chinese shops in that locality, the rents there have
increased considerably ? Yes.
1265. If these people want a building they do not care what price they pay for it ? No.
1266. Do you know of offers of money being made to European residents to quit their premises ? Yes.
1267. Will you mention one ? Yes. Mr. Chazell, I was informed, got £150 to clear from one side of
the road to the other.
1268. Do you know of any other ? I do not know of any other personally, but I believe one or two
others were offered similar sums to that.
1269. Do you know anything about a man who kept a shooting gallery? Yes ; that is a long time ago.
I never heard whether he got anything.
1270.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. o7
1270. Are you a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League? No. Mr-
1271. Tou do not reside in that part of the City ? No. K Nolau-
1272. Are there any Chinese in the quarter where you live ? No. ,/T^T^-.
1 J 10 Sept., 1891.
Ah Toy called and examined : —
1273. President.] Where do you reside ? In Lower George-street. Ah Toy.
1274. "What business do you carry on there ? I am a cabinet-maker. ,-^*_^
1275. How long have you been there ? I have been thirty-six years in this country. 10 Sept., 1891.
127(3. How long have you been in business in Lower George-street ? Oh, a long time there.
1277. Do you know Inspector Atwill ? Yes.
1278. Did he ever buy anything from you in the shape of furniture ? Yes.
1279. What did he buy ? A book-ease.
1280. What was the size of the book-case ? It was 3 feet by 10 feet. I think. It was a long time ago.
1281. What was the height of it ? About 7 feet 6 inches.
1282. Was it built of cedar ? Yes.
1283. A first-elass book-case ? Oh, yes. I sold it a long time ago.
1284. What would you charge me for one of those book-cases ? Sometimes I sell them for £6 10s. or £7.
If I had it for a long time I would sell it cheap. If it was a friend I would give it him cheaper. If he
was a good man, who looked after me in the city.
1285. Do you make wardrobes ? Yes.
1286. Did you ever sell a wardrobe to Inspector Atwill ? No. I sold one to Inspector Anderson.
1287. When was that ? I cannot say — a long time ago. He paid me full money. I sold to Mr. Eead,
Superintendent of Police, too.
1288. What did you sell to him ? It is too long to remember.
1289. When did you sell that book-case to Inspector Atwill? About eighteen months ago, I think.
1290. You say he never paid you for it, I think ? Who said so — why would I give it for nothing ?
1291. Did he pay you for that book-case ? Yes — £5 cash.
1292. When did he pay you that cash ? A long time ago. I said, " Never mind the bill."
1293. When you gave him the book-case he paid you cash ? Yes.
1294. You did not give him a receipt ? No.
1295. When the men took the book-case away. Mr. Atwill paid him the money, and there was nothing
further done ? No.
1298. Do you remember going into Mr. Nock's shop, one day, two or three months ago ? Yes.
1297. That was to get somebody to make out a bill for you ? Yes. That was for the book-case, but the
money was paid a long time ago.
1298. How did he pay you, in notes or gold ? In notes.
1299. How can you remember so well that he paid you in notes ? I recollect he paid me in notes, and I
recollect Mr. Anderson paid me in notes the same.
1300. Did you say you sold the book-case to Mr. Atwill for £7 ? No ; £5.
1301. What did you give it to Inspector Atwill for £5, seeing that you were in the habit of selling
them for £6 10s. and £7 ? Well, if I have a friend I sometimes give it to him for less.
1302. Inspector Atwill is a friend of yours ? No ; not a friend of mine.
1303. Then how did you come to sell this book-case for £5 ? Well, sometimes if people know me for a
long time I give them something for nothing.
1304. Is it true that you are interested in one of those gambling-houses down in Lower George-street?
Who said there was gambling in my house ?
1305. Is it true that you are interested in any of the gambling-houses in Lower George-street — answer
me straightforwardly? I have nothing to do with that — I know nothing about it.
1306. Are any of your friends interested in any of these houses ? I have no friends in the gambling-
houses.
1307. Not friends among your countrymen ? Oh, plenty of friends.
1308. Have you not friends among your countrymen keeping gambling-houses there? I have nothing to
do with gambling — I am a cabinet-maker.
1309. Do not evade my questions. Tell me, shortly, have you not among your countrymen some friends
who are keeping gambling-houses down there ? There are some men I know.
13 L0. You have been there a long time, and know them? Yes.
131 1. Is Inspector Atwill very kind to any of these friends ? I do not know anything about that.
1312. Do vou know a policeman named Quealy ? I do not know the policeman.
1313. Or Carson? No.
1314. Or Beadman — do you know him ? I do not know any of them.
1315. You only know Inspector Atwill ? Yes.
1316. Do you know of Inspector Atwill making a raid upon a Chinese house down there ? I know
nothing about that.
1317. Not Moy Ping's ? I do not know.
1318. Do you not know Moy Ping ? Yes, I know Moy Ping.
1319. Is Moy Ping a friend of yours ? He has been a long time in the city, and comes into my shop.
1320. Is he a friend of yours ? No friend of mine.
1321. Do you speak to him ? Of course I speak to him.
1322. Did he ever lend you any money ? What would he lend me any money for ?
1323. I ask you did he lend you any money? No.
1324. Did you ever lend the inspector any money ? No.
1325. How many men have you working for you in your establishment? I had sixty men working for
me at one time.
1326. All working in the one shop ? No, not in the one shop ; I have a store next door.
1327. How many shops have you now ? I have one shop now, and a big yard.
1328. And how many men ? Twenty-one, I. think.
1329. All Chinese ? Sometimes Chinese, and sometimes European.
1330. How many Chinese have you there now ? Twenty-one.
1331. Are they all cabinet-makers ? No ; there are two servants, four polishers, and one cook.
1332.
38 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
All Toy. 1332. Do they all sleep there ? Tcs.
' ~"-^~n 1333. How many rooms are there in the house ? Fifteen rooms.
10 Sept., 1891. 1334. When the men have done work what do they do in the evening? I cannot tell you that. I do
not know when they go out and when they come in.
1335. You live there ? Yes, upstairs.
1336. Are you married ? Yes.
1337. Do you allow the men to bring women into your shop ? Oh, no ; I do not allow that.
1338. What was it Inspector Atwill said to you when he came to ask you for that account? He said, now
that there was trouble with these gambling-houses, people might say that he got it — the book-case — as a
present if he had not the receipt.
1339. You say he paid you the £5 in cash — in gold ? No, not in gold, in notes.
1340. On what bank were the notes ? I cannot answer that.
1311. Do you enter these transactions in your books ; — when you sell a book-case do you put it down in a
book ? No ; no books for small cash purchases. I keep books for big people running an account.
1342. Have you a banking account ? Yes.
1343. Do you pay the notes into a bank ? Sometimes ; but I pay a good deal of money away.
1344. What did you do with the money you got from Inspector Atwill? I cannot say ; perhaps I paid
it away for wages and grub — provisions.
1345. "Who carted the book-case up to Mr. Atwill's place ? It is too long ago to remember.
1346. Is it true that the book-case was taken up in the night-time ; — I want you to be very careful how
you answer that question ? I forget ; it is too long to remember.
1347. You can remember that Inspector Atwill paid you in notes, and yet you cannot remember
whether the book-case was sent to him in the night-time. You must be very careful. If you do not
answer these questions properly we shall have to take steps to compel you to do so. I want you to tell
me now if you sent that book-case up to Inspector Atwill's house in the night-time ? I am trying to
think. I cannot tell which vanman took it away. I think it was about half -past 5 o'clock, or something
like that. I could not get a vanman to take it away.
1348. Do you ever deliver your furniture at night-time ? Up to 6 o'clock.
1349. Do you deliver after 6 ? Sometimes half -past 6.
1350. At what hour do you shut up shop ? At half -past 6.
1351. "Was it not 8 o'clock at night when you sent that book-case to Inspector Atwill's house ? No ;
I recollect it was not.
1352. How can you recollect now, when 5 minutes ago you said you could not recollect anything about
it ? I know ; I am sure.
1353. Did you ever sell anything else to Inspector Atwill ? I only polished his furniture.
1354. "When did you polish his furniture last ? I forget all about it now.
1355. You can form some idea, I suppose ? I cannot remember.
1356. "Was it twelve months ago, or six months ago ? I forget what date, I have such a lot of people
working for me.
1357. You must tell me as near as you can the date when you last did work for Mr. Atwill ? About
three years ago, I think,
1358. How do you recollect now ? "Well, I do not remember — I cannot swear. He asked for a man to
do some polishing about three years ago, I think.
1359. "What polishing did you do for him then ? It was an old wardrobe, I think, to be done up.
1360. Only a wardrobe ? That is all, I think.
1361. Is it not a fact that at Christmas-time before last, or last Christmas-time, you made Inspector
Atwill a present ? "What would I give him a present for ?
1362. I want you to tell me that ? I gave him nothing.
1363. Did you not, last Christmas, give Inspector Atwill a present? I never gave him anything.
1364. Did you make a present to any other policeman down there at Christmas ? No.
1365. What did you charge Inspector Atwill for the job of polishing you did for him? I do not
recollect now — perhaps 5s. for the half -day.
1366. Did you get the money for it ? The man would get the money when the job was finished to give
to me. I forget all about it.
1367. You know there is a Chinese Society in Sydney ? I know nothing about it ; I have not joined it.
1368. You know Way Kee ? Yes.
1369. Is he not treasurer or president of a Chinese society ? I do not know anything about it.
1370. You swear that positively ? Yes.
1371. Do you not know a society called the " Koong Yee Tong " ? No.
1372. Or the " Loong Yee Tong " ? I know nothing about it.
1373. When you die do you not wish to have your bones taken to China ? I never think about it.
1374. Do not your countrymen wish that done as a rule ? Some may like it.
1375. Many of them like it ? Yes.
1376. And do they not pay money into a society to have that done ? I know nothing about it.
1377. Are you quite sure you have not had visits from your countrymen to ask for subscriptions ? Yes ;
sometimes they come and ask for 10s. or £1.
1378. What is the money used for ? To send old bones to China.
1379. Who is the man who keeps the money ? I know nothing about it.
1380. Whom did you pay the money to ? I do not know. Some Chinaman coming in for subscriptions.
I did not ask questions about the man's name.
1381. When anybody came in and asked you for a subscription you would give the money ? Yes.
1382. That is very good of you ; — if I went into your shop and asked you to subscribe money would you
give it to me ? Perhaps so.
1383. You know Way Kee ? Yes.
1384. Did he not get the money you subscribed ? I do not know anything about it.
1385. Have you ever been summoned or proceeded against by the police for anything ? What would
they summon rae for ?
[The further examination of the witnesses was postponed until next sitting day.]
FRIDAY,
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 39
FRIDAY, 11 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
present:—
The Mayor op Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pkesident.
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG- TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Ah Toy further examined : —
1386. President.'] Did you stay in Lower George-street last night? Yes. Ah Toy.
1387. In your own house ? Tes. /^^_a_^-n
1388. Did you go out at all? No. 11 S ept., 1891.
1389. Have you been thinking about the matter during the night ? Tes, I have.
1390. Can you tell us anything more than you told us yesterday ? No.
1391. You cannot think whether it was in the night or not that you delivered that book-case to Inspector
Atwill? No.
.1392. Do you always employ the same van-man to take your furniture out? No ; I employ two or three.
1393. Can you tell us the name of the van-man who took the book-case to Mr, Atwill ? No ; I cannot
remember.
1394. But he was one of three, was he ? No ; I cannot say that.
1395. But you have just told us that you employed three men to deliver furniture ? Yes.
1396. So that it was probably one of those three men who took the furniture to Inspector Atwill ? I
cannot say ; I have forgotten all about it.
1397. But is it not true that you get three men to do this work for you — you take one man one day,
another man another day, and the third man some other time ? Yes.
1398. What are the names of these men ? One man has not been working for me for a long time.
1399. I do not want to know that — I want to know what the names of these three men are ? Well, I
have one man called Tom working for me now, and another called William ; I have forgotten the name
of the other.
1400. Well, will you point all three out to the Secretary of the Commission any time he comes down
to ask you to do so ? Yes ; I will do that.
140L. Were you talking last night to any white man ? No.
1402. Did not Inspector Atwill come to see you last night ? No.
1403. Did any of Inspector AtwilFs men ? No.
1404. Did Inspector Atwill know that you were coming here yesterday ? No.
1405. Did you see Mr. Way Kee last night ? No.
1406. Have you seen Mr. Way Kee during the week ? No ; I do not speak much to any Chinamen. I
keep to myself,
1407. Have you ever heard of any of your countrymen paying money to any of the policemen down
there ? No.
1408. Or making them presents of rings ? No ; I have got enough men of my own to look after.
1409. Your countrymen are very good sometimes to their friends, and send them presents of tea and
ginger ? A Chinaman who has a good heart will give a box of tea or some other present. There is
nothing in that.
1410. Do you know a Chinaman named Moy Hing ? No.
1411. He is a partner in the firm of Kwong Hing Chong ? No ; I do not know anything about them.
1412. Did Inspector Atwill come to you again after you gave him the receipt ? No.
1413. Did he come himself for the receipt ? No ; he sent a police servant.
1414. Did you not say yesterday that he came himself to ask you for the receipt ? No ; he spoke to me
in the street, but he sent his servant for the receipt.
1415. It was a policeman that he sent to you ? Yes.
1416. Do you know the policeman's name ? No, I do not ; he was a very old policeman.
14 L7. Mr. Mc Kill op.] Is he down there now ? Yes.
1418. President.'] Is be on duty in Lower George-street ? Yes.
1419. Was he in uniform when he came for the receipt ? Yes.
1420. Had you ever seen the constable before ? Oh, I have seen him years ago.
1421. Down George-street? Yes.
1422. Could you point him out to us ? Yes.
1423. Will you point him out to the Secretary ? Yes.
1424. When had he better go down to see him ? Oh, any day.
1425. Will he be on duty this afternoon? He is minding the cells at No. 4.
1426. And what did he say to you when he came from Inspector Atwill ? He said that he wanted the
bill.
1427. About which the inspector has spoken to you in the street ? Yes.
1328. And what did you say ? I said " I cannot write it myself, but will get some one else to do it."
1429. Where did Inspector Atwill meet you when he asked you about the bill ? At my shop-door.
1430. And tell us now what he said ? He said, " Why, when you sold that book-case did you not give
me a bill ?" I said, " Do you want me to give you a bill ?" and he said " Yes, I have got big children
and little children, and they will want by-and-by to know how much I paid for it."
1431. He said that he wanted the bill so that his children, when they grew up, would know what he gave
for the book-case ? Yes.
1432. He said nothing about the Commission ? No.
1433. Did you not tell me yesterday that Inspector Atwill told you that he wanted the bill to show to
the Commission ? No ; I never said that yesterday.
1434. You are quite sure you did not say that yesterday ? Quite.
1435. And, as a matter of fact, he never said anything about the Commission to you ? No.
1436. He simply told you that he wanted the bill receipted, so that his children might know what he gave
for the book-case ? Yes.
1437. You are quite sure that he paid you for it? Yes. 1438.
40 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Ah Toy. 1438. You remember distinctly that he paid you ? Tes ; he gave me £5 for it.
iiT^isqi *439' "He Paic* lt in gold' did ke not ' ^° > in notes-
Sept., 1891. 144,q -\\Tere tney Queengian(i notes ? Oh, I do not know that. I could not remember what notes merely
passing through my hands were — could you ?
1441. And the only other work you did for Inspector Atwill was some polishing? Tes ; he asked me
ODe day to send a man up to his house to polish something.
1442. And he paid you for that ? Tes. The man was half a day at it.
1443. Have you sold any furniture to other members of the police force in Lower George-street ? Tes,
I did, a long time ago.
1444. Can you tell us the names of the other policemen ? Inspector Harrison and also Superintendent
Read, when he got a new wife.
1445. Do you remember what it was you sold to him ? No. It was a book-case, I think, or something
of that kind.
1446. I suppose, when you sell furniture to the police you sell it cheap ? No ; just wholesale.
1447. Mr. Abigail.'} Tou know all about the Chinese in Lower George-street, I suppose ? No ; not
much.
1418. Do you know Pung Nung, who lives at 178-180, Lower George-street ? No ; I know more Euro-
pean people than Chinese.
1449. Do you know Sing Lee ? No.
1450. Do you expect me to believe that you have lived down there for thirty-four year3 and do not
know these people, who are living so near to you ? No ; I do not know them, and I do not care to speak
to them.
1451. But do you know that there is any gambling going on ? I see plenty of people going in and going
out, but I do not know what they do inside.
1452. Well, do you know that there are a number of your countrymen who keep shops down there ? Tes.
1453. Do you know what business they carry on ? No ; I never asked them.
1454. But do you not see as you pass up and down what they do ? No ; some keep fruit-shops, I believe.
1455. But how do most of them make a living ? I do not know ; I cannot tell.
1456. If a number of Europeans kept shops and sold nothing, yet lived comfortably, we should be able to
say how they got their money ; we want you to do the same with regard to your countrymen ; you know
that there are a lot of people paying high rents for shops in Lower George-street ? Tes.
1457. Do you know what business they carry on to enable them to pay these rents ? I never asked them.
1458. But you must know for yourself ; — do you see any Europeans keeping shops ? Tes ; next to me
there is Felton and Nocks.
1459. Tou know what they sell ? Tes.
1460. Then do you not know that in the Chinamen's places pak-ah-pu is carried on ? No ; I do not know
anything about it.
1461. Do you not know that if you refuse to give information to the Commission you can be sent to
prison ? No ; I do not know anything about it.
1462. Well, I may as well tell you that you can ; — now do you know that there are gambling shops carried
on by the Chinese near to where you live ? No, I do not.
1463. Tou have lived there thirty-four years and do not know what is taking place around you ? I know
, that some keep cook-shops.
1464. Come, do you not know that there are a number of Chinese gambling-shops in Lower George-
street ? I know, but I cannot prove it myself.
1465. Do you know Dung Lee's ? I know the place, but I have never been in.
1466. Do you not know that it is a gambling-house ? No.
1467. Do you know Han All Kee ? No, I do not know him. I look after my men working, or perhaps
I go into the town to buy something, but I do not hang about the street.
1468. How many Chinamen kept shops in Lower George-street when you first went there ? I do not
know. I only look after myself.
1469. Have the shops kept by Chinamen not increased very much during the last two or three years ?
They have increased a good deal, but I do not know about the last two or three years.
1470. How many cabinet shops are there, down there ? There is one other beside my own.
1471. And those are the only two ? There are only two, or at most three.
1472. Tou do not know what the business of the other thirty shops is ? No.
1473. Tou do not know that there is gambling carried on in them ? No, I do not ; I have never been in.
1474. Do you see people visiting these places frequently — boys, young men and girls ? I see them in the
street outside.
1475. But do you think not that they visit the shops carried on by Chinese? I never notice them.
1476. And during all the years you have lived down there you have never observed them going
inside ? No ; because I know that a number of persons knock about the street.
1477. Have you ever heard of any of your countrymen losing large sums of money in these gambling
places ? I never heard of any ; it has nothing to do with me.
1478. Have you ever heard of any of your countrymen committing suicide in Sydney ? No.
1479. Tou are not yourself connected with any secret society ? No ; I have enough to do to look after
myself.
1480. Do you know a Chinaman named Sing Lee ? No.
1481. Were you in conversation with him last week in George-street? No ; I do not know him.
1482. Tou never spoke to him last week ? No.
1483. Tou have had no conversation with any Chinamen in reference to the gambling carried on down in
Lower George-street ? No, it has nothing to do with me. I mind my own business, and during the last
thirty-six years have been doing the same.
1484. Mr. McKiilop.] Did any of the Chinamen living down there know that you were coming up here ?
Tes ; some of them asked me where I was going and I said that I was going up town.
1485. When was this ? Testerday morning.
1486. Did not they ask your wife whether you were coming before the Commission ? No.
1487. Had not you some conversation with some of the Chinamen in Lower George-street last night after
leaving
CHINESE OAMBLDTa COMMISSION' — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
41
leaving here ? No ; except with my own workmen, and to them I said that I did not know why I was Ah Toy.
called up to the Town Hall. It seemed to me to be all nonsense. '""* -/— — ~ -
1488. You think it is all nonsense ? Well, it meant a loss of time to me. U Sepfc-' 1881-
1489. Do you like to see gambling and opium smoking going on down there ? No ; I never gamble, and
never smoke opium.
1490. But perhaps you do not mind seeing other people doing it? Oh, they can look after themselves.
1491. Have you never played fan-tan ? Not since I was a little boy.
1492. Have you never played in this country ? Tes ; I played up country on the diggings, and lost £1,
and said I would never play again.
1493. Did you ever take any pak-ah-pu tickets ? No.
1494. Do any of the men who work for you smoke opium ; — you have pipes on the premises, you know ?
One or two of my men smoke.
1495. You permit them to do it? Weil, they have been used to it, and would be sick if I stopped
them.
1496. Do you charge them anything for smoking ? No.
1497. What did Inspector Atwill say to you the night he came to your shop-door? He said, "You
sold me a book-ease long ago, and never gave me a bill for it. You had better do so now, as I want my
children to know what I paid for it."
.1498. Did you not say yesterday that Inspector Atwill told you that there was a lot of noise made about
policemen getting presents, and that he wanted a bill on that account ;— you said that yesterday, did you
not ? No, I did not.
1499. Mr. Hawthorne.] You are quite sure that you did not see Inspector Atwill from the time you left
here yesterday until you came here this morning ? No.
1500. Did you see any one from him ? No. I said to my men, " I have been losing my time " ; — that
was all.
1501. Do you do any trade with private people ? Yes ; I would sell to you or anybody else.
1502. What price do you usually charge for a book-case like the one you supplied to Inspector Atwill?
About £6 10s. ; but as I had the book-case in stock for eighteen months I sold it cheap.
1503. Do not people generally pay you by cheque ? No.
150 k Are you always paid in cash ? ' Private people always pay cash. Shop people always give me a
cheque.
1505. Inspector Atwill paid you in cash ? Yes.
1506. How long is it since you saw Inspector Atwill; — be particular, because you know that many
people have a chance of seeing you when you do not see them ? It was about three weeks ago, I think.
I forget exactly, but I remember him saying, " Good evening."
1507. Was that when he asked you about the book-case ? No.
1508. How long is it since he asked you about the account? About six weeks ago.
1509. Do you never give accounts when you sell furniture to private people ? No, never.
1510. Have you no bill-heads ? Yes.
15 LI. How far is it from your place to Mr. Atwill's house ? I do not know.
15L2. About a quarter of a mile? Very well, you know better than I do.
1513. Have you not some regular man to do your carting ? No. I generally get Tom or Jack. Jack has
been working for me for many years.
1514. Was it Jack who took the book-case ? I do not know, but I think it was.
1515. Has he got a parcel delivery van ? No; I do not think I was at home when the book-case was
delivered.
1516. Mr. McKillop.] What rent do you pay for vour place ? £5 a week to Mr. Merriman. Last year
I paid £7.
1517. Mr. Quong Tart.'] Now, Mr. Ah Toy, I want to ask you an important question : You told Mr. Abigail
a little while ago that you have lived in Lower G-eorge-street for thirty-six years, and yet you do not know
your next door neighbours. So far as I know your character, you are not connected with gambling, but
we want you to say whether or not you know that these are gambling-houses ? I cannot prove it.
1518. We do not want you to prove it ; we want your impression ; — j^ou know whether a Chinaman
keeps a cabinet shop, or is a regular merchant, and if he is neither of these, you must know what he does?
I think some of the places in Lower George-street are gambling-shops.
1519. You can read Chinese ? Yes.
1520. What, besides the name of the firm, is there on the doors of those shops ? Oh ; I never noticed
them.
1521. Does it say, "Day and night fan-tan inside "? Yes, I think so ; but I cannot prove that gambling
is carried on inside.
1522. Upon how many shops have you seen this writing ? I do not know ; about twenty I daresay.
1523. Do you think that all this gambling down there does much good to business — to European business
or your own ? No good certainly. Anybody who gambles is no good.
1524. Can you smell the opium outside the shops ? Yes.
1525. If a person does not smoke he does not like the smell? Of course not.
1526. Do you know of pak-ah-pu being carried on down there ? Yes ; it is the same sort of thing.
1527. Fan-tan and pak-ah-pu are different ? Yes.
1528. Are you in favour of pak-ah-pu ? I think it is not much good.
1529. Do you know any merchants down there who share in the gambling-houses ? I do not know ;
I do not want all that I say taken down by the shorthand-writers.
1530. Mr. Abigail.-] Are you afraid of making direct statements here r I am afraid to let other people
know, because I have not much power against the Chinamen, and they would get a " down " on me.
1531. Then, as a matter of fact, you are rather afraid of making a clear statement, less your countrymen
should do you some injury ? Yes.
1532. If you were assured that they could not do you any injury, and that you were perfectly safe, you
would be able to tell us a great deal more I suppose.? No.
1533. Then why are you so anxious that what you say should not be put down ? I say everything that
is true. I say that gambling is no good, and that smoking opium is no good.
272— F 1534.
42
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Ah Toy. 1534.. Have you ever heard of any of your countrymen being injured by any other of your countrymen
fZ '^Mn ^or making statements that reflected upon them ? Sometimes.
• ssept., isai. 1:i35 Tller al,e vtrv m,t,l)gefui t{len if a mau Spe;i]-S tne trulh, and it happens to be against the in ? Yes.
1546. Have you ever heard of a reward being paid to the friends of anybody who has been injured or
killed by any of your countrymen in that way Y Yes ; I have heard of such things — a long time ago.
1537. AV"ho paid the money— do you know ? T cannot: tell.
153K. Have you heard of more than one case of that kind ? I have heard of two or three cases perhaps-.
1539. Have you ever heard of money being paid to Europeans who have been injured in that way by any
of your countrymen Y J>'o.
1540. The money is kept solely for the Chinese and their friends who are injured ? I do not know that.
1541. And this money comes from the funds of secret societies, does it not r I cannot tell.
Thomas Martin Davis, Esq., M.P., called : —
T. M. Davif, 1542. Mr. McKi.Uop.'] You are a Member of Parliament? Yes.
Ksq., XI. P. 154,3 ^U(j y0U were presen^ at a deputation to Sir Henry Parkes on the 30th July? Yes.
t (Z ^ T^! 1544. In vour remarks you said that your attention had been drawn to the statement that bribes were
II Sept., 1891 • , •• ,. „ _+' J
1 given to the police ? Yes.
1545. Would you kindly inform the Commission what you know of those statements — whether, as far as
you are concerned, they are mere hearsay, whether they are backed by circumstantial evidence, or whether
they are known to you as positive facts? Well, I may state that, as a result of my observation of what
was going on in Lower George- street for many years, I had always some suspicion that the police received
bribes. The fact is that I lived down there for over ten years, in the Sailors' Home, and in continually
walking to and fro in that part of the city I saw the thing carried on so openly that it was only natural to
suppose that the police, who knew that gambling was going on, and who also knew that it was illegal,
must have had some little allowance, or else they would not have winked at it as they did. Before going
with the deputation, to the Premier, however, I spoke to a number of people on the subject, and asked if
they had any reasonable proof that bribes were given by the Chinamen. One of the persons I spoke to.
was Mr. Maguire, the photographer, in Lower George-street. He told me that Inspector At-will had come
to him on one occasion, and had either asked his sister, who helps him in the business, or had been asked by
her (I forget just how the conversation started) whether he was going to get his photos, taken. At all
events, Inspector Atwill made a remark to this effect : " All you shopkeepers ought to supply the police
free for the protection you get." They did not seem to see it in the same light, however, and consequently
Mr. Atwill did not get" a sitting. Mr. Maguire then told me that a Chinaman who lives, I think, next
door, or, at any rate, very close to him, had complained to him that a police sergeant (I think his name
was Jameson — he has since retired) used to blackmail him to the extent of a£20-note. He said'that the
Chinaman had told him that. 1 think the Chinaman's name is Way Kee. Then I was informed by Mr.
]N~ock that a Chinaman came into his shop one day and asked him to make out a receipt for a book-case
supplied to Mr. Atwill, and that he, remembering the appointment of a Commission, thought that it
looked rather suspicious, and consequently sent him upstairs to his accountant on purpose that a third
party might witness the transaction. Mr. Nock's accountant saw ; and, although the goods bad been
delivered some months before, up to then no receipt had been made out. Whether the money had been
paid, however, it will be for the Commission to consider. Well, taking everything into consideration, and
knowing as I do that gambling has been going on and gradually increasing for a number of years, for I
remember the time when there were only two or three gambling-houses in Lower George-street, I could
only come to the conclusion that the police were directly interested in permitting its continuance. I
myself took part in it when I was at sea. At that time there were over a dozen, aye, a score of us, living
in the Sailors' Home drawn into it. One week I believe that I made £5, but afterwards I lost £15 in about
twenty minutes. I have seen the business going ahead since then, have seen the class of people engaged
in it, and have wondered sometimes that I really did put up with the nasty smells, and the mixture of
nationalities crowding over the table simply to put money on for gaming purposes. I have also wondered
how it could all go on with the police walking backwards and forwards a few feet from the door.
1546. You went in and out quite openly, I suppose, just as if you were going into some place of business ?
Oh, there is no secrecy about it at all.
1547. You held the position of Secretary to the Seaman's Union up to a few months ago ? Yes.
1548. Would you inform the Commission of the hardships endured by large numbers of your men who
lost their wages in the gambling dens ? 1 have known a man whom I have had acting as delegate on
board a steamship to collect the monthly contributions beg of me to let bis accounts run on for another
month, as he had lost the whole of his own wages and the Union's funds too. On other occasions I have
known men come to Mr. Haley, one of the principal coal stevedores, and ask him for the love of God to
give them a little money for a bit of meat for Sunday's dinner, and those are men who the day before
must have received £6 10s. in wages, for at times coal-lumpers make good pay. These men seem to have
been brought under the influence of Chinese methods of gambling to a very striking extent. They do not
go to horse-races or put money on " totes," but many of them have a perfect mania for fan-tan ; indeed,
I have beard Mr. Daley say, when he has paid £700 away in wages on a Saturday morning, " I will
guarantee that the Chinese have £500 of it before this time to-morrow morning."
1549. Do you know anything of a police sustentation fund ? During the time I was knocking about
amongst the Chinese gambling-houses, eleven or twelve years ago, I never heard of such a fund ; indeed,
I was too much concerned in my own sustentation. I was recently informed by Mr. Armstrong, the
tobacconist, that the Chinese set aside a little for the purpose of a sustentation fund, but personally I
must say I have seen no proof of it.
.1550. What class of people used to frequent these dens when you were in the habit of going there ? I
have known people in various grades of society go there. I have seen old men, fathers of families*, who
bad a genteel appearance to keep up, slipping in and trying their luck, sometimes- to the tune of haU>a-
sovereign, and I have seen small boys there, hanging on to the shirts of the winners. Of course, when
there is plenty of money knocking about, some men are bound to come off winners, but it is only a
momentary victory, and these boys look out for the winners, and as soon as a man makes a hit of a. haul
ask
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
ask him to enable them to try their luck again, if it is only to the extent of a penny. I have known cases T^ • Map*'
where boys have started with a penny and have come off with a pound or two. /-~^Lt^*~\
1551. Have you noticed the age of these boys ? "Well, no doubt the vicious life they lead stunted them, ^ g^^ggi.
but I should say that some were as young as 14 or 15.
1552. Have you ever noticed any women or girls ? No ; not playing fan-tan.
1553. Do you know ex-Constable Quealy ? I know him by sight and also by reputation. I have seen
one or two memorials that have been got up in the neighbourhood to have him removed for drunkenness.
One memorial was to the Inspector-General, and he is out of the force now.
1554. Did you hear anything about him taking a large amount of money out of the bank ? No, I did
not hear anything about that. The last information I had about him was that he had applied lor a
public-house license, and that it was refused, hut that a subsequent application was granted.
1555. He is getting it in his brother's name now, I think ? Oh ! is that it ?
1556. Have you ever seen any plain clothes constables going in and out of these dens ? Well, that is the
beat of Higgins and Senior-constable Adair. They are plain clothes men, and I have heard that Higgins
is very well to do. How he got his money I do not know ; it -might have been left to him by his
relations, but he got a lot of property a long time ago at a sale.
1557. Have you ever noticed any of those men going in and out of these dens ? No ; I have noticed
them standing close to them.
1558. President.'] What was the value of the property that Higgins bought last ; — what did he pay for it.
I am not sure of the exact value of it, but I was told that it was worth something like £3,000.
1559. Did he pay for it in cash ? That I do not know.
1560. Mr. McKillop.] The property is situated in Cumberland-street, is it not ? Tes. It is wonderful
howr much money some people will hoard up. I have known a sailor in boats on the coast to save
considerably over £2,000.
1561. Do you know Carson or Beadman ? I know Beadman.
1562. Did you ever see him frequent these dens either in an official capacity or otherwise ? No ; I
have not seen him going into the dens. During the last five or six years 1 have not seen much of this
kind of thing, because I have lived in Balmain, and my office has been in Sussex-street.
1563. While yon were in any of these places did you ever see a constable come in and look on at the
game ? As a matter of fact constables might have come in in plain clothes, and I should not have
noticed them.
1564. I suppose the gambling-rooms are pretty well packed ? Oh, yes ; to overflowing. The excitement
is intense. There is more excitement, I believe, when there is a lot of money on the board, and the
croupier is picking out the counters, than there is over the Melbourne Cup.
1565. What are the sanitary conditions ? Abominable.
1566. Are any of these places in cellars ? The one I U3ed to go to was one of the most respectable, ancL
it was none too high.
1567. What was the name of that particular shop ? It was a coral shop.
1568. Mr. Quonq Tart.] Was it Kum Tiy's ? Tes, that is the name.
1569. Mr. McKillop.] You said that the police were not content in getting a gold watch in three months ?
I did not say " a gold watch," I said " a watch."
1570. " But must have diamond rings on their fingers ; — it was a well-known fact that they were paid to
keep their eyes shut" ; — what did you mean by that ? I have seen policemen with rings on their finger,
and at one time they were not backward in showing them.
1571. But they have disappeared now ? Tes.
1572. Mr. Abigail.] How long ago is it since you saw a ring on any of their fingers? About eighteen
months ago I saw one on Beadman's finger. Indeed, I was having . a drink with him in Montgomery's
Hotel. The point that I wanted to bring out about the diamond rings was this : I do not for a moment
mean to say that Chinamen have been in the habit of giving bribes direct in the shape of diamond rings, but I
mean to say that with money that the police have obtained as bribes, they have bought diamond rings. It
is a common saying that if a policeman has not got a watch in three months he is no good to the force —
he is not worth having. That is a very common saying in Great Britain as well as here. So I said to the
Premier, " They are not content with a watch in three months, but must have diamond rings as well."
1573. Mr. Hav;thorne.] At all events, you mean that they receive bribes from Chinamen? And that the
police in Lower George-street are much better off than elsewhere.
1574. Mr. McKillop.] Tou said that the Chinamen, on the night of the raid, were rushing about for'
crowbars ? I was not there on the night of the raid, and simply stated that from hearsay.
1575. Have you ever seen any weapons in gambling dens ? Oh, yes ; a common thing is to have lime, so
that if there is a fight they throw it in the eyes of their assailants and blind them.
1576. Have you heard of respectable females being insulted in passing to and fro in Lower George-street ?
Mrs. Kelly told me that she was insulted in coming down Lower George-street upon one occasion. Of
course it is well known by everyone in the city, I suppose, that Lower George-street is spoken of as
" China Town." There is such a nasty smell down there, too, that no respectable people ever attempt to
pass lower down the street than Bridge-street ; and people wanting to go to the Manly Beach boats
invariably turn down Bridge or Hunter Street, and proceed along Pitt-street to the Circular Quay.
1577. I suppose you are acquainted with a good many business people whose places are situated between
Bridge-street and the Argyle Cut ? I know pretty many.
1578. Have they told you that for the past twelve months their business has been failing off considerably ?
I have been told that the business is falling off considerably down there, and that it has been doing so
gradually. Inr'oed, Mr. Christensen, who has a fish and oyster saloon, and who is a very old-established
tradesman, told me that the night the raid was made so many people were turned out of the gambling-
houses on to the streets that his receipts were increased by £5. He knew nothing of the raid, and was
quite surprised to find so many persons coming in who had, at one time, been in the habit of visiting his
establishment for a plate of oysters or a bit of fisL
1579. Then it is psrrectly clear tint the falling off in the business of legitimate tradesmen is entirely due
to the presence of the gambling-dens ? There is not the slightest doubt about that. They could not
help suffering, because they depended entirely upon the wage-earning classes.
1580. Mr. Hawthorne.] Tou said at the deputation that North George-street was looked upon by the
police
41 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
T. M. Davis, police as one of the best beats for making money. On what authority did you make that statement ? I
^^a^T* know a policeman— it was Boadman— who was shifted from Balmain to Lower George-street, and in con-
n^flh~isqi versation with me one day he said that he would rather get back to Lower George-street.
p ' 1581. Did he give you any reason for it? No; it was hardly likely that he would tell me he was
receiving a lot of money from the Cbinamen.
1582. Is there any possibility of finding out the names of the shopkeepers to whom the police went on
the night of the raid for crowbars ? I think Mr. Nock told me that the police went into some of the
Chinamen's houses.
1583. I suppose that many of the statements made by you and other members of the deputation were
made on the authority of members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Well, they made a lot of
statements that were new to me. I did not know that the raid was going to be made until I sa,w it in
the papers on the following morning, and it was then that I was told that the police had been into the
Chinese shops for crowbars.
1584. President.] Am I to understand that all that information came from members of the Anti-Chinese
Gambling League — the information comprised in your speech to the Premier, I mean ? No, not all.
I knew to a certain extent from my own knowledge of the police and neighbourhood that members of the
force were receiving bribes. Mr. Maguire told me about Dawson.
1585. Is Dawson in the force now ? No, but he is in the city, I think.
1586. Then you said something about the pawn shops doing a good thing in lending money to persons
who have lost their all in gambling ? I can speak positively upon that point. I had my own watch in
pawn for three months at the time I lost my £15, and scores of others have had a like experience.
1587. And the same thing prevails to-day ? Yes, to a great extent.
1588. As late secretary to the Seamen's Union, you knew that ? Tes. I can send you out of our body
150 men, I suppose, who could give you a long story of their losses at fan-taa. There are two brothers
called Nolan, who work as hard as any other two seamen on the coast, but they work for the Chinese,
and for the Chinese alone. They have hardly got a second shirt to their backs, or a decent-suit of clothes to
put on.
1589. Mr. McKillop.] Are they in ships now? Yes, running up and down the coast.
1590. It would be possible, through the present secretary of the Seamen's Union, to find them, I suppose ?
Oh, I can tell you of any number of similar cases.
1591. President] That is not hearsay. It is the result of your personal experience as secretary to the
Seamen's Union ? Yes.
1592. The members spend a large amount of their money in these shops ? Yes.
1593. Notwithstanding that your society framed a rule to keep them out of gaming-houses, and occasioned
great destitution to their wives and families ? Yes, I know of that from my own knowledge, and I hare
known even a president of the Seamen's Union to take tickets in the game of pak-ah-pu. That was long
after the resolution was looked upon as a dead lelter.
1594. Mr. Abigail.] Did the Society proceed against any of the men for this offence against its rules ?
"We had four members up and fined them 10s., but we discovered that we should have to pay men 12s.
a day to act as spies, so that the rule became inoperative.
1595. President.] In that way, I suppose, you would have exhausted your funds ? "Well, the fact of the
matter was that we began to look upon gambling as one of those evils that cannot be got rid of. We
have come to look upon it stoically.
1596. Mr. Hawthorne.] Ts it not a fact that you have had some harrowing scenes between the men and
their wives as a result of their gambling propensities? Oh, yes ; I have had some harrowing scenes of
the kind. I have known instances in which the wives have waited on the wharfs in order to get hold of
their husbands' money the moment they received it, well knowing that if they did not it would all be left
with the Chinamen. Some of them are regular slaves to fan-tan. I have known a man make a trip to
San Francisco in the " Zealandia," receive £23 or £24 in wages, and in a few hours have nothing left.
1597. What would be the best way, to your mind, of coping with this evil? I have made inquiries, and
if I can possibly get a Bill introduced — that is, if it is not against the Constitution Act — I should do so,
making the landlord participator in the gambling for the purpose of criminal prosecution, because I am
perfectly sure that the landlord must know what his premises are being used for. By the rent that a man
charges you may be sure that he knows if his place is being used as a hotel, and the same applies to the
ownership of these Chinese gambling-dens. No landlord could walk through Lower George-street, and
seeing the 2d. or 3d. worth of merchandise that is exposed in the windows, imagine for a moment that he
could extort £3 10s. or £4 a week in rent out of the business done. Mr. Christensen was offered £200
by a Chinaman to vacate his own shop, and hand it over to him, to be used as a Chinese gambling-house.
1598. Mr. McKillop.] It would be a good stand for that purpose, would it not? Yes, it would.
Mr. Christensen told me that premiums like that were being paid by Chinamen to the landlords down
there in order to get shops at all, and as the shopkeepers have to compete against them in rent it is with
the greatest difficulty that they can manage to keep their business going on. Then too, the trade of the
neighbourhood is greatly decreasing.
1599. So you think that on the whole the best remedy would be to make the landlords as well as the
tenants legally responsible for any gambling that might be carried on ? Yes, if the police had previously
given him proper reasons for suspecting that his premises were being used for gambling purposes. At
the present time under the Licensing Act the police merely put down " suspected of constant Sunday
selling," although they may never have caught them at it, and at the last sitting of the Licensing Bench
licenses were taken away on the ground of suspicion alone. If a similar rule was applied to the owners
of gambling-dens who received a big share in the profits of fan-tan (because if you compare the rents paid
by the Chinese gambling-house keepers in Lower George-street, with rents paid by persons for similar
shops in equally good localities in other parts of the city, you will find that they are most excessive), I
think you would be more likely to effect a reform than in any other way.
1600. President^ Have you made this matter a study ? Yes, 1 have, and I find that the Chinese are
paying far higher rents for their- places in Lower George-street than are being paid by legitimate
business men elsewhere. And to those rents you have to add the premiums paid to the landlords in
order to induce them to grant leases to Chinamen.
1601. Mr. Abigail.] You heard of course all the statements made by the various members of the deputa-
tion to the Colonial Secretary ? Yes. 1602.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 45
1602. I suppose you read this report in the Daily Telegraph, headed, "Gold Watches and Diamond- T. M. Davia,
ringed Constables" ? Yes. Es1> M-p-
1603. Do you know of your own knowledge one single case which you can point to where a man in the '^ t~T^i
force has received any present of any kind? No ; it was never intended that anyone should think so. x bepu' °
We give the police credit for knowing a little better how to act than to allow a third party to come in
and see them receiving bribes.
1604. It was stated that the police were paid advances by some of the places so that the gamblers
should not be convicted ? That statement was made by Mr. Armstrong.
1605. Tou do not believe that the existing laws are sufficient to suppress the evil? I do not think so,
because they are not carried out as strictly as it was intended that they should be. These offences are
winked at. We have heard the opinion of the Attorney-General with regard to totalisators. It is one
and the same thing. The police have at present power to go into any house in which they suspect that a
number of persons are gambling, but they do not. They make raids', and that only at wide intervals of
time.
1606. At all events, then, from your own personal observation, you believe that the police have, for some
reason or other, neglected to enforce the law ? Yes, for some reason or other, because if they had enforced
the law they would have made more raids. As a matter of fact, there was an interval of two years between
the last raid and the previous one.
1607. And gambling going on to the same extent, if not worse ? Yes; and that raid only made after our
deputation to the Premier — after enough pressure had been brought to bear.
16uS. Have you any information about the moral aspect of these places? Well, we know that with
gambling there is always prostitution and drinking.
1609. Have you seen any women about these places? Not in the shops, but they live at the back, and I
have seen young English girls along with the proprietors of the gambling-houses.
1610. Do you know whether the Chinese keep private houses in Cambridge-street, in Little Harrington-
street, and on the Rocks for these girls to live in ? It is a very easy matter to go to people who will give
you lists of dozens of girls kept by Chinamen.
1611. You have no doubt about the immoral effect of the presence of those gaming houses? None in
the least.
1612. How about the sanitary conditions of these places ; — are they clean and nice ; do you get pleasant
smells in them ? Just tbe opposite. The smells are foul. I always avoid Lower George-street myself.
When in my capacity as Secretary to the Seamen's Union T had to go round to a ship, I always took the
same route that the general public do, viz., down Bridge-street and along Pitt-street to the Circular
Quay.
1613. You do not like the smell of opium ? No, and I do not like the smell of filthy dens.
1614. Have you ever beard of young girls being decoyed there for immoral purposes ? Yes, I have heard
of such things, and I have seen girls hanging about — some of them round the Suez Canal, where the very
lowest dregs of society in Sydney are to be found.
1615. Mr. Quong Tart.'] Can you name the total number of houses kept by Chinese where gambling is
carried on ? I cannot name them from my own knowledge, for the simple reason that I have not been
in that business for ten or twelve years, and. when I was 1 visited a couple of houses only.
1616. About how many gambling-houses should you think are there? Well, before the deputation to
the Colonial Secretary, or indeed before the Anti-Chinese Gambling League itself was formed, I always
put the number down at from twenty to twenty-five, but no w I am told there are thirty-three from Bridge-
street to the Circular Quay.
1617. Do you know any respectable Chinese merchants who are connected with gambling-houses ? No ;
I believe such men as On Chong, Tin War, and On Yik Lee, to be thoroughly respectable people.
161S. How many Chinese reside in Lower George-street? I cannot say, but there are a great many
persons living in every house leased or rented by Chinamen ; as a matter of fact I do not think there are
as many Chinamen living in Lower George-street as there were prior to the Act for the restriction of
Chinese. I remember what a large number of Chinamen used to lodge down there when they arrived by
the Chinese steamers, and also how many returning to China from the country districts used to await the
despatch of the boats there.
1619. Have you known any members of the police force guarding any house whilst gambling was proceeding
inside? Oh, yes ; I have known policemen standing outside whilst gambling was going on inside.
1620. Can you give us the names of any of them ? I am speaking of twelve years ago, and the personnel
of the force has been changed in the meantime ; but I have brushed clothes with policemen coming out
of Sun Sam Kee's then.
1621. Between what hours was the gambling carried on? All day long, from the first thing in the
morning. If they only get one person inside they will play. They will call him in if they see him standing
outside, and say, " Yes, fan is on." I have been in a gambling-house in the middle of the day when there
were only a couple of us present, and I have noticed that when they get you in alone, or with only one
other person, they invariably win ; in fact I was playing alone when 1 lost my £15.
1622. Did you ever hear that one of the biggest Chinese firms upon one occasion sent £60,000 to China ?
I heard that statement, but do not know anything about it, and do not see how anybody could know
anything about it unless the Chinamen had personally boasted of tbe matter.
1623. You said something about the gambling-house keepers getting girls over to their places ; — do you
know the names of them ? No ; I do not.
1624. Have you been down there since the Commission was appointed ? No ; I have not.
1625. Have you heard of any complaints since the Commission was appointed? The Europeans down
there have said that there was a little change for the better, but that of course is policy. They are
purposely keeping quiet, in order not to arouse public indignation too strongly.
1626. President.'] Have you made it a matter of study about those Lower George-street rentals ? Yes.
1627. Then I would like you to state what comparisons you have made between the rents paid by Europeans
and those paid by Chinamen in Lower George-street north of Druitt-street ? Well, the comparison
amounts to ibis : that a place for which a European would consider he was paying enough if he gave
£2 10s. or £3 a week rental, would bring perhaps £4 or £4 10s. in the hands of a Chinaman.
AVhilst on this point, too, I may tell you that Mr. Maguire, who will be a very important witness, told
me
46 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
T- M- ^a^s> me that his landlord said that he was offered £4 a week in half-a-dozen places, as the Chinamen wanted
Esq., M.P. tQ get hold of tHg ]l0uge
llSept^l891 1G-S- So tnat practically you think the difference between the amounts paid by Chinese and European
p "' 'is about £1 a week on a £3 house ? Yes, with the probable addition of a bonus.
1G29. Do you know any instances in which " higher " rent has been paid by a Chinese tenant, and a bonus
given as well ? I did hear of one.
1630. But I want you state any facts within your own knowledge ? I cannot speak of any having come
within my own knowledge.
1631. "Well, where do you get your information from ? Mr. Maguire will be able to put you on various
cases.
1632. What localities in other parts of the city do you consider as corresponding with Lower George-
street ? A corresponding locality, to my mind, would, be a locality with about equal traffic.
1633. I want you to name a locality comparable to that particular part of Lower George-street? I should
imagine that somewhere about G-oulburn-street would correspond with it.
1634. Tes ; but I mean a locality not inhabited by Chinese ? It would be a very difficult thing to do ;
there aTe so many points one has to take into consideration.
1635. I know it is ; bat I fancied that as you had given the matter some thought you might be able to
give us a comparison ? I was thinking that one of the principal streets in Newtown would be
comparable.
1636. You ought to be very careful there, because there are sections of the Newtown Road that are very
valuable, and sections that are not ; I think, perhaps, you had better say that you cannot think of a
corresponding locality ? Exactly. I do not know that there is a corresponding locality.
1637. Then, as a matter of fact, you have not thought out the particular question ? No ; I admit that I
have not.
1638. If you had answered the question, I should have asked you what rents were paid in the corresponding
locality. Lid Mr. Christensen refuse to accept the £200 offered to him to vacate his premises ? Yes.
1639. CaD you tell me who made the offer ? He did not give me the person's name.
1640. Can you tell me what rent he pays ? Either £4 or £5 — I think £4 a week.
1641. About how many feet of ground does it stand upon? There are two windows — not very large ones.
1642. But you cannot carry in your mind the probable frontage ? I should imagine that it must be about
14 feet or 15 feet.
1643. That is rather a narrow frontage for two windows ? Yes, but they are small windows. There may
be about 16 feet of frontage.
1644. Has he seats on each side of the shop ? Yes, and a pathway up the centre.
1645. How many storeys are there ? Two storeys. He lives upstairs.
1646. Can you tell me really what rent he pays, or are you speaking from hearsay ? He told me himself,
but I admit that I have forgotten the exact figures.
1647. The rent that he paid was not one of the factors that enabled you to come to a conclusion when
you made a comparison on the rental question ? No.
1648. Do you know any of the owners of these properties ? No, I do not know them ; but I have heard
of their names. Mr. Josephson is one.
1649. How many shops conducted by gamblers does he own ? I do not know.
1650. Then we have heard of the Hon. Tfm. Alex. Long in connection with the ownership of these
places; — can you tell me how many places he owns? No, I cannot. Then Mr. Beale and also Mr.
Himmeloch own others.
1651. Which Mr. Josephson is it ? Isaac.
1652. "Would you consider that Mr. Himmeloch is a man holding a high position, and one whom the police
have any cause to fear ? No ; I do not know that I should.
1653. It has been said that the police were afraid to do their duty, because these shops are owned by
persons of high position in the country ? Yes.
1654. Did you hear that statement ? Yes.
1655. But you did not make it yourself ? I do not think I did.
1656. Do you know any of the other landlords ? No, I do not.
1657. "We have four of them ; — who is Mr. Christensen's landlord ? I do not know.
1658. The number of gaming-houses is about thirty-three ? I have been informed, on what I believe to
be good authority, that that is about the number. Previously, I had thought that there were about
twenty-five.
1659. If you think there are only thirty -three gambling-shops in Lower George-street, do you not think
that idea of yours for checking the thing involves rather a drastic scheme of legislation ? Well, thirty-
three gaming houses are not like thirty-three other houses.
16G0. Do you not think yourself, that to bring in a Bill such as you spoke of would be rather a drastic
course to adopt, because it is a Bill that would have a general effect all over the Colony ? It would
certainly have a general effect.
1661 . Perhaps that is a matter that you would like to think over ? I have looked at it in this way
16C2. Well, you have thought over the matter and come to this conclusion ? Yes ; I have considered
that as a landlord has property he has certain obligations, and such a measure as I propose would make
landlords take a little more interest in their tenants than I am sorry to say they do now. We have
numbers of landlords who do not reside at all in Sydney, who live in England and who do not care how
the money comes so long as they get their annual incomes.
1663. I want you to restrict your remarks to landlords who are interested in gambling-houses ? I am
talking in a general way.
lCG-t. But pardon me, I want you to confine yourself to this question : Seeing that there are only
thirty-three gaming-houses in Lower George-street, and that gaming is illegal, do you not think that the
present law is sufficient if the police only put it in operation ? I do think that the present law, if it was
put into force ;md kept in force, would be sufficient.
1665. If the law was put into force could not we suppress the whole of these houses ? Oh ! if there was
a thorough determination on the part of the police to get rid of Chinese gambling it could be done.
1666. And the fact that they have not done so is your reason for believing that bribery exists P Yes;
I
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 47
1 know that if forty or fifty Europeans were in business carrying on a trade of that kind and didn't give T- M- Davie,
the police something they would very soon be shut up. "We give the police credit for being abler men Es<i-» M,:p*
than to walk up and down a street without knowing what is going on inside the shops. iis^t~1891
1667. Tou have taken a great deal of interest in connection with Chinese gambling ? Yes, in connection ep ''
with my office of Secretary to the Seamen's Union I have often spoken on the subject. I did so many
years ago, and then wondered why the police were so apathetic.
1668. And the peculiarities of the societies you have been connected with is this — that its members resort
to these Chinese dens rather than to totalisators or any other form of gambling. You also say that the
•coal lumpers go in for it pretty strong ? Yes ; if a man has a few glasses in him he is sure to be
drawn in.
1669. Do you know anything about Goulburn-street ? No ; all the men of our society use Lower- George-
street, and the evil has been forced upon my attention by the large number of cases of distress that have
arisen out of it.
1670. Mr. Maguire is your authority for slating that Way Kee told him about giving £20 to Constable;
Dawson? Yes.
1671. Mr. Quong Tart.'] I suppose you would also like to see opium-smoking put down ? Yes, I should,
and if I could be of any assistance I would.
1672. And the two are generally found together ? Yes.
MONDAY, 14 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
The Mayor (Me. ALDERMAN MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Peesident.
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Ah Wah called and examined : —
1673. President.] How long have you been in Sydney? Ten years. Ah "Wat.
1674. Where do you live ? Down Lower George-street. r — — "- — s
1675. Have you lived in Lower George-street all the time you have been in Sydney? Yes, sir. 14 Sept., 1891.
1676. What business do you follow ? A Chinese merchant's.
1677. In whose employ are you ? My grandfather's.
1678. What is his name ? Way Kee.
1679. What, business does Way Kee carry on ? Selling Chinese goods.
1680. He is a Chinese merchant ? Yes.
1681. Have you ever seen any gambling going on in his premises ? No.
1682. There are no fan-tan tables there ? No.
1683. Does Mr. Way Kee do a large business ? Pretty fair.
1684. Do you keep his books ? Yes.
1685. Can you tell me how much money Way Kee sent home to China this year? Yes — this year ?
1686. Yes ; in round figures, how much has he sent to Hong Kong, or anywhere else in China ? About
£7,000 or £8,000.
1687. How did he send it ; — in gold ? Yes, in boxes.
1688. He sent that amount home this year ? Yes.
1689. To whom did he send that ? To Quong Fung, a Chinese merchant.
1690. What did he send it for ? To buy goods.
1691. Did he send any money to any one else ? Yes ; to Che Wo another Chinese merchant in Hong
Kong.
1692. How much did he send to him ? He sent to him about half the amount I have mentioned.
1693. Then the whole of the money you have stated was divided between the two merchants? Yes.
1694. Has he remitted any money by bank draft ? Not much.
1695. You always ship the money in gold ? Yes.
1696. Did Way Kee send any money to any one else in China ? No.
1697. Did he remit any to London ? No.
1698. Does he remit to any other place except the place you mention ? No, only to Hong Kong.
1699. Does Way Kee bring his countrymen out here ? No.
1700. Five years ago did he ? No.
1701. Has he any of his countrymen in his employment outside the store in Lower George- street ? He
has a few — some in the country.
1702. He carries on the business of a storekeeper? Yes.
1703. And nothing else? No.
1704. Has he any market-gardeners employed ? He has none now. He had about three or four years
ago — at North Shore.
1705. How many country stores is your grandfather interested in ? Four.
1706. Where are they ? There is one at Bourke, one at Bega, one at Stanthorpe, and one at Hillston.
1707. Has he any branch stores in Sydney ? No.
1708. Is he not interested in any in Goulburn-street? No.
1709. Does he sell any goods to the storekeepers in Goulburn-street ? Yes.
1710. Are, they much indebted to him ? Not very much— very little.
1711. What does he sell to them ? All Chinese goods.
1712. How many people live in your premises in George-street? Seven.
1713. Only seven ? Yes.
1714. How many rooms are there in the house ? Six rooms.
1715. What rent does Way Kee pay for the house ? £3 10s. a week.
1716. Who is the landlord ? Mr. Cornwell is the ground landlord.
1717.
■*S CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Ah Wab. 1717. Has Way Kee got a long lease of that house ? It is a fifteen years' ground lease.
C^^^i 1718. How many years to run ? About nine years now. He took it about six years ago.
USept.,1891. 1719_ who payg t-he taxes ? Way Kee
1720. Do you keep all Way Kee's books ? There are two other clerks beside myself.
1721. But you know all about the books I suppose ? I would know all of the accounts in connection
with the English business. The other clerk attends to the Chinese business.
1722. Tou know all about the English business, that is to say, all the business done in Sydney, and all
the sources whence money comes in Sydney ? Yes.
1723. Way Kee is treasurer, or keeps the money, for some Chinese society, does he not? There is some
money put there sometimes by the gardeners.
1724. He gets money from the market-gardeners ? Tes ; or those who have connection with the
gardeners — those who hawk the stuff about — to take care of for them.
1725. Does h^ ever get any other money besides the money he gets from the market-gardeners ? No.
1726. Do you think Way Kee himself would get any money that you do not know of? No. It would
all be put down in the book, whatever came in.
1727. You say you have beeu here ten years ? Yes.
1728. Do you belong to any Chinese society yourself — any charitable or benefit society ? I am in the
Koon Fee Tong.
1729. How much do you pay to join it ? £1.
1730. How long is that for ? Eor all time.
1731. What is the object of that society ? To take up dead men's bones.
1732. Who keeps the money of that society ? My grandfather, Way Kee.
1733. How much money has Way Kee got belonging to the Koon Yee Tong? I would have to see the
books before I could tell you that — to see how it is distributed over the books.
1734. Is that money in Way Kee's banking account, or is it in a separate bank ? It is locked up in the
safe. The Koon Yee Tons? has nearly £2,000 to its credit in the bank.
1735. Is that society similar to the Loon Yee Tong ? I only know about the Koon Yee Tong. I
know nothing about the other.
1736. Who keeps the money for the Loon Yee Tong ? That I do not know. I only have an interest
in the Koon Yee Tong.
1737. What other Chinese societies are there in Sydney ? That is all I know.
1738. You know nothing about the Loon Yee Tong ? No.
1739. Do you know that the Loon Yee Tong gets a commission from the Chinese gambling-houses ? I
do not know it myself. I have heard people say so.
1740. Do you not know that the Loon Yee Tong will pay the fines of Chinamen who may be prosecuted
for gambling ? I do not know it myself. I sometimes see in the paper that a Chinaman has been fined,
but I do not know where the money comes from to pay the fine.
1741. Do you know Inspector At will ? -No ; I do not know him.
1742. Do you mean to tell me you have been in lower George-street for ten years, and do not know
Inspector Atwill ? All the same, I do not know him.
1743. Would you know him if you saw him passing in the street ? I only know that there are inspectors
down there, but I would not know him by name.
1744. Do you know Constable Dawson ? Yes.
1745. Does Constable Dawson go into Way Kee's very often ? He used to, about three or four years ago.
1746. Has he been there lately ? No.
1747. Where is Dawson now ? I do not know. I have not seen him lately.
1748. Was he a great friend of Way Kee's ? Not a very great friend.
1749. Did Constable Dawson ever buy any goods from Way Kee ? No.
1750. Did Way Kee ever pay Constable Dawson any money at any time ? He paid him rent. He rented
a garden from Constable Dawson about — that was five years ago. The lease was up some time ago.
1751. Where was that ? At Lane Cove.
1752. How many acres were there ? I do not know.
1753. How much rent did he pay V About £3 a week.
1754. How long is it since Way Kee took that garden ? About five or six years, I think.
1755. Way Kee had to cultivate and fence it in, had he not ? Yes.
1756. How much had Way Kee to spend on the land before it grew anything? I do not know.
1757. Would your books tell you that ? Yes, if I saw the books I would be able to tell.
1758. You say he paid £3 a week rent for the garden ? Yes ; about that.
1759. Do you know how many acres there were ? No ; I must see the books to tell you that.
1760. Have you never been to the garden ? No.
1761. Do you know Constable Beadman, at all ? No.
1762. Do you know Constable Quealy ? No.
1763. Are you quite sure ? Yes. 1 know one constable, named Hughey Adair.
1764. Quealy was the constable who was sent away for being drunk — he is not a constable now. Are
you sure you do not know him ? Yes ; I do not know him.
1765. Do you know Constable Carson ? No.
1766. Then you do not knowany of the police at all ; — is that your general answer ? I only know Hughey
and Mr. Higgins.
1767. Is Hughey Constable Adair ? Yes.
176S. Does Constable Adair go into Way Kee's place much ;— do you see him often there ? Yes.
1769. That is every day or every second day, I suppose ? Yes ; perhaps he might come in a couple of
days in the week.
1770. What business has he there ? He comes in to see if the boys have been there to sell old lead.
1771. Did Way Kee ever buy anything from Constable Adair ? No.
1772. Did he ever give Constable Adair any money ? No.
1773. Did he ever give him any tea or sugar, or presents of any kind ? No.
1774. You say you know Sergeant Higgins ? Yes.
1775. Does he go into Way Kee's place much ? Yes.
1776. What does he go there for ? Just the same as Constable Adair. 1777.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES 03? EYIDENCE. 49
1777. Did Sergeant Higgins ever buy anything from "Way Kee ? No. Ah Wah-
1Z78" 5^ you ever 8UPPly nim wita any groceries ? No. We did not sell much groceries there. , ,C^""~^,
1779. What does Way Kee sell mostly ? Nearly all China goods. 14 Sept., 1891.
1780. Does Way Kee ever send anything to the police at Christmas time ? No, not at Christmas time.
178 L. At Easter? No. •
1782. Are you quite sure ? Tes, quite sure.
1783. Did he ever give them anything at any time ? No.
1784. Not at the Chinese new year ? They might at new year's time come in for a drink.
1785. That is when you invite people in ? Tes.
1786. Have you ever heard any conversation between Sergeant Higgins and Way Kee about the gambling
in Lower G-eorge-street ? No ; but he has come in to tell me about it, and I have said I know nothing
about it.
1787. What was the good of his telling you— you had nothing to do with it ? Well, Way Kee does not
understand.
1788. You represent Way Kee ? Tes.
1789. What conversation did you have with Sergeant Higgins when he came in ? He came to me and
said, " I believe they will not allow you to gamble now, is that the case ? "
1790. When was this ? About two or three weeks ago.
1791. Did he not tell you that you wereiiot to tell the Commission about the presents he had got ? No.
1792. Did any policeman come in and tell Way Kee that he must not say anything ? No.
1793. Tou are quite sure of that? Tes.
1794. Tou say that you do not know Inspector Atwill ? Tes ; I do not know him.
1795. Will you swear that ? Tes.
1796. Tou know that there is an inspector there, but you do not know him ? No.
1797. Did any inspector of police come in and see Way Kee during the last month ? No.
1798. _Did_ any constable come in to see Way Kee during the last month ? There was a constable who
came in with Sergeant Higgins to inquire about the nature of the business, the number of employees, and
the number of rooms. Those were the only policemen I have seen.
1799. Did you not tell me just now that Higgins had been in to see you by himself? These two police-
men came together — Higgins and Adair.
1800. Did you not tell me just know that no police had been to see you during the last month ? I said
that no inspector had come during the last month.
1801. Do you know an inspector from an ordinary policeman? Tes ; I know, because the clothing is not
the same.
1802. Tet you are quite sure that you do not know Inspector Atwill ? Tes.
1803. What Inspector of Police do you know? I do not know any.
1804. Will Way Kee's books show how much money he has received for this society you have mentioned ?
Tes ; the books will show how much has been received, and how much paid out, and also how much is
deposited in the bank.
1805. Will the books show how much money has been paid over, and to whom it has been paid ? Tes ;
that is, the money of the Koon Yee Tong. Way Kee is not connected with the Loon Tee Tong ; that was
put with another man who has since gone insolvent.
1806. Where is that firm now — are they in Sydney ? They are away, I believe.
1807. Where is the Loon Tee Tong money now ? I do not know.
1808. Are you quite sure that Way Kee is not connected with the Loon Tee Tong as treasurer ? Tes.
1809. When did this man you have mentioned go insolvent ? About two years ago.
1810. When was it that Way Kee was treasurer of the Loon Tee Tong — he was treasurer at one time I
understand ? No, he never was.
1811. Was he not an officer of the society, president, or something of that kind ? No.
1812. Was he not a member of it ? No, never.
1813. Did you not say that the Chinese gambling-houses paid money to Way Kee for the Loon Tee
Tong? No.
1814. Do you not know that they do ? No.
1815. Did you not tell me five minutes ago that there was money paid in by these gaming-houses ?
Excuse me, I never said so.
1816. Of this money that is subscribed to send dead bones home to China, is none of that paid away to
meet Police Court fines when Chinamen are prosecuted ? No.
1817. Tou know constable Dawson ? Tes.
1818. Does he come to Way Kee's place much ? No, not much now.
1819. Now, I want you to answer this question. Tou know how much money Way Kee pays away in
Sydney — English money ? Tes.
1820. What did Way Kee pay constable Dawson £20 for ? How long was it ago ?
1821. I think the first £20 was three years ago ? I do not know, I must see the books.
1822. What did he pay the last £20 for ? I could not say without I saw the books.
1823. Then you do remember that he did pay him some money ? It might be for rent.
1824. Rent for what ? For the garden.
1825. Had he a lease of that garden ? Tes, there was a lease, I think.
1826. Was that the garden at Lane Cove ? Tes.
1827. That is the garden you have told me about before — what was the lease of that garden? Eive or
six years I think.
1828. And has it expired ? Tes, a long time.
1829. Do you do much business with the Chinese in Goulburn-street — sell much opium ? Not very much ;
we sell them Chinese fancy goods, rice, and so on.
1830. Tou sell to the Chinese who are living privately ? Tes.
1831. Do you know how many gambling-houses there are in Lower George-street ? To my knowledge
fourteen or fifteen.
1832. Is Way Kee a partner in any of those houses ? No, he would not have anything to do with them.
1833. Does Way Kee lend money to any of the Chinese down in Lower George-street ? Sometimes when
they want money they come to him. 1834.
272— G
50 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Ah Wat. 1834. Do you lend money to some stores in Lower George-street ? Yes, sometimes.
'T^""^ 1835. What stores ? We Sang Loong.
HSept.,1891. 1836 Does he do any gambiing ? No-
1837. Are there any others you lend money to ? Yes, On Yik Lee.
1838. What business does he carry on? Chinese goods.
1839. Does he gamble ? No, sir.
1840. Do you know Doong Lee ? Yes.
1841. Way Kee lends him money, does he not? No.
1842. Does Way Kee see much of him ? He does not go there very much.
1843. What business does he carry on ? A gambling-house.
1844. Do you know Ham Kee ? Yes.
1845. Does Way Kee know him very well? Way is his landlord.
1846. I understand Way Kee is a leaseholder— not the owner of the property ? No, he has a lease.
1847. What rent does Ham Kee pay ? £3 10s.
1848. And Doong Lee ? £4.
1849. Do they pay nothing more ? No.
1850. Do you mean to tell me that they pay nothing more than that rental ; — you must be very careful
about this ; I want to know whether Doong Lee and Ham Kee do not pay more rent than that in any
other way ; — do they not pay a bonus sometimes ? No.
1851. Does Way Kee know' that they carry on gambling there ? He knows that gambling is carried on._
1852. Will the books show Way Kee's transactions with these people ? They pay ready cash. There is
one cookshop underneath Doong Lee's ; they run an account.
1853. Do they owe Way Kee much ? About £50 or £60.
J854. Do you know a man named Pan Num ? I know the name.
1855. Do you do any business with him? No, sir.
1856. Do you know Ah Toy? Yes.
1857. Do you do any business with him ? No ; we never do any business with him.
1858. He is a cabinet-maker ? Yes.
1859. Do you know Tiy Wor Tong, Tong Tiy, Goon Sing, and Sing Lee ? Yes.
1860. Do they do any business with Way Kee ? No.
1861. They carry on a gambling and lottery business ? Yes.
1862. Do they carry on much opium smoking there ? A good bit, I suppose.
1863. Do you smoke opium yourself? No.
1864. What is your age ? Twenty-two.
1865. Do you know any places where the Chinese keep women — European girls ? Yes ; there are one or
two I know.
1866. Do you keep any yourself ? No ; a Chinese lady.
1867. Are you married ? Yes.
1868. Where does your wife live ? Upstairs, in Way Kee's house.
1869. Does Way Kee buy much jewellery — watches and chains, and diamond rings ? Not diamond rings.
Sometimes he has silver watches and silver chains.
1870. Any gold watches ? No, not gold watches much.
1871. What price are the silver watches ? Different prices — from £3 10s. to £5.
1872. You have charge of that department, I suppose ? Yes.
1873. And have you not got any diamond rings there? No.
1874. Any rings at all ? No.
1875. What did Way Kee give Sergeant Higgins that silver watch for ? He never gave him any watch.
1876. Was it Constable Adair ? No.
1877. What constable was it then ? He never gave a watch to a constable at all.
1878. Mr. AbigaiT\. From whom does Way Kee lease these three shops — 164, 166, and 168 ? EromMr.
Western.
1879. Where does he live ? Outside the city somewhere.
1880. What rent does Way Kee pay for the three shops ? £14 a month for the three. That is ground
rent. Way got the land on a lease at £14 a month, and built those three places on it.
1881. Have you seen a notice up on white paper, that gambling is carried on in these places? Yes.
1882. At how many of the places is that notice up ? There is one stuck up at every place.
1883. Have you noticed people going into those places pretty frequently? Yes.
1884. Europeans ? Yes, I have seen Europeans going in to buy the lottery tickets, and also Chinese
going in and out.
1885. Is fan-tan played there ? I do not know.
1886. Have you ever visited these places to play ? No.
1887. Have you ever heard of your countrymen losing large sums of money in these places? I have
heard of both winning and losing.
1888. Have you ever heard of any Chinamen committing suicide as theresult of his losses ? I have never
heard of it.
1889. I suppose anybody would know that gambling was going on in these places by walking1 up and
down the streets, and seeing them from the outside ? I would know myself, but I- dornot know whether
others would.
J 890. Do you know anything as the extent of the gambling carried on there — the amount of money
spent in it ? I do not.
1891. Have you seen the policemen walking up and down outside these places while the gambling has
been going on inside ? I have seen different polieemen, at all times, up. and down the street there.
1892. While the people were gambling inside ? Yes.
1893. How many real business places kept by Chinese who do not eaTry on gambling are there in/Lower
George-street ? A bout ten.
1894. Do you know that the total number of Chinese places down there is about thirty, or over? I think
there are about twenty-five to twenty-six altogether.
1895. And that more than half of them obtain their living, whatever it may fee, from gambling ? J cannot
say exactly. .1896.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETTDENCE.
51
1896. Are more than half of them living respectably ? I would not doubt their respectability. An. Wah.
1897. Well, so far as their appearance is concerned ? Oh yes, as regards their outward appearance, their ,S7*^~^2U
clothes, and gold watches and chains, they look alright; but I would not know anything about their 1*8eP*i»i *
pockets.
1898. Do you know whether any of these Chinamen keep women in their premises, at the back? I have
heard such is the case, but I cannot tell you which are the houses that have the women.
1899. Would- you, as a Chinaman, desire to see gambling and opium smoking done away with ? I would
rather see them work and be honest.
1900. You are opposed yourself to Chinese gambling and opium smoking ? So far as I am concerned, if
there was any agitation to put it down, in my own mind, I would like to see it done ; but I have to ask
my grandfather before giving an opinion.
1901. You do not hold yourself as a free agent to express an opinion upon it at the present time ? No ;
I have to ask my grandfather. I am not tree.
1902. But, as regards your own feelings in the matter, you are opposed to it ? Yes ; I would promise
positively that if I were free myself I would help to put it down.
1903. Have you to consult your grandfather on matters of that kind before expressing an opinion during
your grandfather's life ? Yes ; 1 have to consult him on every particular matter. If the old man was
not here I would do it at once.
1904. Do you believe gambling and opium smoking demoralises your countrymen and other people who
indulge in them ? That is true. Those Chinese who cannot make money honestly, and go home to China,
are no good.
1905. Mr. Quong Tart.'] You say there are about ten respectable Chinese merchants down Lower G-eorge-
street? Yes.
1906. I suppose they would be favourable to the removal of these gambling shops ? Yes.
1907. As regards any action on your part in that direction, I suppose you would first have to consult your
grandfather ? Yes.
1908. He has the power ? Yes.
1909. Do you ever see any bad women or girls going into these gambling-houses ? Yes ; some of them.
1910. Do you know whether the Chinese entice them there and corrupt them, or are they bad before they
go there ? I would not know that.
1911. Are they mostly women, or merely girls ? Young women of 14 or 15, or 22 and 23 years of age.
1912. Do you know whether opium smoking is carried on in these gambling-shops ? Yes.
1913. Do you remember a row that occurred in regard to gambling in Lower George-street some years
ago ? Yes.
1914. They nearly killed a man there ? Yes.
1915. What was the cause of it? It was about gambling, I suppose.
1916. The man informed on the gamblers, and the latter bailed him up? Yes; it was On Chuck, an
informer.
1917. And he was struck with an iron bar ? Yes.
1918. Do you know whether the Loon Yee Tong was in existence at the time ? Yes ; it was in
existence about four years ago.
1919. I suppose the respectable Chinese merchants would be glad to have a meeting themselves to put
down this gambling ? I would not know their minds.
1920. People complain about the bad smells that come from some of the places down Lower Greorge-
street ; can you tell us the worst of these places ? It is amongst the gambling places.
1921. President.'] Have you ever attended any meetings of any of the societies established by the Chinese
in Sydney ? Any meetings for good purposes, my grandfather would be there ; I would not. But any
meetings in connection with gambling, neither of us would attend.
1922. Have you ever attended any yourself ? No.
1923. Do you know of any society connected with gambling that is regularly attended ? The only
society that I know, and that would have nothing to do with gambling is the Koon Yee Tong.
1924. Are not some of the principal Chinese residents interested, as treasurer, or in some other capacity,,
in these societies ? I only know of the Koon Yee Tong. The Loon Yee Tong, I think, is broken up.
or dissolved.
1925. For what reason was it dissolved ? Perhaps because it had no funds.
1926. For no other reason ? Not that I know.
1927. Have you never heard of persons being elected at meetings of Chinese merchants as officers of
one or other of these societies ? I only know of officers in connection with the Koon Yee Tong.
1928. Has your grandfather, as treasurer of the society, ever paid out of the funds, the fines of any
Chinamen who have been prosecuted by the police ? It is this way : there might be some friend of $
gaming house who would get into trouble, and my grandfather might have some funds in hand of theifslj
and he would let them come and pay it themselves. My grandfather is no friend of gambling.
1929. Where would your grandfather get that money — would it be his own money ? No ; the gaming-
house people's friends would leave money with him to keep for them, and if they got into trouble they
would come to him, and he would pay out their money, and let them pay l,he fine themselves.
1930. Does your grandfather charge them anything for keeping the money ? No.
1931. How many friends come to deposit money with him in that way ? Sometimes more, and sometimes
less — I cannot say.
1932. Are those friends not members of the Society, Loon Yee Tong ? All my knowledge is confined
to the Koon Yee Tong, others do not belong to that.
1933. Does your grandfather pay no interest for the money he holds ? No.
1934. Was your grandfather elected by any society to hold this money ? It would be this way : On
account of seeing that my grandfather was in such a large way of business, and was trusted, these men
would take their money to him to keep for them.
1935. He would be elected by a number of other men to hold the money ? No ; each one would come
individually by himself, and leave the money there.
1936. Are any of the proprietors of these gaming-houses among those who deposit with your grandfather ?
No ; those who deposit with him are principally in the gardening or hawking line,
1937.
52 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
A.h Wall. 1937, ][£r McKillop.] Do you know anything about the Chinese in Goulburn-street ? Tes.
ii^^ifioi 1938. Do you know of any gambling-dens down there ? No gambling— only a few stores.
i-i-Scpfc.,1801. 1939 Do you know of J.our own personal knowledge that no gambling is carried on there ? No ; but I
do not think so.
1940. Have you ever seen little boys and girls going to these gambling-dens in Lower George-street ?
No ; I have seen young girls going in and out of these places.
1941. Girls of tender age ? Some of tender age, and some old, going in to get something to eat ; these
places have sometimes cook-shops connected with them.
1942. Did your grandfather pay any fines for the Chinese in connection with the last raid that was made
by the police ? No.
1943. Do you remember the raid made by the police previous to the last one ? Yes ; it was Hoong Lee
that was caught on that occasion.
1944. How long ago was it ? Between two and three years. That is next to our place.
1945. Can you remember the number of times your grandfather has paid the fines of Chinamen — just an
idea ? I cannot remember him paying the fines, but know he bailed them out on several occasions. _
1946. Stood responsible for them'? Tes. If my grandfather did not go and bail them out, being a
leading man, it would not look well.
1947. Do you remember the night the Eoyal Commissioners went down to inspect some of those places in
Lower George-street ? I heard of it.
1948. Is it not a fact that a constable went to "Way Kee, and told him, or some other Chinamen, that the
raid was to be made ? No ; it would be no use to tell him. "What would they tell him for ?
1949. Have you heard that other Chinamen were told ? Some of the gamblers came over to grandfather's
shop, and said they had been informed by some of the police that the Commissioners were going round
that night.
1950. Have you any idea who the policemen were ? No.
1951. Do you know the names of the Chinamen who said this ? Cheang Tee.
1952. Any more ? Sin Tow. Those two told.
1953. Do they reside in Lower George-street ? Tes.
1954. "What did they say to you ? They said, " Some high gentlemen will be round to-night inspecting."
1955. "Was that the night we went down there ? It was on Saturday afternoon, I was told.
1956. Did you have a talk with your grandfather this morning before you came away ? No.
1957. Not as to what you were to say ? No. He only showed me the letter, requesting him to attend
the Town Hall. And he said to me, " Go and attend the meeting at the Town Hall, and answer whatever
way you think is right and just ; say just what you know."
1958. Do you ever play fan-tan in these places ? No.
1959. Have you ever been in to have a look ? No. I might go into the cook-shop to have something to
eat.
1960. Do these men who keep the gambling-houses ever go into your shop as friends ? No.
1961. Not into the private part of the house to have a talk ? No.
1962. Tou have nothing to do with them at all ? No.
1963. Are they the lowest class of Chinamen who keep these gambling-houses — of the larrikin character ?
Tes.
1964. If you met them in George-street would you walk with them ? No.
1965. Tou never go out with those Chinamen who keep the gambling-houses ? No.
1966. Tou look upon them as a low class of men ? Tes.
1907. I suppose the keepers of the gambling-houses have the low class of women, do they not ? Tes.
1968. Have many of your countrymen got wives of their own nationality out here ? There are only about
fourteen or fifteen Chinese women out here.
1969. Are they all living with their husbands ? Tes.
1970. What age were you when you got married ? Twenty-one.
1971. Have you only just come back from China ? I came back last year.
1972. Tou went home to China and got married there ? Tes.
1973. And brought your wife back with you ? Tes.
1974. How long were you away ? About five months.
1975. What did you go home for specially ? To get married.
1976. Did you take any gold home with you ? No.
1977. No money ? No.
1978. No bank draft ? No.
1979. Are you a member of the firm — a partner of Way Kee ? No ; I have a little interest.
1980. Tou are a partner ? My grandfather has given me a little interest.
1981. So you are really a partner ? Tes.
[The witness withdrew.]
Way Kee called and examined through the Interpreter : —
Way Kce. 1982. President.'] Where do you reside ? In Lower George-street.
/--^*-*--n 1983. How long have you been living in Lower George-street ? For over twenty years.
14Sopfc.,1891. 1984. Who was your landlord? I forget ; my grandson would know.
1985. What lease have you of your premises ? I have it on a fifteen years' lease.
1986. Was it a building lease? It was this way : The old stores which stood on the ground were pulled
down, and I rented the land for fifteen years, and built the new premises myself.
1987. How much ground rent do you pay ? £14 a month.
1988. What does the ground measure — the frontage ? 61 feet 5 inches.
1989. How many shops are built on it ? Three.
1990. Tou occupy one ? Tes.
1991. What rent do you get for each of the others per week ? £3 10s. per week.
1992. How much money did you spend on the building ? Over £2,000, and with everything complete it
would be over £3,000.
1993. The shop you live in is about the same size as those you let, is it not ? Tes; each of them has the
same frontage. 1994.
CHINESE GAMBLING- COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 53
1994. Considering the improvements you have made on the property, have you considered what you are "Way Kee.
to get out of the investment ? I only know this, that they cost so much, and that they let at a certain / ->^^>
rental. 14 Sept., 1891.
1995. These premises are let to people who carry on gambling-houses— you admit that f Cook-shops
and gambling-houses.
1996. Do you know that gambling is contrary to the law ? "When they came to me first they wanted
them for fruit-shops, cook-shops, and lodging houses.
1997. I do not want to incriminate you, I want to know if you understand that gambling-houses are a
violation of the law ? 1 did not know when I let them ; I did not know what they were to be used for.
1998. Answer the question. Do you not know that gambling-houses are illegal ? Tes.
1999. Do you know that gambling is carried on continually in Lower George-street, in other places as
well? 1 know that those places down there with the doors open are gambling-houses.
2000. In your opinion, do the police know it also ? 1 do not know that.
2001. Would not anyone know it — anyone living there, and walking past these places every day? Tes ;
anybody would know it. I have been there many years, but have never been inside one of these places.
2002. Do you do any business with your tenants ? The cook-shop patronises me.
2003. Do you do business with any other of the gambling-houses down there ? No ; only the cook-shop.
No other gambling-house buys from me.
2004. Do you rent any market-gardens ? No ; not now.
2005. Did you ever rent a market-garden from a policeman ? Tes ; some time ago I did.
2006. What is the policeman's name ? Dawson.
2007. Where is the garden? I have never been on it myself.
2008. Do you know how many acres it contains ? No.
2009. Do you know where the garden is ? I have never been there. I do not know where it is.
2010. Is it in Europe, Asia, Africa, or America. Do you really mean to say you cannot tell in what
direction it is ? It is in the North Shore direction.
2011. What rent do you pay ? £30 a year.
2012. How much did it cost you before the garden became productive ? I do not know anything about
it myself. All I know is that I paid £30 a year, and that when the railway was made it went through the
land, and they gave me back about £40.
2013. How many men did you have working in the garden ? Four.
2014. Do you usually buy market-gardens without having seen them ? No ; but I never looked at that.
2015. Why did you lease that market-garden from Constable Dawson without having seen it ? Some of
the men in my employ would go and look at it.
2016. Did you ever lease a market garden before ? No ; only that one.
2017. Did Dawson press him to take it ? It was this way • The other partners in the concern wanted my
name to be in the lease, and the lease was accordingly made out in my name.
2018. Answer straight out. Did Constable Dawson come to you about that garden ? Tes.
2019. What did he say to you ? He came to me, and said, " It is settled now, and I want to make out
the lease."
2020. Why did Dawson require him to be a party to the lease when he had no interest in it ? The way I
got my share was that I provided provisions to the other three.
2021. Did not Constable Dawson come to you first about the lease ? Tes ; he did come and see me first.
2022. Was this rental of £30 a year all the rental Dawson got, or was there any other rental ? It was
£30 a year altogether.
2023. The lease is up now ? Tes ; a long time ago.
2024. Have you any transactions with Dawson now ? No.
2025. Do you know Mr. Maguire, a photographer? No.
2026. He lives near you ; you must know him ? I do not know him. I have been to have my photo-
graph taken, but I do not know the man's name.
2027. Did you not tell Maguire, the photographer, that you owed Dawson some money? No, I never
spoke to the man at all.
2028. Did you not tell Maguire, the photographer, that you gave constable £20 as a present ? No.
2029. Was it Sergeant Higgins you gave the £20 to ? No.
2030. Well, tell me the name of the constable you gave £20 to ? I never presented £20 to any
policeman.
2031. Did you present a watch and chain — a gold or silver watch, to any policeman ? No, why should I.
Why should I give to people I do not know, or have no interest in ?
2032. Have you ever heard of the proprietors of the Chinese gambling-houses paying policemen money
for winking or conniving at the evil? I never heard of it.
2033. When was the last meeting of Chinese held in your store ? I do not know ; it has nothing to do
with me.
2034. Was a meeting never held there at all ? No, never.
2035. Do you mean to say that a meeting was never held in your place ; will you swear that a meeting
of Chinese, or Chinese Society was not held in your store ? Never.
2036. It has been sworn that a meeting was held in your store ? Oh, yes, the Koon Tee Tong have
met there, about taking up dead men's bones.
2037. Do you keep the books of that society ? No ; at present they are at Quong Hing Chong's.
2038. Will those books show the sources from which the income is derived? Tes. Everything that
comes in and is paid out is in the same book.
2039. Is all the money paid away stated too ? Tes.
2040. And the purposes for which the money is paid ? Tes.
2041. Will the books show any money paid to any policeman ? That would not be in it— not in that
society. ,
2042. Do vou know of any other society that derives its income from the Chinese, and pays any money
over to the police for any purpose ? I do not know of any such society.
[The further examination of the witness was postponed till next sitting day .J
WEDNESDAY,
54 - CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
WEDNESDAY, 16 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
The Mayor op Sydney (Me. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
PRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vicf.-Peesident.
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QTJONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
y$&j Kee. Way Kee further examined : —
' "-" — N 2043. President.'] How long ago is it since you were treasurer of the Koon Tee Tong ? About the year
16 Sept., 1891. beforelagt
2044. Tou were treasurer of that society the year before last ? Yes.
2045. But I want to know how many years you were treasurer before that ? A number of years with
Sun War Loong — for thirty-two years. All the books have been handed to Quong Hing Chong.
2046. How many books were there ? I do not know how many, but the whole of them were supposed
to be handed over.
2047. Were there only two, or were there a considerable number ? I cannot tell you how many there
were. I cannot tell how many books there were.
2048. I think you are telling an untruth, and you must answer the question straightforwardly or you
will be sent to gaol ? I cannot tell exactly.
2049. I want to know the probable number, whether there were a dozen or a half-dozen, or how many
approximately ; and I will keep you here all day if necessary, until you tell me. Answer the question ?
I cannot, but Quong Hing Chong could.
2050. How many do you think ? About three or four books. When I was done with them I handed
them over ; I think there were three or four.
2051. When did you last see Quong Hing Chong ? I see him every day ; I saw him yesterday.
2052. What conversation did you have with him yesterday ? He has not said anything to me this last
two or three days about anything.
2053. Did you see Moy Hing yesterday or the day before ? He came to my place yesterday.
2054. What did he want ? He told me the Commission at the Town Hall had sent for the books.
2055. Did he object to give them up ? He said he did not know himself, and would have to consult with
somebody else. I told him he would have to let them go.
2056. If there was nothing in the books against the society, what was the objection to allowing us to see
them ? There would be nothing in it, only for the last thirty-two years it would show how many dead
bodies have been taken up, and they are very particular about that.
2057. Why are they particular ? In this way, the whole of my community are interested in it, and they
would like to know the why and the wherefore of anything done in connection with it.
2058. It is well known that the society is formed for the purpose of sending the bones of these people
home ? Yes.
2059. Bot what objection have you to my knowing all about those operations ? I will tell you all about
it, exactly as it appears in the book, if you ask me.
2060. Did you advise Moy Hing not to deliver the books ? No.
2061. Take this book in your hand [referring to a Chinese account ooolc] ; — I want you to tell me what
that book is for ? It is a book to show all expenses paid in connection with raising dead bodies to send
home to China.
2062. Does it show the whole of the expenses ? Yes, everything.
2063. What is the first debit entry in that book ? The first is dated 10th March, 1889.
2064. Now, I want you to tell me what that debit is for ? It is 4s. 6d. for a ledger.
2065. What is the next item? Thirty small books for collecting, 5s. lOd.
2066. Where is that ledger ? It ought to be at Moy Hing's.
2067. Whom were those thirty books given to ? They would be handed round to the different stores to
collect money with.
2068. In Sydney ? Yes, all in Sydney.
2069. Is it not a fact that they collect money for this purpose in the country ? Yes.
2070. At Stanthorpe do they collect any ? No, not at Stanthorpe.
2071. At Bourke is any collected ? Yes.
2072. At Narrandera ? No.
2073. Do you not get money from Chinese in the interior ? Yes ; it is all sent down to Sydney.
2074. What is the next item ? 11 yards, of white calico ; that is used for giving receipts on.
2075. What size is the receipt you give ? About the size of the book.
2076. That is about 3 in. x 4 in. ? Yes.
2077. How many subscribers are there in the society ? About 600.
2078. They are scattered all over the country ? Yes.
2079. What is the fifth item in the cash-book ? It is 2 lb. of melon seed.
2080. What is the sixth item ? A sum of £2 paid out for stamping papers to put inscriptions on, with the
names of the departed.
2081. Is it not a fact that these stamped papers were for gambling purposes ? No, certainly not, nothing
to do with gambling, only in connection with raising dead bodies.
2082. What is the next item ? It is 15s. for cigars.
2083. What do they want cigars for ? When they come together they talk and smoke.
2084. What is the next item, the ninth ? 7s. for postage.
2085. What is the tenth item ? 4s. for red calico.
2086. What is the last item in that book ? The second day of the first month of the present year, that is
the 2nd January.
2087. Have any payments been made since the 2nd January ? No, not a penny more.
2088. Since the 2nd January of this year the society has not disbursed a penny of its money to any one ?
No.
2089. How does he know that, seeing that he is not now the treasurer of the society ? He knows, because
his- clerks write down in this book all the payments. 2090.
CHINESE ' GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 55
2090. If that belongs to the treasurer, how comes it in bis possession ? All money that is paid out is paid Way Wee.
out by him, although the book is kept at Moy Hing's. ' ' V"*n
2091. "What money have you now belonging to tbat society ? Over £1,000. It is kept as a separate 16 Sept.;I891.
account in the bank.
2092. In what bank? In "the' Commercial.
2093. In whose name is the account kept ? It is in the names of four stores.
2094. Who are tbey? "Way Kee, Quong Hing Chong, Yuen Tab., Chun Goon Ping.
2095. Are these stores interested in any way with the gambling-houses ? No, these are genuine stores.
2096. Do you know of any society in Sydney called the Loon Tee Tong? Tes, I remember it some
years ago.
2097. Now, I want you to tell me the objects of that society ? I would not knowmyself what it isfor.
But Tong Fong could tell you all about it.
2098. Where is he to be found ? They have gone insolvent.
2099. I do not want to know anything about their financial status. I want to know where the man
lives, or where he can be found ? There is one of the firm living on the Eocks in Lower George-street.
2100. Now, I want you to tell me the objects of the society ? It is not a good object.
2101. But what is the object ? To assist with the funds those who are in need. That is all I know.
2102. That is not a bad object — to assist those in need. I want to get definitely from you what the
■objects of this society are, and you must answer the question ? I wish to explain. I remember the time
when the society was in existence — as to the objects I am not so sure or clear about. But I know there
was a sum of £420 to its credit, and a dispute arose among the members about something. One wanted
to do one thing, and another wanted another, and eventually the money was sent back to China.
2103. Do you not know that the Loon Tee Tong is affiliated to certain gambling-houses in Sydney?
Tes ; I know that they take 3d. or something off to go to a fund.
2104. What is the money used for ? One object I know for certain is that they use it to put coffins on.
board ships passing to and from China.
2105. Is that the only object ? No. They also subscribe small sums to the hospitals.
2106. Do you consider that a bad object ? No ; that is a good object.
2107. Then why did you say just now that the objects, some of them, were bad ? The reason I said
it was bad was that there were more rows over the money, and they were afraid it would be put 'to bad
purposes ; that is the reason.
2108. Do you know if they ever paid any sums of money to the police ? I do not know it.
2109. Have you not heard that money is paid to the police by that society ? I never heard it. I do not
take any interest in it.
2110. Do you not know that this society's money is practically a defence fund ? I do not know it at all.
2111. Have you not heard that the society pays the fines of Chinese that are prosecuted? No, I never
heard of it.
2112. Did not the society meet in your house in George-street once ? About seven or eight years ago
they did.
2113. Now then, I want you to tell me straight what are the objects of this society and why the society
does not meet with your approval? So far as I am concerned I do not mix up actively in these
things. The only objects I really know in connection with the Loon Tee Tong is the putting of coffins
on board vessels going to and fro in case a Chinaman dies.
2114. What was the meeting held at your store about seven or eight years ago ? It was the Koon Tee
Tong.
2115. Tou said the Loon Tee Tong had met there ? That was a mistake, it was the Koon Tee Tong.
2116. Have you heard of a meeting of the Loon Tee Tong being held recently ? No.
2117. Do you remember the occasion of the raid being made on Moy Ping's shops ? I did not know of it.
2118. Do you mean to say you do not know that there was a raid made at Moy Ping's ? I have heard
ofit.
2119. Was there a meeting of any Chinese society held after that? I do not know. I have nothing to
do with that now.
2120. Did you pay the fine of any of the Chinese who were proceeded against on that occasion ? No.
2121. Tou did not assist any of your countrymen on that occasion ? No.
2122. Were you asked to assist them in connection with any society ? No. With gambling, in any
shape or form, I have nothing whatever to do.
2123. How much money have you remitted to China during the last year? I would have to see my book
before I could tellyou.
2124. Did you remit £5,000 last year ? It would be more than that.
2125. Did you remit £10,000 ? About £10,000.
2126. Was that money all remitted on your own account? Tes. That is the great part of it ; but he
sent home in the same box some money from Chinamen here who wished to send to their parents or friends
in China.
2127. Do you remit any money home for the gambling-houses? No, not for one gambler; only: for
hardworking men.
2128. Do you know of any of your countrymen remitting large sums of money home ? No.
2129. Have you heard of large sums being remitted to China as the profits of these gaming-houses ? No.
2130. Do you know Inspector Atwill? No.
2131. Do you know any policemen at all ? I do not know them. I very seldom go out. I am in the
store all day.
2132. Do you not see the police passing your door ? Tes, I see them passing backwards and forwards
sometimes.
2133. But you do mot know any :of them? No. I cannot speak English.
2134. Have you heard of any of your countrymen paying money to the police ? No.
21&5. That:they make presents: to the police of jewellery, forinstance? No.
2136. Is it true that you made a present, or some of your wetEk--people m&Ama present of a watch, to .one
of the policemen down there ? No, not in any way at all.
2137. At Christmas-time is it not your custom tomake -presents to some rfyoiiT-frksmbr? No. Imay
giveawaya Ettle grnger-rometmies-; -small- things. 2138.
56 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
WayKce. 2138. Is it true that you made presents of ginger, or small things, as you say, to any member of the
/'""•~*^"""n police force ? No.
16 Sept., 1891. 2139. Have you friends among the police ? No ; I do not know one.
2140. Who were the people that you made these small presents to that you spoke of ? I would give a
little ginger away to different people ; but the men in the shop would know my friends. Personally, I
would not know who received the things. The people in the Custom-house and people on the wharfs I
would give to.
2141. When does the lease of your shops expire ? The lease has ten years to run from this month.
2142. I mean the lease you have given to the two proprietors of the gambling-houses ? They had no
lease — they are weekly tenants.
2143. I want you to tell me now what rent Doong Lee, No. 164, pays ? He pays £3 10s.
2144. And the other one — what is the rent of that? That is £3 10s. a week also. [Witness hands in
receipts for rent.]
2145. Those receipts are for ground rent ; do you not get any bonus from these places besides the rent ?
No.
2146. Do you not consider that rent very cheap ? That was the price of the houses when I built them,
and the same tenants have been there ever since.
2147. Do you intend to increase the rent ? Not at present — perhaps later on.
2148. Do you know the amount of rent paid by any other of your countrymen thereabouts ? Which
ones do you wish me to point out ?
2149. Any about there of the same size as your own? Well, some pay a little over £2, some £3, and
some £4.
2150. Do you know of your countrymen paying the landlord twice £3 10s. a week for the same accommo-
dation as your place ? Yes ; on the other side the tenants of a lot of places belonging to Europeans pay
£6 to £7 a week, I have heard.
2151. Do you consider that rent excessive? Tes, I do think it is too much.
2152. Is it true that these houses which pay such heavy rentals are gambling-shops ? I would not know
about that ; but I think if they pay such heavy rentals they must be gambling-houses.
2153. Do you know any case where a Chinese has paid a large bonus to the landlord when getting a lease
of premises ? No ; I have never heard of it.
2154. Tou yourself have never received a bonus ? No.
2155. Is it a fact that these gambling-houses are run by companies of Chinamen ? Tes — syndicates.
2156. How many would be in a company ? I could not tell you how many. I know a good many go in.
2157. Do you know Wong Lee Hing ? I know him well.
2158. Where is he now ? In China.
2159. He is a very rich man, is he not ? He has been a very longtime in business, but I would not know
whether he is wealthy or not.
2160. How did he make his money ? He was a partner in the business of Sun Kum Tiy's.
2161. Is it not a fact that he made some of his money at gambling ? I do not know anything about it.
2162. Do you not know that Sun Kum Tiy's firm is at present interested in gambling institutions ? No.
2163. Do you think so ? No. I know nothing in connection with gambling. Anything in that way I
know nothing about.
2164. Where do you get your groceries from ? I get them in the city ; for drapery I deal with M' Arthur
and Co., and I deal at Christopher Newton's and Hoffnung's, and W. Gardiner and Co.
2165. Do you sell any watches ? No.
2166. Do you know Sergeant Dawson ? Tes ; I know him well.
2167. What did you give him £20 for ? I never gave him £20 at all at any time.
2168. Do you know Sergeant Higgins ? No. I know Dawson through being his tenant at North Shore.
2169. Do you do business with people in George-street? Tes ; with the stores.
2170. Do you not sell Chinese goods to the proprietors of Chinese gambling-houses there ? No ; I have
nothing whatever to do with gamblers. If they bring ready cash I will supply them, that is all.
2171. Have you any Englishmen in your employment ? No.
2172. Who does your cartage ? James Eodgers does all my cartage.
2173. Where is he to be found ? He is always in George-street — has a lot of carts waiting there.
2174. "What is the exact address of Tong Pong? Somewhere on The Rocks; I do not know exactly
where.
2175. Do you know the name of the street ? No ; I only know George-street ; I never go out at all.
2176. Do you know that gambling is carried on to a very large extent in Lower George-street ? Tes ;
very much.
2177. Are you of opinion that the habit of gambling is bad for your countrymen? Tes ; very bad.
2178. How can it be bad when they make money out of the Europeans ? No matter in what form
gambling is bad, whether they win from Englishmen, or anyone else.
2179. Do you know if the proprietors of these gambling-houses make large sums of money ? I have
heard of it being equal on both sides — that is, heavy losses and heavy gains.
2180. Do you know any who made heavy gains ? No ; I would not know who the man was. I have
heard a name mentioned, but have forgotten it.
2181. Mr. Abie/ail.'] Do you know whether the Loon Tee Tong is in existence now, or has been dissolved?
It has been dissolved, from the time I mentioned when they had a row about the money.
2182. Who had charge of the funds at that time ? The money was at Tong Eong's prior to their insol-
vency.
2183. What is this firm of Tong Eong's ? Way Shong was one of the partners of Tong Eong's.
2184. Any others in the firm ? There was another one, but he has gone out of the city altogether.
2185. What do you know of these two men— Tong Fong and Way Shong ? They are men not of good
character, and after trading for some time unsuccessfully they went into crooked ways.*
2186. Are both these partners connected with gambling? Tes. Afterwards when they had no business,
I heard that Way Shong went in for gambling.
2187. Do you know Chow Kum ? Tes. 2188.
Note.— The interpreter explains that the expression, " crooked ways " means insolvency and general bad credit.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
57
2188. What class of man is he — -what is he engaged in ? He is a carpenter. "ay ^ee-
2189. Has he been connected with gambling ? That I would not know. Rq"*"f~is<ii
2190. Did you receive an invitation to attend a meeting of a Chinese society at the Eoyal Standard 16Sep'
Theatre last year ? Tes ; I was asked to go, but did not.
2191. Were you told the objects of the meeting, and of what class the Chinamen would be attending it ?
No ; I did not know.
2192. Have you not been repeatedly asked to attend meetings of that kind ? I have been asked, but
have never gone.
2193. When you were asked to attend these meetings were you not informed of the objects ? I have
known that there was a meeting of some kind, but would not know what the meeting was for, unless I
attended.
2194. Do you understand if you do not tell the truth here, you will be sent to gaol? I understand.
2195. Did you not send one of your partners to attend one of these meetings at the Standard ? No.
2196. Have you got a partner or man in your employment named Mok King ? Tes ; he is in the
business with me, at Lower George-street, but so far as I know Mok King never went to the meeting.
2197. Tou did not ask him to go ? No.
2198. Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that this meeting was called by gambling Chinamen ? No.
2199. Were you not told that the meeting was called in consequence of a row at a fan-tan gambling-
den in Campbell-street ? No ; I did not know it.
2200. Did you ever hear of a Chinaman being sentenced to three months imprisonment in a case
arising out of that row in Campbell-street ? JMo ; I know nothing about it. I know nothing about
anything connected with gambling.
2201. How long have you been in Lower G-eorge-street ? Ever since I have been in business, both in
the old and new premises.
2202. Twenty years ago how many Chinese were there keeping shops in Lower George-street ? About
seven.
2203. Were they all carrying on legitimate business ? Tes.
2204. How many are there now ? About eleven — legitimate shops.
2205. I want to know how many there are altogether ? I only know how many legitimate stores. I
would not know how many others.
2206. Do you not know there are thirty Chinese shops altogether ? No ; I do not know it. I never
go into those places.
2207. How do the principal number of the Chinese live down there ? By cook-shops and gambling-houses.
2208. Then eleven of them would be legitimate shops, and the other cook-shops or gambling-houses? Tes.
2209. Do you see numbers of people, both Europeans and Chinese, frequenting these gambling-houses ?
I never stand outside the door ; I always sit inside my shop.
2210. Have you read the white paper notices in front of these places stating, " Gambling carried on here
night and day?" Tes ; they are put up plain, so that any one can see them.
2211. There is no secret made of it? No ; it is openly carried on.
2212. Have you ever seen any women attending these places? No. I wish to explain to you that I
always sit inside myself, and see very little of what is going on.
2213. Is your wife Chinese ? Tes ; she came over this year. She came with my grandson's wife.
2214. Do you think opium-smoking and gambling demoralise not only your own countrymen but
Europeans as well ? Tes ; it is very bad for every one concerned.
2215. And you would like to see some steps taken to abolish both these evils? I am afraid to express my
opinion. That is' a matter for the Government to settle.
2216. What are you afraid of ? I am afraid to say one way or the other.
2217. Are you afraid of your own countrymen injuring you it' you express your opinion? Tes; there
are too many poor people here of my nation.
2218. What age are you ? I am 67 years of age.
2219. Is it the custom of your people to visit with vengeance any one who speaks against them when they
are breaking the law ? Tes ; their numbers are too great.
2220. What class of Chinamen are those we have in this Colony ; are they of the lower class of Chinese,
as a rule? They are nearly all farmers and labourers. There are some few good,
2221. There are grades or classses of people in China the same as everywhere else ; — to what class do the
majority of the Chinese here belong to— to the lower, middle, or higher class? What I would call the
lower class in China are the labourers and farmers. If, when they come here they acquire bad habits, I
would call them the lower class here then.
2222. Have you heard of any of your countrymen having visited with vengeance any one who has given
evidence against them on any occasion ? Tes, I have heard of it.
2223. If you were in China, and a case arose in which you would be called upon to give evidence, would
you be afraid to give evidence there as you are here ? Tes ; I would also be afraid in China.
2224. Tou say you are afraid of the many Chinamen that are here ; does the number affect the matter as
to whether they would injure you or not if you spoke of the facts ? Tes ; it is this way : The greater
number of them here are poor people, who have no money at all, and who would be very glad of an
opportunity of killing him if he gave evidence against them.
2225. Would you like to see a change in the law to send the worst of your people away to their own
country? Oh, yes ; that would be good.
2226. Whom do you do your chief business with— Europeans or Chinese ? About equal.
2227. Have you got hawkers in your employ — men who go out hawking ? No ; I do business with branch
stores in the country.
2228. Mr. Quong Tart.-] This book is only up to 1889. When was the last book, after this one, made up
to ? That is the last book. But there are other books before this, they are at Moy Hing's.
2229. In this book there is an item paid into the Commercial Bank, at 5 per cent, in 1890 ? Tes, that is
right.
2230. In the names of WayKee, Tuen Tah, Quong Hing Ching, and Choy Eook Turn? , Tes.
2231. These four persons all signed ? Tes.
2232. I see here in March 10th, an item of £529 19s. 2s., being the total expense of raising eighty-four
dead-bodies? Tes. 2233-
272— H
"® CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Way K-ce. 0033 ig this the last book ? Yes. This is the last book that I know of ; everything paid out would be
1 pi.,1891. 2234.. I know you are against opium smoking and gambling ; but I want you to state to the Commission
what, in your opinion, would be the best steps to take for suppressing these evils in the interests of the
Chinese and Europeans ? I would not like to express an opinion one way or the other with reference to
the suppression of gambling or opium smoking, but I would be very pleased to see the Government put
these things down in any way they like.
2235. Mr. Hawthorne.] Have you ever been engaged in gambling at any period of your life ? No; I have
been backwards and forwards four times since. 1 have been resident iu the Colony, and have never once
had anything to do with gambling.
2236. Does any one in your employ to your knowledge engage in gambling ? No ; none whatever. One
has gone home to China. The rest are all respectable men.
2237. Do those Chinamen who do engage, in gambling, and who come into your shop to do business with
you — do they ever have any conversation in relation to gambling, that is, with your people ? No ; they
would not speak to them about anything of that kind.
2238. You know nothing about your countrymen in Sydney at the present time having made large sums
of money through gambling? No ; I only heard of one case, where a man won £300.
2239. How is it that the Chinese leave their wives in China, instead of bringing them out here as you
have done now? The present difficulty is the £100 poll-tax.
2240. But that difficulty has only occurred lately ? Well, the majority of them who come here are too
poor to pay the passage money for their wives.
2241. Do they not indulge in a great deal of immorality in consequence of the absence of their wives?
That is best known to themselves. I would not know. I know they are a bit rowdy with the women,
but I cannot say myself any more.
2242. How long was your wife living behind in China before you brought her out here ? Twenty-two
years. I went home to see her four times since I have been out. I only brought her out this year.
2243. Mr. McEillop.] Do you allow opium-smoking on your premises ? No.
:2244. Do you remember a man named Riley being assaulted by a lot of Chinese for giving information
to the police some two years ago ? No.
2245. Do you remember any circumstance connected with that riot or row — a man being nearly killed,
for instance ? No. I know nothing about it.
2246. It is very extraordinary that you can remember some trivial circumstances very well, but anything
of a serious character you forget ? I am telling the truth ; I do not remember anything about it.
2247. You stated a little while ago that you were afraid to give your opinion re gambling and opium-
-smoking, I want you to understand that you have nothing to fear, as this Commission alone will know
-the nature of your evidence, at all events, until the report is published ? Yes, I am quite aware of that.
I would be very glad myself to fall in with anything the Commission might do quietly.
2218. You are in favour of these practices being abolished — suppressed ? Yes ; it would be a good thing
to put a stop to them.
2249. President.'] Before you go — and I may say that I think you are a repectable Chinaman — I would
like you to tell the Commission what you know about the Loon Yee Tong. That society we believe to
a secret society — with money at its disposal for the purpose of defending the Chinese against police
prosecutions, or persecution of any kind? My opinion would be a purely private opinion. On account of
there being so many poor Chinamen about at present, who would do anything for money, it would be
most dangerous if any of my people were to-know that I have been expressing opinions against them.*
2250. "What do you know of this society? I only know that these people who had the money' — the £420
I have spoken of — were people of very bad character indeed ; they attempted to do a lot of crooked
things, and an indignation meeting was held to get the money from them ; but as to the objects of the
society, other than putting coffins on board ships, I know nothing about it.
2251. Are you quite sure you do not know one other object ? Well, I have heard of it being for some
kind of protection ; but what it was I do not know. I should say that out of the £420 I have mentioned
£20 was sent to the hospital.
2252. Mr. McKillop.~\ Was not this book [Chinese account book of the Koon Tee Tong] prepared the
other day when the books were demanded by the Commission ? No. The other books can be got if you
wish to see them, and I will give instructions to have them sent up.
FRIDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
'§ustx&\—
The Mayor (Me. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Peesident.
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QTJONG- TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Moy Hing called and examined through Mr. Lisson, interpreter: — ■
Moy Hing. 2253. Mr. Abigail.'] Where do you live ? In Lower GeoTge-street.
--r— A— -v 2254. Are you a member of a Chinese firm ? Yes ; of the firm of Quong Hing Chong.
18 Sept., 1891. 2255. How many are there in the firm ? Two ; myself and a partner who is in Hong Kong.
2256. You are an officer of several Chinese societies, I believe? I am a member of one society only.
2257. What is its name ? The Koon Ye Tong.
2258. You have the books of that society ? Only the two produced.
2259. How long have you been connected with it ? About three years.
2260. These books only go back two years, where are the others ? The old books are at Sun War Loong's
2261. What are the objects of this society ? The taking up of dead bones to send to China.
2262. How much money has the society got ? The money is not in my place.
2263. What do the funds amount to ? Over £1,000.
2264. Where' is the money ? In one of the banks in Sydney. 2265.
[Note. — The interpreter was told to inform the witness that his confidence would be respected.]
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — 'MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 39
2265. 'To whose credit? It is lodged in the names of four firms— Quon" Hin°- Chong, Way :Kee, Choi M»y ffing.
Pook Loon, and Un Tab. ° /^^^
2266. Are all payments made by cheque? Tes ; all payments in connection with 'the 'taking up of ,fleafl.'18Sept.,lS91.
bodies.
2267. And do you state positively that no money is spent by that society for any other purpose >than!tbe
taking up of dead bones ? Quite so ; for no other purpose whatever.
2268. Is no money paid in the shape of fines for Chinamen summoned tothe Police Court? No.
2269. "Who subscribes the money ? Every member of my particular community subscribed £1.
2270. "What is the name of your community ? The Doon Good Community.
2271. And are there no special contributions from Chinese gambling places ?' No.
2272. Do you know of any other Chinese secret societies in Sydney? No; I have not been here very
long.
2273. How long? A little over four years.
2274. Are you connected with any gambling places ? No.
2275. Is it not a fact that you are a member of a syndicate that is connected with some of these gambling
places? No; I am only a businessman.
2276. Are you not the banker for a defence fund arising out of cases before the Police Court ? No ; I
have nothing to do with such a fund.
2277. Then I understand you to say that you reap no profit or benefit of any kind from any of the Chinese
gambling places in Sydney or in the country ? No ; I have too much legitimate business on my hands.
2278. How long have you lived down Lower George-street ? Pour years. I hare a branch business in
Goulburn-street.
2279. What business do you carry on down there ? I sell Chinese goods.
2280. Is there a fan-tan table in either of these places ? No.
2281. Do you not know of your own knowledge that gambling is carried on very extensively both in
George-street and in Goulburn-street ? Te3 ; I know that there are gambling places down there, but I
have never been in any of them.
2282. Have you seen printed notices outside the shops, both in Lower George-street and in Goulburn-
street, to the effect that gambling is carried on day and night ? Tes.
2283. Outside a number of places ? I have sometimes seen it outside a good many.
2284. And anybody can see them as they walk up and down the street ? Tes.
22S5. Are you on friendly terms with any members of the police force ? No ; I am not.
2286. Do you not know some of them by name ? No ; I. cannot speak much English.
2287. Do you see Europeans as well as Chinese going in and coming out of these gambling-houses in
Lower George and Goulburn Streets? Tes, but not much.
2288. What are your own feelings in reference to these gambling and opium-smoking places ? I will not
say what they are.
2289. Oh, but you must? They do not do me any harm, so I should not like to express an opinion.
2290. Do you gamble yourself ? No.
2291. Do you smoke opium ? No.
2292. Why ; — do you believe they are bad ? I would not like to smoke opium myself, but I do not know
whether it would be good or bad.
2293. Do you believe that Chinese gambling-dens elevate the community ; do they improve the morals of
those who gamble ? I will not express an opinion.
2294. Tou must answer my question ? They do me no harm, and I would not like to say.
2295. But you must say ? Not being a gambler and not being an opium-smoker I do not know whether
they are good or bad.
2296. What class of people keep these gambling-houses ? They would be cooks or gardeners, or other
kinds of working men.
2297. Do you think that attending these places would have upon those who go there an effect similar to
attending church, for instance ? I have never been to either, so I cannot say.
2298. But you have been to a Joss-house ? Oh ; it is certainly better to go to a Joss-house.
2299. Have you ever heard of your countrymen losing large sums of money in any of these places ? No ;
I should never hear of it. I am always in my store, attending to my business.
2300. Well, did you not authorise one of your assistants to make a present to a policeman not long ago?'
No ; none of my assistants can speak English.
2301. And you never gave a policeman a silver watch ? No ; never. I do not know any policemen.
2302. Did you ever advertise for girls to apply at your store for a situation ? Never.
2303. Are you married ? Tes.
2304. Where is your wife? She lives with me at the store.
2305. Is she a Chinese lady, or a European? She is a Chinese wife.
2306. Mr. Quong Tart. 2 Now, I want you to tell me whether you approve of gambling ? I do not wish
to answer that question.
2307. Tou must not be afraid of telling the truth; are you in favour of gambling or not; if you are,
say so ; if not, say that you are not ? A s far as I am personally concerned I should say that it is not good.
2308. Why are you afraid to answer this question ; who are you afraid of ? I am afraid that some of my
countrymen should get me into trouble.
2309. Do you ever see any European women or girls coming into any of these gambling-places ? No.
2310. What do you think about opium-smoking ; is it any good ? It is no good.
2311. Tou have heard a great deal against gambling from your European neighbours ; — can you suggest any
means of putting a stop to it ; what do you think of a meeting amongst the respectable Chinese merchants
for, the purpose of helping the Commission to put it down ? I cannot suggest anything. As far as
opium-smoking is concerned, of course many persons cannot help it; it has got«such a hold upon them.
2312. Mr. Hawthorne.'] What kind of a store do you keep ? I sell .English and. Chinese goods.
2313. Do .you sell opium ? Tes.
2314. What price do you usually get for it ? We get £1 0s. 3d. for a tin containing about 5 oz.
2315. Who are your principal customers, Chinese storekeepers or private individuals? We sell it; to
stores and private.individuals, and gardeners as well.
23 1G.
so
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Moy Hing. 2316. What is a fair average amount for an opium-smoker to get through in a week ? About 3 dwt.
^~-f~""J- 2317. But surely he would be a very poor man who could not afford to buy much ? A fair amount
ep •• ' would be about 3s. worth or 4s. worth in a week.
2318. Mr. Quony Tart.] Do you mean in a week or in a day? In a week.
2319. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Do you allow any opium-smoking on your premises ? No — never.
2320. How many men are engaged in your place ? Four.
2321. Do they all sleep on the premises ? Tes.
2322. Are they all Chinese ? Yes.
2323. All single men ? Tes ; I am the only married man in the house.
2324. Have you ever been inside a gambling-house ? No.
232.3. I suppose many of these gambling-house keepers in Lower George-street are customers of yours ?
Very few.
2326. Are you not afraid of giving evidence to-day lest it should offend some of your customers ? I am
not afraid of giving evidence, but it is none of my business.
2327. Are you not frightened of what you say to-day being made public ? No ; I am not frightened
at all.
2328. Have you been in conversation with any of those who have previously given evidence before the
Commission ? No ; I never saw their faces.
2329. Have you been in conversation with anyone since you had notice to appear here as a witness in
reference to what you were going to say ? No.
2330. Do you remember the visit that the Commission paid to Lower G-eorge-street some few weeks ago ?
I heard of it, but I did not see anything of it myself.
2331. Did you know that the Commission were coming to visit the district before they actually arrived?
I heard that visits would be paid before the Commission came, but I did not know where you would go.
2332. Who told you ? Some of the men in my store.
2333. Do you know Inspector Atwill or any of the other policemen ? I do not know one inspector or
one ordinary policeman.
2334. Mr. Mc Kill op.] Is it not a fad that you said, in answer to Mr. Abigail, you were frightened to
give evidence here ? Tes ; I did.
2335. Who are you frightened of ? I do not know anybody in particular that I should be frightened of.
2336. Is it not a fact that the Chinese gamblers are a dangerous crowd, and that it is they whom you are
frightened of ? I am not afraid of them. I am a business man.
2337. But if you are frightened you must be frightened of somebody. Is it the police you are afraid
of? No.
2338. Are you afraid of a secret society, or of anybody in particular? It is not that I am frightened of
any body of men at all. I have seen gambling in China, and I have seen it out here, but not being well
acquainted with the laws of this country I do not know what I ought to say.
2339. Tou must speak the truth, and then the law will protect you. Are you opposed to opium-smoking?
I do not wish to give a decided answer.
2340. How much do you pay for your house ? £3 a week.
2341. How many rooms are there ? Eour.
2342. Did you see Way Kee yesterday ? No ; I only saw him on the other side of the street.
2343. Did you see Mr. Way Kee's grandson ? Only when I came to the Town Hall.
2344. Were you not talking to him outside the Town Hall? No.
2345. Mr. Abigail.] Is it not a fact that your firm is consulted about disputes and fights that arise in
connection with these gambling-dens ? We are consulted with reference to the taking up of dead bodies,
but very little in reference to anything else.
2346. I am speaking of fights and disturbances in connection with the gambling-dens ? I have been asked
to give advice, but have refused to do so.
2347. Who sent for you ? I do not know who it was, but a slip of paper came to my store one day asking
me to go out to give advice about a matter.
2348. Where were you asked to go ? No particular place was mentioned.
2349. And nobody's signature was attached to the note ? No, there was no signature. All that the
note said was, " Fighting (or something of that kind) in connection with a gambling disturbance. Please
attend meeting."
2350. How often have you received invitations of that kind ? Only once.
2351. How long ago ? About two years ago.
2352. Have you not attended a meeting of that kind within the last four months ? No.
2353. Has nobody from your firm ? No.
235 1. Mr. r4uong Tart.] Are there books connected with the Koon ye Tong ? Tes.
2355. One is from Mr. Way Kee ? Tes. Mr. Way Kee pays the money out of this book (a petty-cash
book).
2356. Whose writing is in the other book ? Mine.
2357. Mr. Abigail] When did you make these entries ? In 1890.
2358. Mr. McKillop.] Did you copy the entries from another book into it recently ? The old book is at
Sun War Loon's.
2359. Mr. Hawthorne.] Have you ever heard what amount of money these gamblers usually make per
week? No ; I am not sufficiently intimate with them.
Mr. Henry Joseph Maguire called and examined : —
H J Ma™;™ 2360, president.] How long have you lived in Lower George-street ? Twenty-two years in one house.
^jjaagmre 236L What are you m business ? A photographer.
WsSilTOl. ^62. Do you know Way Kee ? I do.
ISbd. Have you had any important conversation with him during the last six months with regard to the
police ? No. " °
2364. Did Way Kee ever tell you that he had paid a large sum of money to Sergeant Dawson ? No ;
one of his clerks told me. Indeed it was common talk in the neighbourhood at the time. He did not say
that
CHINESE GAMBLINa COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
61
that the money was paid to Sergeant Dawson, but that it was lent, and that there were demands made ^r- .
upon him by Dawson frequently, in consideration of something that was going on. Here is a photo- H-J-Maguire.
graph of old Way Kee himself. l8Se~>t"l891
2365. We have already seen him in the flesh ;— you say that one of his clerks told you that he was in the ep ''
habit of lending money to the police ? To a particular policeman.
2366. Not to the police generally, but only to Sergeant Dawson? Yes, that is the man.
2367. Did you endeavour to get any information out of the clerk as to what the money was lent for, and
whether it was lent on security? No ; at the time it was general talk.
2368. I do not want to know what was general talk, I want to know about that particular conversation
with one of Way Kee's clerks ? That is all.
2369. Did you ever ask whether the money was repaid ? The statement made by the clerk was that this
particular police officer had several times demanded a loan of £10 or £20 (I forget which), for reasons
which I never found out until a fortnight ago, and then I found out what the real cause of it was.
2370. How did you discover these reasons ; — with whom were you talking ? A gentleman had spoken to
Mr. Nock.
2371. I want to know whom you were speaking to on the occasion when you found out the reasons for
these loans ? Mr. Nock.
2372. What did he say to you ? He was alluding to a conversation he had been having with a gentle-
man who had come to him in connection with some matter, and he said, " Tou know, gentlemen, why
it was that the police officer could demand the money ? " and then he told me why.
2373. What were the reasons given to you by Mr. Nock for these advances ? That Sergeant Dawson
had become aware of property in Way Kee's, supposed to be stolen, and that, having Way Kee in his
power, he demanded the loan of money under threats of prosecution if he refused.
2374«. Then, according to that, this money was lent to Dawson in order to silence him with regard to the
discovery of stolen goods which he knew to be in Way Kee's store ? Tes ; that is the accusation.
2375. And that is the reason why those so-called loans were made to Dawson ? Tes.
2376. Then it is not true that those loans were made in respect of the gambling transactions that take
place amongst the Chinese and Europeans in Lower George-street ? No.
2377. Tou are of opinion that such payment of money had nothing whatever to do with the bribing of
police not to take notice of the gambling in Lower George-street? Quite so. It could not be, because
gambling did not at that time exist in Lower George-street.
2378. I want a direct answer. Are you of opinion that these loans had nothing to do with the alleged
bribing of the police in order to induce them, to overlook the Chinese gambling in Lower George-street ?
I am of that opinion, for as I have just said gambling did not then exist.
2379. When was it that this £20 is said to have been paid ? I am not sure whether it was £10 or £20,
but at all events, it was paid about ten years ago.
2380. The particular transaction I am questioning you about is ten years old ? Tes.
23S1. Do you know whether any payments of money have been paid by Way Kee to any member of the
Police Force within the last five years ? No, so far as I know.
2382. A nd the only suspicious transaction between the Chinese and members of the police force with
regard to the payment of money is ten years old ? Tes, so far as I personally know. I never said that
the police were bribed.
2383. Way Kee is, in your opinion, a receiver of stolen property ? He was considered to be at the time.
2384. Has his moral character improved lately ? I do not know.
2385. When was it that you considered him a receiver of stolen property ? Ten years ago.
2386. He purchased old lead, and things of that kind, I suppose ? Tes ; and scrap iron and brass cocks
out of engines, and so on.
2387. Tou have heard it alleged among your neighbours that the police must have been bribed ; other-
wise they would have suppressed the gaming ? Yes ; but you are going away from Way Kee to gaming.
2388. Tes ; I am ? Well. I have heard that people down there believed that the police have been bribed,
but I made no charge.
2389. I do not want you to make any charge ; I only want you to answer my questions. Gaming is con-
ducted in a public way in Lower George- street, is it not ? Tes ; in the most public manner every day
and every night, and here is a photograph taken last week, of a shop with a notice to the effect that it is
a gaming-house posted outside.
2390. Have you personally made any attempt to discover why the police do not suppress the gambling-
houses down there ? I have frequently called upon them to suppress it, but the police sergeants have
told me that unless the authorities initiate the action they have no power in the matter.
2391. Whom have you spoken to ? I have spoken to several.
2392. "What are their names ? I have spoken to Inspector Atwill before.
2393. Tou asked him why he did not suppress this public gaming? Tes.
2394. And what did he say ? That they had no power to enter, and that there was no use in their trying
to. In fact my own opinion was that they did not want to try. Every Chinese gaming-house in Lower
George-street has the notice shown in that photograph posted outside.
2395. If the police had been corrupted, and that was the reason why the gaming had not been suppressed,
are you of opinion that the corruption would be general throughout the force ? No ; because there are
some good honest men amongst the police, and some who would not get an opportunity.
2396. Why do not these good and honorable men, who might be either officers or subordinates, in the
exercise of their duty, endeavour to suppress the gaming ? They have all said that they cannot act
without the authority of their superior officer, and that if they did they would be liable to dismissal.
2397. Can you give me the names of any of the policemen to whom you have spoken ? Oh ; I have
spoken to lots of them.
2398. I should like the name of one ? Sergeant M'Guire.
2399. What did he say ? That they had no power of entry, and could not go in without the authority
of their superior officers.
2400. Had he reported that gaming was being carried on openly ? It was not necessary.
2401. But will you kindly answer the question ? I will not answer that question, because Inspector
Atwill
2402. Tou must answer it. Did Sergeant M'Guire say that he had mentioned the matter to Inspector
Atwill ? No ; he did not. 2403.
62 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Hr. 2403. "Who would be bis superior officer ? Inspector Atwill.
H. J.Magmre. 2404,. You see I want to get at the fact that reports were made to Mr. Atwill by his subordinates, if
TRs"t*TR0i that was the case ? I have spoken to Inspector Atwill myself.
p ' 2405. But Sergeant M'G-uire did not tell you that he had reported the matter to Inspector Atwill ?
No. Tou better ask Sergeant Maguire that question.
240G. What did you say to Mr. Atwill ? I asked him if it were not possible to make a raid, and
suppress the evil that was doing so much injury to the district, and he said, " No, tbey could not go in,
without order, and they were to a certain extent, handicapped." I then asked him why he did not proceed
against the men who loitered along the footpath outside the gambling-dens, but it was like pouring water
on a duck's back for me to make such a request.
2407. Well, could he not get the orders ? He could if he liked, I suppose ; but it is not everyone who
does like.
2408. Inspector Atwill is supreme in the district, I suppose ? Tes ; except that Mr. Keid passes up
and down every evening, and takes no notice of what is going on.
2409. But Inspector Atwill is responsible for the way the work is done ? Tes.
2410. Did you ever think that Inspector Atwill was corrupted? No, I did not think that exactly; but
there was evidently something wrong in the state of Denmark.
2411. Never mind Denmark. We are talking about Lower George-street now. Had you ever any
reason to believe that Inspector Atwill was corrupted ? That is a very serious charge.
2412. I know it is, and that is why I am pressing you on the point ? Well ; I will answer it indirectly.
2413. Tou must answer it directly. Had you ever any reason to suspect that Inspector Atwill must
have been corrupted ? I had very grave reasons.
2414. Now give us as well as you can, and sharply, your reasons ? In the first place, gambling was not
suppressed as it could have been. In the second place, Inspector Atwill when asked to subscribe 5s.
to get his photo, taken, said to me that neither he nor his family had ever had their photos, taken, but
that he considered it the duty of the photographer to take his photo, and the photos, of his family free
of charge. He considered also that the baker, the butcher, and the coal and firewood man should supply
him free of charge for the protection rendered to the community by him. He said that at my own
door.
2415. Have you any other reason? Well, I thought that that was very grave reason.
2416. Have you any other reason ? No.
2417. Tour first reason was that gaming was publicly carried on without any serious attempts on the part
of the police to suppress it, and your second reason was that Inspector Atwill alleged that you should
take his and his family's photos, free of charge ; that the tradespeople down there generally should
supply their goods to him for the protection that he afforded them ? Tes ; and when asked whether the
Government did not pay him sufficiently he said " No."
2418. Now, I want to know what there is between those reasons and the fact that gambling is carried on
in Lower George-street. The people who would take his photos, for nothing and the people carrying on
the businesses you have referred to down there are white people and would not be concerned in bribing
him to connive at Chinese gambling? No; but with one hand if he would accept presents from the
Europeans in return for protecting them he might with the other hand accept bribes from the Chinese
for protecting them from the law.
2419. Well, to your knowledge did he ever make an arrangement of that kind ? No ; the police would
not ring a bell all over the town if they were going to accept bribes from Chinamen — that would be done
behind the scenes. I have been on the stage before to-day, and I know the ropes. Pressmen do know a
little more than the majority of human beings.
2420. Was Mr. Atwill serious when you had this conversation with him ? He was.
2421. And the conversation arose out of a suggestion of yours that he should have his photo, taken ? My
sister, I think it was, said to him, owing to some remark or other, that it was time he subscribed 5s. to
have his photo, taken ; and then the conversation begun.
2422. What would you charge him for taking his photo.? Well, you ought to know — the same price
that vou paid.
2423" What was that? 15s. a dozen.
2424. Tou have a large connection down there? I have not got that now ; business is very bad.
2425. And I suppose the Chinese go in for photographs ? They patronise me very well.
242(5. Then you are in constant communication with them? I am.
2427. Have any of them ever told you that they bribed the police in order to secure their connivance?
They are conservative in matters of that kind. No, they never have.
2428. Can you assist the Commission in prosecuting its inquiries — can you trace any bribes? If I put
my thinking cap on perhaps 1 could.
2429. Have you brought your thinking cap with you? No, I have not ; I. thought it might be in the way.
2430. Tou know Sergeant Dawson personally ? I do.
2431. Do you know that Sergeant Dawson was Mr. Way Kee's landlord at Lane Cove? No; I have
heard it.
2432. Might not that £20 you spoke of not be payment of rent? Sergeant Dawson was in the police
force at the time.
2433. Do you mean to say that he had no land at the time ? I do not know that he had.
2434. Might it not be payment of rent? No ; it was after that that he purchased the land.
2435. How long is it since he left the police force ? Nine or ten years ago. 1 think that your interpreter
can give you full particulars of the exact time, because it was then that Dawson took possession of some
Chinese premises (On Chong's), on account of the small-pox, and Mr. Lisson resided in On Chong's
house, and was let out by Dawson. At the same time all other inmates of the house were kept in close
confinement under the police. Mr. Lisson gave me a report for the press, and in that way I startled
the city.
2436. Mr. AMgaill] Tou have a very intimate knowledge of what is being carried on in Lower George-
street? I have.
2437. The gambling is still being carried on, I believe ? Tes.
2438. These white placards on the shops, of which you have given us a photo., state that gambling is
carried on day and night? Tes ^Saturdays and Sundays, too, without any attempt: to conceal it.
2439.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES 03? EVIDENCE. 63,
2439. And everybody passing along the street can see them? Tes — everybody. ^H:J*
2440. The police passing up and down, on their beats could not fail to see them ? No. Etegme.
2441. Are the frequenters of these places Europeans? Tes; labouring men — men working on the ,£^"7 "Tim
wharves, sailors, and otters. 18Sept„lB»l.
244-2. Do you see any girls visiting them ? No ; I should not like to say that I have seen any girls
knocking about there, but I have seen youths sometimes.
2443. Have you seen girls visiting the places ? No ; but my knowledge of life amongst the Chinese
leads me to think. that they are very mora], because I have seen a woman with a little liquor going into a
shop, and the Chinese standing like statues, as though they did not know how to touch her. As a matter
of fact, I believe that they are so engrossed in their gambling that they have no time to think of anything
■of that kind.
2444. What are the sanitary conditions of these places ; — are they very clean and tidy ? No. I am very
sorry you went at night to see them. Tou ought to have gone by day. The rooms are filthy, and divided,
into very small cribs.
2445. Tes, we have seen all that? Tou saw it half by gaslight and half by imagination, methinks.
2446. Are they overcrowded ? "Well, there are more in a house than I would like to have in a house
■of mine, but I have never had more peaceable neighbours.
2447. Are the smells bad ? Tes.
2448. They smoke opium a great deal, do they not ? Tes ; and the man who has just been here (Moy
Hing) is one of the largest dealers in opium in Sydney. I often go into his place to interpret letters and
telegrams for him, and I see numbers of people buying opium.
2449. What rents do the Chinese pay? Por one little room they pay £4 10s. a week, and they have
never had the shutters down for two years. It is admittedly a gaming-house. There is no sleeping
accommodation, or accommodation of any kind.
2450. Are most of the places down there carried on as gambling-houses ? For no other purpose.
2451. Do you know of any person who has paid a bonus to the landlord in order to compete with the
Chinese for the tenancy of a shop ? I do ; but with regard to that question I must tell you that some of
the landlords are Members of the Legislative Council.
2452. I will give you a chance to tell us about landlords presently. Now, I want to hear about the
bonuses ? Well, Mr. Chazel, the hairdresser, had to pay a bonus. The Hon. W. A. Long is trustee for
his sister in respect of the property.
2453. Do you know what the bonus amounted to ? Mr. Chazel gave £10, and I think he said that the agent
had to get £30 from the Chinamen.
2454. Does that firm carry on any gambling ? No ; they do not permit it.
2455. They are merchants? Tes. A sum. of £35 was also paid to Mr. Phillip Eech, not as a bonus,
but as a present to Mr. Rech's wife and family, as he did not wish it to be known that he had received a
bonus. Then a bonus was paid by Lee Hing, of the firm of Sum Kum Tiy, now in China.
2456. Do you know any gambling-houses that have paid bonuses ? I cannot give you any instances, only
Mr. Williams, the jeweller, when he wanted to get hold of a place, offered £10 bonus, and the agent said,
" No ; I must have £20."
2457. But do you think that that is owing to the Chinese living there ? Tes ; because of the nature of
the business that they live by.
2458. Then is the business so brisk for Europeans that they will compete with the Chinese for these
premises ? The legitimate tradespeople are starving. They are doing no business.
2459. What accommodation have you in your own shop ? Eour rooms and a kitchen.
2460. What rent do you pay ? £3. I was paying £1 17s. 6d. a week.
2461. Who is your landlord? Mr. Long is the trustee.
2462. Then the effect of the Chinese living down there has been to increase your rent ? Tes ; and to
injure my business, because, we had a good business before the Chinese gamblers- came down there, and
now it has gone.
2463. What year was it that you paid £1 17s. 6d. ? I think it is just about ten years ago ; just before
the Chinese gambling came into operation.
2464. Chinese gambling has increased very much then in that locality ? It is about eight or nine years
since the first gambling-house was started.
2465. But have not rents gradually increased all over the city during the last few years ? I cannot say
that I have heard it. I know that they have gone beyond our limit down in that quarter.
2466. Tou were not one of the deputation that waited upon the Colonial Secretary? No.
2467. Tou are not a member of the Anti-Chinese League? No ; I am not.
2468. Did you read the statements made in the press about that time ? Well, if I did not read them I
heard, them read.
2469. I am referring principally to the statements that a system of wholesale bribery of the Police Porce
was being carried on ; do you know anything about the gold watches, diamond rings, and so on, that it is
said have been given to the police by the owners of Chinese gambling-houses ? No ; I was no party to
the charges ; and what is more, I thought that if they wanted to get rid of the Chinese it was a mistake
to introduce such a subject, and I condemn it.
2470. President.'] Why did you object to those charges being made?' Because they went away from the
point.
2471. But bow if they were true ? Because however firmly they might believe them, I did not think that
they would be able to prove them.
2472. Do you yourself after living down there all those years know anything whatever of anything that
would sustain such a charge ? No ; excepting that we have got eyes in our head and they lead us to
believe a lot.
2473. Mr. Abigail.] Have you any doubt of this ; that the police must be cognizant of the fact that
gambling is carried on down there to an alarming extent ? No ; I have no doubt about it.
2474. Tou know that by passing up and down the street day after day they must know that gambling is
carried on down there ? They cannot help knowing it.
2475. Do not you think that it ia their duty to take steps to suppress it ? Tesr I do. That is what they
axe paid. for.
2476.
64
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MIN0TES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. H. J. 2476. Do you think that they have taken every step for its suppression, or do you think that they have
_.a a*"- neglected their duty ? They have neglected their duty, and seriously neglected it.
18 Sept 1891 2477. And do you think that the effect of their gambling places is to injure the locality and demoralise
every one who comes in contact with them ? The gambling injures the district and impoverishes the
people. Wives and children are reduced to starvation and have to fall back upon other people to get
something to eat.
2478. Is it a fact that it is almost impossible to get into these places although the police are armed with
warrants ? Well if I had the management of the force I should not have found it difficult.
2479. You think that if you had contrpl of the Force you would easily find a way to get in ? I do ; but
if I had no desire to get in and drummed it about the country first, then I should not get in. Pardon. me
if I suggest that your interpreter could give you a lot of information about a testimonial presented to
Sergeant Dawson in reference to getting out of a house where they had small-pox.
2480. Mr. McKillop.~\ Are you sure that you are referring to our interpreter ? Yes ; I saw him sitting
in the next room.
2481. Mr. Quong Tart.] Can you tell us how many houses are kept by the Chinese for gaming purposes ?
No, I cannot tell now. I never took the trouble to count. I know however that it is too many.
2482. About how many ? I suppose there are twenty in Lower George-street.
2483. Were you ever in G-oulburn-street or Wexford-street ? No, not that I know of. I think I have
passed through G-oulburn-street in going to catch the tram, but that is all.
2484. How long is it since you first heard about the Chinese gambling transactions ? About eight years.
Chinese gambling was started in the first instance just opposite Sun Kum Tiy's.
2485. Have you ever taken any part in the game ? No, never.
2486. Do you understand at all how it is played ? No.
2487. Do you think it is a fair game, or is there any cheating in connection with it ? I really do not
know the game.
2488. How many live in your house ? Eour — my brother, my sister, an invalid aunt, and myself.
2489. Can you give us the names of any respectable Chinese merchants who are not connected in any
way, as far as you know, with gambling ? Messrs. On Lek & Lee, On Chong & Co., Sum Kum Tiy, Tin
War, Boo Loong, and Mr. Dobson. There are only about five firms, as far as I can see, who do not
participate in gambling.
2490. Mr. Abigail] The respectable firms do not represent half the total ? No ; about one-sixth of the
houses inhabited by Chinamen are devoted to legitimate trade, and only about 5 per cent. of. the
individuals.
2491. Mr. Quong Tart.] You say that the Chinese are very dirty ? Yes.
2492. Where do you find the most dirt, amongst the gamblers or the merchants ? The gamblers are
dirty in every way, while the storekeepers' places are as clean as my own. Boo Loong's, for example, is as
clean as any place in the city.
2493. Is Ah Toy's a clean place ? Yes.
2494. Is any gambling done there ? I cannot say.
2495. Do you say that you have seen policemen standing outside the houses whilst gambling has been
going on inside ? Well, you cannot help seeing them on duty at the door.
2496. Can you give us the names of aDy of these policemen ? Sergeant Higgins, Senior-constable Adaire,
Constable Carson, and Constable Beadman, the man who wears the diamond rings. They are going back-
wards and forwards every day.
2497. Who wear the diamond rings? Beadman, and several others. Beadman wears a very large one,
and is very heavy in the paraphernalia of his jewellery.
2498. Have you seen them wear the diamond rings lately ? Yes. In fact, I was walking down the road
with Mr. Kelly, M.P., when Beadman came along, and said that it was very hard that these charges should
be made against the police, and that he bought his diamond ring at a pawn-shop down the street. I said
to him, " You seem to be very flurried. If there is nothing in these charges, why should you mind them ?"
Carson, who was with us, said, " I wish someone would mention my namel would take a Supreme Court
action against him for £10,000, and if I could not get it I would take it out of his body."
2499. Had he a diamond ring on ? That I cannot say.
2500. How long ago is it that you had this conversation with him ? Within the last month, since the
Commission was appointed. They have since asked me at my own door where they could get gold watches.
2501. You say that the Chinese who keep gambling places are very dirty ; — do you know of any
European places in the city equal to them ? No, for the simple reason that the Chinamen's places are
shut up all day long, and the Chinamen and the great unwashed are standing about smoking very inferior
material.
2502. Is there opium smoking going on in every gambling-house? I do not know; I do not go inside.
2503. But you can detect opium when you smell it? No ; I do not think that anyone can detect opium
from the other things.
2504. Anyone who has' smelt opium once can distinguish it always ? I have no doubt that they do smoke
opium, because I have had to go to the doors of several of their houses with photographs when they have
patronised me, and' I have seen several of them lying on couches and smoking over a lamp ; so that if
that is smoking opium I have seen a lot of it.
2505. You say that you do not think the police have done their duty ? Not by a long way.
2506. Not because they have no power ? In my opinion they have quite sufficient power if they liked to
use it. They make one raid in three years, and if they made a raid every week they would soon stop it.
2507. Who is the greatest gambler down there ? I do not know.
2508. Surely, as you have lived down there so long, you ought to know ? Several houses have been con-
sidered at different times the biggest gambling places. The proprietor of a house at the end of the row
in which I live — I do not know who owns it, it is No. 181— is supposed, according to rumour, to make
£3,000 a year clear profit out of it.
2509. That is Sun Sam Kee's ; have you seen many Europeans going into it ? That house swarms with
people coming out and saying that they have lost every penny.
2510. At what hours ? Any time between 7 o'clock and 11 o'clock at night.
2511. Do you know any Europeans who go in there ? I have seen a Civil Servant going in to purchase
lottery tickets. 2512.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 6£
2512. What suggestion could you make to stop this evil? That if the Government have not the power Mr. H. J.
to suppress it they ought to gain revenue by it ; but in my opinion the shortest way, and the sweetest, is Maguire.
to crush it out by an Act of Parliament, and if gambling is carried on hold the landlord equally responsible ,X^VT^,
with the gamblers. 18 Sept., 1891.
2513. Mr. Hawthorne,] Now about Inspector Atwill. How did the conversation between you and him,
to the effect that you should supply him with photos., and that the other tradesmen should supply him
with other things free of charge, come about ? I was sitting at the door of my shop with my sister, and
one of us — I forget which — by way of a joke, said, " I wish he would speculate 5s. in a photo., for he is
always looking at them." He replied, " I never had my photo, or those of my family taken." I said,
"It is near time you had," to which he replied that he "considered that the photographer should supply
himself and his family with photos, free of charge, and that the butcher, the baker, and the coal and
firewood inan should also supply him with goods free of charge for the protection that he afforded.
2514. Did you think he was serious ? Tes ; he was as serious as though he was on his oath.
2515. What reply did you make him ? I asked if he did not consider that the Government paid him
sufficiently, because we were surprised that such a foolish suggestion should come from a man in charge
of the district ; and he said, " No ; they do not."
2516. Are you and Inspector Atwill on friendly terms? We are.
2517. Have you had any conversation with him since the Commission started ? No.
2518. Has he had any opportunity of doing so ? No ; I have not given him any opportunity.
2519. Tour object in keeping away from Inspector Atwill was because you thought you were going to
be called upon to give evidence ? I thought so, as I was such an old resident in Lower George-street.
2520. So you thought at the time that you would probably have to come and give the evidence that you
have given this afternoon ? Tes ; I thought it very likely.
2521. Has you any conversation with the Members of Parliament for West Sydney who introduced the
deputation that waited upon the Premier ? Before I was aware of the existence of the Anti-Chinese
Gambling League the Members of Parliament for West Sydney came to my place to have their photos,
taken.
2522. And before they knew that they were going to introduce this deputation to the Premier had they
any conversation with you about the matter ? Tes ; the four Members for West Sydney.
2523. What was the purport of the conversation? It was to draw attention to the Chinese gambling.
2524. Did you state to him or to anybody else anything about the diamond rings ? No ; I never mentioned
anything about diamond rings.
2525. Did you say to anyone else anything about the bribery of the police ? No ; I only told Mr. Davis
about Dawson and Way Kee, and said that it was stated at the deputation that Lower George-street was
the best beat in the city. I said that near the door of the hotel that recently fell down one man made £17
in one week for " over-time men-of-war's men."
2526. Mr. Abigail.'] That was for arresting them ? Tes. I have heard that the Imperial Government pays
£3 and the Colonial Government £5, or a total of £8 per man and that one constable received £17 in a
week and another £27 in a fortnight. I have seen two sergeants throw their handcuffs — " chain shot" as
they call it — after the sailors, and say that it was a pity they had not broken their heads, as they had lost
£3 by missing them. I then sent a letter to the naval officer in charge on the subject.
2527. That was previous to the deputation to the Premier ? Tes, years ago.
2528. Have you seen any of the police going about with Chinamen ? Tes.
2529. Have you seen any of the police going into the oyster-saloon ? I should not be surprised at it.
2530. Tou have never seen any of them going in ? I might have done.
2531. Have you seen Constables Beadman and Carson going in and buy refreshment with the Chinese?
They are always hanging about that quarter ; but, unless you dogged them, you could find out nothing
definite on the matter.
2532. What induced you to take a photograph of those premises ? It was in order to show what sort of
houses they were, how distinctly they were labelled, so that you would see that the police really had no
excuse.
2533. Were you aware, previously to taking the photo., what was the meaning in English of those
announcements ? I have known it for years.
2534. Tou have always known what they meant ? I have.
2535. And do you think they are known to the generality of Europeans who frequent the houses ? Tes.
2536. And do you think that the police who are on duty in that quarter are aware of the meaning of the
notices ? Every one of them is aware of it.
2537. Tou are quite sure ? I am. If there is an isolated case in which a man is not aware of it he must
be very dull — much duller than I gave him credit for, and ought to be made a Sunday school teacher.
2538. And you think that, seeing the notice, the police ought to have interfered with them ? Tes.
2539. Tou say that you have lost a great deal of business since the Chinese gamblers came amongst
you? Tes.
2540. Tet you say at the same time that you have done a good deal of business with the Chinese ?
Tes, I have.
2541. Well, do you think you have made up from trade with the Chinese what you have lost from the
Europeans ? Not 1 per cent. Ladies and gentlemen who used to come to me to have their photos.
taken have told me that they would come now but for the Chinese nuisance.
2542. Tou must be doing a good trade, however, to pay the rent you do? Well, we have to be at it from
7 o'clock in the morning till 11 and 12 o'clock at night ; and, very often, on Sundays as well. .
2543. What is the reason that business men will remain there when there are vacant places higher up the
street ? They cannot help it. I would have been out of it years ago if I could, but I have an invalid
aunt, who has been out of her mind for seventeen years, to look after, and cannot leave.
2544. If the Chinese were removed do you think you could do a larger trade ? I do.
2545. Are there any empty houses down there ? There are — one owned by the Hon. George Thornton
has been vacant for three months, and he will not let it to a Chinaman.
1UESDAY,
272—1
66 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
TUESDAY, 22 SEPTEMBER, 1S01.
present: —
The Mayor (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FBANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Tick-President.
BAMSAY McKlLLOP, Esq., | QTTONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STITABT HAWIHOENE, Esq.
Mr. II. J. Maguire further examined : —
Mr- . 25-16. Mr. McKillop.] Do you remember Sergeant Macintosh being in charge of that district— Lower
H.J.Maguire. George-street— at one time P Yes.
•''CT>~>r"R3!n 2.517. During Sergeant Macintosh's time, was gambling carried on to the same extent there as it is now?
"' ' No ; it is certainly on the increase.
2548. During the time Serjeant Macintosh was on duty in that district, do you know if he made any
raids on the gambling-dens kept by the Chinese there ? During the wholo of the time 1 remember only
three or four raids being made.
2549. You stated in your evidence at the last meeting of the Commission that you had seen policemen
very often going into these gambling-dens; — have you seen them go in there in uniform or were they
plain-clothes constables ? They were in private clothes mostly, but since this investigation started I have
noticed two sergeants going in— one in private clothes and one in police uniform. They went to take an
account, so far as I can learn, of the number of persons residing on the premises.
2550. Has Sergeant Maguire ever made it his business to enter these gambling-dens to your knowledge ?
I cannot say, except it might be on the occasion of police raids being made.
2551. Is he on that beat ? Yes.
2552. Do you remember a riot taking place in Lower George-street a year or eighteen months or two
years ago ? A riot ?
2553. A row, then ; — do you remember a particular row occurring there about the time stated ? Oh,
that is a weekly occurrence.
2554. Do you remember a half-caste Chinaman named Eiley being assaulted ? I heard something about
it, but know nothing of it personally. I have seen fights in the streets, and people carried away covered
with blood, and I have seen iron bars used in such rows.
2555. You have seen them used ? Yes.
2556. Would these rows occur during the day or night? Both by day and night.
2557. Have you ever received any threatenins; letters ? No.
2558. Do you know of anybody who has received threatening letters ? No ; and if I did I would take
very little notice of it. I am not weak-kneed.
2559. Are you aware of any secret societies existing among the Chinese ? No ; but I have heard of such.
25l'0. Do you know of any sustentation fund subscribed to for the purpose of making presents to the
police, or paying the law expenses of its members who may get into trouble ? Not of my own knowledge.
2561. Have you ever had any conversation with any of Way Kee's clerks with reference to such a fund ?
No ; I have not been in Way Kee's store now for six or eight months.
2562. Have you ever taken photographs of policemen and presented them to them free of charge ? No ;
I do not go " on the nod " with any of them. Any policeman who has had his photograph taken at my
place paid the full price for them.
2563. Nobody except Mr. Atwill has spoken to you on the same terms as he has done ? No.
2564. Can you tell us the number of the house, the shutters of which, as you said, have not been taken
down for eighteen months ? These [produced'} are the photographs of the houses I mentioned. This
[pointing to one of tJieni] is the crib for which £4 10s. and taxes equal to £5 per week rent is paid. It
was formerly a shooting gallery, and forms part of the public-house, which uses the yard at the back of it.
The shutters of that house have not been taken down for eighteen months.
2565. Do you remember the time when Mr. Johnston was Inspector of that district ? I do.
2566. Mr. Abigail.'] When was this photograph taken ? Last Saturday afternoon.
2567. Did Inspector Johnson, while in charge of that district, make any raids, or take special steps to
suppress the gambling-dens in that — No. 4 — district ? I do not remember that. All I remember of any
circumstances connected with Inspector Johnson is this : On one occasion — it was on Sunday, between
II and 12 o'clock — I saw two women going round the street in a half drunken condition, and semi-naked.
I drew the attention of a policeman to the circumstance, the women having by that time gone round the
back street. I had no other conversation with the constable, but I was seen speaking to him by Mr.
Atwill, whp was at that time under Inspector Johnson, and he (Mr. Atwill) reported the constable
to head-quarters, and he was fined a day's pay. I explained the circumstances to Superintendent Bead
on the constable's account, but got no satisfaction, and I then spoke to Inspector Johnson, and threatened
to have the matter brought before Parliament ; but in the meantime the constable had resigned on
account of the treatment meted out to him, and I thought it was no use going any further.
2568. Do you know of any cases verging on leprosy having occurred in that part of George-street? Yes.
2569. You are quite sure of that ? Oh, yes ; I am quite sure, because the place is only a few doors off,
and the young fellow who was affected with it made his escape. It was discovered after he came to the
country, and he lived there for twelve months or so. He made his escape to China a couple of
months ago.
2570. Are you of opinion that, had there been proper inspection of these buildings, the presence of this
leper would have been found out sooner ? It was well known among the Chinamen there.
2571. Was it known among the police ? That I cannot say.
2572. Was it generally known among the European residents, or to any number of them ? I do not know.
2573. But it was known to you ? Yes ; but too late for proceedings being taken. It was through my
making inquiries as to what was the matter with this man that the bubble burst, as it were.
2574. You stated in your evidence the other day that you had' often seen young lads in these Chinese
gambling-dens ? Yes.
2575. Any young girls there of 14 or 15 years of age ? No ; they have been remarkably free from
women as. far as I could see.
2576.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
67
2576. Is it a fact that, on the arrival of steamers from China, the people coming by them principally *fc- H. J.
lodge in these places in Lower George-street ? I do not know that ; but in years gone by I have seen ™W^
six or seven thousand of them in the street, occupying from Argyle-street to Charlotte-place, and they 22 Herat 1891
■would house from five to six hundred in a house. Mr. Nock told me the other day that in one house' ': ^"'
alone he had fitted out for the diggings no less than 700 Chinamen.
2577. How did they dispose of themselves— did they all lie on top of one another ? I do not know that.
2578. How long ago is this, to the best of your knowledge ? It is some years back.
2579. Can you not give us an idea — was it four or five, or six or seven years ago ? Well, it is now nine
years since the £10 poll-tax was put on ;— it is ten or twelve years ago, perhaps.
2580. Have you had a conversation with Inspector Atwill since you were here last Friday ? No.
Indeed, I have avoided him in every respect.
2581. Has Inspector Atwill put himself in your way in any manner ? No ; I may say that I have not
given him the slightest opportunity, for if I saw him coming down the street in my direction, I would
walk away.
2582. Have you had a conversation with any member of the police force on matters relating to this.
Commission ? No.
2583. With Constable Adair, for example ? No.
2584. Or Sergeant Higgins ? No ; with none of them.
2585. Mr. Abigail.'] Tou brought two photographs here of Chinese-kept houses in Lower George-street ; one~-
- of these is kept by Han Kee ; you will notice that the tickets are partially tern off the shop fronts ; — is
thab of recent date ? Yes ; since the Commission started. All the papers have been swept off since then,
and the places have been cleaned up.
2586. Tou produced another photograph of a shop with the shutters up, and on which the papers are dis-
tinetly noticeable now ; when was that photograph taken ? On Saturday evening last.
2587. There is no attempt to interfere with these papers in this particular case, and anyone passing down
the street can see them ; do you know what these papers contain in writing? Yes; the notice states;
that " fan-tan is carried on day and night."
2588. Mr. McKilloj).] Do you know Sergeant Higgins ? I do.
2589. Do you know if he owns much property ? Yes ; he is, according to reports, a wealthy man. I have
heard that he paid £4,000 for a property a few months ago. Mr. Davis, M.F., told me so. JFor my own
part I do not know anything about it.
2590. Do you think he could have acquired that property from the salary he has received in his official
capacity ? Well, that is drawing the line rather close.
2591. You can form an opinion, I suppose ; that is all I am asking you to do ? Well, I have been living
twenty-two years in one place of business, and can hardly pay my way.
2592. You have grave doubts that he did obtain the property in that way ? I would be very sorry to say
that he came by it dishonestly, but he has no business, and. with only his salary to depend upon, and
having a family of twelve to keep, I do not see how he could become possessed of this property unless
somebody left or gave him the money to purchase it or assisted him — (example) a building society.
2593. How long has he been in the force, do you know ? Twenty years, I believe.
2594. Mr. Abigail.] Do you know whether he does anything on the " totes ?" I cannot say as to that.
2595. Are there any other sergeants or constables in that district who have property to your knowledge?
I do not know.
2596. Senior Constable Adair, for instance ? I do not know.
2597. You do not know of any case ? 1 know Mr. Atwill told m& on an occasion, when I had a conversa-
tion with him, to which I have already alluded, that he had sufficient property now, and that he could clear
from the police at any time.
•2598. He stated that to you personally in conversation ? Yes. I do not remember exactly what led up
to it. I think it was in talking about Mr. Anderson at the time of his retirement. Mr. Anderson was
reputed to be a poor man, and then it was that Mr. Atwill said that he was all right, as he had sufficient
property.
5599. Do you know of any constable or police officer who possesses property besides the two you have
named ? Yes ; there is Mr. Carney, an ex-sergeant of police.
2600. When did he leave the force ? He is in the Government pay yet.
2601. He has a pension ? Yes ; and is in receipt of pay also, as caretaker of the dead-house.
2602. When did he leave the force ? He left when he met with an accident. He broke his leg hunting
after some Chinamen that were supposed to have stolen some tobacco.
2603. Can you not say when he left the force ? No ; I cannot say that.
2604. Can you not give a rough guess ? Well, it may be seven years ago.
2605. Where is the property that ex-sergeant Carney has ? Somewhere on the Rocks, near Argyle-street.
2606. And where is the property which Sergeant Higgins has ? Somewhere about the same place, I believe.
2607. President.] Who told you about Sergeant Higgins buying property ? I cannot remember just at
this moment, or how the conversation arose. I think it was about the time this investigation started, and
some remark was made about how policemen could get rich, and then the remarks was made about
Sergeant Higgins having purchased property, and paid £4,000 for it some time ago.
2608. Do you remember your authority? Mr. Davis, M.P., told me so.
2609. Mr. Hawthorne.] Where did this conversation take place — was it a casual meeting, or did you
meet outside your shop door ? I think it was somewhere about King-street. The police were terribly
annoyed about the remarks which had been made — that is the references to bribery, and I remember
saying that it did not affect those who knew they were not guilty, or that they need not wear the cap
unless it fitted them.
261.0. I suppose the deputation which waited on the Premier on the subject of the Chinese gambling,
discussed this matter ? Yes ; or the neighbours among themselves, such as, " Do you remember this, or
that thing," but no one could give a particular account of it. I may say that the police have charged me
with being a chief mover in this matter, because I have the photographs of the Members for West Sydney
at the door of my shop. In fact, I have become a target for them in consequence.
2611. Did those gentlemen come to give you a sitting as Members of Parliament ? Yes. I may remark
that three and a half years ago I did my best to get rid of this gambling evil, and caused a Bill to be
prepared for submission to Parliament with that object, but as it touched the interest of the landlords I
could not get it through. 2612.
6S
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. H. J.
Maguire.
22Sept.,1891
2612. Do you know Constable Quealy ? Yes.
2613. He used to be on that beat — Lower George-street ? Tes.
2614. Did Constable Quealy have, the opportunity of witnessing the scenes you have described as taking
place in that locality ? Tes ; better I should say, because it was his duty.
2615. Have you ever seen him enter these Chinese gambling-houses ? Yes ; one cannot help it. They
may be seen going in and out every day in the week. _
2G16. It is a common occurrence ? Yes. On one occasion, in conversation with Mr. Higgms, I asked
him what the police went in there for, and he replied, " that they went in there to see what was going on."
I told him then that it was a mere waste of time to go in there if they made no attempt to crush it out, and
they had better not go inside at all.
2617. Do you know, or have you heard anything about ex-Con stable Quealy having a large banking
account, or withdrawing a large sum of money from the bank after retiring from the police ? I did hear
that his brother had left him some few hundred pounds. . .
2618. "When did you hear that— since the Commission was appointed ? No ; it was before the Commission
was appointed.
2619. Are you acquainted with the English, Scottish, and Australian Chartered Bank ? I know the bank.
2620. Is that your bank? Yes.
2621. You know the Manager ? Simply by going in there. _
2622. Have you had any conversation with him as to the amount of money banked by Chinamen ? No.
2623. Mr. Quong Tart.] I see you have taken photographs of certain Chinese houses ; — do you know the
occupier of this one [referring to one of the houses in question] ? That place is next to the Eopemakers'
Arms Hotel.
2624. Do you know the name of the person occupying it ? There are half a dozen occupying it — a sort
of syndicate.
2625. Do you know their names ? No.
2626. There are notices on white paper outside these houses ; — I want you to point out where the fan-tan
is referred to ? That is what I have been informed, it is.
2627. You do not know that it says anything else besides that ? No ; it has been read by several Chinese
for me.
2628. Does it say anything about all transactions only ? I do not know that.
2629. President'!] You know Mr. T. M. Davis, Member of Parliament, representing West Sydney ? Yes.
2630. Do you remember having a conversation with him during the last month or two respecting these
Chinese gambling-houses ? I do.
2631. Did you tell Mr. Davis that a Chinaman, who lived next door to, or in the neighbourhood of, your
house, had complained to you that a policeman used to blackmail him to the extent of a £20 note ? Yes.
2632. Did any Chinaman tell you that ? Yes.
2633. Who was it ? One of the clerks in Way Kee's.
2634. Is he in Way Kee's service now ? No.
2635. Where is he ? I think he is in China.
2636. Now, I want to know, as near as possible, the conversation that took place between you ? I think
the conversation I had with him is all in my evidence. It was to the effect that if old Way Kee were
called there was no doubt a lot of information could be got out of him bearing upon the police, and that
a police sergeant was reported to be blackmailing them for a loan that was never paid. That was after
the deputation, and after the charges were publicly made at the interview with Sir Henry Parkes.
2637. Was that the £20 transaction you have given evidence about before ? Yes.
2638. And that occurred about nine or ten years ago ? Yes.
2639. And the constable in question was Constable Dawson? Yes. I should like to add to some
evidence that I gave a little while since, that when I attempted to get this gambling put down three and
a half years ago, I was told it was quite impossible to get the Bill through, as I proposed, because it
provided that the landlord of the house carried on for gambling purposes should be made responsible if
due notice was given, and no abatement of the offence took place within a certain time thereafter. I may
add that the police generally go to Way Kee to make inquiries as to anything that may be reported to
have been stolen in the line of brass, or anything of that kind. I know a case of a boy whose parents
disowned him on account of his stealing, and Way Kee bought the brass that he stole. There are lots of
things going on there that we cannot see, though we know they exist.
2640. Do you know if Way Kee's grandson was ever charged with receiving stolen brass ? I do not
know that.
2641. Do you know Way Kee's grandson — he lives in the shop ? I do not know which is the son and
which is the grandson.
2642. Do you know if any of Way Kee's men was recently charged with, or convicted of receiving stolen
goods ? I cannot say.
[The witness withdrew.]
Way Shong called and examined : —
Way Shong. 2643. President.] Where do you live? In Lower George-street.
^-~-^— -s 2644. What business do you carry on ? I do nothing ; I am a kind of amateur doctor.
22Sept.^l891. 2645. How many rooms are there in ihe house in which you live ? Two rooms.
2646. And it is situated in Lower George-street ? It is No. 8, in a little street at the back of Lower
George-street — Essex-street, I think.
2647. Were you at Moy Ping's on the night the police visited his place ? No.
2648. Are you quite sure you are telling the truth ? Yes ; I heard that there was a raid made.
2649. Do you know Moy Ping ? Yes.
2650. What business does he carry on ? He has a kind of shop, but what business I do not know. I know
they have a lottery there.
2651. Do you not know that they play fan-tan there very largely? Yes, I know about that.
2652. Do you know how much money Moy Ping sent home as the profits on his business last year ? I do
not know that.
2653. Have you no idea ? No, I do not know. 2654.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
69
2654. What rent do you pay for the house where you live ? I pay 8s. per week. Way ShonS-
2655. From what sources do you derive your income ? I make "my money by attending to the Chinese ^{Z^^^.
who hurt themselves, or who have any malformation. 22 Sept. ,1891.
2656. Have you anyone living with you ? There are some people living on the hack part of the yard.
2657. Are they Chinese ? In my own place there are no others living, but next door there are Englishmen.
2658. Do you know Sergeant Higgins ? No.
2659. How long have you been living in Lower George-street ? A little over a year.
2660. Where were you living before that ? Before that I was living in Harrington-street.
2661. That is in the same direction? Tes.
2662. How long were you living there ? A little over a year also.
2663. How long have you been in Sydney ? Twelve years.
2664. Where did you live when you first came out ? I was on the gold-fields when I first came out —
went up the country.
2665. How long is it since you came from the country ? Three years.
2666. Where did you live when you first came to Sydney, after returning from the gold-fields ? I went
straight across to Melbourne first.
2667. How long were you there ? I lived on Melbourne side for twenty years.
2668. I want to know where you have lived mostly in Sydney for the last twelve years ? In Lower George-
street principally.
2669. Tou were twenty years in Melbourne ? Tes.
2670. I want you to tell me the names of the Chinese societies that exist in Melbourne ? In Melbourne
there is the Hop Pook Tong.
2671. Is that the only one? It is the only one I know of.
2672. Is there a branch of that society in Sydney ? Tes ; every community has one similar.
2673. What are the objects of the society you mention ? It is for taking up dead bones to take home to
China.
2674. Does that society get any contributions from the gaming-houses ? No.
2675. Where do they get their money from ? Each man pays a contribution of 5s., and those who can
afford to pay more do so.
2676. Who is the treasurer ? At one time the money was at my place.
2677. Who is the treasurer now? Since then, I do not know where it is. At that time I was forced to
give over the money in consequence of my business going wrong.
2678. Did you ever pay the police any money in connection with the recovery of the dead bones of your
countrymen ? No.
2679. Do you ever employ the police in the country districts to help you to get the dead bones and
forward them ? No. The permits are obtained here, and the rest is done up country, where the graves
are.
•26S0. Now, I want you to tell me the names of the Chinese societies in Sydney ? The Loon Tee Tong
and the Koon Tee Tong. I only know of those two.
2681. Who is treasurer of the Loon Tee Tong ? The money was kept at my place.
2682. Have you ever paid any money to the police out of that society? No.
2683. Have you ever paid out of the funds of that society any fines that have been inflicted upon your
countrymen at the Police Court ? No ; nothing has ever been paid to the police ; only to poor, and lame,
or sick Chinamen.
2684. Have you got the books of the society ? No ; when I handed over the money of the society to those
people who clamoured for it the books were, all of them, destroyed.
2685. How much money did you then have in hand ? There was £420 odd.
2686. When was that money handed over ? About three years ago.
2687. To whom did you hand it over ? To Way Kee and Tee Sang Toong.
2688. Did the society get much money from the gambling-houses ? Wherever the money came from — it
might have come from the gambling-houses, or it might not — it came in pretty freely.
2689. Did the money come in from the gambling-houses ? I do not know that.
2690. Tou must know ? No ; I could not tell you whom it came from. I was in the store all the
time.
2691. How long were you treasurer ? Por two years.
2692. Do you mean to tell me that, being treasurer of the society, you do not know whom you got the
money from ? I do not know whom it came from. When the money was brought in it would be accom-
panied by the collecting-books, which would have everybody's subscription in.
2693. Who issued the subscription-books ? Pour persons in the society went out with them.
2694. Did you issue any ? The books were not given out by me. The four persons I have mentioned
got the books themselves and went out with them.
2695. Do you not know that some money came from the Goulburn-street stores ? Tes.
2696. And from the proprietors of gaming-houses in Goulburn-street ? Tes.
2697. Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that money came to you from Moy Ping ? Moy Ping is not
of my community — he would not subscribe.
2698. Do you not know that money came into that society from the gambling-houses in Lower George-
street — some of them ? If the gambling-houses were of my own community they would subscribe.
2699. How many gambling-houses are there of your own community in Lower George-street ? Pive or
six, so far as my memory serves me.
2700. What is the name of your community ? The Loon Tee Tong.
2701. If one of your community were taken to the Police Court and fined, would not the society pay the
fine if it had the necessary money ? No ; it is only for poor and sick people.
2702. If there was a warrant out for any Chinese of your community would not you or any member of
your society try to get the warrant cancelled ? No.
2703. Why would you not do that? Each man would look after his own business.
2704. If each man looks after his own business what occasion is there for the society ? The objects are
to provide a fund for sick people, and people who are unable to pay their passages home ; and the other
object I have mentioned. Those are the reasons for its existence.
2705.
70 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OP ETIDENCE.
Way Shong. 2705. Do you know Sergeant Dawson ? No.
r *— ""n 2706. Do you know any policeman at all ? No.
228ept.,1891. 2707. Were you ever taken to the Police Court and charged with any crime whatever? No; and I have
never had a summons in my life.
270S. Have you ever remitted any money to Hong Kong yourself ? Tes ; I have sent home some. I
have heen here a long time.
2709. How much have you sent home ? Over £100.
2710. Have you any money here in the bank ? No ; I have nothing. I am very poor now.
2711. Tou say you do not know any police at all ? No.
2712. Have you been present lately at any meetings of the Chinese societies in Sydney? No ; not now.
On account of my being poor nobody would ask me to go.
271:5. Do you know Way Kee ? Tes.
2711. Was there any meeting at his place lately of Chinese interested in gambling? No; not that I
know.
2715. How many members are there in the Loon Tee Tong ? Over 500.
271(5. Are they sworn to assist each other ? They enter their names in a book, that is all.
2717. Do they make any promise of any kind when they become members ? No ; none.
2718. Do they not promise to shield each other from police prosecutions ? No.
2719. If one Chinaman informs on others, is he not in danger of his life from other members of the
society ? No ; so far as I know, they would not.
2720. Is there not a secret society of Chinese in Sydney, the members of which promise to shield each
other from the police ? No.
2721. There is no secret society of any kind that is opposed to the law ? No.
2722. Do you not know that Chinese coming here to give evidence are in danger of their lives ? I do not
know it.
2723. We have been informed that it is so ; are you surprised to hear that ? I am not frightened.
2721. Is there a branch of this Loon Tee Tong, in Groulburn-street ? There is no Loon Tee Tong now ;
•when it broke up, the money — that £400 I have mentioned — was sent to Hong Kong, to be given to
charities.
2725. Who sent it ? Way Kee and Tee Sang Loong.
2726. Was there none of it distributed here ? No.
2727. How do you know, seeing that you have nothing to do with the society ? It is well known to any-
body that the money was given into good hands to send home. The odd £20 was sent to the hospital.
2728. Of what nature are the charities this money was given to ? It was sent to Hong Kong for the
people there to buy coffins to put on board the boats, so that if any Chinaman died at sea his body would
not be thrown overboard.
2729. Are you sure that none of that money was sent to officers of the police ? Tes ; I know it was not.
2730. Do you know of the police paying visits to the Chinese gambling-houses during the last five years?
Tes.
2731. How often ? A few times I have heard of it.
2732. Can you explain how it is that gambling is carried on openly by your countrymen without their
being molested by the police ? I believe the police themselves have the law in their own hands ; if they
like to stop them I suppose they can, and if they do not like to stop them it is their affair. It is their
work.
2733. Has it occurred to you that the police must have been bribed ? I cannot say. I cannot form any
opinion about it. It is their work, and if anything is given to them I would not know of it.
2734. Is it true that Way Kee has given anything to the police? No.
2735. Is it true that presents of various articles of furniture have been made to the police in Lower
George-street ? No, I do not know of any.
2736. Do you know that one of the police was made a present of a diamond ring ? No.
2737. What other societies are there in Sydney besides the Loon Tee Tong ? I. only know of one other
— the Koon Tee Tong.
2738. Is that a firmly-established society ? Tes, that is a good society.
2739. Are you an officer of that society ? No. •
2740. Mr. Abigail.'] Did you carry on business in Lower Greorge- street with Ah Chong ? Tes.
2741. Trading under the title of Tong Fong? Tes.
2742. What business did you carry on ? English and Chinese goods and Chinese chemists.
2743. How long is it since you started in business in connection with the lottery tickets? I was in
business a little over a year when the lottery started there.
2744. And you were one of the first to take it up ? No ; there was no lottery at my place then.
2745. Did you never have anything to do with the lottery as agent ? No.
2746. Do you understand that if you do not tell the truth here you will go to gaol ? Tes.
2747. What is your position with your own countrymen here and the Europeans — do they respect you ?
I have friends amongst the Chinese, and sometimes, when I am hard up, they will help me ; but English
friends I have none.
2748. Do your countrymen here hold you in high respect ? Tes.
2749. Do they make a confidant of you ? Not so much now as formerly, because I am poor now.
2750. Tou have an intimate knowledge of the way fan-tan is carried on ? Tes ; I have seen it every day.
2751. Can you give us any idea of the extent to which both these systems of gambling are carried on in
the City of Sydney ? Not having much to do with it lately, I cannot give you any idea.
2752. But you can speak as to the past ? Tes ; before it was very great.
2753. Who were the parties that chiefly benefited by the winnings in connection with these gambling-
shops ? Eor a long time I have had nothing to do with gambling, and so cannot tell.
2754. Tou told the President you had never been charged in any way at any of the law Courts ;— do you
not remember an action being taken against you for fraudulent insolvency ? No.
2755. Do you not remember a number of Chinese and Europeans— your creditors— meeting together, and
deciding to take steps of that kind— about four years ago ? Nothing particular was said. They might
have met together, so far as I know.
2756. Were not proceedings instituted ? No. 2757.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
71
2757. Have you heard of any of your countrymen losing large sums of money at gambling ? Tes, I Way Stan©,
have heard of it. ^a^^^am
2758. Have you done, or do you do anything in the way of gambling yourself ? No ; not now. " ep "*
2759. Have you at any time? No; I was a storekeeper before. I have never had anything to do with
gambling.
2760. "What led to your failure in business' — was it not losses in gambling ? No; we lost a lot of money in
•country business. At one store in Junee we lost a large amount of money.
2761. "Was none of it lost in gambling — I want this made Lvery clear ? No ; it had nothing to do with
gambling at all ; only bad debts in the country.
2762. Do you know the syndicates of Chinamen that are running these gambling-dens in Sydney ? Tes.
2763. Have you ever been connected with them? No.
2761. Can you give us the names of any persons connected with them ? I may know some of them, and
I may not know others. I have nothing to do with them now ; and I cannot exactly tell you who they
are, because I have been so long away from them.
2765. Do you remember a row that took place in a Chinese gambling-den, in Campbell-street, some time
ago? No.
2766. Did you not take any part in the Police Court in getting the men out of it ? No ; I had nothing to
do with it.
2767. Do you know Pun Num, of 180, Lower George- street ? Yes ; I have seen the name on the door.
2768. Have you seen notices on white paper posted up outside ? Tes.
2769. Will you look at that [photograph'] and read the characters on it for me ? It says Pun Num first
and on one side a notice about " gambling day and night," and the same on the other side.
2770. You have seen these notices on the fronts of the houses in question ? Tes.
2771. For years past? Tes.
2772. "Will you read the characters on this one [referring to a second photograph] ? It says : " Day and
night, gam bling carried on here — cash business done only" ; or words to that effect.
2773. Do you know that the notices have been in the front of these places for some considerable time, and
that people passing up and down there are bound to see them ? Tes, they have been there a long time
so that everybody could see them.
2774. Have you ever been in the hands of the police ? No.
2775. Do you know anything about the presence and character of European women in the quarter where
you live ? There are very few of them down there.
2776. Do you smoke opium ? No.
2777. Are you personally in favour of the suppression of gambling by the strictest possible means ? My
feelings are like this : As I do not want to have anything to do with it, or say about it.
2778. Are you in favour of gambling is what I want to know ; — as a man you must have some feeling
on the subject, and I want to ascertain your views as to whether you are in favour of gambling, or whether
you would wish to see it abolished or suppressed by rigorous measures, and I must have an answer to the
question ? As I am not a gambler I cannot have anything to say about it one way or the other.
2779. Tou must state distinctly ; — are you in favour of, or opposed to, gambling ? In every country there
is gambling.
2780. That is not an answer to the question. "What are your own views or feelings in reference to it; —
do you think it has a tendency to elevate or demoralise the people who engage in it ? My feelings are this
way : As I have nothing to do with them I would not like to press them down or raise them up.
2781. Could a person run a shop in China with notices put up outside like that on the photograph you
have been looking at ; could a man carry on a business like that with impunity m China for years ?
There are cases like that in China.
2782. Does the law allow it to be carried on openly like that, with notices on the shop front intimating
that gambling is carried on day and night ? They regard it as not of much importance there.
2783. As a matter of fact, is it not one of the chief characteristics of Chinese law that gambling is not
tolerated there ? It is about the same there as here, I think.
2784. Are the people who generally indulge in gambling in your country of a high class — that is to say,
respectable, law-abiding, and so forth ? All classes gamble there, whether high or low, so long as they
have the money.
2785. Are the men who carry on these places here reckoned to be of the best class of Chinese in this
country ? I cannot say what the class are at present, as I have been away from them so long.
2786. Tou decline positively to express an opinion as to whether gambling is good or bad ? If I said it
was good you would not believe me, but I would like to say it is no good.
2787. What age are you ? I am 60 years of age.
2788. Do you believe gambling is a good thing ? I cannot say straight out what my mind is — what
opinion I would like to express.
2789. Do you know what they do to a man in China, who, being in a witness-box, would not answer
questions ? I was never in a Court in China.
2790. Never mind what has taken place before the commencement of this agitation — that is, the deputa-
tion to the Premier, and the appointment of the Commission ; we cannot help the past. What do you think
is best to be done for the future by way of meeting the complaints of Europeans in that neighbourhood ?
As I have said before, I have had nothing to do with gambling, and not being in such good circumstances
as I was, I do not mix up with the people, and I want to have nothing whatever to do with the matter
at all. I cannot say whether it is good or bad. I would rather not express an opinion of any kind.
2791. I suppose you know the Europeans in Lower George-street have been complaining about the
existence of these gambling-shops ? Tes.
2792. And are the places filthy, and so forth, according to the complaints of people in the neighbourhood ?
I have not seen much filth.
2793. It is also said that the Chinese encourage young girls into their places ; — is that true or not? I
have never seen it.
27,94. Mr. Hawthorne.] What business do you engage in in Goulburn-street? It was after I went
insolvent that I went to live in Goulburn-street.
2795. What do you do for a living ? I do nothing at all.
2796.
72 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Way Shong. 2796. If you are enabled to live without doing anything you must have some means put by which you
/~^~^-^^ ought to have given up to your creditors ? When I moved down there a lot of my friends helped me.
22Sept., 1891. 2797. Have you ever practised as a doctor in any way? I used to be a chemist, but I have never
practised as a doctor.
2798. Do you possess any certificate or diploma from China authorising you to act as a chemist ? I have
a paper which entitles me to cure bruised limbs and little surgical operations of that kind.
2799. Do the Chinese visit you when they are afflicted with venereal disease ? No.
2800. Do you never have any patients come to you for treatment who are afflicted with bad disorders?
No ; I cannot cure that.
2801. Do you ever have any European patients ? No.
2802. Tour practice is confined entirely to your own countrymen ? Yes.
2803. Have you any children ? I have one daughter.
2804. Mr. Abigail!] Are you married to a European ? No ; a Chinese lady.
2805. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Have you had any conversation with any of your countrymen regarding your
visit to this Commission to-day ? No.
2806. Have you met and had conversation with individuals who have been previously examined by this
Commission ? No.
2807. What business or employment are you engaged in now? I am simply carrying on that small place
I have told you for anyone who cares to come to me.
2808. But I understand there are very few Chinese afflicted, as you state, with deformed limbs ; — is that
so ? Tes ; but I have got two nephews, they are gardeners, who help me besides.
2809. About those Chinamen who were assaulted some time ago and got broken heads, did they come to
you for treatment ? No.
2810. Have you ever met with any cases of leprosy among your countrymen ? No.
2811. Do you know of any cases of leprosy existing in or around the City of Sydney ? No.
2812. Have you met with any persons among your patients who appeared to exhibit symptoms of leprosy ?
No ; I confine myself to the class of cases I have spoken of.
2813. Mr. McKillop.] How long is it since you went insolvent ? Close on five years.
2814. What have you been doing since then for a living ? I have earned money by curing people. I
can make £50 or £60 a year, and my nephews help me besides.
2815. Did you ever have in your possession any money belonging to the Loon Yee Tong ? Tes.
2816. What amount belonging to that society did you have in your possessiou? £420 odd.
2817. What position did you occupy in that society ? I was treasurer.
2818. When was it that you held that position ? About four years ago.
2819. Did you have any partner with you in connection with that ? I had one partner — Ah Chong.
2820. Why was the money taken out of your hands ? They heard I was going insolvent, and they were
frightened that the money I held in trust would go too.
2821. They had some doubts of your honesty ? Tes.
2822. Where are the books that were in your possession at that time ? There are no books now.
2823. But there were books at one time ; — do you know where they are now ? When I handed over the
money the books were destroyed.
2824. Is it a fact that they were burned ? Tes.
2825. Is it not a fact that they were burned only recently ? No ; at the time the money was handed over ;
they were burned there and then.
2826. Were they burned in your presence? No. After the money was handed over a final meeting was
called, and I was invited to be present, but I did not go, and the books were burned straight away.
2827. Do you know any prominent officers of the society who were at that meeting ? Way Kee was one
who was there.
2828. Was your partner there ? No.
2829. Who else was there besides Way Kee ? There were a number there whose names I do not know.
There was Tiy Turn, and others.
2830. Who were they who asked your firm to be present at the meeting ? The heads of the different
communities.
2831. Can you give any of their names ? I remember particularly that Way Kee was there.
2832. Who were the others — the heads of firms; you were holding the important position of treasurer,
and surely therefore you must know who were the persons that asked you to hand over such a large sum
of money. I want to know the names of the men you have referred to ? I do not know now. Two went
to New Zealand, and there are none of them besides Way Kee in George-street or Goulbum-street now.
2833. Is Tiy Turn in George-street ? No.
2834. Ah Long — where is he ? He is a gardener ; I do not know where he is.
2835. What was the accusation laid against you, when they asked you to hand over this money ? No
accusation. The only reason was that it was known I was going insolvent, and it was thought that this
money belonging to the society would go with the smash, unless it was handed over beforehand.
2836. Is it not a fact that you have been a " tout " for the Chinese gambling-dens in Lower George-street
for the last five years ? No ; I do not go near them.
2837. Is it not a fact that you were one of the parties mixed up in a row that took place (when you were
treasurer) when a man named Ah Chook was severely beaten ? I heard of it.
2838. Is it not a fact that you were there and took part in it ? No ; I had nothing whatever to do with it.
2839. We have certain evidence that you were one of the party. We want to elicit the truth, and if you
do not tell the truth, measures must be taken to compel you. Do you mean to say you "were not mixed
up in that affair ? I was not there.
2840. What do you know of the disturbance that took place on that occasion ? It was over gambling.
2841. Was not the man Ah Chook severely beaten on that occasion ? Tes.
2842. Did you see him after he recovered ? Tes.
2843. Had he any marks about his head ? Tes.
2844. In your opinion were the injuries to his head inflicted by some hard instrument— of iron, for
instance ? I did not look very closely ; I could not tell.
2845. Do you think it was done with" the fist? I could not tell.
2846. However you could see the mark of a severe assault ? Tes. 2847.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 73
2847. Is Ah Chook living in Lower George-street now ? No. Way Shong.
2848. Do you know where he is ? No. ' "^
2840. What was he assaulted for, do you know ? I heard it was in connection with gambling, but I was 22Sept.,1891.
in Narrandera at the time.
2850. What did you hear was the cause of it— why was this man assaulted ? I heard it was for something
he had informed about, against the gamblers.
2851. Tou heard that he was an informer ? Yes.
2852. Whom did he supply the information to ? I do not know.
2853. Do you know of any assault case where a young fellow named Will Riley was assaulted some short
time back ? No.
2854. Do you know of a young man— a Chinaman — who was suffering from leprosy in the neighbourhood
of Lower George- street some short time back? No.
2855. Do you not know, as a positive fact, that the young fellow I refer to had to fly from or left that
portion of the city ? No.
2856. Do you know a Chinaman named To Kum ? I knew one of that name some time ago.
2857. What do you know about him ? I believe he has been in Brisbane this two or three years.
2858. Was he not one of the principal gamblers in Lower George-street ? Oh, no ; that man was not a
gambler. He was a business man. He had Sun Kum On's business in Lower George-street.
2859. Have you not got a mate, or partner, who was connected with you for five years, similar to the one
I have mentioned ? No.
2860. How many rooms are there in the house you occupy ? Two rooms.
2861. How many persons besides yourself live there? Only myself and my wife.
2862. What is the number of the house ? No. 81, Essex-street.
2863. That is off George-street ? Tes.
2864. Are you married to a European or a Chinese ? A Chinese woman.
2865. Have you seen any children — boys or girls — in these gambling-dens in Lower George-street ? No ;
never.
2866. Where do you go or visit during the day ? To Sun Kum Tiy's and other places.
2867. Did you treat Sun Kum Tiy for a deformed limb ? Tes.
2868. Is it not a fact that you have visited Sun Sam Kee's place to play fan-tan ? I never was in there.
2869. Were you ever in a gambling-den playing fan-tan ? No ; I never go in now.
2870. What is the name of your nephew ? Han Tu.
2871. Where is he now ? In Launceston.
2872. When did your nephew last give you money? Two or three weeks ago.
2873. What amount of money did he give you ? ~£o.
2874. How often do you get these remittances ? When I am hard-up I send for it, and my nephew will
send me something.
2875. What rent do you pay for the house you live in ? 8s. a week.
2876. Who is the owner of that house? I cannot remember the landlord's name.
2877. Whom do you pay the rent to ? The landlord comes for it. I have the book at home.
2878. Have you no idea of the man's name at all ? No.
2879. How long have you beeu in the house ? A little over a year.
2880. And you mean to tell the Commission you do not know the name of your landlord ? No ; I do
not know his name. My wife pays the money over.
2881. Do you allow opium to be smoked on your premises? No; there is no opium-smoking there.
2882. Are you in favour of putting a stop to the gambling that is carried on in Lower George-street ? I
cannot say.
2883. Why can you not say ? I cannot say one way or the other. As I am not connected with it I
would not like to give an opinion.
2884. Is it not a fact that you participate in some of the profits that accrue from these gambling-dens ?
No ; I have not any share at all.
2885. Do you not get a benefit from some society for keeping a vigilant eye on the police and others ?
No.
2886. Is it not a fact that a subscription was raised on your behalf some time ago ? No.
2887. Is it not a fact that there was a sum of money collected shortly after you went insolvent? I was
helped by some good friends that 1 did business with before I went insolvent.
2888. Is not Sum Sam Kee a friend of yours? No.
2889. OrMoyPing? No.
2890. Have you no friends among the gamblers ? No.
2891. Do you think it is right to commit murder ? No ; it is no good.
2892. Why ? Everybody knows that.
2893. Is it not right because it is against the law ? Tes ; that is the reason.
2894. Now, if to murder is wrong because it is against the law, is not gambling also wrong, seeing that it
is against the law also ? I will not say whether it is good or bad.
2895. Why will you not say so ? If I were to say it was good, others would say it was bad.
2896. Never mind what others would say ; I want to get it from you ;— is it right or wrong ; yes or no ;
that is what I want you to tell us ? I will not say.
2897. Is it not because you are frightened of injury being done you by a secret society of Chinamen ?
I am not frightened. I have nothing to do with it, and why should I say it?
2898. Tou will have to be committed for contempt unless you answer the questions put to you straight-
forwardly; what is to prevent you giving an expression of opinion as to whether the existence of these
gambling-dens is right or wrong ? I wish to explain that I have nothing to do with gambling, and the
matter is entirely in your hands. It is for the Europeans to say whether it is good or not.
2899. Have you anything to do with murder? No.
2900. Then why do'you express your opinion so freely on that point ? It is well known all over the
world that murder is against the law.
2901. Tes ; and it is well known, also, that gambling is against the law ? Tou would not believe me if I
said it was good or bad. I cannot say.
272— K 2902.
7-1 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — JIISUTES OF ETIDtKCE.
Way Slicing. 2902. Is if, not a fact that you are one of the leading lights in the gambling business that is going on in
•MsTt "lRQi Low(:r George-street— that you are one of the greatest"villains down there ? I have nothing whatever to
•-•_sq>t.,ibJl. do with anybody in Lower George-street. I have kept away from it altogether. I have my opinion, but
I cannot say.
2903. Are you not keeping away because the people who keep these dens will not allow you to go near
them ? That is not it ; only I do not like to go myself.
2904. Is it not a fact that you are an outcast from them ? No ; I am poor, and it is on account of that
I keep away.
2905. Do you know anything about these books [referring to the Chinese account-hooks produced in
evidenced] ; — have you ever seen them before ? This is a Koon Yee Tong book. 1 know nothing about it.
2900. Have you ever seen policemen entering these Chinese gambling-dens ? No.
2907. Did you have a conversation with "Way Kee about this matter ? No.
2908. Was there not a meeting of Chinamen held in Lower George-street one day last week ? No.
2909. Did you not get a summons to be present at a meeting ? No.
2910. How long have you been in Lower George-street? About two years now — after the insolvency.
2911. How many gambling-houses were there in Lower George-street two years ago, to the best of your
knowledge? Over ten.
2912. How many are there now ? About the same.
2913. Do you not know for a positive fact that there are three times ten there now ? In numbers there
might be, perhaps, but, so far as outside appearances go there are only ten that I know of.
2914. "Which is the largest gambling-saloon down there? I do not know.
2915. "What is your idea of the sanitary condition of Lower George-street ? It is pretty clean, so far as
I know.
2916. Is it not a fact that the Chinese have been cleaning and scrubbing their places down there since
this Commission was appointed ? Of course if they are dirty the Town Hall people will fine them. That
is their look-out.
2917. Is it not a fact that they have made their places much cleaner during the last few weeks than they
were before ? Tes.
2918. Do you drink? No.
2919. Do you smoke ? Tes — only tobacco.
2920. Have you ever smoked opium ? Never.
2921. Are you in the habit of going with low-class European women ? No.
2922. Are there any gambling-dens in any other' parts of the city besides Goulburn-street and Lower
George-street ? No.
2923. I suppose you have never left George-street much since you went to live in that locality ? No.
About two or three times a year 1 may leave my own place to go up town, but I mostly keep on my own
premises.
2924. Mr. Abigail.'] Do you know a Chinaman named Goldtown ? Yes.
2925. "What do you know of him ? "When he first came out I was introduced to him, and we bad conver-
sations together occasionally, but I have not seen him lately.
292G. Do you know where he lives ? No ; he is not of my community.
2927. Mr. McKillop.~] Is Yo Kum in Brisbane now ? Yes.
2928. How long has he been there ? Two or three years.
2929. "Who is your partner now ? I have no partner now. In a few months more I shall go home with
my wife.
2930. How much money have you got in the bank ? I have none now, but my friends are going to send
me home.
2931. Have you not a certain sum of money in the bank in Lower George-street ? No.
2932. Mr. Hawthorne.] Is your daughter a grown woman ? No ; she is 3 years of age — a little girl.
2933. How long have you been married ? Five years.
2934. Did you marry here or in China? I have one wife in China and one here.
2935. "Where did you get the wife you have here ? She came from China.
2936. Did you send her money to come out ? The reason is the old wife sent this one out, so that I
might have children. That is the usual custom in China.
2937. It is the custom in China, where one wife is barren, for her to send another wife to her husband,
to enable him to get children ? Yes ; that is the custom.
2938. Have you ever dealt in brass, or old metal, or anything of that kind ? No.
2939. Do you not sometimes go out collecting — picking up such things wherever you can lay your hands
on them ? No.
2940. "Where do you purchase all your medicines ? Send to China for them.
2941. Any large orders? Nearly £1,000 worth used to come out through my hands to be distributed here.
2942. But now — do you send large orders home ? No. That large amount I have spoken of was
while I was in business before my insolvency. Now I get it from the local Chinamen — Chinese
merchants.
2943. Do you buy in large quantities ? No ; about £10 or £11 worth in the year.
2944. Do you keep it on the premises ? No ; 1 buy as I want it.
2945. Do you remember the occasion when this Commission paid a visit to the Chinese premises in Lower
George-street one night two or three weeks ago ? I heard of it.
2946. "Were you not there the night we went round ? No.
2947. "Where were you that night ? I was at Sum Kum Tiy's.
2948. Did you hear of the intended visit previous to our going round ? No ; I never heard of it.
2949. "Was there not some talk at Sum Kum Tiy's about the time this visit was to be paid ? No ; I did
not know anything about it until it was over.
2950. Did you hear afterwards that anyone spread the news about that the Commission was going there
on a visit of inspection ? Yes ; I heard it afterwards.
2951. You heard afterwards that people had spread it about ? Yes.
2952. Do you know who it was that told it to the Chinese residents — did you hear who it was ? I heaisd
that some European people told them.
2953. Is it not a fact that it was the police who told them ? I do not know.
2954.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EYIDENCE.
75
2954. Do you know of the Europeans who you say told the news ; do you know any of tliem by name ? Way s"ong.
No ; but I suppose some Europeans told some Chinamen, and other Chinamen told me. ooa^+^Tsfli
2955. Did you have a conversation with any Chinamen last night? No. -Ubept. , isji.
2956. Since you were summoned to come here, did you have a conversation with any Chinaman as to the
evidence you would give here ? No ; none whatever.
2957. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Have ever you heard of any policeman receiving bribes from Chinamen? No.
2958. Do you know any of the police by name ? No ; I cannot speak to them.
2959. "What is the busiest time of these gambling- houses ? It goes on day and night.
2960. Any particular day in the week ? No ; I have heard lately that it is very quiet ; not much doing
at all.
2961. Mr. McKillop.] Have you had any conversation with the police at all at any time ? No.
2962. Is it your intention, when you leave here, to discuss with your countrymen the evidence you have
given to-day ? No ; that is my private business ; I shall not say anything. '
2963. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Did you show the notice you got from the Secretary of this Commission to any
of your countrymen ? No.
THURSDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
present:—
The Mayor of Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
ERANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbesident.
EAMSAY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. Benjamin Dawson called and examined : —
2964. Mr. McKillop.] Are you in business in Lower George-street, Mr. Dawson ? Yes, at 170, Lower Mr.
George- street. I carry on a fruit and vegetable business, and supply all the men-of-war. B. Dawson.
2965. Are you a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Yes. f """""^
2966. Were you one of those composing the deputation to tbe Premier ? No. 24 Sept., 1891.
2967. Do you hold any office in connection with the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? No, I was merely
a member of it.
2968. Do you know how many gambling-dens there are in Lower George-street? I took the numbers
of some of them this morning.
2969. I do not want you to give the exact number necessarily ; tell us roughly, approximately ?
There are about thirty or thirty-two that I know.
2970. Do you know personally any of the police down in Lower George-street ? I know Inspector
Atwill and Sergeant Maguire ; they are the only members of the force I know by name, but I know
others by sight.
2971. You remember the visit of this Commission to the lower end o£ George-street one night? Yes.
2972. Did you hear anything of that visit previous to it taking place ? Yes.
2973. Were you at home that night? No ; I think it was the day before, or two or three days before — I
will not swear which. I was going up the street, and entering Eelton and Nock's shop, I said, " I wonder
what the Chinamen are scrubbing and clearing their premises for ?" and Eelton said to me that he had
sold more scrubbing-brushes during the last fortnight than he had sold since he had been down there. He
also said in reply to my remark, " the Commissioners are coming down, and they are getting their places
clean — that is all I know."
2974. Did you have a conversation with any of the police officers ? No, not on that subject.
2975. Have you seen Mr. Inspector Atwill lately? On the 11 th September; it was a Eriday ; he came
to my place.
2976. Will you kindly inform the Commission of the nature of the conversation that took place between
you and Mr. Atwill on that occasion ? On the Eriday afternoon I have mentioned I was sitting in the
room at the back of my shop. Inspector Atwill came into the shop and asked my wife if I was in. She
said, " Yes, he is in the room ; you can go in and see him." Inspector Atwill then came into the room.
" Well, Dawson, how are you," said he to me, and I replied, " All right, Mr. Atwill." He then said,
" Have you been before the Commission yet ?" and I replied, " No, I have not." " I hear," said he, " that
there is some talk of females being insulted by the Chinese up and down George-street, but there is not a
word of truth in it." I said to him, " Do not tell me that, Mr. Atwill, because I know of females being:
insulted myself." He said, " Dawson, you do not know of one." I said, " Thank you, Mr. Atwill," and.
I then called out to my wife, who was doing the shop window. When she came in I said, "Do you
remember the lady who came to the shop the other day about a letter ?" " Yes, said my wife, " we
advised her to go to the other fruit-shop, near Bridge-street, suggesting it might be there; and she said,
she did not like going because she was frightened of being insulted by the Chinamen." I told the lady
I would escort her and bring her back again. At this Mr. Atwill said, " I was not aware that there was
anything of that kind." I replied, "That is one case, and I could tell you more, but you have doubted
my veracity, and I will not tell you now." He pressed me again, and said, " Tell me, Mr. Dawson."
I, said. " .No, I will cot tell you one, but you can go and get the information yourself. The chemist's
wife has also been insulted, and you can get the information for yourself there." I then thanked him
for making the raid, but I said, " You must have some traitors in your camp." " Why?" " Because your
business was known. A Chinaman from 181, across the road, came into my shop the afternoon of the day
they made the raid." I said, " Well, Jimmy, plenty of money to-night — plenty fan-tan ;" and he said,
"No fan-tan to-night ; the police are coming around."
2977. This was all in your conversation with Inspector Atwill ? Yes ; and I said to him also, " Some
of your subordinates must have given that information, Mr. Atwill, and it was not given for nothing.
That was the full extent of the conversation I had with Mr. Atwill, excepting that he said to me — and I
had forgotten this for the moment — he said to me, " Mr. Dawson, why do you stop down here ; why do
you not go to some other part of the town ?" and I replied, " Mr. Atwill, you know I have to be handy for
the steamers, and the stewards coming in the morning ; but for that I would not stay here one hour." I
also told him that my business had fallen off a great deal since the last row of shops was built next to
Eelton and Nocks. " 2978.
76 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINfTES OF ETIDENCE.
Mr. 2978. Mr. Hawthorne.] Is that because they were better looking shops ? No; it was on account of the
P.. Dawson. occupants
94 q . 1Sq, 2970. They are occupied by Chinese ? Yes.
'''' 2980. Mr. Mc Kill op.] Who occupied them when they were old buildings— before they were renewed?
The old buildings were pulled down when I came to Sydney, and others erected in their places.
2981. The land was vacant, and these buildings were built on it ? Yes.
2982. And since they were built they have all been occupied by Chinese? Yes.
2983. And you say your business has suffered materially inconsequence? Undoubtedly. The people
will not pass that way ; they go down Bridge-street or Hunter-street into Pitt-street in preference. After
half-past 7 o'clock in the morning all my business is done with the men-of-war.
2981. Do you do any trade with the Chinese ? If they are doing well they are not bad customers.
2985. So that it would be to your interest for them to do a good trade in the fan-tan business ? No. I
would lose it in another way ; for the Chinamen make rows when they come in the shop. My business
is chiefly outside among the shipping.
2986. Who attends to your shop ? My wife and the girl.
2987. Then you do not do much trade with the Chinese ? No ; only with a few. We have plenty of
rows there — they want to pick the fruit about, and we will not let them.
2988. You object to them on account of their peculiarities of dealing ? Yes.
2989. The conversation you have related as having taken place between yourself and Mr. Atwill ; — did
that represent the sum total of the conversation you had with him on that occasion, the 11th September?
Yes.
2990. He did not say anything to you about charges laid against the police ? No.
2991. On any other occasion, did he make any remarks to you? I met him a week ago. Mr. Maguire
was going up to give evidence for the first time. I was coming up from the boats, and met Mr. Atwill
close by Heading's. He said, " How do you do, Dawson ; I hear Maguire was up giving evidence before
the Commission to-day. I suppose you will put the poor police away." I said, " If the police have done
nothing wrong, Mr. Atwill, they have no reason to fear."
2992. Mr. Hawthorne. ] What did Mr. Atwill say when you remarked that if the police had done nothing
wrong they had no reason to fear ? He said, " I thought they were trying to put the police away."
2993. Didhe make no other reply than that ? No. I met him casually. This was just opposite Read-
ing's, the bootmaker's.
2994. And that terminated the conversation? Yes.
2995. Have you had any other conversation with Inspector Atwill since this investigation started ?
No, only what I have said.
2996. Did Inspector Atwill come direct to your house to have the first conversation which you have
narrated ? Yes. I have a room inside, and he came into the room, as I have said, and remained twenty
or thirty minutes in the room. He was never in there before.
2997. When he came in, did he tell you the object of his visit ? When he first came in he asked me if I
had been before the Commission yet. I said, " No, but 1 expect I will have to go." He then said that there
had been an accusation of females being insulted, but that it was wrong, and nothing of the kind had
occurred.
2998. Did he say who had made the accusation ? No, he did not say anything to me about anyone having
made any accusation.
2999. Did he make reference to anyone who had given evidence before the Commission ? No. It was
then I told him not to come and tell me that, as I knew females who had been insulted.
3000. Did you have a conversation at any time with Sergeant Maguire ? Yes ; I happened to be out
with Sergeant Maguire one Sunday, seeking for a man to give him into custody. We went Miller's
Point way.
3001. How long ago was this ? Six weeks ago. I was walking round with him to pick the man out. He
said to me, " Are you going on with that Anti-Chinese Gambling League." I replied, " We will do our
level best," and I then told him the police must have some traitors in their camp from what the man from
No. 181, told me in the afternoon of the day when the raid was made. He (Maguire) said, " Well,
Dawson, it looks very suspicious, and I wish I knew who it was."
3002. Was that all that passed between you and him ? Yes.
3003. Do you know Constable Beadman ? No.
3004. Or Constable Carson ? No ; I do not know them by name.
3005. Do you know anything about any presents being made to the police ? No.
3006. Not of your own knowledge ? No ; only from hearsay, and I did not come here to tell you that.
3007. Are there any gambling-dens close to your shop ? Yes ; I put the numbers down this morning.
The numbers of these shops are, 152, 164, 166, 174J — that is the one that has not had the shutters down
for eighteen months ; 178, 180 — they are above and below me, on the left-hand side going up George-
street ; 173 — that is nearly opposite my place, across the road ; 179, which always has the shutters up ;
and 181, that is where 1 got the information from about the police going round. I may tell you about
this shop 179, that when 1 have been sitting outside my shop, occasionally I have seen young girls from
18 to 20 years of age, apparently standing on the footpath, and watching the Chinamen's place
opposite. Then they would go across and enter this No. 179.
3008. Would they go into the private portion of the house? I have seen them go in.
3009. Did these young women bear a respectable appearance, or were they girls of the lower class ? They
appeared to be very respectable in appearance. I should be very sorry to put a question to them if I was
looking for a woman for an immoral purpose. They appeared to be respectably dressed, lady-like young
women.
3010. What do you think was the object of these young women in visiting that house ? For an immoral
purpose I should say, because as I have told you I have seen them as long as twenty minutes waiting
outside before they would go in.
3011. Have you ever endeavoured to find out who they were ? No ; they are complete strangers to me,
and going about as I do among the men-of-war I know a lot of loose characters by sight.
3012. Then in your opinion they are not of the low class of women? No; I should say not, certainly.
And yet, as I have said, I have seen them standing on the footpath perhaps for twenty minutes at a
time.
77
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ' '
time. Then one or two Chinamen would come across, and have some conversation with them ; at times *tr-
they would put their hands in their pockets and give them something, and then they wrouldgo away again. 1^^^~J
3013. Have you seen this occur repeatedly ? 'Yes; sometimes they would come two at a time; some- 24 Sept. 1891.
times as many as four.
3014. They always come in company ? Yes ; sometimes two, and sometimes four, but I have never seen
less than two at once.
3015. Mr. McKillop.'] Tou have said that you told Mr. Atwill that you knew several females who
had been insulted by Chinese in Lower George-street; — can you mention any particular cases? Tes; on
more than one occasion I have escorted the chief stewardess and the second stewardess of the P. & O.
steamer " Oceana," to prevent their being insulted by the Chinamen.
3016. Can you name any other ladies you have escorted ? Yes ; I accompanied a servant girl one evening —
I do not know her name, but my wife does, and I could get it for you.
3017. Will you kindly forward the name of this person to the secretary ? I will.
3018. Did the young woman you have mentioned ask you to accompany her? Yes. She said, "Mr.
Dawson, will you go with me as far as Bridge-street, past the Chinamen's shops."
3019. Was this in the day-time? It was about half-past 7 o'clock in the evening.
3020. What rent do you pay for your premises ? 1 pay £2 12s. 6d. a week.
3021. How many rooms have you ? Two rooms downstairs, and a kitchen and cellar and bed-room.
3022. Three rooms and a cellar ? Yes ; and a little room I have at the back of the shop.
3023. Who is the owner of the premises ? Mr. Tucker, the butcher, leases them, and I rent from him.
3024. Have you ever had a sum of money offered you to vacate your premises? No; but I have had
money offered me if I would go and take a shop from Kelso King, manager of an Insurance Company.
It used to be a room belonging to the " Eopemaker's Arms Hotel," but it is taken away now. A
Chinaman offered me £1 a week over and above the rent if I would take it and sub-let to him.
3025. What was the rent ? 35s. a week.
3026. Then he would have given you £2 15s. a week ? Yes.
3027. Were any other offers made to you of a similar nature ? No. There is another little shop adjoining
that again— that is 174 j — which has not had the shutters down for eighteen months, which rents for
£4 10s. a week, and the rates and taxes. I will tell you how I know this. Two years ago one of the
Chinamen who was in the place came to me and asked me if I would go with him to Kelso King to see if
he could get the water rates deducted. I went with him, and there was eome conversation about it. The
result was that Kelso King said he would have to pay the rates and taxes, as well as the rent, every week.
That is how I came to know the particulars of it.
3028. Is gambling carried on to the same extent down in Lower George-street as it was before the
Commission was appointed ? They have been pretty timid lately. But last Saturday, about 8 o'clock, as
I was walking up to the corner of Bridge-street and back again slowly, I noticed the very place the raid
was made upon last time, crowded with Europeans. I noticed other shops in that immediate neighbour-
hood crowded.
3029. Have you noticed any young children going into these gambling-houses — boys and girls ? No.
3030. Have you ever been in any of these gambling-dens yourself, not to play but to look on ? No ; I
have never been inside their doors.
3031. Is there a great deal of opium-smoking carried on down there ? Yes. In this house, No.
1741 for instance ; if you pass it in the morning sometimes it is enough to knock you down.
3032. The smell was abominable ? Yes.
3033. Have you noticed policemen going in and out of these places ? Yes ; many a time.
3034. In uniform ? Yes.
3035. Do you know ex-constable Quealy ? No, not personally.
3036. Mr. Abigail.'] Will you take these photographs in your hand, please ; they represent houses kept
by Chinese in Lower George-street ; — do you notice the white papers in front of those places ? Yes.
3037. Do you know the meaning of the characters on the papers referred to ? I have heard what it is.
3038. What have you heard that it is ? I have heard that the interpretation of the notices on the white
paper is " Fan-tan and pak-ah-pu played all day and night here."
3039. That announcement is on a large number of stores in Lower George-street ? Yes ; I saw Maguire
with his machine taking these photographs last Saturday.
3040. I suppose you understand that the Commission have to find out, if possible, something about the
charges of bribery that have been laid against the police ? Yes.
3041. Can you furnish the Commission with any information on that point ? Not personally ; but — and
I assume that what I state here is not going to the world — I know a young man who has said that he
knew of bribes being given to Sergeant Maguire. This is not stated on my authority, you understand. I
was out last night and the night before trying to find out the man to get his sanction to send the name
to you. I will try to get him this week, and let you have the name and address.
3042. The Commission will be very glad, if you will do that, Mr. Dawson ? Yes ; I will do it. The
young man was rather backward, I believe, for this reason, that he did not want to implicate his mother,
who had seen the bribes as well. In what form it was given I do not know.
3043. Mr. Quong Tart.] Have you any respectable Chinese merchants down your way ? Yes.
3044. Do you know if any gambling is carried on in the houses of the respectable Chinese merchants ?
No ; it is only in these places where you see the white paper up — in these gambling-hells.
3045. You say you had a conversation with Inspector Atwill on the 11th September ? Yes.
3046. What hour of the day was that ? Between 2 and 3 o'clock.
3047. Was any one else present besides yourselves ? My wife heard part of the conversation in the
shop, and the girl was there as well.
3048. Do you often hear of any rows in the Chinese quarters down there ? Yes, there are plenty of
rows — in No. 181, for instance, I often see rows there.
3049. What is the cause of these rows ? Just the gambling that goes on inside, and when the rows occur
you will see big crowds come out.
3050. Who keeps that house ? I do not know what his name is ; they change their names so often.
3051. Which is the biggest gambling-shop down there? Sun Sam Kee does plenty; his shop is No. 173.
3052. Do you consider his the biggest gambling-shop ? I have seen as many as fifty or sixty there of a
Sunday. 3053.
78
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 3053. Many Europeans ? Tes ; all Europeans.
B-^"°n- 3054. Do Europeans or Chinamen mostly frequent these places, so far as you have observed ? Mostly
2*8 nt i«qi Europeans.
p •' ' 3055. What percentage do the Europeans bear to the Chinese ? At least 5 to 1, 1 should say.
3056. At what hour of the day do these rows generally take place ? In the day-time, so far as I know.
I go to bed at about half-past 9 o'clock, and sleep at the back of the premises, so that I could not hear
the rows then.
3057. Tou think most of the rows arise through the gambling ? Tes.
3058. Do any of the Chinese places carry on immoral traffic down there ? Tes. In 179, girls go there.
They seem very respectable too.
3059. Do you know any other part besides Lower George-street? No. When I came from New Zealand
to Xew South "Wales I took a shop in Lower George-street, and I do not know much about any other
part of Sydney.
3060. Can you offer any opinion as to the best method to adopt to put down this gambling evil? The
only thing I can suggest is that, if the present law is considered powerless to cope with it, a short Act
should be passed to provide for imprisonment for breaches of the law, without the option of a fine.
3061. Do you think the present law is sufficient to meet the case ? Tes ; I think it is, if they would
only put it in force. I think neither the police nor the Magistrates go far enough.
3062. In what way do you think the Magistrates are to blame ? In not making the punishment severe
enough. In Victoria, I understand, when they take a man up, they do not give him the option, of a
fine — they imprison him.
3063. Do you know anything about the law in Victoria ? That is what I have read in the papers.
3064. Under the Victorian law there is no option, you say? I do not know exactly whether it is optional
to fine or imprison ; but I know, as a rule, they give the croupier or banker six months' imprisonment
without the option.
8065. At all events, you think the Magistrates are not severe enough here ? Tes. I would inflict
imprisonment instead of fining offenders for this class of offence. With regard to the evidence I gave as
to my conversation with Inspector Atwill, I wish to add something that did not occur to me at the time I
was telling you of my interview with that gentleman. I thanked Mr. Atwill for making the raid. " But,"
I said, "it is very strange that, although you have the same law now as you have had ever since I came
here, you have not made a raid before, for at least two years and nine months to my knowledge." Mr.
Atwill replied to this, " Look where the police have been, and what they have had to do. Look at the-
late strike, and the trouble with the shearers." I said, " Go and tell that to the Norwegians, Mr. Atwill..
Tou had not the strike during the whole of the time I have mentioned, and yet you have allowed all that,
time to go without making a raid."
3066. Mr. McKillop.] Was that all that took place ? Tes.
3067. Mr. Quong Tart.] Have you noticed policemen in these gambling-houses ? Tes ; while the
gambling has been going on.
3068. Do they gamble themselves ? I cannot say that ; I have never been inside.
3069. Do you know the names of the policemen you have just mentioned as having visited these gambling-
houses ? I do not know them by name, but I have seen them going in.
3070. Are they doing duty on that beat now ? I will not be certain, but I should know them again if
I saw them.
3071. Will you inform the Commission of the name of the person who, you have told us, saw the police
bribed ? I am trying to do my level best to get the information.
3072. Do you think you could supply it by this evening ? No. I went to Davies' place last night to see
if I could come across him. He was not there ; but I will try again to-night.
3073. And will you forward the information as soon as you can ? Tes ; as soon as I get it I will let you
, know, I am anxious to have the matter thoroughly investigated as well as the Commission.
3074. Mr. Quong Tart.] Tou have enumerated ten of these Chinese gambling-dens ; — have you been in
any of them ? No ; I have never been in one in my life.
3075. Then how can you tell they carry on gambling there for certain ? Because I see them going
in and coming out with lottery-tickets.
3076. Did you know what these papers stated on the photographs taken by Mr. Maguire previous to his
taking them ? No.
3077. Then you could pass- up and down the premises without knowing that they were gambling-houses ?
Tes.
3078. Can you tell me what this is \Jianding the witness a Chinese ticket] ? No ; I cannot read Chinese.
3079. Have you seen the people coming out of these houses with tickets similar to that ? I have seen
them coming out with square pieces of paper in their hands. There is now a box nailed against the wall
of No. 173, with two letters in Chinese on each side and in the middle, " Please put all paper in this box
with Chinese writing on." That box was stuck up there to-day.
3080. Are you sure that it is not a post-office ? Tes ; you can go and see it for yourself.
3081. So you do not know a pak-ah-pu ticket to recognise it? No; I only know that it is a square
piece of paper with writing on. I have seen a Chinaman called " Old Jimmy," who lives at 166, come
out of the shop and get the girls to mark the paper for him, so that it would bring him luck.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. Edward Robert Bowker called and examined : —
E.E,. Bo'wkcr. 3082. Mr. Abigail?^ What business do you follow ? I am a carpenter.
,—^j^^-^ 3083. Where do you live ? At No. 71, Princes-street.
24 Sept., 1891. 3084. I believe you have a pretty intimate knowledge of some of the Chinese gambling -houses in Lower
George-street ? I have p^yed there myself.
3085. In any number of them ? Tes ; the best part of them.
3056. What games have you played ? Both fan-tan and the tickets.
3057. Have you been very successful in your operations ? Well, so far as that goes, I do not know any
man who could answer you that question. It is give and take. Tou may win to-day, and lose three
times as much to-morrow. I have had some good wins. 3088.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 79
3088. Have you seen large numbers of Chinese and Europeans there ? Yes ; it is well known. ^r-
3089. Have you ever seen any of the police in those gambling-houses ? "Well, I have seen them inside, EK»Bowker-
but never to hack anything. 24S^tTl8»l
•3090. Tou have seen them inside while gambling has been going on ? No ; not in the fan-tan room. I e "'
h ave seen them in the front-shop, but no farther.
3091. "While gambling was on ? Tes, but they may have been ignorant that it was going on.
3092. Have you heard anything about charges of bribery against the police? Tes; a lot; but I never
witnessed it, and I cannot see how it can be done.
3093. Tou have no personal knowledge that will sustain a charge of any member of the police force having
received a bribe of jewelry ? No ; but I can say this much, that if I saw it with my own eyes I would
■only be too glad to say so.
3094. Tou have no information at all that will sustain a charge of that character against the police ? No.
If I could I would, because if it lay in their power they would be only too glad to do it to me. I would
like to see these places stamped out.
3095. Tou have been a sufferer by them ? Tes ; but the temptation has been too strong for me.
3096. It has been a kind of infatuation ? Tes ; that is the fact. I have made up my mind fifty times,
but cannot get away from it, and it has swallowed every penny I have earned.
3097. Do you know if the same feeling has taken possession of other Europeans? Certainly. It is worse
than drink. I do not drink myself, but I see a lot of it, and say it is worse than drink.
3098. Then, although you have been engaged in gambling to a large extent, you would be glad to see
some law passed that would put a stop to it? I would, heart and soul. I have known men who have
pawned their things to gamble away, and not only what belonged to themselves, but the things belonging
to their wives, and the money has gone the same way.
3099. As a matter of fact, these Chinese gambling-dens demoralise and impoverish a great number of
people ? Certainly it does.
3100. Are these places visited largely by Europeans ? Tes ; if they did not go there the Chinamen
would' have to go elsewhere to get a living.
3101. Have you seen young women attending these places? No ; with the exception of two that are sup-
posed to be married. One of them had a child, and a Chinaman was evidently the father of it.
3102. Have you seen youths about those places ? Tes ; scores of them. That is the wrong end of the
town to look for women.
3103. Where would be the quarter — Groulburn-street ? Tes. I do think fan-tan and the ticket
game are the ruination of half the people. Tou should look into the vice of prostitution.
3104. Is that carried on to a large extent? I should say so.
3105. "What leads you to that belief ? Because I see it with my own eyes ; not that I follow it up.
3106. Is Cambridge-street and other streets fairly inhabited by Chinamen and prostitutes?
3107. Are these the places where the gambling-house keepers have their women ? No, but it is where
they live. They bring the coin and spend it among these women. I could give you a lot of information
about the Chinamen ; I have been playing there for nine years, heart and soul.
3108. Have you lost a considerable amount of money ? I had a couple of good wins — one £42 and
another for which I got somewhere about £24 ; but what does it amount to?
31G9. What do you estimate your losses at ? That I cannot tell you. Tou might as well ask me how
much I sweat from the hand.
3110. But you have no doubt your losses exceed your gains ? Tes, very much ; but, as I have said, the
temptation has been too strong for me. Lately I have not done much at it, but I do not know when I
misrht be tempted to begin again, as bad as ever.
3111. Did you know of the raid that was made on one of these Chinese dens by the police lately? Tes ;
the last raid that was made on the Chinamen. The papers rang with it and gave the police great credit,
but I do not see where the credit came in any way. I think it was most cowardly.
3112. In what manner was it cowardly? Well, most of the men there who were caught had never
played the game before. They went there casually perhaps, or they might have had a ticket.
3113. Tou think they went there merely to look on? Tes ; and yet they were fined the same as those
who played the game.
3114. Were you ever present on any occasion where an alarm occurred in one of these houses, and a
scramble took place for the money on the table ? No ; I have known of such things, but have had the
luck to get out just before it took place.
3115. Have you never seen a scramble take place in one of these houses ? Tes ; but not by the police.
3116. By others ? Tes, but that is a good bit ago.
3117. What gave rise to that ? Well, there is a lot down there that the police should never interfere with,
although they ought to be taken notice of. They neither work regularly or do anything ; in fact I do
not believe they could work. They live on the game, and if there is a chance at all for coin to be made
then if they can plunder they will.
3118. President.'} Are these Chinese or Europeans you are referring to ? Europeans ; and they ought
to be looked to. I read an account in the Sunday Times or Truth, where certain names were mentioned
in this connection ; I do not know where they got the names from ; I heard that the reporters gave some
of the Europeans so much for the information.
3119. Mr. Abigail.} Tou have seen these white paper notices written in Chinese and pasted outside these
gambling-houses ? Tes, plenty of them.
3120. Do you know the effect of those notices in English ? Tes — it says " Ean-tan to-night."
3121. And the police passing up and down the street in front of these houses can see that as well as any-
body else, I suppose? I cannot say that ; they might be ignorant of it.
3122. They could see the notices ? Certainly.
3123. Mr. Hawthorne.'] How did you become aware of what is written on the white paper ? I got my
information from the Chinamen.
3124. Mr. Abigail.} How long have you known that ? A couple of years ago.
3125. Then, of course, the police, if they had made inquiry, could have obtained the information as well
as yourself? Certainly.
3126. Do yon know if there is any difficulty in gaining admission to these places ? No ; you walk straight
in without anv trouble. I have always done so.
J 3127.
80 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
M*- 3127. Do you think a plain-clothes constable would find any difficulty in gaining admission ? What is to
E-B-Bowker- stop them?
2AfT~t^m-\ 3^28. At all events, you have never been stopped ? No ; it has been much more the other way.
p ' 3129. That is to say, you have been invited to go in? Tes ; hundreds of times. I can give you any
information you want about that. They have not only ruined me but hundreds besides me. It is bad
enough for single men, but many of them I know are married. I know a man who told me that he sold
his horse and van for £26, and knocked that down there.
3130. Tour knowledge of these matters, I understand, is confined almost exclusively to Lower George-
street ? Tcs ; I live down there, and am more connected that way.
3131. Have you heard anything about respectable women being insulted by the Chinese when passing up
and down Lower G-eorge-street ? No ; I know nothing about that.
3132. Do you know anything about the sanitary condition of these places ; — are they clean and wholesome,
or are they kept in a dirty state, so that offensive smells arise from them ? Tes ; some of them are fairly
clean, and some the other way.
3133. Are those that are clean the gambling-dens or the places occupied by respectable Chinese
merchants ? Oh, they are out of it altogether— the respectable Chinese. They carry on legitimate
business.
3134. They are fairly clean then ? Tes ; they are all right.
3135. Do you know the name of any person who could give this Commission, with regard to the alleged
bribery of the police, any evidence of a direct or practical character ? To tell you the truth I do not
believe you will get it. It stands to reason. If I am a policeman, and am going to get anything in the
shape of a bribe, would I wait until there was somebody else in the room to see that I got it — no.
3136. Do you believe it is done ? Tes ; but it is a difficult thing to prove.
3137. Do you think it possible for a policeman to be on that beat for a considerable time without
becoming aware that gambling is carried on in these places ? No ; unless he is drunk all the time.
3138. Do you think it is possible for the inspector of the district to be unaware of the fact ? No ; how
could it be possible, when the police come in and turn the people out times out of number.
3139. Do you think that the difficulty of obtaining admission to these places while gambling is going on,
is of such a nature as to make it almost impossible to obtain a conviction ? I do not.
3140. Tou think they could easily obtain admission if they desired to ? They can if they like. It is the
way they go about it. Whenever these raids are made the players know all about it beforehand, as well
as the police, and the question is, where do they get their knowledge.
3141. They, some of them, become aware of the intended raid ? Tes ; on the night when the last raid was
made, they were told to shut up at 8 o'clock, as .the police were coming down on them ; but the Chinaman
was so determined to get the money — he wanted to grab it — that he would not be advised by what I heard.
3142. If he had acted on the advice given the raid would not have been successful? No; the police
would have gone into an empty house.
3143. Do you know who gave the information ? That is the thing. The way it is done is this : I know
a few of the police myself, and if they knew I was playing in there I believe they would tell me in
a minute.
3144. They would give you warning not to be present ? I think so.
3145. Mr. McKillop.'} Have they ever done so to you ? No ; not to me. I have worked my way on the
quiet.
3146. But you believe they have done so to others ? Tes ; I have heard it ; but I cannot prove it.
3147. Mr. Kawthome.~\ Have the police ever given you secret information which ought not to be given ?
No ; but I have heard it spoken of in shops, as having been given to others.
3148. Have you heard of the police ever telling anyone not to go to these shops when a raid was con-
templated ? No.
3149. Have ever you heard anything that would lead you to believe that there was truth in the statement
that the police have received bribes from Chinamen ? No ; I have only had it by word of mouth from
another man, and I could not contradict him ; I would take his word the same as you would take mine.
3150. Do you know any of the police to speak to ? I know a few of the old hands ; I know Higgins
and Hughey Adair, and Kearney.
3151. Have you had a chat with any of them since the Commission started ? No ; in fact I was not
coming here, only I was told that I would be subpoenaed.
3152. Why, is not this an important public question ? Tes ; I thought of that, and that made me come.
3153. Are you a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? No.
3154. The Commission are anxious to get some reliable information in respect to this police question.
Can you furnish evidence of any kind in that direction. We expect you will regard it to be your duty,
as a member of the community, with others, to do anything you can to suppress this evil, which you
admit has been an injury to you ? Tes ; I understand that, and I would do anything I could to stop it ;
but I think you need not trouble much more about it. If you wait until you get any information about
the police you will wait a long time. They are too cunning ; they are as cunning as the Chinamen them-
selves, and more so.
3155. Have you ever heard any of the police speak of Lower George-street as being a " good beat " ? No.
3156. Have you ever heard anything to that effect ? No ; I keep very much to myself.
3157. Tou know several of them ? Tes ; I could not be off it.
3158. Did you ever get information from them with regard to your visits to the Chinese shops ? No ; I
watch my chance. They go in one way and I go out the other. The reason I stopped it lately was that
I had some thought of my character.
3159. With regard to this alleged system of corruption among the police, in order to be effective, would
it not have to be of a general character as regards all the police down there. For example, if it were a
customary thing for the keepers of the Chinese dens to bribe the police, would they not have to do it to
all the policemen doing duty in that quarter ? I do not see that ; there are pet lambs in every flock.
3160. Supposing a man went on who did not receive a bribe, would it not be necessary to quieten him
also ? It might not ; the Chinese are a cunning race of people. No white man can come over them ; I
do not care where he comes from. A Chinaman would not tell his brother anything if he did not want to.
3161. Have you ever heard of any Chinamen losing large sums o money at gambling? Tes;
about £300 in a game and not one go. 3162.
CHINESE OAMBHNG COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 81
3162. Mr McKillop.] Do you mean at one game ? Yes ; and he would then go and have a sleep for a Mr.
week, lhat is the way they do if ever they have a big loss. E- R- Bowker.
3163. What is the largest amount of money you have seen on the table in one of these places ? If the /7"~"~"~\
Chinamen play with themselves, they play a different game from what they do with white men. If they 2* Sept., 1891.
are playing amongst themselves, it takes an experienced white man to understand them. They play with
a slip ol paper. I do not know what it stands for, but £1 would last him three times as long as it would
a white man.
m f -' ^r J°U lmd any conversatiorl with Mr. Nolan on this subject ? No ; I have spoken to Nock.
dlbo. Did you mention anything to Mr. Nock to the effect that you knew, as a positive fact, of jewellery
ooSd J™80 t0 P°llCe ? ■No ' not t0 the Polico- That was China jewellery, which an'y person
3166. Mr. Abigail] Presented to the police ? No.
3167. You did not mention that you had seen jewellery presented ? No ; but I have seen a watch and
chain go tor its value in money on the game.
3168. Mr. McKillop.] Have you ever seen any watches pass in that way ? No ; they generally go to the
3169. Where do they go to ? To the Mont de Piete or somewhere else.
3170. Do you live with the Chinamen continually ? No, not that far. That is pretty hot.
5,1 ij l?^iy ask Ae 1uestion; there was no intention to hurt your feelings; you can say yes or no?
Could I live on their " tucker ? " I came here to give information, not to take insults, and if I knew the
man who told you that I would pull him for it.
3172. However, the question has been asked, and your reply is " No " ? Certainly.
3173. Mr. Hawthorne.] May I ask you if it is a fact that when a man's money goes in one of these
houses it is quite open for him to go on playing till he has exhausted every article of jewellery that he
may have— that is, that they will take it in payment for his losses ? Yes ; in some of them. I have
seen it done myself. Only a fortnight ago I bought a chain from a Chinaman in one of these places.
3174. What was supposed to be the value of it ? The chain was pawned, and I gave him 10s. for the
ticket of it.
3175. And with that were you allowed to gamble to the extent of the value of the ticket? No ; that was
a private transaction.
3176. I understood you to say just now, that if a person was gambling in one of those fan-tan shops, and
his money became exhausted, that he could go on playing for the value of his watch and chain or any
article of jewellery that he might possess ? Of course I could put the chain on the scale and gamble for
the value of it ; but it is not often done. It has been done.
3177. So that if you were in one of these shops, and you had no money, but you possessed a chain (say)
value £1, you could go on gambling up to the extent'of the £1 ? Yes.
3178. And if you lost all you would simply hand it over to the Chinaman ? I should have to take it off
and put it on the table. There is no working the double with a Chinaman, and when your coin is gone
it is like a public-house — the last 3d. being spent, out you fro of the game.
3179. Have you ever had any conversation with Constable O'Sullivan ? No ; but if I could put him away
I would. I tell you straight.
3180. Do you know anything about him ? No ; I have no connection with him.
3181. Do you know anything detrimental to his character? That is private business.
3182. I understood you to say, if you could do him a "bad turn" you would? Not a bad turn — an.
equal divide alike. He could never let me go past the street with a young girl without giving me a turn.
3183. You have stated that there is a great deal of prostitution in which the Chinese are mixed up in
Cambridge-street ? Yes ; there must be, or why are they there.
3184. Have you ever witnessed any terrible scenes carried on with these Chinamen ? They do not do it
in the streets.
3185. Have you ever been in such a position yourself to see anything outrageous in that connection ?
They carry on there every day, and rows are of frequent occurrence. Only this morning there were some-
women standing outside a shop with a bottle of rum.
3186. Are there many of them in that locality ? Yes.
3187. Any young girls ? Yes. I call a girl young until she reaches the age of 24 or 25.
3188. Do many Chinamen live in these houses together ? That I cannot say. I have not been in any of
the Chinamen's houses ; they do all their own work among themselves.
3189. How long have you been living in Princes-street ? About five or six years. I am an old hand
about the Rocks.
3190. Of what character or occupations are the general run of Europeans who frequent the gambling-
saloons in Lower George-street? The majority of them are coal lumpers and wharf labourers. '
3191. Are there any seamen among them ? Yes; all sorts ; but the majority of them are coal lumpers-
and wharf labourers.
3192. Have you seen much opium-smoking in these places ? Not by white people.
3193. Have you ever seen any girls there ? No. I can swear that no girls have ever come into one of
these place whilst I have be.en playing. They might in the private buildings. A great deal has been,
said about these places that is not true — the same as the papers started a cry about all these shops being
full of vermin. That was a lie. There is nothing of the sort.
3194. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you know ex-Constable Quealy? Yes; he is a " dead bird."
3195. Do you know him ? Yes.
3196. He used to be on the Lower George-street beat ? Yes.
3197. Do you know whether he ever interfered with or tried to put down the gambling practices there ?
Yes ; he used to do it. He was a terror to them. He is no friend of mine ; but if all had been like-
Quealy they would have shifted the Chinamen. Plenty used to clear out from Quealy ; he frightened
them. This last raid has frightened a lot of them, and they have gone selling fish and other things.
3198. Do you know Constable Beadman ? I do not.
3199. Or Carson ? Not personally.
3200. Have you ever noticed any of the constables down there with a considerable display of jewellery,,
such as diamond rings, and so forth ? I have noticed one of them down there with rather a flash
appearance ; I could not say anything further.
™ 272-L 3201.
82
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr
E R Bowkcr 3201- ^ow ^onr. uaye .vou been associated with tlie Chinese gambling-dens? About nine years altogether.
^!_-^-^ ' :i-u-- Xou know tllc 8ame pretty well then ? Yea, too well.
24 Sept., 1891. ?'-i):i- ^ou told ua a little while ago that when the Chinamen play it is difficult for a European to under-
stand them ; — do they have a different game? Yes; when thev "play by themselves. When they play
with white people they have a different way ; I know that. They have iong slips of paper, the same as
they use in playing dominoes. 1 do not know themeaning of them at all. and they play with a Chinese coin.
Supposing a lot of Chinamen were playing on a table, I would not be allowed to play with them ; and if
I were to go in while they were playing they would shift me quick ; well, they would ask me to move.
320-1. Two kinds of fan-tan, do you say ? Yes, to me there are.
3205. Are you sure there are two kinds ? I will not swear there are two kinds of fan-tan ; but I know
they have separate games among themselves and when playing with Europeans, and I know if they are
playing together I will not be allowed to play witli them.
32C0. lou say new and then the police make a raid upon the gambling-dens ; — do you know who it is
that informs these people in the first place of the raids to be made ? No ; that is the mystery.
3207. Have you ever heard of anyone being informed by the police ? No ; but I have heard from persons
outside when a raid was going to be made — from the outside public. "Where they got the information I
do not know. I would stop this gambling with all my heart if I could, for I reckon it is ruining half the
working-men down there. It not only ruins them, but it ruins their wives and children, and the land-
lords, and everyone else.
3208. You say there is a great deal of immorality carried on among the Chinese; — of what age are the
girls you have referred to ? I say that a lot of prostitutes knock about the Chinamen's houses, and carry
on in all sorts of ways.
•3209. Do you think these were pure, good women before they went with the Chinamen ? That would be
■a hard thing for me to tell ; I could not say that.
3210. You cannot say ? No ; how could I ? I have not seen them from lambs.
-3211. Have you any suggestion to offer as to the best means of putting down this gambling evil ; — can the
police do it ? The police do it.
3212. Mr. McKillop.] How is that; — it is their duty, is it not? Yes; but I very often go beyond
my work.
3213. If you commit a burglary is it not their duty to take you in charge ? Yes.
321-1. They would do that, because you would be acting against the laws of the country ? Certainly.
3215. Well, gambling is against the laws of the country also ? What the policeman sees is under the
gaslight. He knows what is going on, but what he sees in the dark he is not sure of.
3216. Therefore, that if he knows what is going on, he does not do his duty ? You cannot expect one
policeman to do it and do his beat at the same time.
3217. Then you think the Inspector at fault ? I do not say so. At that rate you would have to have an
inspector at every shop.
•3218. Mr. Quon/jf Tart.'] You say they know gambling is carried on every day ; — could they not go and
inform the inspector of it ? Yes ; I think the inspector should give them a rule to go by — to go through
every Chinaman's shop whenever they think proper, and not to pass by the doors, as they do now.
3219. I want to know how you would stop this gambling for the future ? My idea is that the policeman
on that beat should be allowed to go in and out of these shops as often as he likes ; let him pass in
continually. The people who go there would soon get frightened, and would not go near them.
3220. You have said tbat the police now and then make a raid on the Chinese gambling-dens ; — if they
could do it at one time, could they not do it at another ? I will explain that to you : Every hour there
is a bank drawn, and fan-tan is played every minute in the day. The police know what time the bank is
drawn ; every man who enters the place knows. At night-time, about 8 o'clock, is the best time to be
there, and that is the time the last raid was made.
3221. Are they all Europeans, or are there many Chinese there? There must be a Chinaman to draw,
and one to pay. They are mostly Europeans.
3222. Would there be many there ? Yes ; packed on top of one another, almost as many as can get
round the table to reach their money over.
3223. You said a little while ago that the Chinese were so very cunning ; — how do so many Europeans
allow two Chinamen to play against them all ? Very easy. They are so clever with their hands. I have
seen a Chinaman take forty-five coins, and throw them along the table, into separate fives, with an inch
and a half between each five ; and yet the Europeans will play with them.
3224. They would be spring coins, I suppose ? No ; they work it with their fingers. [The witness here
illustrated the game of 'fan-tan .]
3225. Mr. Hawthorne.] So that you argue a Chinaman can always win ? He can do what he likes — that
is, if he is willing to do it. Some of them will play fair ; but if they are out of pocket they cannot stand
that at all. They are extraordinarily quick at palming.
3226. Have you been able to detect anything in the shape of manipulation during the progress of the
play ? There are Chinese you cannot detect.
3227. Nothing in the way of spring coins? No ; the coins are all right.
3228. Can you give us the names of any of these men ? They appear to have all one name to me.
3229. Do you not think you could name one of the notorious Chinese gamblers, seeing that you have
been amongst them such along time ? I have not been such a great gambler as all that ; I have stuck to
one or two houses.
3230. Can you give us the name of those you have been in the habit of playing with ? I reckon that
shop where the last raid was made is one.
3231. What is the name of that place ? Moy Ping's.
3232. What is the name of the other place where you have gambled ? I do not know the name of that.
3233. Mr. Abigail.] Is it Sun Sam Kee's ? That is on the opposite side of the road.
3234. Mr. Hawthorne.] Have you been in Han Kee's ? I ha\e only been in to see the bank drawn there.
3235. Have you been in No. 178, the same side of the road as Way Kee's — that is, Pun Num's ? If it is
the one that joins the boot shop, I have been in there.
3236. Mr. Quong Tart.] Do you know the pak-ah-pu ticket ? Yes.
3287. Is it like that [handing the ivitness a piece of paper bearing Chinese characters] ? No.
3238.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 83
3238. Is it like this [handing him another'] ? Yes, that is it. [Witness descrihes how the lottery is drawn.] Mr-
3239. Can you say what are the chances of winning ? I cannot tell you that, more than that' it is a mere E- E-Bowker-
fluke. I have been playing for nine years. ' ~^ — x
3240. How much have you won iu nine years ? I reckon if I got £60 all the time it is all I ever got out 24SePt''189L
oi it ; but I know men who have got hundreds out of it.
3241. President.] Do you know Mr. Eobert Nolau, assistant in Mr. Nock's, the ironmonger? I know
him in a sense.
3242. Have you ever spoken to him on the subiect of the Chinese ? No ; I have spoken to Mr. Nock.
3243. Did you never have any conversation with Mr. Nolan on the subject of Chinese gambling ? No.
3244. Did you ever have any conversation with Mr. Nook or Mr. Nolan on the subject of the alleged
bribery of the police ? Well, at one time Mr. Nock asked me did I think it was donej and I said, "Prom
all I hear, I think it is done, but I cannot prove it. "
3245. Then if anyone has said that you could give practical evidence with regard to this alleged bribery ;
that you could prove it, and knew that bribes had been taken of your own knowledge,— that would be
untrue ? If anyone swore that, it was untrue.
3246. You cannot give any practical or direct evidence yourself on the subject of bribery of the police ?
No ; not to say I have seen them take it.
3247. Did you ever tell Mr. Nock that any constable or police officer had taken a bribe? No ; only I
know what you mean and what he means.
3248. Did you say anything that would lead Mr. Nock or Mr. Nolan to believe that you could prove a
charge of bribery against the police ? The only thing I said to him was this : I was in a shop one day
when a policeman came in, and said to the Chinaman " Do you want to fight?" The Chinaman replied,
" I will fight you." The policeman walked through into the hall, and the Chinaman went with him.
Further than that I cannot say.
3249. Who was the constable ? Constable O'Sullivan.
3250. What shop were you in wheo this took place ? Moy Took's.
3251. What is the address ? I think it is about 202, Lower George-street. There is another name over
the door, I think it is Sing Lee.
3252. The constable came in and indulged in the conversation you have related, and then passed into an
ante-room ? No, into the hall. I won't say whether he went down the yard or what took place.
3253. Before he passed through he had this conversation at the counter? Tes ; in the front shop, and
went through the hall into the back.
3254. Into some interior apartment ? Tes.
3255. As if he had private business there with the Chinaman, — was that the conclusion you arrived at ?
Well, either that, or he went to go into the yard.
3256. What did you say to the Chinese afterwards ; — did you refer to the policeman ? I did. I said,
" What did he want in there — I suppose he is after tip."
3257. Now, Mr. Bowker, I think you have given your evidence m a very straightforward manner so far ;
this inquiry has no personal interest for me, or any member of the Commission ; we are simply desirous of
getting at the truth in this matter ; and I want you to tell me exactly what took place at this time,
because it is very important ? I have told you.
3258. This conversation you had with the Chinaman took place after the constable went in, as you have
stated, and you said to him you supposed the constable went in there for tip ? Tes ; it was natural that
a man should think it.
3259. What did the Chinaman say to that ? I said, " What's the matter — did you give him anything?"
and he said, " No fear, no fear" ; they won't tell you anything.
3260. Now, will you tell me what time that took place ? I cannot tell you exactly.
3261. Was it night-time ? No ; day-time.
3262. Was it three months ago ? It is over that ; it was a couple or three months before the raid.
3263. Broadly speaking — was it six months ago ? Well, say that ; it might be over.
3264. Do you know where O'Sullivan is living ? I do not know. When he used to meet me and give
me a " jolly," as I have said, he lived in Princes-street.
3265. Is Constable O'Sullivan addicted to wearing jewellery ? I do not know. I have never seen the-
man in private clothes yet. I cannot say that. The only man I have seen wearing jewellery is
3265J. Is it Beadman ? The man I mean is a tall man, with a dark moustache.
3266. Is there anything else you can say to substantiate the charge of corruption against the police ? I
cannot. I do not think you will find out much about the police, because it is done in a curious way. I
do not think you will do" anything with this Chinese business the way you are going about it.
3267. By the system of raids, you mean ? Tes ; they only make raids on one or two shops.
3268. Would you have continuous police surveillance — continual attendance on them? Tes ; it wants a-
special man to keep going in and out of these shops.
3269. Do you think the landlords of the houses should be made responsible where gambling is carried on ?'
Yes : the men who own that property ought to be ashamed of themselves. _
3270. Tou cannot give us any private information that would lead to conviction in these cases ? No ; if
I could I would bring it home hot and strong.
3271. Mr. Quonq Tart.] Are there any respectable Chinese merchants in Lower George-street ? Tes;
there are several— Sun Kum Tiy, On Yik, and others.
3272. If all the Chinese establishments were carried on like those there would be no complaint ? No.
3273. President.] Who was the man you had the conversation with about the policeman ? Moy Yook,
Ah Ping's brother ; he lives at No. 208.
FHIDAT,
84 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
FRIDAY, 25 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
$usmt: —
The Mayor of Sydney (Alderman MANNING, Esq., J.P.), President.
EEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Yick-Pbesident.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Mr. Edwin Mathers called and examined : —
Mr 3274. Mr. MoEillop.] Where do you reside? At, 15, Bellington-street, Miller's Point.
E. Mathers. ^15. You are a member of some society, I believe ? I am a member of the Coal Lumpers' Union.
25 S 1801 ^76. Do you hold any office in that society ? I am the president.
ep "' ' 3277. Have you at any time, since you have been associated with that society, gambled at any of these
Chinese gaming-houses ? Yes.
3278. How long ago ? It is about two and a half years ago since I was last in one of them.
3279. Used you to frequent these places pretty often ? Yes, very often.
' 3280. "Were your losses considerable ? Yes, very heavy.
3281. Have you won only large sums, or won any money there at all? I have won money, but no
large sums.
3282. Have you ever been in one of these gambling-houses when the police have entered? Yes,
frequently.
3283. "Were they in uniform ? At times they were, and at other times in private clothes.
3284. You mean that you have been present when the police have come in whilst gambling was going
on? Yes.
3285. "Where is this gambling carried on — in the outer room or in the inner room ? In the inner room.
3286. Is it ever carried on in the cellars? Yes, sometimes.
3287. Did the police enter the inner room where the gambling was going on ? Yes.
3288. Did they come for the purpose of putting a stop to the game ? Yes.
3289. Did they stop it ? Eor the time being.
3290. Did they take the names of those who were playing ? No.
3291. Was there a rush made for the table ? There was a scramble for the money that was on the table.
3292. Did the police take part in the scramble ? Tho police did take part in it. On all occasions when I
have seen the police go into the houses they have scrambled.
3293. And they have always been first to make the scramble? I will not say "always." At times
they have.
3294. Could you name any particular constable, or constables who did this? I could, but I should not
like to mention names.
3295. President."] It is very necessary that you should answer this question ; — you must do so just as if
you were on your oath in a Court ? Yes ; but I might make a charge against a constable, and although I
knew it to be a fact, might not be able to prove it.
3296. Mr. McKillop.~] It is absolutely necessary for us to have the names of the policemen who have
taken part in the scrambles ; — will you kindly give them to us ? I can give you one name, and 1 do so
without the slightest hesitation, because the man is beyond the reach of the police regulations — he is out
of the force. 1 refer to ex-Constable Quealy.
3297. And do you know any others ? There are numbers of them.
3298. Can you mention any by name ? No, I cannot.
3299. Do you know Constables Carson and Beadman ? I have not seen seen either of them do it, though
I have seen them go into the houses and buffet and kick all the Europeans who were clearing out.
3300. Mr. Abigail.'] But not arrest them ? No; they used brute force to clear those who were scrambling
out. I have frequently been in houses when the police have cleared the people out, and unless I have
happened to be near the door where I could slip out easily, I have always taken a seat at the table, and
waited there until everybody else has cleared out. In that way I have had a few words with the police,
and they have occasionally read me a bit of a lecture, and told me to " clear," but in all cases I have got
out without the disgrace of a blow.
3301. Mr. McKillop.] Before they had commenced to cuff the people they saw the gambling carried on?
They saw the gambling carried on.
3302. Could you possibly name any constable besides Quealy who participated in any of these scrambles
for the money that was on the gaming-tables ; did you ever see Senior-constable Adair make a plunge for
the table, or Constable Wheelan, or Sergeant Higgins, or Sergeant M'Guire, or any of the other constables ?
I have seen Sergeant — I forget his name — but I refer to the gentleman who is now at Manly Beach.
3303. Sergeant MTntosh ? Yes.
3304. You have seen him make a plunge for the table ? Yes.
•3305. Have you given up gambling with the Chinamen ? Yes ; I did so two and a half years ago.
3306. You have stated to the Commission that you are President of the Coal-lumpers' Union? Yes.
3307. Is it since you took office that you considered it would not be consistent with your position to keep
up the habit of gambling ? No ; I gave the habit up before I became President of the Union.
3308. Have you ever seen any bribes given to the police, or presents in the shape of furniture or jewellery
made them ? No ; I have never seen any bribes offered, though I am certain that they are given.
3309. Would you kindly inform the Commission your reasons for holding that opinion ? I have seen the
police in plain clothes in company with Chinese gambling-house proprietors — or at all events with those
who are carrying on the game of fan-tan — in the private bars of public-houses drinking with them.
3310. Drinking with the bankers and croupiers ? Yes ; and I have seen! them in the front shops, where
the tickets for pak-ah-pu are on sale, talking to them. I have seen cigars given to them on some of
those occasions, but that is the only thing in the nature of a present that I have ever seen.
3311. Have you ever seen the police taking part in the gambling themselves ? No.
3312. Have you ever seen them having anything to do with these lottery tickets ? No.
3313. I suppose that the police enter these places without any difficulty ? In times back, yes. Latterly,
during the last five years, it has been very difficult for the police to enter the rooms where the gambling
las been carried on. 3314.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 85
3314. Was it easy for the police to enter two and a half years ago ? No ; not two and a half years ago ; Mr-
but it was ten years ago, when I first began to visit the gambling-houses. B- Mathere-
3315. But four or five years ago it was very easy for the police to walk in, and they did so with impunity ? 25^7t""l891
3316. Have you ever seen any of these constables— Sergeant Higgins, Sergeant M'G-uire, Senior-constable
Adair, Constable Wheelan, Constable Beadman, or Constable Carson— wearing any expensive jewellery,
such as diamond rings ? No ; I cannot say that I have
3317. Tou know Mr. Atwill ? Yes.
3318. Was he in charge of the district a part of the time you were in the habit of visiting these dens ?
3319. Have you ever seen him in any of them ? Yes.
3320. In the inner rooms ? Yes.
3321. Whilst gambling was being carried on ? Yes.
3322. Did he make any arrests ? No arrests.
3323. Were other police officers with him at the time ? Yes ; they were.
3324. What did he do on the occasions that you have seen him in the inner rooms where gambling was
being carried on ? He has cleared the men out, and on two occasions, or it might have been more,
because as I have explained, unless I was near the door, where I could get out easilv, I used to take a
seat at the table, and remain till the last ; Sergeant Atwill has read me a lecture, saying that he was sur-
prised to see me there.
3325. Was he a sergeant or an inspector at that time ? I will not be sure. He might have been an
inspector.
3326. Was he in uniform then ? Yes.
3327. Did he wear the same uniform then as now? I do not know. It was too long ago for me to
remember that.
3328. At all events he gave you advice ? Yes ; he said that he was surprised to see me in amongst the
crowd that w~ere there.
3329. Did you make any reply to him ? Well, I do not remember the reply that I made. Whatever it
was it was civil, for I admit that I was a bit ashamed of myself for being found there.
3330. Did he ever threaten to arrest or to summons you ? No.
3331. Was there any scrambling for the money whilst he was present? No, I do not think so ; at least,
not on the part of the police. It was always a rule that, if the police made a raid on the house, or even
if there was a cry of " Police," for the people who were round the table to make a snatch for the money,
if there was any money on the' board at the time, and some would make a match for the bank.
3332. How much have you seen on the table at one time ? Oh, I have seen over £70.
3333. And what is the smallest amount you have seen them playing for ? I have seen them draw the lid
for 2d. or 3d., but that was only for amusement — it was not gambling.
3334. When these rushes have been made by the police, have these places been crowded with people ?
Yes, usually.
3335. By Europeans ? Yes, of late years. It is very, very seldom that you see Chinamen gambling
amongst Europeans. They generally gamble by themselves, and, where the Chinese have been gambling
alone, they have not of late years allowed Europeans to put their money on the board ; but seven or
eight or ten years ago you would find half Chinese and half Europeans playing round the same table.
3336. Now it is principally all Europeans ? Yes ; or all Chinamen.
3337. Could you give the Commission any idea of the numbers that used to be present in these dens ?
Well, of course it would vary.
3338. Would there be forty, fifty, sixty, or eighty persons in at one time, do you think ? I should say
that, at the outside, round one table there might be thirty or forty. When there are thirty or forty
present the room is pretty well crowded, and most of the players have to pass the money they wish to
stake over to those who are standing round the table to put on the board for them.
3339. At the time you used to gamble were you aware of any fund subscribed by the proprietors of the
establishments for any purpose whatever ? No ; I know of no fund established by the reduction of
money from those who won at fan-tan, excepting the ordinary commission of Id. for anything over 8d.
and under Is.
3340. President.'] That was for the bank ? Yes.
3341. That is to say, that, if you won you would have to subject your winnings to a deduction of that
amount ? Yes.
3342. Mr. McKillop.] Have you ever seen women playing fan -tan ? Never.
3343. Have you ever seen young boys enter these places ? Yes, frequently.
3344. Boys of what age ? From 14 years old upwards.
3345. Have you ever seen girls enter these places ? I have never seen them gambling.
3346. Have you seen them visiting the places ? Yes.
3347. Young girls ? Yes ; young girls.
3348. What do they visit these places for ? I have seen them there to put in pak-ah-pu tickets, and I
have seen them there for other purposes.
3349. Mr. Abigail.] Immoral purposes ? Immoral purposes — I should imagine.
3350. Mr. McKillop.] Is it a fact that your Union, seeing that this pernicious habit was ruining a large
number of your members, and causing a great deal of trouble and distress amongst their wives and
children, took a decided stand against it a few years ago ? Yes.
3351. What was the nature of that action ? In 1888 a resolution was passed to the effect that any
member who should be proved to be dealing with Chinamen, or playing fan-tan or pak-ah-pu, should be
fined 5s., and that minute passed by our society was advertised for a week in the daily papers — Evening
News, the Daily Telegraph, and the Sydney Morning Herald.
3352. Was 5s. the maximum fine, or was the amount increased in the event of a second offence ? There
was only one amount. That was in 1888.
3353. President.] How long ago is it since you first embarked in gambling? It is about ten years
ago.
3354. When did you give it up ? About two and a half years ago.
3355.
86
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
*J?- 3355. Will you tell us as nearly as you possibly can, how many times tlie police disturbed you in garni ng-
".V"8 h°uses during the period that you indulged in gambling — that is, during (say) about eight years? As
25S t 189' near as ■"• can guess, about twenty times.
" '' " 3:356. Did they disturb you very frequently before you discontinued gaming ? No.
3357. As a matter of fact, then, during the latter part of your gaming career they very seldom disturbed
you ? Very seldom ; it was more difficult for them to get in during the last five years than formerly.
3358. "Will you explain why ? The rooms in which they have latterly conducted the games of fan- tan
are right at the back of the premises, and these are cut off from the front rooms by strongly-bolted doors,,
in which there are slides through which they can look to see whom they are admitting, and as soon as the
police make their appearance the word is passed to the bankers inside, and the gamblers are then hurried
out at the back. That is why it is so seldom during the last five years that raids have been made. Then,
too, there is always a watchman kept at the door now, but formerly they could not afford to keep a
watchman, I suppose, and any person could come in and out as they liked. In the early days of Chinese
gambling down there — eight or nine years ago — there were not more than about six gambling-houses in
the city, and they were nearly all raided every night in the week, and sometimes twice a night. Every
one would be cleared out by each raid, and ten minutes afterwards the gambling would start afresh.
3359. But supposing you or I, or any half-dozen civilians, had wanted to get into one of these gaming-
houses during the last five years we could have got in, notwithstanding the precautions taken against the-
police ? Yes, we could have got in.
3360. Because we should not be taken for policemen ? Quite so.
3361. And so, if any strange policeman — any policeman new in the force or from another beat — had
attempted to get in he could have done so easily notwithstanding the precautions ? Yes.
3362. It was your custom when there was a raid to remain quiet, and stop till the last ? Yes.
3363. Did you ever hear any conversation between the police and the proprietors of the gaming-saloons-
after the crowd had been turned out? I have heard a conversation between Mr. Atwill and the croupier
of one gaming-house.
3361. What is his name ? I do not know his name ; I know the shop only.
3365. What is the shop ? I do not know the number ; it is next to a pawn-shop that projects further
out on to the pavement.
3366. Sun Sam Kee's ? Yes, that is the name, I think.
3367. What was the nature of that conversation ? The banker had had most of his money snatched
away, and he was in an excited state of mind at the time. Mr. Atwill went to him and said, " How is
this ? I will have to have you up to the court if you keep carrying on this game. I have warned you
before." So the Chinaman turned to him and said, " Well, sir, there were only a few of them here ; they
will come in, and there were Chinamen playing too." Asa matter of fact there were no Chinamen
playing at the time.
3368. Were you ever in a gambling-house when Inspector Atwill made another raid ? Oh, yes.
3369. Can you give us any conversation that took place between Mr. Atwill and yourself, or Mr. Atwill
and anybody else who was present — Chinese or European ? No, I cannot.
3370. Do you recollect any time when there was a raid made, and the money was scrambled for, the police
participating in the scramble, and taking any of the money ? I have seen it done ; I was going to say
scores of times ; but I have seen it done several times. On those occasions, the first thing the police
went for was the money, the money belonging to the banker, not the money that was on the table. I was
going to explain that on one occasion, I saw a policeman, who is now in the force (I will not mention his
name), come in in plain clothes. He was recognised by a few, and directly the whisper went round, and
nearly everybody else left the table, and he was left standing over the Chinaman, and made a grab for the
money in the bank.
3371. Did he take any of the money ? He took as much as he could hold.
3372. And did he immediately leave the room ? After the rest left.
3373. Immediately after? That I cannot say.
3374. Did you leave the room ? Yes.
3375. But he took the money ? Yes.
3376. Was there any altercation between the Chinese banker and himself? I do not know ; you see I
left the room before he did.
3377. He did all that, by virtue of his being a policeman, and in plain clothes ? Yes.
3378. Did you ever hear of him instituting any proceedings against that gaming-house ? No.
3379. You never heard anything more about the police action in this matter ? No.
33S0. Of course I know that there is a disinclination on your part to give us the name of this policeman,
but you cannot conceal it. We must insist upon having it. We have all the powers of the Supreme Court,
in regard to the taking of evidence, and it will be absolutely necessary for you to give the name. Of
course we recognise the goodness of your motives in wishing to withhold it, but we must insist upon
having it ? No ; I will not give the constable's name.
3381. Then unfortunately we shall have to take measures to compel you to give his name. It is very
unpleasant for us to have to ask you ; but if you will not surrender the name, you will place yourself in
a very serious position, and I must ask you to consider that position. I have no hesitation in saying what
our duty is. It is to require you to give the name up, and I need hardly say that it will be required. It
is absolutely necessary. You are not doing anything that you will be ashamed of. In fact we might
promise you secrecy in the matter.
3382. Mr. McKillop.~] Witnesses are very much afraid of persecution? I am not; I know this man
personally, and it is the only thing I know to his detriment.
3383. President,'] Well, if you will give us his name, I shall take care that all the extenuating circum-
stances are brought to light ? No ; 1 shall not do it ; because I have great respect for the man myself.
I have had many conversations with him since.
3384. Well, but the fact that you give us the name, will not be conclusive proof of anything. It can
only give rise to a suspicion that he put the money in his pocket, because you left immediately, and he
might have done something else with it. At all events you must give us the name ? Well ; I shall have
to be forced to give it before I do so.
3385. Well then I shall have to force vou by formally threatening, as I do, to commit you for contempt
of Court. " 3386.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, ST
3386. Mr. McKillop.] Is it Senior-constable Adair? I will not answer that question. I have taken Mr.
my stand, and I will not answer that question till I am really forced to do it. I am sorry that I spoke E- Ma*hers-
about the circumstance in the first instance, and I should not have done so if I had thought that the man's 0-C^0,
name would have been forced from me. ^ohept.isai.
3387. The question of force only comes in when you are endeavouring to conceal from us the name of
a constable who may or may not have been concerned in a wrong action ? I still object to give the
constable's name.
3388. Tou have no power to object. Tou may retire for a few minutes, I have no doubt, to consider
jour position. Tou will not go away ? No.
Witness retired accordingly, and upon his return, —
3389. The President said : "Well, Mr. Mathers, before we go any further, we want you to give us the name
of the policeman. I may tell you that the bulk of this evidence will not be seen by the general public?
Well, it stands this way with me : I have no personal fear of giving the man's name, but it is because of
the respect I have for him that I decline. I know him personally, and in everv other respect I know him
to be a very decent, honest, upright man. I have had a considerable acquaintance with him, and have
known him to do some very good actions, and though I saw him take the money I do not know what he
■did with it.
3390. I will ask you all about that, and the constable will have had out of your mouth, before you leave
the room, as good an opportunity of explaining himself as though he had been here personally ; but it
will be necessary for us to know his name. Tou are attaching a little too much importance to the fact
of his touching the money, because, as you all left the room you do not know what he did with it. After
you have given us his name I will ask you questions in the man's interest, because we are not here to
fasten charges upon the police but to discover the whole truth of the matter ? "Well, if it is not to
fasten charges upon the police that you are here why do you require this man's name ?
3391. I cannot allow you to ask the Commission that question. We have to get at the root of these
charges ? _ Well, it is with very great pain that I give the name.
3392. It is necessary for you to give the name, and you cannot honorably avoid doing so ? It was Con-
stable Adair.
3393. Is he in the force now? Tes.
3394. Tou saw him put his hand over a Chinaman's shoulder and touch the money ? Tes.
3395. Have you any idea as to how much money was in the bank upon that occasion ? No ; it is so far
back that I cannot remember.
3396. How long ago is it ? About six years ago.
3397. Did the money consist of notes, gold, or silver ? Silver ; there were no notes or gold.
3398. Had they what you call a big bank ? No ; a small bank ; it was at Ah Moy's gambling-house,
3399. What, in your opinion, would be the probable amount that Adair placed his hand on ? At the out-
side, the most silver he could get his hand upon at one time would bo £2-worth.
3400. Well a man could not very easily take up £2-worth of silver at one time ? Well, he could not
take up more than that, that is clear.
3401. What is Adair's general character — you have known him many years have you not ? Tes.
3402. What is his general character ? He is a trustworthy officer.
3403. A respectable man ? Tes ; as far as I know he is.
3404. And you know him pretty well ? I know him principally because at the time of the strike I had
many opportunities of speaking to him, and at that time I had a good few conversations with him.
3405. And he has always struck you as being a very good public servant? Tes; a very good public
servant.
3406. Did you see him put the money he took off the table into his pocket ? I did not.
3407. Did he leave immediately after you ? I do not know. I left as soon as I could.
3408. Do you think it probable that the Chinamen would have allowed him to keep it ? I think it very
probable that the Chinamen would have allowed him to keep it if he wanted to in order to get out of
trouble.
3409. But you have no knowledge of what occurred between the Chinaman and the policeman after the
latter touched the money ? No.
3410. Is Senior Constable Adair a plain clothes constable ? Tes.
3411. Do you know anything about his circumstances in life ? I believe he is a married man.
3412. With a family ? I do not know whether he has any family.
3413. Do you know where he lives ? I do not ; but I believe that it is on the Rocks somewhere.
3414. Do you know if he is possessed of any property ? No, I do not.
3415. Did you ever meet him in other gaming-houses ? I have met him in several of the other gaming-
houses.
3416. Was he in plain clothes then ? Tes ; he is always in plain clothes.
3417. Did he ever attempt to do anything of the same kind in any other gaming-house ? I never saw him.
3418. He never attempted an operation of that kind in any other gaming-house either before or after-
wards ? Not that I saw.
3419. Did you ever hear of his having done it ? No.
3420. Did he stand quietly by in these various gambling-houses whilst the gaming was going on? He
did in this one instance.
3421. That is in the one instance where he touched the money ? Tes.
3422. But I mean on the other occasions to which you have referred ? He came in in accordance with his
duty and dispersed the people.
3423. Did he ever make any arrests ? Tes.
3424. Did he always stay behind and wait till he had raided the people out of the premises ? Tes.
3425. It was your custom to remain till the last, standing quietly by whilst the other people were being
turned out and then leaving without any bother ? Tes.
3426. Well, did you ever hear him in conversation with any of the proprietors of any of the gaming-
houses before leaving yourself? No, I never overheard any conversations between him and the
gambling-house keepers.
3427. Have you any reason to suspect that he raided the people out of the gaming-houses for the purpose
of levying blackmail on the Chinese ? Tea ; I always bad that suspicion. 3428.
88 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 3428. In connection with Adair and the other constables who raided the people ? Tes.
E. MatherB. g^g. Tell me the names of some of the other constables ? Ex-Constable Quealy was a great frequenter
vw*~t~^mi °^ *^e gaming-houses.
p ' 3430. Was he an associate of Adair. Did he go with him on duty ? No, he was not an associate of
Adair's.
3431. "Was he a plain clothes constable ? No ; although I have seen him in the gaming-house in plain
clothes.
3432. Any other man besides ex-Constable Quealy and Senior Constable Adair who were in the habit of
making these raids ? Yes, I know several of them.
3433. Do you mind giving us their names ? I do not mean necessarily the names of men who took money
but who visited these houses in the exercise of their duty? There was Senior-constable Adair, Sergeant
Higgins, ex-Constable Quealy, Constable Black, and Constable Beard, and two more whose names I do
not remember.
3434. Can you tell me anything about Inspector Atwill in connection with these raids ? Tes ; he was
one who frequently raided the gaming-houses. I have been in pretty well a dozen raids headed by him.
3435. But they never effected any arrests on these occasions ? Never when I was there.
3436. They simply dispersed the gamblers ? Tes.
3437. Can you tell me anything about Sergeant Higgins ? Tes ; I know him.
3438. Is he a man of means ? Oh, I have not the slightest idea.
3439. Did you ever, on any of these occasions, find him attempting to rob the bank or scramble for the
money? No; I cannot say that I noticed him doing anything of that sort.
3440. But it was the invariable custom of the police to drive the people away and to remain behind with
the Chinese ? Tes.
3441. Would not that be the natural thing to do in the execution of their duty ? Tes ; I should say it
would.
3442. So that the fact of its being natural robs it of its suspicious character ? Tes ; it does.
3443. Ton do not know anything about Sergeant Higgins taking bribes from the Chinese ? No.
3444. Did you ever hear of any presents being given to any of these men — Higgins, Quealy, Adair,
Black, or Beard, or to any other policemen, by the Chinese ? No ; I cannot say that I have.
3445. When did Quealy leave the force ? Within the last two months.
3446. What was Quealy's conduct on the occasion of these raids ? He was the most inhuman of the
whole lot of constables. He used to kick and punish the people.
3447. Tou mean that he treated the people very roughly when he was dispersing them? Very roughly.
3448. He was engaged in one raid in which a member of our Union who was present broke his foot in.
jumping over a stool that happened to be in his way, and was laid up for five months, and in the hospital
for some time. I helped him into a cab at the door, and took the boot off his foot.
3449. Did Quealy, in the course of the scramble, attempt to possess himself of any of the money that
was on the table, or of any of the banker's money ? I cannot say that I ever saw him take the money.
3450. When the police made these raids was it not the invariable custom of the people about the table to
attempt to get the money that was on the table ? Tes ; they snatched for the money.
3451. And is it not your impression that the police also attempted to get the money ? Tes ; it is my
impression.
3452. And they would in that way endeavour to get hold of the gambling implements ? Tes.
3453. So that the police, in endeavouring to get hold of the gambling implements, might have led you to
believe that they were also trying to get possession of the money ? Tes.
3454. Have you ever heard complaints made that the police did get hold of the money ? Tes.
3455. Were these complaints made by the bankers ? Tes.
3456. Then that supports you in your suspicion that they raided for the money ? Tes.
3457. Was it a general complaint against the police amongst the Chinese bankers and the people engaged
in the play that when the police made a raid they got hold of what money they could ? Tes.
3458. And they never, on any of these occasions, made any arrests ? No ; they never made any arrests.
3459. Did you ever hear of any summonses being issued immediately after these raids ? No.
3460. If there had been summonses issued would you have known ? Most probably I should.
3461. But you never carefully sought to know. Did you bother, during the next three or four days, to
look in the papers ? Tes ; and I was a frequent visitor at these houses. I would wait until the raid
was made, and then shortly afterwards go in again, and the next night I should visit the same house.
3462. So that if the police took any action against the gaming-house proprietors you would have known ?
Tes ; because I should have been in it.
3463. Then that strengthens your opinion that the police raided for money and never made arrests or
sought to punish the gambling-house proprietors ? Tes.
3464. Who is Black ? A constable.
3465. A plain clothes constable ? No.
3466. Is he in the Force now? Tes.
3467. Tou have been present when he has raided these places ? Tes.
3468. Have you anything to charge him with in regard to conniving at gaming more than the rest of the
police ? No.
3469. But the general observations you have made apply to Black, to Beard, to Higgins, and to Atwill ?
Tes ; to all the police who have been on that beat. They have all at times made raids on gambling-houses,
and when I have been in gambling and they have cleared the people out they have never made any
arrests and never issued any summonses, and when, as has often been the case, the people have returned
after the police have gone out one man would say, "Ah Moy, I had 2s. 6d. on the board and it has gone ; "
another would say, "Ah Moy, I had 2s. on the table and it has gone," and the banker would say, "The
police have got it."
3470. When you returned to the house you found that the money had all been taken away by some-
body? Tes.
3471. And when the gamesters asked what had become of it the Chinamen would answer that the police
had got it ? Tes.
3472. The proprietors of the gaming-houses never accounted to you for the loss of the money ? No.
3173. So that the issue as to who really took it rests between them and the police ? Tes. 3474.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
&
3473. How long is it since Inspector Atwill read you the last lecture on earning? About three rt $*;
years ago. & & jg_ Mathers.
34j4; P^t1011 ^ake anF reP!y of importance ? No ; I felt rather ashamed of myself for being there, 9/2^rqi
and told him a. bit of an untruth. J 2oSept.,1891.
3475. Have you since heard anything about Inspector Atwill's execution of his duty in regard to the
b Th^Chi'Mm8 lS6S ? °h' JeS ' I haVG heard a l0t °f Pe°ple Say that InsPector Atwi11 is " i{^ed "
3476. You cannot give us any direct evidence? No, I cannot.
3477. But it is a general impression that, in addition to the profits the police make out of these raids, they
are_ tipped as well? It is my belief that they are.
3478. Would you give us the names of the houses that you frequented? Well I really cannot tell you
the names. I used to frequent all of them.
3479. Oh, well, in that case it does not matter;— on the occasions when you were present, the company
was composed of Chinese and Europeans, I suppose ? Well, the company was entirely European, though
there were always Chinese present running the gambling.
3480. But they now generally play with Europeans only ? Yes ; I am safe in saying that during the last
o^m? never sa7 one Cllillamali Paying in company with Europeans.
3481. lhey generally make the Europeans their prey ? Yes.
3^,2- ^ y?u walk into these Piaces by yourself or with a friend ? Sometimes by myself, but usually
with a mend. J J J
3483. Two, or three ? Generally with one only.
3484. Have you any particular friend who was in the habit of going there with you ? Well I had at
times ; I usually had a chum.
3485. Would you give us the names of two or three of them, so that we could examine them as witnesses ?
1 can give you the name of one— Harry Saunders.
3486. What is his address ? I do not know his address, but I can always find him.
3487. Have you any other friend like Mr. Saunders, or is there anybody else you know who would be able
l°&™ ™ any formation about these practices ; of course we have no wish to implicate anybody ?
Well I know several who could give valuable information if they would only do so. But, excuse me, I
understood that this evidence was being taken not against the police but to be used against the evil of
gambling. At all events I will think of the matter.
3488. Mr. Abigail.] Have you visited any of the places shown in the photographs ? Yes.
3489. There are white notices on the front of them, you observe ;— do you know what they mean ? No ;
I do not..
3490. Do you know that fan-tan is carried on in them ? Yes ; I have played there myself.
3491. Mr. Hawthorne.'] How did you find out the different places to go to if you cannot read the Chinese
notices ? Well, a frequenter of Chinese gambling-houses usually finds out when a new house is started.
If you do not know yourself somebody else will very quickly tell you.
3492. I)o the Chinese themselves ever stick you up outside their shops, asking you to go in and play fan-
tan ? Yes ; that is now the custom, though it used not to be'.
3493. They stand outside their shops, just as a tradesman might do, to ask you to buy a suit of clothes ?
Yes. Of course if you are walking at a fair rate they will not stop you ; but if you are sauntering they
will.
3494. What is their usual mode of salutation ? "Do you play? Fan-tan inside."
3495. And that is on the public street? Yes.
3496. Mr. Quona Tart.] At what hours were these raids made ? Always at night.
3497. About what hour ? Between 8 and 10 o'clock.
3498. You referred to a number of raids at different places ; can you give us the names of the places ;—
you referred to a constable being the last man to go out of a place ;— where was that ? At Ah Moy's.
3499. But your observation that the police always stay to the last applies to all raids ? Yes ; to all raids.
I was implicated in a court case that occurred over a row in a Chinaman's shop — a furniture-shop on the
left-hand side of George-street.
3500. Ah Toy's ? I think it was Ah Toy's. A man called Erank Scott was up for assault and robbery.
At that time there was a fan-tan table in one compartment, and six white people on the other side of it,
and Erank Scott got into a row with one of the Chinamen and began to fight with him, and the Chinaman
took an iron bar to knock him down, and Erank Scott got a piece of wood and knocked his opponent and
the rest of the Chinamen out of the establishment. The police then came on the scene, and all the
Europeans cleared, with the exception of Erank Scott and another young fellow. Scott then came out,
and just managed to escape the police, but the young fellow who was left behind was caught by the
police, and he had in his possession a drawer containing a considerable amount of money and also a watch
and chain which the Chinaman had taken out of his vest pocket, and locked up inside the drawer.
Between them, however — Frank Scott and this young fellow — they had smashed the drawer, and one of
them had got the things out of it.
3501. What sort of man is Sun Sam Kee ; — can he speak English well ? Yes ; very well.
3502. Does he dress like a European ? Yes.
3503. Any amount of jewellery on him, I suppose ? Yes ; all the Chinese at his place seem very
intelligent.
3504. Are any respectable Chinese merchants engaged in gambling ? Oh, that I cannot say. They have
been merchants — ;some of the gaming-house keepers I should think. At all events, the men in Sun Sam
Kee's shop seem very intelligent Chinamen, and can talk about up-country towns and districts. I had a
conversation with one of them, and he told me that he was store-keeping at Singleton, Narrabri, and
other places.
3505. Is fan-tan a fair game ; — have you ever made any money out of it ? No, except one or two small
amounts ; but I reckon it is about as unfair a game as there is.
3506. Can you play any European games ? Yes ; I can play all kinds of games of cards.
3507. Do the Chinese play any other games ? No ; at least the only other game I have played in a
Chinaman's is draughts.
3508. Have you ever known any immorality amongst the Chinese in Lower George-street ? No ; I never
saw anything of it. 3509.
272— M
90 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 3509. Mr. McKillop.] Are you aware that any of these bankers and croupiers came into the Colony very
_ a _3 Poor> an(i have made large suras of money by running these fan-tan houses ? Tes.
25jTtl891 ^'"10- Do you know any of them personally V Yes.
^ ■' ' 3511. Can you name one or two ? I do not know their names.
3512. Would you kindly forward their names to the Secretary ? Tes ; one of them is called " Masher."
3513. "What is his name ? I think it is Ah Kee. He came here just as they began to stop the Chinese
coming to the Colony. He was in one of the Chinese boats at Miller's Point, and offered £50 to anybody
who would get him ashore. I do not know who earned the £50, but he got ashore.
3514. Is he a rich man ? Yes.
Long Pen called and examined : —
Long Pen. 3515. Mr. Abigail."] "Where do you live ? In Poster-street.
"■— *-— n 3516. How long have you been in the Colony ? I have been in this country ten years. Before that I
25 Sept., 1891. was living in Melbourne.
3517. "What business are you in ? I used to keep a garden at Albert Gee's place, and since then I have
been an interpreter to my countryman.
3518. Have you been employed by the police to do any work for them ? Oh, well, I have done work for
them in cases where I have been wanted. I used to be interpreter at Parramatta.
3519. You have a thorough knowledge of the Chinese gambling-houses in Sydney ? I have heard of
them.
3520. You know where they are ? Oh, sometimes I have been in the bad places.
3521. You have seen the gambling carried on in these places — in Goulburn-street and George-street ?
Yes.
3522. And you have seen plenty of Europeans inside gambling ? Sometimes I have seen a lot of English
people going in and out, but I do not know that they have been gambling.
3523. Have you been in whilst gambling has been carried on ? Very seldom.
3524. But you have seen it ? I saw it a few weeks ago in Lower G-eorge-street.
3525. You saw gambling carried on there ? Yes.
3526. At what places ? It was at the place from which they were locked up.
3527. You mean Moy Ping's, I suppose ? Yes.
3528. Will you look at these white papers posted outside the houses on the photographs ; — what do they
say ? I have not got my glasses with me, so cannot see them very well.
3529. Have you given the police information about gambling being carried on in any of these places ?
Not about gambling being carried on at the places of which you have photos. About three years ago I
reported about gambling being carried on at Sun Sam Kee's.
3530. What was the result of that ; — did the police take action against him ? Oh, they said, " It is very
hard to catch them." The inspector said that he would have to get a warrant out for them. So I went
to Mr. Melville, at Newtown.
3531. You are opposed to Chinese gambling, I presume? Yes.
3532. It is a very bad thing ? Very.
3533. At all events, you gave the police information that gambling was being carried on at Sun Sam
Kee's? Yes.
3534. And the police told you that it was very difficult to get in ? Yes.
3535. Did they ever give you anything for the information that you supplied to them ; — did they ever pay
you for it? No.
3536. Then why did you ever give them the information ? Because a friend of mine lost a lot of money
there.
3537. Do you know a lot of your countrymen who have lost large sums of money there ? Oh, there are
plenty besides English people.
3538. Why did not the police take action when you gave them this information ? Oh, you see I had no
power to compel them to.
3539. But do you believe that the Chinese pay the police not to take action ? I am not sure ; it looks
like it, because they would not do their duty.
3540. How many times have you complained to the police ? About a dozen times.
3541. Did convictions ever follow, or did the police take no action in any of those dozen cases ? No, sir ;
they took no action whatever.
3542. And on none of those occasions did they give you anything in the shape of money ? No ; they
never gave me money. I did not ask them to.
3543. What reason did they assign for not taking action ? They said, " Well, we will look after that.
Do not bother me. We are so busy. You are always against your countrymen."
3544. Mr. Hawthorne.] They did not seem to like you to go and tell them ? No, sir.
3545. Mr. Abigail."] Have you any reason for going against your countrymen except that you are
opposed to gambling ? Because some of my relatives and friends had lost money I advised them to stop
gambling, although I could not stop gambling going on. On one occasion I tried to stop them
smoking opium.
MONDAY, 28 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
fireaent: —
The Mayor op Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING-, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbesident.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STTTAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Long Pen recalled and examined : —
Long Pen. 3546. President.] What are you — what calling do you follow? I had a garden, but I sold that, and am
z— -^a^-^ now acting as interpreter for my countrymen.
28Sept.,1891. 3547. Where do you live ? At No. 40, Poster-street.
3548. Do you go down Lower George-street much ? Very seldom. 3549.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE ET1DENCE.
n
3549. I want you to tell me what Chinese societies are in existence in Lower George-street ? There is j,on„ pen.
one for sending Chinese skeletons home to China. ^_ ^j^~\
3550. Is there not a secret society of Chinese in Sydney the objects of which are illegal? I heard, two 28 Sept.-, 1891.
or three months ago, that in consequence of the Government speaking about the gambling, the gamblers
held a meeting.
3551. "Where did they meet ? At a Chinese store, kept by Sun Sam War.
3552. "Where is that situated ? In Lower George-street.
3553. "Were you present at that meeting? No, sir.
3554. "Were many Chinese there ? A good number were there.
3555. All the proprietors of the gambling-houses; — were they there ? A lot of people were there, so I
heard.
3556. What business was transacted at that meeting ? They had a talk about the Europeans rising
against the gambling, and it was pointed out that they (the Europeans) had gambling amongst themselves,
just the same as the Chinese.
3557. What other business did they do ? One of them, Pow Chee, an interpreter, said he would answer
what had appeared in the newspapers, but he did not do so.
3558. Did they do any business at all ? No ; that is all.
3559. Was any money subscribed at that meeting ? No.
3560. Did they say anything about the police ? It was said that people reported about gambling, and
said the police got tips, but nobody could prove that.
3561. Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether any of your countrymen who run these gambling-
houses have ever paid the police any money ? No, sir.
3562. Do you think that they do ? I do not know. I cannot say that.
3563. Do you know who called that meeting at Sun Sam War's. Was it called by circular — by a written
paper? No, there was no writing — they just called the meeting.
3564. Did you ever get a letter to go to a meeting ? No.
3565. Do you know a society called the Loon Tee Tong ? Tes ; I have heard of it.
3566. What is the object of the society, do you know ? I have heard its fund is contributed to by the
gambling-shops in this way : For every £1 that is won, 3d. is deducted and given to this fund, and the
money saved in that way is used to pay the lawyers' expenses in case there is a row in the gambling-shops
and the Chinamen get into trouble.
3567. That is what they pay 3d. in the £1 for ? Tes.
3568. Would they not also pay the police to avoid prosecution ? I have heard so, but I do not know it
of my own knowledge.
3569. Who is the head of the Loon Tee Tong ? Kum Sing, and another one named Tuen Tah.
3570. Where are they now ? Somewhere on the Kocks.
3571. Have they got much money ? I do not know.
3572. Tou say this money was subscribed to the Loon Tee Tong to supply the lawyers ? Tes.
3573. How many times have they paid the lawyers ? A few times, I think.
3574. Not many times ? No.
3575. Has the society got much money ? I have said I do not know how much. Tou see, it is done
privately.
3576. Is there a branch of the Loon Tee Tong in Goulburn-street ? It is all round — everywhere.
3577. If one of your countrymen were fined at the Police Court in connection with gambling, would the
Loon Tee Tong pay the fine ? Tes.
3578. Have you never heard of them paying any money to the police to avoid a prosecution? I have
heard of such a thing, but I cannot swear it.
3579. Tou have heard it mentioned that they would do so ? Tes.
3580. Have you heard your own countrymen say so ? Tes ; Sun Sam Kee has said it, in Lower George-
street.
3581. He has said, in your presence, that the funds of that society would be used to corrupt the police ?
Sun Sam Kee said to me, " I do not care who comes to catch us ; if we spend £100 we are right."
3582. Sun Sam Kee said that? Tes. He lives at 381, 1 think, Lower George -street.
3583. Does he carry on a gambling-saloon ? Tes.
3584. Did he tell you this himself ? Tes.
3585. And do you know whether he told others of your countrymen ? A lot of people heard it.
3586. Do you believe that Sun Sam Kee has paid money to the police himself? I do not say so.
3587. But you have reason to believe so, from what he said to you in the presence of your countrymen ?
That is the reason. Some time ago I went to the police and told them that gambling was carried on
there, but the policeman refused to go.
3588. Has Sun Sam Kee ever been summoned or prosecuted, to your knowledge ? Tes ; he was fined
£40 one time for being a banker.
3589. How long ago was that ? Four years ago, nearly. I gave information to Mr. Melville, and in
consequence of that they were fined £40. The police refused to take action.
3590. Has Sun Sam Kee ever been fined since ? No.
3591. Have you gone to Mr. Melville or the police since then ? Not for Sun Sam Kee.
3592. Have you gone on account of anyone else ? Tes ; in connection with some opium cases in Campbell-
street.
3593. Tes, and who did you inform of that ? Excuse me, I will tell you all I know about it : In Campbell-
street, one time, a European went into Hung On's store to buy some opium, and the European refused to
pay what he asked for it. The opium-box was on the counter. They had a dispute about it, and the
European called Constable Gardiner and another constable in, and they had a row in the shop. I could
see through a glass door, aDd was watching all the time. I saw Constable Gardiner coming out, and I
said to him, " Tou know opium selling is contrary to the law — it is a slow poison, and that man has no
license." Gardiner asked me what my name was, and where I lived, as he might want me, and two days
after he served me with a subpoena to give evidence in a case against the storekeeper, who was convicted,
and fined £10 and costs.
359-4, Who paid the money ? He refused to pay the money, and appealed against the conviction,
3595.
92 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MIXUTES 03? EVIDENCE.
Long Pen. 3595, How did the appeal go? The whole of the Chinese storekeepers down George-street were
'"^ * told of it.
28Sept.,1891 3595. Did they pay the money ? Let me tell you. After that I think about £5 was subscribed by fifty-
different subscribers, and a meeting was held, at which it was stated that Long Pen [the witness himself]
was going to find out who was selling opium, and stop them carrying on their nefarious calling. After
that there was a meeting of the storekeepers three times a week. I went back to Waterloo, but I told
Constable Hill how to find out another opium-seller— Tong Yew Chong— and when the case came on he
was fined £10. Solicitor Williamson asked the magistrate to reduce th9 fine, and I think the magistrate
took off £2 10s. It cost £14 altogether. That case was also appealed against. After that the Loon
Tee Tong called a meeting and proposed to pay £300 to take my life.
3597. Now, I want you to answer this question : — You say they offered a reward of £300 to take your
life? Yes.
3598. Who did that ? Tong Yew Chong.
3599. Is he a Chinese storekeeper ? Yes.
3600. In G-oulburn-street ? No, Waterloo.
3601. He offered his countrymen, or some of them, £300 to have you killed ? Yes.
3602. Were you ever assaulted by any of your countrymen ? Yes ; I was nearly killed.
3603. That was after this meeting you speak of ? Yes.
3604. Where was this assault committed? In the Waterloo Chinese camp.
3605. What were you doing there ? I went to see my friends.
3606. And they assaulted and beat you ? Yes.
3607. How long ago is that ? It is a little over three years ago.
3608. Did you prosecute the men who assaulted you ? Yes.
3609. Were they punished? Yes; they got four months hard labour.
3610. How many of them ? Two — one Tong Yee Chong and Ah Sing.
3611. Were they members of the Loon Yee Tong ? Yes, both of them.
3612. Will the members of the Loon Yee Tong, if they are so directed by the officers of the society, "
assault or beat any of their countrymen who may have given evidence against them ? Yes.
3613. Do you know whether those men got any portion of the £300 for assaulting you ? I do not know
that.
3614. You think they probably got some payment? I do not know, but I think they must have got some
benefit out of it. I did hear that they got £3 a week while they were in gaol from the society.
3615. You have heard that ? Yes.
3616. Is the Loon Yee Tong in existence now ? I think they had some falling out some time ago.
3617. Is it in existence now — that is what I want to know ? Yes, I think they have joined again.
3618. This £300 which you say was offered for your life, was that Loon Yee Tong money, or was it to be
subscribed by the Chinese private firms ? All the Chinese storekeepers were in it — they would all come
and put in together.
3619. Do the Chinese storekeepers in Lower George-street know it is illegal to deal in opium ? Yes. It
is under the Poisons Act.
3620. Have the Chinese who sell it a license ? No, they have tried to get it and cannot.
3621. The Government will not give it them? No.
3622. And yet they sell it to their countrymen ? Yes.
3623. Then the cause of your being unpopular with them is that you have informed the authorities of
their selling illegally ? Yes, that is the cause. I went to Mr. Inspector Potter and Mr. Lee.
3624. Now I want you to tell me about Mr. Gouldtown ? I do not speak to him.
3625. Do you know him ? Yes.
3626. How long has he been in this country ? About four years, I think.
3627. Is he a member of the Loon Yee Tong ? I do not know.
3628. Is he a respectable Chinese ? I do not think he is very respectable. He puts through any Chinese
cabiDet-makers who want to go insolvent. •
3629. Where is Gouldtown now ? I do not know where he went.
3630. Do you know why he left Sydney ? I do not know what he went away for.
3631. Was he sent away by any of the Chinese merchants ? I never heard that.
3632. Mr. Abigail.] Do you know when he went away ? No.
3633. Mr. Hawthorne^] How long is it since you spoke to Mr. Gouldtown ? I never spoke to him since
I knew him.
3634. You must have spoken to him if you know him ? No.
3635. How have you formed this bad opinion of Mr. Gouldtown ? When I was in the shop of a man
named Han Sing, a carpenter, who was being sold off one time, I saw Gouldtown with him. He was
getting him put through. ,
3636. Do you think Gouldtown would take your business away from you ? No, I can look after myself.
3637. How do you live now ? I get a living from my business as interpreter for my countrymen, and
the English.
3638. You act as interpreter for the Chinese both in Sydney and the country ? Yes.
3G39. How much do you get for interpreting ? Sometimes, when the place is far distant, I get paid by
mileage — so much a mile.
3640. If you have been an informer how is it your countrymen trust you to interpret for them ? They
can employ who they like as interpreter.
3641. Have you never been put out of the Chinese houses you have entered at any time ? No.
3642. Where you not thrown out at Waterloo ; at the camp there ? That was about the opium case.
3643. But you were put out then ? That was when they tried to kill me ; yes ; that was the only time.
3644. Was that because you were an informer ? Yes.
3645. Por no other reason at all ? No.
3646. Have you ever known of a case of a Chinaman giving presents to the police ? No ; I never saw
that.
3647. Do you know Inspector Atwill ? Yes ; I have been in his office two or three times.
3648. Have ever you been locked up in your life ? No, sir. I have been in the country thirty-six years,
and I have never stained my name jet. 3649.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 93
3649. Have you ever heard of any presents being given to the police at any time ? I never saw it. Long Pen.
3650.^ Have you ever heard of the police being presented with anything ? No ; I have only heard about t * *
Sun Sam Kee, and he says nobody can stop his gambling. 28Sept.,189I.
3651. "Why did he say that; for what reason ; did he say he would know before the warrants were issued,
or did he lead you to believe that the police would inform him before they would come and make a raid
upon his place ? Sun Sam Kee's mate has told me that the police would inform some other of my
countrymen.
3652. That the police would always tell them before they made a raid ? Tes.
3653. Have you been in any of the Chinese gambling-shops lately ? Tes.
3654'. Have you been in Pun Num's ? No.
3655. Have you ever been in Ting Sing's No.
3656. Or Han Kee and Doung Lee's? I think about a week ago I went to Han Kee's.
3657. Were they gambling when you went there ? Tes.
3658. Was it in the daytime ? Tes ; about 3 o'clock.
3659. How many do you think were in the room with you ? There was not a great number. I did not
stop very long.
3660. How many would you say ? About seven or eight.
3661. Were they Chinese or Europeans ? All Chinese.
3662. "Were they seeming to lose much money ? They were winning and losing. I did not stay long ;
about five minutes.
3663. Did they ask you to go out ? No.
3664. Did they make no objection at all to your being there ? No.
3665. Did they stop playing while you were there ? No.
3666. They took no notice of you being there ? No.
3667. Mr. Quong Tart.} How long is it since you had the vegetable garden ? A little more than four
years.
3668. Did the garden pay you ? Certainly.
3669. How many partners had you ? I had twelve men working for me. The garden was my own.
3670. Did you not have a law suit with your brother over the garden ? No.
3671. Not in Parramatta ? No.
3672. Are you quite sure ? Tes.
3673. Do you not remember one of your partners threatening to take your life unless you gave him a
share of the money ? No ; he never did that. One man who arranged to buy my garden came to lift the
deposit of £30, as he could not afford to pay the money, and I had a few words with him ; that was all.
3674. Who bought your share when you left ? Sing Toong.
3675. That was in Auburn ? Tes.
3676. When you left there where did you go to live ? In Auburn Grove, about a mile and a half
distant from the garden.
3677. When did you go to live at Waterloo ? A few months after.
3678. What has been your business since then ? I live by interpreting for the Chinese.
3679. Tou call yourself a Chinese reformer I suppose ; you desire to do good for your countrymen ?
Tes ; I want to make them lead good lives.
3680. Tell us a few of the Chinese whom you have reformed ? There is one called Mew Chong, and Lee Sam.
3681. In what occupations are those men engaged ? They are gardeners.
3682. If they are gardeners I suppose they are industrious men ; — how would they want reforming ? I
advised them not to gamble.
3683. Tou do not gamble yourself ? No ; I did at one time, but not now.
3684. How long is it since you left off gambling ? A couple of years.
3685. Now, did you not win a sum of money in a lottery last year ? No ; I never won any.
3686. Did you not win some money in a Campbell-street lottery last year ? No ; my wife marked a
ticket in a lottery.
3687. Who paid for it ? My wife.
3688. Is vour wife a Chinese woman ? No ; her father was an Indian, and she is a native of Melbourne.
3689. How much did she win ;— £20 ? Tes.
3690. Are you in debt to your landlord for rent at Waterloo ? I can afford to pay the landlord.
3691. Tou say that you interpret in a lot of cases, and that is how you make a living ? Tes.
3692. In what case did you last act as interpreter ? In the case of Chong Tee up at "Walgett.
3693. What was the nature of that case ? I think it was a fighting case — arose out of a row.
3694. How many cases have you interpreted for during the last twelve months ? More than a dozen.
3695. Name some of them ? There was the case arising out of a row in Wexford- street.
3696. How long ago was that ? About eight or nine months ago.
3697. How much did you get for interpreting in that case ? That is my business.
3698. I want you to answer the question ; you say you live by interpreting, and that you have had over a
dozen cases during the last twelve months, and I ask you what remuneration you received for the case
you have just spoken of ? That case, I think, occupied about two weeks, and I charged a guinea a day —
about 10 guineas.
3699. Can you mention any other cases ; I want to know a few of them ? There was the case of Ting
Tow, where an Englishman killed a Chinaman's horse.
3700. How much did you get in that instance ? That ease was taken to the District Court, and I got
about £10. I also got a case at Walgett that brought me £40.
3701. Mr. JIawthorne.} Do you get a free pass on the railways, or do you have to pay your own fare ? I
get paid for mileage — expenses and all.
3702. Mr. Quong Tart.} Tou say you do not gamble;— do you smoke opium? No; I used to, but I
knocked it off.
3703. How long ago is it since you knocked off smoking opium ? About eight months ago.
3704. How many years were you smoking opium ? About six years.
3705. Now, since you have been such a great reformer, telling the people not to smoke and gamble, and
informing on different opium-sellers, tell us where you got the opium from to smoke during the six years
vou made a practice of it ? I got it from different people. 3706.
94
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Long Pen.
28 Sept., 1891.
Because I did not know it was illegal to sell opium at that
Only lately.
H.
Mr.
Saunders.
2Sgept.,1891
3706. "Why did you not inform upon them ?
time.
3707. How long hare you known that it was illegal to sell opium ?
3708. How long ? About four years.
3709. And how long do you say you have knocked off smoking opium ? About eight months.
3710. Where did you get the opium to smoke during the time you knew it was illegal to sell it ? From
China.
3711. Did you import it? My father sent it to me.
3712. How long ago did he send the opium to you? About five years ago.
3713. What quantity did you get in that way ? About five tin cases, containing about 100 small lins.
3714. Did you have a bill of lading ? My father sent to me through one of the Chinese stores here.
3715. What is the name of the store ? The store is no longer in existence.
3716. What was the name ? Yuen Eook King.
3717. Where is he now ? I do not know.
3718. Did the opium you got from your father last you five years? Yes ; if I was short any time, I
would send somebody to buy it.
3719. You say you are a reformer, and that you want to put down the gambling evil. I want to see
whether you are sincere or not. You say five tins lasted you five years ? There were twenty small tins
inside the large tins — that made 100 tins altogether.
3720. How much money would that be valued at ? About £120.
3721. What duty did you have to pay on that ? I never paid it ; the storekeeper paid it.
3722. You say your father sent it to you ? Yes ; he sent it through the storekeeper.
3723. Do you remember the month in which you got this parcel of opium ? No ; it is a long time to
remember that.
3724. Did you get a bill of lading ? No.
3725. Did you pay any money? No ; my father paid the money. He bought the opium, and sent it
through the storekeeper to me.
3726. Is your father living now ? No.
3727. How long ago is it since he died ? About a year ago.
3728. He was a very good father to you to send you opium, I suppose? Well; I used to smoke. I
could not help it.
3729. Do you think it well for a father in China to send opium to his son — is it not a great wrong — a
great crime to do so ? It is done in a good many cases.
3730. Is it not a fact that you have got money from gambling-house keepers by threatening to inform
upon them to the police ? No ; it is not true.
3731. Do you not go round these gambling-houses from door to door, getting a few shillings from this one
and a few from that one ? No ; certainly not.
3732. Are you not really a disturber of the Chinese, rather than a reformer — do you not make them bad
rather than good ? No ; if that were so, they would report me.
3733. Do you not smoke opium now ? No.
3734. Suppose we were to go to your place now would we not find an opium pipe ready for smoking ? I
have the opium pipe all the time. I never broke it.
3735. Do you keep that pipe for yourself ? No; you can go to my place if you like. But suppose you
get a ton of opium in my place, you never saw me smoke it.
3736. Have you not got any bribes from the gambling-houses in connection with your informing operations ?
No ; I never got any benefit from the gambling-houses.
3737. Seeing the evidence you have given about yourself, do you consider you have benefited the country,
and that your work is appreciated by the respectable portion of the community — European or Chinese ?
I could not say that ; the public would be like a family, some would be benefited and some would not.
3738. Have you any suggestion to make for improving the condition of that section of the Chinese
community complained of as being immoral and dirty ? I think notices should be put up outside the
places, directing them to be kept clean and tidy ; I think that would have a good effect.
3739. What do you know about warrants having been issued at one time by the police in connection with
some of these gambling-houses ? I do not know.
3740. You said here a little while ago that warrants had been issued to your kno wledge ? Yes.
3741. Were those warrants executed? Yes ; they got Doong Ling Kong.
3742. At any time were there warrants issued and not put into execution ? Yes ; I remember that I
went to see Mr. Melville, and in consequence of that they were not executed.
3743. How long ago was that ? About five years ago.
3744. Have you heard of any of a recent date ? I have heard of it.
3745. You do not know of your own knowledge ? No.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. Henry Saunders called and examined : —
3746. President.'] Where do you reside? At 59, Gloucester-street, Miller's Point.
3747. Have you been in the habit of attending the gambling-houses in Lower George-street, for amuse-
ment or curiosity ? I have visited them on several occasions.
3748. About what time did you first visit them ? About 1883 or 1884.
3749. That would be about seven years ago ? Yes ; it is about eight years ago.
3750. Have you been a constant visitor to those places? No ; not a very constant visitor.
3751. How many times a month since 1884 do you think you visited these places ? About onr:e a week
I should say.
3752. You have a fair knowledge of the customs and practices of the gambling-shops there ? Yes.
3753. Were you accustomed to visit the whole of them, or only one or two in particular ? Every house
^ery nearly.
3.751. Has your experience been confined to the lower end of George-street ? Yes,
3755. Have you played the game of fan-tan yourself ? Yes. 3756,
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OV EVIDENCE.
95
3756. Have you ever embarked in what is called the lottery ? Tes. _ „ ,
3757. Have you lost much money at that ? Well there are losses and gains. HJSaunders.
3758. On the whole do you think you have lost considerably ? Tes. 28S t 1891
3759. "Were you ever disturbed while playing by visits from the police, either in plain clothes or in " ''
uniform ? Not to my knowledge.
3760. You were never present when the police disturbed the gamblers ? No.
3761. "Were you ever present when the police came in and did not stop the gambling ? I think I have
seen them come into the outside shop, where the tickets are served out when there has been some
row on among them.
3762. You have never seen a policeman, either in plain clothes or in uniform, in the room in which they
play fan-tan ? No ; not in my experience.
3763. Have you ever suspected that the police connived at the Chinese gambling— winked at it ? They
know as well as I do that it is carried on there, of course.
3764. It is a matter of public notoriety ? Yes.
3765. Have you ever seen the police in private conversation with the proprietors of the gambling-
saloons ? No.
3766. Do you know any of the police in Lower George-street ? I know all of them.
3767. Tell us the names of those you know have been on duty there while gambling has been publicly
carried on ? I only know their nick-names, not their proper names.
3768. Do you know Constable Adair ? Yes ; I know him.
3769. Do you know Mr. Mathers, of the Bootmakers' Society ? Yes.
3770. Did you ever visit any of these houses with him ? Yes ; in years gone by.
3771. Have you ever had any conversation with him as to the dilatoriness of the police in not prosecuting
the Chinese for carrying on this gambling traffic ? Not to my recollection.
3772. Did he ever tell you that he suspected the police of taking bribes ? He might have done, but I
cannot remember.
3773. Did he ever tell you of any particular incident that occurred in one of these Chinese gambling-
dens when you were not with him ? No.
3774. Did he ever tell you of a visit being paid by the police to one of these places while gambling was
going on — that is, in the inner room ? Wo ; not to my recollection.
3775. Did he ever give you any information, or converse with you upon a certain action of Constable
Adair when present at a gambling-table ? No.
3776. Did you ever hear it alleged that Constable Adair, when making a raid upon a Chinese gambling-
house, took the money that was on the table ? No.
3777. You know nothing whatever about any transaction of that kind ? No.
3778. And you have no knowledge yourself that the police do take bribes for winking at gambling? No.
3779. Have you ever heard, upon reliable authority, that they do ? I have heard rumours about it.
37Qr>. And which you think are reasonable, seeing that this gambling is not suppressed when it might be;
is that the view you take ? Yes.
3781. Mr. Abigail.] Is gambling carried on at Lower George-street as bad as ever ? Yes.
3782. The people walking up and down the street in front of these shops know it ? Yes.
3783. And consequently, the police must know it also ? Yes.
3784. That being so, and as they are paid out of the public purse to suppress anything which is contrary
to law, is it not reasonable to infer that there must be some strong reason why they do not suppress this
Chinese gambling ? I do not know about that. I know it is carried on at the present moment, and I
can prove it. In fact, it is well known. It is going on Saturday and Sunday, and every day in the week.
3785. Do you know the meaning of the white paper notices which appear outside a number of the
Chinese houses, like these photographs ? Yes ; it signifies that gambling is carried on there.
3786. Do you know these shops [Handing witness three photographs]'? Yes; I have been in two of
them — Doong Lee's and another.
3787. Is there any difficulty in gaining admission to these places ? Yes ; there is great difficulty unless
you are known. If you have a ticket, and if you have got money on you, they will let you in anywhere.
3788. Could a private-clothes policeman obtain admission in the same way ? Certainly they could, any
time they wanted to, if they disguise themselves.
3789. Are you of opinion that this Chinese gambling bas a demoralising effect upon the community
roundabout? Prom my experience during the last seven or eight years it has, certainly. It has been
disastrous to a great many, myself included.
3790. Have you ever seen any women in these places ? No.
3791. Any youths ? Oh, yes ; they are very strong down there, especially in one or two of the houses,
two or three doors from Han Kee's.
3792. I suppose when one follows this fan-tan gambling it becomes an infatuation ? To some people it
does.
3793. Have you known many men to spend the whole of their earnings in these gambling-shops ? Yes ;
a great many have done it this last year.
3794. Married men, as well as single ? Yes ; married men especially.
3795. You have no doubt whatever that anybody walking up and down George-street in front of these
places, can see that gambling is going on there ? Yes ; because there is no business carried on in these
places whatsoever. They may have a few cigars or a little fruit in the front shop-window ; but there are
no signs of ordinary business with Europeans at all, and yet Europeans may be seen constantly going in
and out.
3796. Have you ever heard of any of the winnings of these gambling-houses being set apart as a fund
for any particular society ? No.
3797. Out of the fan-tan winnings is any portion kept by the bank ? They keep Id. out of every
shilling — that is their bank.
3798. Do you know anything about opium-smoking down there ? No.
3799. You have not tried it yourself ? No. I draw the line at that. It is bad enough to be there.
3800. Have you ever met any of the police there gambling ? No.
3801. When off duty, I mean ? No.
3802.
.06
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
H.
Mr.
Saunders.
28 Sept., 1891.
3802. Have you noticed whether any of the police who usually do duty in that portion of the city appear
to be on very friendly terms with the Chinese residents who keep these gambling-houses ? I never see
them much down there.
3803. Have you ever heard anything that would lead you to believe that the police have accepted bribes
from the gambling-house keepers ? I have heard people talk about it, but I know nothing beyond what
I have heard.
3804. What is your own opinion — do you think it likely that they have received bribes ? I would not
say one way or the other ; but I must say to me it looks very curious.
3805. "Why curious ? "Well, I remember one instance, about four or five years ago, when they made a
raid upon Ah Ping's place, when they got about twenty or thirty Europeans ; and about a month ago
they got them again. That is the only place they seem to make a raid upon.
3806. And you know of your own knowledge, as a practical gambler, that there are other places as bad,
if not worse, than this place where they made the raid ? Yes.
3807. The inference you draw from that is that the men who keep the house upon which these raids have
been made do not bribe the police, and the other houses do ? I do not know that I can go as far as that.
I would not like to say unless I was sure.
3808. So that it comes to this — that you really have no practical evidence to offer that the police have at
any time received bribes ? No.
3809. Mr. Quong Tart.'] You have had a great deal of experience about that quarter, and fully recognise
the evil of the Chinese gambling ; — can you suggest anything which would effectively put down the evil ;
or do you think the police could do it under the existing law ? If the police followed their duty closely
on a Sunday they could suppress it, I daresay. By that I mean that if instead of watching street corners
that day of all days, as gambling is carried on more on a Sunday than on any other day, they looked after
what is going on in the Chinese gambling-dens they would stand a better chance of dealing with the evil.
[The witness withdrew.]
WEDNESDAY, 30 SEPTEMBER, 1891.
$r£S£iit:—
The Mayor op Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
PRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-President.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG- TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STITAPT HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. Jas. Ireland called and examiued : —
Mr. 3810. Mr. McKillop.] Where do you reside, Mr. Ireland ? No. 14, Gloucester-street, Dawes' Point.
J. Ireland. 3811. Have you been residing long in that locality ? Yes, for twenty-five years. I was bora there.
r~^^ — <> 3812. Have you at any time of your life been connected with Chinese gambling ? Not with the gambling.
30Sept.,1891. i Worked in several of those places when I served my time. I am a gastltter by trade.
38 L3. Whom were you working for? Mr. Alex. M'Lood, plumber and gas-fitter, Lower George-street.
3814. How long have you worked for him ? Eight years. I served my apprenticeship with him.
3815. Does your employer do much work for the Chinese ? Yes ; he does all the plumbing work down there.
3816. Through doing that work I suppose you were frequently in their houses ? Yes, I was all over them.
3817. Did you see a great deal of what was going on there ? Yes, I saw a great deal there.
3818. Do you know any members of the police force? Yes ; through living there so long I know a good
many of them.
3819. Do you know Constable Carson ? Yes.
3820. Do'you know Sergeant Higgins ? Yes.
3821. Do you know Constable Adair ? Yes.
3822. Do you know Senior-constabie Beadman ? Yes.
3823. Do you know ex-Constable Quealey, who was dismissed from the force ? Yes.
3824. Do you live close to any of the policemen you have named ? I live next door but one to Sergeant
Higgins.
3825. Do you know of any presents being made to Sergeant Higgins, or any other member oi the force ; —
I must tell you that we do not want you to hide anything in this matter ? I understand. I will give you
all I know.
3826. Have you ever seen Sergeant Higgins presented with any presents in the shape of tea or ginger ?
No. But I have heard of such things.
3827. You do not know it yourself ? No.
3828. Do you know of any presents being given to Constable Beadman? No. I do not know where he
lives. Sergeant Higgins is the only one I know anything about.
3829. Do you know of presents having been made by the Chinese to any member of the police force ?
Not to my knowledge personally.
3830. Is Sergeant Higgins possessed of much property ?
3831. In the locality in question ? Yes.
3832. Has he any other property you know of ? I believe he has some at North Shore ; but I do not
know whether it is his own or not.
3833. You know Constable Adair ? Yes.
3834. Has he any property to.your knowledge ? I cannot say.
3835. Do you know of any other policeman having property ? No.
houses. He lives next door but two from me.
3836. How long has Kearney left the police force ? I cannot say.
3837. Can you not make a rough guess ? About four years perhaps. I was latelv working at Dalgetty's,
where he is special constable.
3838. Sergeant Higgins is still in the police force ? Yes.
3839. How many years has he been in the force ? He was in the force, before I was born I think— as
long as I can remember.
3840. What age are you ? Twenty-five.
3841. In following your occupation as a plumber and gas-fitter in these Chinese gambling-houses, have
you seen much gambling carried on ? Yes. 3842.
Yes, he has ten houses, I think.
ex-Constable Kearney has two
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 97.
3842. "While you have heen working there have you seen any of the police force enter those places ? I Mr.
cannot say I have. J- Ireland.
3843. Either in plain clothes or in uniform ? No. s~^**^-^.
3844. In your experience, can persons go in and out of the gambling-saloons with impunity? No. It 30SePt->1891*
is a hard job to get in. That was my experience. They had a man at the door, and I had to make him
understand I was going there to work.
3845. Did any of the keepers of these dens, or anyone connected with them, ever tell you personally that
they had made presents to the police ? No.
3846. Can you inform the Commission whether, in any of these places you have been into, there are any
underground places or cellars that you have put gas-pipes in, for the purpose of carrying on gambling, or
where it could be carried on ? Below the street level — yes.
3847. Mr. Hawthorne.] In whose houses were these underground fittings put ? Some of them are pulled
down now— where the old " Eoyal Albert Hotel " used to stand.
3848. Are there any buildings in existence now where you have been at any time employed fixing up gas-
fittings beneath the ground floor ? I think there are one ox two there.
3849. Do not think — be sure ? It is two years since I worked at them.
3850. But you must be able to tell whether the buildings are in existence there or not ? Yes ; there is
one immediately opposite On Chong's.
3851. Have you been iu any of these buildings shown on the photographs [produced] ? No ; I have
never worked in them. The buildings I refer to are further up the street.
3852. Have you any personal knowledge of the gambling carried on in Lower George-street ? I have
never played the game myself.
3853. But you have been in these places while the gambling has been going on ? Tes.
3854. Have you ever seen any policemen, either in , plain clothes or in uniform while you have been
there ? No.
3855. Have you seen any of the Chinese knocking about in a friendly manner with the police ? I have
seen them speaking to the police.
3856. On very friendly terms apparently ? No ; I could not say that.
3857. Do you know, of your own knowledge — and I want you to answer this question without reserve —
whether any member of the police, at any time, has received a present or presents of any kind from the
Chinese in Lower G-eorge-street or anywhere else ? I have never seen any presents given myself.
3858. Do you know anyone who has seen a present made to the police ? No. Of course you will hear
in conversation at street corners, perhaps, statements made about the police being bribed. It is a common
thing to hear, but that is merely in casual conversation. I have never heard anything definite.
3859. You have heard nothing definite that you could look upon as detrimental to, or reflecting upon, the
character of the police force, or any member of it ? No.
3860. Of or concerning Inspector Atwill, for instance ? No.
3861. Do you think, so far as you have had opportunities of judging, that Inspector Atwill has the
diligence and care to be expected of a man in his position ? Yes.
3862. You have always looked upon him as a trustworthy and capable officer ? Yes ; ever since he has
been down there.
3863. Do you not think him capable of receiving " tip" either from Chinese or Europeans ? No.
3864. Have you had any conversation with any one about your proposed visit here to give evidence before
the Commission ? I have with one or two.
3865. "With men who have been already examined by the Commission ? Yes ; I spoke to Mr.
Armstrong. He told me where to come, and how to get to the room in which the Commission sit.
3866. Was anything said about the evidence you were to give, or the questions you would be asked ?
No ; nothing of that kind.
3867. He did not question or speak to you about the matter in any way ? No ; I may say I am a
member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League.
3868. Have you attended the meetings ? No ; I could not well attend.
3869. Have you paid your subscriptions ? Yes.
3870. You have never been a gambler yourself ? No ; I was only too glad to get out of the places when
I worked there.
3871. Can you name to the Commission any places in existence now in Lower George-street, or any part
of the lower end of the city, where you have fixed gas-fittings in what we would call the cellar, to enable
them to gamble without being detected by the police or any one else ? There are one or two places.
3872. Can you give the names? Up towards No. 191 or No. 192 there are places of that kind.
3873. How many ? There are four places of that kind there. I worked there.
3874. Are they still in existence ? Yes.
3875. And are they occupied by Chinese ? Yes.
3876. Are they used for gambling purposes ? Yes ; I believe so.
3877. On which side of the street are they ? On the right-hand side.
3878. Do you know the place on which the raid was made some time ago ? Yes.
3879. Are these places you mention anywhere near there? No; they are lower down the street,
towards Circular Quay, on the same side of the way.
3880. You do not know the exact number ? No.
3881. Could you tell the names of the occupants if you heard them mentioned ? No ; I never took
notice of the names.
3882. Mr. Abigail.] You said just now that when you you were working at these places you were only
too glad to get out of them, or words to that effect ; — I suppose you had a particular reason for saying
that ? Yes ; the smell used to be something terrible. There was one place especially, with a room about
9 feet or 10 feet square, divided off into three or four compartments.
3883. Do you know the smell of opium ? Yes ; an overpowering, deadly, or suffocating smell.
3884. "Was that the smell you speak of ? No; it was a kind of muck smell— very disgusting. I could
not tell what it was.
3885. You found the place in a dirty state ? Yes.
3886. That was the reason you were glad to get out of it ?
3887 You know that gambling is carried on to a large extent in Lower George-street ? Yes.
272— N " 3888.
*" CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OP ETIDENCE.
J Ireland. ^^- Anyone can see evidence of the fact passing up and down the street ? Yes.
^-__/v—>^ 3889. And therefore the police must know it is carried on to a very large extent ? Of course.
30 Sept. 1891. ^s90. Do you know what is written on the white pieces of paper that are posted up outside theso houses,
' the same as you see on the photograph before you ? No ; I cannot understand that.
3891. You do not know what it means ? No.
3892. Have you ever asked anyone the meaning of it ? No.
3893. Do you know Mr. Kelly, the Secretary of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? I know him fey
eight.
3894. Do you know any prominent member of the League ? I know Mr. Armstrong.
3895. Anyone else ; do you know Mr. Nock ? Yes.
3896. Have you had a conversation within the last month with any member of the League ? Yes.
3S97. Did you tell any member of the League that you could prove the delivery to Sergeant Higgins or
any other member of the police force of parcels of tea or preserved ginger, or anything else ? No.
3898. Then, if anyone has said you would be able to enlighten the Commission with regard to any allega-
tion or rumour of chests of tea or other things being presented to Sergeant Higgins by Chinese in the
neighbourhood, he would be telling an untruth ? I did say that I had heard things were sent up there.
3899. But it was not of your own knowledge ? No;
3900. Whom did you hear it from ? I heard it from many, that things had been sent up to the different
police officers.
3901. You live near Sergeant Higgins ? Yes.
3902. Have you ever seen any chests of tea or Chinese preserves delivered to him, or his wife, or any
member of his family ? No.
3903. Do you know Sergeant Higgins well ? Yes.
3904. Is he a respectable, reliable man, in your opinion ? Yes.
3905. How many houses did you say he has ? Ten houses.
3906. Do you know whether he has any mortgage over them ? That I cannot say.
3907. Do you know the value of the houses Y There are two which let at 22s. 6d. a week ; three at £1
a week ; one he lives in himself, and there are two behind at about 15s. a week.
3908. Do you know anything about his property at the North Shore ? No ; I do not know whether ho
owns it.
3909. Mr. McKillop.] Have you heard of any presents being sent by the Chinese during the Chinese
New Year time ? I have heard that they have, through people speaking one to another.
3910. President.'] Supposing, for the sake of argument, that these presents were sent that you have heard
about during the New Year time ; that they were sent to Sergeant Higgins ; what, in your mind, would
be the value of such presents ; do you think they would be very valuable presents ? I cannot say.
3911 . "Was it a jar of preserved ginger, or was it a chest or a couple of chests of tea, you could tell in
that way ? I do not know.
3912. Supposing such presents as you have heard about were presented, surely you can imagine whether
they were valuable or not ? That is a difficult question.
3913. Mr. McKillop."] Have you observed any members of the police at any time wearing expensive
jewellery, unbecoming men in their station in life, or in other words inconsistent with their ordinary
earnings, such as diamond rings? No ; I have never seen them with diamond rings.
3914. Mr. Quong Tart.] "While you were working in these places you have mentioned, did you notice any
immoral practices carried on there ? I have seen a few women there in one house.
3915. Were they respectable women, or women of the low class ? One of them was supposed to be the
wife of the man who kept the house, and there were also two or three young girls there who were supposed
to be assistants or servants.
3916. You are a gasfitter ? Yes.
3917. Have you worked in any European houses of a low character ? No ; it was only in that district I
used to work.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. Alfred Law called and examined : —
Mr. A. Law. g91g Mr Abigail.] Where do you live, Mr. Law ? At No. 113, Gloucester-street.
rtoS*~t~*Tsqi 3919. How long have you lived there ? For the last ten or fifteen years.
' 3920. What is your business ? Clerk in a shipping office.
3921. Are you a member of any society ? No.
3922. Any Chinese society ? No.
3923. Do you know if there are any Chinese secret societies in Sydney ? No.
3924. Have you ever given subscriptions for the defence of Chinamen taken to the Police Court on any
charge whatever ? No.
3925. Then if anybody has made this statement, that you have subscribed to a fund for the purpose of
defending Chinese in court that would be untrue ? Yes.
3926. Do you visit the Chinese gambling-houses in Lower George-street ? No.
3927. You do not gamble ? No.
3928. Do you use opium ? No.
3929. Have you any knowledge of the gambling that is carried on in Lower George-street ? I have
no idea.
3930. President^] Do you know any one connected with a newspaper called Truth ? No.
3931. Are you quite sure ? Yes.
3932. If anyone has stated that you have contributed to a Chinese Sustentation Eund to provide for the
defence of Chinese who may be prosecuted, or pay the fines of Chinese convicted of any offence or to
bribe the police, or for any other purpose whatsoever, they would be telling an untruth, so far as you are
concerned ? Yes, they would.
3933. I may tell you it has-been stated that you have contributed to such a fund ? Never in my life
3934. Mr. Abigail^ You understand that in giving evidence before this Commission you are in the same
position as if you were giving evidence in the Supreme Court ? Te«, I quite understand that.
3935.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 89
3935. President.'] Are you addicted to gaming in the Chinese gambling-houses ? No. Mr- A' Law-
3936. Mr. McKillop.] Have you a brother, Mr. Law ? Tes. ^— '"■— ->
3937. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Is he older or younger than you ? Older. 30Sepfe,1891.
3938. President.] Do you know your brother's habits ? Tes.
3939. Does he frequent the Chinese gambling-houses ? No.
3940. Would he contribute to the Chinese Sustentation Fund ? I do not think he would.
3941. "What occupation does he follow ? He is in the same office as I am
3942. "What is the name of the firm ? John Gee & Co
3943. That is a Chinese firm? Tes.
3914. Are they connected with any Chinese gambling-houses in any way ? I do not know.
3945. Tou have access to their books, I suppose ? They are all written in English.
3946. And you speak English well ? Tes. All the writing in the office is done in English.
3947. Tou have access to the firm's books ? Tes.
3948. Do the books show that your house has any connection with the Chinese gambling-houses in
Sydney? No.
3949. Does your house do business with them in any way whatever ? No.
3950. Does the firm do shipping business for them ? No ; only with the ieading Chinese merchants.
3951. Tou are quite sure that no money comes into your firm's business from the proprietors of the
Chinese gambling-houses ? Tes, quite sure.
3952. And they have no connection in any way, directly or indirectly, with the Chinese gambling-
houses? No. •
3953. Does your firm ever execute indents for any of the Chinese merchants? No.
3954. "What is your firm's business— is it confined to merely shipping agency business— Custom House
business? Tes.
3955. Have you a cousin of the same name as yourself ? No ; my cousin's name is Moy Mow.
3956. Have you any relative at all whom you know to be addicted to Chinese gambling ? No.
3957. Mr. McKillop.] How many brothers have you? Two.
3958. Are they both employed in the same business ? No ; one is working with Brown & Co., of
Woolloomooloo.
3959. Do both brothers live with you ? One is living at Balmain.
3960. Where is the other living? With me, at 113, Gloucester-street.
3961. Is that one employed in the same office with you? Tes.
3962. Do you know whether your brother has ever communicated with any person connected with the
paper Truth ? I do not know. Not to my knowledge.
3963. Do you know whether there are any houses kept for immoral purposes in Grloucester-street, or
about the Bocks ? I do not know of any.
3964. Have you had any conversation with the keepers of any of the Chinese gambling-dens since you
received the summons to attend the Commission ? No.
3965. Or prior to it ? No.
3966. And you have received no threatening letters, warning you not to give evidence before the Com-
mission ?
3967. President^] Do you know a man named Porder, a reporter, connected with Truth ? No.
3968. Mr. McKillop.] Are there any more Laws, — persons of the same name as yourself — besides those
you have mentioned, in Sydney ? I do not know.
3969. Mr. Haivt?wrne.] Do you know whether your father engages in any way in gambling ? I do not
think so.
3970. Tou have never known him to ? No.
3971. Are you the eldest of your family ? No ; I am the third.
3972. Which is the second eldest ? Thomas.
3973. Is he single ? No ; he is married, and lives at Balmain.
3974. Where is the third one living ? He is living with me and father in Grloucester-street.
3975. Is he married? Tes.
3976. To a European ? Tes.
3977. Does he engage in gambling ? No.
3978. I suppose you do not know all his habits ; he would go about a good deal by himself? I go with
him pretty frequently.
3979. Have you never been inside a fan-tan house in your life ? No.
3980. President.] Have you had any conversation with anyone about coming before this Commission,
either yesterday or the day before ? No, sir.
3981. Tou are a clerk in John Gee & Co., agents for Lorimer, Borne, & Co. ? Tes.
3982. They are shipping agents for booking passages, are they not? Tes ; they book through Chinese
merchants.
3983. That is, if an ordinary Chinaman came to book a passage they would refuse to take his money ; he
would have to book through a Chinese merchant ? Tes.
3984. Tou have heard serious complaints made against the Chinese houses, and gambling in Lower
George. street ? I have read of it in the papers.
3985. Complaints have also been made of the dirty condition of the premises, and the bad smells
emanating from them, and also about young girls being decoyed there for immoral purposes. I want to
know from you if you believe, from your experience, that there is any truth in any of these statements ?
I only know of the places there by passing by on my way home.
3986. Tou say you know nothing at all about gambling ? No.
3987. Mr. Hawthorne.] Have you heard at any time about the police having presents made to them ?
No ; I never heard anything of that kind.
3988. Tou never heard, it mentioned in conversation ? No.
3989. Except in business, you have little intercourse with the Chinese ; — is that so ? Tes ; only in
business.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr.
100 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. Arthur Buchanan called and examined : —
A. Buchanan. 399°- President.] Where do you live, Mr. Buchanan ? At 137, George-street North.
1-. a ,_^ ' 3991. You are a hotelkeeper ? Yes.
30 Sept., 1891. 3992. You have lived there a considerable time ? Yes.
3993. Are you one of the officers of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Yes, the treasurer.
3994. Were you a member of the deputation representing the League which waited on the Colonial
Secretary ? Yes.
3995. And you heard a number of statements made there as to alleged bribery of the police, and the
existence of the gambling-dens in Lower George-street ? Yes, 1 did.
3996. Well now, the Commission would feel very much obliged if you would give them any direct infor-
mation upon the question of police bribery ;— do you know of any case ? No, I do not know of one ; in
fact no one could be more astonished than I was to hear the accusations made. I may mention that the
League was formed, as I took it, to work with the police to put down the Chinese gambling.
3997. You were surprised to hear the charges made against the police ? Yes. I had no idea previously
that they would be made.
3998. Have you ever heard anything to justify a statement of that kind? I do not know anything
personally to justify a charge of the kind against the police.
3999. Has anyone ever communicated to you a statement of that kind ? Yes ; plenty of statements have
been made.
4000. Can you furnish the Commission with the name of anybody who could give practical evidence in
support of a charge of that kind ? Not as to police bribery.
4001. You know that Chinese gambling in Lower George-street has increased very much during the last
few years ? Yes ; I know that.
4002. And you know that Europeans have visited these places very largely ? Yes.
4003. Going into the gambling-houses day and night, during any day in. the week ; iu fact at any time,
and quite openly ? Yes, every day in the week, Sundays included.
4304. I suppose the public about there are fully aware that this gambling is carried on in an open manner?
Yes.
4005. Are you of opinion that the police on the boat must be aware of the fact that gambling is carried
on there ? Yes, they are aware of it.
4006. Then do you know any reason why the police, bein£ well aware of it, have not taken action to
extinguish the evil to a greater extent than they have done during all this time ? Well, I have had repeated
conversations with Inspector Atwill on the subject, and he has always told me that, in the first place, it
was very difficult to make a raid upon these places, and, further, that when they did make a raid and
secured convictions, the magistrates let the offenders off with a small fine, which was paid, and they started
again immediately. He (Inspector Atwill) has always complained that they have not sufficient power,
and has frequently said to me, " Why do you not start to work, and get soaiething done in the shape of
fresh legislation to meet the case."
4007. Can you tell us how many raids have been made during the twelve years you have lived in that
locality? About three to my knowledge: but I went to England two or three times, and there might
have been some iu my absence.
4008. You are also aware that young people visit these gambling-houses very frequently ? Yes ; I am
aware of that also.
4009. Girls and boys? I have been told so, but I have not seen any girls.
4010. You have seen young fellows going in there ? Yes, frequently ; I have seen dozens of them going
in and out.
4011. Is there much Sunday business done? Yes ; I have frequently called Inspector Atwill's attention
to it. They go into these places on Sunday the same as any other day.
4012. You are aware of cases of working men going into these places to gamble, and losing all their
earnings ? Yes ; scores of cases.
4013. And you have heard, I suppose, of the misery entailed upon the families of these men as a conse-
quence ? Yes.
4014. During your time in that part of the city, Mr. Buchanan, has business fallen off to any considerable
extent, and property deteriorated in value in consequence of the presence of these gambling-houses ? I
know my own has deteriorated — as much as 50 per cent., I should say. It is gradually getting worse and
worse ; as the Chinese encroach, and get more shops and premises, so business has proportionately
decreased.
4015. About how many of these Chinese gambling-houses carry on this gambling traffic now ? At the
time the deputation waited on Sir Henry Parkes they were counted and I think there were twenty-three
known gambling-shops.
4016. There are some places down there which are kept by Chinese merchants, not gamblers ? Yes ; they
are very respectable persons.
4017. Do you know whether they are as much averse to the presence of these gambling places as the
general run of European shopkeepers ? Yes ; they say so.
4018. As regards rents, do you know whether the keepers of the gambling-houses pay higher rents than
the people down there? I believe they do. I believe one row of houses down there was built expressly
for Chinese gambling-shops— apparently so.
4019. There is no legitimate business of any kind carried on in them ? No ; nothing but gambling.
There are a few trifling things in the windows ; but they are merely a blind.
4020. Do you know the owners of any of these places — the landlords ? No.
4021. Do you know who built them ? I have heard that Mr. Beale, the pianoforte merchant, is one.
4022. It has been stated that the Chinese gambling-house proprietors make a boast that they will run the
Europeans out of that part of the city ; — do you know whether that is a fact ? Yes ; I have been told
they do. No respectable persons will come down there. My wife had some experience of that the other
day, when she went to a registry office to engage a servant.
4023. Have you heard of females being insulted by the Chinese in that part of George- street ? Yes; if
I were a female I should not like to pass those places.
4024. Have you heard of any women being kept in or attending those places for immoral purposes?
Yes ; I have heard so, but cannot speak from personal knowledge, as I have never been inside. 4025.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
101
4025. Do you know anything of the sanitary condition of these places; — are they kept clean or other- M*-
wise ? I have heard that they are kept very dirty. But as I have told you, I have never been inside. Buchanan.
The smell coining from them "sometimes is frightful. Tou could feel it with a stick. 30Sept^l891
4026. Do you know the smell of opium ? Tes ; what I take to be opium— a peculiar smell I have never ' '
detected anywhere else.
4027. Have you any knowledge of the effect of opium upon persons indulging in it ? Only from what I
have read.
4028. Tou never came in contact with any of them ? No.
4029. Then you have no direct evidence of any kind to offer that would sustain a charge of corruption
against the police ; nor can you give the names of any persons who could give information of that kind ?
No ; I can explain about Gouldtown, the Chinaman, if you would like me to do so.
4030. Did you see him on this subject ? Tes ; he came to me first, and he asked me if the meetings of
the League were held at my place. I told him " Tes." He then asked if I was secretary, and I told him
no, but directed him to where the secretary lived. He said I would do as well, and I took him into my
private parlour, where we had a long conversation, lasting fully half an hour. He told me that he
represented twenty -five Chinese merchants, and that they were as much averse to Chinese gamblers as we
were ; that they had heard about the League, and wanted to render such assistance as they could ; that
accordingly they had deputed him to come down [and attend the meeting. He also told me that he had
been brought up to the law in Canton, that he was a confirmed member of the Church of England, and
finally asked to be allowed to attend the meetings of the League. I went to the meeting and explained
matters, and he was admitted, and there he told the same story. It was after the meeting he told me
about the police in the presence of others.
4031. What was it he said ? That there was a sort of assurance fund collected by the Chinese gamblers
for the purpose of paying the fines if they were brought before the Court, and for subsidising the police,
and he offered to bring the men that collected the money for these purposes.
4032. Did he give you the names of any of them ? No.
4033. After G-ouldtown was admitted to the meeting was any action taken to test the truthfulness of his
statements ? Tes. Several of the members asked some of the respectable Chinese down there if they
knew this man, and they were told he was no good. He (G-ouldtown) offered to go with the deputation
and make the same statement to Sir Henry Parkes as he had made to us. I proposed that he should be
taken on the deputation, but the proposal was negatived, which I considered at the time, and still con-
sider, was a great mistake. He came there 1hree or four times, and offered to hand over £25, being £1
for each of the Chinese merchants he represented, or said he represented. He said he was a silk merchant,
and that he knew Mr. Quong Tart. He spoke excellent English. Some of the League afterwards went
to find him at his own establishment, and I believe it was a shady looking place.
4034. Do you know if he has left Sydney ? I heard so from members of the League.
4035. Did you hear what sent him away ? I have not heard, but I think I can guess. The first sus-
picion the League had of him was when he went over and paid the fines of the men connected with the
house in which the raid was made.
4036. He paid the fines of those men ? Tes ; those who were taken at the raid. Some members of the
League were present at the Police Court and saw him do it. That was when they first came to have a
suspicion of him.
4037. And after that he disappeared ? Tes. He was down to see us several times after that, and
explained that he did it in the interests of the League — that is, paid the fines of the Chinese gamblers.
4038. Did it never dawn upon the members of the League that he was humbugging them ? Tes ; it did ;
but we had nothing to conceal.
4039. Is it not a pity that he was not compelled to give the names of the twenty-five Chinese merchants
whom he affected to represent ? He expressly stipulated that their names should not be disclosed,
or his own either, for fear that the gamblers might retaliate upon them.
4040. Has the League taken any steps to ascertain the best means of suppressing these Chinese gambling-
houses ? They have got up a petition, which has been largely signed, which I suppose others have told
you, and they formed the deputation to the Premier, which I suppose led to the appointment of this
Commission to find out something about it and suggest a remedy.
4041. The raids on these places do not stop the gambling ? No. On the very day of the last case at
Court they came away as soon as the fines were paid, and started afresh.
4042. And you say that the police are well aware of this gambling being carried on regularly down there ?
They must be fully aware of it. I do not know that they deny that they are aware of it.
4043. Do they admit that it is carried on, and contend that they are powerless to stop it ? Tes. They
say they are powerless under the present law. That is what I have inferred from my conversations with
Mr. Atwill.
4044. Mr. Quong Tart] Tou say you know of several gambling-houses down your way ; — do you know
whether the Chinese gamble among themselves or with Europeans ? I believe they gamble with Euro-
peans mostly — with any one that comes in, as far as I have been told.
4045. Do you know which is the largest gambling-shop there ? No, I do not know which is the largest.
There is a whole row of them down there.
4046. I want to know which is the largest, and which the Europeans visit most? I do not know the names
of the places.
4047. Tou say there are respectable Chinese merchants in your neighbourhood ; — have you had any con-
versation as to the best method of putting down this gambling evil ? I have spoken to Ah Chik.
4048. Do you know how the gambling is carried on in those places ? This Mr. Gouldtown I have spoken
of explained to the League how it is carried on.
4049. Tou found Gouldtown a pretty-well informed man ? Tes.
4050. And you say he did not wish to give you the names of the twenty-five Chinese merchants he repre-
sented ? I do not know that we asked him the names of them. He told us that a meeting had been held
of Chinese merchants, of whom he was one, and they had deputed him to come down to the League, but
that they did not want their names mentioned.
4051. You say the smell of the opium is very disagreeable? Tes.
4052 Have you noticed the same kind of smell anywhere else ? No.
4053.
102 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE^
Mr. 4053. You have spoken to the police about the gambling down there? Yes, often ; and they all say the
A. Buchanan. same thing, that they have not sufficient power to put it down.
30sTw8ai 4054" ^r. Hatet'horne.'] Previous to the deputation to the Premier, did you have any conversation with
ep *' " the Parliamentary Labour Members for West Sydney ? Not with reference to that.
4055. Then, how do you imagine the Members who waited on the Premier and introduced your deputation
came to make the outrageous statements they did about the police ? I do not know. I have already
told you I was surprised myself when I heard it. I believe one of the Labour Members was asked to
introduce the deputation. I had no idea that four were going, neither had I any idea that they were
going to speak. You cannot ask Members of Parliament what they are going to Bay when they go on a
deputation.
4056. Was there any discussion between the members of the League and the Labour Members in the
ante-room previous to the deputation going to the Premier? Not while I was present.
4057. How did the information given about presents of diamond rings and bribes to the police accord
with your mind, Mr. Buchanan ? Well, I have heard remarks down there of a similar character, and I
suppose they heard the same, but, as I have said, I had no idea that they were going to bring those things
forward at the deputation. The deputation was principally formed to endeavour to bring the matter
under the notice of the Premier without any reference to the police whatever.
4058. With regard to Mr. Davis in particular, at the time he spoke, did it strike you that his
assertions were exaggerated ? Well, I began to think he must have some reliable information that led
him to make that statement. I could not think of anything else at the time.
4059. You have never met with any practical instance of a present being given to the police by the
Chinese gamblers ? No ; indeed, I was sorry it was said at the deputation, because it made the police
antagonistic to us whereas we wanted their support.
4060. Have you ever said anything to Inspector Atwill to the effect that you thought the police were
acting leniently towards the Chinese gamblers? I have often thought it strange, and have spoken to
him on the subject. I have expressed surprise that these people should be allowed to carry on during
Sunday as well as every other day in the week, and he has always said the same thing — that he wished he
could suppress it, but that they had not the power.
4061. Have you had any conversation with Inspector Atwill or other members of the police force since
you were summoned to give evidence before this Commission ?
4062. You think from the attitude of the police towards you that they are dissatisfied with what has taken
place in this matter ? They think the League is responsible for all that has been stated in which there
have been reflections upon the force. Previous to that I used to let my large dining-room for the use of
the police day and night ; they used to wait there till wanted at the station.
4063. Did they have their meals there ? No. It was simply a waiting-place for them, to be in readiness
when they were required.
4064. Up to that time you were on the most friendly terms with Mr. Atwill and the police ? Yes.
4065. And since then you have had no intercourse with them — are we to understand that ? Not that,
exactly ; but they are not so cordial as they were. In fact they have told me that they consider the
League responsible for the statements made in the Press and in Parliament concerning them.
4066. I suppose you have as many people going in and out of your place who are engaged in gambling as
anyone in that neighbourhood ? Yes. I frequently change a shilling or a half-a-crown in pennies. They
will ask for change, saying they are going to the Chinamen to play. They can gamble as low as a
penny.
4067. Have you met with any person who has said that he has seen the police presented with any article
by the Chinese gamblers ? No.
4068. All you know or have heard about the matter is simply from hearsay ? That is all. Of course
there are frequent rumours about the police being bribed, as also about Sunday trading with the publicans.
It is said they must be bribed, or the Chinese could not carry on as they do. And it does seem a remark-
able thing that this gambling should be allowed to go on so openly for two years without the Chinamen
being disturbed by the police or anyone else.
4069. Mr. McKillop.] And the evil growing in extent all the time ? Yes. They are gradually absorbing
more shops. They have been increasing steadily for years. I have always thought it a monstrous thing
that part of the principal thoroughfare of Sydney should be monopolised by these people. It is a public
scandal.
4070. Mr. Hawthorne.] The Chinese, as a rule, are a temperate class of people, I believe ? Yes ; I have
never seen one intoxicated in my life.
4071. Their patronage of your business is not on the same scale as the Europeans ? We get a few of the
better class of Chinese occasionally, but not the ordinary class.
4072. Do you believe there is any truth in the statement thai? the police have been bribed with presents
from these Chinese gamblers ? I can hardly answer that question. They might have been for anything
I know.
4073. Mr. McKillop.] Are the circumstances suspicious, to your mind ? Well, yes, they are ; I must say
that. I must say the circumstances lead me to infer that there may be something in it.
4074. Mr. Hawthorne. .] Might it not apply to the police in connection with the publicans ? Yes ; just
the same in that case. One man is allowed to do what he likes— to keep open all night, and allow
gambling and everything else — and no notice is taken ; while another man, for the first offence, is taken
up and fined. The inference there would be, of course, that in the former case the police were bribed,
4075. Have you found the police annoying to you ? No ; I never give them a chance. I never serve on
Sunday, or after or before the legal hours.
4076. You are under no obligation to feel for or against the police personally ? Not the slightest. I
have always been on the best of terms with them.
4077. Mr. MeKillop.'] Did you say, in the early part of your evidence, that on one occasion your wife
was insulted by the Chinese in Lower George-street? No. My wife went to a registry office to engage
a servant, and the girl said she " did not mind going to a respectable hotel, but she drew the line at
' China Town,' " or something to that effect. I have heard of ladies being insulted. In fact, as I have
said before, if I were a female I should not like to pass by the Chinese places there.
4078. Is it a fact that a few years ago the bulk of the passenger traffic from Watson's Bay and Manly
Beach used to pass up that part of George-street ? It is a fact. 4079.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 103
4079. And do they go that way now ? No. Mr.
4080. Do you think the present law is stringent enough to cope with this evil if it were given proper A' Buchanan,
effect to ? "Well I do not know the law ; but I have read that it was put in force some time ago success- ,„'TT/T^i
fully in one of the country districts. 30 Sept., 1891.
4081. In Tingha? Tes. It was a case in which they were imprisoned, I believe, or heavily fined; $nd
if the law would apply there I should say it would here.
4082. To the best of your knowledge did Mr. Gouldtown leave Sydney after this Commission was
appointed ? I do not know when he left. I was told by a member of the League some time ago that
he could not be found.
4083. Is it eight weeks ago ? Yes ; I daresay it is.
4084. Do you know of any sums of money being paid to European residents in your locality as an induce-
ment for them to vacate their premises in favour of Chinese ? I do not know of such a case, but I have
heard of it.
4085. Have you been told by the persons affected ? Tes ; in one case in which the transfer was pre-
vented.
4086. Was the name mentioned ? Tes ; it was known to Mr. Christensen. The house is occupied by a
man named "Williams, who keeps a confectioner's shop there. There was a man in it before who had
accepted, or said he would accept, £50 ; and Mr. Christensen went to Mr. "Woolcott, who is the agent,
and said, " Are you aware that your shop is being let or leased to a Chinaman ? " He said, " No " ; and
immediately stopped it.
4087. Do you know of any other cases similar to that you have just mentioned ? Mr. Dawson told me a
case in which a man was offered a bonus to quit his premises in favour of a Chinaman.
4088. Was the name Chazelle ? Tes ; I think I have heard that he was offered a bonus.
4089. Tou said a little while ago that you had a conversation with Ah Tik in reference to the gambling
evil ? Tes ; but I do not know that I asked him about the best way to suppress it.
4090. What was the nature of the conversation ; — was it in reference to the Commission ? No ; I have
not seen any of them since the appointment of the Commission.
4091. Did Gouldtown give you any reason why he wished to become a member of the Anti-Chinese
Gambling League ? Tes.
4092. Was it through any spleen on his part, do you think, or for the purpose of doing good ? He told
us that the Chinese merchants were as much averse to the gambling-dens as we were, because they inter-
fered with business. He explained that the Chinese hawkers who dealt with them, when they took to
gambling, did not make their payments regularly, but would come with some plausible yarn as to their
inability to pay for the wares they had received.
4093. Did he tell you about any secret society of Chinese being in existence from which any person
giving information was in danger of bodily harm ? Tes ; he said he was afraid to walk up to the
meeting, and came in a cab on the last two occasions.
4094. Did he tell you the name of the society ? No.
4095. Do you remember the case of an assault upon a half-caste Chinese some years ago — a man named
Riley, who gave information about Chinese gambling ? Tes ; I think I have heard of it.
409(5. Are there any houses used for immoral purposes in a street at the back of your hotel ? Do you
mean Globe- street ?
4097. Tes ; — are there any houses in that street kept for immoral purposes ? I cannot say.
4098. Have you ever witnessed any scenes in which Chinamen and prostitutes have figured in that
quarter ? They frequently come from behind the front street with Chinamen. The " Suez Canal"
used to be the worst — that is at the back of Playfair's. But I think some of the houses have been pulled
down there. Those people go to live where they can now about the Bocks.
4099. Are you of opinion that Gouldtown has been sent away by a syndicate of gamblers ? That is my
impression.
4100. Tou have no idea at present where he is ? No. He was asked if he would put his statement
down in writing, and he said, no, but that he would go before any magistrate or Commission of Inquiry,
and swear what he had said to us. He said he would be only too pleased to do so.
4101. I believe previous to his disappearance from Sydney he used to be seen pretty often in conversa-
tion with members of your League ? He was at my place about four times altogether.
4102. And he suddenly left off going there ? Tes.
4103. During the ten or twelve years you have been in Lower George-street have you noticed any
members of the police force wearing expensive articles of jewelry, such as would seem unbecoming to
men in their position ? Tes, I have.
4104. Have you noticed any of them wearing diamond rings ? I have seen them with a good deal of gold
chain and lockets, and so forth.
4105. Expensive jewelry ? Tes, appearing to be expensive. With regard to rings, I have heard that a
man named Dawson, who used to be a sergeant of police, received a present, in the form of a diamond
ring some time ago.
4106. That was a public presentation from the respectable Chinese merchants, in recognition of services
extending over a long time in the district ? Tes, I have heard so.
4107. Tou know of no other instance ? No.
[Witness withdrew.]
Jas. Ung Quoy called and examined : —
4108. President.] Tou are a member of the firm of Tin War ? Tes. j „ Q
4109. Where do you carry on business ? In George-street North. ',^-JL^-C'
4110. What is the nature of the business ? General goods. 30Sept.,1891.
4111. Are you aware that a number of your countrymen carry on gambling-houses in Lower George-
street? Tes. .
4112. Are you aware that a number of your countrymen carry on gamblmg-houses in Goulb urn-street F
That I do not know. 4113.
104 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
J. Ung Quoy. 4L13. Is it generally known by Europeans that Chinese gambling-houses are carried on in Lower George-
/-— - ^— — . street ? That 1 cannot tell you.
30Sept.,1891. 4114, d0 y0U n0t know that Europeans attend these Chinese gambling-houses to a very large extent f 1
know nothing about that at all. .
4115. Do you not frequently see numbers of Europeans going into the Chinese gambling-houses m Lower
George-street ? No.
4116. Do you mean to say you never do ? Sometimes I see a few.
4117. Will you answer the question ;— do you know yourself whether your countrymen carry on gambling-
houses in Lower George-street ? Yes. ^
4118. Well, if they carry on gambling-houses there must they not have people to go there ana gamble i
That I cannot tell you.
4119. They must have people to go there— you must know that ? I do not know, because I am not a
watchman. . .
4120. What class of people attend these houses ? That I cannot say. Sometimes I see a lew go in, but
whether they go in to do business, or gamble, I cannot say.
4121. Do you know Moy Ping? Yes.
4122. What business does he carry on ? A gambling-house.
4123. Have you been in there? Yes; once outside shop.
4124. Have you seen many Chinese going in there ? There are always Chinese going in and out.
4125. Have you ever seen Europeans going in there ? No.
4126. Do you recollect the police making a raid on Moy Ping's place ? Yes.
4127. Was there a meeting held in Tin War's place when that raid was made ? What have I got to do
with that ; no.
4128. Was there a meeting held in Tin War's place at any time within the last three months ? No.
4129. Within tho last six months ? No.
4130. Was ever a Chinese meeting held there ? No ; at no time.
4131. Do you know anything of the various Chinese societies in Sydney ? Yes.
4132. Are you in any way connected with any of them ? Yes.
4133. Tell me the names of the societies you know in Sydney ? There is the Pow on Tong.
4134. What is the object of that society ? It is composed of a community of our people from a particular
part of China.
4135. I want you to tell me the objects of the society ? The object is to aid old men, who are unable to
work, and send them home to China. Another object of the society is the removal of skeletons of China-
men from this country to China.
4136. Are you au officer of the society ? I am the secretary.
4137. Have you ever paid any money out of the funds of that society to the police for any purpose
whatever ? Not a fraction. The funds of the society are only used for the purposes I have told you.
4138. What are the other societies in existence here that you know of ? The Koong Yee Tong. That
was started sixteen years ago.
4139. Do you know what are its objects ? Yes ; the same as the other I have mentioned.
4140. How much money have you in the Pow on Tong Society ? Over £1,000.
4141. Did you get any of that money from the proprietors of the gaming-houses? Not a fraction of it.
4142. Do you not get any contributions at all from them ? No.
4143. How do you get your money ? Prom those belonging to our community.
4144. Who are the principal officers in the Koong Yee Tong ? That was started some years ago. I do
not know.
4145. Do you know of the existence of any other Chinese society ? I know one other, but I forget the
name.
4146. Do you know a society called the Loon Yee Tong ? Yes.
4147. Who are the principal officers of that society ? Some years ago Way E.ey was one.
4148. Who are they now ? That I cannot tell you.
4 149. Are you a member of it ? Not at all. I am out of it altogether.
4150. What are the objects of that society ? I am not certain what the objects are. What I have heard
is that the gambling-houses collect 3d. in the £ from the winnings, but I know nothing further.
4151. Have you ever heard what are the objects of that society ? No. I can only tell you what I know.
I am not going to tell you a story.
4152. I want you to tell us what you have heard ? What I have heard is this : that the society will send
old men away to China, and also the bones of dead Chinamen.
4153. But you have heard that they have some other object, or you would not have reserved it when I
asked you the question before, and you gave a different answer ; — you have got to open your mind to us ; —
come, I want to know what you have heard with regard to this society ? That I cannot tell you.
4154. You have already said they had another object ; — tell the Commission what other object the society
had in view when it was established in Sydney ? That I cannot tell you.
4155. But what have you heard with regard to it ? In fact I cannot tell you. What I know is what I
have told you.
4156. I want to know what you have heard — you must tell us that ? What have I to tell you?
4157. You can tell what you have heard ? I say I cannot tell you, because I do not know.
4158. You have said that you heard something that you did not know of your own knowledge ; — now I
want to know what it was you heard ? What I heard was that the gambling-houses kept 3d. in the £
from their winnings to contribute to the society. What money they saved or what quantity I do not
know.
4159. What did you hear the money was contributed for ? That I do not know.
4160. You have told us that you heard the society was established for something else besides what you
have said ; — now I want to know what, it was you heard ; — if you prevaricate and refuse to answer ques-
tions we must commit you to gaol for contempt ? You can put me in gaol, but you cannot compel me to
say what I do not know.
4161. I want you to tell me what you have said you have heard, and I will have it out of you? I tell
you what. The society might do some private business that I do not know. They might give it away, or.
throw it into the water. I do not belong to their community ; how am I to know? 4162.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 105
4162. Because it is a matter of common rumour; you know yourself they would not throw it away ; — J- Uflg Quoy.
you would not be likely to do that, I suppose ? I do not suppose anyone has money to throw away. /— ^-«- — \
4163. You have heard something about that society that you are suppressing? That is all I know. They 30 Sept., 1891.
followed us ; we started first.
4164. If they followed your society they have the same objects ;— is that it ? No; they have other objects.
4165. That is what I want you to tell me ;— you know they have some other objects, and you must not sit
there and tell me you never inquired what those other objects are, or that you do not know ? I am not
of their community.
4166. I do not care if you are a Mussulman or a Mahomedan— I want you to answer the question, and I
know you can if you like ? I cannot answer it.
4167. Why ? Because I do not know.
4168. Have not you heard ? What I have heard is that they collect 3d. in every £ that they gain ; what
object they have, I cannot tell.
4169. Tou have already said that you have heard they have other objects ; now I want you to tell us
what you heard ; that is simple enough, I should think ? Perhaps 1 can remember a little, if I put my
mind to it. Yes ; I remember they sent some money to the Chinese Hospital in Hong Kong, the Tong
Wah Yee Yuen.
4l70._ Why could not you tell us that before ? I did not think. That is all I can tell you on the
question.
4171. Are you quite sure that the funds of the Loon Yee Tong were not used for other purposes than
those you have named ? I do not know.
4172. Would not they help any of their poor countrymen here in distress ? No ; I do not think they would.
4173. Would they let them starve ? I do not say that. Any Chinese, either here or in China, would be
helped in that way outside the societies. If they have no clothes they would be given a few shillings,
and so on.
4174. Do you know Long Pen ? Yes.
4175. What is he now ? An interpreter.
4176. When did you see him last ? Three days ago.
4177. What conversation took place between you then ? None.
4178. You saw him in the street and passed him by ? Yes.
4179. Do you know any of the policemen down Lower G-eorge-street ? Yes.
4180. Tell me the names of those you know, or some of them ? The only ones I know by name are
Inspector Atwill, Sergeant Macdonald, and Sergeant Higgins.
4181. Do you know O'Sullivan? No ; I do not know him at all.
4182. Do you know Beadman ? Yes ; I know him.
4183. Do you know Carson ? No.
4184. Do you know Constable Adair— Hughey Adair ? Yes.
4185. What business do you carry on ? A storekeeper's business — importer.
4186. Is it the custom of your people, on the occasion of the New Year, to make presents ? Yes ; when
we are in China.
4187. Do you not make presents in Sydney? No.
4188. Did you never make presents to any member of the police force ? No.
4189. Is it true that you ever sent presents of chests of tea to Inspector Atwill or Sergeant Higgins?
Not half an ounce.
4190. You never sent them any presents whatever ? No.
4191. Is it true that you bought some jewellery and presented it to members of the police force ? I wish
they would give me some.
4192. Is it true ? No, sir.
4193. Have you heard of any of your countrymen doing so ? No.
4194. Do you know who paid the fines that were inflicted on the Chinamen who were arrested when the
raid was made on Moy Ping's place ? I do not know.
4195. You heard that some of your countrymen were fined on that occasion ? Yes ; I heard it.
4196. Do you know Gouldtown ? Yes.
4197. Is he a respectable man, in your estimation ? I knew him several years ago. At first I thought he
was a respectable man, but afterwards I found out that he was not.
4198. Do you know whether he paid any of the fines of the Chinese who were arrested when the raid was
made ? That I cannot tell you.
4199. You know that there was an Anti-Chinese Gambling League formed in Lower G-eorge-street ?
Yes.
4200. Did you ever attend any meetings of the League ? No.
4201. Did you ever authorise Mr. Gouldtown to attend a meeting on your behalf, with the object of
suppressing the gambling-houses ? No.
4202. Do you know any storekeepers who did ; — I may tell you it is alleged that Mr. Gouldtown was
authorised to go there on behalf of some twenty-five Chinese merchants, and to contribute £25 to the
object of suppressing gambling ? That is untrue. No storekeepers ever authorised him.
4203. No respectable storekeepers ? No.
4204. If he was authorised to pay any money into tho League it did not come from the respectable
Chinese ? No.
4205. Do you think it might have come from the Chinese gambling-houses ? That I cannot tell you.
4206. Do you think the probability is that if it came from that quarter Mr. Gouldtown was nominated
by the Chinese gambling-house keepers to throw dust in the eyes of the League? Yes.
4207. You know Mr. Gouldtown attended there ? Yes.
4208. And that he offered to pay £25 into the League, representing that it was subscribed by respectable
Chinese merchants; but you repudiate that;— it is entirely untrue, you say? Certainly; it is quite
untrue.
4209. Do you sell opium ? Yes.
4210. Are you authorised to sell it ? No.
4211. You know it is illegal to sell it ? Yes.
4212. Do you retail it ? No ; we never sell it retail ; we sell it in cases. 4213.
272—0
106 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
J. Ung^Quoy. 4213 You know the sale of opium is not legal ? Tes, I know it, because sixteen or seventeen years ago
30Setl89l * went to a magistrate in Tenterfield to get a certificate, and he said there was no such thing to be issued.
" '' '42 14. Do the police know that you sell opium ? Tes.
4215. Have they ever told you that it was illegal ? No ; they have never said anything to me.
4216. Did they never ask you if you had a license ? No.
4217. They have never troubled you at all on the subject ? No ; all the landing-waiters, and collectors,
and Customs officers know it.
4218. You are the resident partner in the firm of Tin Wah & Co. ? Tes.
4219. How long have you been here ? About twenty-one years altogether, but I left the Colony for
several years.
4220. I believe you are also agents for a steamship company trading between this port and Hong Kong r
Tes ; the E. & A. Company.
4221. Chinese passengers coming to this country obtain their passages through your firm, do they
not? No.
4222. Through what other firm then ? "When they come here they go to different places.
4223. But can they come separately, or do they have to come through some firm of merchants ? Tney
can come separately.
4224. Tou have been here a long while ? Tes.
4225. Are you in favour of suppressing the gambling-houses ? I would like to put it down at any
moment. I will explain. About fourteen or fifteen years ago, gambling-places were started in different
parts of the city. The respectable Chinese merchants of the city held a meeting which lasted several
days, and they appointed me to take steps to put down the gambling.
4226. Tou are opposed to gambling ? Tes ; and at the time I am telling you about, I did all I
could, so far as getting a committal of the gamblers to the Quarter Sessions. Then Mr. Quong Tart s
relatives acted for the other side, and one or two of the storekeepers, or those who appointed me, worked
together with Mr. Quong Tart's relatives, and I threw it up. Most of these gamblers are Mr. Quong
Tart's relatives.
4227. Mr. Hawthorne.] "What do you mean by relatives ? His cousins, or relatives.
4228. Tou do not mean to say that Mr. Quong Tart had anything to do with these people ? No ; they
came from his country.
4229. I suppose Mr. Quong Tart knew nothing about what they were doing ? He was in the country.
4230. But he would be ignorant of what they were doing ? I do not know.
4231. He would not be supposed to know — he would not be responsible for their actions ? No.
4232. Mr. McKillop.~\ "Was Mr. Quong Tart in the country sixteen or seventeen years ago ? Tes.
4233. Tou know that as a positive fact ? Tes ; twenty years I have known him.
4234. We are safe in saying that Mr. Quong Tart never at any time of his life sanctioned gambling ? I
do not say Mr. Quong Tart did, but most of his countrymen gamble and smoke opium.
4235. What do you mean by his countrymen ? His relatives.
4236. I suppose you mean that they come from the same part of China ? Tes.
4237. So that when you say relatives, what you actually mean is that the people you refer to come from
the same part of China as Mr. Quong Tart ; so that, by the same token, if I happened to come from
Gloucestershire, in England, you would say any person coming from the same part of England was a
relative of mine. The impression conveyed to the general reader would be that Mr. Quong Tart's actual
blood relations had been guilty of gambling and opium smoking ; but what you mean simply is, that the
persons you have referred to come from the same part of China ; — is that so ? Tes.
4238. Mr. Abigail.'] Have you tried in recent years to suppress gambling in any way among your
countrymen ? No ; after that I never touched it. T just mind my own business. I have quite enough
to do.
4239. How many hands have you in your establishment ? We have five now ; there used to be seven.
4240. Are you a married man ? Tes.
4241. Do your hands sleep on the premises ? Tes.
4242. Are they all single men ? They are married, but their wives are in China — two married, two single.
4243. Do you see them indulge in fan-tan in your shop out of working hours ? No fear of that.
4244. Tou would not allow it ? No.
4245. Do you know of your own knowledge whether they frequent the fan-tan shops in Lower George-
street ? No ; they are never allowed to go there.
4246. If you knew one of your hands played fan-tan ? I would sack him.
4247. In other words, you think a man who played at fan-tan would not be a very desirable man to
employ in your store ? No.
4248. Have you never heard of the police receiving presents from Chinese to induce them to wink at the
gambling that goes on in Lower George-street ? No.
4249. Tou can read English ? Tes.
4250. Have you read in the daily papers an account of the deputation that waited on Sir Henry Parkes
in relation to this matter ? I saw an account of the meeting with Sir Henry Parkes, yes.
4251. Did you see one of the members of that deputation asserted that members of the police force had
received presents of diamond rings and other articles of jewellery from the Chinese ? Tes ; I read that.
4252. Did you ever meet with a Chinaman who had ever made a present of anything to a policeman ? No.
4253. Tou do not believe it is true ? No, I do not.
4254. So far as you are concerned, you know nothing of the police having received presents from any of the
Chinese residents r No ; I do not believe they do it either.
4255. Mr. McKillop.] Do you remember the members of this Commission coming to your portion of the
town some five or six weeks ago ? No.
4256. Were you not there on that occasion ? No ; I was not there at all. I did not see ycru.
4257. Do you live on the premises in Lower George-street ? Tes ; opposite the Sailors' Home.
4258. Is there a cellar attached to your place ? Tes.
4259. Is there a fan-tan table down there ? What do you ask me that for ? I am as good as a European.
4260. I am not asking you whether you are as good as a European or not ; I asked you the question, have
you a fan-tan table in your cellar, and you can answer yes or no ? No.
4261.
CHINESE GAMBXIN& COMMISSION — MINWES OF EVIDENCE. \QJ
4261. Is Long Pen a respectable man in your estimation ? No ; sometimes he goes in for gambling, too. J. Ung Quoy,
4262. Does he associate with you ? No ; he does not come to my place at all. ^>*-a^^\
4263. Hare you ever known Long Pen to be summoned to court for gambling or any other immoral SOSept., 1891.
offence? Ivo.
4264. Have you had any conversation with any member of the police force since you received a summons
to give evidence before this Commission ? No.
4265. Were you talking to Mr. Way Kee at any time lately ? Tes.
4266. Was he telling you that he had been before this Commission giving evidence ? No.
4267. Mr. Quong Tart] Now, you are a respectable, intelligent man, and you say that some fifteen or sixteen
years ago you tried to suppress Chinese gambling ? Tes ; I was appointed for that purpose, as I have
told you.
4268. What were the firms ? At that time I was employed by Tin War & Co. There was Sun Kum
Tiy, On Ching, Way Kee, Yuen Fook King, and Sun Kum On.
4269. You say they met on behalf of the storekeepers or merchants to stop the gambling ; — how many
stores do you think were in the city — amongst the Chinese— about how many ? About ten or twelve —
not more than that.
4270. You say that members of my community stopped you from doing so ? I said they were on the
other side.
4271. Do you know Long Pen ? Yes.
4272. Where did you see him last ? A couple of days ago. There was some case at the Water Police
Court. I met him in the street.
4273. Did he say to you he had told us you could tell us all about this gambling ? Certainly not.
4274. Do you know Pow Chee ? Yes.
4275. What kind of man is he ? He is a very good scholar.
4276. Is he not a gambler? I do not say that. Some time ago he has complained to me: "Ung Quoy, I
have bad luck ; I have lost a few shillings to-day."
4277. You remember about three months ago the Anti-Chinese (rambling League formed a deputation to
wait on Sir Henry Parkes, and a meeting of Chinese was held at Sun Sam War's concerning this gambling
matter ; — have you heard anything about that ? No.
4278. You know Long Pen ? Yes
4279. Do you think he does good for his countrymen or the reverse ; — is he a reformer or an informer ?
That I cannot tell you. He is an opium smoker", so far as I know.
4280. Mr. Hawthorne. ~\ Is he still an opium smoker ? Yes.
4281. Mr. Quong Tart.\ He comes from the same part of China as you come from ? Yes.
4282. Do you know his father ? No.
4283. Do you think it likely that a father would send opium from China for his son to smoke ; — did you
ever hear of anything like that in your experience ? No.
4284. You know of the complaints that have been made of some of the Chinese in Lower George-street —
first, as to the gambling ; secondly, about the immoral practices there with women ; and thirdly, with
regard to the sanitary condition of these places — that they are kept in a dirty state, and give off a smell
enough to knock you down. You say that you have tried to put down gambling in the city ; it is still
going on ; what have you done since ? Since then one or two have asked me, but I have refused to go.
4285. Who asked you ? Mr. On, of On Chong and Co.
4286. Any other ? I do not remember the others.
4287. If any Chinaman gambler got into trouble, what would be your feeling ; — would you assist him, or
go against him ? I would be against him.
4288. You are certain none of your men are connected with gambling in any way ? Yes ; I am
quite sure.
4289. You are aware that in all communities there are different classes, good and bad ? Yes.
4290. The Commission would like to know your views as to the best means of putting down this gambling
evil ; — can you make any suggestions ? I should be very pleased if you could stop it.
4291. What is the best way to accomplish that? That I cannot say.
4292. You have said that you did so before — that you took it upon yourself to stop the evil ; — what
method did you then employ ? Simply got them arrested, and left the magistrate to deal with them.
4293. Why do not the police do it now ? Who goes to them ?
4294. Which is the biggest gambling-shop down there ? Moy Ping's is a big one.
4295. Any others ? Yes ; there are some more.
4296 Have you noticed the writing on the doors like those places in the photographs ? Yes.
4297. What does that say on the photograph ? It says, " Fan-tan night and day "
4298. Have you seen many of these notices down Lower G-eorge-street ? I have not taken notice.
4299. The reason I ask you that is because you are an observant man, andif you have, as you say, a
desire to put down this evil, you would see what is going on around you ; — in fact you must see, going
down there as often as you do ? It is just as I told you a little while ago ; the first time I was appointed
to stop the gambling those others worked against me, and after that I would not touch it. Even if the
G-overnor asked me, I would not do it. I just mind my own business now.
[The witness withdrew.]
FBiDdY,
108 CHINESE GA.MBLINO COMMISSION— -MINTTES OF EVIDENCE.
FBIDAT, 2 OOTOBEB, 1891.
frmnt:—
The Mayor of Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.)> President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbesident.
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QTTONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. Edward Neville Reading Eorder called and examined : —
Mr- E- N- R- 4300. Mr. Abigail.'] You are a reporter for Truth newspaper I believe ? I am.
Forder. 4301. And you made a statement to our Secretary as to a certain Mr. Law who could give us informa-
2/oV~189l ^on aDOU* a P°lice Sustentation Pund to which he had subscribed, I think, and which was at all events
"' ' managed by the proprietors of the Chinese gambling-houses in Sydney ? I do not think I made a state-
ment to that effect. The statement that I made was a great deal more direct.
4302. Then what was the statement? The statement that I made to your Secretary was to the effect that Mr.
Law had, the day previously, told me that he had seen, with his own eyes, money passing between a dele-
gate from the Chinese and a certain officer in the police force. That was the statement I made to Mr.
Blackwell.
4303. There are two or three Mr. Laws I believe. What was the Christian name of the Mr. Law who gave
you that information ? It was Mr. Alfred Law.
4304. Did Mr. Alfred Law himself make that statement to you ? Yes, and I may also say that a month
or so before, his brother had stated to me that he (Mr. Alfred Law) had witnessed the transaction,
and I called upon him on that occasion to get him, if possible, to make a voluntary statement before the
Commission. That was when he made the statement to me.
4305. And he said he had actually seen it ? Yes, he said that he was going up Queen's Place on his way
from his office when he saw the transaction.
4306. Will you give us the name of the police officer said by him to have received the bribe ? Yes, it
was Sub-Inspector Atwill.
4307. Did Mr. Alfred Law tell you the nature of the gift ? He said it seemed to be a handful — fully
twenty sovereigns.
4308. Did he say when this took place ? He did not specify the hour. The date however could be fixed
because I remember him saying in the course of conversation that it was just before his brother removed
from Queen's Place.
4309. Then he made the statement twice, did he ? No, the brother (Tom) made it to me in the first
instance, and then when I went down to see him about repeating it before the Commission, Tom was not
in, and I saw Alfred himself, and he made the statement to me then.
4310. Do you personally know anything about the Chinese gambling'? I have frequently been through
the places. I have visited them in the capacity of a journalist.
4311. You have seen the gambling carried on? Yes.
4312. Have you ever seen any of the police present ? No, never.
4313. And this statement made to you by Mr. Law is the only information you have obtained of the police
receiving bribes ? I have heard rumours to the effect before, but nothing direct. It has only been
hearsay.
4314. What was the effect of those rumours ? I was told by Mr. Alfred Law that Sub-Inspector Atwill's
New Year's box from the Chinese last year amounted to £150. At least what he said was this : that the
Chinese Association had subscribed a sum of that amount, but that the Chinaman to whom it was entrusted
was a bit clever and stuck to £30, so that, as a matter of fact, what Mr. Atwill is said to have got was £120.
4315. Did you hear the names of any of the Chinamen who made the subscription, or of the man who
took the £30, or the party who paid the balance over ? No.
4316. Mr. Hawthorne.] You are sure that you did not hear the name of the Chinaman who stole the £30 ?
Quite sure.
4317. Mr. Abigail.] You know that gambling is carried on ? Oh, yes, I have played fan-tan in Lower
George-street myself repeatedly when I have been working the question up for different papers.
4318. There is not much secrecy about the game then ? Oh, none whatever.
4319. You have seen both Europeans and Chinese playing ? Yes, but mostly Europeans.
4320. It is commonly known that this sort of thing is going on ? The dogs in the street bark it.
4321. Then the constables must know it ? Of course they must know it. They cannot help doing so, for
three out of every four of the shops down in Lower George-street are gambling-dens. You can get them
of all descriptions, from the low den where the lowest-class lumpers congregate — men who work a day or
two, and "booze" the rest of the week — to the swell establishment, where £50 is put down at a time.
4322. You have seen as much as £50 put down at a time ? Yes, by one man, on the fan-tan table.
4323. And you draw the inference that if the police are aware that gambling is going on to this extent
amongst the population of Lower George-street, and yet take no means to stop it, that they must be paid
for neglecting their duty ? As a man of the world I should say that that is the only construction you can
put upon it. It is to their own interest to neglect their duty, if they get an equivalent for doing so.
4324. Have you ever heard from the police that Lower George-street is looked upon by them as being one
of the best beats in the city ? I have not heard that said by a member of the police force ; but I know
that about the city it is generally said to be one of the best beats.
4325. Have you ever heard that some of the police are worth a great deal of property ? I have heard it
but not direct.
4326. Did you hear Mr. Alfred Law make that statement ? Yes, I certainly did.
4327. And if Mr. Alfred Law has come before the Commission and said that he made no such statement to
you, and knows nothing about the matter, he has said what is not true ? Yes, if it is the same Mr. Law.
4328. Well, we will send for him. Of course you would know him again ? Certainly I should.
4329. Mr. McKillop.] Have you ever seen any females entering these dens ? I have frequently seen them
in the dens. Some have been there almost whenever I have gone in.
4330. Have you ever seen them engaged in gambling ? No.
4331. Have you ever seen young lads playing fan-tan ? Yes, any number of them.
4332. Any of what you might call joung girls? No. , 4333.
GHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 109.
4333. Have you ever noticed any policemen going in in plain clothes ? No, not that I know of. Mr. E. N. B.
4334. What is about the average number of persons you would find in a gambling-den when they are in Forder-
full swing ? Well I have been down on a week night, and in the very first place I have entered there „ CT^^s^i
must have been about sixty men. Indeed the crowd was so great that it took me about a quarter of an ' '
hour to push my way through it, to lay my money on the table.
4335. Have you ever seen any rows down there ? I have seen nothing in the nature of a serious dis-
turbance ; but I have seen the sudden blow, the general bustle, and the ejectment of a rowdy individual.
When that occurs, somebody is generally " dead broke," and being turned away. Then there will,
as a .rule be a general complaint about unfair play, and, of course, a rush for the money on the table.
4336. Oh, you have seen the table rushed ? Yes, but never what you would probably call a row. It has
invariably been a sort of put-up job by the worst class of larrikins— those who act as touts for the Chinamen.
Scores oi them get their dinners— thick soup (I do not know whether you have ever tasted it) every day
from tho Chinamen, as a reward for touting for them.
4337. What is the sanitary condition of these places ? There is no such thing as sanitation at all down
there. They never think of such a thing.
4338. Have you ever seen any harrowing scenes between men and their wives— the women beseeching
their husbands not to play any more ? No, that has not come within my experience.
4339. Have you, in your rambles, noticed any scenes about the Eoeks between the Chinese and the
prostitutes who are kept by them ? I have not seen any worth special comment— nothing more than you
would see m any European quarter where there were a good many prostitutes.
4340. Have you seen much opium smoked ? Oh, a great deal of opium-smoking.
4341. And do Europeans smoke it? Tes, a great many. It appears to be a growing habit amongst the
Europeans of that neighbourhood. I am personally acquainted with young women who have been brought
to a fearful state of degradation through it.
4342. Are the gambling-dens in Lower George-street on the increase ? I do not think they are.
4343. Do any of them do any legitimate business ? Well, there are generally a few articles in the shop
front as a sort of blind, but judging from the kind of stuff they keep, as an old tradesman, I should say
that they do not do any legitimate business.
4344. Have you ever visited any respectable Chinese places ? Tes, I have done business with a few of
them.
4345. Have you ever seen any fan-tan tables in a respectable Chinese merchant's place ? No. There
are two or three Chinese merchants down there who in the conduct of their business would be a credit to
any European community.
4346. Have you ever had any conversation with the Chinese merchants about any of the low-class dens
we have been referring to ? Only with the Laws.
4347. Did they, in their conversations with you, lead you to believe that they are in sympathy with this
sort of thing ? No, quite the contrary. They expressed themselves as keenly opposed to it, and that was
what led me to say to them that they should volunteer evidence before the Commission.
4348. They are a respectable family ? They are a very respectable family indeed, with a large circle of
acquaintances in a very respectable walk of life.
4349. Are you of opinion that if the present law was put in motion it would do away with these
gambling-dens ? Well, if it is plainly stated in the present law that fan-tan is illegal, they should turn
the Chinamen neck and crop out of the place.
4350. President.] Do you know the law on the point? I have not made a study of it.
4351. Then you cannot express an opinion upon the question ? Yes, I do not think there is any doubt
about it.
4352. Well, is pak-ah-pu illegal? Yes, certainly it is illegal.
4353. Well, as a matter of fact it is not illegal. We know that ? Yes, it is a lottery and as such it is
gaming, and therefore must be illegal.
4354. But it is not ? Well, I was of opinion that it was.
4355. Mr. McKillop.] At all events you were talking of fan-tan? Yes.
4356. Have you ever heard anything about the state of trade down there ? Yes, that on account of the
presence of these Chinese gambling-houses the tradesmen are gradually losing their business, because the
streets are not fit for females to traverse. There is so little legitimate business doing that the few who
do have any cannot make a living. They have no customers.
4357. Do you know of any European tradesmen who have been offered a bonus to leave their premises in
order to enable Chinamen to take them ? No.
4358. Mr. Quong Tart.'] How long ago is it since you had that conversation with Mr. Law ? Quite recently.
4359. When ? Last Monday.
4360. What sort of women gather about these dens ; — are they virtuous women ? No, the lowest class
of prostitutes.
4361. They are not girls just come out of their shell ? No — not by any means.
4362. Did you ever talk to any respectable Chinese merchants upon the question ? I have already
answered that question to Mr. MeKillop ; the feeling of the respectable Chinese merchants upon the matter
is very strong.
4363. Can you name a few of the respectable Chinese living down there ? I have named the three
Laws, but of course, they are not full-blooded Chinamen. Then, I think, I had a conversation with Mr.
On Sing — I believe that was his name — two or three years ago. He is a very well-to-do man, and lives
just below Charlotte-place.
4364. You say that you have been several times to play fan-tan. Do you think it is a fair game, or is
there a good deal of cheating about it ? I know that it is played very unfairly. If the game is going
against the bank they cheat. Indeed the qualifications of a banker are gauged by his abilities to manage
a " situation" by manipulating the coins.
4365. Are the majority of persons who frequent these places Europeans or Chinese ? There are about
three Europeans to every one Chinaman ; but, as a matter of fact, the company consists of persons of
pretty well all nationalities under the sun — Chinamen, Indians, Lascars, and Europeans.
4366. Mr. Hawthorne.'] How long is it since you have been in any of these places? The last time was
about four months ago ; but that was only a casual visit. I went to see if I could not work up something
more for the Press. I wanted to get an article for the Truth; but as I did not see anything fresh
I abandoned the idea. 4367.
110 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. E. N. R. 4367. Did you disguise yourself at all? No ; not at all. I went in my ordinary every-day clothes.
Voider. Indeed I was only stopped upon one occasion during a score of visits. Then I had a tall man with a full
9 'n""'i«Qi beard with me, and they would not let us pass because they thought that he was a policeman.
' 436S. And on other occasions you have had no difficulty in going in and playing fan-tan ? None at all.
Upon one occasion they had not a game in progress when I arrived, but one of the Chinamen rushed up
to us and said, " Me start game ; me start game."
4369. How do you know that any particular shop is a gambling-den? Oh, there is no difficulty whatever
in finding that out. Anyone who knows anything at all about Lower G-eorge-street can tell at once.
4370. Did you ever notice whether the Chinese were more frequent winners than the Europeans ? Well
I have noticed that the banker has a very large share of the winnings.
4371. You think that the Chinese representing the bank, as a rule win more than anybody else ? Tes.
4372. Do you think there is anything in the manipulation of the coins ? I know there is.
4373. Tou think there is something in the way of spring coins ? I know there are spring coins. If the
players are backing the three very heavily, and the banker sees that there are going to be three counters
left, he will give one of them a flip with his finger ; it will split into two, and the winning number will be
four.
4374. So that according to your explanation, the Chinese can win the game whenever they desire ? Not
whenever they desire. They cannot make a certainty of it any more than any other gaming-table shark
can ; but they can generally manage to work it. And, besides, they have another advantage. By con-
stant practice they can tell with some degree of accuracy how many coins are under the cup.
4375. Coming back to the charges against the police, have you ever heard anything upon which you, as a
sensible man, can rely as trustworthy evidence connecting the police, or Inspector Atwill, as the head of
the force in that quarter of that town, with having received bribes from the Chinese gambling-house pro-
prietors ? Speaking as a judge, certainly not.
4376. Have you ever met any person who has told you that he has given the police anything ? No ; I
have not.
4377. Have you met anyone who would go as far as to say that he had seen a present given to any
member of the police force ? Tes ; I have given you the name of a young man who told me that he
saw a present given to Inspector Atwill.
4378. But all the evidence on that point will come through another person ? Tes ; I only know what he
told me.
4379. Have you ever had any conversation with Inspector Atwill on the subject of the Chinese gambling-
dens ? Several.
4380. And what has been your impression after them ? The impression that I gathered after a lengthy
conversation with him was that he was perfectly cognisant of all that went on around him, but that he
was bent upon trying to excuse the conduct of the local police. He seemed to me to think that they
were harshly judged by the public at large, and that the district was not so bad as it was painted.
4381. I suppose that as the officer in charge of the district he was trying to make it appear to you that
the police were doing all they could to suppress gambling ? Tes ; that is about what it was.
4382. President^] Does your experience apply to the Chinese quarters of Goulburn-street as well as
Lower G-eorge-street ? I have been there two or three times.
4383. What I want to find out is whether gaming is carried on with as much impunity in Goulburn-
street as it is in Lower George-street ? My experience is not such as to enable me to say whether it is
as easy to enter the places there, but they are as numerous. About every second house you come to is
a Chinese gambling-house. There are notices in the Chinese language outside the doors in Goulburn-
street saying that gambling is carried on day and night.
4384. Then, as a matter of fact, it is carried on with as much impunity in Goulburn-street as in Lower
George-street ? Tes ; I should say so.
4385. Have you ever visited Goulburn-street with the express intention of inquiring into the question of
gambling ? No ; I have never been there about gambling ; but I have been to inquire into the debauching
of females by the Chinese.
4386. Well, allow me to examine you about the debauching of females by the Chinese in the southern
end of the city. When did you undertake that inquiry ? Oh, it is about three years ago.
4587. What did you discover upon that occasion ? 1 had heard of a particular case, and visited the
district for the purpose of traciug the facts, but I failed to discover anything in it. I was after one
particular person who, we had received instructions, had been led astray. I spent a whole day in the
locality, and found the same terrible neglect of sanitation, the same amount of gambling and opium-
smoking that I had seen in Lower George-street, but absolutely nothing about that particular case. The
women we did see were all opium fiends and drunkards. Where they were young girls it was evident
that they had been hopelessly led astray before they went to live with the Chinamen. I have inquired into
the details of Home of Hope cases, and the women have told me that it is a perfect haven of rest for
them to go and live with Chinamen.
4388. What is their particular virtue? Well, having no women of their own out here, and being unable
to get along very well without them, the European women who live with them are prized accordingly.
The Chinamen treat them with great kindness in order to keep them. They dress them much better
than their white bullies do, and they do not kick them as they do. They give them all sorts of luxuries,
pamper them in every way, and treat them to opium and grog until they are utterly degraded.
43N9. Did you make many visits to the southern end of the city in connection with your duties ? No.
4390. And you did not see many young girls who were not deeply versed in the ways of vice before they
went to live with the Chinamen ? No ; my experience is that there is a tremendous amount of exaggera-
tion upon the subject.
4391. Exaggeration you mean as to their being degraded by Chinamen? Tes. As a rule the young
girl who goes to the Chinamen has been a kind of hack for all the larrikins in the district for years, and
when she becomes ripe for the Chinamen her own conduct is worse — she swears more and drinks more,
and makes a more shameful exhibition of herself in the street than her male consorts.
4392. Would you regard the Chinaman as a destroyer of female innocence, or even a danger to female
virtue in the southern end of the city ? I shall certainly say that the presence of all these unmarried
men and an alien race with a code of morals so different from our own is very bad for the women and
children of any locality. 4393.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Ill
2 Oct., 1891.
4393. But although you have visited the district for the purpose of inquiring into the matter, you have j^gj
no tangible evidence that the women and children in the neighbourhood of Goulburn-street are being _^j^^L
degraded by the Chinese population there ? I have no actual evidence of it I admit. 2 Oct. 1891g
4394. Such evidence as you obtained all leads to the conclusion that these women were old in the ways of
vice before they began to consort with the Chinese ? Yes. I should say so. I have heard a great deal
about Chinamen being destroyers of female virtue, but have seen nothing of it.
4395. Have you ever seen women under the influence of opium being used in a beastly manner by
Chinamen ? No.
4396. Tou do not want to put in evidence any particular scenes that you may have witnessed in your
tours of that end of city ? No.
4397. Tou have seen women under the influence of opium however ? Tes ; just as I have seen women
elsewhere under the influence of drink.
4398. Tou have never seen men in the same room ? Tes ; I have seen a woman asleep in a bunk with
men in other bunks around the room ; but I have never seen men in the bunk with women senseless,
under the influence of opium.
4399. The men you saw in the same room were taking no notice of her ? No ; j ust looking upon her as a chattel.
4400. Did you ever make any attempt to discover whether there were secret Chinese Societies in Sydney ?
No.
4401. Mr. Quong Tart."] Do you know how many gaming-houses kept by Chinese there are in Lower
G-eorge-street ? No ; I do not. I never attempted to count them.
4402. About how many do you think ? I really do not know. It is a big contract to undertake to say
how many shops of a certain kind there are in a given space.
4403. Would there be twelve or twenty should you think ? More like fifty or eighty I should think.
4404. And who keeps the largest ? "Well, the largest is on the left hand side going from here, just above
Jones' pawn-shop.
Mr. Alfred Law called in : —
4405. President.'] Mr. Porder, you got certain information . concerning matters of interest to the ^r* ■*•■ *ja,v''
Commission from Mr. Law. I want to know if this is the Mr. Law who gave you the information?
This is the gentleman I saw on Monday morning at the office of his brother with whom I am well
acquainted.
4406. Would you mind restating the information he gave to you ? I went in to see his brother and
found this young man sitting in the office. I told him who I was.
Mr. Law : Tou never told me who you were ?
Mr. Forder : I thought I did ; but possibly I am mistaken. I am not certain about that. At all
events, you made me welcome until your brother came in. [To the President.] I first heard of his name
from his brother, who happened to say in my presence, "Do this, Alfred." In that way I heard the word
"Alfred," or otherwise I should not have known his name at all. It is due to Mr. Law that I should say
that much in explanation. [To Mr. Law.] I have stated to the Commission that in conversation with me
you said that you had seen yourself, on one occasion, in Queen's-place, when your brother's office was
there and you were leaving at night, Inspector Atwill standing in the road receiving, from a Chinaman a
handful of sovereigns — about 20 sovereigns altogether.
Mr. Law : I never said anything of the kind. When Mr. Porder came to the office he said that
he came to see my brother, and I asked him to sit down. He did so, and I then asked him to have a glass
of whisky, and he said he would. Then we began talking about pugilism and the Eocks champion, and
he subsequently said to me, " How did I think the Chinese Inquiry Commission was getting on." I
replied that I thought it would end in a farce. Of course I did not know who Mr. Porder was. I had
never seen him before.
4407. President^ He came to your residence I understand ? No ; not to my residence, to the office.
4408. Whose office was that ? John Gee and Co's.
4409. Did Mr. Porder ask to see your brother ? Tes.
4410. He did not see your brother ? No.
4411. But he saw you? Tes.
4412. Did you ask him what his business was with your brother ? I did not.
4413. But you did invite him to have a glass of whisky ? Tes ; I did.
4414. But why should you invite Mr. Porder to sit down and have a glass of whisky when you had never
seen him before, and did not know anything of his mission ? I asked him in a friendly way.
4415. Is it your custom to treat people so hospitably? It is a Chinese custom to treat people with
hospitality.
4416. Did he not tell you who he was ? He did not tell me anything.
4417. Did he not even tell you that he represented a newspaper ? No, he did not tell me anything of
the kind.
4418. And the first thing you did was to ask him to sit down and have a glass ot whisky f Xes, you see
he was waiting to see my brother.
4419. But, surely, you asked him what he wanted to see your brother about ? No.
4420. What did he say to you first. What was the first serious conversation he had with you ? I do
Hot remember what it was. . .
4421 Then why should you have entered into conversation with him, or detain him, or taken up your
own time with him ? He asked me if he was detaining me, and I said " No." Then he said, " This is
Monday— it is not a busy day with me. Tou do not mind me staying a little."
4422. Have you got a private office at John Gee and Company's ? No I have not, but my brother has.
4423-4. And are you entitled to ask anybody who happens to come in to drink whisky with you ? Tes, I
have permission at the office to do it if I please. ,,„...,, . L , Al A T , , . .. .
Mr. Forder .- Let me explain that I asked for his brother, and stated that I had frequently
promised to call upon the brother, and on seeing Mr. Alfred Law at the window of the office, I mistook
him for his brother.
4425. President.] (To Mr. Law.) What is your age ? Twenty-four.
4426. What is your brother's age ? My brother is about 30. 4427
1J2 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. A. Law. 4427. Does he wear his hair like you ? Yes, and in other respects he is very much like me. We are
s~*~^"~\ often mistaken for one another.
2 Oct., 1891. 4428. Proceed with your account of the conversation. "What occurred after you asked Mr. .border
to have a glass of whisky with you. Of course, you know you are on your oath, and have to-day to
speak the truth, just as if you were on your oath in a Court of Law. "What were you talking about when
the conversation drifted on to the question of the Commission ? He was talking about the difierent nghting
4429. Mr. Hawtlorne.] Are you in the habit of indulging friends with information about the pugilistic
science ? I take an interest in it. Mr. border asked me how the Chinese Gambling Commission was
going on, and I said that it would be a farce. •+ 1, i, *
4430. President.'] What led you to that conclusion ? It is a mere opinion of mine. I came to it by what
I had read about the Commission. . , ,.
4431. Had you aDy discussion with him about the scope of the inquiry ? I had no discussion with him
whatever.
4432. Tou did not give him your views ? No. , .
4433. Tou simply said that you thought the whole thing would end in a fiasco ? And he said that he
thought so too.
4434. Did the conversation end there ? Tes ; my brother came in then.
4435. And what did you say when your brother came in ? I never said anything after that.
4436. Had you any private conversation with your brother whilst Mr. Forder was in the office ? JNo ; he
brought a friend in with him, and introduced him to Mr. Forder.
4437. Did your brother know Mr. Forder straight away ? Tes ; he knew him at once.
4438. What is the name of your brother's friend ? Andrew Suttie.
4439. Is he a European ? Tes.
4440. What is his address ? I do not know.
4141. What is his employment ? He is a broker.
4442. Then don't you employ him sometimes on behalf of your firm ? Occasionally.
4443. Where do you address his letters ? I do not know his private address.
4444. Where do you send his letters ? They come to the office.
4445. To your office ? Tes.
4446. Then, that is his business address ? Tes.
4447. What conversation took place between your brother and Mr. Forder in your presence ? My
brother went outside after that.
4448. Who with ? To speak to a boy in the office about a little business I think.
4449. What business ? I do not know.
4450. How long was he away ? About five minutes.
4451. And Mr. Forder was there all the while ? Tes.
4452. I want to know what took place between your brother and Mr. Forder ? They went out a little
while after.
4453. What took place in your presence, between Mr. Forder and your brother when they were in the
room ? Nothing took place between them. "
4454. Did you explain to your brother what Mr. Forder's mission was — what he wanted to see him
about ? No.
4455. How came it that your brother and Mr. Forder should go away without any explanation from you ?
I do not know. Mr. Forder simply shook hands when he was going away.
4456. And no conversation took place between your brother and Mr. Forder in that room ? No ; they
simply shook hands — that was all.
4A57. Tour brother never had any conversation with you after the interview in that room as to what Mr.
Forder came about ? No.
4458. And you never asked him what conversation he had with you ? No, not any.
4459. Tou know you said the other day, when we questioned you about your brother's habits, that he
never visited any of the gaming-houses ? Tes, I did, and it is perfectly true.
4460. Would you be surprised to hear that Mr. Forder went to the office to see whether your brother
could give him information as to what took place in certain gaming-houses ? I should. He certainly is
not in the habit of visiting any gaming-houses.
Mr. Forder : Pardon me ; you are putting me in a wrong light. I never said that I went to see
Mr. Law for that purpose.
Mr. Law : The next day Mr. Forder came to ask me where my brother was, and I said that he was
out. I was busy writing at the time. He put out his hand and said, " Feel at my little finger ; see how
it is jumping." I took hold of his little finger, and then went on with my writing, and he went out.
4461. President.'} Now, Mr. Forder, you have heard Mr. Law's version of what took place between you
and him ; — will you now give us your version of it ? Mr. Forder : The previous day I had met the elder Mr.
Law (this one's image) a little higher up the street than their office, and he had said to me, " Tou never
called as you promised," and with that pointed to the place. The morning that I had the conversation
with Mr. Alfred Law I happened to be down in that end of the city, and seeing him at the window mistook
him for his brother William, and went upstairs. As he came away from the light of the window I found
out my mistake, and as I did not know him, apologised and explained that his brother had asked me to
call. He thereupon asked me to sit down and wait till his brother came in, saying that he would not be
long. As he has told you, the conversation turned amongst other things — on pugilists, and the Rocks
champion, Grriffo. Whilst we were discussing these things he asked me to have a glass of whisky, and I
had a glass with him. All along I had intended to lead up to the subject of Chinese gambling, and par-
ticularly to the statement about Inspector Atwill and the 20 sovereigns, but as a matter of fact, he (Law)
turned the conversation upon the Chinese question by asking my opinion of the probable result of the
Chinese Commission. That brought on the general conversation, in the course of which he made the
statement that I have retailed to you this afternoon.
4462. Will you repeat it now in Mr. Law's presence ? I have already done so since he entered the room.
4463. Mr. Hawthorne.] The statement about Inspector Atwill receiving the 20 sovereigns ? Tes.
4464. Mr. Abigail.'] Is there any possibility of a mistake in respect of what took place about this par-
ticular incident ? There is not the slightest mistake on my part. 4465.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 113
*46^- ^en Alfred Law, who swears that nothing of the kind took place, is not telling the truth ? I Mr. A. Law,
would not put it that way. He may himself, in the course of a rapid conversation with an older man /"*-* s
who drew him out, have gone rather further than he intended to, and without being aware of it have made 2 0ct-> 189U
this statement and then forgotten all about it ; but I am willing to repeat the statement on oath that
these were the words he used, " It was a pretty solid handful; there must have been 20 sovereigns."
44bb.JNow, Alfred Law, having: heard Mr. Forder make that statement, do you deny it ? Mr. Law ■ I
J IT: i Cam-e it0 ^e 0fl?Ce ^e next da^ and told me and my brother he had had a grand old spree,
and that he was so tight when he left my brother that he did not know how he had jammed his finger.
He said that my brother had put mm on board the Balmain steamer, and he did not know how he had sot
home that night. °
44™ v' MSrKiU°^ yas he sober when he had this conversation with you ? Yes, quite sober.
M68. Mr Hawthorne.] As a matter of fact did you ever see anybody give Inspector Atwill any-
4469-70. And you are prepared to swear that you never told Mr. Forder that you did ? Yes : I never
said anything oi the kind.
Mr. Forder: Will you ask Mr. Law if he remembers me asking him why, as a good citizen, he did
not profter his evidence on that point to the Commission. *
Mr. Law.'] No he did not say so.
4471. Mr. Hawthorne {to Mr. Law).] Do you mean to say that after you told Mr. Forder that, m your
opinion, the Commission would be a fiasco you had no conversation with him on the question of Chinese
gambling ? _ Mr. Law : No— my brother came in then.
4472. Was it not a very singular thing then that you should have spoken to him about the Commission
and said that it would end m nothing, and have no further conversation with him about it ? No, as I
told you before, my brother came in then.
4473. Just at that moment ? Yes, just at that moment.
4474. Did your brother leave the room with Mr. Forder? No, not immediately, He first left the
room himself to tell the office boy to do something, and then a few minutes later on I followed him out,
and he came in and asked Mr. Forder to go out and have a smoke.
4475. Where did they go to ? I don't know where they went to.
4476. And you did not see your brother or Mr. Forder till the next day ? No.
4477. What time in the day did your conversation with Mr. Forder take place ? It was in the afternoon.
4478. What time in the afternoon ? I don't know exactly.
4479. Was it 6 o'clock? No, not so late as that.
4480. Was it 5 o'clock ? No ; I should think it would be about 3 o'clock.
4481. Is your brother engaged in the same firm as you are ? Yes.
4482. What are his hours of attendance at the office ? From 9 to 5 o'clock.
4483. And what are yours ? From 9 to 5.
4484. What time does your brother usually leave the office ? About 5.
4485. Would he not come back if he left at' 3 o'clock ? Sometimes he goes out broking.
4486. But would he not generally come back to the office even if he went out on broking business ?
Well, he might go straight home after concluding his business.
4487. Is it not a fact that he has to come back to the office and report his business before going home ?
In that case he would report it the next morning.
4488. That is if he left at half -past 4. But suppose he left at half -past 2 would you expect to see him
again that afternoon or not till the next morning ? I should expect to see him again that afternoon.
4489. What did he do on that particular occasion ? He came in the next morning.
4490. What is his position in the firm ? He manages the business for John Gee.
4491. Who is John Gee ? One of the firm of Sun Eum Tiy.
4492. Who shuts up the office ? I do.
4493. Does Sun Kum Tiy know that your brother conducts their business in that way ? Yes, they do.
4494. Mr. Quona Tart (to Mr. Forder) : Did Mr. Law mention any Chinaman's name in connection
with the 20 sovereigns said to have been given to Inspector Atwill? No.
4495. Mr. McKillop.] You have always been on good terms with Mr. Law have you not ? I never saw
him until that morning.
4496. I mean his brother ? Yes, it was through his brother Tom that I first heard of the matter.
4497. And it was through the communication that you had with Mr. Alfred Law that you first mentioned
the matter to our secretary ? Yes.
4498. Not voluntarily, I believe ? No.
4499. Mr. Hawthorne.] How long do you think the communication that you had with Mr. Alf. Law
lasted ? About five or six minutes.
4500-1. Did any other conversation take place between you after he told you about the 20 sovereigns ?
I felt my way to see whether, having some Chinese blood in his veins, he had any racial prejudice in
the question of Chinese gambling, and I soon found out that he was quite opposed to it. I then asked
him why he had not given information to the Commission, and he said that he dir) not like to do so. Then
I dropped the matter, and in my own mind thought that if he knew all this he ought to have
communicated with the Commission. Indeed, without making myself appear to be personally interested
in the business, I strongly urged him as a good citizen to come forward. He said that he was going away
from his brother's office in Queen's Place, and when going out of the back he saw Inspector Atwill and
a Chinaman together ;, the Chinaman was handing a handful of sovereigns to the Inspector. "There
must have been fully 20, he said."
Mr. Law : He never asked me anything about the Chinese gambling-houses.
4502. Mr. Hawthorne (to Mr. Law).'] You swear that you never saw the circumstance detailed by Mr.
Forder ? Yes, I do.
4503. You will swear that you never described anything of the kind to him ? I will swear it most positively.
4504. But does it not seem strange to you that he should have invented a story of this kind? All I
know is that he did not get the information from me.
4505. Do you give everybody who comes to the office a glass of whisky without knowing who they are ?
No, not everybody. I do sometimes, but I knew that Mr. Forder was waiting to see my brother.
272— P 4506.
114 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. A. Law. 450(3. Mr. Quong Tart {to Mr. Forder) : Was Mr. Law's brother present when you had this conversation
' ^"A"> N with him ? No, there was nobody but ourselves in the office.
a Oct., 1891. 4507 Mr Hawthorne.] "Would you like to ask Mr. Law any questions, Mr. Forder? No, I have asked
him whether what 1 have said is not true, and he says that it is not.
4508. To Mr. Law: "Would you like to ask Mr. Forder any questions? No; I have nothing to ask
him. I should like to go now if you will allow me. I have a lot of work to do at the office. [Mr. Law
retired.]
4509. Mr. McKillop.] Have you had any conversation with anybody in the firm of Sun Kum Tiy about
this matter ? No, 1 have not.
4310. Nor with any of the other Chinese merchants ? No.
4511. The President {to Mr. Forder) : Tou do not think you could be mistaken, do you Mr. Forder? No;
there is no doubt about that. "We were talking face to face, and his brother and I spent the whole
afternoon together ; indeed we went out to lunch together. The conversation between Mr. Alfred Law
and myself occurred at 11 o'clock in the morning, and not at 3 in the afternoon as he has stated. Then
his brother and I went to the City Buffet and had lunch together at 1 o'clock, 1 may say as I explained
to Mr. Blackwell, that it was the brother who first mentioned this matter to me, and he _ told me that
Alfred had himself witnessed the circumstance. I said to Mr. Blackwell that I knew nothing but what
would be hearsay evidence, but that I might be able to get the information direct from the pafty who
had seen the incident, and it was in consequence of that that I went to the office and saw Mr. Alfred
Law.
4512. Can you tell me whether either of the brothers are in the habit of gambling ? No, I do not think
either of them has anything to do with it.
4513. Then it was quite an accident, according to the statement you say that Mr. Alfred Law made to
you, that he saw the money given to Inspector Atwill ? Quite so.
4514. Did he say when it occurred? In Queen's Place, at night.
4515. And he witnessed it from his office window? No, he was just coming out of his office. Mr.
Atwill was standing with his hand open like this, and the Chinaman was putting sovereigns into it.
Mr. Patrick Lundon called and examined : —
Mr. 4516. President.] What are you? A 'bus driver.
P. Lundon. 4517. Do you know our secretary ? No.
/ — ~a— —n 4518. You never saw him in your life before ? No, not to my knowledge.
2 Oct., 1891. 4519. Did you ever have any conversation with anyone about the business of our Commission ? Not
that I am aware of.
4520. Have you ever been in a Chinese gambling-house in your life ? Never! so help me God. I have
sworn that.
4521. Tou swear that you do not know this gentleman ? I do not know him.
4522. Do you think that you never saw him before in your life ? I could not swear it. Tou gentlemen
must know that in my avocation it is very hard to remember everybody.
4523. Do you remember ever having a conversation about the Commission with a gentleman sitting beside
you on the box of your omnibus ? I could not possibly swear either that I had or had not. G-entlemen
get on the top of the 'bus with me, and when they bring up a subject whatever way their views go I
generally side with them to please them.
4524. But you are sure that on the box-seat of an omnibus you never told any gentleman (to please him
you know), that you were ever present in a Chinese gambling-house ? I have never been in one at all.
4525. Alone or with a detective ? No, never in my life.
4526. How long have you been driving an omnibus ? About five years.
4527. Where were you before that ? In New Zealand ; I am a native of Auckland.
4528. And during the whole five years that you have been here have you been driving an omnibus ?
Not all the time.
4529. How many months have you been idle ? I have never been idle in Sydney.
4530. Well, you say that you have not been driving all the time you have been in Sydney ? I had employ-
ment previously at the Carrington Mews in Phillip-street.
4531. How long have you been in the employ of the S. T. & O. Co. ? I cannot possibly say to a month
or two, but to the best of my belief it is between four years and four years and a half.
4532. Have you been constantly employed all that time ? Tes.
4533. What are your hours. When do you commence duty? We have a different time-table every day.
4534. So you have some leisure ? ' Oh, yes, I get a day off in the week.
4535. And do you ever get a night off ? I get one. If I am off on a Monday then I get Monday night
off, and also the following Friday night, and that is like two nights in the week.
4536. How do you generally pass these off nights ? At home.
4537. Are you a married man ? Tes.
4538. Have you got a family ? No, I have no family.
4539. Where are you living ? In Glebe Boad.
4540. Where were you living twelve months ago ? In Bay-street.
4541. The Glebe also. Where were you living this time three years? In Bay-street.
4542. Did you ever live at this end of the city, in Gloucester- street, or Lower George-street, or Goulburn-
street, or near there ? No.
4543. And you never visited a gambling-house in mistake ? No, I never visited a gambling-house in
my life.
4544. Mr. McKillop.] I suppose you did say all this, but it was merely to kill time? I beg your pardon.
I might give him an answer.
4545. President.] Did you ever make a statement to any passenger on your 'bus to the effect that you
had ever visited these places ? I cannot conscientiously say that I did not.
Sam
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES 01? EVIDENCE. 115
Sam Tin called in and examined : —
4546. President."] Where do you live ? I nave a private house at Enmore. Sam Tin.
4547. "Where do you carry on business ? I carry on business in Lower George-street. < -k^—>^
4548. What number Lower George-street ? No. 181. I work for wages there. 2 Oct., 1891.
4549. At Sun Sam Kee's? Tes.
4550. What do you do there? I carry on business, dealing in rice, Chinese goods, and tea.
4551. Is it not a fact that Sun Sam Kee's is a gambling-house ? No.
4552. Do you mean to tell me that 181, is not a gambling-house ? Yes.
[As the witness, who could speak English fairly well, persisted in answering the questions in Chinese,
through the interpreter, Mr. Lisson was asked to retire, and retired accordingly.]
4553. You work at 181, George-street ? I want the interpreter.
4554. Do you work at 181, George-street? Yes.
4555. What sort of business does Sun Sam Kee carry on? He is in China.
4556. What business is carried on at 181, George-street ? Dealing.
4557. In pak-ah-pu I suppose ? I want the interpreter.
4558. You can speak English very well, and if you won't answer our questions we shall have to send you
to prison. Is fan-tan played at Sun Sam Kee's ? I want the interpreter.
4559. Mr. Hawthorne.] What does Sun Sam Kee do for a living ? He is in China.
4560. Who is head man there ? There is no head man. There is only one man working, and I am
managing a little while for him.
4561. Are you managing for him now ? Yes.
4562. What is your name ? Sam Tin.
4563. You are married to a European woman, I believe ? Yes.
4564. She does not speak Chinese, does she ? No.
4565. Then how do you understand her when she speaks to you ? I understand a little bit.
4566. What do you do in business ? I deal in tea, rice, and Chinese goods for Sun Sam Kee.
4567. And what else do you deal in ? There are generally two or three of my countrymen on their way
to China stopping there.
4568. How many are stopping there now ? Two or three.
4569. How many have you had at a time ? As many as fifty, when they have been going away to China,
or going into the country.
4570. So that your house in Lower George-street is really a lodging-house, is it ? Yes.
4571. Not for everyone ? Only friends and countrymen, stop there.
4572. You have a fan-tan table there ? No.
4573. You had one there two months ago ? Yes.
4574. Had not you a fan-tan table there one month ago when the Commission went down there ? You
ask for the interpreter to come in.
4575. You had a fan-tan table — we know that ; — how long is it since you took it away ? What you call a
fan-tan table 1 do not call a fan-tan table at all.
4576. How long is it since you gambled there ? About two years or more.
4577. And you mean to tell me that you had that fan-tan table there two months ago and did not allow
fan-tan to be played on it ? No ; not now. It is about two years ago since Sun Sam Kee went away,
and not much play since then.
4578. What do your countrymen do when they are stopping at your place at night ? If the Government
make a great noise, we stop playing, and if they not make great noise we play a little. When my
countrymen come to stop at my place, some go out to enjoy themselves, and some stop in the house, and
some of those who stop in the house play fan-tan, but since two years nobody has stopped.
4579. Do you not make a lot of money out of gambling? I am an agent for a house.
4580. What kind of a house ? I am agent for Mr. Josephson.
4581. Do you collect his rents ? I collect the rents for fourteen houses, and get the commission out
of it.
4582. All for Mr. Josephson ? I do not get all the commission from him, but a good part of it.
4583. How much commission does he allow you ? It is not a fixed amount. I take a house from Mr.
Josephson and I sublet it.
4581. How many houses have you got ? Fourteen.
4585. All belonging to Mr. Josephson ? Yes, and one big shop.
4586. How much do you pay for the shop a week ? £5.
4587. What number is it ? I cannot remember.
4588. Is it the shop in which Sun Sam Kee carries on business ? No.
4589. Who occupies it ? Some of my countrymen. It is No. 173, and Sun Sam War lives there.
4590. You pay Mr. Josephson £5 a week for the house ? Yes.
4591. And you let it out to Sun Sam War ? Yes.
4592. What do you get a week for it ? I get nothing from that shop.
4593. Do you let Sun Sam War live there for nothing ? I only just oblige him.
4594. You give Mr. Josephson £5 a week for this house 173, and you let Sun Sam War have it for
nothing ? No ; for £5. I get nothing out of it.
4595. What do you get for the other fourteen houses ? I get £8.
4596. Are they all the same size ? Pretty well— some are a bit bigger than others.
4597. What do you let them for ? Some for 18s., some for 15s., and some for 14s. a week.
4598. How much do you make out of the lot per week ? About £120 or £130 a year.
4599. Do you pay the rates and taxes ? Yes.
4600. Out of that ? No ; I make about £120 clear.
4601. What do they do in the shop;— what does Sun Sam War do ? I do not know. I never go in.
4602. But you said just now that you collected the rents for the fourteen houses ? Yes.
4603. But don't you collect the rent of Sun Sam War's house ? No ; I get nothing out of it.
4604. But does not Mr. Josephson hold you responsible ? Oh, Sun Sam War pays him every week.
4605. Are you not a partner in Sun Sam War's ? No.
4606. Are you not a partner in his gambling business ? No. 4607.
116 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Sain Tin. 4607. Will you swear it ? I will swear that I never go in there, and that I never get anything from it.
' * * 460*. What do your other tenants in the fourteen houses do ? They are in Queen-street, and are all
2 Oct., 1891. basket carriers or dealers. They make very little money. There are lots of ups and downs.
4609. But the houses are never empty down there ? Sometimes they are.
•1610. How long are they empty for ? Sometimes for two or three weeks. I said to Mr. Josephson, " I
make very little money out of your houses. Tou take £la week off," and he said, "Very well, I let
you have them for £7 a week."
4611. Mr. Josephson has great confidence in you, has he ? He knows me.
4612. You have known him some time ? Tes ; about five or six vears.
4613. And you talk to him ? A little.
4614. Then why would you not talk to the President just now ? He asked me one big word, and I could
not understand it.
4615. Mr. Abigail.'] Do you know what fan-tan gambling means ? No.
4616. Mr. Haiothorne.] How long have you been in this country ? Seven or eight years.
4617. Who are in the firm of Sun Sam War ? I cannot tell you.
4618. Some one else besides Sun Sam War? I do not know.
4619. Who was the man who took the house from you ? I do not know his name. I shall have to find
it out.
1620. Are you sure that you let it on the same terms that you give for it ? Yes ; quite sure.
4621. Now, I want the name of the man to whom you let this house, in which Sun Sam War carries on
business ? I said just now that Sun Sam War has gone out of it.
•1622. What is the name of the new man ? I do not know. That is what I want to find out. They have
only been in about a week.
4623. Is it not a fact that they left because they were afraid of carrying on the gambling business any
longer on account of the appointment of the Commission ? I cannot tell you that.
4624. We must have the name of the man to whom you let the house ? I cannot tell you his name. He
is a new man.
4625. Did you not let the house ? No ; I take the house. I let Mr. Josephson go and collect the
rents. This man goes away and another man comes, and Mr. Josephson goes and collects the rents. I will
find out the name of the man for you.
4626. You must give us the name to-day ? I do not know.
4627. Can you not write it down in Chinese? There is the name of the firm, and I will give you that,
but I do not know what the name of the individual is. Shing Groong is the name of the firm.
4628. Have they put any stock in the place? I do not know. I have not been in for ten months.
4629. Mr. McKillop.] Is it next door to you ? It is a few doors further down.
4630. What were the names of the partners who occupied the house before the new firm went there?
There were three men there then, and they went away about a week or ten days before the new men
came in.
4631. What was the name of the old firm ? Sun Sam War.
4632. How long have you been in the firm of Sun Sam Kee ? I am not in the firm. I am only the
manager for them.
4633. Do you know Poster's pawn-shop ? Yes; we are next door.
4634. And you tell the Commission that there is no gambling going on down there — that there was
none going on, for instance, the night they visited the place, and saw half a dozen Europeans in the
inner room ? I heard of it, but I was sick at the time, and the doctor had told me not to be out after 6
o'clock, so that I was not in town that night.
4635. Who was there ? I have a man there managing for me when I am away, and he would be there.
His name is Ah Bung.
4636. Where is Sun Sam Kee ? In China.
4637. How long ago ,did he go away ? Nearly eight years ago — between six and eight years ago, though
it might be only five years ago.
4638. You do all his business for him ? Yes.
4639. What do you do with all the money that you gather in Sydney ? I only get £2 a week.
4640. And your board ? No ; only £2 a week altogether.
4641. Then who is the representative of the house over here? I cannot understand that.
4642. How many partners has Sun Sam Kee ? He has no partner. There is only one man in the firm.
4643. What do you do with all the money you get for selling rice and tea ? Oh, business has got very bad<
4644. How long is it since business has been getting very bad ? Ever since Sun Sam Kee went away.
4645. You mean the business that you look after for yourself? No, for Sun Sam Kee.
4646. How much money do you send home to China? None — not a penny.
4647. How long ago did you stop playing fan-tan in your shop ? Two years ago.
4648. But you allow fan-tan to go in the back part of your premises ? No, not now.
4649. Do you keep any account books ? No, I don't keep books.
4650. You know very well that there is plenty of gambling going in Sun Sam Kee's premises. We want
you to speak the truth ? No, not now.
4651. Perhaps not to-day nor yesterday, but up to two or three weeks ago ? No.
4652. Do you know a man named Charlie Eisher — a man who lost £300 or £400 there ? No.
4653. He is a thin man and has got a public-house now. Do you know him ? I may have seen him, hut
that is all, I do not know his name.
4654. You have to tell the truth. Let me caution you. Do you want to go to gaol ? I tell the truth.
4655. Did you not have gambling carried on in the back premises up to a few weeks ago ? No — not up
to a few weeks ago.
4656. You remember the night that the Commission came round? I heard of it. They said some
gentlemen on a Commission came round with Mr. Atwill and a policeman, but that is all I know about it.
4057. They did not tell you that fan-tan was being played at the time, and that the Commission saw
many white people playing in the room behind the shop ? No.
4658. President.] You are a very respectable Chinaman, are you not ? Oh, I have not been so long in
this country.
4659. You would not play fan-tan in this country? No. Long while ago, up the country, I played a
little, but since I worked for this man I never played at all. 4660.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 117
4660. You live upon the commissions that Mr. Josephson pays you? I h aye got a share in a cabbage Sam Tin.
garden at North Shore, worked by my countrymen. /— ~ A— - ~^
4661. Of course you have no share in any gambling-house ? No. 2 Oct., 1891.
4662. You would not take any share in the business of, or commission from, your tenants Sun Sam War ?
No.
4663. Of course if you speak what is true you will not be hurt, but if you speak a lie it will be very bad
for you ? I swear that I took the place for £5 a week and started my business, and then let it again for
the same money.
4664. Would you mind telling me about these Chinese Societies. You know the Loon Yee Tong,
though of course you are not a member yourself ? No, I come from a different part of the country.
4665. Of course. I know that it is a very bad society and you would not belong to it? I might be in
it, but as I do not belong to that part of the country they would not let me in it.
4666. But you would not belong to it anyhow, would you. It is a very bad society. They pay money
into the Police Court to cover fines don't they ? No, I do not know what they do. I having nothing at
all to do with it.
4667. Mr. Abigail.'] Were you taken to the Police Court two years ago ? Yes, more than two years ago.
4668. What was the charge made against you ? Oh ! When I'was on the other side of the street I was
taken there. I went inside a place and it happened to be a gambling-house and they took me in.
4669. Were you fined ? Yes.
4670. How much ? Pive pounds.
4671. Who paid the fine ? I did.
4672. Was it not £40 ? No, only £5.
4673. How many people were found on the premises when you were charged that time with gambling ?
I was never fined for gambling on my premises.
4674. You were fined for gambling, were you not ? Yes, on the other side of the street. I had gone
there for lunch.
4675. And is it since you were fined for gambling that you have become so very moral, that you do not
allow anything of the kind now ? No.
4676. Was there no one gambling in your place last night — Europeans and Chinamen ? No.
4677. Mr. McKillop.~\ Understand we will bring witnesses to prove it, and you will find yourself in gaol,
where you ought to be. It" we went down there now should we not find a fan-tan table ? There is a
table there of course. Tea-pot, cups, and saucers on it. It is for breakfast, dinner, and tea. We have
our meals there.
4678. Are these not the coins and the cup used for playing fan tan on it ? No.
4679. President.] Does not the Loon Yee Tong pay money to the police ? That is not my business, you see.
4680. I know it is not your business, but have you never heard that your countrymen pay money to the
police ? No.
4681. Your place is Sun Sam Kee's ? Yes.
4682. Well do you not pay money to the police ? No.
4683. You know Inspector Atwill, don't you ? Yes, I know him.
4684. Don't you know that your tenants are paying money to him ? No.
4685. You are quite sure of it ? Yes.
4686. Do you know of any of your countrymen giving money to him— not because there is anything
wroug, but because Inspector Atwill is a very good man ? No.
4687. I suppose if we ask you to come again you will come ? Oh, yes.
4688. We should like your assistance, you know. You tell us you are a very respectable man. Then
will you give us all the help you can ? Oh, yes, I will come whenever I am called. I must come, of
course.
4689. But we do not want you to come because you must. We do not want to put pressure upon you.
We want you to come willingly ? Yes, I will come.
Yuen Tah called and examined : —
4690. Mr McKillop.] Where do you live? My private house is in -Queen-street; my business in Yuen Tah.
Pyrmont. rTTifiQi
4691. What is your business ? I am a furniture manufacturer. * ucc- iain-
4692. Do you belong to any Chinese society ? Yes, I belong to the Kooney Tong.
4693. What office do you hold in it ? I do not hold any office in it, I am only a member.
4694. What are the objects of that society ? To take up dead bodies.
4695. What else ? Nothing else. . . .
4696. How much money have you got to the credit of that society in the bank ? I thmk it is about
£1,700 or £1,800. " w l „ _ , u . . ,. .
4697. Do you subscribe every week, month, or vear to this society? We do not give periodical
subscriptions. We paid a lump sum at the beginning. Nobody was allowed to pay less than £1, but
many of the merchants paid as much as £5, £10, and £50.
4698. How much did you give ? I gave £5.
4699. Have you given any money to the society since ? No ; we only paid once.
4700. How often does that society meet ? Not very often. We have a meeting when we are taknfg dead
bones home.
4701. Has that society any other objects ? None.
4702 Do you know of anything else that was done with the money. Do you ever have to pay any sums
of money in the shape of fines ? No, we do not do anything of that kind. We save the money for the
legitmate objects of the society.
4703. How many Chinaman do you employ ? About fifty.
4704. Have you any fan- tan tables at your place in Pyrmont ? No.
4705. Do you know Lower George-street ? I know Queen's Place and Lower George-street too.
4706^ Did you ever live in Lower George-street? Yes, when I was manager for Sun Kum Tiy I lived
in Lower George-street. *? °7-
118 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINVTES OF EVIDENCE.
YuenTah. 4707. How long did you live there ? I lived there for fifteen years or thereabouts.
•— -A— -\ 4708. How long is it since you left there ? About six or seven years, I think.
2 Oct., 1891. 4709 When you lived down there did you notice a large number of Chinese gambling-dens in the neigh-
bourhood ? There might have been five or six.
4710. Do you know that since then they have increased ? No, I cannot tell.
4711. Have you had any conversation with any of the Chinese gambliog-house keepers about the
Commission F No, I do not know any of them.
4712. Do you know that this great evil exists to a very large extent amongst your fellow-countrymen
down in Lower G-eorge-street ? Yes, I have heard of it.
4713. .Are you in favour of gambling, or would you like to see it done away with ? I do not like to say.
4714. We want to get an expression of opinion from you, and must have it. Eemember you are on your
oath, and say either yes or no? When J am not in the habit of visiting these places surely I have
nothing to do with it.
4715. That is an evasion. I want you to say "yes" or "no" in answer to my question as to whether you would
like to see this gambling done away with. Do you think it is a very geat evil ? I do not know that it is
very bad. They gamble in China just as they do here.
4716. Do you know that gambling is against the law ? I would not like to say out what I think of it. In
China there is some gambling ; in this Colony there is some gambling. If a person wins money he says
" gambling very good," if he lose money he says " gambling no good."
4717. But do you not know that it is against the law to gamble i No, I do not know that it is against
the law, but if the law says it is wrong then it is wrong.
4718. Are you connected with gambling ? No, I am a business man. I heard of somebody winning
£300 last week.
4719. Where ? In Lower George-street.
4720. Was he a white man or a Chinaman ? He was a Chinaman ; and he says that gambling is very
good.
4721. Tou are afraid of speaking on this point, I see ? No, I am not afraid.
4722. President.'] I want you to tell me about the Loon Yee Tong ? I know nothing about the Loon Yee
Tong, my dear sir. The Koon Yee Tong I know about, but nothing about the Loon Yee Tong.
4723. Do you know there is a Chinese Society called the Loon Yee Tong ? I heard about it three years
ago ; but it does not exist any more now. I heard at one time
4724. Tell me what the objects of the Loon Yee Tong were. I dare say it is all done away with, but what
were the objects that they combined for. What did they do ? I heard that they got about £400 for
coffins to keep on a steamer for skeletons to take back to China.
4725. But all the Chinese societies do that. Was not the Loon Yee Tong a society that helped the Chinese
gambling-house keepers to defend themselves against the police ? I know nothing at all about that. Look
here ; I heard that £400 went to buy coffins to put on board the Chinese steamers, and that there was a
balance which was given to the hospital.
4726. Did not they ever pay Police Court fees out of it ? I do not know at all.
4727. Suppose a Chinaman were sent to gaol for keeping a gambling-house, would they not pay him a
sum of money when he came out ? I do not think so.
4728. What makes you think that if you do not know anything at all about it ? Oh, I do not know ; I
only say that I do not think so.
4729. Supposing that one of your countrymen were caught gambling and sent to gaol, would not the
Loon Yee Tong pay him £1 a week when he came out for every week that he had been in prison ? I never
heard anything about that.
4730. Well, supposing the Chinese were to kill a European, would not the Loon Yee Tong find the money
to pay him with Y I do not know ; I do not think it would do that. It was a very good thing for them
to send money home to buy coffins for ships, and I do not think that the society that would do that would
pay for killing people. If they would kill people they would not send money home to China to buy
coffins with.
4731. Well then, how was it that the society came to an end ? It was, I understand, because the trus-
tees fell out, or something of that kind, but I really do not know myself.
4732. Do you know Tah Sing ? Yes ; he is my cousin.
4733. What business does he carry on ? It is a general store.
4734. Numbers of Chinamen visit there, do they not ? Yes.
4735. Is there any gambling carried on there ? I never saw any gambling there.
4736. Do not Chinamen visit the place to decide the plan of campaign ? Oh, no ; you see no gambling
there.
4737. That firm are agents for lotteries, are they not ? No.
4738. Is it not a fact that they are the bankers for various gambling-places ? No ; I never heard that.
4739. Do you not know that the money is placed there by several gambling-houses ? I never saw it.
4740. How often do you visit there ? One or twice, or three times a week.
4741. When you are visiting there do you see plenty of Europeans there ? I see them buying there.
4742. And do you not see them there buying lottery tickets ? I never saw any.
4743. What time of the day do you visit there ? At different times.
4744. Do you remember their being taken up by the police and fined some two years ago ? No ; I do
not remember.
4745. Try and remember if they were not fined £50 in the lower Courts on that occasion, and then appealed
to the higher ? I do not remember.
4746. Who is the keeper of that place ? Ah Sing.
4747. And you do not know of your own knowledge that a fine of £50 was paid out of funds kept at that
very place ? No.
4748. How many are connected with that firm of Ah Sing ? There are two partners.
4749. Who are they ? Ah Choy and Ah Sing.
4750. They are reputed to be rather wealthy, are they not ? Yes ; they have plenty of goods always
coming in.
4751. Do you know that a portion of their wealth has been made out of syndicate shares in gaming-houses ?
I cannot say about that. All I know is that they do a very good business. 4752.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 119
4752. And you know that a large number of Europeans visit there day and night ? I never saw any. Yuen Tab.
4753. "What are your own opinions in reference to Chinese gambling and opium-smoking ? Opium spoils —" -^-— n
the constitution. It is no good. I myself have nothing to do with it, but it is bad for those who do 2 0ot-' 1891,
smoke it.
4754. Do you think that gambling-dens improve the character or degrade it ? I have heard that gambling
is good when they win and bad when they Jose.
4755. You are a mature man of a good age. I want your opinion— not what you have heard ? I have
nothing to do with it, and so I cannot say.
4756. Are you in favour of it ? I shall not say either way.
4757. You must say ; you must answer the question ? I don't know, and so I cannot say.
4758. You are before a Court and must answer the question ? It is no use asking me, I have nothing to
do with it.
4759. You are a member of the community, and are responsible for its good government ? I do not go '
myself, but my heart would say that it is no good.
4760. What age are you ? 47.
4761. Are you as reticent upon other questions as you are upon this ? Well, I like to mind my own
business.
4762. Well, can you explain why it is that your countrymen are so desirous of evading a direct answer to
this question ? I am a neutral man as far as gambling is concerned, and having nothing to do with it,
don't want to answer that question at all.
4763. Supposing the people of this country were to rise up and assault your countrymen, would that be
good. Would you object to giving an expression of opinion as to whether that would be good or bad ?
I should say that it would be bad.
4764. Well when we are told that Chinese gambling is degrading the youth and manhood of this city
have we not right to an expression of opinion from you as a citizen who are protected by the laws of
the country, as to whether it is good or bad ? Excuse me, but there are consultation-sweeps carried on by
Europeans in this city.
4765. We are not talking about consultation-sweeps now, we are talking about Chinese gambling. We
think that one is as bad as the other, but we want an expression of opinion from you regarding the latter ?
Gambling of all kinds has its good and it has its bad.
4766. Where does its goodness lie ? It does those good who win. Suppose in a sweep you draw for £1
£25,000 ; then it is good.
4767. Did you ever get any of that kind of goodness ? I buy tickets sometimes.
4768. Did you ever win anything ? No.
4769. Then, according to ycur own code, you should say it is bad ? Yes ; when I lose it is bad.
4770. How many times have you bought tickets ? I have bought one ticket.
4771. Do you know that there are some of your countrymen in this city who would hurt those who told
the truth in answer to these questions ? I am a business man, and have nothing to fear.
4772. If you were in a Court in China and refused to answer these questions, what would they do to you ?
It would be just the same.
4773. Would they not bamboo you ? No ; they could not punish me. I am not a criminal, and I
cannot tell them more than I know.
4774. But if you were before the Court, would they not compel you to answer the questions ? It would
be just the same.
4775. Do you not feel responsible for seeing the laws of this country that is protecting you carried into
effect ? Yes.
4776. Do you not know that the fan-tan is against the laws of this country ? I know that they can be
caught.
4777. Then, being contrary to law, do you not think it is bad ? Yes ; if the law says it is bad then it
must be.
4778. At all events, then, you understand that the laws are passed for the good government of the
•country ? Yes.
4779. So you admit that gambling being contrary to law must be bad ? Yes.
4780. Mr. Quong Tart.'] You have heard a great many complaints, firstly, about gambling, secondly, about
opium-smoking, and thirdly, about bad smells in the houses ? Yes.
4781. Now, you are a man'of standing and respectability, always representing your community at meetings
of the Chinese citizens, and I want you to say whether it is a fact that there is a great deal of gambling,
■ filth, and opium-smoking, in the Chin'ese houses here ? In some cases there would be filth ; but I am not
aware that there is gambling and opium-smoking to any extent.
4782. You remember that through these complaints, the Government appointed the Commission, and it is
our duty to inquire into the truth of the statements made by the deputation that waited upon the Premier.
There has already been a great deal of evidencce sent in to the Commission— so much gambling, so much
opium-smoking, and so many filthy places, and we want you to furnish us with all the assistance in your
power, to prosecute the inquiry ? I want to explain how opium was forced upon the Chinese. It was
forced upon them by Englishmen.
4783. What percentage of the Chinese in Sydney are gamblers and opium smokers, and what percentage
are good respectable citizens ? How can I tell that ? You can tell as well as I can.
4784. Can you tell how many communities from China are represented here ? Chang Sing, Toon Goon,
Heong Shang, See Yip, Sam Yip, Har Ear, and Go You.
4785. Which is-tthe worst class— the class that smokes opium and gambles the most ? I cannot tell that.
I only know that I do not smoke. I suppose Europeans of one community cannot tell with regard to
other European communities.
4786. We want to see the Chinese places carried on properly in future— no gambling, and no opium-
smoking ; and we want you, as a leading Chinese citizen, to make any suggestions you can as to how to
do this ? That rests with the Commission itself.
4787. But I am asking for your opinion? I would be glad to follow the lead of the Commission.
TUESDAY,
120 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
TUESDAY, 6 OCTOBER, 1891.
tyxtstnt:—
Tiie Mayor (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pkesldent.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., QUONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STTTAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Mr. Thomas Playfair called and examined: —
J*T\ T.- 4788. President.} You are an alderman of G-ipps Ward, in the City of Sydney, Mr. Playfair ? Yes.
_«2J^L 4789. And an ex-Mayor of Sydney ? Yes.
6 Oct. 1891 4790. How long have you been an alderman of the City of Sydney? Sixteen years next December.
4791. How long hare you been located in Lower George-street ? About thirty-two years.
4792. That is, carrying on business there ? Yes, about that.
4793. You are aware that there has been an outcry of late amongst the leading European residents of
Lower George-street with regard to the Chinese gambling-houses in that locality ? Yes.
4794. And these gambling-dens are situated in Lower George-street ? Yes.
4795. Erom the nature of your business, I suppose you have ample opportunities of observing the doings
of these people ? Yes.
4796. Is it a fact that the gaming in these places is carried on publicly ? I do not know that it is carried
on publicly ; but I do know that it is carried on there, because I have been told by one or two people that
have been victimised through it.
4797. In your opinion, do the police know that it is carried on largely ? I will not say that, because I
do not know.
4798. In your opinion, I am asking ; in other words, do you think the police must have known all this
time that gambling has been carried on extensively in the Chinese establishments we are referring to ?
Certainly, I believe they must have known that it has been carried on.
4799. And you arrived at that conclusion because it is carried on without any attempt at concealment — is
that the case ? All I know about the matter is from hearsay.
4800. Have you from time to time observed a number of Europeans going into what are reputed to be
gaming-houses? No; although I have lived there so many years I do not know one gambling-den in
the place.
4801. You know nothing about the proclivities of the Chinese in the direction of gambling? No ; I have
heard of it, of course.
4802. Are you a property owner in the neighbourhood of George-street North ? Yes, I am.
4803. How many houses have you in George-street ? Four.
4804. Can you give us the numbers ? My own place is No. 103, and there are three others adjoining the
watch-house.
4805. Are any of these places let to Chinese ? No.
4806. Have you ever been offered a bonus to let one of your houses to Chinese for gambling purposes ?
No ; I have never heard of such a thing.
4807. What rents do you get from your three houses adjoining the police station ? I receive £3 a week
for each of them.
4808. What rent did you get from the same houses five years ago ? The same rent — £3 a week.
4809. You have always got £3 a week for them ? Yes, ever since I built them.
4810. The rent has not varied during five years ? No.
4811. Of course you have an intimate knowledge, or some knowledge, of the police who do duty in the
locality? Yes, I have lived for a long time within a few doors of them. There are several new
hands there lately.
4812. Do you know Inspector Atwill ? Yes.
4813. How long has he been on duty in Lower George-street ? He has been down that end of the town
for many years — I forget how many years— as inspector. He was in the Water Police Court before that.
I cannot tell you the time.
4814. Can you not give an idea ? I cannot.
4815. Has he been there ten years ? I think he has ; the years go by so quickly that one loses count.
4816. You do not mean to assert that time travels now quicker than it did ten years ago ? With me it
does.
4817. However, do you think Inspector Atwill has been there ten years ? Yes ; I think he has.
4818. Do you know anything about Inspector Atwill's private affairs ? No.
4819. Do you know whether he was well off when he came there ? No ; I do not.
4820. Do you know where Inspector Atwill lives now ? He did live in Kent-street until recently.
4821. What sort of house does he live in ? He lived in a small house in Kent-street.
4822. Is he, in your opinion, a man of any means ? I would not like to say so. I never heard so. I
should not think, from his appearance, that he was a man of any great means.
4823. How many children has he, do you know ? That I could not tell you.
4824. Do you know how Inspector Atwill got the property he owns in Princes-street? No. I may say
I merely know him as a neighbour, and I would not like to say much about his private affairs ; but I
should not think he was a man of very large or considerable means.
4825. Does he own any property to your knowledge ? I know nothing about that.
4826. Do you know anything of the Chinese merchants in Lower George-street ? Yes • I know several
of them. '
4827. Will you kindly name them ? I know On Chong, and On Chik— he has moved away now—
Gee Hick, and others. J
4828. Are any of those you name keeping or connected with Chinese gambling-houses ? No ■ Gee
Hick, I may mention, has been a neighbour of mine for five years. He has nothing of that kind I am
positive.
4829 Did you ever hear it suggested that Inspector Atwill, or any other member of the police force, had
been bribed, to induce him to connive at the carrying on of Chinese gaming in that locality ? No ; I
never heard anything of the kind. 4g3Q
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OJ7 EVIDENCE.' ' 121
4830.. Did it ever occur to you personally,' that the police must have been bribed to permit of gaming . Mr.T. ^,
being carried on in that open manner, to such a large extent down 'there ? No ; ' I cannot ■ say it ever " Playfair- ",
entered my mind. ■ -.•,■. >< •■' /— —A""'~"x 3
4831. Did you reflect upon it yourself, or inquire in your own mind how it _, was, or is,' that such a ' 6 0ct '1891/
state of affairs should exist there without any interference from the properly 'constituted 'authorities ?
Yes ; I have. ' • ..'.;■•..«. i
4832. And what conclusion did you come to ? The conclusion I have come to is that the men who
patronise the Chinese gambling-dens work with the keepers of them, and go -in -on 'the quiet ;. in fact
they, help to keep it going by co-operating with the Chinese, to defeat exposure. ' The Chinamen know
their customers, I suppose. . i i ■'• ■■ « '
4833.' Then you think the police must have known that this gaming was carried on publicly down there,
and that you or I could go in and play ? I cannot say they must have known ; but they may have
known— it is very likely they do, just as well as I, or better for the matter of that. ''
4834. Do you know if it is a fact that anyone— you or I, for instance— might go in to one of these places
at any time without molestation ? I would not say that exactly. I have seen one or two standing in
front of the places pointed out to me as gambling-houses, > but you would 'not know that gambling was
going on there. ;■ ■
4835. Does your business require you to be in Lower G-eorge-street the greater part of the day ? Yes.
4836. Have you ever been accosted by any of the Chinese keeping these places— in other words, have you
ever been solicited to go in and play ? < No, never.
4837. Have you ever heard of persons going down Lower George-street being ' accosted by these
Chinese? No. ' '
4838._ Have you ever heard of females being insulted by the Chinese in that locality ? No, I never heard
of it in my life ; and Lower George-street, you may say, is a kind of village, in one sense, for when any-'
thing takes place everyone knows it at once.
4839. Do you know Sergeant Higgins, Mr. Playfair ? I do. '
4840. How long have you known him ? Oh, I have known him for twenty years.
4841. Is he in the police force now ? Yes.
4842. ■ Is he a man of any means— does he possess property ? Yes ; he has several houses, I believe. ,
4843.' Is it a suspicious thing, in your mind, or have you any reason to suspect, that he acquired the
property by reason of bribes received from the Chinese, or from money obtained in some discreditable
way ?, No ; certainly not.
4844. Do you know how he acquired this property — Mr. Higgins ? I do.
4845. Tell me how he acquired it ? It was this way : About eighteen or nineteen years ago there was a
lot of land to be sold at the back of Kendall's mill. It was offered at auction, but they could not sell it,
and it was afterwards sold for £5 a foot. I bought three or four allotments myself. The land was sold
very cheap there. I was offered very liberal terms ; in fact people would hardly believe it now ; and I
know that Carney and Higgins were offered and obtained unlimited terms.
4846. Did Carney buy at the same time ? Yes.
4847.; What did he do with the land he purchased ? He built on it.
4848. Must he not have had a considerable amount of money to build ? No, not a great deal, because
first of all they had the land on such easy terms, being given an unlimited time to pay ; then they bought
their bricks cheap, and did a lot of their own work, when off duty, such as laying out the gutters, and
putting up the closets. I have seen them there dozens of times. These men were saving and industrious,
and 'got their property in that way. The houses took a long time to build. They bought the bricks by
small lots, and all the drainage works and the water-closets were done by themselves.
4849. This man Carney, you speak of, is not in the police force now, is he ? No ; but he was a great
many years in the force.
4850. Has he any other property that you know of ? I do not know of any other.
4851.. How many houses has he there ? They have two apiece in Playfair-street, and have built one or
two in Upper Gloucester-street.
4852. Have you heard of Sergeant Higgins buyingproperty to the extent of £2,000 or £3,000, lately ? No ;
I have heard nothing of that kind ; but this property which I have told you of must have paid very well,
for they were renting at 18s. and £1 a week not long ago, and they were built very cheap. , I know if I
had to build the houses they would have cost twice as much.
4853. Has Sergeant Higgins got any mortgage over his property ? I don't know anything about it.
4854. You are sure he did not buy the land subject to any mortgage ? Yes; he was given ample time to
do it. i
4855. How long ago is it since he bought that land ? It is nearly twenty years, I should think.
4856. Do you know Constable Adair ? I do not know him by name.
4857. He is called Hughey Adair in that quarter ; — do you know him by that name ? I know a great '
many constables, but not by name.
4858. He is always, or frequently, in company with Sergeant Higgins ? I know him — yes.
4859. Do you know where he lives ? No.
4860. You know nothing of the circumstances of Constable Adair ? No.
4861. Have you ever heard that he, or any other member of the police force, was ever presented with (
gifts of watches, chains, or rings — diamond rings — or presents of any kind by way of bribes ? ? No ;
Inever heard anything of that kind. ;
4862. Did you ever hear that Sergeant Higgins was presented with groceries, or anything of the kind, by
the Chinese in that quarter ? No, never in my life.
4863. Did you know Sergeant Dawson ? Yes ; he has been out of the force some time.
4864. Has he acquired ajiy property, do you know ? I know nothing about his private affairs. I have
not seen him for years.
4865. Do you know Constable Beadman ? Yes.
4866. Is he in the force now ? That I really cannot tell you. I do not look out for them.
4867.' Have you seen or had any conversation with any members of the police force during the last ,
month ? Conversation about what ?
4868. About the Chinese gambling and the appointment of this Commission ? " No.
272— Q 4869.
122 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE.
Mr. 4869. Have you had any conversation with any person outside of the police force with regard to this
T. Playfair. Commission ? "Well, it is a general matter of conversation with, everybody down there.
'T*- *""">, 4870. In any of those conversations has anything transpired of importance. Have you been requested,
6 Oct., 1891. for ingtance> to advocate the cause of any of the policemen down there ? No ; they would not come to
ask me to do anything like that. "Why should I advocate their cause ?
4871. Having regard to your long residence in the locality, they might have asked you to reply as to what
you knew of them ? One or two did ask mo if I had been examined, and I replied that I had not.
4872. Tou only got your summons to appear about two days ago ? Tes.
4873. Have you seen any members of the police force to speak to since then ? No. I hope the Com-
mission does not think that I am here in any sense as an advocate of the police. I know and appreciate
them as constables, nothing more, and I would not take their part more than anybody else. I have no
friends among them. .
4874. Have you heard or do you know that the fact of these Chinese places being established in Lower
George-street has to a considerable extent raised the rents of properties north of Bridge-street ? No, I
don't think so.
4875. Tou do not think it has ? No. Lower George-street is not so good a business place as it was
thirty years ago — not as to have generally.
4876. Is that in consequence of the advent of the Chinese in that quarter ? No ; other things have
tended to produce the change I speak of. Thirty years ago Lower George-street was the outlet for all
the traffic from Balmain, Pyrmont, North Shore, Watson's Bay, and Manly Beach. The people coming in
the boats from these places would go to Lower George-street and buy all their goods there, particularly
in wet weather. Since then the trade has been either localised by the development of the suburbs, or has
been extended to the other end of the city, where so many attractive shops have been established. It is in
consequence of all that that the change has taken place.
4877. When the A.S.N. Co. came down there it gave a fillip to business in that quarter, did it not ? Tes,
it brought some trade certainly, but it did not increase the traffic to any extent, as the people came to and
from the steamers in cabs or 'buses.
4878. Did it not tend to increase the rents in the neighbourhood ? No ; the fact is that those who did
come there with the idea of a marked development in trade taking place, were disappointed. Those who
came and took houses down there over the heads of other people, at a higher rent, did so under the
impression that the A.S.N. Co. being established there would bring the people to that quarter, and so
improve it from a business point of view ; but it did, as it turned out, and, as I have said, Lower George-
street to-day is practically not so good a business place as it was 30 years ago.
4879. Are you down there much at night, Mr. Playfair ? No ; very little lately.
4880. How many years have you been in Lower George-street ? I resided there twenty-six years. I do
not live there now.
4881. Up to what year did you reside in Lower George-street ? Until 1886.
4882. That is five years ago ? Tes.
4883. During the last five years where have you resided ? In Darlinghurst Boad.
4884. I believe you have lived in Argyle-street for some time ? Tes, I lived at my shop twenty years, and
in the Argyle House six years.
4885. Are you ever down Lower George-street at night-time now ? No, unless it might be on the occasion
of a West Sydney election, or that sort of thing.
4886. Tou are not much there on Saturday either ? No ; my son does the business there.
4887. I suppose you have had conversations with some of the Chinese down there occasionally ? Not
much. I only know a few of the merchants, such as I have already mentioned.
4888. Do they not buy their meat from your shop ? No ; they do not buy any meat from white men, they
buy from their Own countrymen.
4889. Did you read the statements which appeared in the papers lately, with regard to the Chinese in
Lower George-street — particularly the statements made by the deputation which waited upon the Premier
on that subject, in July last? I did read some of them, but I forget what they were about.
4890. If it was stated that the Chinese in that part of the city made themselves such a nuisance that
ladies would not pass there, that the business of bona fide shopkeepers was seriously affected, and that
trade had greatly fallen off, as compared with five years ago, would you think that a highly-coloured
statement ? Tes, I should think it was, certainly.
4891. Supposing one of your shops were empty now would you not get more rent for it now than you
would have got five years ago ? No.
i 4892. Suppose you let it for a gambling-house do you think you would get more ? I have had no trans-
actions with those places. In the first place I would not let one of my shops to a gambling-house keeper.
I cannot give you an idea whether they pay more than Other people. I may say that there is not much
shopping, in the ordinary sense, down there ; most of the trade is with butchers, bakers, oilskin and tar-
paulin makers. No large fancy shops thrive by the shipping trade, which is the principal trade down
there. Tou may gather an idea of the state of things down there from the experience of Mr. Beale, who
has four shops in Lower George-street. He paid a big price for a property, and determined to clear the
Chinese out, do up the houses, and make them attractive as business places, in the hope of securing European
tenants, and thus improving the neighbourhood. The consequence was that he had those four shops
empty for six months.
4893. He could not let them to Europeans ? No ; and at last he let them to Chinamen again, after
keeping them empty for six months.
4894. Is it likely, in your opinion, that Mr. Beale refused to let shops to European tenants ? No. On
the contrary he refused Chinese tenants, and cleared them all out.
4895. What rent does he get for those houses do you know ? That I cannot say. They are nearly new
houses, and stand opposite to On Chong's. But they remained empty, as I have said, for six months,
simply for the reason that there is no outlet from Lower George-street. At Miller's Point, for instance,
the people have shops near to them, and the same with Dawes' Point.
4896. Shops extend from George-street to Miller's Point, and that affects the George-street business ?
Tes ; and the people like to go up town and do their shopping at Hordern's and other places.
4897. Would they not go there 10 or 15 years ago ? Tes, they did so then. The butchers and bakers do
the
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 128
the big trade down Lower G-eorge-street. But the working man, and particularly their wives, like very Mr- <
much to take a walk up-town and buy for themselves whatever they may want ; in other respects the ■ FlayfSr'
ordinary weekly supplies they obtain close by, or near to their own dwellings. There is no scope for retail 6'2r^mj
trade down there. The only safe investment is in large stores in that locality. "'
4898. Who was in charge of that division prior to Inspector Atwill? Mr. Johnson, I believe.
4899. Where is he now ? He is retired.
4900. Has he made his fortune ? I do not think so.
4901. What is his age ? He is over 60 years of age.
4902. Is he in receipt of a pension ? Yes. He was a great many years in the service.
4903. Can you assist the Commission in any way in tracing acts of bribery on the part either of. Chinese
or Europeans with a view of influencing the police to wink at Chinese gambling in Lower George-street ?
No ; I have never heard of such a thing. I have never heard that there was any suspicion of bribery as
regards the police ; and I think it could hardly be kept secret, where you have to deal with a large body
of men. Something would be sure to crop out. In the case of a body of men like that they are the best
detectives of themselves.
4904. Do you think, yourself, that the police must have been bribed, seeing that this gambling has been
carried on so long, almost if not quite openly, without interruption ? I do not think so. That is my
opinion. Considering the body of men there, surely something would have slipped out among them if
there had been anything of the kind going on. At the same time you must understand there might have
been a bribe without my knowing it.
4905. In your opinion, for bribing to have been effectual, must it not have been general among the police
patrolling Lower George-street ? I cannot give an opinion like that.
4906. Well, let me put it in another way. Supposing you and I were members of the police force, one
being on duty during the day, and the other being on night duty, for bribery to be effectual in our case —
that is, on our beat — would it not be necessary that we should both be bribed as regards the day and
night ? Certainly they would have to bribe the whole lot.
4907. Then you think the bribing, if such there was, must have been general ? Tes, I think so.
4908. The constable would report to his superior officers, and the latter would be to blame if he did not
take action ? Tes, they would certainly have to bribe the whole lot, and the Chinese are pretty wide
awake, they would not pick one man out of a crowd.
4909. Tou are a keen man of the world, Mr. Playfair ; do you know of any policeman, either in the force
or having left it, reported to be rich ? No, I do not know of any such.
4910. Tou do not know of any? No.
4911. This Mr. Atwill, who has been on duty in Lower George-street ten years, is he a man of means, do
you know ? I should not think so.
4912. Do you know if he owns any property ? I do not.
4913. Does he own the house he lives in ? I cannot say that. I have always looked upon Inspector
Atwill as a man of small means.
4914. Has he a large family ? Tes. I may say at once that I never heard any rumour or intimation
whatever that Inspector Atwill was a wealthy man.
4915. Have you, in the capacity of Mayor of the city, ever made any visitations to the opium-dens in any
part of the city ? When I was Mayor I visited a number of places, which I condemned.
4916. In what part of the city ? All over the city. We condemned some horrible places in the northern
end of the city. I could never have believed that any human being would or could live in such places. I
was told at the time that they were used as gambling-houses. All I can say is, that if any white man
went into such dens as those to win money he deserved to lose it. I should think they would lose their
lives if they stopped there long. I never saw such places as those we condemned. The stench was some-
thing abominable. They have been pulled down long ago — the same year they were condemned, I believe.
4917. Was there much overcrowding in the houses you condemned ? I only went into the houses recom-
mended to me to be condemned. Of course I know gambling is carried on to a large extent in Lower
George-street— every one knows it. I know the case of one man, a tenant of mine, who owed me rent,
and who, nevertheless, was earning £4 or £5 a week as a coal-lumper, or something of that kind. He
was working for Mr. Daley, stevedore, who told me so. On one occasion I saw him in the street, and his
wife pointed him out to me, as he was going towards the Chinamen's. I walked up the street, followed by
the woman, and the man, when he saw me, put his hand in his pocket and gave the poor woman £1. He
then went away to gamble the money with the Chinamen. He had £4 or £5 that week, but was paying
no one.
4918. Mr. Abigail.'] Tou know gambling is contrary to the law of the land ? Tes.
4919. And yet it is known that fan-tan is carried on in these places; you know that? I only know it
from hearsay. They keep it very quiet.
4920. Do you think the fact of these Chinese congregating in the dens of Lower George-street is degrading
or demoralising to the whole of the locality ? Oh, certainly. If we could get rid of them it would be a
good thing. They do not improve the locality, that is certain.
4921. Tou know, I suppose, that a large number of the places down there carry on no legitimate business
whatever, so far as appearances are concerned ? I cannot say from personal knowledge ; but I know that
you will see nobody in the place, except perhaps, one man standing at the door ; and it stands to reason
that there must be something going on to keep them going.
4922. And in some instances they keep their shutters up like the houses represented in the photographs
produced ? Tes. As a business man you would not think that was a reasonable mode of doing business,
or one likely to succeed ; in a word, they could scarcely carry on a legitimate trade in that way ? _ Well,
you would think not— that is from a European's point of view ; but then the Chinese have a peculiar way
of doing business. Eor instance, On Chong does an enormous business, and yet he shows nothing .at all,
or scarcely anything at all in his place.
4923. Does he not show merchandise in his window ? I do not think so. Chinese merchants do not put
much in their windows. Gee Hick does a large business ; but he follows the usual style of Chinamen so
far as stocking the windows is concerned.
4924. We have been informed that 25 out of the 32 or 33 Chinese houses down there have no business
but gambling ; can you say whether that is the case ? That you can only tell by experience. As you
go
124 CHINESE OAMBLIXG COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. go by these places everything seems very quiet, and it is very hard to tell what business they do
T. Playfair. Qf course) there is no doubt but that those places are gambling-houses.
/T^K " 4925. Are we to understand that from your experience of them they are quiet people down there ? As
9 Oct., 1891. a general rule tliey appear so from the outside. You may see one of them standing iu the shop there,
looking as if butter would not melt in his mouth.
4926. Have you heard of any disturbances taking place in these gambling-dens? No. They may
happen of course, for I am away a great deal.
4927. Would you like to see the gambling suppressed, Mr. Playfair ? Tes ; I would bo glad to see them
cleared out of the neighbourhood altogether.
4928. Tou stated something about the sanitary condition of places in that part of the town— some-
thing about bad smells, and so forth ? Yes, that was in regard to the places I condemned during my
mayoralty.
4929. Have you noticed any smells emanating from the Chinese shops in Lower George-street ? Yes ;
I have noticed the smells peculiar to Chinese establishments— it is a kind of mixture of bad cigars and
opium.
4930. Mr. McKillop.] Is it not a fact that some of the rents in the locality are much higher than they
were formerly ? On the northern side of Argyle-street they are.
4931. But towards Hunter-street, or between Church-hill and Gallows-hill ? I cannot tell you about that.
4932. On the northern part of George-street you say the rents are higher ? Yes. A lot of property has
changed hands there, and the rents have risen from 35s. to £3 and £4.
4933. You say Sergeant Higgins has property in Playfair-street. Has he not several houses in Cumber-
land-street? No. He has property in Gloucester-street, alongside the steps — he has one house there.
4934. That is not the property you alluded to previously ? No. That is in Playfair-street.
4935. You do not know how he acquired the property in Gloucester-street ? No.
4936. You know Pelton and Nock ? Yes.
4937. How long have you known Pelton and Nock to be located in Lower George-street ? I have known
Mr. Pelton longer than Nock.
4938. How long has Mr. Pelton been there ? He has been a long time down there. He is over at the
North Shore now, I think. I never knew Mr. Nock personally.
4939. Then, if it has been stated by several persons in evidence here that business men in Lower George-
street do not do the trade there now that they formerly did, that would not be the fact according to your
statement ? Well, I cannot go so far as to say that.
4940. Do you think they do the same amount of business there now that they did in years gone by ? It
is impossible for me to tell you that.
4941. Were you on intimate terms with Mr. Pelton ? Yes ; I knew him very well.
4942. Did he do a large business ? Yes ; when I knew him first he did a pretty extensive business
everywhere — extending to the North Shore and other places. Then he started a house in North Sydney
himself. That might have taken part of his business away, but this is only supposition. I know nothing
about his private business.
4943. How long is it since Mr. Pelton left off taking a practical interest in the George-street shop ?
Several years, I think.
4944. At the time you have been speaking of he had only one shop ? Yes.
4945. They — that is Pelton and Nock — have two shops now in that locality, have they not ? Not that I
am aware of. Their place is right opposite Gallows-hill.
4946. You have referred to the case of a coal-lumper who spent his earnings, some £4 or £5 a week, in
a gambling-den. Do coal lumpers average £5 a week ? No ; I should say they could not average that.
I only told you what Mr. Daly stated to me.
4947. You do not know what the average earnings would be ? Well they could not all earn £5 a week.
As I have said, in this case I only went by Mr. Daly's statement, and what the man's wife told me.
4948. Are there any other cases within your knowledge where men, being in your debt, not only as to
rent, but for goods from your shop and other things, have been unable to pay you what they owe through
their gambling propensities ? I have been told indirectly that has been the cause of it ; and I have
known men to be earning good wages who would not pay anybody. I am a bad landlord in one way — I
never put the baliffs in ; if the tenants will not pay I simply turn them out.
4949'. Eegarding these Chinese gaming-houses, if the same amount of gambling had been carried on in
the same open manner by Europeans, without any check being put upon their, operations by the proper
authorities, would you not think or have some suspicion that there was something rotten in the adminis-
tration of the police force somewhere ? Well, you see it is difficult to consider the two cases in the
same light. Where Europeans gamble it is done more openly. The Chinese, on the other hand, are
exceedingly cunning. I can only speak of their gambling from hearsay.
4950. Are you aware that there are notices, in writing, placed outside a number of these Chinese
gambling-shops, announcing that gambling is carried on night and day ? Notices in Chinese writing, do
you mean ?
4951. Yes ? No ; I did not know they went as far as that.
4952. Are you aware that the Government employ a Chinese interpreter? Yes.
4953. Therefore it would be easy to ascertain through an interpreter what these notices signify ?
Certainly. I tell you, gentlemen, I have been surprised myself that this gambling has not been put
down. I have long ago thought that something must be wrong. But then, as I have said, I suppose that
people who patronise these places assist the Chinese to escape detection.
4954. You have stated that you do not see people going in and out of these Chinese houses the same as
they would in the case of an ordinary place of business. Is it not a fact that you have heard on good
authority that people walk in and out of these places for the purpose of gambling, and that quite
openly ? Yes ; it certainly is common talk down there, that gambling is carried on in these places to a
very large extent.
4955. And with impunity ? Yes.
4956. Now, if the same were carried on by Europeans in like manner, would not the police have stepped
in long agoand put a stop to it ? Yes. But, as I have said, the Chinamen keep it as quiet as they can,
and are evidently assisted by the people who go to their places. Por instance, I go by there spveral
I ., , times
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 125
times a day, and I never see a body of white men going in at one time. On the other hand, look at the Mr- .
tote-shops kept by Europeans. Tou will see a number of men always congregated about the doors. T|Playfur.
4957. But is it not a fact that this congregation of people outside the tote-shops has only taken place fi'TTfifWi
since the police prosecutions against the running of totes inside were instituted; did they not previously '
carry on the game inside ? Well, I am not a good authority on the subject. I have never gambled in
my life.
4958. Mr. Quong Tart.\ Tou say there are a number of Chinese gambling-houses in Lower George-street ?
I do not say so from my own personal experience. I only go by what I have heard.
4959. Can you form any idea how it is they are allowed to carry on so freely down there ? I cannot tell
that ; it is because they are not caught, I suppose.
4960. Well, do you think the police do their duty in that respect ? I have never heard any complaints
against them. I believe the white men who visit those places assist the Chinese to keep it quiet.
4961. Is there much of it going on at night-time ? I cannot answer for the night-time ; I am only there
in the day-time ; and you may see people standing about there occasionally, but you cannot tell whether
they go in to buy anything or not. As I have said, I believe the white men assist to keep the game secret.
4962. Do you think the respectable Chinese assist the gamblers ? I cannot say. I have no reason to
think so.
4963. Mr. Hawthorne.] Have you ever had any of your houses occupied by Chinese ? Yes, one of them.
I bought it while a Chinaman was occupying it ; but as soon as his lease was up I cleared him out.
4964. Have you ever had a bonus offered you to let one of your houses in Lower George-street or its
vicinity? No.
4965. If it has been stated that a bonus has been offered to different landlords down there to let houses
to Chinese at a higher rate than European tenants pay, would that be true, do you think ? I do not think
so. My opinion is that the Chinese are pretty cunning fellows. They would rather wait till a landlord
had his house a long time empty, and then would go and make an offer to get it cheaper. I think they are
far too cunning to give a bonus.
4966. Then you think if any person living in that district has stated that it is almost impossible to obtain
a house down there, on account of the high prices asked for rent, that such statement is exaggerated ?
Tes ; I think so, certainly. "When we have the fact that houses have stood empty there for a long time —
in Argyle-street, or any other part, when a house has been empty for some time, a Chinaman, who has
been waiting his opportunity to get the place, will make an offer, and the landlord, tired of keeping his
house empty, will let it to him. That is the way I have looked at it.
4967. Tou have frequently seen a house empty for months down there ? Tes, there is one there now.
4968. From your knowledge of the Chinese character, you do not think it likely that while there are
empty houses about they would offer a bonus of £100 or £200 to get into one ? No ; I think they are
the wrong marks for that sort of thing.
4969. Tou have referred to Mr. Beale's buildings, and I think you said it was his original intention not to
let the shops to Chinese ? They were occupied by Chinese at the time.
4970. And did he give them notice to quit ? Tes,
4971. Intending to let them only to Europeans afterwards ? Tes. He had them done up at great
expense, with marble slabs outside, and so forth.
4972. This object was to make them generally attractive and suitable for European occupation ? Tes ;
but he could not let them, and they remained empty for some months.
4973. And at last he had to let them to the Chinese ? Tes.
4974. Do you know what rent he receives for the shops ? No, I cannot tell you what the rent is.
4975. Among the statements made by members of the deputation that waited on the Premier in regard
to the Chinese gambling evil, was one to the effect that ladies could not pass along Lower George-street
without being insulted. Have you any opinion to offer upon that ; or do you know if it is true ? I have
no personal knowledge of any such thing. There might have been some particular case, but it is a
question of proof. It might be true.
4976. Tou have a daughter, Mr. Playfair ? Tes.
4977. I presume she used to have occasion to pass up and down George-street, when you lived in that
locality. "Was she ever insulted by any of the Chinese there ? No.
4978. Y"ou would have heard of such a thing had it occurred ? Naturally. But my daughter would not
go out unattended there in the evening, and ladies would not be likely to be insulted, having a gentleman
to escort them. Besides I have not lived there for three years.
4979. Is it true that several ladies came to you for succour on one occasion ? No.
4980. So you think the statement that ladies could not pass along George-street, without being insulted,
is an exaggerated . statement, if not untrue ? I would not like to say that ; some persons might have
seen it.
4981. Have you ever heard of a case of the kind ? No, I never heard of such a thing.
4982. So the percentage of gambling is now greater than it was about three years ago ? That I cannot
say. I should say there was just as much then as now, but you hear more about it now.
4983. "Was the Anti-Chinese Gambling League in existence while you were member for that district ? No.
4984. "Were you asked to use your influence in the matter ? No. But I tried myself, and brought the
matter before the City Council.
4985. Did it ever strike you that there was no necessity for this wonderful stir among the residents of
Lower George-street, for the suppression of gambling among the Chinese ? I cannot say that there was
not. Because there are many hard working labouring men who spend all their money in these gambling-
dens. If you can drive out the gambling-dens do so. But] sometimes I blame the white men as much as
the Chinamen, for they assist them to carry on, and we know that if they could boycott the Chinamen as
competitors in the fields of labour, there would very soon be no Chinamen here.
4986. Have you ever suffered much from bad debts, owing to your customers spending their money in the
gambling-houses ? "Well, I have more about it lately than ever I did before.
4987. Has it been your experience in the past that you lost much in that way ? I have made bad debtsin
the cases of a few men. I have three or four houses for which I did not get paid for twelve months. But I
do not know that those men gambled their money away. I think the strike had a great deal to do with it.
4987*.
126
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
T Pi vf • 4987£. As a landlord or a business man do you thick you have lost much money through the existence of
T^*"' these Chinese gambling-dens in Lower G-eorge-street ? No. I have not looked upon it that my business
6©ot 1891 ^as De6n greatly afEected by the Chinese gambliog-shops.
4988. Do you think there is likely to be any truth in the statement as to the police receiving bribes of
diamond rings or other articles of jewellery from the proprietors of the Chinese gambling-shops ? All I
can say is, that I have never heard of such a thing.
4989. You think that if there was any truth in the statements, you would have heard something of it?
Well I think it stands to reason, seeing that I have lived within a few doors of th'e watch-house, especially
where there is a body of men always stationed there — you would think it would leak out somehow. That
is the common experience in such cases, I think.
4990. Have you ever found the Chinese liberal in the matter of making presents ? No. They may
sometimes give away a jar of ginger to show a neighbourly feeling, but nothing more, so far as I know.
4991. You have never known them to make a present beyond that in value to any one that you have come
in contact with ? No, I have never known of them being liberal. It has always been the other — they
are too cunning to give much away.
4992. You are in Lower George-street every day, I suppose ? Nearly so, with very few exceptions.
4993. Do you remember the visit of the Commission to Lower George-street lately ? I saw about it in
the papers.
4994. Do you know Inspector Atwill intimately? Oh, yes. I have known him for twenty years.
4995. If you meet him in the street you speak to him ? Yes.
4996. Do you think he is a man capable of accepting a bribe to induce him to be more lenient in the
execution of his ordinary duties as Inspector of Police ? No. On the contrary, I have always looked
upon Inspector Atwill as a strict man.
4997. Do you think he would be incapable of receiving a bribe ? Yes, I should say so. In matters of
that kind you will find out more by experience what a man is like, and as I have said, I have always found
Inspector Atwill to be rather a strict man. For instance, men get into trouble sometimes, and they will
come to the representatives of their district to get them out of it. I do not mean for any serious breaches
of the law, but some small matters. In such cases occasionally I have gone to Inspector Atwill, and
spoken to him, and I have always found him a very strict man indeed .
4998. Instead of being over-lenient you think he is very severe ? He is very strict in carrying out his
duty, always, in my experience.
4999. So that any statement which may have been made to the contrary, you would characterise as exagger-
ated, or contrary to fact, so far as your experience has gone ? I would not answer for any other
statement, one way or the other.
5000. You never met with any man who has stated to you that he ever gave a bribe, or knew of a bribe
being given to Inspector Atwill, or any other member of the police force ? No.
5001. Mr. MeKillop.~\ Do you know Sergeant M'Intosh ? Yes, I knew him when he was in charge
there.
5002. Do you remember any particular raid he made in the district ? I forget now. I know he was a
smart officer.
5003. Do you know if there was less gambling in Lower George-street then than now ? No ; I do not
know anything about it.
5004. What is your opinion of the morals of the Chinese down there ? Well, I have no chance of
studying that, but I do not believe they are a very moral class of people, so far as I know.
5005. Do you know if there is much prostitution carried on down there ? That I cannot say. Of course
I have heard reports of girls being found there. I hope the Commission will not think roe in favour of
keeping the Chinese in Lower George-street. They are by no means a desirable class of people to have
in amain street of the city. But then again they would be just as bad in a back street. In fact it is a
question whether there is not an advantage in having them in Lower George-street in one respect, for you
can see better what they are doing than if you had them in small back lanes.
5006. You stated a little while ago that you knew these places were frequented by working men. Have
you not also heard of a large number of respectable people going into these Chinese gambling-dens ?
Yes ; I have heard so. lknow when I saw the accounts of the Police Courts proceedings in connection
with the late raid, and saw that a number of young fellows whom I knew to be respectably connected had
been there, I was rather surprised.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. Henry Davies called and examined : —
Mr.H.Davies. 5007. Mr. Abiqail7\ Where do you live, Mr. Davies? At No. 1, Gloucester-street.
s~~~* v 5008. Do you 'keep the " Oriental Hotel" ? No ; I keep the " Mercantile Rowing Club Hotel."
6 Oct., 1891. 5009. How long have you lived in that part of the city ? About thirteen years.
5010. Have you always occupied the same position ? Within 100 yards of it.
5011. Then you have a very tolerable knowledge of what is going on in that particular neighbourhood ?
Yes, a very fair knowledge.
5012. You know that this Commission has been appointed to deal with the matter of Chinese gambling?
Yes.
5013. We want you if you can to assist the Commission with any information that may be useful to the
purposes of this investigation. In the first place, were you a member of the deputation that waited on
the Colonial Secretary ? No.
5014. I suppose you read an account of the statements that were made on that occasion ? 1 did.
5015. Certain members of the deputation made statements as to the bribery of the police ? Yes.
5016. Do you know anything of a definite character that would support such a statement ? No, decidedly
not.
5017. Have you heard anything definite with regard to bribery of the police ? No, never in my life.
5018. Do you know the members of the police force in that district ? I do.
5019. Do you know Inspector Atwill ? Yes, I did know him well.
5020.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 127
5020. How long have you known him ? Before he was inspector— when he was up the mountains, years Mr.ILDavieg.
ago. /^^^TN
5021. Do you think he is a man of property ? I should think he was. If he is not, he ought to be. A 6 0ct-» 1891#
man in his position should have money or property. He does not live up to his means I should say.
5022. Tou think out of his salary he ought to have accumulated wealth ? Most decidedly. Unless he
accumulates property, what is the good of the position he holds. It is only natural to suppose that a man
would.
5023. Prom your knowledge of Mr. Atwill, if it has been stated that his acquirement of property is the
result of bribes given him for overlooking the Chinese gambling, is that correct do you think ? No ; I
should think it very unlikely indeed from what I have seen of him. I have had no favours from Inspector
Atwill. I have been summoned by him. I am a law abiding citizen, so far as I can possibly be within
my calling. Still I have to break the law sometimes on Sunday, and I have been caught and fined, but I
have no grudge against Mr. Atwill on that account.
5024. You believe he conscientiously discharges the duties of his office ? Yes ; I do not think there is a
man in Sydney, so far as I know him, that does his duty more honestly.
5025. Do you know Sergeant Higgins ? Yes.
5026. How long have you known him ? About sixteen or seventeen years.
5027. What sort of a man is he ? I have always found him very diligent in the discharge of his duty.
He arrested me once.
5028. Do you know if he is a man of property ? Yes.
5029. He possesses property ? Yes.
5030. Do you know how he acquired his property ? "Well, by being a steady, saving man, I suppose,
and having an industrious wife to look after it. It is natural that a man of his position and years should
acquire property for his family. He never spent 5s. in his life since I have known him, so to speak.
5031. Have you ever heard of him receiving bribes or presents of any kind ? No, and I do not think he
would, from what I know of him. I know that I offered him something on one occasion — not as a bribe,
but to do something for me — and he told me that if he received anything it must go through the Inspector-
General of Police.
5032. Do you think he would take a bribe from one of these Chinese gambling-houses ? No, I do not
think he would stoop to take it from anyone.
5033. Do you know, or have you heard of any member of the police force receiving any presents of watches
chains, or jewellery, such as diamond rings, from any one in that part of G-eorge-street ? Not as bribes,
certainly. I know Sergeant Dawson received a present of some kind some time ago.
5034. The presentation in that case was publicity made, I think ? Yes.
5035. My questions have relation to matters on a different footing to that. In connection with our
investigation into the matter of Chinese gambling in the lower part of George-street, we have to consider
certain charges which have been levelled at the police, and our object accordingly is to elicit information
that will sustain or refute those charges. Hence the questions I have been putting to you on the subject ?
All I can say is, that I know nothing of the kind, and I think those people who say these things
should be made to prove who gave the presents, or said that they were made, so that it could be proved or
disproved. For instance, it might be all very well to say, " You have had so-and-so given to you, and you
had no right to receive it." But no one has any right to say that unless they can prove it. The members
of the League should be the ones to prove these statements.
5036. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Are you not referring to members of the deputation? Yes.
5037. Mr. Abigail.'] I am asking you these questions because we are dependent upon the evidence of those
who have lived a long time in the locality ? "Well, I have given you my opinion, and that has been entirely
without prejudice. I have been summoned by them for selling after hours, but I have nothing to say
against the police.
5038. You know nothing to justify the statement that they have received bribes for winking at the
existence of these gambling-dens ? No, I do not.
5039. And, of course, you have a good knowledge of what is going on in that part of the town? Yes, a
fairly good knowledge.
5040. Are there a large number of Chinese gambling-dens in Lower George-street ? About twenty or
thirty.
5041. Do any of those places carry on legitimate business ? No, I do not think they do.
5042. You think most of them carry on gambling and nothing else ? Yes.
5043. And is that carried on in an open manner, so that anybody may see what is going on? No, it is
not. I cannot get in there.
5044. You could not get in one of these places if you tried ? No, because I am not known. The Chinese
are just as clever as other people. They only admit such as are always going there, and who, consequently,
are well known to them.
5045. Do they never let in any one whom they do not know ? No.
5046. Have you ever tried personally ? Yes.
5047. And you have been refused ? Yes.
5048. "Was that recently, or some time ago ? It was about eighteen months or two years ago.
5049. Have you tried to enter one of these places recently ? No.
5050. "What object had you in trying to visit one of these places some time ago ? Simply to see how the
game went. I have played a bit at the box myself, but it was no good. You cannot enter there without
being known. It is just the same in European betting clubs. You cannot get into a certain room in
Tatter sail's without being known.
5051. Have you remarked that most of these places have white paper notices posted outside? Yes.
5052. Have you ever taken the trouble to ascertain what those notices mean ? No.
5053. Would you be surprised to learn that those notices announce that fan-tan is carried on there day and
night ? No, I would not be surprised after what I have seen in that place next to the " Exchange Hotel,"
where the police made the raid some time ago. These places are so arranged inside as to make it very
difficult to effect an entrance suddenly. The number of doors is quite confusing, and they are so arranged
that escape is easy. , . .
5054. Everybody down there knows that gambling is carried on in these places, I suppose ? I suppose so.
5055.
128 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr.H.Davies. 5055. And that it is contrary to law ? Yes ; everybody knows that it is contrary to law, just the same
/"^-*— -n as everybody knows that Sunday-selling is contrary to law, but the thing is to catch them. It is all very
6 Oct., 1891. wen t0 Bay) " Q.0 and d0 this or that," but it is another thing to do it.
5056. You think that the Chinese are more clever than the police? I think they know quite enough.
You know very well yourself that if you carry on an illegitimate trade — an illicit still, for example— you
would try to work it as quietly as possible, and have the place barricaded so that nobody could get in, if
possible. I may say that I was one of those asked to wait on the Premier in connection with the deputa-
tion, but I thought it was out of place.
5057. You thought they should have made an effort to prove the charges which were made on that occa-
sion before making statements of the kind regarding the character of a body of men ? Yes. They
should certainly have done so before making charges against a body of men like we have in the police
force here.
5058. Have you noticed young people going in and out of these gambling-shops all day long, Mr.
Davies ? In the afternoon I have noticed them.
5059. Have you remarked any young girls ? No.
5060. "What is your opinion as to the influence of the Chinese in Lower George-street upon the surround-
ing neighbourhood — do you think it is of a demoralising character ? I do ; and I believe if the citizens
would assist the police it would be easy to suppress them.
5061. How do you mean ? Let them assist the police to get into these places. It could easily be
managed, for the police being once inside would not arrest those who were in their confidence.
5062. If we have been told that anybody can pass in and out of these gambling-places without let or
hindrance, is that correct ? No ; you have been told a falsehood.
5063. That is your opinion ? I am sure of it. I have tried myself, and could not get in.
5064. Have you any knowledge of the extent of the losses or winnings in these places ? I have known
men to go there and gamble their whole week's wages away, and then come to borrow a £1 to give to
their, wives.
5065; Have you known many such cases ? Yes ; several. If they want to suppress the gambling, the
citizens will have to go and assist the police — it can soon be suppressed if they do that.
5066. Do you think the law is sufficiently stringent ? I am sure it is not. You can go and buy one of
those tickets any time, and the law cannot touch you.
5067. It is not contrary to law ? No ; or if it is the law does not touch them.
5068. Mr. McKillop.'] Are you sure that it is not illegal ? I would not say that, but I know that the '
law would not touch them for it. I have tried it to find out for myself.
5069. Do you know anything about the sanitary condition of these places ? I know nothing about that.
5070. Have you heard that the people who keep these gambling-houses pay excessively high rents ? I
believe they do.
5071. Have you heard of any of them giving bonuses to landlords to secure possession of houses down
there ? I have heard so, but I know nothing of it personally.
5072. Mr. Abigail.'] Have you any information whatever that would support the statements which have
been made to the effect that any of the police referred to— namely, Inspector Atwill, Sergeant Higgins,
Dawson, Macintosh, or Constable Adair, or others, have been bribed at any time by the Chinese who keep
these gambling-houses ? No. I have lived as a neighbour alongside Constable Adair for some years, and
a more straightforward and honest man I never had dealings with. The same with Sergeant Higgins.
As to his having some property, why should he not have it. He has been in the service thirty years,
and bought land when it was cheap. "When a man raises a family he naturally puts by for a future day,
unless he is a mere brute, and nothing else.
5073. Did you ever hear about a book-case being presented to Inspector Atwill ? No.
5074. Or that chests of tea were sent to his place at any time ? No.
5075. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Did ever you hear of the police in your district being presented with articles of
jewellery or furniture of any kind ? No ; never. Only in the case of Mr. Dawson, to which I have
referred.
5076. How long have you been in business in Sydney ? I have been in business in Sydney for twenty-
two years.
5077. How long have you been in business in Lower G-eorge-street ? In that district I have been in
business thirteen years.
5078. How many times during the last five or six years have you been fined for breaches of the licensing
law? Twice, I think.
5079. "Was that for Sunday selling ? Yes.
5080. Do you find the police in that district particularly strict ? Yes ; rather too strict. You must
imagine I find them strict when I tell you that I keep watch at my door all day long on Sunday, and
when I see a policeman coming I shut my door, or when I see a stranger coming I shut the door also.
5081. Then we are to infer from your answers that you are in the habit of breaking the law? Yes.
5C82. Have you, since you received your notice to attend here, been in communication with, or have you
had any conversation with any member of the police force ? No.
5083. You have had no conversation with any member of the police stationed in that district ? No. I
have not spoken to one of them since.
5084* Have you had any conversation with Inspector Atwill, or any of his men since this Commission
started ? . No.
5085.^ Mr. McKillop.] Are you a registered bookmaker, Mr. Davies ? "What has that got to do with the
question?
5086. I am asking you the question, whether you are or not a registered bookmaker, and I must trouble '
you to answer yes or no ? I am not going to answer it.
5087. I must, refer to you, Mr. President.
5088. President] It will be necessary for you to answer that question. I see no reason whv You should
object to it. • • J J
5089. Witness.] I refused to answer the question because it has nothing to do with what I came here to
give evidence upon.
5090. "When a witness comes here to give evidence, he has to be examined as to his calling. You will
therefore answer the question, yes or no ? I was registered, but I have given over betting. 5091.
CHINESE GAMBLlNO COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCl!. 129
5089. Now, if the same amount of gambling were carried on by Europeans running totes, in the same Mr. H.
open manner, do you not thmk the police would have stepped in long ago and stopped it f Well, I DaTie8-
think there is just as much carried on by Europeans, and, so far as the totes are concerned, if you under- B C"*— ~\
stood it, there is not a bigger system of robbery in existence in Sydney. These totes are the biggest6 0ct' 1891,
swindles ever known m the world.
5090. Is it not a fact that the police are continually making raids upon the totes ? Yes. But they are
hard to get at And you know that the Chinese are still more difficult to deal with, because their
language is different But with regard to the totes, they are the biggest swindles in the Australian
Colonies I believe George Adams consultations are conducted legitimately, but the smaller ones are
nothing but gross swindles from start to finish.
5091. Tour place is situated at the Dawes' Point end of George-street ? Yes
these ScesflT ^ "* & position to see what is SoinS 0D> and y°u can see tne PeoPle goinS in to
5093. You have said that only those persons who are well known are allowed to enter these places?
Yes. It you are not known to them they will not allow you to go in
5094. What class of people mostly frequent these places ? All sorts— working men, young clerks, and
civil servants. You could tell that from the persons who were found there on the occasion of the late
raid. Ihere was Mr. Oliff s son, who put the advertisement in the paper to say it was the first time he
had been there. I wanted the League to take it up, and prove that he had been there dozens of times.
5095. Do you know oi your own knowledge that the keepers of these Chinese gambling-houses make large
sums ot money t 1 have heard that they make large fortunes, and go home. I do not know it personally.
5096. Do you know, or have you heard that policemen have walked in and out of these gambling-houses
both in plain clothes and in uniform ? No, I have not. Nobody could go in there except they were
known as frequenters of the place. You can go in and buy lottery tickets.
5097. Do you think if those lottery tickets were similarly marked in English, and the places were run by
Europeans, that the police would allow them to proceed without interference ? Well, you would be able
to get at them sooner than these Chinamen, who are a cunning race of people.
5098. It is a lottery to all intents and purposes ? Yes.
5099. And if the same section of paper were marked in English so that you and I could understand it,
and it was exposed in the same manner, would not the police swoop down on the place so running a
lottery ? Yes ; I suppose they would.
5100. Do you know anything of the rents that are paid in Lower George-street, Mr. Davies ? I cannot
Bay I do.
5101. Do you think they have increased during the last four or five years ? I think they did during the
last four or five years, but latterly they have been coming down. There is a house next to me which was
2 guineas a week some time ago, and it is now 30s. a week, and they cannot get a tenant for it.
5102. You think rents are. decreasing? Yes.
5103. And if anybody has stated that rents are increasing in the neighbourhood, that would not be correct ?
I cannot say as to places up by Gallows-hill, and in that direction.
5104. We are speaking of George-street North ? In George- street North they are decreasing.
5105. Then if anybody states that they are increasing in George-street North, that is not correct ? No ;
it would not be, according to my experience.
5106. What other house have you had ? The " Harbour View Hotel."
5107. Did you ever keep the " Oriental" ? No ; that is another Davies.
5108. You have said that working men have frequently lost their week's wages at these gambling-houses.
Have you been a sufferer through such men owing you for refreshments as a consequence ? No ; I have
lent them money when they have gambled away their week's wages, butL have got it back again.
5 109. Do you know if it is a fact that respectable females fear going down Lower George-street, because
of their liability to insult from the Chinamen thero ? No.
5110. You have never heard of anything of the kind? No. My wife goes up and down there very
often, and I have never heard of her being insulted by any one.
[The witness then withdrew.]
Mr. William Law called and examined : —
5111. President.'] Where do you reside, Mr. Law? At No. 113, Gloucester-street. jfr. \y. LttW#
5112. Are you in business ? Yes. ^o>^— ^
5113. Where is your place of business ? No. 236, Lower George-street. 6 Oct., 1891.
5114. Have you been in business there loDg ? For some months. I am at present managing the business
of John Gee & Co.
5115. How long have you been there ? About 15 months.
5116. Do you know Mr. Forder ? Yes.
5117. Do you remember being in his company the week before last ? Yes, I think it was last Monday
week.
51 18. Where was he on the day when you met him ? He was at the business place of my employers.
5119. Was there anybody else with him when you came on the scene ? He was in conversation with my
brother, who is employed as an assistant in the same office.
5120. Was he acquainted with your brother ? No, it was the first time they had met.
5121. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Forder, regarding the Chinese gambling-houses, on that
occasion ? No, not a word.
5122. On any occasion did you have a conversation with him on that subject ? Not until last Saturday.
5123. Will you state the nature of the conversation which then took place ? It was touching the evidence
given here by my brother, and I expressed some surprise at my brother having given expression to some
words concerning a constable in the police force, as I was with him the whole of the afternoon of the same
day, and he never said a word to me about it.
5124. Did you deny it in his presence ? There was nothing for me to deny.
5125. Mr. McKillop.] What was Mr. Forder's reply to that statement of yours ? He said that my brother
did say it. 5126.
272-E
1^0 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. W. Law. slog. On the occasion when you went into the office and found your brother sitting in company with Mr.
'—-'*—" -> Forder, did you have any conversation with Mr. Forder ? No, not a word.
6 Oct., 1891. 5127. Did he state to you that your brother had told him certain things ? No.
5128. Do you know of any instance yourself where the police have received presents from any of the
Chinese ? No.
5129. Did you ever see Mr. Atwill receiving a present from a Chinaman, in the shape of money, near to
your place ? No.
5130. Did you ever tell Mr. Forder at any time, that you did see such au occurrence ? No ; I never
mentioned anything at all to Mr. Forder, until last Saturday week.
5131. Tou and Mr. Forder were on intimate terms, were you not ? Only so far as meeting one another
in the street, and saluting one another. Last Saturday week we dined and spent the evening together,
and nothing transpired more than I have said.
5132. Was Mr. Forder sober on the occasion when you saw him in company with your brother ? Tes, so
far as I know.
5133. Were you sober ? Tes. -
51-34. Did you and he leave the office together ? Tes.
5135. Tou were in his company the whole of the afternoon ? Tes, we dined together.
513G. When you parted with Mr. Forder, had he his senses about him ? Tes.
5137. Was he perfectly sober ? He knew what he was doing.
5138. Did you know what you were doing? Tes, quite.
5139. Tou have lived in the northern part of George-street a number of years, I suppose ? Tes.
5140. Have the Chinese gambling-houses been on the increase during the last four or five years ? I. am
not in a position to say.
5141. Why ? Because I have never visited them, or interested myself in them.
5142. Can you read Chinese writing ? No.
5143. If you were to see these notices appearing outside the Chinese gambling-houses, such as you see in
the photographs before you, would you know what they meant ? No ; I could not read the characters.
5144. Have you never had them explained to you ? No.
5145. And your curiosity never led you to inquire ? No.
5146. Tou know, I suppose, that gambling is carried on there? Tes. I simply know they do exist, and
I see people go in and out as I pass by.
5147. Are those you see Chinese or Europeans ? Chinese.
5148. Have you noticed any Europeans going in there? I have noticed some Europeans going in
occasionally.
5149. Have you ever noticed any riots or rows taking place in that locality? I have known of rows
there— yes.
5150. Of what character were they ? Oh, rows among seafaring men.
5151. Did they arise out of gambling transactions, do you know ? That I cannot tell you.
5152. Do you know the house kept by Pun Num — it is shown on the photograph ? Te3, 1 have seen the
place.
5153. Do you think, as a man of the world, that these people carry on a legitimate business? I am not
in a position to say.
5154. Tou must surely be in a position to say ; you go to your business there daily, and as a man of
common sense you must know whether they carry on a legitimate or not ? I have never had occasion to
ask or to visit the place.
5155. But from your own observation — I daresay you scrutinise these places from the outside ? I never
trouble myself about them.
5156. You pass them by, do you not ? Tes.
5157. And yet you do not know whether they carry on a legitimate business or not ? No.
5158. Were you not asked last Friday by a police officer whether you were summoned to appear before
the Eoyal Commission ? No.
5159. Have you not been in conversation with anybody relative to the Commission — that is, outside of
Forder and your brother ? No.
5160. Not with any member or the police force ? No.
5161. Who was it asked you about the Commission ? I was not asked.
5162. Not by anybody ? No.
-5163. Are you sure of that ? Tes, quite sure.
5164. Do you know if there are a number of houses of ill-fame, kept by Chinamen, on what they call the
Rocks ? I do not.
5165. Tou know of none ? I know they do exist, but cannot say personally, or from my own knowledge.
5166. I do not mean to say that you frequent them ; but men go up and down there ; — have you ever
seen anything particularly revolting in that connection ? No, I have seen nothing of that kind.
5167. Have you received an anonymous letter, threatening you if . you should give evidence before this
Commission ? No.
5168. Are you in favour of the existence of these gambling-dens, Mr. Law ? Decidedly not.
5169. Tou would like to see them abolished ? Tes.
5170. Does the existence in these places injure the legitimate trade in that part, to the best of your
belief? I am not in a position to say.
5171. Well, does it interfere with your trade ? No.
5172. Do you receive any benefit in any way from any of these places ? No.
5173. Do you know of any Chinese Sustentation Fund being in existence, where they stop so much from
every £ of the winnings in the gambling-dens referred to ? No.
5174. As to the Chinese that run these places, do you know any of them personally or by sight ? I only
know them by sight.
5175. Do you know Moy Ping, who keeps the place where the raid was made ? Tes.
5176. Have you had any conversation with him? No; not on the subject of the raid. I meet him
occasionally and salute him, that is all.
5177. Do you know Sun Sam Kee ? I know Sam Tin or Sun Sam Kee.
5178. Have you had any conversation with him relative to gambling ? No. 5179.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EYIDENCE. - 131
5179. Where is Sun Sam Koe now ? That is the name of the firm. There is no such person as Sun Mr. W. Mv.
bam Kee. ,-^a_— ^
5180. Who is the head of the firm ? Sam Tin. 6 Oct., iM.
5181. Is he in Sydney ? Tes.
- 5182. Do you know the firm of Sun Sam War ? I do not.
5183. Are you sure that Sam Tin is the head of the firm of Sun Sam Kee ? I would not be sure that
he is the head of it, but I know he is connected with it.
5184. Has he the same power that you have as manager of your firm ? I cannot say.
HJoii" mlG y°Ur V°™eT8 limited as manager, if so, to what extent ? ky powers are limited as manager.
5186. Ihe same as the manager of a European business ? Quite so.
5187. Is it a practice among the Chinese for the managers to have unlimited power in the conduct of
business r I should say not.
5188. Supposing the head of the firms are absent in China ? In that case they have parties here to,
represent them.
ci m ^ind thef h°ld a P°wer of attorney in tlle same way that European business is conducted ? Tes.
i 1 ™ 7tU ™ow anything of any respectable females being insulted going up and down George-
street, Mr. Law ? No ; I have never heard of it.
5191. And you say that at no time have you ever told Mr. Eorder anything about Inspector Atwill or
any other member of the police force receiving any presents or bribes ? Tes ; I am quite positive.
The only time I had anything to say to him in connection with this Commission was on Saturday week
last. J
5192. Did you know what paper he represented when you became acquainted with him ? Tes.
5193. How long ago is it since you first became acquainted with him ? It is about three years.
5194. And was it only on one occasion that you made so free with him as at this time you have told us of,
when you made yourself so agreeable ? We have generally been sociable when we have met.
5195. Did Mr. Eorder say to you in the course of conversation about this bribery, that it would be
advisable for you, as a law abiding citizen, to give the Commission the information you were possessed of,
or that it was your duty to do so ? I have already explained that no such conversation took place.
5196. I am putting my questions in my own way, and I repeat, did Mr. Eorder, on hearing from you
that such .bribes were received by the police, say to you, "Well, William, as a law-abiding citizen, I
consider it is your duty, if you know that these things are carried on, to give some evidence to the Eoyal
Commission on the subject." Did he at any time say that to you ? No.
5197. Do you know anything about opium-smoking down there ? I know that there is opium-smoking,
but I know nothing about it in that locality. I never visit these places.
5198. How many respectable Chinese are there down in that portion of the city ? I should say about
twenty :— Sun Hing Jang, King Hing Co., Sun Kum Tiy, On Chong, Boo Long, Quing Hing Chong, On
Tik and Lee, Sam War, Sam Chong, S. C. S. Dockson, Way, Kee & Co., Tin Wah & Co., Gee Ick, and
Te Sang Loong.
5199. Do you know Mr. Gouldtown ? Tes.
5200. Is he a respectable man ? I do not know him personally.
5201. Do you know where he is now ? I do not.
5202. Have you any idea where he is ? I beard that he was in Brisbane.
5203. Do you know who sent him away ? No, I do not.
5204. Mr. Quong Tart.~) Tou have given the Commission particulars of the respectable Chinese in Lower
George- street. Tou know also that there are Chinese gamblers down there do you not ? Tes.
5205. But you say that you have not been in any of them ? No.
5206. Now, I want you to endeavour to tell us what in your opinion is the best way to put down this
evil — in the first place have you any idea as to how this gambling can be carried on with so little inter-
ference ? I can only account for its being carried on to the extent it is by reason of the patronage it
receives.
5207. Tou know it is against the law ? Tes.
5208. Then, how is it, do you think, that being against the law, it is carried on to such an extent — do the
police not do their duty, or have they not power under the law to stop it ? I think the police do their
duty as far as I know
5209. Tou know that the gambling is carried on openly in the face of complaints from the residents of
that part of the city ? I do not know of any complaints.
5210. This gambling is against the law, and is still carried on openly, and the people have complained to
the Government about that, and the bad sanitary state of some of these premises down there. Now, if
the police do their duty, how is it that the gambling is not put a stop to ? I cannot answer that.
52L1. But you think all these respectable Chinese merchants that you have named would be glad to see
it stopped ? Tes.
5212. Mr. Hawthorne.] What is your idea in regard to that statement which Mr. Eorder has made, that
he saw a handful of sovereigns handed to Inspector Atwill by a Chinaman — do you think it was
imagination on Mr. Eorder's part ? I do.
5213. Tou think your brother never stated that ? Tes ; I do not think he ever said it.
5214. Were they discussing the Chinese question when you entered the room on that occasion and found
them in company together ? No ; they had been about five minutes together before I arrived.
52 L5. And they were not discussing it when you entered the room ? No.
5216. Did your brother mention to you before this about Inspector Atwill having received money or any
other present from a Chinaman ? No ; I am positive he never did.
5217. Tou do not know of your own knowledge whether Inspector Atwill, or any other member of the
police force, ever received a present of any kind, either from a Chinese merchant or any other person
in Lower George-street ? No.
5218. Tou think that Mr. Eorder, in making that statement about your brother, was labouring under some
hallucination, or, at any rate, that he was stating what was not a fact ? I should say so.
5219. I suppose you think if your brother had seen this present made to Mr. Atwill he would have
mentioned it to you sometime or other? I think he would have done so, certainly.
5220. Tou and 3 our brother are frequently together in the same office. Have you ever discussed the
appointment
182
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
6 Oct., 1891.
Mr. W. Law. appointment and work of this Commission with your brother? No ; except in a casual way exchanging
our opinions as to what the outcome of it would be. , ,
5221. And you think that in such casual conversations on the subject he would have mentioned about
this matter of Mr. Atwill, if it had taken place as stated ? I do. I may mention in regard to the state-
ment of Mr. Forder, that after being in conversation with my brother he was in company with me the
whole of the afternoon, and he never mentioned a word to me about this matter.
[The witness withdrew.]
T. M. Davis,
Esq., M.P.
6 Oct., 1891.
Mr. Felton.
7 Oct., 1891.
It is
, Mr. Davies ?
T. M. Davis, Esq., M.P., recalled and examined :—
5222. President.] "We understand that you wish to correct a portion of your evidence, Mr. Davis ?
There is only one matter, and that is with regard to the statement I made about having a drink with Mr.
Beadman, and seeing a diamond ring on his finger. I wish to retract that portion of my evidence, because
I have discovered since that Beadman is a man of fair complexion, whereas the man I had the drink with,
and who had the ring on, was a dark man.
5223. Has Beadman seen you since, or have you acted in this matter entirely on your own motion .
entirely my own action, taken in justice to the man and myself.
5224. Mr. Hawthorne.'] How did you come to discover the difference in the complexion,
Well, I was speaking to a personal friend of mine who happened to know Beadman some years ago m
Balmain, and I mentioned the circumstances of my meeting Beadman, as I thought, and having a drink
with him, and also the fact of his having had a diamond ring on his finger at the time My iriend then
said that Beadman was not in "West Sydney eighteen months ago, and asked me to describe the man i
meant. I then told him that the man I had the drink with, and who I understood was Beadman at the
time, was a man with a black moustache and small side-whiskers. I told him that I always understooa
that man was Beadman. He said : " That is not Beadman at all ; he is a man of fair complexion— not
black, or even dark in any way." , . . ,
5225. And you have not seen Constable Beadman since ? No ; but I have spoken to two other iriends
of mine, who know Beadman, and they corroborated the statement I have just given you. bo 1 thought
it was good enough for me to come and say I was wrong. I have not been down at the Police Station or
anywhere else to talk to the police since I gave evidence here.
5226. President] Perhaps you may find out something else about it, Mr. Davies, and then you can let us
know, if you will, please ? Tes ; t know the party I had the drink with— I am perfectly certain oi that.
5227. Mr. Hawthorne.] Is the person you mention, who corrected you in regard to the appearance of
Beadman, a friend of his ? No ; the party I have referred to is driving the engine in connection with
the electric light at the Town Hall here. He belongs to Balmain and knows Beadman.
5228. If you find out anything more about it, you will let .the Commission know ? Yes, with pleasure.
[The witness withdrew.]
It would be
It
WEDNESDAY, 7 OCTOBEB, 1891.
$rattttt:~
Tlie Mayor op Sydney (Mb. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
EEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Peesident.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Mr. Eelton called and examined : —
5231. Mr. McKillop.] Are you in business, Mr. Eelton? I am.
5J32. In what part of the city ? In George-street North.
5233. What is the nature of your business ? That of an ironmonger.
5234. How long have you been in business in that end of the city ? Since 18G5.
5235. Are you a partner in the firm of Pelton and Nock? I am.
5236. And you have been there for fifteen or sixteen years ? Yes ; upwards of that.
5237. Do you know the number of Chinese gambling-dens in Lower George-street now ?
difficult to know the number of them, there are so many.
5238. Do you think they have been on the increase during the last five years ? Yes ; very much so.
5239. Has the presence of this evil affected your business prejudicially to any extent, Mr. Eelton ?
has, very materially.
5240. Will you kindly inform the Commission in what way it has affected your business? It has affected
our business, because the traffic there is considerably less than it was ; there are not the same number of
people passing to and fro.
5241. And you think that the falling off in the passenger traffic of that part of George-street is due to
the existence of the large number of gambling-dens in that locality ? Decidedly so. That is the opinion
I have held for some time.
5242. Has your loss been considerable of late ? Yes ; very great, the last eighteen months or two years.
5243. Have you enlarged your establishment during the last few years, Mr. Eelton? Yes ; about six or
seven years ago.
5244. Have the rents been on the increase in that portion of the city ? Very much.
5245. And has that affected you materially ? Of course we have had to pay increased rent.
5246. What rent did you pay for your establishment about five years ago ? Our present lease, I think,
as far as I can remember, only covers a term of six or seven years.
5247. Well, what was the rent under the old lease ? I should explain that it is rather mixed up. Six or
seven years ago there was one of these gambling-dens next door to us, and we suffered great annoyance
and inconvenience in consequence; so I made up my mind that I would, if possible, get them out of it,
and lease the place myself if necessary in order to secure my own tenant. Mr. Merriman owned the
premises then, and he was anxious to get these people out. Eventually we succeeded- in doing so, and I
then leased the place myself. 5248.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 133.
5248. At an increased rate ? Yes, of course. I simply took it for the purpose of getting a respectable Mr. Felton.
tenant. " ,~^a^»— v
5249. "What was the amount of the increase in rent ? I cannot say what the Chinaman was paying before * 0ct> 1891,
, I took it.
5250. In comparision with your other shop, was the rent higher than you paid before ? No ; it was a
smaller shop, and both are included in the one lease.
5251. You are perfectly sure the rent of this place was increased when you became a tenant ? There is
no doubt of it. All the vacant shops in the street were snapped up by the Chinamen at once.
5252. Do you think the rents have increased throughout that portion of the city during the last few
years ? Yes, I think so.
5253. If any one stated that the rents in the locality have decreased of late years would that be correct ?
No. For years past the rents have been increasing in that locality, and I attribute it to the cause I
have stated.
5254. "Were you offered a bonus to vacate your premises at any time ? No.
5255. Do you know of anyone who was offered a bonus to vacate their premises in favour of Chinese ?
No ; I do not remember anything of the kind.
5256. Have you been residing in Lower George-street of late years? I do not live there. I have
another business at North Shore now, and I live there. I come over every week, sometimes three times
a week.
5257. I suppose you have a pretty good knowledge of the gambling that is carried on there? It is a
matter of common knowledge, I think.
5258. Have you ever known of any females being insulted while passing up and down George-street
North ? No. I am never there at night.
5259. "Well, during the day or afternoon ? I cannot say I have.
5260. Have you ever entered one of these gambling-houses, Mr. Felton ;— not to gamble, but from
curiosity? Never.
5261. Have you remarked people going in and out of these places ? Yes ; I have seen people going in
and out frequently.
5262. Those you saw, I suppose, would be mostly of the working class ? Yes ; mostly of the working
class, and clerks.
5263. Have you ever seen policemen enter these gambling-dens ? No ; I cannot say I have.
5264. Do you know anything, to your own knowledge, with regard to a policeman having been offered or
having received a bribe of any kind ? Not the slightest of my own knowledge.
5265. What is your opinion with regard to this gambling evil ; — do you not think it should have been
put a stop to long ago ? Certainly I do.
5266. Have you ever noticed outside these gambling-houses white paper notices in Chinese characters ?
Yes.
5267. Do you know what those notices signify ? No ; I have no knowledge of the Chinese language. I
tried to learn it some years ago, but did not succeed very well.
5268. And you think if the law had been put in motion down there the gambling could have been
suppressed ? I think it could have been, certainly.
5269. Do you think if the same amount of gambling had been carried on by Europeans in the same open
manner, the police would have stepped in long ago ? Yes ; I should think it was palpable to any one.
5270. You think there has been neglect on somebody's part ? Yes ; no doubt.
5271. Mr. Abigail.'] You know that gambling is carried on in these places even now during the day and
night ? Not personally, as I have not been inside to see.
5272. You say that you have seen people going in and out of the houses in question ; — what do you infer
from that ? Well, as they are reputed to be gambling-houses, and as they do not appear to carry on any
other business, the only inference is that the people go in to gamble.
5273. The public passing up and down can see evidence of the fact that they are gambling-shops ? Yes ;
from the general outside appearance.
5274. The police, for example, cannot avoid knowing what is carried on there ? Of course not. Every
one knows : the police and everybody else down there. The only question is whether the police can do
anything. Certainly everyone knows.
5275. Supposing that Europeans engaged a number of shops— say twenty or thirty — in Lower George-
street, and stuck up notices- "Gambling carried on here day and night," do you think the police would
pass up and down day after day, and take no proceedings against them ? They would be exceedingly lax
in their duty if they did so.
5276. Then the inference is that they have neglected their duty, or that they have been paid to pass by
these places — in other words, to wink at the breach of the law, one or the other ? I should be very sorry
to say anything about their being paid to avoid doing their duty.
5277. Then you must have come to the other conclusion, that they have neglected their duty ? _ I have
always been told that the police cannot interfere with the Chinese gamblers in consequence of their game
not coming under the Act.
5278. Who told you that — any member of the force ? I have heard it from members of the police force
at different times.
5279. The police have told you that this game— fan- tan— is not contrary to the law ? That they cannot
interfere in consequence of the game not coming under the Act— I do not know the name of the Act
exactly. That is the reason they have given me for not being able to interfere with them.
5280. Can you tell us the name of the policeman, or any officer, who made that statement to you ? I
cannot. I am now speaking of what was told me five or six or seven years ago.
5281. But some member of the force told you that ? Yes ; several of them.
5282. Do you know Inspector Atwill, Mr. Felton ? Yes.
5283. Do you know him intimately? I know him very well. I speak to him every time I meet him.
.5281. Do you know how long/Mr. Atwill has been in that division? I cannot say — I remember him
there years ago.
5285. At all events, he has been there a number of years ? Yes. y
5286. Is he a man of means, do you know? J do not know anything of his private affairs. I know him
simply as the inspector of that division, 5287t
Iif4 CHINESE OAMBlING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
'Mr. Fclton. 5287. In your opinion, is he zealous and efficient in the discharge of his official duties? Yes ; so far as I
. .z^-^-^^ know he is an efficient officer.
7 Oct., 1891. 5288. Have you ever heard anything as to Inspector Atwill receiving presents from Chinamen of
furniture or anything else ? I have heard it mentioned, but I know nothing about it of my own know-
ledge. Therefore 1 should be very sorry to say anything about it.
5289. Have you had any conversation with any member of the police force recently ? No ; not for a
long time past.
5290. Do you know Sergeant Higgins ? Yes ; he has been there for a number of years also. _
5291. Have you ever heard Sergeant- Higgins say anything about Lower George-street being the best
beat in the city ? No ; I have never spoken to him on the subject.
5292. Have you heard any policeman make a statement of that kind ? No.
5293. Do you know anything about the immorality carried on in that quarter ? No. As I have said, I
am not there at night. " I come over about 2 o'clock, stay for two or tbree hours, and go back again.
5294. Are there any Chinamen on the North Shore ? Very few.
5295. They have not started any gambling-dens there ? No.
5295|. Mr. Quony Tart.] Do you know Goulburn-street and Wexford-street, Mr. Felton ? No ; I know
nothing about those places.
5296. Can you tell me the number of gambling-houses in Lower George-street? No ; I cannot give you
the number.
5297. Do you know which is the biggest of them ? No ; I do not kuow their names.
5298. None at all ? No. Some years ago I was pretty intimately acquainted with the more respectable
section of the Chinese, but not lately.
5299. Have you any knowledge of the opium-smoking carried on in these gambling-houses ? No ; I
cannot say anything about that, as I have never visited them.
5300. Mr. Hawthorne.] You. say you have been twenty-six years in your present premises in Lower
George-street? Since 1865.
5301. What rent did you pay when you started there? I had only the one shop at that time.
5302. "What rent did you pay then ? I think it was £2 10s. per week.
5303. Have you paid the same rent for the shop ever since ? No ; it has gone on increasing.
5304. "What rent did you pay ten years ago ? About £3 a week.
5305. "What are you paying now ? About £6 a week for the one.
5306. You are giving £6 a week for the premises now ? No ; about £41 a month for the double shop.
5307. But what rent do you pay for the first one ? I cannot say that. "We hold the two places under
one lease now, and pay £41 3s. 4d. a month for the two.
5308. You think, if the Chinamen had not located themselves in that particular part of the city where
your business is centered, that the rents would not have increased to the same extent ? I am sure of it.
5309. And your business has been injured besides ? Yes.
5310. What frontage have you to your premises ? About 30 feet, I think.
5311. How do the rents in your immediate neighbourhood compare with the rents on the southern side
of Bridge-street, where there are no Chinese residents — do you think they are lower ? The rents are
much higher further up the town.
5312. There are no Chinese this side of Bridge-street to interfere with the rentals ? Certainly not.
5313. Then does it not seem anomalous to say that the presence of the Chinese has caused the rents to
go up on one side of Bridge-street, and yet they are very much lower there than they are on the other
side of Bridge-street, where there are no Chinese ? What I said was, that the rents get higher as you go
further up George-street; and in my opinion, if the people on this side of Bridge-street were subject to
the same annoyance from the presence of the Chinese as we are, very possibly the rents would be much
higher than they are at the present time.
5314. Is it not a fact that there are substantial looking shops in Lower George-street which have been to
let for months ? I think there are two or three shops almost immediately opposite our place that have
been to let for some time. I do not know whether the landlord would let them to Chinamen, but at any
rate they are empty.
5315. Does not the fact of their being empty seem to suggest that there is no great demand for houses
in that locality? It all depends upon circumstances. For instance, I do not know but what the present
agitation may have something to do with it. It is only a matter of opinion.
531G. Is it not a fact that before any agitation of this kind was started Mr. Beale had several shops
which were unoccupied for six months, because he would not let them during that time to Chinamen ? I
am rot aware of it.
5317. Do you think, if the Chinese, and with them the gambling evil were removed from Lower George-
street, the rents in that locality would be lower than they are at the present time ? I certainly think so,
for a time, until that end of the town had time to recover itself.
5318. Do you not think that the altered condition of things in Lower George-street has been largely due
to the European population having removed from that quarter as a place of residence ? There may have
been something in that certainly, but if they did shift I should think it was in consequence of the
objectionable class of neighbours.
5319. You have lately started a branch store at North Shore, I understand ? I have had a store there
for a number of years.
5320. Did you do that in consequence of your customers shifting from Lower George-street to North
Shore ? No ; that was not my reason.
5321. The population has largely increased on the North Shore, and I suppose a great number of the
residents there who used to deal at plac'es in George-street would now trade with the shops at North
Shore ; — is that not the case ? Not so far as I am concerned ; that is, it did not influence me. I cannot
remember anyone who lived in Lower George-street having gone to North Shore.
5322. During your long residence in Lower George-street did you know anything definite as to the police
having received bribes or presents of any kind from the Chinese residents there ? No ; I never heard
anything of that kind of a definite character. *
5323. Do you think there is any truth in the statements which have been made with respect to the police
having been bribed ? I cannot say at all. I have no reason, from my own knowledge, to think so. I
have heard it said, but I should be very sorry to say that I know of it. 5324.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
5324. Have you, in company, ever met a person who h as said that he gave a present to -the police ; or have
you ever met with a policeman who has admitted having received one ? No ; that is hardly likely.
5325. You think the statement is exaggerated, if not untrue ? I would not say, one way or the other.
5326. "Were you surprised at the statements made by members of the deputation to the Premier in this
connection ? I cannot say that I was. I was not surprised at it, because I had heard something of it.
5327. "Would you be surprised to learn that your pari ner had stated that the police had been receiving
bribes ? No ; he has told me so frequently.
5328. Do you think your partner is in a more likely position to receive information of that kind than
yourself ? Most decidedly, because he is there every hour of the day, and I am there so seldom.
5329. You think Mr. Nock has had more opportunities of mixing up with these gambling-dens than
yourself ? He has more opportunities of knowing what is going on in the neighbourhood, but I should
be very sorry to hear' that he was mixed up with them in any way. Ho is certainly in a position to hear
more about it.
5330. Has your partner ever said- anything to you on this subject to lead you to believe that the state-
ments as to bribery were founded on fact, or on idle gossip, passing from one to another ? I should be
sorry to suppose that he would be guilty of idle gossip.
5331. Supposing your partner had said to you that he had heard that the police had received a bribe,
you would naturally ask if he had received hi? information from an authentic source ;— you know very
well that customers will gossip sometimes when they go into a shop, and they might say, " I have heard
that one of the police received a gold watch, or a ring," or something of the kind ; — that is what I call
idle gossip, and now I want you to tell me if your partner ever said anything to you, or told you anything
to lead you to believe that the statements as to bribery were founded on fact ? I never heard anything
of the kind.
5332. But you say Mr. Nock has often told you that the police received bribes ? He has told me that
he had good reason to believe such was the case.
5333. That they had received bribes ? Yes.
5334. "From your knowledge of Mr. Nock, as a sensible business man, do you think when he made the
statement that he was speaking from some knowledge, and speaking the truth ? Yes, certainly.
5335. Then you must really believe that the police have, received bribes ? I believe that he was speaking
the truth, and that he had reason to believe so.
5336. Then you believe the police received bribes ? I believe his statement was true, because he would
not say so unless he had reason to believe it was true.
5337. And you think he was in possession of information to warrant him in making that statement ? Yes ;
but what the facts were I cannot say.
5338. Mr. Abigail!] Do you believe the presence of the Chinese, as they exist in Lower G-eorge-street, is
prejudicial to the social and moral condition of the people iu the district ? I certainly do, sir.
[The witness withdrew.]
135
c c i
Mr. Feltttji. ,
7 Oct., 1891.
Robert Lee Kum c&lled and examined : —
5339. Mr. Abigail.] "Where do you live ? I have lived at Gundagai and Tumut ; I have two places. K- Lee Kmn
534Q. Do you carry on business there ? I grow tobacco and run a garden. /tTT'^irqi
5341. How long have you been at Gundagai ? About four years. ' '
5342. Do you employ men to work for you ? Yes ; I employ men to work in the garden.
5343. How many men do you employ? In the summer-time about three generally; in the winter-
time none.
5844. Before you lived at Gundagai where did you live? I lived at Hay and Hillston. I was a
contractor for scrubbing.
5345. How long ago is it since you resided in Sydney ? About twelve years ago.
5346. "When you were in business what business did you follow ? I was a storekeeper.
5347. And you had a pretty good knowledge of the Chinese gambling-houses I suppose? I know some-
thing of them.
53481 Have you visited any number of them ? Oh, yes ; I came down last November at the request of
some merchants to try and 'stop the gambling. I got two telegrams about it. [Telegrams produced.]
5349. This telegram is addressed to Wong Lee Kum and signed Jack Houng Ying, 64, Wexford-street,
Sydney ? Yes.
[Telegram read, as follows: "Come down at once. Particular business. No money for fare.
Answer at once."]
5350. "What did that refer to ;— did you understand what it meant at the time ? Not till I came down, and
then they told me it was about the gambling.
5351. "Whom did you see when you came down to Sydney ? I saw nine or ten Chinamen altogether.'
5352. Where did you see them ? I called at 64, Wexford-street.
5353. Then you saw nine or ten Chinamen there;— and what took place at the meeting? They
asked me if I would go to Inspector Mackay and set the law in motion against the Chinese gamblers-
take out warrants against them.
5354. Did they indicate any particular places? Yes ; 48, Campbell-street, and 52, Goulburn-street.
5355. And what did you say ? I said at first, " No ; " that I was too busy, as that was the time or season
to put the plants in the ground, and that I did not think I had time to do it. They said they would pay
me for it. I said I did not care for money, but I said I would be glad to do it as a public duty.
5356. Well, what was done then? After that I went to Inspector Mackay, and he said, " Oh, yes ; I
know those places ; they carry on gambling there."
5357. He told you that he knew they were in the habit of gambling in those places ? Yes. He did not
seem to take much interest in what I said, so I went to the Inspector-General of Police.
5358. You then went to the Inspector- General of Police ;— what took place there ? I told him what
I had to say, and that I had been to Inspector Mackay. The Inspector-General wrote a few words for
me to the Superintendent of Police, and spoke to him through the telephone, making arrangements for
me to see him.
5359. And did you see the Superintendent ? Yes. 5360.
1^6 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
R. J>e Kum. 5360. "What took place then ? The Superintendent wrote a few words on a piece of paper and told me
'— ■ ■*— ""*> to take it to Inspector Mackay. I took the paper to the Superintendent, who wrote something on the
7 Oct., 1891. other si(le of itj ancl sent me t0 inSpector Mackay. Inspector Mackay said, " Very well, but I hare not
time just now," or for a few days, or something to that effect.
5361. Do you know what was on the paper you delivered to Mr. Mackay ? It was just a few words
saying I wanted to see him, I think.
5362. "Was it giving instructions to take proceedings against the gamblers ? Yes ; to take steps to
prosecute them. After waiting a few days I called again, and he said he would go with me to have a look
into it ; but he did not do so. Therefore, I went to the Inspector-General again, and said to him, " I do
not think Inspector Mackay takes much notice of what I say, and I do not think he will go with me on
this business." The Inspector- G-eneral then telephoned to the Superintendent again.
5363. That was the second time you went to the Inspector- General ? Yes.
5364. Then as a result of your action and all this correspondence a prosecution arose I suppose ;— did they
lay any information against any one ? Not then. I gave information th'at gambling was carried on in
those places, and about the opium smoking, and the way they blocked up the footpath. Inspector
Mackay said to me, " I know all about it, but when we take them in charge they get off again." Then I
went to the Inspector- General for the third time, and I met Detective "West there. The Inspector-
General said, " "Won't Mr. Mackay do that for you ? " No ; I said he talks about it, that is all. Then
Detective "West said to wait a few days till the Quarter Sessions were over, and he would take the
matter up.
5365. Did he do so ? Yes ; he visited half a dozen places with me.
5366. Name some of the places ? We visited 52, Goulburn-street, and 48, Campbell-street.
5367. You visited 52, Goulburn-street first ? Yes.
5368. When you visited that place in company with West, were they gambling? Yes ; in a small frjnt
room upstairs.
5369. Did Detective West see it going on ? Yes.
5370. Did they stop gambling when you went in ? No ; the first time I went in they took no notice.
After waiting a few days we went in again.
5371. You made more than one inspection? Yes ; we were several days going round.
5372. After visiting 52, Goulburn-street, where did you go ? I forget the number of the shop — it is next
to a cookshop.
5373. Well, when you went into this second place were they gambling ? Yes ; there was fan-tan and the
lottery tickets too. There were three doors to this place on the ground floor, one in front, and two after
others, which lead into a room where Europeans were playing at a table. No Chinamen were allowed
to play there. Upstairs there were some Chinamen and Englishmen with the lottery tickets.
5374. Well, after visiting these two places where did you go next ? The next night I went in again ;
but as soon as I went in the Europeans went out.
5375. They evidently knew then that you were there for the purpose of informing against them ? Yes,
5376. Then as a result of these visitations with Detective West, were these gamblers brought before the
Police Court ? We got a warrant out for 48, Campbell-street.
5377. Against how many did you take proceedings ? Three Chinamen.
5378. What were their names ? Ah Poy, Ching Ah long, and King Ting.
5379. What were they charged with, playing fan-tan, or the lottery ? The lcttery, pak-ah-pu. [Lottery
ticket 'produced?^
5380. You bought the ticket ? Yes ; Mr. West gave me Is. to buy a ticket.
5381. Well, what was the result of those proceedings ? They were committed for trial.
5382. Did you say on that occasion that the bank for carrying on this affair wes in Goulburn-street ? Yes.
5383. And that the had several hundred pounds to their credit ? I did not know that.
5384. You did not hear of any bank having any money for carrying on this gambling ? No.
5385. Are we to understand that you are strongly opposed to gambling? Yes. When I £ave ihe
information to Mr. Muckay, he said, "There is no money for you," and I said, "No, I do not come for
money, for the sake of a few pounds, but to prevent others losing their money."
5386. Your action was of a purely benovelent character — you wanted to benefit other people ? Yes 5 I
told him if there was any money coming to me they could give it to the hospital.
5387. You say these men were committed for trial ? Yes.
5388. You had a conversation with a representative of one of the papers on the subject of those Chinese
kept places, did you not ? What paper do you mean ?
5389. The Evening News ? Oh, yes.
5390. And you stated how many Chinese houses there were; — do you know how many pak-ah-pu houses
there are in Sydney ? There were eighty-three when I counted them.
5391. And how many fan-tan or other gambling-houses ? I have got a list of them here. Twenty-two
in Wexford-street ; thirteen in Campbell-street ; twenty-five in Goulburn-street ; thirty-four in Lower
George-street ; nine in Castlereagh-street ; nineteen in Waterloo ; six in Pitt-street ; and five in Eobinson's
Lane.
5392. How did you become aware of the fact that all these places were gambling-houses ? I had been
inside to look for myself.
5393. About how many Chinese do you think are engaged in this gambling— living on it ? That ia hard
to say. You see some of them dealing in the daytime and gambling at night.
5394. I refer more particularly to those connected with the gambling-houses ? I should say about 100.
But if you counted all the gamblers there would be more like 600, because they deal in the daytime,
hawking vegetables and fancy goods.
5395. Were these men you have mentioned brought up for trial afterwards for playing pak-ah-pu ? Yes;
and they were convicted and fined £0 each.
5396- D.id y°"r countrymen take any action against you for that ? They tried to frighten me. Some of
them said, "We will get a few men to hammer him and kill him, and throw him in the water."
5397. You were not influenced in this matter by any thought of pecuniary gain to yourself? No ;
5398. You were not doing it out of spite, either— you had no grudge to satisfy, on account of not being
paid a lottery ticket, or anything of that kind, for instance ? No ; certainly not. 5399.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 137
5399-400. You were actuated by purely philanthropic or benevolent motives ? Tes. E- Lee Kum.
5401. "What was the meaning of the telegram which you received from 64, Wexford-street — I mean that / — *
part of it which says, " No money for fare— answer at once ?" That was to say if I had no money for 7 Oot» 1891-
travelling expenses to answer at once.
5402. Did you pay your own travelling expenses ? Tes.
5403. Did you get no money at all from these persons who sent for you ? I got about 30s. back again.
).!Pellt3 own money a]1 tQe time ; but I got sick, and lost mv voice for six months.
o404. Can you mention the names of the persons who sent you the telegram ? It was Houng Ting, a
storekeeper. He said he lost a lot of money in gambling, and he sent for me to stop the gambling,
because it he did not stop it he would never go to China anv more
5405. What is the next name ? Sheak Tin.
5406. "Where does he live ? At 54, Wexford-street.
5407. Did he lose a lot of money ? Tes ; a lot.
™w **Jt he l0?ked t0J°™aS a saTiour> t0 st°P *e gambling, and remove the temptation from him.
W hat is the next name ? There are no more— only the two. I think there were more than these in it,
but he would not tell me. They were merchants in Lower George-street, and they gave money to help
to stop the gambling, but did not want their names mentioned.
5t^ ^hy Waf that— were the7 afraid ? They were afraid the gamblers would go against them.
5410. Do you know of the existence of any secret societies of your countrymen here, established for
punishing persons who give evidence against them ? Oh, yes. That is frightful.
5411. Do you know the names of any secret societies of that kind ? There are two or three. They will
blow about what they wiU do, and get money to carry out the idea, but do not really do it. They had a
council meeting not long ago, and wanted me to go to it.
5412. Did you get a notice ? No.
5413. Who asked you to go ? Two or three asked me.
5414. Give us the names ? Pow Chee was the leader of the meeting.
5415. Where does he live ? I do not know where he lives now.
5416. Did he ask you to go to the meeting ? No. He sent out the names for all the Chinamen to go
down to Sun Sam War's place, in Lower George-street.
5417. Did he say what they were to do there ? He said he had read in some paper about the Government
trying to stop the gambling, and the meeting was called to collect a few hundred pounds to go to law
with the Government'; but 1 think it is very likely he wanted to get a few hundred pounds to put in his
own pocket.
5418. Have you seen any policemen in any of these places while gambling has been going on, in any
part of the city or suburbs ? I have seen them often in the gambling-houses, and mostly they do not
take much notice.
5419. Have you seen them inside ? Tes.
5420. And was the gambling going on while they were inside ? No.
5421. Have you ever heard as a reason why the police do not take much notice of the gambling-houses
that they are paid by the keepers of these places not to trouble them ? No ; I do not know that. It
would be hard to tell.
5422. Have you played at fan-tan yourself ? Tes ; some years ago.
5423. Before you took such a noble stand against it, and were visiting these places, did you ever win
any money at the game ? Sometimes I won, but mostly lost.
5424. Whenever you won how much was taken out of the shilling ? One penny out of each shilling.
5425. What was that penny kept back for ? For the banker's expenses.
5426. When you were playing in these places did you ever see a scramble for the money on the table ?
Sometimes, when they put their money and lose, they will take it back again and clear out.
5427. Where did you gamble when you indulged in the evil practice ? At Han Kee's, in Lower George-
street.
5428. Is he there now ? Tes.
5429. And carries on a gambling-house there ? Tes. I lost about £200 in three months.
5430. Did you ever see any large sums of money lost at these places ? Tes. I saw a fellow lose £3,000
in one night. He turned insolvent, owing £6,000.
5431. He was very likely brought to bankruptcy by gambling ? Very likely.
5432. Did you ever know of any of your countrymen committing suicide in consequence of having
gambling losses ?. I know of a case where a man lost a lot of money on a steamer, and committed suicide.
5433. Tou are a Christian now ? Tes. I did belong to the Wesleyan Church, and now belong to the
Salvation Army.
5434. Are you married ? No. I have a wife in China.
5435. Have you not a woman living with you here now ? Tes.
5436. You are not living in or about Sydney at the present time ? No ; I am living at Gundagai, carrying
on a garden there.
5437. What is the extent of your garden ? Five acres.
5438. How long have you been in Sydney this trip ? I have been in Sydney three months now.
5439. How have you been living during those three months ? I have some money in the bank, and then
I have a garden, and sell the tobacco.
5440. Tou do not gamble now ? No ; I have given up gambling about nine years.
5441. Did you ever carry on a large business in Sydney? Tes. I went insolvent myself for £3,500.
5442. What led to your misfortune— did you lose a large sum in gambling? No. It was through bad
times. The trade was very much cut up, and everything was selling at a loss.
5443. How long is it since you joined the Salvation Army ? It is four years.
5144. Do you speak of the evils of gambling sometimes at the Army meetings? Tes. I have spoken
up at Mudgee about four months ago.
5443. Have you often gone round amongst your own countrymen in Sydney and told them of the evils of
these things, and taught them your own religion, and tried to bring them round to it ? I have told
them often.
5446. Have they ever run after you and threatened you ? Well, mostly when you tell them about it
thev kick your arse. 5417.
J 272— S
138 CHINESE GAMBLING- COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
E. Lee Kum. 541.7. They evidently do not give you credit for good motives ;— do they think you are sincere ? They
' — *-* — s do not believe in the Christian religion.
7 Oct., 1891. 541S Take these photographs in your hand;— do you know what those white paper notices announce?
Tes, " Fan tan carried on every day and night ;" also, " Fan-tan up stairs" too.
5449. "What is the name over the door ? Pun 2\"um.
5450. "What is the name of the place next to it ? Way Kee.
5151. Is there any gambling carried on there ? I do not know.
5452. Is there any ticket on his place ? No.
5453. "What is the next place ? Han Kee, commission agent.
5454. Is there any ticket there ? No.
5455. Have you noticed whether similar notices to these are stuck up on a number of places in Lower
George-street, Wrexford- street, G-oulburn-street, and Campbell-street ? Tes, I noticed plenty stuck out-
side the doors.
5456. Do you know anything about women frequenting some of the houses in "Wexford-street ? I did
not trouble myself about the women.
5457. Have you seen them there ? Oh, yes ; I have often seen them playing in the street with the
Chinamen, and knocking them down, and one thing and another.
5458. Do they smoke opium ? Yes, some of them.
5459. Do you smoke opium ? No.
5460. Tou regard it as a bad habit ? Tes, very bad.
5461. Tou are thoroughly sincere about your opposition to gambling: — you think it ought to be sup-
pressed ? Tes, certainly.
5462. Tou think it injures or demoralises the people of the district where it is carried on? Tes.
5463. Mr, Hawthorne.'] How long is it since you commenced working your garden at G-undagai ? Over
four years. I had a contract in Narrandera for some years.
5464. Have you given up the garden now ? No, I still carry it on.
5465. "When you were contracting who did you get to look after your garden ? I finished the contract
before I took up the garden.
5466. How long have you had your garden ? Four years.
5467. Where is your wife ? In China.
5468. Mr. McKillop.~] Tou have said, I think, that you live with a woman here ? Tes.
5469. And you are a member of the Salvation Army ? Tes.
5470. As a Salvationist, do you think it right to be living with a woman as you are ? I am not in the
Army now.
5471. How long is it since you left the Army ? About eleven months.
5472. Did they expel you, or did you leave of your own accord ? I left. I had a bad throat, and lost
my voice.
5473. But you did not leave the Army because you had a bad throat ? I suppose I am going to marry
the woman.
5474. How long has she been living with you ? Three months.
5475. Is she in the family-way now ? No.
5476. Will you swear that? Tes.
5477. Was this woman also in the Salvation Army ? No.
5478. Did you meet her at the Salvation Army ? Tes.
5479. Was that were you first met her ? No.-
5480. Where did you first meet her ? I met her in the street first.
5481. Did you ask her to go and live with you right away ? No ; she kept company with me.
5482. Did you tell her you had a wife in China? Tes.
5483. And have you promised to marry her now ? Tes.
5484. Have you ever received any money for giving information about these Chinese gambling-houses.?
No.
5485. Never ? No ; never one penny.
5486. Tour only object was a good one — to try and benefit your countrymen ? Tes.
5487. Is it not the case that you lost a lot of money at gambling ? Tes.
5488. And is that not the reason you are opposed to it? Tes, that is the reason.
5489. Tou won a lot of money, and they would not pay you ? No, not me.
5490. Tou won some money at a lottery, did you not ? No.
5491. Did not you win some money at one time playing fan-tan, and they would not pay you ? No,
not me.
5492. Tou always got your money when you won ? Tes.
5493. How long is it since you played fan-tan — recollect you are on your oath, we have it all taken down
here, and I want you to speak the truth; — how long is it since you played the game ? I gave it up four
weeks ago.
5494. Tou had a place of your own ? No ; I had a share in it.
5495. How long did you keep it on? For four weeks.
5490. That is since you left the Salvation Army ? Tes.
5497. Did they not turn you out of the Salvation Army ? No.
5498. Did they not find out that you were a hypocrite, and so turned you out ? No ; I did not go to the
meetings lately.
5499- Did you wear the uniform — a red shirt ? Tes ; some time ago I did.
5500. Were you a sergeant ? No.
5501. An ordinary soldier ? Tes ; an ordinary soldier.
5502. Did you speak in the barracks here ? Tes.
5503. And at G-undagai ? Tes ; I led the meeting at Gundagai ; also at Wagga Wagga, Junee, and
Narrandera.
5504. What was the reason of your leaving the Salvation Army; — did your countrymen inform the Army
that you had a gambling-house ? No ; it was after I left the Army that I had the share in the gambling-
house.
5505.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EYIDENCE.
139
5505. Did you not leave the Army because you wanted to go back to gambling again ? No ; I did not. R- Lee Eum.
5506. Now, if gambling is bad, and you say you came down from the country to try and suppress it, how r~^->*-^~~s
was it that you went back to gambling four or five weeks ago ? That was a syndicate, who had the ^ 0ct-> 1891#
Campbell-street place. I had a share, and lost 35s. over it.
5507. You admit that since you left the Salvation Army you kept a fan-tan establishment with your
countrymen ? No ; I had a share.
5508. How many were in it ? Thirteen.
5509. It was a company? Tes.
5510. And you were one of the thirteen ? Tes.
5511. Can you give us the names of the other twelve members ? No ; I never went among them much.
5512. Tou could not have a share in the business without knowing the names of your partner, come ? I
can give you the name of the boss. It is Ah Bye, 46, Campbell-street.
5513. Is he there now ? No ; he has gone home to China.
5514. How long is it since he left ? About three weeks ago— the Saturday before last.
5515. Did he make a lot of money by gambling ? I suppose so.
5516. Did he gamble fan-tan ? Tes.
5517. He was the boss of the place in which you had an interest ? Tes.
5518. Can you not give the names of some of the others ? No.
5519. What was your share during the month you were there ? In one month I lost 35s., and then I
gave it up.
5520. How much did you make ? Nothing ; I lost 35s. during the month.
5521. And what have you been doing since you gave up the gambling ? I have been doing nothing.
5522. Where are you living now ? I live in Swan- street.
5523. With the woman you are going to make your wife ? Tes.
5524. I suppose it must cost you about £3 a week to live ? Oh, no.
5525. What rent do you pay ? About 4s. a week. There are four other men living in the house
besides me.
5526. How many rooms have you got for the 4s. a week ? One room, with a kitchen which is used by the
others also.
5527. Are the other men married, and do they have their wives there ? There is one single man, a Scotch-
man ; the other men have women with them.
5528. Now, how long is it since you have been in a gambling-house ? I have never been in one since I
gave it up.
5529. How long, I asked you ? One month.
5530. Exactly one month ? A month, more or less.
5531. Have you not been in a gambling-place during the last fortnight ? No.
5532. Tou have not been inside one of your countrymen's places ? Well ; I have gone in.
5533. Now, be very careful, we have got a lot of evidence here. Have you not been into any of these
places during the last fortnight to play fan-tan ? I have been in plenty of times ; but not to play fan-tan.
5534. Have you not put some money on the table ? No.
5535. What were you doing in the place you went to ? I went to see one of my countrymen who asked
me to give up gambling, and go into a store with him as a partner ; and I went to Newcastle last Friday
to try to get a shop there. I also tried Woolloomooloo.
5536. Did you not go into the houses of your countrymen at Newcastle ? Certainly, I went in there.
5537. Were they playing fan-tan ? Tes.
5538. Well you have been a tolerably useful witness to the Commission. We have got a certain amount
of information out of you, and to a large extent, I believe you have told the truth ? I have told you all
the truth. I have told you all about myself. I need not have told you.
5539. Now how many places are there in Newcastle engaged in gambling — just think ? There are only
four fan-tan places.
5540. Are you sure there are not more than that ? I won't swear that.
5541. I suppose you had not a chance of going round much ? Oh yes ; it is easy going round.
5542. Did they know you when you went among them ? Oh yes. They asked me what I came there for,
and I said to play fan-tan.
5543. Did they ask you if you had left the Salvation Army ? No.
5544. Did they know that you had left the Army ? Tes.
5545. Did they seem frightened of you when you went amongst them ? Well, they did think I had come
seeking information — that the Commission sent me there.
5546. They thought you had come there to see whether they were gambling ? Tes.
5547. Did you have a chat with your countrymen about the Commission ? We spoke of it. They all
know about it.
5548. What did they say about it ? They asked if I thought the gambling was going to be stopped, and
I said I did not know, but it might.
5549. What did they say to that ? I think they said you cannot stop it. They say the Englishmen play
very heavy, and they cannot stop the Chinese.
5550. That is the opinion up at Newcastle ? Tes.
5551. Do you say you never played a single game there ? No ; not one.
5552. Mr. Quong TartJ] Do you know the largest gambling-place in Sydney ? Quong Lee, storekeeper,
358, Pitt-street, is one ; he carries on largely in lottery-tickets. They carry on a large business, and get
all their money through gambling.
5553. What is Quong Lee doing now? He has a gambling-shop in G-oulburn-street yet.
5554. Has he made a lot of money ? Tes.
5555. Has he made more money than anyone else, do you think ? Tes. I have heard a Chinaman say
he presented £300 to the police officers in Sydney, and that is how he has carried on so well.
5556. What Chinaman said that ? All the Chinamen say it — it is common talk among them.
5557. Can you call to mind any Chinaman who told you that ? I cannot. But that is the fact. They
say you cannot find them out till just before Christmas-time comes ; then you must watch about the
places where the policemen live> and you will surely find something there.
5558.'
140 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
R. Lee Kum. 5553. You were told that just two or three weeks before Christmas you will find a large number of
f ~* N presents sent to the police officers each year — is that it ? Tes.
7 Oct., 1891. r)539 And do you keiieve that to be true ? Tes.
5560. I understand there was no information laid against these Chinamen you have spoken of till you
came down ? No.
5561. Is that what your countrymen sent to you for? Tes.
5562. Do you think their motives were pure in the matter, or were they acting in a spirit of revenge ?
They said they won a lot of money, and these people would not pay them.
5563. So they brought you down to institute proceedings out of spite ? No ; I do not know that, but I
did not know this that I am telling you till after the men were committed for trial.
5564. So you freely admit now that you actually got these men convicted and fined £5 simply because
your countrymen won some money from them and they would not pay ; in fact they (your countrymen)
telegraphed up to you, at Gundagai, asking you to come down and act the part of informer against these
people? Tes.
5565. But now you say that at the time you were acting that part you did not know the object or the
motive that prompted your friends in the matter ? No.
5566. Tou thought it was a good and honorable motive, and afterwards you found out it was only
spite ? Tes.
5567. And you would not have given the information if you had known what your countrymen were
doing it for? No.
5568. And do you think these men were improperly dealt with ? Tes.
5569. Mr. Abigail.'] When you say these men were improperly punished, do you not know that they
were convicted of gambling, which is contrary to the law ? Well, I daresay.
5570. Do you not know that, seeing that you gave evidence against them to that effect ? Tes.
5571. Were they carrying on gambling? Tes, in 48, Campbell-street.
5572. How could they have been improperly punished when they were convicted of carrying on gambling ?
Well, anybody could know it. They were drawing the lottery tickets so many times each day.
5573. Do you mean to say that the Chinese engaged in this lottery business did not know they were acting
contrary to the law ? They said they knew all about it. That is all I know.
5574. Mr. Hawthorne.] Did you join the Salvation Army simply as a blind, to make people believe you
were good, whilst all the time you were not ? No. Because before that I gambled very heavily, and
during the four years I was in the Army I did not.
5375. During the time you were in the Army you were a better man ? Tes. I believed the Lord saved
me during the time. No one could say I was a bad man.
5576. No one could point the finger of scorn at you during four years ? No. I was mostly trying to do
good to other people.
5577. How long did you belong to the Wesleyan Church before you joined the Salvation Army ? Only
about six months.
5578. Can you read English ? A little.
5579. Do you read the Bible ? I do the best I can.
5580. Do you know the Lord's Prayer? I can say some of it. Tou will find it in the 5th chapter of St.
Luke.
5581. Who induced you to join the Salvation Army ? Only myself. I believe they do good.
5582. What age is the young woman you live with ? Twenty-four.
5583. Is she respectable ? Tes.
5584. She is not one of the lower order of women ? Certainly not.
5585. Were you keeping company with her while you were in the Army ? Tes.
5586. Were you living as man and wife then ? No.
5587. What was the reason of your leaving the Salvation Army ; — was it so that you could go and live
with this woman ? No. Because I talked and sang too much, and it hurt my throat. I still go to
the meeting every Sunday.
5588. Tou have not had a quarrel with the Salvation Army ? No, I have not.
5589. Do you intend to marry the woman you are living with now ? Tes, as soon as I go up country.
5590. -Do any of your wife's people live in Sydney ? Her sister.
5591. Are her father and mother here ? No.
5592. Where are they ? I do not know.
5593. Were they respectable people? I never inquired.
5594. Is she a steady woman ? Tes.
5595. Does not smoke opium ? Oh, no.
5596. Were you gambling last night ? No.
5597. Were you in any fan-tan place since last Thursday ? No.
[The witness withdrew.]
Moy Took called and examined : —
Moy Yook. 5598. Where do you live ? In Castlereagh-street.
/-— ■*— -^ 5599. What business do you carry on ? I keep a boarding-house for the accommodation of market
7 Oct., 1891. gardeners.
5600. Have you a fan-tan table on your premises ? No.
5601. Do the people in your place engage in opium-smoking ? No.
5602. Have you ever lived in Lower George-street ? No, I never lived down there. I have always lived
in Castlereagh-street.
5603. Are you connected with any Chinese establishment in Lower George-street ? No.
5604. Do you know Constable O'Sullivan ? No.
5605. Did you ever make a money present to a policeman ? No.
5606. Kemember you are on your oath, and we have evidence touching this matter ; — did you never make
a present to a policeman ? No, never.
5607. Do you know a Chinaman named Ah Ping ? Tes ; my brother. 5608.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 141
5608. Does your brother live in Lower George-street ? Yes.
5609. Did your brother ever tell you that he had made a present to the police ? !No.
06IO. Are yon connected with any establishment in Sydney other than the one you live in ? No.
5011. Do you derive any benefit whatever from any of these Chinese gambling establishments ? No.
5612. How many Chinamen are staying at your place ? About eighteen.
5613. "What is the size of the place? (Six rooms.
5614. Do you mean to tell me that you have never visited Lower George-street, and had a conversation
with any policeman down there ? No ; I do not know any policemen.
5615 I suppose you have an intimate knowledge of the existence of the Chinese gambling-houses in the
city ? No, I have not. b
5616. You know that gambling is carried on in a number of such places? No, I do not.
5617. Mr Abigail.'] Take these photographs, and see if you know what those paper notices mean on
the shop fronts ? I am not much of a scholar ; I cannot read them.
5618. Surely you can read Chinese ? No ; I cannot read it very well.
5619. Have you not seen papers of that description in front of a number of Chinese-kept places ? Yes ;
the gambling-houses put these up.
5620. How do you know that since you cannot read ? I know that those notices mean that the place is a
gamblmg-house.
5621. And there are a number of those places in the northern end of the city ? I have not seen many.
5622. Now, what is your feeling in the matter ;— are you willing to assist in any effort to suppress Chinese
gambling ? [To this question, and repetitions of it, the witness returned no answer.]
5623-4. Mr. Abigail.'] (To the Interpreter.) Tell him that if he does not answer we shall send him to gaol
for contempt.
Mr. Lisson.] I cannot get an answer from him — he persists in making comparisons between
Chinese and European gambling.
5625. Mr. Abigail.] (To witness.) Do you believe gambling is a good thing ? From a Chinaman's point
of view it is good.
5626. Did you ever see this gentleman (the Secretary, Mr. Blackwell) before? I do not know him.
5627. Did he not come to your place and tell you to attend the Commission ? No ; somebody did come
and bring a letter.
5628. "Who brought the letter ? A young mail who took it to a Chinaman's shop, and it was brought
to me.
5629. Where were you at the time ? I was at home. A Chinaman brought it to Castlereagh-slreet.
[Further examination postponed.]
FRIDAY, 9 OCTOBER, 1891.
§uetni:—
The Mayor oe Sydney (Me. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vtce-P resident.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QIJONG TABT, Esq.,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Eobert Lee Earn further examined : —
5630. Mr. McKillop.] How long is it since you became insolvent ? About twelve years. jj. x,ec Xam.
5631. Where were you carrying on business ? In Cambridge-street, in Sussex-street, and at Mudgee. ,-■ ^ ■- ^
5632. You had about half a dozen different stores at that time, had you not ? No, only three. 9 Oct., 1891.
5633. Did you pay all your creditors ? No ; the creditors gave me the money back again, but my partner
cleared off with the cash up the country.
5634. How much did you use at fan-tan during the time you were in business ? I did not gamble at all
then.
5635. And how long is it since you say you took to gambling ? Oh, you see I was playing a little on the
Victorian side when I was there.
5636. "And how many years ago is that ? Oh, it would be fourteen or sixteen years ago.
5637. How long is it since you were a partner in a gambling firm ? The first time was about a month ago,
in Campbell-street. That was the first time.
5638. And your profits amounted to something like £300 ? I say I lost about £1 15s.
5639. You lost that amount in the course of the entire transaction ? Yes, in about one month.
5640. You did not make any profit out of it ? No ; a dead loss.
5641. Ave you still a member of the firm ? No.
5642. How many partners were there in it? Thirteen altogether. We each had a thirteenth share.
5643. Are the whole thirteen of you in Sydney now ? I do not know.
5644. But surely you must know ? No. I did not stop at the gambling- shop. They said they would
give me a share.
5645. You were a sleeping partner then ? Yes.
5646. Used you not to go there and gamble yourself ? No ; I never gambled there myself.
5647. Is it not a fact that you have been seen gambling at that place up to very recently ? Oh, yes, I
saw that all these places were gambling.
5648. Is it not a fact that you have yourself been seen gambling in these places in Goulburn-street,
Campbell-street, and Wexford-street till very recently ? No, it is not a fact.
5649. Is the labouring portion of the Chinese community out here brought out under contract at the
charge of the wealthy Chinese merchants of Sydney? That I do not know.
5650. "Who brought you here ? I brought myself.
5651. "Who paid your passage money ? I paid it — 42 dollars.
5652. But do you know whether it is a fact that large numbers of your countrymen are brought here by
Chinese syndicates or companies to work under contracts extending over a term of years on the vegetable
gardens ? No, I do not know that. I do not know anything about that kind of business. 5653,
142 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
B. Lee Kam. 5053. Do you know if there is any gambling carried on in Botany ? Oh, yes, plenty. I was there before
r— ~*— -n Christmas — last Christmas. I went down there myself. I had often before that asked Inspector Bell
9 Oot., 1891. to come ,j0WI1 there wjth me, but he had always refused. He said to me, " Well, now leave gambling
alone."
5654. And is there a great deal of gambling going on at Botany ? Tea, the Chinamen play among them-
selves there.
5655. But do not the Europeans play there too ? No, I never saw any Europeans playing there.
5656. Are they Chinese gardeners ? Yes, a good many of them, and Chinese shop-keepers too. There
are some shops down there with lotteries belonging to Quong Lee, of 358, Pitt-street, Sydney.
5657. The shops you refer to as gambling-dens in Botany are only kept open as business places for a
" blind," I suppose ? No ; they do some legitimate business. About half their proceeds come from
gambling and half from ordinary trade ; but they have only very small stocks.
5658. And there is plenty of gambling inside ? Tes, plenty of gambling inside.
5659. T suppose they sell a package of tea once in six months ? Well, I believe they sell things every day,
but not very much.
5660. Is there any gambling over at North Shore? I was never over there. There is gambling in the
vegetable gardens. I will not swear that there is at North Shore, but there is at Botany.
5661. Tou have been in G-undagai ? Tes ; and in Hay and Narrandera.
5662. Is gambling carried on there? Oh, my ; any quantity — any amount.
5663. "Who gambles there ? Very few Europeans — mostly Chinamen.
5664. Do not the shearers go there? No; the shearers go amongst the girls — the prostitutes of the
Chinese camp — but they do not do much gambling.
5665. Mr. Hawthorne.] "Where is that ? At Narrandera, at Hay, and at Wagga Wagga.
5666. At Gundagai ? No — not at G-undagai.
5667. At Tumut ? There used to be plenty of gambling there, but the people down there have no
money now.
5668. Is there a great deal of prostitution amongst the women in the Chinese camp at Hay ? Oh, yes ;
I counted over thirty-two prostitutes in the Chinese camp at Hay.
5669. Have you ever seen any cases of leprosy in Narrandera or Hay ? No ; I saw no leprosy at either
of those places.
5670. What are the ages of these prostitutes — are there any young girls amongst them ? Their ages vary
from 18 to 35 years.
5671 . Any younger than 18 ? None younger than 18, as far as I saw. Of course there might be. I
could not swear that there were not. I could not ask them that kind of question.
5672. Mr. McKillop.] Do you know any cases in which boys have been tampered with in any of these
Chinese places in the city or the country ? No.
5673. I want you to tell the truth ? I tell the truth.
5674. Do you know of any cases in the city or the country where boys have been tampered with by the
Chinese? No ; I do not know any cases.
5675. Do you know a man named Goldtown ? Tes ; I have seen him once or twice. I saw him once
before at Gundagai.
5676. How long ago was that ? About three years ago.
5677. Where is he now ? I do not know where he is just now.
5678. What was he doing in Gundagai ? Tou know the Chinese camp at Tumut. An information was
laid against a Chinaman for selling sly grog there, and he was convicted and had to pay a fine of £30.
Then there was an appeal, and Goldtown was working up the case for the defendant. Kung Chong, a
half-caste, came to me about the matter, and I said, " Tou will never get this man off. Tou see most- of
them will be fined. Tou have all lost the case." The Chinaman said, " Send to Quong Tart or Gold-
town. He (Goldtown) is a wonderful man. He has been eight or nine years in a college in Hong Kong.
He is a very clever young chap. If they get him they will win all the cases. Send £40 down, to Quong
Tart for Goldtown to come up."
5679. And Goldtown was there for the purpose of working up the case ? Tes — for the barristers.
5680. At that time had he the reputation up there of being a respectable man ? "When I saw him in
Court I did not think he was much.
5681. What is your opinion of Mr. Goldtown now? I think he is a duffer, because he borrowed 35s.
from me, and never paid it back. He said to me, " I go up the country as an interpreter, and will pay it
back when I come to town again."
5682. Do you know if Mr. Goldtown was ever in business ? I do not know, myself. He told me that
he was a tea merchant about two years ago.
5683. Do you know whether it is a fact that he was himself an extensive gambler ? No ; I do not. I
never saw him gambling.
5684. But did you ever hear that he was ? I was told that he had lost £35 by gambling.
5685. When did they tell you that ? About two months ago.
5686. They said that Goldtown was a great gambler ? Tes — a great gambler.
5687. Do you remember this Commission going down Go ulb urn- street about six or seven weeks ago ?
No ; I was up the country, at Wilcannia, then.
5688. Have you had any conversation about the Commission with any of your countrymen in Lower
George-street since last Wednesday ? No ; I have never been down Lower George-street for about three
months.
5689. Were you talking to anyone in Goulb urn-street, or Campbell-street, or "Wexford-street last night ?
No, not last night.
5690. Were you talking to anybody down there the night before last, or at any time since you were last
before the Commission ? Well, I talked to some of my countrymen about the Commission. Some told
me to come, and others told me not to come, and threatened to kill me. He said, " Tou are giving every-
thing to the Royal Commission."
5691. Who said so ? I cannot tell you.
5692. Cannot you give us his name ? No. I want to find him out for my own satisfaction, and then I
will set the police on to him.
5693i
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 143
5693. Have you had any threatening letters from any one ? No ; but they said that they would try to E- I*e Kam.
injure me, and I said, "'if I must die, I must die." /"-» ■> v
5694. How much money have you in the bank now— £500 or £600 ? No, not so much as that. 9 0ct,> 1891 '.
5695. How much have you in the bank ? Well, what I have there is not in my own name ; it is in the
name of the woman 1 am living with.
5696. What bank is it in ? At Gundagai.
5697. What is the amount you have in the bank ? I should have to see the book.
5698. Cannot you make a rough guess for us ? No, I cannot.
5699. Do you say that it belongs to the woman with whom you are living ? Tes.
5700. The hallelujah lass ? Tes ; the woman who was in the Salvation Army
f!™' £nd y°" have™ade it over 1o her ? Tes ; because I thought I might be tempted to gamble.
5702. l)o you intend to go insolvent again ? No. A lot of people owe me money now.
5703. Have you obtained your certificate since your last insolvency ? No. I have been up the country
under contract.
5704. Is gambling carried on in Goulburn-street, Wexford-street, Campbell-street, and other places now
just the same as before the Commission was appointed ? Tes, just the same.
5705. Do Europeans gamble in the streets that I have named? No, I will not swear that Europeans go
there.
5706. Well, what do you mean by saying that gambling is going on there just the same ? Well the night
after the Commission went round I saw a few Europeans there.
5707. How did you see that, as you said you were not in Sydney ? Well, somebody told me. They said
that the Commission had been round for the purpose of stopping the gambling, and I said, " I do not care,
let them stop it."
5708. Did these people also tell you that they knew beforehand that the Commission was going round
that night? Tes, some of them said that they read it in the newspapers.
5709. Did anybody tell you that they knew that this Eoyal Commission was going round the night we
made the inspection ? Tes.
5710. They knew all about it ? Well, I read the papers myself.
5711. But I am asking you whether these people told you ? No.
5712. Did you read in any paper that the Commission had decided to go to Goulburn-street on a certain
night ? Tes. I take the Evening News myself every day.
2713. And you are sure that you saw that in the paper ? Tes, I think so. It was a long time ago.
2714. Will you tell the Commission, to the best of your knowledge, how many women and how many
Europeans generally indulge in the habit of opium-smoking in the city ? Well, I never travel on that game
much, because when I smell opium it makes me sick. I hate any man to smoke tobacco or opium.
5715. Tou hate any man who gambles too, do you not ? Tes, I do hate him. I hate myself for gambling,
because it is most of it losing and very little winning.
5716. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Did ever you live in Victoria ? Tes.
5717. How long is it since you lived in Victoria ? Tou see, at that time I was 24 years old.
5718. And how old are you now ? Thirty-seven.
5719. Then it is thirteen years ago ? Tes, since I left there. When I went there I was eighteen years
old, and at twenty-four I came over to New South Wales with my cousin to serve in a store.
5720. What part of Victoria did you live in ? In Maryborough and in Sandhurst.
5721. Is it not a fact that you were a gambler over there ? Oh, yes. There is plenty of gambling over
there, and plenty of bad women too.
5722. Did you knock about amongst the bad women as well as gamble ? Oh, yes ; I did in those days.
5723. How long did you live at Narrandera ? It is four years since I left there.
5724. How long did you live there ? I did not live in the Chinese camp at Narrandera. I was living on
a contract job in the bush.
5725. About how long ? Tou see I stopped there over three years, always living in the bush, and coming
in to town sometimes on horse-back.
5726. Do you know a countryman of yours named Ah Chong ? There are plenty of Ah Chongs. I do not
know which Ah Chong you mean.
5727. A countryman of yours at Narrandera named Ah Chong? Oh, there are two or three Ah Chongs
over there.
5728. Do you remember one of your countrymen giving you a cheque for £6 ? No.
5729. Tou never received a cheque for £6 ? No.
5730. And do not you remember having cashed it for £60 of a Jewish storekeeper at Narrandera ; you
made the cheque, which was originally made out for £6, into £60 ? Tes.
5731. How did you come to do that ? I do not know. That man gave me the cheque.
5732. And it was for £6, was it not ? No ; he gave me the whole £60.
5733. Will you swear that the cheque was not made out for £6 ? Tes.
5734. Will you swear it was £60 ? Tes ; I will swear it was £60.
5735. Were you not apprehended on one occasion, and taken before a magistrate, and committed for trial ?
No ; I was not committed for trial. They brought it in " no case."
5736. Tou were locked up for a while, were you not ? Only for one night.
573,7. On a charge of altering a cheque from £6 to £60 ? Tes.
5738. And what did they do with you ? The magistrate said that there was no case at all.
5739. As a matter of fact, did not Ah Chong clear out of Narrandera after youcashedthe cheque ? Tes ;
he cleared away.
5740. And was not that the reason the case against you broke down ? Well, I do not know. I tell you
he gave me the cheque for £60.
5741. Was it not because you had altered the amount of the cheque that Ah Chong cleared out, and is
not that the reason why the case broke down in Court? Well, Ah Chong went into the store and cashed
the cheque with me.
5742. He went in with you ? Tes.
5743. Was he a partner of yours ? No.
5744. Then why was it necessary for you and Ah Chong to go in to cash the cheque together ? I do not
know. 5745.
H'4 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
R. Lee Kam. 574.J. "Which of you was it who altered the cheque ;— you or the other man ? I do not know. I swear
' — ~~~ that I did not alter it.
9 Oct. 1891. 574(j_ "Well, did your partner alter it? He was not my partner.
57-17. "What did lie say about it ? He said that 1 altered it.
574S. And why was the case dismissed? Well, because it broke down.
5740. Was it tried before a jury ? JSo ; there was no case for a jury.
5750. That was because Ah Chong went away, was it ? Well, I do not know. Tou had better bring Ah
Chong here now and ask him.
575 L. Did you not know that Ah Chong was clearing out? No.
5752. Do you not know where he went to? No ; 1 have never seen him since.
5753. Could Ah Chong write English? Well, I think so. He came here a long time ago. He speaks
very good English.
575-1. But he could not write English as well as you? Tea; I dare say he could. Tou cannot swear
that he could not.
5755. Can you swear that he could ? Can you swear anything about it ?
575b". Were you ever charged with passing a cheque upon a Mr. Keshan that was afterwards dishonoured,
and was there not, in consequence, a warrant issued for your arrest? No, no.
5757. Now, did not some of" your friends afterwards pay Mr. Keshan £1 to settle the matter, so as to
prevent you being prosecuted — yes or no ? I want to know exactly what you mean.
5758. You drew a cheque once and gave it to Mr. Keshan, and it was dishonoured when he presented it
at the bank ? What is Mr. Keshan ?
5759. He is a publican in Foster-street? Oh no. What are you giving us? No, no, no.
5760. Now, did. not your friends settle that cheque? No, no.
5701. Will you swear it was not you who gave that cheque ? I will swear that it was not me.
5762. Did you at a later date than this give cheques to the value of £100 to tradesmen and see them all
dishonoured? When I went insolvent one cheque was dishonoured.
5763. Only one cheque ? Two or three cheques there might be.
5764. Amounting to how much? Oh, I do not know.
5765. A hundred pounds ? No, no. It was only promissory-notes that were dishonoured.
5766. Have you ever lived with any other white woman than the one you are living with now ? No.
5767. Will you swear it ? No ; never. Sometimes I slept with one, but I cleared out afterwards. This
is not gambling business though.
5768. Have you not kept women ? No ; never in my life.
5769. Have you not kept women, and allowed them to go about with other Chinamen ? No.
5770. Will you swear it ? I swear before the Holy Bible that I never did.
5771. You are living with, some people in Swan-street? Yes.
5772. Are they respectable people or common prostitutes ? They are all respectable people.
5773. Will you swear that there are no prostitutes in the house ? No ; I will not swear that they are
or that they are not.
5774. Will you not swear that they are not ? No, no. I will swear that they have never, to my knowledge,
been knocking about with people. They are poor people, but that is no reason why they should not be
respectable. You see all sorts amongst poor people, and high people too. Some people who have
women live in grand palaces, and are called Mr. So-and-so ; but if they live in a poor place they are
nobody.
5775. 1 see ; those are some of your opinions upon social life. Tell me this : have you never persuaded
any of your countrymen to visit the gambling-houses in which you have had a share ? No, no ; never.
577i;. Well if we can bring men here to prove that you did, you will be committed for perjury, you
know ? I do not care about that ; I speak the truth.
5777. Have you never persuaded any countryman of yours to go and visit any of the fan-tan places in
which you have had a share ? No, no ; never. I hate people who ask me to go into a public-house and
have a drink, and so I would not like to ask people to go and play fan-tan. It would be just the same.
577S. Now, Lee Kam, do you not think you played the part of a hypocrite when you were in the
Salvation Army ? No ; I was really good whilst I was in the Army. I felt good.
5779. Whom were you supposed to have been converted under ? Under Captain Templeton.
5780. And did you really become a changed man ? I tried to be changed.
57.^1. And did you not go with prostitutes at that time ? No.
5782. You had nothing to do with gambling? No, nothing to do with gambling either.
5783. All your gambling was done before and since you were connected with the Army ? Yes.
5754. How many times did you go and inform the police of your countrymen gambling during the
four years you were in the Salvation Army ? Well, you see, often times I have put the police on to bad
girls at the camp at Gundagai, or if 1 saw any gambling there I have .stopped the police and told them
that there was gambling every night, and that it was a shame. Then the police would swear at me, and
say, " You used to gamble before you joined the Salvation Army, and now you are trying to be good;
but I do not think you will be good very long."
5755. I see — the police thought you were a hypocrite ? No, I do not think so. I used to keep away
from bad company.
57&0. All that time you were attending the Salvation Army meetings ? Yes ; and every night, wet or dry,
I would be in the streets marching.
5787. Mr. Quong Tart.'] Mr. Bobt. Lee Kam, after listening to all your evidence, I wantyou to answer me
a few questions ? Y~es, I will, if you answer me properly.
5788. We are thoroughly investigating all the charges of gambling and immorality against the Chinese of
the city and suburbs? Yes ; you have over forty cousins gambling, too.
57b9. Now, I ask you civilly, and I want you to answer in the same way. Do you know that the
chief complaints made by the Europeans against the Chinese are about gambling and filthy houses, and
matters connected therewith, and that it is into that that we have been appointed to inquire? Yes.
5790. Now, first, tell us every particular that you have not mentioned — no matter who it concerns ; — you
say that there are over 600 Chinese gamblers in Sydney ? Yes, I believe there are — more or less.
579 1. Very well ; how many Chinese are there in Sydney altogether ? Oh, I cannot tell you howr many.
5792. Well wc want to know about how many there are — you have a good idea ? A lot are growing
vegetables. 5793.
CHINESE GAMMING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 145
5793. How many Chinese would there be in Sydney altogether, do you think ? I never counted them. R- LeeKam
5794. Do you think there are among the Chinese more gamblers, or people engaged in legitimate com- q^^TZ^
mercial pursuits ? Oh, there are more gardeners, and so on. 9 0ct" 1891,
5795. Tou said that there were over 600 gamblers in Sydney and the neighbourhood ? Oh, some work
in the day-time and gamble at night.
5796. How many are good? There are very few really good ones.
5797. Do you think you are a good one ? No ; but no one can prove I ever stole anything.
5798. Tou think that your countrymen are mostly bad ? Yes ; even I am a hypocrite.
5799. You say there are over eighty lottery -houses ? There are eighty-three ; I counted them myself.
Sometimes there are as many as four lottery-banks in one store.
5800. How many fan- tan houses are there altogether? Altogether there are thirty -three, I think. I
have the book with me. Oh, after looking at the book I see that there are in "Waterloo and Botany and
in the city too, there are 133 altogether.
5801. Are there any over at North Shore? I do not know. I never go over there.
5802. If, as you say, you are only down from the country a short time, how do you know about all that
you have told us here ? Well, the first time I was down was for four months, and then after I had been
in the country again I came down again.
5803. Did you find out all about this gambling yourself, or did anybody tell you about it ? No ; I found
it all out myself, because I wanted to make a true report to the Inspector- General. I wanted to get the
whole truth before I sent in the report to him.
5804. You did it as your duty ;— you wanted to put down the evil ? Yes ; I would try to be good
if I could.
5805. How many Chinese communities are represented in Sydney ? There is the Chong Sing com-
munity, the Doon Goon community, the Hung Shaiig community, the Sun Wing community, the Sun
Wiy community, the Hoy Ping community, the Ying Ping community, the Hock Sang community, the
Go You community, the Go Ming community, the Sun On community, the Poon Yee community, the
Nam Hoy community, the Sun Tack community, the Par Yoon community, the Sam Soon community ;
but there are very few individuals belonging to the last-mentioned clan.
5806. Then there are sixteen communities represented in Sydney altogether ? Yes.
5807. I want you to mention the clans that are principally connected with opium-smoking and gambling,
and immorality, in Sydney and the suburbs ? Oh, the See Yip community smokes opium most and
gambles most, I think. There are not many storekeepers amongst them.
5808. You say that the See Yip community is in your opinion the worst ;— is the Rev. Soo Hoo Ten a
gambler then? No.
5809. Is he an opium-smoker? No, but some say that he is drinking.
5810. "Who told you that ? Sum On told me that the Eev. Soo Hoo Ten drinks.
5811. Yes, but he is out of town ; — did anybody in Sydney tell you that ? No ; only this person up the
country, because Soo Hoo Ten pretends to be religious.
5812. And how many See Yip people are there ? I could not tell you how many.
5813. Are there 1,000 ? No, not 1,000.
5814. A hundred ? More than 100.
5815. About how many then ? I could not swear how many there are.
5816. You say the See Yip people are the greatest opium-smokers and gamblers ; — I want you to tell me
about how many members of that community there are in Sydney ? I tell you I do not know. I never
counted them. You can tell as well as me.
5817. President."] You know the clan See Yip ? Yes.
5818. I want you to tell me, as near as you can, how many there are in that clan? I cannot tell you.
5819. I want you to tell me as near as possible ? As near as possible, I should say there are
about 300.
5820. Mr. Quong Tart.'] Now tell us some of the houses they occupy? They live at 228, 226, 224, 222,
and 220, Lower George-street. Those houses are entirely occupied by See Yip people.
5821. Now give us some more ? Han Kee, 166, Lower George-street, and 152, Lower George-street, and
also two shops opposite Sun Kum Tiy's of which I do not know the numbers.
5822. Do they carry on fan-tan ? Yes ; fan-tan in two places upstairs, and they sell lottery-tickets too.
The European larrikins go there.
5823. "Whose place are you speaking of ? Moy Ping's. His is the principal place for larrikins. He
says he is a little bit of a king.
5824. How many lottery-banks are there in those places ? There are three lottery -banks at 152, Lower
George-street, and three lottery banks at 228.
5825. How many lottery-places are there altogether in Lower George-street ? There are sis altogether
connected with the See Yip community.
5826. How many in Wexford-street and Campbell-street ? At 52, Goulburn- street there were twelve
lottery-banks, but since I gave information the number has been reduced to four. Mr. Goldtown has a
share in the one at No. 90. He has half a share there. There were four lottery-banks in Waterloo, but
two were given up two weeks ago. .
5827. Any more ? Yes. There are four gambling-houses in Goulburn-street belonging to the See Yip
people. There are four fan-tan places in Goulburn-street, and twelve lottery-banks ; thirty-six lottery-
banks there previously, belonging to Quong Lee. Since I came to Sydney, however, a lot of them have
been given up. At present there are also eight at Botany and two at "Waterloo.
5828. We are talking about the gambling-places in existence, and belonging to the See Yip at the present
time you know ? There are twenty -four, I think, altogether belonging to Quong Lee, but different
agents look after them. Pour new ones started this week in Lower George-street.
'5829. President.'] I want to know how many lottery-houses there are at present belonging to the See
Yip clan ? I cannot tell.
5830. Well, how many do you think ? There were eighty -three before, but I do not know how many
there are now.
5831. How many do you think there are now ? About twelve, I think.
272— T 5832.
146 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
E. Leo Kara. 5S32. Understand, you must answer these questions to the very best of your belief, and without any
' *-^""> unnecessary consumption of time. If you do not we shall have to send you away, and get a warrant out
0 Oct., 1891. f01, y0U an^ j,avo y0U gne(j £20, but we do not want to do that ? No ; but you see
5833. You are to answer the question, sir ?
5S:3k Mr. Qiwng Tart.] Are there any more in Campbell-street belonging to the See Yip people? Only
a place in Campbell-street, in which Moy Piug has a store.
5S35. How many gambling places has the Heong Shang community in Lower George-street? There
were three, but as I do not like to tell a lie you had better take round a book and count them.
5836. How many do you think ? Oh, I could not say.
5S:!7. More than a dozen ? Oh, more than a dozen.
5838. How many lotteries are there there ? There are two lottery-banks at Sam War's.
5839. What does Sam War do in connection with them ? Oh, he manages the bank.
5S40. Is he connected with the firm of Sun Sam War ? No ; he belongs to the firm of Yet See and Year
See. Tiy War Tong is also a lottery proprietor.
5841. Had Pow Chee anything to do with them ? No ; I will not swear that he has anything to do
with them.
5842. Now come back to Goulburn-street, and tell us what there is there ? No lottery in Goulburn-
street belongs to the Heong Shang community.
5843. Are there no members of the Heong Shang community there ? Oh, yes ; there are two fan-tan
places belonging to the Heong Shang community there, but they have only a share with the See Yip in
the lotteries.
5:-;44. Is there anything of that kind in Campbell-street belonging to the Heong Shang community ? Yes ;
there is a gambling-house belonging to Sam War there. It is at 52, CampbeJl-street ; Sun Lee runs it,
but Sam War is responsible for the money.
5845. Have you heard lately that Gut See and Goy Lee, belonging to Sam War, have a lottery ? No ; I
believe they closed their establishment lately.
5846. Are there any gambling-houses in Wexford-street belonging to the Heong Shang community ?
Yes ; there are five gambling-houses in Wexford-street belonging to that community, that is all.
5847. Now we come to the Go You Yap community ? Yes.
5848. To what society does Mr. Goldtown belong ? He is a representative of the Go You Yap people.
5849. How many fan-tan shops belong to them ? Pour in Lower George-street, I think.
5850. And how many lottery places in Lower George-street ? They have only got two or three in Lower
George-street.
5851. How many fan-tan houses have the Go You Yap colony in Goulburn-street? Eleven, I think, in
Goulburn-street.
5852. Are you sure ? No ; but I think the number is eleven. Several different colonies have a share in
some of them, however.
5853. You told me how many belonged to the See Yap, now I want to know how many belong to the
Go You Yap ? Yes ; eleven I think.
5854. How many lottery -banks have they in Goulburn-street? Ob. I meant that there are eleven
lottery-shops belonging to the Go You Yap in Goulburn-street ; — they have only six gambling-houses.
5855. What do you mean by " gambling-houses " ? Houses set apart for fan-tan.
5856. How many are there in Campbell-street belonging to Go Y"ou Yap? They have no gambling-
houses at all there, and only one lottery -bank.
5857. Now we come to Wexford-street ? They have none in Wexford-street.
5858. What do you know about the gambling-houses carried on by the Tung Yap community in Lower
George-street ? I think they have six or eight fan-tan houses in Lower George-street.
5859. And how many lottery-banks are there connected with them ? I think about six, but I am not sure.
5860. Now come up to Goulburn-street — how many fan-tan shops are there there ? There are one or
two gambling-houses and four lottery-banks.
5861. Are you sure that there are only one or two houses where fan-tan is played belonging to the Tung
Yap community in Goulburn-street ? Yes ; quite sure.
5862. Give us the name of them ? One belongs to Goon Iling, and the other to Goon Sing.
5863. How many lottery-places are there there ? Pour in Goulburn-street and two in Campbell-street.
There are four fan-tan houses in Campbell-street.
5864. Are there any in Wexford-street? There is one belonging to the Doong Coon community there.
5865. How many lottery-banks are there in Lower George-street belonging to the Chang Sing people ?
They have no lottery-banks and no gambling-houses in Lower George-street.
5866. Now I want to know how many they have in Goulburn-street ? None at all. There might be
individual members of that community engaged in gambling there, but as a community they have no house
set apart for that purpose.
5867. Have they any in Campbell-street ? There is only one, and it has only been open for a fortnight.
5868. How many of your people are there in Sydney? About 260. There are a lot of storekeepers
belonging to them, but not many gambling people. They have a lot of money too.
5869. Will you name some of the leading members of your community ? Well, there are On Chong,
and Sun Kum Tiy, and various other good firms.
5870. Has each community a society of its own ? No ; My Yup has no Society.
5871. Does each Yap have a society ? No"; I cannot swear that they have.
5S72. What Yap does the Loong Ye Tong belong to ? Oh, that society broke down a long time ago.
5873. Who did it belong to? The Chang Sing and Doon Goon communities.
5874. Is that the Yap that beat Ah Chuck with an iron bar ? The Doon Goon did that. I was up in
the country at the time, but I heard about it.
5875. What interest have you in the gambling-houses in Waterloo ? I have no share at all in them.
5876. About how much do you make in a week? I am making nothing by gambling.
5877. But I am referring to your ordinary business — what is it ? I keep a garden and grow tobacco, and
I also sell cabbages. Here are the bills of lading from the Eailway Department.
5878. How long have you known Sark Yin? Oh, he is my relation — my countryman.
5879. What business is he in ? He sells tickets for lotteries.
5880.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES 03? EVIDENCE. 147
5880. And lie keeps a fan-tan place, does he not ? No; he only sells lottery-tickets. If they shut up B. LeeKam.
the- lottery places he will have to go and do some work. You want very particularly to know all /-^-^-—-v
about him. 9 Oct., 1891.
5881. I see that you and he wanted to shut down other gambling-houses, so that you could get better
trade for your own, I suppose ? No.
'5882. Do you receive part of the fine in all cases in which your information leads to a conviction ? No.
5883. Have you ever received anything ? No ; you can go to the Quarter Sessions and ask them.
588-1. You say that the information you have given to the police about gambling-houses has not been
taken any notice of ;— do they suspect you of having tried to mislead them '? No. They say, " Oh, you
go back to the country and we will do it by-and-bye. We have got all the information we want. Don't
you trouble yourself about it."
5885. You said the other day that Quong Lee gave the police a lot of presents about Christmas time ;-—
I want to know what was the nature of those presents? I did not say that they gave presents to the
police, but I have heard a lot of people say that they did so.
588G. Can you give me the name of any person who saw them give the presents ? No ; no person in the
the world could say that he saw the presents given. Is it likely ?
5887. You say that there was a meetirjg at Sun Sam War's after the deputation of the members of the
Anti-Chinese Gambling League to the Premier ? Yes ; they had a meeting convened through Pow Chee.
58S8. You say he was the principal speaker for the gamblers ? Yes ; he was the leader.
5889. And what amount of money was subscribed at that meeting ? They wanted to get £400 or £500.
5890. How many persons were at the meeting ? I was not there.
5891. No, but you must have learned what took place in conversation with others who were there ? No,
nobody told me ; but I heard that the people from the various gambling-shops had given so much money.
5892. How does Pow Chee make his living ? I do not know ; he is a stranger to me.
5893. How long did the meeting last ? I do not know. I did not take much notice.
5894. What decision, with regard to gambling, did they come to at that meeting ? All I know is that
afterwards Pow Chee collected a few shillings from the gambling-tables for the purpose of covering
advertising and preliminary expenses.
5895. What community does Pow Chee belong to ? Pow Chee is of the Heong Shang community ; so
does James Ung Quoy.
5890. You say that Shop Yin and Han Yin tried to put down gambling, and that some merchants sub-
scribed money to enable you to do that ; — now we want to know their names ? Oh, no ; they will not
give you any names.
5897. You must give us their names ? Oh, no ; I cannot. They gave the money to these people whilst
I was down here.
5898. Do you think that Long Pen would be a good man to help you to put down gambling? No. At
the time that I tried to put the gambling-houses down Long Pen was on the gamblers' side.
5899. Upon leaving Sydney after your insolvency where did you go to in the first place ? The first place
I went to was Hay. I went there for the wool was lively. A gentleman gave me a character to enable
me to go into the bush and get a contract.
5900. Is the tobacco farm at Gundagai your own ? No ; I have three shares in it. It belongs to Dr.
Marston, and we owe him a lot of money on it yet. The crops have failed during the last year or two,
but we guarantee rations to the men.
5901. You say you have not sworn for four years ; — how is it that you were brought up in Wagga Wagga
and fined £2 for using bad language ? Oh, they put me in wrong. I was there selling potatoes, and I
said to the constable, "You keep away from my store." Then they brought me before the magistrate,
and 1 was fined £2, but it was through false swearing, and I said that I would have the constable up for
perjury. , ,
5902. Is it not a fact that you have two shares in a gambling-house in Wexford-street at the present
time, and one share in Wong Sark at the present time also ? No. I
5903. Also a share in a gambling-house at 4G, Campbell-street ? No.
5904. Mr. Abigail.] Have you no share whatever in any gambling-place in the whole city? No.
5905. Had you within the last month ? No.
5906. Mr. Quong Tart.] Besides two shares in houses in Waterloo — onein the house occupied by Goon Chug
Tong, and the other inNeal Teang's? No.
5907. Have you not often played fan-tan in those two places ? No.
5908. Were not two shares given to you to induce you not to inform the police, also to secure your
services in their defence if they should be informed against? No.
5909. You swear that ? Yes, I swear it. What about the £100 that you got for sending the new chum
countrymen back to China ?
5910. Did you not guarantee these people, as soon as you got these shares that there should be no
prosecution ? No.
5911. Ts it not a fact that you are now living, and for some considerable time past have lived upon the
gambling-houses alone ? No ; I never receive a single farthing from them. I swear that. What about
the £100 for the new chum countrymen ?
5912. Mr. Abigail.] Did you say that you had £250 in the bank to the credit of the woman with whom
you are living ? No ; not so much.
5913. How much ? I cannot tell.
5914. Is it £60 ? Something like that.
5915. Between £60 and £100 ? Something like that.
5916. How did you make that money ? Out of contract work.
5917. And you swear that you did not get it from any of the Chinese gambling-places ? Not a farthing.
Ask Mr. Quong Tart where did the money go for the new chums ?
5918. Mr. Quong Tart.] I want you to make a full statement about it ?
5919. President.] What does it refer to ; — is it about the business of the Commission ?
5920. Mr. Quonff Tart.] No ; it has reference to another matter.
5921. President.] Then we cannot be bothered with it.
Yon
148 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINTTES OP EVIDENCE.
Ton re-examined, through the interpreter : —
Ton. 5922. President.] You want to correct your evidence, I believe? Yes.
s—*-^- — <, 5923. In what respect? I am represented to have said that the police grabbed the money on the fan-tau
9 Oct., 1891. tables when they were making raids on the gambling-houses, and I wish now to say that that is a mistake.
The police did not grab the money.
5924. Listen to this : Question 368 reads as follows :— " Did the police ever make a raid and snatch up the
money that was on the fan-tan board ? " And to that question you are reported to have given this answer,
" Sometimes when a raid of that kind is made the police and everybody present snatch whatever they can
lay their hands on." You now wish to say that that answer is wrong ? Yes. The police do not snatch
the money.
5925. "With whom were you going through the evidence ? "With the Secretary to the Commission, and it
was then that I pointed out the mistake.
5926. Since giving the evidence have you conferred with any of the police about the matter ? No, sir.
5927. You are perfectly sure ? Yes.
Moy Youk called and examined, through the interpreter : —
Moy Youk. 5928. President.] "Where do you live ? In Castlereagh-street.
/ — ^-"-n 5929. How long have you lived there ? For more than ten years.
9 Oct., 1891. 5930. "Were you ever present in any of the gaming-saloons in Lower George-street ? I have been in and
out once or twice.
5931. "Will you swear that you are not a frequenter of some of them ? Sometimes I go in, but only on
business.
5932. But you are a frequent visitor on business only ? No ; I do not go in very often.
5933. Do you know Mr. Bowker ? No ; I do not know him.
5934. "Were you ever present when a policeman came into a gaming-saloon in Lower George-street ?
No ; I was not.
5935. And you will swear that you are not connected with a gambling-den at 202, Lower George-street ?
Yes ; I will.
5936. "Who keeps that particular gaming-house ? I do not know.
5937. Does not Ah Ping keep it? No ; not 202, Lower George-street.
5938. Then what is the number of his place ? It is No. 226.
5939. And Moy Ping is your brother ? Yes.
5940. Well, you have been at your brother's place a good many times? I have not been there for a
long time.
5941. "When were you last there ? Over a year ago.
5942. "Will you swear that it is over a year since you were last in your brother's house ? It is about
a year.
5943. "Will you swear positively that you were not there three months ago ? Yes ; I have not been there
within the last few months.
5944. You have not, within the last six months, been to see your brother ? No.
5945. Now, were you not there only a fortnight ago ? No.
5946. "Where did you receive the notice to attend as a witness before the Commission ? I went down
below a couple of nights ago, and got it then. ,
5947. But you have just sworn that you had not been at your brother's place for six months ? I went
down to 208, Lower George-street, not 206, where my brother lives.
594S. Did not you swear when last you were here that the letter was sent to you in Castlereagh-street
by a Chinaman ? Yes ; I did swear that. Altogether I received two letters, however. The first was
sent to me down there. The next time the messenger called (with the second notice), it was left at 208,
and it was there that I got it.
5949. My opinion is that you have perjured yourself by making these contradictory statements, and if
you do not tell me what occurred when the policeman came into Moy Ping's I fear that we shall have to
send you up to Darlinghurst Gaol to reflect ? I am telling the truth.
5950. "Were you telling the truth when you told us a lie the other day ? I did not tell a lie.
5951. "Well how do you explain the discrepancy between the evidence you have given before the Com-
mission to-day and the evidence you gave the last time you were here ? "When the letter was taken
down to Lower George-street I could not be found, but as some of my countrymen down there knew me
it was left at 208, and from 208 it was brought to me.
5952. "Were you ever in your brother's gambling-saloon when Constable O'Sullivan came in ? No.
5953. Have you seen any of the policemen connected with the Lower George-street district during the
last fortnight or the last month ? No ; I do not know any policemen at all.
5954. Where did you sleep last night ? At Toy Lee's, in Castlereagh-street.
5955. "Who is Toy Lee ? He is the proprietor of a boarding-house that used to belong to my father.
5956. How long have you been living there ? A little over one year.
5957. "What do you do for a living ? There are stables for horses, and it is also a boarding-house that I
live at. I am connected with both.
5958. Do you carry on the business ? I am carrying it on for my father.
5959. And where is your father ? He went home to China during the last few years.
5960. Does your brother keep a gaming-house in Lower George-street ? He used to have one.
5961. How long ago was that ? I do not know how long ago it is since he left it oft.
5962. Can you tell me how long it is since your brother kept a gaming-house ? I do not know, because
I am up at the other end of the town.
5963. I want to know how long ago it is to your knowledge? It is two or three months ago.
5964. How do you know that it is only two or three months since your brother left the boarding-house ?
I have been told that.
5965. Had you been down there yourself ? People came down to my place from Lower George-street,
and told me that my brother had been arrested, and since then they have told me that the gambling-house
has been given up.
5966. It is about seventeen months ago since you visited your brother's place, you say ? I do not speak
to my brother. I am not friendly with him. 5967.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 149
5967. Is it a year ago since you were last in his place ? Tes ; it is about a year ago. ^or Yonk.
5968. Do you remember a policeman coming in one night, and disturbing you at the game there ? No, a'7^J^~S
5969. Do you remember a man in plain clothes coming in and disturbing the game ? No. "' 1891,
5970. Did you ever, when you were present there, offer to fight any one when he came in ? No.
5971. Did you ever have any conversation at any time with a policeman in uniform or in plain clothes ?
No ; I did not. I know none of them.
5972. Do you know of any gambling-houses in Castlereagh-street ? No ; I do not know of any.
5973. Do you know of any gambling-houses in Sydney at all ? Tes ; I know of some.
5974. Where are they ? Down in Lower George-street.
5975. Are there many of them down in Lower George-street ? I cannot tell exactly how many. I have
never counted them.
5976. Can you give us an idea ? I cannot say how many there are.
5977. "Would you kindly try ;— we should be very much obliged to you if you would ? I cannot sy fo r
certain. I never counted them.
5978. Are you a member of the Loon Te Tong Society ? No ; I know nothing at all about it.
5979. Do you know anything about any society ? I do not savey them.
5980. Tou are not a member of any of them yourself ? No.
5981. What is your opinion about this gambling ;— should it be suppressed? I should not like to say
what my opinion is.
5982. But if you would not mind, the Commission would be so much obliged to you ? No ; I would not
like to give my opinion as to whether gambling is good or bad, or whether it ought to be stopped or not.
5983. Why will you not say ? No ; I will not say.
5984. Are you afraid ? -I will not say one way or the other.
5985. Do you live with any woman ? No.
5986. Do you allow opium-smoking in your house ? No.
5987. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you smoke opium yourself ? No.
5988. President.] What is the number of the house you live in ? 327, Castlereagh-street.
5989. And what do you do there ? I keep stables and a boarding-house.
5990. And you never visit fan-tan or any other kind of gambling establishments ? No.
5991. Do you take any interest in the well-being of your countrymen here ? I take this interest : that if
any poor people want to go home to China I help them to do so.
5992. And are there not a number of societies that do the same ? Tes.
5993. Is not the Loon Te Tong one of them ? I do not know anything about the Loon Te Tong.
5994. What societies are there then that do this charitable work? I do not know anything about them
at all.
5995. How long have you been out here ? Between sis and seven years this trip.
5996. Is it your opinion that gambling is pernicious to your people ? I cannot say myself whether it is
or it is not.
5997. Do you consider that you are possessed of the brains of an ordinary man ? As far as gambling is
concerned, if people like to go and gamble that is their business, but I prefer to keep myself to myself.
5998. Then let me ask you this : Do you abstain from gambling because you think that the practice is
pernicious as far as you are concerned ? There are plenty who mix themselves up with gambling, but,
personally, I do not want to have anything to do with it.
5999. Why ; — is it because you think it is bad for you, or because, on general principles, you think it is
bad ? I cannot answer that question.
6000. If you do not answer that question we shall have to adjourn and bring you here again, and if you
do not come you will be summoned to the Police Court and fined £20. I have asked you whether you
do not play fan-tan, because you think it would be pernicious for yourself, or because you think that
gambling is bad for anybody. Tou can answer it entirely as a personal question if you like ? I think
that the matter rests entirely with the Government. If the Government wants to stop gambling it
can stop it. As far as I am concerned, I care nothing at all about it.
6001. Mr. Abigail.] Are you a free agent? I will have nothing at all to do with it.
6002. Are you a free agent or under a pledge not to give any evidence ? ■
6003. Mr. Quong Tart.] The Commission wants your opinion. Tou must say one way or the other. If
you do not answer the questions put to you the Commission has the power to send you before a magistrate,
and get you fined £20 ? I am afraid to give my opinion upon the question.
6004. President.] That is a better answer. If you will tell me why you are afraid I will let you go ?
No ; I will not say why I am afraid.
6005. Well, are you afraid of some of your countrymen being angry with you ? No ; I will not answer
that question one way or the other.
6006. Well, the meeting is adjourned, and you will have to attend here at 11 o'clock on Monday morning,
and if you do not come we will summon you, and you will be fined £20 ? I take no interest in gambling
one way or the other.
6007. Tou are to attend here at 11 o'clock oa Monday morning ? Very well.
MONDAY, 12 OCTOBER, 1891,
The Mayor op Sydney (Me. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
EEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pkesident,
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Mr. Walter Jeff ery called and examined : —
6008. Mr. Abigail.] What position do you occupy, Mr. Jeffery ? I am sub-Editor of the Town a id Mr
Country Journal. W. Jeffery.
6009. Tou know the purpose of this Commission ? Tes. /-^_\— — N
6010. It has been appointed to take evidence as to the question of Chinese gambling ; as to the moral 12 Oct., 1891.
and sanitary condition of these places ; and further, as to a charge of bribery made against the police.
We
*°0 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MTNTTES OV EVIDENCE,
' t1*,. . ^'' :,rc endeavouring to obtain evidence which will enable ns to report on these several matters, and we
01 •'*• have summoned you to attend here this morning to assist us to that end, by giving any evidence you may
12 Ol4^1891 *lim' io °^er on tne 8UDJect generally. Tou have, I believe, some knowledge of the Chinese gambling.
' houses existing in different parts of the city r I have seen something of them. I may explain that I
was in ,San Francisco some time ago, and having seen the Chinese there I took some interest in them in
Sydney; and when I came to Sydney I wrote some articles on the subject for the Evening News. That
was about four years ago. Just about three and a half years ago there was an agitation against the
Chinese in Sydney, and as I was reporting on the Evening News at the time, it became my duty to go
about among the Chinese a good deal, particularly in Goulburn-street, Waterloo, and Botany. I did
not see so much of them in Lower George-street.
1)011. Then, in following up the question, you visited a number of these places in Goulburn-street ? Yes.
6012. In whose company did you go to these places ? Generally with another newspaper reporter. But
I went on one occasion with a detective officer of Ko. 3 police division.
0013. "What is the detective officer's name ? Goulder.
001-1. When you visited the Chinese houses in Goulburn-street first, Mr. Jeffery, what did you find them
engaged in ? On no occasion did we catch them in the act of gambling. Briefly, what struck me most in
regard to these places was their filthy condition ; the entire absence of any approach, even, to the obser-
vance of ordinary sanitary laws. The occupants were always smoking opium, and on each occasion had
evidently just stopped gambling immediately prior to our entrance. I never succeeded in getting in
while they were gambling.
6015. Did you see all the implements of gambling on the table when you entered ? I cannot say
that. We found them assembled round the tables, but did not see any of their brass coins. I know how
the game is played from my experience of the Chinese quarters in San Erancisc'o. From what I saw as
we entered the houses in Goulburn-street, I have no doubt that they had just finished, or stopped playing
as we got in.
6010. Tou found all of these places in a very bad sanitary condition ? Yes ; that is the case.
6017. Have you noticed any women about these places, or noticed anything indicating immorality between
the sexes ? Well, yes ; 1 have seen women there ; but I noticed more men than women — I mean
European men.
6018. Going from Goulburn-street to Waterloo, did you find the same state of things existing there ?
Yes. The places there were in a filthy dirty condition.
6019. Did you witness any gambling going on there ? No.
0020. Or in Botany ? No.
6021. Then the result of your inspection of the Chinese premises in Goulburn-street, in the city, and
Waterloo, or the impression made upon your mind was chiefly with regard to their bad sanitary con-
dition and the evidences of immorality amongst the occupants of these places ? Yes. Of course I know
a lot from hearsay, but I am now simply giving you the results of my own personal observation.
0122. Did you then hear, or have you since heard, anything in reference to the police not suppressing
these things? No,
6123. Have you looked up the law as it relates to these gambling-houses? Not specially; but I have
heard that great difficulties exist in the matter of obtaining convictions when any attempt has been made
by the police to deal with them. I have not studied the law on the subject ; but I have always understood
that the police authorities labour under great difficult)'. That is to. say, when they have succeeded in
arresting some of these gamblers, and proceeded against them in one of the courts, they have found
considerable difficulty in securing convictions against them.-
012-1. When you went round in company with the detective police officer, did he make any remarks on
the practices carried on in these Chinese quarters, or did he express any desire to suppress them ? Well,
he took me round chiefly with the object of showing me the filthy condition of the dens the Chinese lived
in, and did not refer to the gambling. In fact I may tell you it never struck me that the gambling was
an objectionable feature of the business. I was more impressed with the opium-smoking and the filthy
state of the places they inhabit.
6025. You say it never struck you that gambling was an objectionable feature ? No ; it certainly did
. not occur to me in that light.
6026. Do you know that hundreds of Europeans, men and boys, are under an infatuation as regards
Chinese gambling, and frequent these places whenever they can, every day in the week, and spend every
shilling they get there ? I have not seen the state of things you describe in Goulburn-street. I have
not seen so much of them in Lower George-street.
6027. If such a state of things as I have described does exist, do you think it would present a permanent
objection to the Chinese gambling-dens, and be a reason for suppressing them ? Well, it might be a
little worse, perhaps, than the gambling which is carried on at any of our race-courses ; but really I
cannot see very much difference.
6028. Generally, what is your feeling with respect to gambling, Mr. Jeffery ? I object to it strongly.
But I have said I was not much impressed with that aspect of the question at the time I visited these
places. What I did see, and what has astonished me for a very long time, was the condition of the
premises in Goulburn-street — the entire absence of anything like sanitary precaution or cleanliness.
If such a state of things is contrary to law, why is not the law enforced ; and if there is no law at
present to adequately deal with it, why is not one quickly passed ? There is a regular barracks for
Chinese there, and the state in which they live is abominable.
0029. That is a place called Eobinson's-lane, is it not ? It is on the left-hand side going towards the
Trades' Hall.
0030. Eobinson's old coach factory ? It is evidently something of that kind. The ground utilised for
water-closet purposes was also used for storing the vegetables which the Chinese sell about the streets
during the day.
6031. You are of opinion that the state of things you saw there must be detrimental to the health and
well-being of the surrounding neighbourhood ? Yes ; I am certain of that. I believe I may say without
exaggeration that there were nearly ninety or 100 Chinamen in that place. The houses consist of walls with
a lean-to, and they sleep in sack bunks. " I went into another place divided off into five or six rooms, with
four or five Chinamen in each room, and in some cases two or three Europeans as well. In each of these
cases the detective routed the Europeans put. 6032.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 151
6032. Did you notice any women there ? "We fouud a number of women hanging about outside. They Mr.
evidently belonged to the Chinamen. They were prostitutes. W- JefFery.
6033. Tou have no evidence to offer as to neglect of duty on the part of the police in connection with the -,/T'^^,
continued existence of these gambling-dens in the state you describe? No ; on that point I can only ' "•
speak from hearsay, and it struck me, as far as 1 could see and learn from them, that the police were
rather chagrined because they could not catch these people. The Chinamen are so very cute, and have
most elaborate arrangements to prevent anyone getting in to surprise them. They have men on guard,
and a stranger could not get admittance. The police complain of the difficulty of getting at these people,
and also that when they do bring them to Court it is fifty to one if they secure a conviction.
6034. Do they complain that the offenders are let off too lightly in Court, or, in other words, that they
are fined instead of being imprisoned ? The law is somewhat complicated on that point, I understand.
I may mention that it is fully two years since I was doing reporting work outside, so that I have had
less opportunity of studying the question practically. But I understand, that is, I have always under-
stood the police to complain, in the first place, that they have great difficulty in getting into the Chinese
gambling-dens, and, secondly, that when they do proceed against them, the law is so complicated that they
frequently get off, because it is provided that they must be caught in the act.
6035. I understand you to say that you have not'visited any of these places within the last two or three
years ? No.
6036. Therefore you cannot say anything as to their condition since the time you went round as you
have described ? Not directly, but I may mention that I wrote an article at the time descriptive of what
I had seen in Goulburn-street, and I find that they cannot be much altered, because an article appeared
in the Daily Telegraph much less than a year ago showing that the places in question were in much the
same condition as I found and described them three and a half years before. I recognised the places as
being the same when I read the Dally Telegraph article.
6037. Mr. McKillop.] Have you ever visited any of the country towns of New South Wales, Mr.
Jeffery ? Tes ; I have never seen them play fan-tan there.
6038. Do you think, if the same amount of gambling was carried on by Europeans as the Chinamen
indulge in, that the laws of the country would be put in force against them ? Well, 1 think there is
quite as much gambling among Europeans. Take Kace Clubs for example, and all such places. There is
as much gambling there as among the Chinese.
6030. But the police harass the people who run totes, and looking to that fact, do you not think it
singular that these Chinese gambling-dens should be allowed to run such a length of 'time without a raid
being made upon them ? No, I do not, considering the difficulties in the way ; and there is not much
difference as far as that goes ; they make a raid now and then on the Chinese places and do the same with
the tobacconists who run the totes.
60-10. Have you been in any of those places shown on the photograph before you with white paper notices
posted in front ? No ; but I have seen those places.
6041. Did you ever hear what these notices or tickets signify ? I have heard that it means that fan-tan
is carried on inside.
6042. Tes, "fan-tan day and night." Now, if the same public notices were put up outside European
establishments, do you not think the police would prosecute them ? Not necessarily in the existing
state of the laws.
6043. But if they placed notices up stating that gambling was carried on in the premises ? If the notices
were in English I imagine they would.
6044. Well Dhere are two Government interpreters of the Chinese language; — could not the police
therefore easily find out the meaning of the notices I refer to if they were curious enough to inquire ?
Doubtless they could ; but, as I have said before, I did not intend in coming here to say anything about the
gambling. I have paid more attention to the sanitary question, aud there can be no doubt that the state
of the Chinese quarters I visited was something disgraceful, and a reproach to any civilised community.
It should be somebody's business to see how many people live in these places and if proper sanitary
provisions are complied with, if not they should be routed out.
6045. Have you seen much opium-smoking ? Tes. That is another matter that has struck me as
demanding serious attention ; that and the sanitary condition of these places.
6046. Have you noticed Europeans smoking opium in these places? Tes, and always under the influence
of it. The result seems to be to make them regular outcasts of society, and as the vicious habit takes
hold of them it prevents them being reclaimed. Once they take to smoking opium they are fairly lost.
Strong measures should be taken to prevent the drug being imported except under the most stringent
regulations..
6047. Tou have spoken about being in San Francisco ; — did you spend much time there ? I was there
about five months.
6048. Were you connected with the Press in San Francisco ? No ; I was there on other business.
6049. And you visited the Chinese gambling-dens there, out of curiosity, I suppose ? Tes ; they are
very much worse there.
6050. Are you of opinion that there is a likelihood of the Chinese gambling evil assuming equally large
dimensions here if the Government do not take some steps to check it? No, not since the poll-tax has
been introduced. .That, in connection with a vigorously-enforced sanitary law, equal to the circumstances I
have mentioned, should have the effect of causing it to die out gradually. Very few of this class, I
imagine, would remain. Of course there are numbers of highly respectable Chinese in the country.
6051. Have you heard of any cases of criminal assault upon young boys in connection with the life in
these Chinese dens ? No.
6052. Mr. Hawthorne.] Did you make the Chinese question in San Francisco a study while you were
there ? No, I was merely a casual observer, but I took considerable interest in the Chinese here in
consequence of my visit to 'Frisco.
6053. They are quartered in one particular part of the town there, are they not ? Tes ; that is one great
advantage there.
6054. And they have municipal laws in San Francisco which compel the Chinese inhabitants to conform
to certain sanitary conditions ? Tes. I believe that is the case.
6055. Do you think a similar law should be applied to the Chinese here — that is, that they should be
compelled to live in one particular portion of the city ? Tes. Tou may go down Lower George-street
and
152 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. and Goulburn-street and see small houses occupied by Chinese ou either side, with no other supervision
W. Jeffery. than the accidental visit of a policeman now and then. This is manifestly a wrong state of things. With
iCn~^vmi 8UC'1 a lax% °f supervision in the case of the class of Chinese referred to you can expect nothing better
12 Oct., 18.1. tjjan ^ experjence we have. With a proper system of inspection, backed up by strict sanitary laws, the
state of things I have referred to in particular could not exist.
6056. From your knowledge of the Chinese here you regard the sanitary aspect of the question as being
of greater importance than the gambling propensities of the race? Yes, for there can be no doubt about
the necessity of sanitary laws on the score of the public health and common decency ; but I cannot see
how gambling on the part of the Chinese can be regarded as such a terrible evil in a community where
there is so much gambling in every shape and form.
6057. You think that the Europeans are as bad as the Chinese in that respect ? Yes ; I have always
looked upon it in that light. It has always seemed to me that it does not matter to any one if a China-
man gambles in his own house. So far as the gambling question itself is concerned — without reference
to the mode of living, or vicious habits like opium-smoking — I fail to see that the Chinamen require to be
specially dealt with more than the European section of the population who indulge in similar practices.
For example, the Chinaman, to my mind, is no more a spider to catch European flies than the European
bookmaker, and people of that class.
6058. Mr. Mc.KiUop.~\ In San Francisco the Chinese inhabitants are confined to a particular part of the
town ? Yes ; and they are consequently kept under much better control. You come upon them
suddenly, as in some cities in India you do Coolie Town — a small Colony in itself.
6059. You think it would be well to adopt that principle in Australia ? Yes ; hecause you could look
after them much better.
6060. In your opinion it would be better to keep them isolated ? Yes ; and special laws made to apply
to them. I am under the impression that the existing law is the same for the Chinese as for the white
population. That is absurd. Because the proof required to secure conviction of a white man in respect
to gambling it is next to impossible to obtain in the case of a Chinaman. For example, there is the
initial difficulty of getting into those places. Why, in one of the houses which I visited in Goulburn-
street it took us five minutes to reach one room. We passed three guards at each of the doors, of which
there was quite a number. It was like entering a gaol. We passed through half a dozen of these doors,
and then up a ladder, through a trap-door, to a room, or loft, under the roof. It was more like the kind
of thing you read about in novels than a reality of life in our midst. I could hardly have thought it
possible Had I not seen it, and gone through it. It called to mind places like EadclifE Highway, where
they used to rob and murder sailors, and that kind of thing.
6061. Did you find any Europeans there ? Yes ; hidden away in the loft — wretched white men, crowded
with the Chinamen, and smoking opium.
6062. Have you, in your experience as a journalist, ever heard anything of charges against the police of
receiving bribes frorn the Chinese in Lower G-edrge- street ? No. I do not know much about Lower
George-street. I have hung round there, and talked to the police and others ; but I never saw anything
of consequence there.
6063. Have you noticed Europeans going in and out of the Chinese establishments there ? Yes ; you
can see that by walking down the street any time during the evening.
6064. Have you ever seen any of the police enter these places ? No ; I have not.
6065. Did you ever know the Chinamen down there to induce men to go into the gambling-houses ? No ;
not to my knowledge.
6066. Have you known or heard of respectable females being insulted by the Chinese in that
quarter ? No.
6067. Have you been through any of the Chinese settlements in the country ? No.
6068. You have said, I think, that the police experience considerable difficulty in procuring convictions
against the Chinese gamblers whom they prosecute from time to time ? Yes.
6069. That is, I suppose, mainly by reason of the inaccessibility of the premises, as you have described?
Yes ; because that prevents them, in the majority of cases, from obtaining sufficient evidence to prove their
case.
6070. Did I understand you rightly to say that you did not visit the dens of Lower George-street yourself ?
Yes ; I did not visit them.
6071. Did you try? Yes.
6072. You tried at various times, and failed ? Yes.
6073. To what did you attribute your failure ? To respectable appearance, I suppose.
6074. Then these Europeans whom you saw going in were not of respectable appearance ? No ; cer-
tainly not.
6075. They were habitues of the place, I suppose ? Yes ; I have not the slightest doubt.
6076. They had the entree ? Yes.
6077. Would that incline you to the opinion that the police have great difficulty in procuring convictions
against the Chinese gamblers in Lower George-street ? Yes. Indeed it seems to me that the only way
to get at them is to give the police .greater powers altogether.
6078. Are you acquainted with the police by -Jaws on the subject now ? What I understand is that if they
have reasonable grounds for supposing that gambling is carried on they may enter the premises, and
arrest the persons they find there, and charge them with gambling, but in order to prove the gambling they
must swear that they saw them in the act. It is not sufficient for a policeman to say, for example, "No.
41, George-street, is a gambling-house. I know it to be so." That ought to be sufficient, I think, but it
is not under the existing law.
6079. You have evidently given some study to the subject, and, in your opinion, the remedy for this
Chinese gambling is to extend the powers of the police, and give greater facilities for proving a case ; —
you think if the police prove generally that a house is used for gambling purposes, then the presence of
people in the room at a fan-tan table, with the implements of the game, should be sufficient to procure a
conviction ? Yes, I think so, certainly.
6080. Mr. Hawthorne^ If such a law were introduced to apply to the Chinese, do you not think it should
be made equally applicable to the European population and their gambling clubs ? Yes, I should say,
but I have not given that aspect of the question much attention, except that it has always seemed to me
to
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 153
to be sheer hypocrisy to complain of Chinese gambling when there is so much of it going on among the Mr.
Luropeans With regard to the Chinese gambling, I think the best way you can go about suppressing w- Jaffery-
that is by doing as the President has put it. I quite agree with that. ' ^— ^
6081. But you think it would be unfair to make one law apply to the Chinese gambler, and exempt the 120ct" 189h
European f lhat is what has always occurred to me, certainly.
6082. Mr Quong Tart] Have you ever seen any of the well-known respectable Chinese merchants
entering the places where these gambling notices are stuck up ? No
608.3. You think the police could ascertain the meaning of these notices if they liked ? Yes, they pro-
bably do know ; and I have no doubt myself that the police have made frequent attempts to catch these
people. -1 l
6084 And you never saw any respectable Chinese in these places ? No ; the respectable Chinese mer-
chants are altogether different, as I know from personal experience.
[The witness withdrew.]
12 Oct., 1891.
"Win. Pow Chee called and examined : —
™o« wf ide-nt^ Where do J"011 live ? At No- 318> Sussex-street. Po W^h „
6086. VVhat is your business or occupation ? I am a schoolmaster and interpreter. I used to keep a -^/LT
night-school.
6087. Of what class of the community are your pupils ? I teach any of the Chinese who want to learn
English. J
C088. And you are interpreter, you say ? Yes.
6089. By whom are you employed as interpreter ? By my own people who want anyone to look after
their business, and also I have been employed on different occasions by the Grovernment.
6090. How long have you been in this country ? Close on thirteen years.
6091. Are you married? lam.
• 6092. Have you only one wife here ? Yes.
6093. Are there any Chinese societies in Sydney that you know ? Yes.
6094. Will you tell me the names of them ? There is one very old society called Quong Sing Tong ;
there are also Koong Yee Tong, Loon Yee Tong, Chung Pook Tong, Yum Tak Tong, and Bo On Long.
Those are all I know.
6095. What is the object of No. 1— the Quong Sing Tong ? Most of these societies were instituted for
charitable purposes, to assist any of our countrymen in poverty, difficulty, or sickness. Aho in the case
of old people who have no money to go home, they will paylheir expenses.
6090. Then the objects of most of them are good ? Yes.
0097. Are you a member of the Loon Yee Tong ? No ; I am a member of the Yum Tak Long and
Chung Pook Tong. I know the society you mention has done some good, but 1 do not know very much
of it.
6098. Do you know how many members there are in the Loon Yee Tong ? It belongs to two districts,
and I think about 80 or 90 per cent, of those districts belong to the society.
6099. It has a pretty numerous membership ? I think it is about 1,500.
6100. 'Mr. Quong Tart.~\ In Sydney? Yes ; in Sydney, and some in the country. I think it has about
that number.
6101. President^ Has the society any other object besides the charitable purposes you have spoken of?
That I cannot say, because I do not belong to ir.
6102. What you heard then — do you not know, as a matter of fact that they have some other object?
1 have heard nothing about the Loon Yee Tong.
G101, Do you moan to say that you do not know the Loon Yee Tong has other objects besides assisting
sick and aged people ? 1 know it once sent a largo amount of money to the hospital in I-Iong Kong.
6104. Tell me under what circumstances they sent that money to the hospital in Hong Kong ? They sent
the money to prepare coffins, and - — -
6105. Come, do you not know that they sent the money home because they had a dispute here among
themselves ? Yes, they had. I know there was some dispute — I heard so.
6108. You can very well distinguish between what you know and what you heard. You must not conceal
anything P No ; I do not conceal anything.
6107. You had better not. Now, do you not know that they sent the money home because they had a
violent dispute among themselves ? I do not know that they had a violent dispute. All I know is that
that society belongs to two districts, and they could not agree ; I cannot tell you what the disagreement
was ; but I know there was some dispute, and so the society was dissolved.
6108. Eemember you are on your oath, and if you do not speak the truth the consequences will be
unpleasant. Do you not know, or have you not heard, that one of the objects of the Loon Yee Tong is to
defend members of the society against prosecutions by the police, or against attacks by' any other persons,
when they consider it right to use the funds for that purpose ? I cannot say that. I never heard anythir g
of that kind.
6109. You have never heard that they have employed, or may use their funds for defending the members
of the society from the police ? No ; I never heard that.
6110. Or to pay the fines of members proceeded against at the Police Court ? No.
6111. Will you swear that the funds of the Loon Yee Tong are used only for charitable purposes? I
will swear they have done some good things, but will not swear that they have not done some improper
things.
6112. What makes the doubt in your mind ? Because there was a case between two districts, Ton King
and Hong Chong, and from what I heard the parties could not supply the expenses for the law, and the
society assisted them.
6113. Can you tell me what particular case that was ? I cannot tell you that. That is what I heard.
6114. I want to know what the case was ? No. I remember the case was settled after all.
6115. What were the names of the people ? There were a good few altogether in the case.
6116. Tell me some of the principal ? Wong Kong, Chung Cheong, and Chung Kum.
6117. Now tell me what the case was about ? It arose out of a gambling-house, 6118.
272— V
154 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
W. 6118. Whose gambling-house? I do not know the name.
Pow Chee. qhqm ye\i me where it was? It was in the old premises of Samuel, the pawnbroker's establishment, in
i2nT~ifWl -^ower George-street.
c '' ' (5120. Who was it that first appealed to the Loon Tee long ? I do not know that.
6121. What was the nature of the dispute ? Something connected with the fan-tan gambling.
6122. Was it a dispute about the division of the profits — the winnings ? No ; it was not that.
6123. Then what was it ? Wong Kong went into the house to play fan-tan, and they had a dispute
about something, and there was a fight.
612-1. What was it about ; — what did they fight for ? They fought for the money.
6125. How much money was invoked ? Not a large amount. They had some words, and could not be
satisfied, so they went and brought some people from outside to fight.
6126. Are all these disputes settled by the Loon Tee Tong ? I cannot say they are settled by the Loon
Tee Tong, but by the Loon Tee Tong people.
6127. By the officers of that society ? Tes ; I think so.
6128. How much do the gambling-houses contribute out of the stakes to the Loon Tee Tong ; how much
in the shilling or £ ? I cannot say that.
6129. Tou do not know how much ? No.
6130. Tou know, of course, that they do contribute ? I cannot say that ; I do not know it.
6131. Have you not heard so ? I have heard that there was something.
6132. Have you not heard that the gambling-houses regularly contribute so much to the Loon Tee Tong ?
No ; I have not heard it that.
6133. What societies do they contribute to ? Do you mean the gamblers themselves ?
6134. Tes ? They subscribe 3d. in each £ to a fund which they afterwards divide among themselves.
6135. Is it not a fact that they subscribe that money to defend each other from the police ? I do not
know that.
6136. Why do they subscribe among themselves 3d. in the £ to a fund to be afterwards divided
among themselves ? Because that money belongs to the gambling-house keepers, do you not know ?
6137. No, I do not know ; I want you to tell me — to make it plain ; — what do they apply the fund to ?
Just to divide among themselves.'
6138. But that would be an unnecessary proceeding — to put their own money into a fund to divide
among themselves again ? But sometimes there might be a good business in one house and not so good
a business in another.
6139. Therefore they put it into a common fund ? Tes.
6140. Then I want to know what they do so for — there must be some use for it ? I do not know that.
6141. Will you swear that ? I do not know it.
6142. Have you not heard ? I have not.
6143. Do you not know that it is to pay the expenses incurred by the Loong Tee Tong ?
6144. Do you not know that the money is used to pay the police court fines of your countrymen ? No ;
I do not know that.
6145. Have you ever told any of your countrymen that you knew they used the money to bribe the
police ? I am quite sure I never said anything of the kind.
6146. Would you be surprised to know that it has been alleged that you are conversant with the fact
that the police have been bribed ? I have never heard anything like that among my countrymen.
6147. And you never said so yourself ? No.
6148. Tou are quite certain ? Tes.
6149. That the Lower G eorge-street gambling-houses had " squared " the police ; — did you never say that ?
I never said that myself.
6150. Are you quite sure ? Tes ; quite sure.
6151. Now, tell me how they get the funds for the Loon Tee Tong? They get it from the different
members.
6152. How much? I think they get 5s. from each. Then they make a second call; they sub-
scribe twice.
6153. Who are the officers ? The business people ; Way Kee and Te Sang Loong might have taken
charge of the money. *
6154. Have you any idea how much money there was ? No ; I have no idea.
6155. Do you know Moy Ping ? I do.
6156. Do you think Moy Ping ever bribed the police or made them any presents ? I do not think that.
6157. Tou are often down in Lower George-street, I suppose ? Tes ; very often.
6158. Do you play fan-tan yourself ? I have played, but it is my business to go into these places when-
ever I want to.
6159. I understand. Tou have been in many times, at any rate ? Tes.
6160. Have you ever seen any policemen in there ? I have seen them in these places.
6161. In uniform? Tes.
6162. What did they do when they went in? They went in to have a look round, and turn the Euro-
peans out.
6163. Did you ever know them to arrest anyone there ? I heard of one raid that the police made upon
a gambling-house in Lower George-street.
6164. When was that? Not quite three years ago.
6165. But you have been in a gambling-house since then ? Tes.
6166. And have you seen the police go in and disperse the people ? The police go in, because very often
Europeans are found there, and when the police find them there they turn them out.
6167. Have ycu ever seen the police take the money that has been on the gambling-table ? I have not.
6168. What becomes of the money on the fan-tan table when the police turn all the white men out?
There might not be any money on the table. The Europeans may only go in there to have a sit down
and a smoke and have a yarn.
6169. On the occasions when you went into these houses the Europeans were simply sitting down and
smoking ? Tes.
6170. Now do they not gamble when they go in ? Tes ; they do gamble.
6171.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 155
el£o' Save.y°u not Deen in there when the police have come in and disturbed them gambling ? No. W.
6172. You just now said they did ? No; I said the police came in, and seeing the Europeans there, Pow chee-
just turned them out. ,-* -*■ .*-,
6173. Surely the police would not do that unless they were doing something improper or illegal ? "Whether 12 0ct'' 1891,
they are gambling or not they turn them out.
6174 Is it not a fact that you were present in some of these gambling -houses when the police came in
and the money on the table was taken up ? No, never.
6175. Are you quite sure ? Yes.
6176. But you remembered a little while ago that you were present when the police came in, and they
were disturbed and turned out? No; not while they were gambling. I never was present on any
occasion when the police made a raid on the gambling-houses. Only a couple of times I saw Europeans
turned out and then they were m the shop, where the police could see them from the street, and they
came in and turned them out. There was no money on the table, and no gambling business done then.
6177. Are all these other societies that you have mentioned innocent of the charge of contributing to a
defence fund ? I know nothing about that.
6178. Have you not been charged with any offence by the police? Not I. I do not frequent the gambling-
houses myself I have played tan-tan, but I do not make my living there. I do not frequent them in
the same way that the others do ; but as they are my countrymen I often go in there.
6179. Are you an opium-smoker ? I have smoked opium, but I am not a general smoker.
6180. How many people have you living in your house ? Only myself and my wife. I am living in
bussex-street. There are no other Chinamen in that neighbourhood.
6181. Do you smoke opium at home ? No.
6182. Where do you go to smoke opium ? I go out for it. It is only when I am in the company of my
countrymen that I smoke opium. "
6183. Is it not a fact that you are yourself connected with some of these gambling-houses in Lower
George-street ? No ; I am not, and never was.
6184. Have you not an interest in No. 198, Tiy Wah Tong, Lower George-street ? No.
6185. In no way connected with it ? No. I have never had any interest in or connection with any
gambling-house m Sydney.
6186. Are you in any way whatever connected with the business carried on in No. 198, Lower George-
street ? !N ot in any way.
6187. Who lives there ? Tiy Wah Tong is the name outside the shop. He is no gambler. The gambling
is at the back. s b
6188. What does he do ? It is a chemist's shop, kept by a Chinese doctor.
6189. Do you visit him much ? Tes ; the doctor is my friend.
6190. Do you know Tin Sing, 174, George-street ? I know the people who are living there ; they are
gamblers.
6191. Is he a friend of yours? No ; no friend of mine.
6192. When did you see him last ? A few days ago.
G193. What had you to say to him then ? Nothing particular.
6191. Do you know No. 177, George-street— Eook Wah Tong ? Tes, I do.
6195. What is he ? It is a gambler's shop.
6196. Do you know 179, Lower George-street — Bow Sing Tong ? Tes.
6197. What is that place ? That house is kept by several gamblers.
6198. They are friends of yours, are they not ? No ; they are simply my countrymen. I know them all,
but they are not what I would call my friends.
6199. Tiy Wah Tong is your friend ? Tes.
620Q. Now, is it not a fact that you have had conversations with him about the police and these gambling,
houses, and about this Commission being appointed ? I might have had.
6201. Do you not remember saying that it would be impossible for the Commission to do anything, that
the police were all right ; just think if you did not say that ? No.
6202. Are you quite sure you said nothing of the kind ? Quite sure.
6203. Did not your friend tell you that the keepers of the gambling-houses in Lower George-street made
presents to the police of jewellery, or anything else ? No.
6204. Tou never heard of the police getting anything at all from them in the shape of bribes, or presents
of any kind ? No , I never heard that.
6205. But you conversed with your friend about the Commission ? Tes.
6206. What did you say about it ? I said that the people who kept the gambling-houses would not like
it stopped, but I was sure if the gambling was stopped it would do more good than harm to my countrymen.
6207. Did you not talk about the police not suppressing it ? No ; I said nothing about the police.
6208. Did it never occur to you as a strange thing that the police took no steps to suppress the gambling ?
I did say to my friend that I knew that the Government had heard that the police had. taken bribes from
my countrymen, and I supposed that the police were in a great way about it, if they did not receive any
bribes ; but if they did do anything like that, then of course they knew their own business. I never
knew that the police received anything from my countrymen.
6209. That is not the question ; — did it not occur to you as being strange that the police did not suppress
the gambling in Lower George-street — you have only to say yes or no ? No. No such thing ever arose
in my mind.
6210. What do you mean by that ; — did it not appear strange to you, as a sensible man, that the police
took no steps to put down the gambling in Lower George-street — I must have an answer to that ? Well,
I knew they did try it.
6211. Tell me how many times you have known the police to make raids on the gambling-houses in
Lower George-street during the last three years ? I can only remember three times.
6212. When was the fttst ? When they visited Koong Sun Goon.
6213. How long ago was that ? About three years ago.
6214. When was the second occasion ? When they raided Tong Sing Goon.
6215. And the third case ? Moy Ping.
6216. Did they prosecute anyone on the first occasion that you have mentioned ? Tea,, and they were
committed for trial. 6217.
loti CHINESE aAMDLINU COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
W. 6217. Is it not a fact that some of your friends on that occasion were saved by the Loon Yee Tong ? No.
PowChee. 6218. How do you know ? Because I do not know it myself.
'~T~^,~> 6219. You first said " No " directly to the question 1 put to you, and you must have had a reason for
c ■' saying that; — you must give proper answers to the questions I put to it. Now were not some members
of the Loon Yee Tong prosecuted on that occasion ? Yes ; I think there were.
U220. Was the money found by themselves or by the society ? By themselves I think. I know I was
employed by the defence. It was at the Quarter Sessions.
(3221. Is it not true that in connection with some of those prosecutions you said that Mr. Inspector
Atwill would let the men off easily ? No ; I knew he was a different man altogether from that. I do
not think he is a man to take a bribe.
0222. You know Mr. Atwill well ? I do know him.
6223. "When did you see him last ? Some time ago. I have frequently seen him in the street.
6224. Have you seen him to speak to within the last month ? No.
6225. Have you received any message from him ?
6226. Have none of your countrymen come to you and spoken to you about him ? They might have done
iu regard to some Court cases — I cannot remember.
6227. I suppose Inspector Atwill employs you as interpreter sometimes ? No j he never did.
6228. Do you know any of the police in Lower George-street ? I know a few.
6229. Do you know Sergeant Higgms ? I do not know their names. There is one sergeant I know, and
one constable and detective I know down there.
6230. Will you swear that you are not connected in any way with any of the gambling-houses in Lower
George-street ? Yes ; I will.
6231. And you do not derive any profit from any of them ? No.
6232. Do you know Sam War ? Yes.
6233. Is he not banker for the three or four houses I have mentioned ? I do not know.
6234. Have you had any business transactions with him at all ? Yes, I have.
6235. What have been the nature of those transactions ? Simply, I have gone there to buy things— provisions,
6236. What business does he carry on ? A storekeeper, wholesale and retail, All the wholesale Chinese
stores do a retail trade as well.
6237. Does he sell opium ? Y'es.
6238. In small quantities ? That I do not know.
6239. Have you not bought opium from him in small quantities ? No, I have never done that,
6240. If you have not bought it there where do you get your opium from ? I bought it in tins,
I have not smoked for a long time.
6241. Where do you keep the opium ? At home.
6242. Did you not tell me a little while ago that you do not smoke at home ? I did not smoke at home,
6243. Then what did you keep the opium at home for ? I could not carry it about with me, I have not
smoked for a loDg time.
6244. Now did you not buy small quantities of the drug in Sam War's when you were smoking ? No, I
have bought small quantities, but not in Sam War's.
6245. You have only been married once out here, you say ? Yes.
6246. Have you always lived with your wife ? No, 1 parted with her six years ago, or more.
6247. W here is she now ? I do not kuow.
6248. You are living with a woman now? Ye*.
6249 How long have you been living with her ? For three years.
6250. Are you married to her ? No.
6251. Mr. McKillop.~\ Before you came to New South Wales, where did you reside ? I have never lived
in any other colony. I visited Brisbane once.
6252. Were you educated in English in your own country ? Yes, in Hong Kong.
62E3. Were you ever in business ? I was.
6254. In what kind of business ? Storekceping.
6255. Were was your business ? In Cooma. Jt only lasted a few months. I also kept a small grocery
store in the place where I am living now. I only gave it up a few months ago.
6256. Mr. Hawthorne.'] How long ago is it since you were in Cooma ? Ten years ago.
6257. Mr. McKillop.~] What business were you in there ? Agent storekeeper.
6258. Were you in a large way of business ? No ; I was employed by Chen Ah Tik.
6259. It wras not your own business ? No.
6260. Had you not a business in Sydney ? No.
6261. Were you not set up by the respectable Chinese merchants ? No.
6262. Nor by the Chinese gambling-house keepers ? No.
6263. Are you quite sure of that ? Yes.
6264. How do you gain a living at the present time ? I earn a good deal by interpreting. That alcne
would pay all my expenses. And I kept a night school until a fortnight ago.
6265. You found that a bad spec ? No, I got tired of it. I made an average of 30s. a week by the
school
6266. What do your earnings as an interpreter average ? Not less than £200 a year.
6267. Do you act as interpreter for the Government ? Occasionally, when they require me.
6268. Who engages you when you interpret for the Government ? I have been employed by the Sergeant
ot Police at Penrith. He sent one of my countrymen to Sydney to engage the services of an interpreter.
6269. Were you ever engaged in Sydney. Yes.
6270. Who engaged you then ? The Inspector-General of Police.
6271. Did he send for you privately ? No, I was recommended by Chen Ah Tik.
6272. Have you been engaged by anybody else ? I have been employed by the police several times down
George-street way, but 1 cannot remember the names ; and there was nothing particular about it ; they
simply said, " Come along, we want you."
6273. You stated distincily that you had been engaged very often by certain policemen down in that district?
I do not say that 1 have been engaged very frequently in interpreting business ; not by the police so very
often, but by the public, j
6274.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 157
6274. But you hare been engaged by certain police officers in that district? Not lately, but during the W.
last two years I may have been. 1>0w chee-
6275. In that district — Lower George-street ? Yes. s-^-*^—^
6276. "Who generally engaged you— Inspector Atwill ? No, he never did 12 0ct ' 1891-
6277. Sergeant Macintosh ? No.
6278. Constable Beadman ? No. I know him. He never engaged mo.
0279. "Were you ever in company with him ? Yes.
6280. Did you ever make a present to him ? No.
6281. Did you ever see him receive a present ? No.
6282. Did he ever talk to you about the Chinese gambling-dens ? Yes.
6283. What did he say to you ? He complained to me about it being said that the police received presents.
He said to me, '• You are a Chinese, and know all about the business of the Chinese, and you know whether
they have given me presents." That was the complaint he made to me.
6284. What did you say to that ? I said there were some bad people among my countrymen, who were
jealous of each other, and would make up lies to tell.
6285. "Were you greatly shocked to hear of such a charge being made against Beadman ? No, I do not
say I was shocked.
6286. You think it quite possible that bribes might have been received ? It is possible— anything is
possible. I have known magistrates to receive bribes.
6287. In this country ? No, not in this countrv. In China I knew that. Anybody might take a bribe
who liked to risk it.
6288. "Were you ever insolvent ? No.
6289. How many white women have you lived-with since you have been in this Colony ? Two— my wife
whom I parted with, and the woman I am living with now. I found I was not satisfied with my wife,
and as I could not make better terms with her we parted.
6290. "Was she given to opium-smoking ? No. I have heard she does now, but she did not when with
me.
6291. Is it not a fact that she knocks about Goulburn and Sussex Btreets now ? Yes ; Bince we parted.
6292. Have you seen her lately? No, not for two and a half years.
6293. Is she in gaol now ? I heard she was for one month.
6294. How long ago is that ? Some twelve months ago.
6295. Do you not know as a positive fact that she is out of gaol now, and living in adultery with certain
of your countrymen ? No ; 1 do not like to know. I do not inquire anything about her. I do not keep
such things in mind.
6296. Have you not been told by any of your countrymen ? No ; my friends would not like to tell me
things like that.
6297. Are you married to the woman you are now living with ? No.
6298. Is she a respectable woman ? Yes.
6299. "Where was she employed when she went to live with you ? In some public-house.
6300. Do you know the public-house ? No.
6301. Do you not know the name of it ? No. She did not tell me where she was employed. She was
living with her mother at that time.
6302. "Where did you become acquainted with her — in the public-house ? No ; through an intimate
friend.
6303. "Was the intimate friend a countryman of yours ? No ; a countryman's wife — a European.
6304. "What is her name ? Mrs. King.
6305. Is Mr. King a Chinaman ? Yes.
6306. "Where does he reside? He is dead, and she is married again.
6307. You received an introduction to the woman you are living with through this Mrs. King? Yes.
6308. "Where did the introduction take place ? I think it was in some store down Lower George-street.
6309. Some Chinaman's store ? Yes. Mrs, King was in company with my present wife at the time.
6310. Did you ever see your present wife previous to this introduction you spoke of ? No.
6311. Did you ask this Mrs. King, the wife of your Chinese friend, to get you a nice young girl ? No.
6312. "Was it quite by accident that you came on the scene in this store in Lower George-street, or was
it by arrangement ? It was by accident. I was introduced to her, and made her acquaintance in that
way.
63i3. Did you live with her straight away, as man and wife ? No. I was acquainted with her nearly
twelve months before that.
6314. "What is your reason for not marrying her ? Because I cannot.
6315. Why cannot you marry her ? I have been married once already.
6316. It is against the law of the country ? Yes.
6317. Not in China ? No ; but in this country it is.
6318. You know well that your own wife has been living in adultery ? Yes.
6319. Is it not possible to free yourself from her ? It is quite possible, if I liked to apply to the law,
aud get a divorce.
6320. Do you not think it would be very sensible for you to do so, and make this woman you are living
with your wife ? Yes ; but what I am doing is quite respectable in my race, and many gentlemen would
do the same in my circumstances.
6321. Are there any other occupants of your house beside yourself ? No. After I close'd the shop I let
it to a fruiterer, and he kept it open for a few months only. I then let it to another party, who ran
what he called " The International Importing Company" ; but he left in a few weeks time.
6322. What did the Company import? Nothing ; it was a fraud.
6323. How many rooms are there in your house ? There are two rooms downstairs, the shop and a
sitting room ; upstairs, a front bedroom and a back room that was formerly used as a servant's room.
That room is now vacant.
6324. Have you had any lodgers there since you have lived in that house? Yes ; I had three ladies, a
mother and two daughters.
6325. Were they respectable ? Yes. ThSy came down from the country, and they said they could not
afford to go to large expense. 6326.
158 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EYIDENCE.
^V. 6326. "Was it a furnished room ? Not properly furnished, just a bed, and I supplied them with blankets.
PowChee. 5327. What rent do you pay ? I pay £1 a week. When 1 had the shop going it was 25s., but when I
lo^f^iooi 8ave UP business the landlord reduced it to £1.
12 uct., 18J1. G328 who is your landlord p Mr Doyle, solicitor, Elizabeth-street.
6329. Did you say you had at one time held some office in the Loon Tee Tong? No; in the Bow On
Tong— that is a different district altogether. They would not admit me to the Loon Yee Tong if I were
to pay £100.
6330. Did you ever attend one of their meetings ? No.
6331. Do you remember a difficulty occurring amongst the members of the Loon Tee Tong concerning a
large sum of money ? No.
6332. Tou do not remember anything about that ? No.
6333. Do you remember a row or riot taking place in Lower George- street, when a half-caste Chinese
named "William Riley was assaulted ? No.
6334. Do you know of a row taking place there at any time, when a Chinaman was beaten for giving
information to the police ? No ; at that time I was not in Sydney. I came to Sydney in 1884.
6335. Do you know of any case where one of your countrymen was beaten for giving certain information to
the police ? I heard of one lately. A man told me that he gave the police certain information, for them to
make a raid upon a gambling-house in Newcastle, and — I forget how the case resulted— he got a beating.
That man is a gambler himself.
6336. What is his name ? "Wong Sing.
6337. Is he at present in Sydney ? I do not know.
6338. "Was he beaten very much ? He did not show any marks.
6339. Do you know Sun Sam Kee? I do.
6340. "Where does he reside ? In George-street North.
6341. Do they carry on a legitimate business there ? I think so.
6342. Is not gambling carried on there to a large extent ? I have not been there for some twelve months.
6343. At the time that you used to go there, was gambling carried on to a large extent ? I cannot say a
large extent, but I know it was carried on.
6341. "Who carries on the firm of Sun Sam Kee ? A few of them. Sun Sam Kee has gone home to
China.
6345. How many are in the firm ? It is very hard for me to tell other people's business — it is not a nice
thing.
6346. I want you to tell the Commission who the persons are that comprise the firm of Sun Sam Kee,
and I know you can tell if you will ? The masters are Lee Jue Kum, Lee Hang Kee, Ching Quong
Ling, and Sam Tin.
6347. "Who is manager ? Lee Jue Kum ; but he has gone home to China, and left his nephew to take
charge of his business.
6348. "What is the name of Lee Jue Kum's nephew ? Lum Hing ; but they are all equal. "When there
is any business to be done they all consult together.
6349. They are free agents, to do what they like ? Yes.
6350. If anyone has stated that he is manager of the firm then that is not correct ? It might be so, that
one has more power than the other, but to my idea they are all about equal.
6351. Do they do a legitimate business ? They have some customers from New Zealand who come and
stop there.
6352. "What, is it a common boarding-house ? They board no one.
6353. They do not do anything in the grocery line ? No.
6354. Then it is a common lodging-house — a free and easy, is that it?
6355. And gamble to their heart's content, I suppose ? Yes ; I think so.
6356. Tou stated, when you were being examined by the President, that you have gambled yourself.
Have you ever lost a large sum of money ? No ; I do not gamble now. The largest sum of money I
ever lost was £20.
6357. Have you ever won a large sum of money ? No.
6358. "While you have been gambling have you been a loser or a gainer in the long run? I have been
a loser.
6359. Are you in partnership with any of the gambling-houses in the city or suburbs ? No.
6360. Are you sure ? Quite sure.
6361. Did you at any time invite Robert Lee Kam to attend a meeting of your countrymen ? No.
6362. For the purpose of collecting money to fight the Government? No ; never.
6363. Tou are quite sure r Tes.
6364. "Will you swear that ? Tes; positively.
6365. Is it not a fact that some of your countrymen after giving evidence here have come to you and
talked the whole matter over? I had a conversation with Tung Tow, who was here last Friday.
6366. "Who else — Way Kee, or his nephew ? No.
6367. Tou have not had any conversation with any other of your countrymen ? No.
0368. Tou are quite positive ? Tes ; I think I had a few words with Wong Lee Kum.
6369. What was that about ? I said you have been to the Commission, and he said, yes, and then he told
me something. I do not remember what.
6370. What was that something — you must remember ? He said that he asked Mr. Quong Tart certain
things, and he did not answer him.
6371. I want to know what he said to you — did he tell you to ask the question again when you came
here ? No. He said he asked Mr. Quong Tart about the time when he acted for the Chinese who were
not allowed to land here — about the expenses — and Mr. Tart would not answer him. That is all.
6372. Did he not say something about £100 ; — remember you are on your oath ? No.
6373. Did he not tell you that Mr. Quong Tart got £100 from the Government to send the Chinamen
away, that he did not send them away, and that he and his partner stuck to the £100 ? No ; he did not
tell me that.
6374. Now be very careful? He did not say a word of £100 ; he said the sum was £1,200. It was to
send^spme Chinamen away back to China. That was the. indemnity paid by the Government to the China-
men,'because they were not allowed to land. 6375.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 159
6375. And what did he say about this £1,200? He told me he asked Mr. Quong Tart what was done W.
with the money ; that was all. Po^ Chee.
6376. Did he say he asked Mr. Quong Tart if he had stuck to the money or not ? I do not think he told ^r^T^-,
me that. • 12 Oct., 1891.
6377. Do you object to gambling yourself ? I do.
6378. Strongly ? Yes, strongly.
6379. And you would like to see it put down ? Yes, from my heart. It is a bad thing for the people.
T^e S?y b f a few who Set a liyinS by if;> but it; damages the poor people very much.
6380. W ould you assist in any effort to put it down ? Yes.
6381. Have you ever done so hitherto ? No.
6^-82' -u^y did Jou n?* do so since you knew it was wrong ? It is like this : I know gambling is a bad
thing, but I do not thmk any good man would go to the authorities, and give information against those
who were gambling ; I do not believe in that. If any one was appointed to act on behalf of the Crown,
that is a different thing altogether.
6383. Suppose you saw a woman being beaten to death would you not step in and inform the authorities ?
I would so.
6384. That is because you consider it would be wrong ? Yes.
6385. And you consider gambling wrong also, I suppose ? Yes.
6386. Then why would you not inform on the gamblers ? I would like to stop it, but
6387. Is it not because you are afraid of your life ? No ; I have a little more- courage than that. But
the thing stands like this : If I did such a thing I would be going against my countrymen, and I would
not like to do it.
6388. I suppose their hand would be against you— you would be regarded as an outcast ? I would be
looked upon as being against them, and they would not trust me in anyway, and I have to earn my living
among my countrymen.
6389. But you say the public support you in earning your living, and therefore is it not your duty to
suppress any evils that exist in the community ? It is quite true, but most of my countrymen think
differently.
6390. In fact you have not that amount of moral courage ? No.
6391 . Do you remember the night that this Commission paid a visit to Lower George-street ? Yes, I
remember the occasion. I was teaching a school at the time.
6392. Where were you on that occasion? In Queen-street.
6393. That is off George-street ? Yes ; at the back of George-street.
6394. Did you hear that the Commissioners were to pay a visit to Lower George-street ? No.
6395. You did not hear that previously ? No ; only at the time the Commissioners were passing, the
people where I was informed me that the Commissioners were with Mr. Quong Tart visiting the Chinese
houses in Lower George-street.
6396. You heard it at your school that night ? Yes.
6397. Do men frequent your school ? Yes, all grown up people.
6398. Is there any opium-smoking carried on there ? No.
6399. It was a strictly moral place ? It was not to say very strict. They came there to learn, that is all.
6400. But nothing indecent was carried on there ? No.
6401. Do you remember the Commission paying a visit to Goulburn-street ? No, I do not remember that ;
but I know the Commission did go to Goulburn-street.
[The further examination of this witness was postponed till next sitting day.]
WEDNESDAY, 14 OCTOBER, "1801.
tyuesent:—
The Mayor oe Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
ERANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Peesident.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Wm. Pow Chee further examined : —
6402. Mr. McKillop.] What rent do you pay for the house you live in ? £1 a week. I paid 25s. before, w.
but the rent was lowered. P°w Chee,
6103. Do you allow any gambling on your premises ? No, I never have at any time. /— — A— s
6404. Have you had any conversation with Long Pen with regard to this Commission ? No. 14 Oct-, 1891.
6405. Not at any time ? No.
6406. Have you heard him say anything in your hearing as to what he intended doing with members of
this Commission, more particularly with Mr. Quong Tart ? No ; I had no conversation with him what-
ever.
6407. Are you allowed a certain percentage commission by the keepers of some of these gambling-houses?
No, sir.
6408. They do not give you any commission ? No, never.
6409. Are you quite sure ? Yes ; I have never received anything from them.
6410. Not from Sam Kee? No, not from any of them. I have no interest whatever in the gambling-
houses.
6411. Have you lived in Lower George-street at any time since you have been in Sydney ? Not in
George-street. I lived in Harrington-street. When I first went to that end of the town I lived in Little
Essex-street, and kept a school there. I remained there for nearly one year, when I removed to
Harrington-street, to a bigger house, and also kept a school there.
6412. Did you at any time, when you lived in the direction of the Rocks, keep a brothel ? No. ^_
6413. Were you ever connected with a house kept for immoral purposes ? No, never. \ **
6414. Do you know Sergeant Higgins ? Yes.
6415. Do you know if at any time he received a bribe or present of any kind ? No. 6416.
14 Oct., 1891.
160 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
w- 6416. Are you sure ? Quite sure.
Pow Chee. 6417. Do you know Constable Adair ? I do not knew him. I know nearly every one of them by sight.
I can tell what station they belong to.
6118. Do yon know anything about the Chinese being brought to this country under agreement ; — do
they come under a certain agreement to the merchants here to work the gardens, &c. ? I think not many.
I do not know of more than forty of my countrymen who have been sent out by the merchants, or any
people of substantial position.
U419. Are they brought out under a special agreement from China ? Some of them 1 know have been.
6420. In the cases you know of, for what length of time did they sign, do you know ? I know Dr. On
Lee engaged, I think, thirty from China, and every one of them signed an agreement for a term of five
years.
0421. "What remuneration (wages) were they to receive ? I was acting as interpreter for the employees,
but they showed me no agreement. They said they agreed to come here to get fair wages.
6422. What were the wages ? I do not know what the agreement was, but they signed for £1 a week.
6123. Was that £1 a week and found ? Tes ; they were to live in the garden.
6424. Did they win the action against Dr. On Lee ? No.
6425. And you did not see any agreement ? No.
6426. Was no agreement produced iu Court ? No.
6427. Was it owing to that that they lost the case ? I think the Judge did not believe the employer ever
agreed to give such good wages, because some of the witnesses said that the Chinese working class in
their own country received low wages, and it was not likely that Dr. On Lee would engage the men at
such a rate.
C428. What was your opinion — did you think the wages were £1 per week ? They told me so.
61.29. What did Dr. On Lee say he had agreed to pay them ? He said he agreed to pay them 60 dollars
a year, and that included everything.
6430. Did it include clothing and all ? No ; they had to find their own clothing.
6431. Do you know of any other cases where the Chinese merchants in Lower George-street or Goulburn-
street have brought Chinamen to this country under a similar agreement ? I know a couple, but I
cannot think of their names now. They brought out some men, but they did not impose upon them as
Dr. On Lee did. They let them do as they liked.
6432. What wages did they pay them ? I think they paid them 100 dollars a year, and everything
found.
6133. Are there a great number of Chinamen brought here under similar agreements now ? I do not
think so. I do not know of any.
0434. I suppose if there were such cases the person or persons bringing them here would have to pay
the poll-tax ? Tes ; Dr. On Lee did.
6435. Did he deduct that amount from the wages of these men during the course of the five years for
which they were engaged ? Tes ; he 'did.
6436. I suppose the poll-tax was deducted also in other cases where the men were brought out under
agreement? I do not know the terms of any others.
6437. But you are certain of the terms in the case of Dr. On Lee ? Tes.
6138. Have you ever travelled about Botany and Waterloo, and North Shore ? Tes.
6439. Is there a great deal of gambling carried on in those places ? Not on the North Shore.
6440. In Botany ? In Waterloo there is, but not in Botany. I only know one in Botany.
6441. Can you give us the name of that one ? I forget the name. It is next door "to the Chinese
Church.
6412. A Christian Church ? Tes.
6443. Have you ever been up country in this Colony ? Tes,
6144. In what part ? I havo been in Narrandera. I was in the township— not in tho part where the
Chinese live ; and I havo been in Wagga Wagga.
6145. Mr, Hawthorne.'] When you were in Narrandera did you not get down to the Chinese camp, close
by the river ? No ; I was in a store there, and it was in the township.
6446. AVere you not tempted, out of curiosity, to visit the Chinese quarters, the same as Europeans do
there P No ; I have no curiosity, because I understand all about their ways.
6147. Is there not a great amount of gambling carried on in the Chinese camp at Narrandera? I am
under the impression there is.
6448. Tou say you were in Wagga Wagga; — are there a large number of Chinese there? Not very
large I think. I stayed there only two days.
6449. Did you ever stop for any considerable length of time in any of the inland towns of this Colony ?
I was in Tingha for twenty-two months.
6450. There are a number of your countrymen there ? Tes.
6451. They are working in the mines there ? Tes.
6452. How long ago is it since you were there ? About 1883.
6453. Used there to be a great deal of gambling going on when you were in Tingha ? I knew three
houses there.
6454. Were they large establishments ? They were large huts— about as large as a medium sized
house.
6455. Did the Europeans go there to gamble ? No.
6456. Were all the gamblers Chinamen ? Tes.
6457. Were there many white women there mixing with the Chinese ? No ; at that time I knew only
one bad woman there.
6458. Were there any white women married to Chinamen ? There were two, including a half-caste.
6459. Did they hive in the camp ? No ; they lived with respectable Chinese.
6460. Do you know a person named G-ouldtown ? I do.
6461. How long have you known him ? I have known him, I think, about two years,
6462. What do you know of him ? I know he acts in cases for the Chinamen. "
6463. Do you know him to be a respectable man ? He appears to me to be respectable-
6464. At any time since you have known him has he done anything to your knowledge that would bring
discredit on him ? I do not know anything like that, 6465.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
■101
6465. You do not know anything against his character ? The only thing I know against his character is W.
his living in the gambling-houses. PowGhee.
6466. He used to live in the gambling-houses ? Yes. 14 o fc 1891
6467. Did he work on commission for the gambling-houses, or was he a partner in any of them ? I think "'
he was.
6468. Can you tell me the name of any firm in which he was a partner ? I cannot swear that he was a
partner, but that was my opinion. I cannot swear positively that he was.
6469. Was he held in high, estimation and respect by the respectable Chinese in Lower George-street and
other parts of the city ; that is, did he visit their houses, and associate with them ? Yes.
6470. Now, tell me the name of any partner, or supposed partner, of Mr. G-ouldtown ;— you must know
the house he used to reside in ? Yes ; I used to visit there.
647L. Well what house did he reside in ? One house I know is Lee On's, and he used to live upstairs.
6472. Was it Goulburn-street ? Yes.
6473. And he lived there, you say ? Yes ; he told me he had a share in it.
6474. Do you know if he has still got a share in that house ? Most likely.
6475. Do you know where G-ouldtown is at present? No. I did inquire among his own countrymen.
He is of a different district to me. I said, " Where has Mr. G-ouldtown gone to." Some of them said,
" He has cleared away on account of this gambling affair." One friend of his told me that he did not
believe Gouldtown had cleared away on that account, and said he had received a letter from him.
0476. What is that man's name ? I forget just now.
6477. Where does he live ? In Goulburn-street.
6478. What is the number of the house ? I do npt remember the number.
6479. Does he live at Lee On's ? I suppose so.
6480. You are supposed to tell us all you know about this man? I do not like to tell other people's
business ; it is not a nice thing to do.
6481. But it is your duty to assist this Commission in every way possible, in justice to all parties ; — what
did this man tell you ? He said that Gouldtown was to come down in a week's time.
6482. How long is it since you had this conversation ? A couple of weeks ago.
6483. Have you seen or spoken to the person who told you that since ? I might have seen him, but I do
not remember.
6484. Did you have any conversation with him after that ? No.
6485. Have you seen Mr. Gouldtown in Sydney since that ? No.
6486. Have you any idea where he is ? I heard that he had been at Emmaville, and I heard, also, that
he had been in Brisbane.
6487. Is it a fact that you have great influence with those of your countrymen who hail from your own
part of China? No ; I wish I had. I should be doing a good business for myself if I had influence with
them.
6488. Mr. Abigail.'] Who is the most influential Chinaman of your class in Sydney ? I think they are
very nearly all alike — one would not be ruled over by another.
6489. What I mean is, do they not look up to one individual among them to counsel or advise them when
they are in difficulties ? They generally go to someone who understands English.
6490. Do they not come to you ? Some of them do in regard to cases of difficulty.
6491. Is there any other Chinaman who understands English to whom they go for advice — those of your
class, or " district," I am now referring to more particularly ? There are a couple I know who speak
English. It is not likely they would come to me, you know.
6492. Why not? Well they come to me for any advice in matters of law that I understand, but they
go to others for other things.
6493. If they got into any difficulty — suppose, for example, they were summoned by the police, would
they not come to you ? Some of them would.
6494. Have any of them come to you lately to ask your advice on any matter ? I do not remember any
particular case lately— only one in Waterloo.
6495. When was that? It is a few months ago. They were fined, and then they came to me. They
asked me was it a fair thing the way the police acted, and I said no, it was not fair.
6496. Where did the unfairness come in — were they taken up for gambling contrary to the law? In the
matter of law the police were right, but in one particular point they were not. They swore there were
three different gamblers connected with the house, but that was impossible. There were only two — one
was the banker and the other the croupier. There could not be three.
6497. Was not the third man the keeper of the house, and did they not know that he was aware gambling
was carried on ? I did not find out that much from the person who consulted me. When he got my
opinion he went back to his own people, and they brought the case into court again to be tried.
6498. Did you advise them to appeal against the conviction ? I did.
6499. Did they appeal ? They brought the case on again to be tried.
650o! Let us have it perfectly clear ; they were proceeded against in the Court for gambling ? Yes.
6501. And they were convicted and fined. ? Yes.
6502. Then how did the case come before the court again ? The magistrate agreed to reopen the case
for them, .
6503. They applied for a rehearing after the fine was imposed ? Yes.
6504. How long ago was that? About ten weeks, I think.
6505. Do you know the names of the parties in that case ? I do not.
6506. What is the name of the party who came to consult you ? I do not know his name, but I can find
out if you want it.
6507. Yes, it will be as well to have his name. The case was reported in the Press, I suppose ? Yes, I
think so. They were acquitted after all.
6508. You are making a living as an interpreter ? Yes.
6509. When did you have your last case ? The last case I had was in the Criminal Court.
6510. When was that ? Last week.
6511. How many have you had during the last six months ? I have had, I think, close on twenty cases
during the last six months.
5 272— X 6512.
162 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
"^ 6512. What remuneration do you receive for your services ? It depends upon the distance I have to
*ow . travel and the length of time occupied by the case. I got £90 for one journey, but that was not during
i /n*"*"T"<vi *^e ^aS* S'X months.
14 Oct., 1891. 6513 where was that ? In Queensland ; it was a case in which one of my countrymen was supposed
to have been murdered by others.
6514. In Sydney have you acted as interpreter in any of the gambling cases tried in the courts here ? I
have.
6515. When did you appear ? I had work at the Quarter Sessions some time ago.
6516. Who employed you? There were two cases. I was for the defendants.
6517. Tou appeared for the gamblers ? Yes.
G518. What do they pay you when you appear for them generally ? In the higher court, if it is an
important case — that is, a long case — they pay me £5 5s. for the day's work ; that is at the Quarter
Sessions.
6519. Have you been employed by the Government ? Yes.
6520. That is for the police'? Yes.
6521. In connection with gambling cases ? Not in the gambling cases for the Government.
6522. In gambling cases you were not employed by the Government ? No.
6523. So that in all gambling cases you appeared for the gamblers ? Not in all cases. They do not
always employ me.
6524. In all cases of gambling where you have been engaged it has been for the defendants ? Yes.
6525. Are you not a member of a syndicate — a company of Chinese running some of these gambling-
houses at the present time — now, be careful ? No, sir.
6526. Yoii are sure ? I am quite sure.
6527. How long have you ceased to be a member? I never was connected with the gambling-houses.
6528. You have never received any of the profits arising out of them? No. Whenever! have gone
into these places and gambled I have mostly lost.
6529. Then you do go into these places to gamble now? Now and then I do.
6530. Occasionally? Yes.
6531. Even right up to the present time ? Yes.
6532. Do you receive a general retainer from these gambling-houses — that is, do they contribute a
certain sum of money to pay you to advise them in any difficulties that may arise in connection with their
business ? No.
G533. You have a tolerably intimate knowledge of what is going on in Lower George-street at the present
time ? Yes ; I know a good deal.
6534. You know that a number of gambling-houses are earrried on down there ? Yes.
6535. And that European workmen and others frequent them in considerable numbers ? In most of the
houses only the Chinese gamble, but in others all take part.
6536. And is all this being carried on down there now? During the last two months they do not appear
to have done much business, and some of them have given up.
6537. The trade has fallen off during the last two months ? Yes.
6538. And some have given up their places of business altogether ? Yes.
6539. Tell us how many ? Some have given up, and others have commenced again.
6540. Do you know of any of your countrymen having made large sums of money out of gambling, and
gone home to China ? I have heard of it.
6541. Have you never heard of the police being bribed by some of these gambling-house keepers ? No.
6542. Have you not heard of them receiving even a present ? I have heard of it as a rumour — people
talking.
6543. Have you never heard of a Chinese banker at one of these places giving so much to one of the
police to square him ? It is not likely that they would tell me.
6544. They would not tell you, but you think it is quite possible that it is done ; — is that it ? I know
nothing like that. I have no interest in those houses, and if they did anything of the kind they would
not tell me.
6545. I suppose you talk with your countrymen about the affairs going on down there ? I never heard
anything of that kind there.
6546. Have you never heard that there are societies of Chinese in Sydney who undertake the punishment
of such of their own countrymen as give evidence against them ? I am not quite sure I understand
your question.
6547. Suppose a Chinaman Was taken up for gambling, and one of his countrymen was called upon and
gave evidence against him, would they not take the first opportunity to pay him out for it — to beat him
for giving evidence against the gamblers ;— have you not known of a case like that ? I believe that has
been done.
6548. In your own mind, I understand, you are opposed to gambling? I am.
6549. And opium-smoking ? Opium-smoking is a very bad thing, of coarse. I hope it will be stopped
in China if there is any chance at all.
6550. You think it is highly injurious to those who indulge in it ? Yes ; very.
6551. Do you consider the sanitary condition of these gambling-houses good? It appears very fair to
me compared to the places of the same class of Europeans.
6552. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Do you know Ung Quong ? I do.
6553. Have you been a partner of his in any gambling concern ? No ; I never was a partner of anybody
connected with a gambling establishment.
6554. Were you never a partner in the firm of Ko Lee ? I do not know anybody of that name.
6555. Were you never in partnership with any firm that carried on gambling ? Never. I never had any
interest whatever in a gambling-house.
6556. Not the slightest interest whatever ? No.
6557. Will you swear that? Yes; I will swear I never had any interest or was concerned in any
partnership of a Chinese gambling-house in Sydney or any other part of New South Wales.
6558. And, therefore, if any witness has sworn that you were a partner in a gambling concern that
witness has perjured himself ? He has.
6559. You are prepared to swear that ? Yes ; I am. 6560.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 163
6560. That you have never at any time been a partner in a gambling concern ? Tes ; it is quite untrue W.
if any one has stated that. I have never been connected with one in any part of the Colony. Pow 0hoe-
6561. Were you connected with gambling previous to coming here ? No ; 1 never entered a gambling- ,/TTO,
house before 1 came to Sydney. During the time I was iu the country I was Kreatlv against gambling. U 0ct' 189h
I did all I could against it. J t, . b b b
6562. You were strongly opposed to gambling ? I was.
6563. But since you have come to Sydney you have taken to gambling ? Yes ; I have mixed up with the
gamblers. x
6564. You stated just now, in reply to one of the Commission, that you were very much opposed to
gambling ? 1 es. J Ll
0565. And yet you say you have gone into those places and gambled? It is like this: When I came
down from the country I had not many friends in the city, and those who knew me came from the country
and were gamblers. Those are the people I went to visit.
6566. Had you nowhere else to meet your friends— nowhere but the gambling-dens ? No. If I did not
go into the gambling-houses to see my friends I would not have more than four or five places to go to,
and most of these being respectable business houses I could not expect to be much there, because I would
be in their way.
6567. Do you mean to say that there are not more than five houses iu Sydney occupied by Chinese that
are free from gambling ? No ; what I mean is, that if I did not go into the gambling-houses I would not
have more than five houses that I could visit, because there are not more than five among my friends that
are not gambling-places.
6568. All the other friends of yours except about five are engaged in the trade of gambling ? Yes.
6569. But there are many Chinese houses in Sydney where gambling is not carried on ? Yes ; many of them.
6570. Have you lived for long in any of the country districts of New South Wales ? I have lived
in Tingha.
6571. How long did you live there ? From twenty to twenty-two months.
6572. What business were you engaged in there? I was an interpreter. I also kept a school there.
6573. Had you a large connection there ? Yes ; at that time the Government called upon mo in almost
every case ; there were not many interpreters there at that time.
6574. At the time you were resident in Tingha you were almost entirely occupied as a Government
interpreter ? Yes, and also for my countrymen ; I used to be in most of the cases.
6575. Did you engage in gambling in Tingha ? No, sir.
6576. Did you not play fan-tan there ? No.
6577. Have you lived in any other settlement besides Tingha ? Yes ; I was at Skeleton Creek, 8 miles
from Glen Innes.
6578. Are there many Chinese there ? At that time there were over 200.
6579. They were chiefly engaged in mining, I suppose ? Yes.
6580. Which is the largest Chinese settlement in New South Wales iu your experience? Tingha is,
I think.
6581. Is it larger than Emmaville ? Not much larger, but it is larger.
6582. I suppose you make a tolerably good living out of the fees you charge your countrymen ? I do.
6583. Do you ever tender advice to them to knock off the habit of gambling ? I have done so. I remember
there was one came to me about a gambling affair, and I said to him, " You are in difficulties ; why do
you not give it up, and the people cannot bother you any more."
6584. How is it that the police in Sydney always pass you over when they have any gambling cases on
hand in which your countrymen are concerned ? Because there is one called Ah Chong who is recognised
to be a Government interpreter, and they alway call upon him.
6585. But you say they have engaged you in other cases ? Yes ; when the regular interpreters are
engaged in some other way they have to employ me.
6586. I suppose you learnt English in Hongkong before you came out here ? Yes.
6587. Have you seen any of the police to have a conversation with them since you were summoned to
give evidence on this Commission ? No ; I have seen many of them in the streets, but have had no
conversation with them.
6588. Mr. Abigail.'] Take this photograph, and tell us what is the name on the front of the shop ? It is
Pun Num.
6589. Eead the Chinese notice on white paper there ? It means " day and night fan- tan " ; and also
" change to be delivered after the gambling is finished."
6590. Mr. Hawthorne. ,] That is the profits of the game are to be handed over immediately the game is
concluded ? Yes.
6591. What is the meaning of the other notice on the left side ? It says, " fan-tan on the present day."
6592. Mr. Abigail] That is a daily notice? Yes ; the next one is " cash transactions."
6593. What does that means ? It means that when the people win the money they can have the cash at
once. It means cash for both sides.
6594. Look at the notices on the other photograph — what is the name ? Tin Sing ; that is the same as
the others. And this [referring to a small shop in the same neighbourhood] is the same.
6595. Have you noticed these white paper notices in other places in Lower George-street, and in Goul-
burn-street, and Campbell-street ? Yes.
6596. And have they been exhibited there for some considerable time ? Yes ; I think so.
6597. Anyone passing up and down the streets could see them, and if they were curious enough could
get an explanation of their meaning — it would not be very secret, I mean ? Of course it is no secret to
the Chinese themselves.
6598. Do you think the people who carry on these gambling-houses know they are breaking the law ? I
think they ought to know that. You must know all the gamblers are not bad characters. A good man
might gamble. In the city of Canton fan-tan is a legal game at the present time ; and about twenty
years ago it was a legal game in Hongkong.
6599. Do you know that the keepers of these gambling-houses take great precautious to prevent the
police going in to see what they are doing ; — that they have a number of doors securely barred, and
so forth ? Yes.
6600. You know that it is so ? Yes ; I know they try to prevent the police going in. 6601.
161
CHINESE C1AMBLIXU COMMISSION — MIS I'TES Or EVIDENCE.
^ ■ G601. That is clear evidence that they know they are breaking the law ? Tcs.
J^^f' 6602. Mr. Quong Tart.] I suppose you know what this Commission has been appointed for ? Yes ; I
l4 Oct 1891 un(lerstand the meaning of it.
' 6603. The European population in George-street have been complaining to the Government of the
gambling-houses in that locality, and of the bad sanitary state of the Chinese dwellings. Tell me how-
many fan-tan houses there are in Lower George-street ? More than a dozen, I think.
6604. Mr. McKillop.] Are you sure there are not more than twenty ? There might be.
6605. Mr. Quong Tart.] "Which is the nearer — one dozen, or twenty ? Nearer twenty I should say.
6606. Are the gambling-houses visited both by Europeans and Chinese ? I do not think there are any
where they are mixed up together. The fan-tan houses must be kept by Chinese. "Where the Europeans
are allowed to go in of course they are mixed up. In some houses where the Europeans play they do
not admit the Chinese — they have another room or a separate table.
6607. Is Moy Ping's place larger than Sun "Sam Kee's? I do not think so. Moy Ping may have a good
number of gamblers going in there, but they are all Europeans there.
6608. In Moy Ping's ? Yes.
6609. What about Sun Sam Kee's ? All Europeans there too. There might be some Chinese coming
from New Zealand whom they would allow to have a few games.
6610. Are there any other Chinese gambling-houses where they have only European customers ? There
were a good few a couple of months ago, but during the last two months I do not think there are more
than two that play with Europeans alone.
6611. Are the fan-tan houses run by companies ? Yes, mostly.
6612. What would be the capital of one of these companies ? I cannot tell.
6613. How much do you think ? They might have not more than £10 to start with, and from that it
might be from £100 to £200. I have known a house started on £300 in Sydney.
6614. How many lottery-houses are there in Lower George-street ? About as many as there are fan-tan
houses. «
6615. Would you say ten or fifteen, roughly speaking ? What I call a house is the name. There might
be three or four lottery-banks in the same company. Moy Ping has one or two.
6616. Loon Kee has a lottery ? Yes.
6617. And Doong Lee? I think so. There are two on the opposite side — on the left-hand side as you
go down — Took War Tong and Bo Sing Tong. The Took War Tong Company is wound up, because I
saw a notice put up that they wanted to get rid ot the house.
6618. Give us the names of the lotteries ? Kum Lee, Turn Lee, Tin Lee, Yuick Ki, Chew Lee, and
Covey Lee.
6619. What is the name of the lottery in Took War Tong's ? Chew Lee and Corey Lee.
6620. And Tiy War Tong ? They have no lottery there. There was once, but not now.
6621. What was the name of that one ? Yet Lee was in Tiy War Tong's, but not now.
6622. Do you know how many gambling-places there are in Goulburn-street ? I think about ten.
6623. How many lotteries are there there ? About an equal number to those in Lower George-street,
carrying on the lottery and fan-tan together.
6624. In Campbell-street how many are there ? Only a few.
6625. How many ? About four houses, I think.
6626. Is any lottery carried on there ? I do not know that.
6627. I suppose the lottery must be formed into a company ? Yes.
6628. Do you know how many gambling-houses there are in Wexford-street ? About half a dozen.
6629. How much are these lottery companies worth ;— how much capital do they have ? £300 is the
highest amount the winners can get.
6330. Suppose they won £600 by the tickets would they not get that amount ? No ; only £300.
6631. Who are the shareholders in these lottery-places ; give us a few of their names? The principal
that I know are Yip Tiy, Chum Seak, and Mooey Miy Chey.
6632. Does one man stand responsible for the whole of the £300 ? Yes ; I think so.
6633. Give us the name of one man you know who acts as banker ? I cannot tell you exactly their
names ; they may change them. They used to put up a notice, but latterly they do not.
6634. Give us the names of the good Chinese citizens in Sydney ? Way Kee, Yee Sang Loong, Tin,
War, Sun Chong Sing, Sam Choy, Sam War, Quong Hing Chong, Sun Hing Jang, King Hing, On Chong,
Sun Kum Tiy. These are the respectable business houses.
6635. President.] Was there not a meeting at Sun Sam War's shortly after the deputation to the
Government in reference to this Chinese gambling business ? Yes ; I was at the meeting.
6636. Were you not the principal speaker on that occasion, when you urged the raising of a fund to
defend the gamblers ? No ; I was not.
6637. What was the meeting called for ? It was about the agitation of the Europeans against the
Chinese gambling.
6638. Is Sun Sam War's a business house ? No ; a gambling-house.
6639. And you were spokesman there ? I was not the principal, but I did speak.
6640. What was it about? They wanted me because something had been published in the papers about
the Chinese gambling, and they wanted me to read it for them, and give them the interpretation. When
I had done so some of them said, " I suppose we are to be prevented gambling now." I asked if there
was anybody at the meeting who did give a present to the police, and nobody said they did.
6641. Mr. Abigail.] Did they shout out " No " all round ? A good few said so, but most of them did
not speak. They are not like Europeans in their meetings. They have a few members to do the talking.
I also asked who it was that was in the habit of insulting ladies in the street, and I was told there were
two young men (Chinamen) who were in the habit of calling out after the Europeans. They were
cautioned by the meeting very strongly. That was about all that occurred. One of them said, " Is it
likely we would give money to the police ? — we would not do it."
6642. How many were there at the meeting ? About thirty or forty.
6643. Were there any respectable Chinese merchants there"? No ; they were all gamblers. There were
a few who had some business, but they were also connected with gambling-places.
6644. Then there was not much done at that meeting ? No ; there was not much done.
6645. Is that true that they raised a sum of money for your benefit ? No, it is not true. I never got any
money, and I never asked for any. There was no such thing raised at the meeting. 6646.
14 Oct., 1891.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 165
6646. How came you to be at the meeting;— who asked you to attend there ? I met a few of them in W.
the street, and they said they were going to call a meeting, as from what we have been told the papers Pow ohee'
said a lot about the Chinese, and they wanted me to read the paper to the meeting.
6647. Was G-ouldtown present at that meeting ? Yes ; and also the next night; there were two meetings.
6648. Did they ask Mr. G-ouldtown to read the paper ? No, because they were satisfied, with me. He
went down there the second night to tell them what he had done.
6649. "Was nothing else said ? Some of them said, " You must be the one,"— meaning Gouldtown— " as
there was no other Chinaman among the Europeans." They said to him, " All this nonsense has come
from you."
6650. What did they mean by that ? They meant all that was said by the deputation to the Government.
6651. 3£r. Abigail] What did Gouldtown say to that? He said, " No, I did not tell anything that might
injure the Chinamen."
6652. Did he ever tell you how he had fooled the Anti-Chinese League ? No.
6653. Did he ever tell you he had been to their meetings, and had a talk with them ? Yes ; he told me
he had been there several times, and he told the meeting that as well.
6654. Did he relate to the meeting that he was authorised by certain Chinese merchants to attend the
Anti-Chinese League, and to tender them twenty sovereigns to assist in stopping Chinese gambling ? No.
6655. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Did he say what he had been doing at the League Y Yes. They taxed him with
saying about the 3d. being deducted from every £, and what it was done for, and he was asked for an
explanation. He denied that he had said anything about it, that he had never mentioned the 3d. They
then said, " Well, 2d "; and he replied, " I did mention to the League that 2d. in the £ was subscribed or
saved up for the purpose of assisting poor Chinamen."
6656. What was their reply to that ? They seemed satisfied, but I think they daubled him.
6657. Did he seem to say that he was only acting as a kind of spy, or informer, in going to the Anti-Chinese
Gambling League ? Yes.
6658. So that while the Anti-Chinese Gambling League thought Mr. Gouldtown was giving them a lot
of useful information about the Chinese, he (Gouldtown) led the meeting to believe that he was only
fooling the League? Yes ; and the reason the Chinese had to doubt him, was because it appeared in the
paper that some gentleman had said he was told by a Chinese merchant that there were only two Chinese
fan-tan houses in the form of European gambling clubs, and there was no such thing at all. They thought
he wanted to do this out of spite and told lies to the Anti-Chinese Gambling League, so as to have those
two shops started while the others were put aside.
6659. They took that for granted that his object was to give information to the Anti-Chinese Gambling
League so that all the other gambling-shops might be cleared away, and only those retained in'which he
had an interest ? Yes ; that is it.
6660. Did Mr. Gouldtown, by his manner, at the meeting, seem to lead the Chinese to believe that he was
only humbugging the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Well he did not seem to be very clear in his
way of answering the questions put to him.
6661. Did they seem to treat him with contempt, or to be vexed with him for going to the Anti-Chinese
League meetings ? Yes ; they did treat him with contempt. They looked at it in two ways ; they thought
he was a fool to tell such lies, and some said if he had any grounds for saying they had bribed the police
they would not mind, but they did not care as it was, so long as they could get a living.
6662. They were vexed that anyone should have said that they had been giving presents to the police, and
they thought Mr. Gouldtown had been giving this information to the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ?
Yes, and he denied it.
6663. But the meeting thought that he was humbugging them the same as he had done the Anti-Chinese
Gambling League ? Yes ; they thought he acted only for his own profit, and not in the public interest.
6664. Did the meeting arrive at any conclusion as to what they would do with Mr. Gouldtown in the
future ? No. I remember that I heard one voice cry out, " He wants a beating."
6665. That he wanted a good hammering ? Yes.
6666. Did they make up their minds as to what they were going to do in regard to the gambling — whether
they would alter their previous methods, for example ? No ; because they were suspicious one of the
other. They thought, what is the use of us having any meeting — we know that Moy Ping is very friendly
with Gouldtown, and most likely he is at the bottom of it. Therefore they never met again.
6667. Was Moy Ping at the meeting ? Yes.
6668. What did he say ? He put some questions to Gouldtown.
6669. What do you think of Mr. Gouldtown — do you think him a straight-going man ? I do not think
so. I have always had a suspicion of him.
6670. You think him an unreliable man ? I do.
6671. You think he went to the Anti-Chinese Gambling League for the purpose simply of making fools
of them? Yes.
6672. Was there any hint given to Gouldtown at the meeting that he should leave Sydney ? No ; I
never knew anything of that sort.
6673. How do you account for the fact of his going away immediately after that meeting ? I have been
told that Gouldtown cleared away on account of being frightened that the Chinese would give him a good
hammering, though in fact there was no such thing at all mentioned.
6674. You think he got frightened, on account of the deceitful part he was playing, that some of the
Chinese would give him a thrashing ? Yes ; that is my impression.
6675. Now can you not state definitely to the Commission where Mr. Gouldtown is at the present time ?
No ; I cannot.
6676. And you cannot think of the name of the man who told you he had received a letter from
Gouldtown ? No ; but I can find out.
6677. Will you find out and forward the address of the man -to the Secretary of the Commission ? Yes.
6678. What object would this man have in stating that he had received a letter from Gouldtown, if he did
not ? I should say on account of being one of his countrymen, and not liking to hear such things said
of him, as to his running away because he was frightened of people beating him.
6679. Then you really do not think he received, the letter at all ? I do not think so, because if he had he
would have told me straight where he was,
6680.
ICG
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
14 Oct.. 1801.
, ^ G680. You stated at an earlier part of your examination that you believed Gouldtown was either at
Fow Chcc. Emmaville or Brisbane ? I said I was informed so ; that is by a person who said he had received a letter
that Gouldtown had arrived there. You see he is a very remarkable man among my countrymen, on account
' of being such a good English scholar, and therefore he would be more noticed than an ordinary man.
G681. Does he speak English better than you do ? He is a better scholar than I am ; I admit that.
G682. You think he is one of the best educated Chinamen that has come to this country ? I do.
G683. You said just now that you thought the man's story about receiving a letter from Gouldtown was
not correct, because if he had received the letter he would have told you straight out where Gouldtown
was ; — how did you come to know he was at Emmaville or Brisbane ? A man told me he had received a
letter from Brisbane mentioning that Gouldtown was there. He went to Emmaville firct, and Brisbane
afterwards.
G684. Do.you think we are safe in conjecturing or believing that Gouldtown is cither in Brisbane or
Emmaville ? I do not think it likely.
G685. Do you think this countryman of his told you a lie ? I do not doubt that he was in Brisbane, but
there has been a letter since to say that he is not there.
G686. What is the reason they are keeping the whereabouts of Gouldtown so secret ? Because they, being
his friends, do not like the outside talk about him. If I had a friend I would not like to hear it said,
" Pow's friend is frightened of so-and-so, and is keeping away on that account."
6687. How long has he been in Sydney ? A few years. He arrived at about the time the Chinese agitation
was first beginning.
G688. And he remained up to the date of this meeting you have spoken of ? Yes.
G689. How long was it after the meeting when he cleared out ? About two or three weeks.
6690. Did he not clear out since this Commission was appointed ? I do not know exactly.
6691. Mr. Quong Tart.'] When did you know Mr. Gouldtown to become a gambler ? Since he gave up
the tea-shop in Barrack-street.
6692. Before that time he was respectable ? Yes.
6693. Did you ever write any letter to the Press, defending the gamblers ? No.
6694. And if anybody says that of you it is not true ? No ; I never wrote any letters.
6695. You say you would like to see the gambling stopped ? Yes, I would. ,
6696. Then why do you still take part in it ? I do not take part in it like that. It is my business to go
to the gambling-houses. Gambling is not my business, but I do business for the gamblers. Many
lawyers do the same when they are defending thieves.
6697. Do you think the majority of the Court cases among the Chinese arise out of these gambling-houses
in the city and suburbs of Sydney ? I think so, certainly ; but for the gambling they would be a good deal
more peaceable.
6698. Can you suggest any means of lessening or putting a stop to this evil ? Well, I do not think there
is any trouble about it.
6699. I want you to suggest anything that occurs to you in this matter, to raise the lower class of your
countrymen in the estimation of the public ? There are a few old people who cannot work among those
who make a living at gambling, because it is easy for them ; and if the Government put a stop to
gambling there would be complaints from some of the lower class, but everybody knows that it would be
a good thing for them generally.
6700. Can you suggest any way to put down the gambling ? It can easily be done ; if the Government
instruct the police, and give them authority to visit any of the Chinese gambling-houses whenever they
like, it will very soon be stopped.
6701. You consider the police have no power now ? No ; they cannot do anything unless they have a
warrant.
6702. And that is the reason that gambling is carried on so largely at the present time ? Yes.
6703. Mr. Hawthorne.'] You think that the law wants amending so that the police, knowing that gambling
is carried on in any house, can enter and arrest the people they find there, and get them heavily fined ?
Yes.
6704. Do you not know that the police can enter these places? I do not think so.
6705. Do you not know that the police have recently gone in and arrested them ? The occupants of the
houses can insist upon seeing a warrant.
6706. Do you think the Chinese informers decrease the opium- smoking and gambling ? No ; they do no
good ; they only do it for their own selfish ends. They may act from jealousy, or if they try to borrovif
money from some of those people and cannot get it they will go and inform upon them for spite.
6707. Do you know how many informers there are in Sydney ? I know one named Ah Man, and Hong
Lee Kum, and Cheong Son, and Long Pen. These four are well-known informers against our countrymen
for sly grog-selling, and gambling, and opium-smoking.
6708. Mr. Abigail.] Do you ever give information to the police of these things ? No.
6709. Although you know they are carried on ? Yes ; but I would not do such a thing as to go and
inform upon anyone. That is mean.
6710. Mr. Hawthorne.] Are these people who act as informers held in respect among the Chinese ? No,
not at all.
6711. Mr. Quong Tart.] What character does Mr. Lee On bear ? He is highly respectable.
6712. And On Yiek and Lee ? Very good characters.
6713. And Ung Quong and Sing Lee ? Yes, very good.
6714. Are you good friends with them ? Yes, both of them.
6715. Have you ever had a chat with TJng Quong about the best way of puttiug down the gambling? No.
6716. Did you ever hear that he tried to put down gambling at all ? He did say something to me a long
time ago, when 1 first came down from the country. He asked me what I thought of this gambling, and
I said I thought it was very bad ; it was carried on too openly.
6717. Is he connected with gambling at all? No.
6718. Or Yiek Lee or Way ELee ? No ; none of those I gave you a list of — the respectable Chinese
merchants — have anything to do with gambling.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 167
Mr. Samuel Sarsin called, and examined : —
6719. Mr. Hawthorne.] You are a half-caste ? Yes ; my father is Chinese, and my mother European. Mr. S. Sarsin.
6720. "Where are you employed ? At On Chong's. TTl^T^,
6721. In what capacity ? I am a clerk. u 0ot-> 1891'
6722. How long have you been a clerk there ? About seven years.
6723. Are you in the habit of gambling at all ? No.
6724. Have you never gambled at all ? No.
6725. Never in your life ? Well, not much.
6726. That is scarcely definite enough; — have you never gambled? Very little— not what you call
gambling.
6727. Have you ever played fan-tan ? No.
6728. Have you ever gone into the lottery business ? Yes ; I have gone into that.
6729. How long is it since you went into a lottery ? A few weeks ago.
6730. Were you successful ? Yes. It was through a friend I won that.
6731. "Were you not in the habit of going into lotteries ? No ; I was invited by a friend.
6732. You were invited to go into the lottery ? Yes. I met my friend in the "street. He had bought a
ticket, and said he would go me halves.
6733. What did he pay for the ticket ? Six shillings and sixpence.
6734. How many subscribers were there in that ? Only two. I gave him 3s. 3d.
6735. You stood in to share with him ? Yes.
6736. Did you win anything ? Yes.
6737. How much did you win ? My share came to £135. We won £270.
6738. Was that the first time you ever won any money in the lotteries ? Yes ; I do not go in for it.
6739. Had you ever taken a share previous to that ? Yes ; I had taken shares before.
6740. Did you ever win anything previous to this occasion you have told us of? No; not a large
amount.
6741. Were you paid the money as soon as you won ? I was paid the following day.
6742. How were you paid ? In gold.
6743. Did they pay you the £270 in sovereigns ? The gentleman who bought the ticket paid me £135 in
gold. My friend was paid the full amount, and he gave me my share.
6744. And that was the result of your investment in the 6s. 6d. lottery-ticket ? Yes.
6745. Were the tickets like this [handing witness a ticket] ? Yes ; that is the bank.
6746. What is the name ? Yet Lee. He purchased through an agent.
6747. Who was the agent ? You Lee.
6748. Is that the agent you always purchase tickets from ? I very seldom purchase one.
6749. When you have purchased tickets have you always purchased through this one ? No.
6750. Through other agents ? Yes.
6751. I suppose the agents purchase for the different banks ? I do not know.
6752. Did you go to Yet Lee's on this occasion ? I do not know where it is.
6753. But you say you went into the lottery ? I said I met an agent in the street — You Lee. He got
the money, and paid me at his place.
6754. Are you quite sure you had the money paid down that day ? It was the following day.
6755. And he paid you £135 ? Yes.
6756. And he got the other £135 ? I did not sec him paid.
6757. Was there not a balance left unpaid ? No.
6758. Will you swear that ? Yes.
6759. Will you swear the £270 was paid ? Yes.
6760. In gold? I do not know how my mate got his.
6761. But you got yours in gold ? Yes.
6762. And you believe your mate got his in gold ? I do.
6763. There is nothing owing to you now? No.
6764. What was the amount of the win altogether ? It was £300; the bank is limited to £300.
6765. How is it you only got £270 ? The commission had to be deducted.
6766. There is 10 per cent, ticket commission, and the bank got the other £30 ? Yes.
6767. Then, the possible winnings reached £300, less 10 per cent. ? Yes.
6768. Have ever you been in the lottery at Tiy War Tong's ? No.
6769. Have you never been up-stairs at 198, George-street? No.
6770. Are you quite sure ? Yes, quite sure.
6771. Where is Yet Lee's lottery carried on ? I cannot tell you.
6772. Have you no idea ? No.
6773. Do you know the firm of Sam War ? I know him.
6774. Do you know who comprise the firm ? No.
6775. Do you know anyone else at Sam War's ? No.
6776. Do you know Mr. Ting Quong ? Yes.
6777. Do you know whether he engages in gambling ? I do not know.
6778. Do you think he does ? I cannot say.
6779. Did you ever meet him in any gambling place ? No. .
6780 Do you know Eobt. Lee Kum ? I know the man when I see him. I do not know him personally.
6781. What do you think of him— is he a respectable Chinaman ? I know nothing of him at all.
6782. Do you know Long Pen ? No.
6783. Do you speak Chinese ? A little.
6784. You do not speak it fluently ? No, not fluently.
6785. Have you been in any other lottery since you won the £270? No, I very seldom go m.
6786. And you would not have gone in on the occasion you won this money only that your friend asked
you to go halves with him ? No.
6787. Mr. Abigail] Are you a native of Sydney? No, I am a native of the country.
6788. Where were you educated ? At Wagga Wagga.
6789. How old are you ? Twenty-six years.
14 Oct., 1891
108 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
M>'- . G700. Tou know Chinese gambling is carried on to a very large extent in the city ? Tes.
• f^JJ^ 6791. Do you think it has a tendency to improve the moral tone of a community ? I cannot say.
6792. Are you perfectly free to express an opinion upon any question brought under your notice ?
Oh, yes.
6793. Do you ever smoke opium ? No.
6791. Do you think it a good thing ? I do not know. I do not know what it is.
6795. Do you know any people who smoke opium ? I know some, yes.
6796. Does it improve or injure them, do you think ? I cannot say.
6797. A\rith regard to gambling, I want you to give me your opinion ; — do you think it would benefit the
community to have it done away with ? 1 cannot say.
6798. Do you think it elevates them — improves or makes them better men ? I cannot say that ; I do not
know.
6799. Have you any knowledge of the gamblers as a class ? No.
6800. With what class do you associate ? With Europeans.
6801. You know you have taken oath on the Bible to speak the truth ? Tes, I quite understand that.
6802. The Commission has power to commit you if you do not answer straightforwardly. I have asked
you a very straight question in a very plain way — are you in favour of gambling ? No.
6803. Why not ? I have a dislike to it myself.
6804. Do you think it would improve you to go in for gambling largely ? No ; I do not.
6805. Do you think it would injure you ?
6S06. Then, if it would injure you, do not you think it would be likely to injure other people ? I do not
know about other people.
6807. Are you different from Chinamen generally in that respect? No.
6808. Then, how do you suppose it would injure you, if you indulged in it every clay in the week ? If I
lost, it would injure me.
6809. If you could win £135 two or three times a week, I suppose you reckon it would not injure you?
No ; not if I played every day in the week at that rate.
6810. Do you very often go into the company of the Chinese ? I am always in their company.
6811. Do you ever hear them talk about gambling — about losing or winning money ? Not in the place
where I am.
6812. There is no gambling carried on there ? No.
6813. No opium-smoking ? No.
6814. Do you visit any other Chinese places ? Very few.
6815. Tou spend most of your time in the company of Europeans ? Tes.
6816. Where do you live ? In G-eorge-street.
6817. Do you live on the business premises? Tes.
6818. How many hands are there employed there ? I think there are ten.
6819. Are they all Chinese ? Tes.
6820. Have you heard them speaking about the police at all, and discussing how mucli they get for
carrying out their duty in that part of the city ? No ; I have not.
6821. Tou never heard anything of the kind ? No.
6822. Did you never hear them say anything as to what a good thing it was for the policemen to be
on that beat ? No.
6823. Tou are quite sure ? Tes.
6824. Have you ever heard of a policeman receiving presents of such things as a gold watch and chain,
or diamond rings, or anything of that kind ? No ; I never heard of such a thing.
6825. Has' not your firm ever made a present of any kind to the police ? No ; I am quite certain they
have not.
6826. Could they have done it without you knowing of it? I do not think so.
6827. Mr. Quonff Tart.'] The firm of On Chong is considered one of the most respectable in Sydney ?
6828. They would not allow any of their people to gamble ? No.
6829. Tou have never played fan-tan ? No ; I never did.
6830. Tou have only gone into the lottery ? Tes.
6831. When was it you made that lucky hit ? About three weeks ago.
6832. What day in the week ? Thursday I think ; but I will not be certain.
6833. And when did they pay you ? On Saturday.
6834. Where is the place ? I did not go ; I do not know the place. My friend came to Harrington-
street and paid me.
6835. At whose place ? At Chee Eoo's.
6836. Did Chee Eoo have any interest in it ? No ; he had nothing to do with it. The agent simply
came to his place to pay me.
6837. How was it he came to pay you there ? It was so arranged between us.
6838. Ha.ve you heard that Wong Lee Kum, the informer, has been abusing this Commission, and
threatening to give me a dressing down, and to throw me in the river? No ; I have not heard anything
like that.
6839. Onn of your firm is Tee Hing ? Tes.
6840. He is a good character — an excellent man ? Tes.
C841. And has always been very much against gambling ? Tes.
[The witness withdrew.]
FSJDAT,
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 169
FRIDAY, 16 OCTOBER, 1891.
fflxtsent:—
The Mayor oe Sydney (Me. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbesident.
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. "William Loo Lisson called in and examined :—
6842. President.] You have been a resident in Sydney for a great many years, I believe ? Yes, for Mr.
twenty years. W. L. Lieson.
6843. You have an extensive acquaintance with the Chinese residents in Sydney ? I have. /~^— ^
6844. "We have a list of the houses in Lower George-street occupied by Chinese '\BxUlit A] ; the infor- 16 Oot> 1891-
mation comprises the nature of the occupations and pursuits of the tenants, and also statements with
regard to their personal characteristics ;— you have already made yourself acquainted with the contents of
the exhibit ? I have.
6845. Are the statements in the list true statements ? Yes, perfectly true.
6846. Your knowledge is considerable upon the point, and enables you to speak with certainty ? Yes.
6847. This [Exhibit B~\ is another list of houses in another part of the city ;— you have read that list
also, I believe ? I have.
6848. Are the statements made in that, to your knowledge, correct and worthy of the credence of the
Commission ? They are.
6849. And you speak with a thorough knowledge of the subject? I do.
6850. I hand you now another list [0] ;— you have read that also ? I have.
6851. Are the statements contained in it true ? They are.
6852. And you have as equally good a knowledge of the statements in that list as you have in those of
the other two lists ? I have.
The Rev. Peter Le Rennetel : —
6853. You are a Roman Catholic priest ? Yes ; in charge of St. Patrick's parish, Church Hill. Rev. P.
6854._ How long have you been located there ? Twelve years. During that time I was absent on one Le Rennetel.
occasion for seven months. r— ^j^-~ \
6855. Have you had any experience at all of the gambling habits of the Chinese in Lower George-street 16 0ct-> 1891>
or the locality ? Yes ; I have experience of it every day.
6856. "Would you recount your experience ? Every day at lunch-time, between 1 and 2 o'clock, you can
see young men (clerks especially) going into these Chinese dens by scores. I never pass there about that
time of day without seeing about twenty young fellows coming in or going out of those Lower George-
street dens.
6857. There is no doubt in your mind that the young fellows you refer to go into these places for the
purpose of gambling? No doubt whatever. JNothing else could bring them to those places.
G858. Are you prepared to say that gambling is carried on in these Chinese dens publicly ? I would not
say publicly, but it is known to everybody.
6859. It is known generally that the houses are used for that purpose ? Yes ; everybody knows that.
6860. Is there any doubt in your mind as to the police knowing the purpose for which these houses are
kept ? I believe that the police know as well as we do what the houses are kept for.
6861. It is within the knowledge of the police that they are gambling-houses ? It is, I believe.
6862. Have you ever had any conversation with any of the officers of the police with reference to the
conduct of these houses ? I had a conversation on the subject with Inspector Atwill two years ago. I
went to see him about it, and told him that I had asked a Member of Parliament to bring in a Bill dealing
with the matter. He begged me, however, not to do anything, as the police themselves were preparing a
Bill on the subject.
6863. "When did that conversation take place ? Two or three years ago.
6864. Did Inspector Atwill explain to you in what respect the present law was defective ? He explained
that the gamblers must be caught in the act of gambling, and that, excepting in very extraordinary cases,
it was impossible to do so. Asa matter of fact it is practically impossible, for there are so many doors
by which people can get out. There are both European and Chinese gamblers there, and I believe my-
self that there are more Europeans than Chinese.
6865. Is it a fact that considerable distress results from the gambling-houses to the people in the locality
where your Church is ? My opinion is, that the men who visit these places lose all sense of honor, all
sense of affection, and all sense of duty. That is my opinion, and it is not an opinion merely ; I am sure
of it. Every day I can witness cases of the greatest distress arising from the frequenting of these places
by people in my district. Eor instance, I have known a father with a family of six children going there
every Saturday night, and taking all his money, and week after week the family having to be supported
by public charity. I have had myself to come to the relief of that family. That is one case. 1 have
known another in which a young man who was very well off — I believe he was making something like
£7 or £8 a week in business — was one day invited to go into one of these Chinese dens. He did so, and
within three months of that day he had lost everything, and is now a confirmed gambler, the efforts that
I and his friends have made to induce him to give it up being of no avail whatever. Indeed, I never
knew of more than two cases in which men in the habit of frequenting these houses have been able to
give it up. That is my experience after twelve years' work in the midst of it all.
6866. The evil effects of Chinese gambling, then, are not confined to the class of young men whom you
see going into the dens in such numbers between 1 and 2 o'clock ? No ; the evil brings misery into
the homes of families.
6867. Do the Europeans who attend the gambling-houses come from all classes of society ? Yes.
6S68. From which class do they principally come ? I believe from clerks and young men in offices.
6869. "What about the seafaring population and the wharf labourers and coal-lumpers, and men of that
class ? I must say that I have known few cases of them going there. I have known perhaps five or six
cases of wharf labourers, married men, going there — only five or six cases. 6870.
272— Y
17fl
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Le ReT Ptel ^°- *s *^at a^ ** ^es > °^ course I would not know so well those who were not married, because I
_^^_/* have not the same opportunity of seeing them. They are only a floating population.
16 Oct. 1891 6S71. Is the practice of gambling general amongst the class you meet with down in your district ? It is
' not. It is the exception, anyhow, amongst my flock. There is not one out of a hundred of them who
goes into those places, I think.
6872. Then from what district do you suppose the frequenters of these gambling-shops come ? I cannot
tell you.
6873. But you think that they do not come so largely from your district as one would imagine ? Judging
from my own people, I should say not. I know the whole of my people, and I can point out every one
who is in the habit of going to the Chinese gambling-dens. As I have already said, I do not think there
is one out of a hundred. That is my opinion.
6874. Have you had any conversation with any of the other police besides Atwill on the subject ? Oh,
many a time.
6875. "Would you name some of the police with whom you have had communications ? I really could
not mention any by name.
6876. But you have spoken to policemen of various positions in the force ? Oh, frequently. In passing
along Lower George-street, often when I have met a policeman I have said, " Why do you not stop these"
people ; you see them going into these houses ? " He said, in reply, " "We cannot do it ; the law is not
sufficient "; and I believe myself that the law is not sufficient. My opinion is, that the law will never
be successful until not only the gamblers are fined but also the landlords, after having received warning
two or three times from the police that their houses are being used for the purpose of gambling. I
would go further than that, too, — I would say that it is not enough to put on the same fine of £20 or
£40 each time that a conviction takes place, because the gamblers would pay the fine beforehand. My
opinion is that it should be increased, in the same way that fines for drunkenness are increased, in
proportion to the number of convictions recorded, — the first fine 10s., the second £1, and so on. If the
same fine is imposed on the Chinese gambling-house proprietors every time it will have no effect.
6877. You cannot particularise any of the police that you have spoken to on the subject? No, because
I have spoken to so many that I should not know who they are.
6878. Then you are prepared to swear positively that this gambling is carried on with the full knowledge
of the police ? Tes.
6879. And the police have confessed to you their inability to cope with the evil by reason of the state of
the law ? Many a time. I do not believe anything about the police being bought up.
6880. Tou do not believe that any of the reports about the police being bribed are true ? No, I do not
believe them.
6881. Do you know the circumstances of any of the police in charge of your district ; — is Mr. Atwill, for
instance, a man well off ? I do not think he is well off.
6882. Have you ever heard it alleged that he has received presents from the Chinese ? I must say that
I have heard it said that he received a present, but I did not believe it.
6883. "What was the nature of the present? I forget now; it was said to be a piece of furniture, or
something like that.
6884. How long ago ? It was about a fortnight ago that I heard the statement made, but I did not
believe it all the same. I have heard rumours about policemen receiving bribes before, but never a word
about Inspector Atwill being bribed. The person who made the statement to me had it second-hand, and
from my knowledge of Inspector Atwill I do not think he would do a thing of that kind.
6885. Do you know Sergeant Higgins ? I do.
6886. Is he a man reputed to be well off ? He is not well off, but he might have £7 a week coming in from
houses of which he is the owner. It is my opinion that he has about that amount, but his property is
mortgaged to my knowledge. He would have about £7 a week if his property was not mortgaged.
6887. Have you ever heard it stated that he received bribes from the Chinese, or from anyone else ?
No. '
6888. Do you know him personally ? Tes, I know him personally.
6889. Is he a steady, sober man ? Yes, I think so. I never saw him under the influence of drink.
6890. A man of character ? Yes.
6891. Erom your knowledge of him, do you think that it would be likely that he would accept bribes from
the Chinese ? No, I think he would not. I do not think that any sergeant of the police would accept
bribes from the Chinese in Lower George-street.
6892. Your remarks apply to all the police, do they — to Constable O'Sullivan, for example? Yes. I
know O'Sullivan personally.
6893. Is he a man of much property ? No, I do not think he has much. Indeed I do not think he has
anything at all.
6894. Do you know any member of the police force who is reputed to be at all wealthy ? No, excepting
Sergeant Higgins, and I know how he made his money ; he made it by successfully buying land about
twelve years ago. I remember it very well. He bought a property near the " Shipwrights' Arms," and
afterwards sold it at a good profit.
6895. It is within your knowledge, then, as far as Sergeant Higgins is concerned, that whatever money
he has made he made it by successful business speculations ? Yes, and I wish you to understand that my
opinion with regard to Inspector Atwill is equally high. He is a very respectable man.
6896. But I understood you to say that he has not much property ? No, he has not much.
6897. Have you ever noticed women going into these places ? I have seen women going into the houses
to buy lottery-tickets, but not inside to play fan-tan, except, perhaps, bad girls, and I have seen them
going in and out in Lower George-street and Cambridge-street.
6898. Are there any gambling-houses in Cambridge-street ? Some of- them have been closed, and I do
not suppose there are any there now, except that I fancy gambling is carried on in one house, and it is
difficult to find anything out about that place, because it is a house in which there are a number of bad
girls.
6899. Then, so far as your knowledge goes, gaming-houses are not used by Women ? No, except for
the purpose of buying lottery-tickets.
6000. Is that practice indulged in to any extent ? I have not noticed it so much lately, but it used to be
a very common thing. 6901.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Wl
6901. Has it ever been your experience that young girls have been decoyed into the houses of Chinamen S*v- ?•
where opium-smoking and gambling go on? Yes; I have known of many such cases, unfortunately — L?K«»9etfl,
cases where girls have been decoyed by presents from the Chinamen, and then drugged with opium. * lfioV'iSBl
6902. With regard to the question of purity, would you say that the Chinese population of Lower ° '* ""
G-eorge-street and its neighbourhood was conspicuously immoral, or are they no worse in that respect than
the European residents ? When Chinamen are married they are excellent husbands, to my knowledge.
That I have found out, but when they are unmarried they try to get girls by inducing them by every
possible means to smoke opium, and when they have once smoked opium they are irretrievably lost. We
can never get them out of the Chinamen's clutches afterwards— absolutely never. There is, perhaps, not
a man in the whole district, not even amongst the police, who goes into as many houses as I do. I go
into all these Chinamen's houses and opium-dens, and when they see that we are pretty successful with
the girls they send them off to Waterloo, and we do not see them any more.
6903. It is within your knowledge that when any attempt is made to reclaim these fallen girls they are at
once sent by the Chinese out of the district to Waterloo, so as to keep them away from your influence?
Tes. It is a great degradation when they begin to smoke opium. I have seenseven or eight of them lying
upon the table of a Chinaman's house, half covered and in an intoxicated state, as the result of opium-
smoking.
6904. The scenes that you have witnessed, then, may be simply described as beastly ? Tes, beastly,
indeed.
6905. And it is harmful to the morals of the people of the district that the Chinese should be there ?
Yes ; it is a great calamity to the district, although, to be just, I should say this : That the majority of
the girls who are in the Chinese dens in that locality come there in the first instance from Woolloomoolop.
6906. You wish to say that, as a matter of fact, the majority of the girls and women living with the
Chinese have fallen before they came to the Chinese ? Yes.
6907. But it is also a fact that before they come to the Chinese they are not irreclaimable ; — they can be
rescued ? Yes; it is the opium-smoking that does the ultimate harm. They can be rescued before they
become opium-smokers.
6908. But after they once begin there is nothing to be done ? Absolutely nothing. Neither persuasion
nor kindness nor anything else is of any avail.
6909. It is your opinion, then, that the moral phase of this question, as it affects women, is quite as much
worthy the consideration of the Government as that of gambling ? Yes.
6910. Are the houses of ill-fame to which you have referred connected with the gambling-houses ? No,
I do not think so.
6911. Have you ever heard that it is the custom of the proprietors of the Chinese gaming-houses to build
up a fund for their defence in case of prosecution ? Yes, I have frequently heard it.
6912. What would the fund be used for ? I imagine from what I have heard that it would be used for the
payment of the lawyers, and also for the payment of fines, and so on.
6913. Have you ever heard that that fund is used for tho purpose of corrupting the police ? I heard
that from a person whom I did not trust.
6914. Then, notwithstanding that you have heard it, you do not believe it to be true ? No, I do not think
it. There might be two or three cases of individual constables having been bought.
6915. But you do not know of any such cases ? No, I do not know of any.
6916. I understood you to say just now that one of the remedies that you think are necessary for this
evil is the making of the landlords party to the gambling transactions of their tenants, and punishing
them for their acts ? I believe that that is the only remedy. It is certainly the most important step to
be taken.
6917. You think it is practically the only remedy ? I do not quite mean that. I mean that all the
.other remedies will fail unless there is a law which will fine the landlord along with the tenant.
6918. If you were to say that the landlords should be punished in that way, would it not imply that they
were receiving in some way or other a share in the profits of the gambling-houses — in the shape of high
rents I mean ? Yes ; and that is the case.
6919. Can you give us any instances in support of that statement? I have heard of many cases from
people living in the district, and not only that but I have heard of the Chinese gamblers bribing an agent-
giving £30 or £40 to an agent in order that he would eject a tenant who had been there for ten years or
more, the consequence being that the Chinese have always paid £2 or £3 a week more for the house when
it has come into their hands than the former European tenant paid.
6920. How many gambling-houses are there in Lower George-street ? There are only seven or eight
there now ; there were more.
6921. Do you think then that seven or eight gambling-houses can only be procured by the Chinese
buying out the other tenants, as you have described, and paying higher rentals for the houses for them-
selves ? I know that that was done in one or two cases.
6922. Would you mind mentioning a particular case ? I could mention some, but I would not eare to do
it, because it would do harm to the particular agent.
6923. Still you have known of cases ? I have known of two or three cases in which it was done.
6924. What was the amount of the bonuses then ? In one case the agent got £30 for letting the house
to a Chinese gambler, and in another case £45 was offered by a Chinese gambling firm but refused by the
. agent to whom the offer was made.
6925. What business is carried on in the Chinese shops to which you have been referring ? Oh, with the
exception of the premises occupied by the Chinese merchants, the places are used for nothing but
gambling. There is no stock, and no one is ever seen going in to make purchases.
6926. Then, in addition to the bonuses, there would be a higher rental, would there ? Always a higher
rental of £2 or £3 a week.
6927. Can you give us an instance of a particular house which was previously let at £3 a week being let
at £5 a week ? Yes.
6928. Can you tell us what house it was ? I do not care to give you the name of the house, because that
would involve the name of the individual who owns it.
6929. We should like to have the name, if you will give it to us, because your evidence is to a large
extent a matter of opinion, and a reference to actual cases would strengthen it ? I am giving my evidence
on oath, and I can say that in two cases to my knowledge bonuses were accepted, and in another case a
bonus of £45 was refused. 6930.
172 CHINESE GAMBLING. COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
R«v. P. 6930. And you know that the rentals were increased ? Tes ; in one case the rent was increased from
Le Rennetel. £g 15g to £6 ft week
16o"t*~'l89i 6931. Have you made a study of the rentals in Lower George-street ? No, I cannot say that I have ;
c "' " but what I can say is that the presence of the Chinese gambling-houses there decreases the value of the
shops occupied by Europeans as business places.
6932. Makes them less letable, that is ? Tes.
6933. "Well would not that have the effect of reducing the rents ? No doubt in some cases that happens,
but when the Chinese gamblers are in a hurry to get a house they must do so at all costs.
6934. I understand you to say that there are eight Chinese gambling-houses in Lower George-street ?
There are eight that I have actually been in.
6935. And one of your remedies would be to make the landlords all over the Colony responsible for the
conduct of their tenants with regard to gambling ? Yes ; after they have received proper warning in the
first instance. I would give them two warnings by the police, and if they did not send their tenants away
after that, and the police had a case against the gamblers, they ought to have power to proceed against
the landlords too.
6936. Can you tell me the names of the landlords who have received this higher rental from Chinese
tenants ? I did not say that the money was given to the landlords.
6937. That is not the question. I want to know the names of the landlords. Tou say that you know of
cases in which there has been an increased rental, and I want you to give us the names of the landlords
who have received that increase. Let us have the name of the property-owner who raised his rental from
£3 15s. to £6 a week ? I do not know who really is the landlord. The shop adjoins some property of
the Hon. ~W. A. Long, but as I do not know how far Mr. Long's property extends, I cannot say whether
it comprises this particular house.
6938. Tou would not swear, however, that it did not belong to the Hon. W. A. Long ? No, I would
not, and as I have said I could not swear that it did.
6939. Would you swear that the agent who took the money was not Mr. Eeech ? I do not know him.
69-40. No, but will you swear that he was not the man who received the bonus ? I would not be justified
in swearing that it was not, and I would not be justified in swearing that it was ; I do jiot know.
6941. I do not ask you to swear that he was — I ask you to swear that he was not ? I would not swear
either way.
6942. And you would not swear that the house that you have mentioned does not belong to the Hon.
~W. A. Long ? I could not swear, because I do not know how far the property of the Hon. W. A. Long
goes.
6943. Do you know anything about the Chinese in any other part of the city ? Not much.
6944. Do you know anything about them in Goulburn-street or its neighbourhood ? No ; I occasionally
visit that part of the city, but I know very little about it.
6945. Tou think that opium-smoking is most pernicious in its effects upon the virtue of women, and
prevents their being reclaimed when once they have fallen ? Tes ; that is my experience, and it also
destroys young men too. I do not mean that to be injured by opium young men must necessarily smoke
it, but the young fellows who go into these places and breathe atmosphere full of opium smoke night
after night very soon become stupid. It affects their brains. I have known of many such cases.
6946. Then you think that the European habitues of Chinese gambling-dens have a very easy transition to
become opium-smokers ? Tes. I have known, I say, several cases in which young men, after being in
these places for three or four months, have become quite stupid, and some of them are young men of very
good family too.
6947. Mr. Abigail.'] Tou have visited these places ? Tes.
6948. TJp to how recently did your visits extend ? Habitually, almost weekly, up to the present time.
6949. Do you find them clean ; — are the sanitary arrangements good ? All the places where they smoke
opium are very unclean. The lodging-houses of the Chinese are also very bad.
6950. Tou know the smell of opium, do you not ? Tes.
6951. It is very sickening ? Tes, very offensive.
6952. And you find opium-smoking in most of the places that you have visited ? Tes.
6953. Do you find any overcrowding in any of these lodging-houses ? Oh, yes ; a great deal. In many
places they have three or four beds one on the top of the other.
6954. In reference to the alteration of the law necessary for the conviction of these gambling-houses
keepers, you have given, of course, very direct evidence to the effect that, after having received due notice,
the landlord should be held responsible ? Tes.
6955. That is a somewhat similar rule to that carried out in reference to the hotelkeepers, is it not ?
Tes, it is something like it.
6956. Do you not also think that it would have very salutary results if the law provided for the punish-
ment of these Chinese gambling-house keepers by imprisonment, without the option of a fine ? That would
be most useful, because its operations would limit the number of people engaged in carrying the houses
on, and there would be some hope that within a few months many of the gambling-houses would be closed,
6957. Have you heard of any of the places being closed during the last few weeks ? Tes ; and I have
noticed that there are fewer Europeans going into those houses, especially since the raid.
6958. They seem to be afraid of being caught? Tes, they are afraid.
6959. Comparing the condition of the Chinese gambling-houses and the class of Chinamen you find in
them (I am speaking of the whole surroundings) with the same class of Europeans, do you think the
former are much worse ? I admit that the Chinese gambling-house keepers are superior to the Europeans
when the Europeans have been frequenting the houses for five or six months.
6960. Tes, but I want to ascertain your opinion as to the comparative condition of the same class of
Europeans who have not been brought under the influence of the Chinese ? Well, I believe that the
Chinese are much more cunning. They are cleverer than the Europeans.
6961. Do they show the same willingness and desire for space and decent sanitation and cleanliness that
Europeans of the same class would show ? No, they do not.
6962. Did you read the newspaper accounts of the great deputation that waited upon Sir Henry Parkes
on this question ? I must say that I did not read it. I was invited to make one of the deputation, but
did not attend.
6963.
CHINESE GAMBLING: COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 173
6963. That deputation consisted of a number of Members of Parliament and leading tradespeople carrying B*v- P-
on business in Lower G-eorge-street ? Tes. Le Rennetel.
6964. They made statements very largely bearing out what you have told the Commission ? Tes. I^0ct^l891
6965. But they went beyond that, and stated that the police were not content with getting gold watches
and diamond rings in three months, but that it was held to be one of the best beats in the city ? I do
not believe it. I heard of that remark having been made, but I did not believe it at the time.
6966. Have you ever noticed outside the shops white paper notices ? Oh, ves ; it is well known what
they mean.
6967. "Would you tell us what they mean ? I cannot give you the exact meaning ; but they are known
to be the sign-boards of gambling-houses.
6968. That is commonly known, you say ? Oh, yes.
6969. And those notices are up in a great many places ? Oh, yes, that is a well-known thing.
6970. And the police passing up and down in front of the shops know what the notices mean as well as
the public, one would imagine ? Tes ; but it it is not easy for the police to catch the gamblers, because
very great precautions are taken by the proprietors of the establishments. I have known the Chinese
post sentries all along the street, with instructions to give a signal as soon as a policeman comes out of
the policestation in Lower George-street. Immediately the signal is given the doors are locked.
6971. Inside the shops themselves we are informed they have taken precautions of having strongly -bolted
doors and additional partitions ? Tes ; and I know the place in that photograph very well. Gambling
has been carried on there for a number of years.
6972. Do you not think is would also be a wise provision in an amended law that the finding of gambling-
implements on the premises should be made evidence against the keepers of the house ? 1 believe that
that ought to be one of the conditions, because otherwise, except in extraordinary cases, there is no
means of getting at the gamblers ; but the very fact that they have there implements for gambling
oughtto be a sufficient reason to convict the tenant of the house of being the keeper of a gambling-
establishment.
6973. Have you heard of any considerable sums of money being won in those places ? Very seldom.
6974. Have you ever heard of any disturbance arising out of them? I have heard of them, and I have
seen them too. I have seen young men coming out of these houses in a fearful state.
6975. With excitement ? Oh, yes, and all covered with blood. I have known of a young man having to
be sent to the hospital at Parramattain consequence of the injuries he had received in a row at a Chinese
gambling-house, and then, as soon as he was cured of erysipelas, going at it again. It was impossible to
cure him when once he had begun to play. That is my experience of the fascination of the game.
6976. So that it would be a public benefit if the law was strengthened sufficiently to stamp the evil out?
I believe that such a course is absolutely necessary for the good of the Europeans as well as the Chinese.
6977. And as to opium-smoking, its suppression demands our best attention on account of the women and
young girls who fall victims to it? Tes; otherwise we shall never be able to reclaim the girls who
frequent these places. It is absolutely impossible to do it as long as the Chinamen have the opportunity
of drugging them with opium.
6978. Mr. McKillop.~\ In your opinion, if the European portion of the community were to post notices
to the effect that gambling was carried on within outside their premises, would not the police put the law
in motion ? Tes ; I think they would.
6979. Do you consider that it was the duty of the police, even although they did not know what the
notices meant, to get them interpreted for them ? Oh, yes. I believe that the police knew the meaning of
the notices, and that they know these houses to be gambling-houses, but at the same time that they were
prevented from taking action, owing to the difficulty of getting evidence sufficient to procure conviction.
So that I really believe that the police are not so much to blame as the law. The law is insufficient, and
the insufficiency of the law is, in my opinion, the reason why the police have not taken action.
6980. Do you not also consider that it is very singular that in the course of four or five years there have
been three raids made by the police, the police knowing all the while that gambling is carried on to a
very large extent ? It is strange ; I grant that.
6981. And these three raids were successful, so that it is quite possible that raids more frequently made
would have been the means of checking the evil ? That is my opinion.
6982. The police have the power to enter these premises, and they should use the power whenever
suspicion arises ? Tes ; they do not visit the gambling-houses often enough. If ouly they were in the
habit of visiting them (say) once a week, in all probability they would shut them up eventually.
6983. And are you of opinion that it is through this laxity on the part of the police that these rumours
to the effect that they have been bribed, have got into circulation ? That may be so ; and it may also be
that rumours have got about owing to some people having a grudge against the police. In fact it is my
opinion that that is the case. They are, I think, people who have for some reason been interfered with
by the police, and out of spite set these rumours on foot.
6984. Do you remember Sergeant M'Intosh, who is now at Manly, being in charge of that district ? I do.
6985. Do you also remember that he was greatly feared by the Chinese evil-doers down there ? Tes, I
believe that he was.
6986. He used to make single-handed raids, do you know that ? No. I do not know anything about that.
6987. But, at all events, he did make frequent raids on the Chinese gambling-houses ? Tes ; but the
gambling-evil was nothing like as extensive then as it is now. It is a regular evil pervading the whole
district now, whilst then it was confined to a few people.
6988. Are you of opinion that, through the growth of the evil, and the objectionable associations con-
sequent upon it, that respectable people, who used formerly to make Lower George-street the regular
route to the Circular Quay, now go down Pitt-street, or along some other thoroughfare ? I am fully
convinced of it. That part of the town has a very bad name, and there are many ladies who will not dare
to go to a shop in Lower George-street — not even to a shop kept by a European. They call it China-
own, and they are afraid of being insulted by some low scoundrel or other. As a matter of fact, the
presence of these Chinese gambling-houses has destroyed the trade in that part of the city. There is no
trade there now. The Chinese do not seek for ordinary business. They have a lot of boxes in their
windows, but they do no trade. There is not a day that I do not pass there two or three times, and
within the last twelve months, excepting the places kept by gamblers, I have not seen three Europeans
go into shops or houses kept by Chinamen. 6989.
174 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
b^' P' 69s9- ^° .Vou know any instances of respectable families being insulted, or has your attention never been
Le Rennetel. drawn to any distinct cases ? No ; I do not know of any actual cases of the kind.
160^1891 699°- But y°u know tnat there are some very respectable Chinese merchants in that part of the city ?
c ■' 'I do, and I have a great respect for the four or five that I know. They are quite distinct from the keepers
of gambling-houses.
6991. Can you give us the names of the respectable merchants whom you know ? "Well, there is the
firm of On Chong, that of Sun Kun Tiy, and also On Teek and Lee. There are about five or six Chinese
merchants in Lower George-street who are really respectable people, and I do not think that anybody
ever said a word against them.
C992. Has it at any time been brought under your observation — not perhaps in connection with your own
church, but in the course of your work and residence in the district — that there are large numbers of
coal-lumpers, and wharf labourers, and seamen, and men of that class who systematically gamble their
wages away when receiving them on a Saturday ; — I am referring particularly to cases outside your church ?
Tes ; I know the people at that end of the city outside my church almost as well as I know those within
my church. It is a frequent occurrence. I have known myself of many cases such as you refer to.
Wharf labourers and coal-lumpers and seafaring men have during the last three or four years taken
greatly to Chinese gambling — not so much the married men amongst them as the single ones.
6993. There seems to be something perfectly infatuating in fan-tan ; — has the game ever been explained
to you ? Tes, it has, but from the explanation I have received I cannot understand the infatuation,
because there seems to be so little chance for anybody but the bank to win.
.6994. Is it because the stakes are so very low that they cannot lose much ? Tes ; I suppose so; At the
same time men go into the gambling-houses with £3 or £4 in their pockets and often come out with nothing.
6995. Tou stated in reply to Mr. Abigail that most of the girls who go there and get under the influence
of opium are girls from Woolloomooloo ; — are you of opinion that when these girls go there first they are
chaste ? Some that I have known of were certainly respectable before they went there. I believe that
they were first brought under the influence of the Chinamen by the present of a fine dress, or something
of that kind. After that they are invited to take a trip to Waterloo or Alexandria, and whilst there to
smoke opium, and when they have once smoked opium they are lost. The girls themselves have told me so.
6996. I suppose from what you have said that, judging from experience, ybu consider that the craving for
opium is stronger than the craving for drink ? Oh, yes, there is no doubt about that. Tou can cure a
man of drunkenness, but your only chance of rescuing an opium-smoker is to remove him from the thing.
6997. Is it your opinion — I do not ask you the question because it applies to your own church more
especially than to others ; but it is your opinion that the girls in your own part of the town have been
kept away from the influence of the Chinese by reason of the watchfulness cf the clergy ? "Well, with
regard to the girls of my own church,! am compelled to say what may have the appearance of self-praise.
That is that they would not dare to go to these places because they are afraid of being met there by me,
and that is really what keeps our girls awav. I do not think there is any other reason. They know that
I visit these places, whether it is a house of good or ill-fame I go there, and they would be afraid of
meeting me. If they wanted to prostitute themselves to Chinamen they would go to other districts.
That is my opinion, and I think it is the opinion of other people too.
6998. Are you of opinion that a clean sweep should be made by the Government of all the barricades
erected by the Chinese gambling-house keepers for the purpose of preventing the police from the execution
of their duty ? Tes ; apart from the social phase of the question, it is absolutely necessary from a
sanitary point of view. They completely stop ventilation. No air has any chance of passing through
there, and it is especially necessary to have these places kept open.
6999. "Would you also consider it necessary that this class of Chinamen (I am not alluding to the respectable
Chinese merchants) should be kept in one centre, as they are in San ITrancisco ? Tes ; I think that would
be a good thing.
7000. Tou think that it would be far better, in the interest of the health and morality of the city, that
they should be all kept together ? Tes ; that is my opinion. I think that it would be very much better
for everybody. Under those circumstances, any girls who went there would go on their own accord.
They could not be enticed there as they are enticed now.
7001. I suppose that the Chinese, who are proverbially so cunning, have very suave manners towards
women ? Oh, yes ; they have always smooth tongues. Tou never hear them quarrelling. Superficially, they
are the best behaved people you could see. I remember only one row caused by Chinamen. It originated
in regard to a man (a Chinaman) who was supposed by his countrymen to have been playing the part of an
informer, and he was followed down the street by seven or eight of them with a crowbar. I remember
that case well. It occurred in Queen-street ; it may be three or four years ago. That is the only case of
quarrelsomeness that I remember.
7002. Did you see the assault committed ? No ; but I saw the Chinese following the man with an iron
bar, and asked for an explanation, and that is what they told me.
7003. The assault had been committed then? Tes ; it had been committed before I came on the scene.
7004. Did you see the unfortunate victim ? Tes ; he was in a terrible state at the time.
7005. Mr. Abigail.'] "What was the nature of the explanation you obtained from the onlookers ? The
people told me that they had followed him up because they thought he was an informer.
7006. Mr. McKillop.~\ "Would you, as a clerical gentleman, like to see the whole of Chinatown cleared of
the keepers of gambling-houses ; — do you think that it would be for the good of the community ? 1
would, for many reasons. In the first place, it would remove an evil from the district, and in the second
place, because the girls who live with the Chinese become prostitutes at night to gailors. They will give
themselves to the Chinese at other times, but every night between 8'30 and 9 o'clock they may be seen
soliciting sailors. The sailors I refer to are men from the ships who happen to be lodging in the
neighbourhood ; and if they had to go very far for the women they would often not go at all. .
7007. I suppose that in that way they contract terrible diseases ? Tes ; I have seen most horrible cases
of disease among these women. I have seen girls with their hands and their faces covered with most
horrible scars.
7008. "Venereal disease, I suppose ? Tes ; but not ordinary venereal, because these women gave them-
selves to the Chinamen, to the blackfellows, and to the sailors, and it is only those who actually visit the
houses where they live who can see them, because the girls I refer to are so far gone in disease that they
never appear in the streets in the middle of the day. 7009.
CHlSfEsE CUMBIJSrG COStMIg'SIOir — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 175'
7009. Then do you think it Js necessary for tie good of the community that medical men should have the Rev. P:
right to examine these' girls? Oh, I think so ; otherwise the disease will spread, and it is the very worst Le Eennetelv -.
form of venereal. ' ->" "*,
7010. Mr. Hawthorne.] Ton have just said, in answer to Mr. McKillop, that yon thought it very necessary 16 Oot" 189i~
that the Government should introduce a system of compulsory inspection of these women ? That is a
debatable point I know. In my country they do that, and by that means they have pretty well stamped
out veuereal disease. There is evidently, therefore, something good to say for it although, I know that
it is1 altogether against British opinions. But for my own part I think this : that those women who have
fallen so low, and who will undoubtedly communicate . their venereal disease to other members of the
community, ought to be examined by medical men, and shut up in a hospital until they are well. That
is my opinion.
7011. You think that for the protection of the general health of the community of Lower George-street
these women ought to be shut up if suffering from venereal disease until they are cured ? Yes ; they are
destroying the health of a lot of people.
7012. You think that in many cases these girls have been ruined by Europeans before the Chinamen got
hold of them at all ? Yes, in very many cases.
7013. You said that Inspector Atwill asked you a few years ago not to proceed with the drawing up of a
Bill to submit to the House, as the police were already preparing one ? Yes.
7014. Has Inspector Atwill ever spoken to you on the subject since then ? Oh, many a time — expressing
his sorrow to see so many young men going into these gambling-houses.
7015. Have you ever had any conversation with him since about the probability of such a Bill being
introduced ? "Well, I spoke to Inspector Atwill about it two or three months ago. I said, " "What about
your Bill ; it has not been brought before Parliament yet," and he replied " Well, I think that legislation
will be brought forward very soon to deal with the question." I should explain that on the former
occasion he did not say that the police had actually prepared a Bill of the kind ; what he did say was this,
that the police were asking that such a Bill should be prepared. That was what I understood.
7016. You also stated that you could not trace more than one or two in a hundred out of your flock
who were addicted to gambling. Are We to take it as your opinion that none of your flock go in for
gambling ? Oh no, that is not what I mean ; I mean that not more than one or two in a hundred go in to
those places.
7017. I suppose the reason is this, that when they once begin a career of gambling they lose all sense of
spiritual health? Yes, they lose all sense of self-respect, and love, and duty.
7018. They cafe for no church then ? Not only for no church but not even for their families. If they
have a family it counts for nothing.
7019. So long as they can get money to gamble with nothing else counts for anything ? Yes ; that is all
they care about.
7020. You said that you heard something from someone who was summoned before the Commission about
a present of furniture to Inspector Atwill ; — from whom did you hear it ? It was from Mr-. Maguire, the
photographer.
7021. President.] He is a very reliable witness, is he not ? Yes ; he knows a great deal about the
Chinese.
7022. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you know anything about any other member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling
League besides Mr. Maguire ? I know Mr. Christensen, and one or two Members of Parliament.
7023. Did it not strike you as being rather strange that nobody should do anything to put down this
Chinese gambling until the deputation from the Anti- Chinese Gambling League waited upon the Colonial
Secretary ? "Well, you see I tried to dojsomething myself. I wanted to introduce a Bill into the House,
amd I went to see the Sub-Inspector of Police about it, saying how fast the evil was spreading, and how
necessary it was that something should be done.
7024. Did the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League previously exhibit a large amount of
interest in regard to moral reform ? No ; I never noticed anything of the kind.
7025. You are aware that they are taking to themselves the credit of having started the insurrection
against the Chinese gambling-houses and other places of immorality in Lower George-street ? Yes.
7026. I suppose that as a clergyman residing in that district for something like twelve years you have
been able to notice a wonderful difference in the residents, as well as in the amount of business done in
the neighbourhood ? "Well, I must say, that the most respectable residents have left the district owing
to the invasion of Chinese gaming-house keepers.
7027. You think then that the principal cause of the respectable residents leaving the district has been
the great influx of this class of Chinese ? Yes ; because it gave the part a bad name, and respectable
people did not care to associate themselves with a place where there was so much gambling that their
friends could hardly come to visit them.
* 7028. But do you think that if the Chinese had been kept away from there the prosperous state that
formerly characterized Lower George-street would have been kept up ? I do not think so — I am
sure of it.
7029. Have you not frequently noticed houses to let for months at a time in Lower George-street ? No ;
I do not remember having seen them.
7030. If a witness told us that he had stated that he had seen houses to let for months at a time down there
he was mistaken ? The only instances of the kind that I can call to mind have been when the houses
have been in the middle of a terrace occupied by Chinamen.
7031. How would you account for the statement made by yourself a little while ago, to the effect that
bonuses had been given by Chinamen to the agents in several instances if shops ever remain vacant for
auy length of time ? Because the Chinese want to scatter themselves. They do not want to be too
near each other. If they are too close together the same cordon of police might surround the two
houses and catch the occupants of each.
7032. Then the object of selecting shops in scattered parts is to give the gamblers every chance to escape ?
Yes ; exactly.
7033. Mr. Kelly stated that the Anti-Chinese Gambling League was the outcome of a number of shop-
keepers who had banded themselves together in order to get rid of the evil. I suppose that before the
Anti- Chinese
176 CHIXESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
E?v. P. Anti-Chinese Gambling League started, the clergymen of all denominations in the district had shown a
Le Rennetel. ,jesire £0 ^ rj,j 0f the evil ? I believe so. I think that we all did our best to put a stop to it.
iffn~T~'iRQi ^034. Did you ever give a hint to any member of the League that you were incapable of dealing with the
c '' ' evil, or of lessening it in any way before they organised the League? I never did. In fact I always
thought that the evil could be coped with by proper legislation.
7035. Tou stated a little while ago that you thought there were about seven or eight Chinese gambling-
houses in Lower George-street. "Would you be surprised to know that some of the witnesses have stated
that there are between thirty and forty ? Yes ; I should be surprised, because that would mean that
nearly all the houses occupied by Chinamen in Lower George-street are gambling-houses. By Lower
George-street I mean all the houses between Bridge-street and Queen's Wharf.
7036. Then arc there many Chinese houses in Lower George-street that you think carry on a legitimate
business ? From my own observation I should say about seven or eight.
7037. Well would you not think that there are more houses occupied by Chinamen in that part of
George-street than fifteen or sixteen — I should certainly think so, and I do not go down there very often ?
Well, there are several shops in which they might do a legitimate business — such as joinering and furni-
ture-making establishments, but there the men work a great deal at the back of the premises. I know a
house there in which they have furniture made.
7038. Mr. Quong Tart.] I have listened to your evidence with a great deal of interest, Father le Bennetel.
I think you have given very straightforward evidence on the question of gambling, and with regard to
opium-smokiDg you say that no evil on earth would come near to it ? That is my opinion.
7039. Tou are a clergyman in a poor part of the city, and necessarily come in contact with a great many
different nationalities — not only Chinamen, but seafaring men and others, from all countries. I want to
ask you whether you have found the lower class of any other nation equal to or worse than the Chinese
you have been referring to ? Well it would not be the same kind of evil that others indulge in. Some
people would be worse than the Chinamen in the matter of theft. Tor instance, amongst blackfellows,
you would find thievery more- prevalent. The Chinese would not rob people unless by means of the
gaming-table. The blacks, especially the Malays, would. As far as sexual corruption is concerned, I
believe that the Chinese would not be worse than any other people if they did not smoke opium, but that
is what degrades them, and makes them give way to all sorts of vices.
7040. The Chinese always have the name of living in crowded houses ? Tes.
7011. Do the lower classes of any other nationality crowd the houses in the same way ? No ; I have not
known many houses tenanted by people of other nationalities where there were so many occupants in the
same house. I knew of a house in Gloucester-street occupied by Cingalese, where there were too many
people — sometimes nine and ten in a room ; but the Chinese overcrowd to a greater extent than that,
because they are not satisfied with one row of beds, but must have one row on the top of the other.
7042. You said that there were six or more respectable merchants in Lower George-street ? Yes.
7043. If the other Chinese residents acted as they acted no one would complain ? No ; nobody would
say a word about it.
7044. You have just said to the President that you know of your own knowledge a great many Europeans
going to the gambling-houses in Lower George-street ; — can you name any particular house as being the
worst? I should know the house if I saw it. For instance, I have seen them .going into Han Ki'e's,
No. 156 (shown in this photograph), and also into the small one (shown in the other photographs). I
have seen a regular stream going in and out.
7045. Do you know Sun Sam Kee's, next to the pawn-shop, on the left-hand side, as you go down the
street ? Yes ; there are a lot of Europeans always going in there.
7046. You say they go in about 1 o'clock? Especially about that hour.
7047. One o'clock in the morning or at mid-day ? One o'clock at mid-day, and at night, about 7 o'clock.
MONDAY, 19 OCTOBER, 1S91.
$ke&mt:—
The Mayor of Sydney (Me,. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Peesident.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., [ QUONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STUABT HAWTHORNE, Esq.
The Eev. Wm. George Taylor called and examined : —
Rev. 7048. Mr. Abigail.'] You are Minister of the York-street Wesleyan Church, Mr. Taylor? Yes.
W. G-. Taylor. 7049. How long have you been there ? It is nearly eight years since I first went there, of which time I was
f-~~s~~' "n two years absent in England and elsewhere.
19 Oct., 1891. 7050. That district embraces a considerable portion of Lower George-street, I believe ? Yes ; my district
extends from Liverpool-street in the south, to the extreme of Miller's Point.
7051. It includes the whole of Lower George-street ? Yes.
7052. You are, I suppose, conversant with the objects of the Commission ? Yes ; I believe so.
7053. We are appointed to inquire into three or four distinct matters, 'arising out of the deputation that
waited on the Premier, about the 30th July last ; in the first place, we are charged with an inquiry as to
certain allegations which have been made against the police of receiving bribes to allow Chinese gambling
to be carried on ; in the second place, to collect information as to the extent of Chinese gambling in the
city ; and following that to deal with the moral and social aspects of the question ; and we have invited you
hereto-day to see what assistance you can render the Commission, in following out these objects. I believe
you were a member of the deputation that waited on Sir Henry Parkes in July last ? Scarcely a member
of the deputation. I was present. I went voluntarily.
7054. And you heard what was said, in reference to the police ? I did.
7055. Several members of the deputation — representatives in Parliament of West Sydney — made state-
ments to the effect that it was a well-known fact that the police were in the habit of receiving bribes from
the Chinese to induce them to wink at the existence of the Chinese gambling-house. Can you give the-
Commission any information on the question? No. All that I would say, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen,
is
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 177
is this :_ That though I was present on the occasion of that deputation the statements that were made about Key-
the police were perfect news to me. W.G. Taylor.
7056. You heard it there for the first time ? Yes ; and it was a very great surprise to me to hear it ; 1cfnY"'i89i
because I had the impression until that day that, although there might have been a want of vigour dis- c "'
played by the police in some matters, they were, in connection with the Chinese gambling evil,
exceedingly vigilant.
7057. Have you had frequent opportunities of observing the police in the execution of their duty in that
part of the town ? Yes ; I think so. I have been very frequently down in that neighbourhood," and have
gone for the express purpose of trying to find out for myself the state of things actually existing.
7058. As a matter of fact you have never heard of the police receiving presents of watches and chains, or
rings, to induce them to allow the gambling to be carried on without interruption ? No ; nothing of the
kind.
7059. And you know nothing of your own personal knowledge to justify any such charge ? No. I may
say further, that I know sufficient of one or two officers of that district to be perfectly convinced in my
own mind that, so far as they are concerned, it is utterly without foundation.
7060. Kindly name the members of the police you specially refer to as being, in your opinion, above sus-
picion ? Inspector Atwill is the officer I know most intimately. I have known him for eight years past.
7061. And your knowledge of him would lead you to the conclusion that he could not be guilty of an act
of that kind? I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that I believe him to be above suspicion in
regard to anything of the kind.
7062. Do you know any other policeman on that beat ? Not personally.
7063. You know something of the Chinese gambling evil, Mr. Taylor ? Yes ; I do, unfortunately.
7064. How have you acquired that knowledge ? In several ways. In the first place, I have been Presi-
dent of the Boys' Club, nearly all the members of which — there were at one time some 300 or 400 lads
connected with the club — live in the district, and I know that to a very great extent all these young
fellows have been exposed at every point to the temptations of Chinese gambling.
7065. Have you known them to indulge in it to any great extent ? Well when we first opened the club
our greatest difficulty was to keep the gambling out of the club-rooms. Many young fellows were so inocu-
lated, as it were, with the gambling spirit that they brought it into the club.
7066. You refer to Chinese gambling ? Yes, more particularly ; but you cannot separate the one from
the other. I have been down in Lower George-street myself, and I have seen a good deal of the Chinese
quarters, my object having been to gather information as to the kind of people who go into these places ;
and I know that the frequenters consist to a very large extent of young lads. I know this from the lads
connected with our club ; the class whom we have tried to influence to adopt a better mode of living are
of the class who go into these places.
7067. Have you seen any women or young girls visiting these places ? No ; I cannot say that I have.
7068. But large numbers of European men are always there, I suppose ? Yes ; working men, and lads —
just such lads as are to be seen in the streets. I have noticed these more particularly.
7069. The habitues of the Chinese gambling-houses consist largely of wharf labourers and seafaring men,
I presume ? Yes. I do not know whether I am allowed to say anything in regard to these places but
what I have seen for myself. But I may state that I am President of a Social Reform League, which deals
with this gambling question. I have fifteen agents in the York-street mission, whose time is wholly
devoted to visiting in the Miller's Point and North Sydney districts, and I am in a position to state that
to a very large extent sailors, especially those on the small craft engaged on the coast, are in the habit
of taking their earnings to the Chinese gambling-houses.
7070. You have gained that impression from the reports of your agents who are engaged visiting the
homes of these peoplte? Yes ; from the reliable reports which come to me officially.
7071. Do you know anything about the law as it affects these gambling-dens? All I know is this, that
I have conversed with Inspector Atwill and other police officers on the subject, and they have always
informed me that the state of the law is so unsatisfactory that they have found themselves nonplussed in
their endeavours to cope with the evil. I will give you one instance : One night when I was in Lower
George-street I saw a man, whom I took to be a sailor from his appearance, going into one of the
gambling-dens. He was considerably under the influence of liquor at the time. He had no money, and
took out his watch to hand it to the man who kept the den, and the watch fell on the ground, the man
beinc very drunk. I was much impressed by the scene, and I spoke to a policeman at the time about it.
His reply was exactly similar to the remarks made to me on the subject by Inspector Atwill ; he told me
the police were practically powerless in the matter, for these people knew the law and could defy them.
He also told me that on one occasion lately he had gone round these houses at night, and turned out fully
200 men and lads from the various dens, but within an hour they were in again. It was, he said, with
extreme difficulty that they could obtain evidence upon which to base a charge.
7072. The police have made it clear to you that there is urgent need for amendment in the law of a
stringent character, to enable them to deal with this evil ? Undoubtedly. I know one of the leading
police officials in speaking on that point, begged of me that whatever influence I might have as an
individual, to use it in the direction of securing an amendment of the law, so that the police could act as
they wished to act.
7073. Did they indicate what form the amendment of the law should take ? The feeling seemed to be
that the police had not sufficient power.
7074. That the police should have greater power as to entering those places ? Yes.
7075. Has it ever been suggested that the owners of these houses should be held responsible— that is,
after due notice being given them, that the tenants carry on gambling-establishments in such houses? I
cannot say that the police have made that suggestion to me ; but I have long held the conviction that
other methods seem to be as a mere scratching of the surface of the evil, and if the Colony is to grapple
with the evil successfully it must be in that direction.
7076. You would make the owners of the houses responsible after due notice ? Yes ; I have studied
the thing for years past, and can see no other way of dealing effectively with that phase of the gambling
question.
7077. Have you heard anything about the amount of money lost and won in these dens, Mr. Taylor ? I
heard the remarkable statements made by the deputation to the Premier, and other things that have beeu
272— Z ' said. .
"^ CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
W Ci TV lo Sa''^ w'^ reSar(l *° *ne working-men who visit these places ; for instance, that it is a common thing for
L^^L r' sailors on receiving their pay for a trip down the coast, instead of taking it home to their wives, to go
19 Oct., 1891. straight to the gambling-dens and empty their pockets there.
707s. Have you been inside these places, and can vou speak as to their sanitary condition, or anything of
that kind ? I have never gone into the gambling-rooms, that is whilst gambling has been going on ; I have
been on the premises.
7079. Has it struck you that the premises have been particularly clean and wholesome, or the reverse ?
Some of those I have visited have been little better than fever-beds in my judgment.
7080. You noticed bad smells and a filthy state of things generally? Tes ; they were in a wretched
condition, the wonder to me has been that the occupants have been able to live in them.
708 1. Some of them are occupied as lodging-houses, are they not ? I do not know that.
7082. Have you not seen a number of people about when you have visited some of theae places ? I know
that a large number of Chinese residents congregate in them, but nothing further.
7083. Has it occurred to you that they are overcrowded ? Tes, that is my impression.
7081. Do you think that in any amendment of the law relating to these places they should be compelled
to give the same amount of accommodation as is provided in European establishments of a similar character?
Yes. I do not see why it should be otherwise. I think all foreigners coming to an English settlement
should conform to the laws of the country.
7085. If such an amendment of the law were adopted it would materially improve the health of the com-
munity ? Certainly. If our medical authorities state that so many feet of air or breathing space is
necessary to the European it must I presume be necessary to the Chinaman.
7086. Have you heard anything as to immorality in connection with these Chinese dens, or have your
agents reported as to that? Unfortunately they have. But I do not know in what form I can present it
to the Commission. Perhaps I had better state it in this way : I have four or five young men, evangelists,
and ten young ladies, who give the whole of their time to visiting such places, and one young man has for
some time past given considerable time to working among the Chinese, and his reports to me of the
state of immorality are simply shocking — of lads and girls in considerable numbers being housed in one
place, and that sort of thing.
7087. Do they report to you the use of opium-smoking among Europeans to any extent ? No, nothing
definite, lleports have been brought to me that such is the case, but I cannot furnish any definite infor-
mation on that point.
7088. It has been reported to you that a number of young European girls have been living among the
Chinamen ? Yes. I do not venture to give the exact figures, but 1 think there were eight or nine young
girls, one of my agents saw, in one of these rooms on one occasion.
7089. You are speaking now of what came under his personal observation ? Yes. I speak from memory
as to the number.
7090. At any rate you have no doubt whatever as to the need of some very stringent law to deal with the
state of things existing in that part of the city ; and I suppose you bear in mind that such a law would
beneficially affect any other parts of the city where the Chinese congregate in considerable numbers ? My
conviction is simply this : That what we need in this Colony is a comprehensive anti-gambling law that
will deal with the whole community ; not only with the Chinese, but with all phases of the gambling evil ;
because what applies to the Chinese gambling-dens will apply equally to the tobacconists' shops and
places of that description, where gambling, in one form or another, is carried on.
7091. Does question of immorality in the way you have described enter into these European establish-
ments to the same extent as in the Chinese gambling-dens ? I do not think so.
7092. President.] Explain why there should be any more immorality in connection with Chinese gambling
as compared with European gambling. Opium-smoking, I take it, is quite apart from Chinese gambling ?
Yes. I have stated that I believe there is a considerable amount of ^immorality practised in connection
with the Chinese gambling-dens, and I know for a fact such is the case amongst the Chinese in the back
streets. I can see that there are greater temptations to immoral proceedings in connection with the Chinese
gambling-houses than among the ''totes," because the latter are carried on in shops among the business
places, and are closed at night, the proprietors mostly living elsewhere, and immorality cannot to the same
extent be carried on in the daytime ; whereas the Chinese live on their premises, and their places are
open night and day, and they are very different in consequence of that.
7093. Mr. Abigail.'] So you believe any amendment of the law should be of a comprehensive character,
including Europeans as well as Chinese ? I am sure of it.
7094. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do not you think that the Europeans in the matter of gambling are quite as bad
as the Chinese ? Yes. My impression is that the great majority of those who visit the Chinese gambling-
dens are Europeans.
7095. You think they are kept going by the patronage of the European population ? Unquestionably.
7096. Have you ever been inside one of these Chinese gambling-dens when they have been playing fan-
tan? No.
7097. You have never seen the game played ? No.
7098. Have you, in the course of your ministerial life in the city, ever met with anybody within the limits
of your mission who has assumed to know that presents or bribes have been given to the police, to induce
them to keep dark the Chinese gambling or other immoral practices ? I never heard of anything of the
kind.
7099. Did it very much surprise you to hear the statements which were made by members of the deputa-
tion to the Premier to that effect, or did you think those statements were exaggerated ? I had no evidence
to go upon, either for or against. The whole, thing was a revelation to me.
7100. Did the members of the deputation, while in the ante-room and before going to the Premier, have
any conversation as to which part of the question each should touch upon ? I cannot say. The deputa-
tion was in the Minister's room when I arrived. I had no communication with them beforehand. I went
voluntarily and independently.
7101. You are aware it very often occurs, when a deputation is to wait upon a Minister, that previous to
going into the room the speakers are arranged, to take up the different phases of the subject ? Yes.
7102. And that was not done in this case ? Not to my knowledge.
7103. So that the statements referred to came upon vou as a surprise ? Quite.
7104.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 179'
7104. So far as you know, Mr. Atwill and the members of the police force under his control in that Rev.
portion of the city, are above suspicion as regards receiving tribes ? I cannot speak for the ordinary w- &• Taylor,
policemen, because I do not know them ; but I believe Mr. Atwill to be above suspicion, and I speak /^*-*""*
from an intimate knowledge of him, having known him intimately for eight years. *
7105. Eegarding the immorality in your portion of the city, Mr. Taylor ;— is it, in your opinion, worse
there than in other parts of the city, where the Chinese are not so numerous ? I do not think for one
moment that there is more immorality amongst the Chinese, judging from my intercourse with the people,
than there is among the lower class of Europeans. It is about six of one and half-a-dozen of the other.
7106. Do you think the depravity at present existing in Lower George-street is attributable to the
presence^ of so many Chinese in that neighbourhood ? In part it is, of course. Wherever the gambling-
element is it must have a pernicious effect upon the neighbourhood, and that to a very alarming extent.
7107. Have you met with many cases of distress among the wives and families of the labouring class,
whose impoverished state has been brought about by the head of the house spending all the money in
these gambling-houses ? Yes. If I had had time I could have supplied you with names and facts ad
nauseam as to that.
7108. You have met with many such cases of distress ? Through my workers I have known of a great
number.
7109. And personally ? Yes.
7110. Mr. Quong TartP[ You say you have had conversations with the police about the difficulty of
putting down this evil; — when ? Some time before this question arose — about twelve months ago. I had
long conversation with Mr. Atwill on the subject.
7111. How many different nationalities, do you think, gamble with the Chinese ? I cannot say. My
fear is that it is the youth of our own city who are most seriously affected. My experience among these
places is that frequenters of them are, for the most part, the youth of our own city and working-men,
many of whom, I presume, are sailors— Swedes and Danes, as well as Englishmen.
7112. How many persons have been ruined through visiting these places within your knowledge ? I
could not say from my memory ; but I know that one of the greatest difficulties we have to contend
against in our work in that part of the city is that so many people have been injured by drink and
gambling.
7113. Do you know of any cases of opium-smoking ? No.
7114. Which do you think the greater evil, drinking or opium-smoking ? Drunkenness is more wide-
spread.
7115. That is among the Europeans ? Yes.
7116. And among the Chinese, opium-smoking ? Yes, I should think so, but I have no evidence to
furnish on the point.
7117. In your mission work among the young lads you say you have had a great difficulty in keeping
them from gambling ? Yes, that was when the club was first started — we gathered 300 or 400 of these
lads from the streets, and they brought their packs of cards with them. ¥e found them hidden behind
the doors and screens, and so forth.
7118. Eegarding the women you say who have been seen in the Chinese quarters which would you blame
most, the women or the Chinamen ? I should blame them both.
7119. Do you think they are generally bad women before they go to the Chinese houses, or have they
lost their virtue after going there ? I think for the most part they are lost women before they go to
these places.
7120. What would you do to stop this particular evil ? All that we can do is to pass stringent laws to
apply to such cases. It can never otherwise be stamped out entirely. I have lived long enough to come
to that conclusion.
7121. You consider the police do their duty, but think the law is not sufficient ? I would like to answer
that question carefully. I do not know that the police do not do their duty. I can only state what I
know personally, but I have arrived at the conclusion that the police of the city as a body ought to have
exhibited a greater amount of energy than they have shown. My impression is that the law ought to be
so framed that it would be easier for the police to get into these places ; that the police should have more
power. But I am perfectly convinced in my own mind that whatever law is passed it will have to reach
the landlords in the first place to be effectual, making it a penal offence to own a building used for
gambling purposes.
7122. You have said that you knew a case of a sailor who went into a gambling-house, and was so drunk
that he actually dropped his watch on the ground ; — do you know what place that was ? I cannot swear
to the exact shop. There are two or three shops down there very much alike. I can go very near to it,
but cannot tell the name of the occupant.
7123. Have you any idea of the number of Chinese gambling-ho uses in Lower George-street? I heard
it stated at the deputation, but I do not remember the number. I never counted them. I know there
are a large number.
7124. Do you know any of the respectable Chinese in that quarter ? I am not personally acquainted
with them, but I know there are some.
7125. Do you know any other police officials personally besides Inspector Atwill ? No.
7126. Do you know what rents are paid for the houses in Lower George-street ? I have heard statements
made by one or two of the occupiers.
7127. Do you know if rents have been on the increase or decrease there of late years ? I cannot answer •
that question. I understand that the landlords are able to get a larger rental from the Chinese than from
the European business people. One or two of the tradespeople down there have stated so to me. One
went so far as to say that he was almost made bankrupt through being made to pay a large rent for a
shop that was next door to his own shop, the front door of which, in fact, was so near to his own that had
it been let to Chinese it would have practically ruined his business, and so he was compelled to rent
it for his own protection. He kept the place closed for a considerable time rather than have a Chinese
neighbour, and it nearly made him bankrupt.
7128. From what you have gathered as to the landlords being able to obtain a higher rent from the
Chinese than from the European residents, and looking to the number of Chinese in the neighbourhood,
I suppose it would be only fair to assume that the rents have been on the increase, rather than the other
way
180 CIIINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION- — MIXTTTES OF EVIDENCE.
Rev. Way about, would it not ? That is the point they have stated very definitely ; and one or two instances
W. O. Taylor. ^aye ^een meiltion.ed in which the Chinese offered the landlords a Very considerable amount over and above
to'Tm^'isqi what other people were prepared to pay, by way of a bonus, in order to get the premises.
' 7129. Do you know of any cases of respectable females being insulted by the Chinese down Lower
George-street ? No.
7130. Do you know that the passenger traffic of Lower George-street has been considerably reduced of
late years through the Chinese flocking into that portion of the city ? I have no evidence of the kind to
give the Commission, but I can quite believe it would be so. I believe that a very much larger number
of people go up Pitt-street from Circular Quay than go up George-street.
7181. Is that because Pitt-street is a shorter route, do you think ? I cannot say.
7132. Has it occurred to you that people do not travel up George-street because of the noxious smells
that pervade that portion of the city ? I cannot otherwise account for it.
7133. Do you know the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League? Not personally.
7134. Do you know Mr. Nock, of Pelton and Nock ? Yes ; he is the only one of the League I do know.
7135. Do you regard Mr. Nock as a straightforward man ? Tes ; exceedingly so.
713G. Would you take him to be a man of extremely excitable temperament, and liable to exaggerate ?
No ; I have seen nothing of the kind to warrant that conclusion.
7137. Do you know of any serious cases of destitution where families have applied to you for assistance,
and the wives have stated that their husbands continually gambled away their earnings ; — have any cases of
that description come under your notice ? Yes ; as I said in answer to Mr. Hawthorne, if I had time,
I could, I believe, bring a long list of such cases. In connection with the Central Mission we are simply
at our wits end to know what to do to relieve the cases of that kind. My workers come to me day after
day to know what to do to relieve the poor and destitute in this district. We have ladies who come down
every Tuesday morning to investigate the cases of distress caused by gambling, drink, and other causes.
7138. Have you noticed the white paper notices posted up outside the Chinese shops in Lower George-
street — like those you see on the photographs before you ? Yes ; I have been often curious to know
what they meant, and have been sorry that I had no one to translate them for me.
7139. Would you be surprised to know that they announce that gambling is carried on inside day and
night ? Not in the slightest ; I should be quite prepared to believe that it was so.
7140. Do you think if such notices were placed outside European places of business, that the police
would charge the tenant of the premises with keeping a common gaming-house ? I should think so
indeed.
7141. Do you not think the police, knowing well that they have a Government Interpreter at command,
should have made it their business to ascertain the meaning of these notices, especially in view of the
well known reputation of the houses themselves ? I presume they do. I know from conversation with
them that they know what is going on in these places.
7142. Is it not strange that the police take action against the persons who allow " totes" to be carried on in
their premises against the law, and yet take no notice of these Chinese gambling-houses which are carried
on so openly ? Certainly ; I put the same point exactly to one of the policemen in Lower George-street
and he said that fan-tan was so different from the ordinary gambling arrangements in connection with the
" totes," that they found it exceedingly' difficult to take action upon it. That was stated before the late
raids, and therefore I suppose the police were wrong.
7143. Do you remember any raids being made upon Chinese gambling-dens, previous to the last one ? I
do not remember. I have heard of one or two Chinese gambling raids ; but not in Lower George-street,
I think.
7144. Does it occur to you, in view of those successful raids, that the police should have put the law in
motion against the gamblers who have been carrying on so openly in Lower George-street ? I think so,
certainly.
7145. Now, this is a pertinent question : Do not you think there must have been dereliction on the part
of somebody in that district to have allowed the gambling evil to be on the increase there for the last
four or five years ? That has been my feeling, as I stated in answer to one of the other gentlemen, of the
Commission. I believe there has been neglect on the part of the police force right through the ranks, from
the Inspector- General downwards. There ought to have more repressive agencies employed for years past.
7146. Have you ever been in America, Mr. Taylor ? No.
7147. Do you consider it would be advisable that the Chinese— and especially that class of the race more
immediately under consideration — should be confined to one particular part of the city, instead of being
scattered over different parts of it as at present ? I do not think so. I think they keep pretty well
together now, and I think perhaps that is one reason why there is so much of it, that is, the gambling
and so forth. The Chinese have got into districts of their own. I believe there would not be anything
like so much gambling if the conditions were different.
7148. You think they should be more scattered ? Yes ; that is my feeling. If they were kept in one
part of the city together, the whole of them, the evil would be far greater, unless you kept a posse of
police continually on guard to keep the Europeans away.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. David Hip called and examined : —
Mr. D. Kip. 7149. Mr. McKillop.] What are you, Mr. Eip ? I am a van proprietor.
<— -*— -^ 7150. "Where do you reside ? At 56, Kent-street.
19 Oct., 1891. 7i5i_ A.re y0U a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? No.
7152. Did you never attend any of its meetings? Never.
7153. Did you at any time, in conversation with some members of the League, give them any information
or speak with them relative to the Chinese gambling carried on in Lower George-street ? No. The only thing
I remember having mentioned was to Mr. Nock. I said to him, "You remember Quealy, the policeman
who was dismissed ; there is a rumour going about— I hear people say, ' Quealy has done a fine thing ;
he has got £600 or £700.' " It was this way : I live on Miller's Point, and passing down the street I
saw a crowd collected, and I went in the same as the rest. Then I heard someone say, " Quealy has got
£675 or £670 ; he has drawn that amount of money out of the bank and is going home." That was all
I heard. 7154,
■CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EYIBENCE. 181
7154. Did you at any lime have a conversation with Mr. Black, a Member of Parliament ? No. ^r- D- ElP>
7155. Not at any time ? Not that I am aware of. i (Trw *~"irqi
7156. Do you know anything of the police having been bribed or given presents~of any kind ? Not the c ■>
slightest ; I know nothing about them in any way.
7157. Mr. Abigail.'] Have you never visited the Chinese gambling-places yourself ? Never in my life.
7158. President.'] Are you quite sure you never had a conversation with Mr. George Black? I do not
know him.
7159. Do you remember having a conversation with anyone on the Circular Quay stand, and giving him
information about the Chinese gambling-houses ? No.
7160. Did you ever say to any man, on the stand or anywhere else, that you had 'reason to believe that
the police connived at the Chinese gambling ? I remember nothing whatever of the kind.
716L. "Would it be probable that you said such a thing ? I do not see why I should.
7162. I am simply asking you the question— I take it that you are a man of sober habits ; you look like
it ? I have been thirteen years a teetotaller.
7163. And you think you would not have been likely to say anything that would give colour to the idea
that you had reason to believe that the police took bribes to allow of Chinese gambling to be carried on?
"Well, I have heard such things said, and I may have said something of the kind, but I certainly do not
remember it.
7164. Do you know Inspector Atwill? I know him by sight.
7165. Tou are not personally acquainted with him ? Not more than to bid him good day, or anything
of that kind.
7166. However you are quite sure you never told Mr. Black, or anyone else down there, that Ex-
Constable Quealy drew £600 or £700 from the bank ? No, I did not.
7167. You did say something of the kind to Mr. Nock? Tes— what I have told you.
7168. Had you any idea how he came by such a sum of money ? Tes, I had ; not out of his wages.
7169. Give us your idea ? Well, I do not think a man would be able to save it.
7170. Mr. Abigail.] He could not save- it out of a common constable's wages, you think ? No ; I should
think not.
7171. President.] Do you know which bank Quealy was supposed to have drawn the money out of ? No.
As I have said, I was (passing a number of persons in the street and overheard the conversation I have
related, and repeated it to Mr. Nock.
7172. Mr. Abigail.] As a matter of fact, you do not know that he did withdraw the money ? No ; Mr.
Nock was speaking to me about this affair, and I mentioned what I had heard.
7178. Now listen to what Mr. Black has stated before this Commission : — He was asked by Mr. McKillop
this question : " I believe yifu have seen it published in a weekly paper that a constable who has been dis-
missed from the force had a large emount of money in the bank ; — do you know for a positive fact that he
had the money to his credit?" and Mr. Black replied : " That information was supplied to me by the van-
man, David Bip, whose name I have mentioned." Is that the case ? No ; I remember nothing of the
kind.
7174. Mr. McKillop.] Where is your stand ? I have the privilege of the Manly Beach boats, and go very
little on the stand at all.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. E. A. Swinbourne called and examined :—
7175. President.] Tou are a bootmaker ? Tes. Mr. E. A.
7176. Where do you live ? At 217, George-street. Swinbourne.
7177. I suppose you take some interest in the police in regard to the Chinese gambling-houses in Lower , \
George-street? Tes. ' 19 Oct., 1891.
717S. Tou regard them, the gambling-houses, as a nuisance to you in the conduct of your business ? Tes.
7179. Tou were concerned in the agitation to suppress these gambling-houses ? Tes.
7180. Tou are a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? I am.
7181. Do you remember some twelve months ago, having a conversation with Inspector Atwill, when you
interpreted to him the notices which appear outside the Chinese gambling-houses, as to fan-tan being
carried on day and night ; did you translate those notices to Inspector Atwill, or tell him the effect of
them? Not twelve months ago.
7182. How long was it ? Since we formed the League. A Chinese merchant told me that the notice
was to the effect that gambling was carried on night and day ; and, in conversation, I informed not only
Inspector Atwill, but other police, too, about it.
7183. When was that ? A couple of months ago, perhaps.
7184. Was it before or since the appointment of this Commission ? I cannot say that, but it is since we
formed the League — very recently.
7185. The League is not much older than the Commission ? No.
7186. It is not true that you told this to Inspector Atwill twelve months ago ? No.
7187. It was within the last three months ? Tes.
7188. And you told him the meaning of the notices ? Tes.
7189. Mr. Abigail^ What did Inspector Atwill say when you told him that ? I cannot say, but I
remember that he did not seem to think there was anything in it. I told him he could easily find out by
getting an interpreter to read them.
7190. Did he say he would do so ? No; be did not seem to take much notice of it. I have often had
conversations with members of the police force about these matters, but I do not remember the words.
7191. Did the police, when you had these conversations with them, seem desirous to stop the whole
thing ? No ; some of them seemed to be quite the reverse, to my idea.
7192! How long have you lived down there ? I shall have been in business eleven years next February,
and I lived there nine years previously.
7193. That makes twenty years you have been living in that part of the city ? Tes. I was in the
Artillery for nine years.
7194. Then you have seen the growth of the Chinese gambling-houses down there ? Tes.
7195,
19 Oct., 1891.
182 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. E. A. 7195. Has that growth been rapid ? It was until recently.
Swmbourne. 7lg6 There hag beeQ & falling off recently p Tes.
7197. Has that been since the appointment of the Commission ? Yes — since that, and the formation of
the League.
7198. Then, before the League was formed and the Commission appointed, it was in full swing ? Yes ;
it was.
7199. "What class of men usually frequent these places ? Those who mostly visit them are wharf
labourers, coal-lumpers, and sailors.
7200. Do youths or boys visit them ? I have seen lads go in.
7201. And girls ? I have seen women about the place, right opposite my premises. "Whether they
are married to the Chinese I cannot say. I have seen several women about, but they have disappeared
lately.
7202. You think there is still room for improvement ? Oh, yes.
7203. You would like to see them rooted out entirely ? Yes ; because they spoil business altogether.
7204. Do you think they taint the moral atmosphere also ? I do.
7205. Is the sanitary condition of these places generally good ? I cannot say that — I have not been
inside to see. Judging from appearances outside, I should say there has lately been an improvement in
that way too.
7206. There has been a run on scrubbing brushes ? Yes ; though they do not appear to be very clean
from what I can see, except the Chinese merchants, like On Chong, Sun Kum Tiy, and places like that.
They are quite unobjectionable. It is the gambling-houses I am speaking about.
7207. Are most of the places down there gambling-houses ? Yes ; some of them have the shutters up
all day, and no lights in the evening except inside.
7208. There is no difficulty in recognising these places as gambling-houses, you think ? No; you cannot
help knowing it.
7209. And the police cannot help knowing it? No.
7210. But, in your opinion, they never show any anxiety to deal with it ? No.
7211. Do you know how many raids have been made by the police during five years ? Three, I think.
7212. "Was each one of those a success ? I never heard of one being a failure.
7213. That is to say, the parties who were arrested were convicted ? I think there was one case in
which they failed to get a conviction. I believe it was something to do with the warrant being wrongly
dated.
7214. That would be the fault of the police authorities ? Yes.
7215. It was not because of failure to prove that gambling had been carried on ? No ; I believe not.
7216. If they could make three raids in five years, and succeed in their prosecution of the defendants,
does it occur to you that they might have made twelve raids during the same period ? I should think so ;
in fact I have often mentioned the same thing to members of the police, and I have pointed out that
even if the raids were to some extent unsuccessful, they would be a check upon the evil, I considered.
7217. You have frequently complained to the police ? Yes ; not exactly as a matter of complaint, but in
the way of conversation.
7218. Have you thought of any amendment of the law that would be the means of effectually suppressing
this evil ? There is one way I have thought perhaps would be effectual. I am told they do it in San
Francisco. That is, for the police authorities to be given power to go into these places and arrest all
persons they find there.
7219. You mean without the form of a warrant ? Yes ; so long as they know it is a gambling-house.
7220. Has it ever suggested itself to you that the landlords of these houses should be held responsible,
after due notice being given that the places were being used for gambling purposes ? Yes ; I think that
would help to stop it, too.
7221. After due and proper warning that illegal proceedings were being conducted in a house by the
tenants of it, the owner of such house should be held responsible ? Yes ; that would be a very good idea,
I think.
7222. Do you think the Chinese houses in that locality are very much overcrowded — some of them that
are supposed to be lodging-houses ? They are all about the same, it seems to me.
7223. Well do you think it would be an advantage if they were compelled to give a certain amount of
air space to each lodger ? I think so. I cannot say of my own knowledge what the interior arrange-
ments of these houses are like — I only go from hearsay ; but I know there appears to be a considerable
number in each house.
7224. But you are of opinion that they should be brought under some provision, or subject to certain
regulations of that kind — that the Chinese lodging-houses should provide the same accommodation as to
space as is required of European houses of the same description ? Yes.
7225. Have you heard anything of the police receiving bribes or presents of any kind ? Only from
hearsay.
7226. It was a matter of common rumour ? Yes ; that is since the deputation waited upon the
Government.
7227. Did you never hear of it before the deputation ? Never.
7228. Then you were very much surprised when you heard the statement made at the deputation ? When
I say I never heard of it before, I do not mean that I heard nothing of the kind, because I had heard
insinuations thrown out, but nothing definite.
7229. You know nothing of your own knowledge that would sustain a charge of that kind against the
police ? Nothing at all.
7230. Do you think the police have been paid to overlook or connive at this Chinese gambling ? I should
not like to say that.
7231. Do you think it strange that the gambling-shops are allowed to carry on, although the police are
passing up and down in front of them every day ? Yes, I do.
7232. Would the general public draw from that the inference that these gambling-house keepers pay for
the immunity from police interference which they enjoy ? Yes ; that is what I hear. People will say,
" There must be something in it," or something to that effect.
7233. Have you heard, or do you know, that some members of the police force on that beat have acquired
considerable property ? Only from hearsay. 7234.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 183
7234. Do you know any member of the force who has a terrace of houses ? I have heard that Mr. E. A.
Sergeant Higgins has, but I do not know of my own knowledge anything about it. Swinbourne,
7235. Of your own knowledge, do you know anything that would sustain the statements made by members , qTTT*-^-,
oi the deputation to Sir Henry Parkes, about the police having received bribes, or presents of gold '
watches, or diamond rings, or anything of the kind ? Not of my own knowledge.
7236. Mr. McKillop.'] Are you a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Yes.
7237. Do you hold any official position in connection with it ? No.
7238. Have you seen any riots occur outside these Chinese gambling-dens ? I have seen plenty of rows-
fights, and all that kind of thing, repeatedly.
7239. Where men have been maltreated, and struck with iron bars or bludgeons ? Tes ; I have.
7240. Have you ever seen women— wives of working-men— going down there to beseech their husbands
to leave the gambling-dens, where they were losing all their earnings ? Yes ; and have had them come
to my shop, and ask me to let them stay there and watch for their husbands to come out.
7241. Have you noticed children going into the Chinese houses to purchase pak-ah-pu tickets ? I have had
men tell me that they sent children in to try their luck. I have not seen children going in as a common thing.
7242. Do you think the gambling evil has been on the increase during the last three years ? I do not
know that it has been on the increase. It has just been about as bad as it is now.
7243. Was it as bad five years ago, do you think ? Hardly. No ; I do not think it was.
7244. Can you inform the Commission of the number of Chinese dens in that locality ? There are over
twenty, I should say.
7245. Has the passenger traffic of Lower G-eorge-street fallen off greatly in recent years ? Yes.
7246. At one time, I suppose, the passenger traffic from Manly Beach, North Shore, Watson's Bay, and
such places, came by way of George-street ? Yes, principally. There used to be a good deal more than
there has been lately.
7247. In your opinion, to what is that falling off of traffic attributable ? One reason is the absence of
shops to attract people there. No proper business places ; and also numbers of people do not like going
down there at all because of the Chinese— the character of the place. Men have told me that their wives
do not care about going down there.
7248. Have you heard of respectable females being insulted by the Chinese down there ? Yes ; I have
complained about it in the case of a man opposite to my place, always whistling and chirping after the women.
7249. Does he do it now ? No.
7250. He discontinued it after your complaint ? Yes.
7251. Do you think, if Europeans kept gambling-houses there, and had these placards outside, announcing
that gambling was carried on day and night, that the police would swoop down upon them and put the
law in motion ? I think they would certainly.
7252. Does it not appear strange to you that these places have been on the increase, and that the police
have taken so very little notice of them ? It does appear strange.
7253. You known that where " totes" have been run by Europeans the police have been on their track right
throughout the city, but that for some reason or the other the Chinese have been able to carry on their
fan-ian shops with impunity ? Yes ; that appears to be so.
7254. Are you of opinion, seeing that the Chinese are allowed such latitude, that there must be something
radically wrong somewhere ? I should say so.
7255. Do you think the police have done their duty in the past ? They have not, I consider.
7256. Would you care to express' an opinion as to whether there has not been something else besides a
mere neglect of duty ? 1 do not care about expressing an opinion — I do not know.
7257. But you think the circumstances are suspicious P Yes ; I do.
7258. If a publican was breaking the law, and the police knew of it but did not interfere, I suppose the
first idea that would occur to an ordinary man's mind would be that the publican was very kind to the
police ? Yes.
7259. And I suppose the same thing would apply to these gambling-houses ? Yes.
7260. Do you know anything of the amount of opium-smoking carried on in your end of the town ? I
have no idea.
7261. Do you think the presence of these Chinese shops has affected your business during the last five
years ? It has.
7262. Will you inform the Commission of the extent to which your business has depreciated since this
gambling evil has been on the increase ? During the last couple of years it has decreased, I should say,
about 20 or 30 per cent. I could not tell you with certainty unless I had my books to refer to ; but I
know it has decreased considerably.
7263. At a rough guess you would say 20 or 30 per cent. ? Yes.
7264. What rent do you pay ? £3 per week.
7265. Have you paid that all along ? Yes.
7266. Had you a long lease ? No ; I rent from week to week.
7267. Who is your landlord ? Mr. Wentworth. I may explain : he own four shops there, and I am one
of his oldest tenants. I started at £3, and he never raised the rent. The three houses next to me were
rented at £3 also, until new tenants came in, and he then raised them 10s.
7268. Do you know any instance of the Chinese paying a bonus to secure premises there? I have had
Chinese come in and want to buy me out.
7269. Did they state any given amount? Yes ; they told me they would give £40 or £50.
7270. Can you give us the names of any of the Chinese you refer to ? No ; I do not know them.
7271. Do you know if they wished to carry on a legitimate business? They did not tell me. Two or
three years ago there was "a great demand by Chinese for shops in that locality, more than there is now,
and rents went up. The Chinese bought several peopleout down that way.
7272. In your long acquaintance with that portion of George-street you must of necessity have seen
large numbers of Chinese domiciled in some of these houses ? I have.
7273. Would you care about domiciling the same number of persons in your house ? No ; I would not.
7274. Do you know anything about the extent of immorality that is carried on in Lower George-street ?
I cannot say anything about that.
7275. Are you acquainted with any other portion of the city where the Chinese are resident ? No.
7275.
184 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. E. A. 7270. Do you know a person named Gouldtown ? I have seen him at two meetings of our League.
Swinboume. 7277. it was he who supplied you with some valuable information respecting the Chinese gambling, I
100*7^1891 believe ? I was not present then.
c ■' ' 7278. Have you heard where he is now ? No ; I have not.
7279. Have you ever noticed any policemen on that beat wearing valuable jewellery, of a kind that you
would think unbecoming in men receiving the pay of an ordinary policeman ? I have seen them with
jewellery, but I did not think whether it was unbecoming or not. It never struck me in that way. Some
people are fond of jewellery, you know, and will wear it, though they are not really in a position to buy
it or afford it.
72S0. Has it ever come within your knowledge that any of the police who were fond of jewellery discon-
tinued wearing it because remarks on the subject created a scare amongst them ? No ; I will not say that.
7281. Have you had a conversation with Inspector Atwill during the last few weeks ? No ; I have seen
him, but have not spoken to him.
7282. Not in relation to this gambling-house question ? No.
7283. Have you had a conversation with any other policeman ? I have had a chat with them as they have
gone past. Some of them are customers of mine.
7284<. Do you know ex-Constable Quealy ? Tes.
7285. Do you know whether he lately withdrew a large sum of money from the bank ? I have heard of
it. I have heard that he started a hotel, or something, m "Woolloomooloo, but I do not know that it is the
case myself.
7286. Have the rents been on the increase in Lower George-street within the last few years ? Tes.
7287. Then if anyone has stated that rents have been decreasing that would not be correct ? They may
have been just lately.
7288. If anyone has stated that rents in Lower George-street have been on the decrease during the last
few years, would that be correct or not ? Not within the last few years, it would not, certainly. At the
present time they may be decreasing, because I see several empty shops there lately, but during the last
lew years I should say they have been on the increase decidedly.
[The witness withdrew.]
Memorandum : — If an Act was passed making it illegal to sell pak-ah-pu tickets, I think it would be the means of
closing numbers of these Chinese gambling-houses.
To the Secretary Chinese Gambling Commission. E. A. SWINBOUKNE.
Lin Tow called and examined : —
Lin Yow. 7289. Mr. Hawthorne.] What are you ? I sell tickets for the lottery.
•' — —*-" —* 7290. Is that the occupation you usually follow ? I have been selling tickets for the last fifteen months ;
19 Oct., 1891. Defore that I was working in a store in Goulburn-street.
7291. Whose store? Tiy Sing Loong's.
7292. Do you find the gambling business pay better than being in a store ? I always used to work in a
store, but I got sick, and left because I could not do heavy work.
7293. How are you paid — so much per week, or a commission? I am paid a commission.
7294. What commission do you receive ? Ten per cent, on all winnings.
7295. Tou make 2s. out of every £ of the winnings ? Tes ; and no win no commission.
7296. Does the bank pay you nothing ? No.
7297. Tou only get 10 per cent, on the winning of persons outside the bank? Tes.
7298. How much do you average per week ? Sometimes £2 or £3 ; sometimes, if there is very good luck, I
have made £30.
7299. What is the largest amount you have made in any one week ? Over £30.
7300. Have you ever made £50 ? No.
7301. Or £40 ? No ; I never made that much.
7302. Did not you make £135 on one occasion ? That was not commission — that was a win. I took a
ticket myself.
7303. Tou took a share yourself when you got the £135 ? Tes.
7304. Do you often do that ? Tes ; I often do that.
7305. How often have you been a winner ? I have won more than £100.
7306. How much did you win altogether last year? Sometimes £5, sometimes £10, and sometimes £20.
7307. What was the largest amount you won — did you win £300 with another man ? Tes. Taking off
some of the smaller wins — five marks and six marks — it was £267.
7308. What was the exact amount of money you won on that occasion ? I gave him £135 of it.
7309. That was not half ? He is an old friend of mine, and I gave him a few pounds more than the half
share after the expenses were taken off.
7310. Do the police ever trouble you in Lower George-street ? Sometimes they come in and clear the
fellows out.
7311. Do you play fan-tan as well ? No.
7312. Is there not a fan-tan shop in the place where you are located? There was one, but not now.
7313. How long has it been closed ? Since the raid was made on Moy Ping's.
7314. Now are you quite sure it was not in existence when the Commission started? I cannot exactly
remember how long.
7315. How many weeks is it since it was stopped ? About six weeks.
7316. They do not play at all there now ? No.
7317. What is the reason — are they frightened of the police going in, or are they frightened of the
Commission ? They are frightened of the police for one thing, and for another they have no capital.
7318. Will not your countrymen go in for fan-tan or pak-ah-pu now ? No.
7319. They will not invest any money ? No.
7320. How do you manage to do now ? There is a cook-shop, and fruit-shop there. The cook-shop pays
25s. a week, the fruit-shop is 10s. a week, and my share is 30s. a week. The rent is £3 10s. altogether.
7321. Tou have only accounted for £2 5s. ; — who pays the other 5s. ? That comes out of the pocket of
the man who lets the place.
7322. Who lets the place ? I do not knpw whp the landlord is. 7323,
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OB EVIDENCE. 185
7323. Do you mean to say you live in the house and do not know who the landlord is ? "We give the lin Yow.
money to Way Kee. iqn*t^T8Qi
7324. Then you rent the place ? No ; I pay to another of my countrymen ; he keeps the cook-shop — la uct-> 1{m#
Shing Kee.
7325. Do you know Inspector Atwill ? No ; I have not been there long.
7326. Do the police ever come in to see you now ? No.
7327. How long is it since they have paid a visit to your place ? It is about five or six weeks ago — they
came in to clear the men out.
7328. "Were they playing fan-tan ? No ; not fan-tan — the tickets.
7329. Did the police clear them out when they saw them buying lottery-tickets ? Tes.
7330. "Who is the man that kept the fan-tan shop up to five or six weeks ago ? The shop was kept by a
company of ten persons.
7331. "Who was the principal ? I do not know the name of the boss, they had all got an equal share.
7332. Can you not give the names of some of them that kept this shop you speak of ? They have
knocked off now : Duck Chong, "Wong Tun, Duck Hong, Chun Tiy, Kee On, Ah Diy. These are all I
can think of.
7333. Had you not a 'share yourself ? No.
7334. Are you quite sure ? Tes. I was two or three years ago in a fan-tan place, but I have not had
one for some time.
7335. "Where are they all living now — the men you have mentioned ? Chun Tiy is in Sydney, acting as
a cook ; Ah Diy is hawking ; "Wong Tun, Kee On, Duck Hing, and Duck Chong are doing nothing.
7336. Then four out of the six you have mentioned are now living on their means ? All those I have
mentioned are out of work now and very poor.
7337. Do they not make any money at fan-tan ? No.
7338. Did you ever make much money at fan-tan ? No ; I lost.
7339. Have you known any of your countrymen in Lower George-street to make much money at fan-
tan ? No.
7340. But somebody must win. "Who makes the money at fan-tan ? I do not know anything about it.
I never inquire of other men.
7341. Still, I suppose you do not go about with your eyes shut. Are you a married man? Yes.
7342. Is your wife here ? No ; she is in China.
7343. Are all of your countrymen married ? They are all married in China.
7344. Is your place not frequented by prostitutes ? No.
7345. Have you any children ? Tes ; one boy.
7346. How long is it since you left China ? Over six years. I was here before. I went home and came
back again.
7347. Have you been keeping company with any European women here ? No.
7348. Do not your countrymen have prostitutes hanging about their places down there ? No ; there are
none at my place. Sometimes some of them go into the cook-shops to eat.
7349. Mr. Abigail."] Tou worked for Tiy Sing Loong as a clerk ? Tes.
7350. Did you get a testimonial as to character when you left ? No ; the Chinese do not do that.
7351. Tou left to start as a lottery agent ? Tes ; I was in bad health — that is the reason.
7352. And you have your quarters at Doung Lee's ? Tes.
7353. That is a well-known gambling-house, is it not ? Formerly it was ; it is now a cook-shop.
7354. How many lottery-banks are you agent for ? Sixteen.
7355. Are you sure it is not twenty ? I sell tickets for sixteen lotteries.
7356. Now, how much per week do you receive for these sixteen lotteries ? Prom 600 to 900 tickets —
that is from £30 to £45.
7357. Does that represent the whole of the takings of the sixteen lotteries or banks ? On an average
during the week I receive that amount.
7358. How often have you made a commission of £30 in one week ? Only once.
7359. In that week how much did you take for tickets ? I cannot tell from memory. I could tell you
by my books.
7360. Do the whole of the sixteen lotteries belong to the ten men you have spoken of? No ; those ten
men were shareholders in the fan-tan table.
7361. "Who are the owners of the sixteen banks you refer to ? I do not known whether it will implicate
me or not ; I am afraid to say.
7362. It will not implicate you in any way, and you must tell us the names ? Sam "War guarantees the
funds of three I think ; and there are Tet Lee, Tean Lee, Look Lee, Griek Lee. Of the remaining six I
do not know who the bankers are.
7363. "Who pays you the commission for the six others ? The clerk in the banks gives it to me.
7364. Tou are evading the question, and we shall have to bring you here again and compel you to answer.
From whom do you receive the money for these tickets — men, women, or children ? From the Eoglish
and Chinese, old and young.
7365. Do you sell any to women or girls ? No.
7366. And your commission amounts to about 10 per cent. ? Tes.
7367. How much did you make last week ? A little over £3. •
7368. Then business has fallen off with you ? There was not much business last week.
7369. "What is the largest amount investors can win for 6d. ? £75.
7370. "What is the highest amount a man will pay for a ticket ? Sometimes a Chinaman will buy seventy
pieces— that is, 35s. at 6d. a ticket. Some buy eighteen at 6d. a ticket— 9s.
7371. What is the highest ticket you can get ? Thirty-five shillings.
7372. Then how does that work out ? Tou mark twenty tickets for the 35s.
7373. What is the highest amount you could win for that 35s. ? Tou could break the bank.
7374. What amount does it take to break the bank ? £300 — that is the limit of the bank.
7375. What is the highest amount a man can draw up to in the purchase of these tickets ? Seventy times
seventy, that is £4,900. 7376.
272—2 A
186 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OT EVIDENCE.
tin Yow. ^376. You could draw up to £4,900, and yet the amount in the bank is only £300 to pay all demands
f"*^^^^ upon it ? Tes.
19 Oct. , 1891. 7377 j8 tjjere uo f un(j avaiia|3ie at the back of that £300 to pay the balance if any ? No.
7378. Do you know that you are receiving money undur false pretences when you issue these tickets
whilst you have no funds to meet the possible winnings ? That is the standing rule of tbe banks.
7379. Do you explain to every one that comes in for 35s. worth of tickets that if they win a larger
amount they can only get the £300 ? Yes.
7380. If they win £4,000 all they will get is £300 ? Tes.
7381. Do you tell them — every one that ? I do not tell them all ; but the banks have printed rules
showing it.
7382. Eules printed in Chinese ? Yes.
7383. Do European customers understand that ? Europeans never buy so high as that. They only biiy
a few shillings worth of tickets, and there is no need to tell them.
7384. To what extent do the Europeans buy ? About six pieces — that would be 3s.
7385. Six times seventy is 420— that would be £420 ? It could be done, but I have never heard of it.
7386. You admit it could be done, it is possible ? Yes.
7387. And in that case all the winner would get would be £300 ? Tes.
7388. Do you issue printed notices in English to Europeans in caseB of that kind ? No.
7389. The ticket that you and Sarsin bought was purchased through you, was it not ? Tes.
7390. Who marked the ticket ? I marked the ticket. I marked it myself.
7391. Can you, as a matter of fact, so mark a ticket that it is bound to turn up a winner ? ,No.
7392. Now, as a matter of fact, would not that ticket, according to the amount paid, namely 6s. 6d.— if
the limit you speak of did not exist — represent over £900 ? It would be over £1,000; including the
commission.
7393. Then they issued tickets carrying a liability of over £1,000, when they had only £30d to pay out?
Tes, that is so. The banks show that rule to all agents. t. , ,
7394. Do you not know that that is a very dishonorable proceeding, and that if a European did that he
would be taken up, and possibly transported ? I do not know anything about that, v ,
7395. Do you not know that men have been taken up for issuing these tickets, and been convicted ? I
have not been there very long; 1 have not heard of it. .„.,-..
7396. Tou say you are paying 30s. a week as your share of the rent for the place where you live ? Tes.
7397. I suppose you pay that out of your commission ? Tea.
7398. Have you issued many tickets to-day ? No ; I have been sick these last few days.
7399. Did you issue any yesterday ? No.
7400. Did you issue any on Saturday? No.
7401. "When you won that £300 were you not told that the bank had not got the money to pay you?
They said to me, " We will pay you to-morrow."
7402. Who was it told you that ? A Chinaman named Took Quong.
7403. Did you accept a guarantee from the bank for your winnings ? Sam War guaranteed the amount. .
7404. So that as a matter of fact you did not receive the whole of the amount ? The whole of it was paid
on the following day.
7405. Tou know, I suppose, that they are in full swing now — both the lotteries and fan-tan, in Lower
Greorge-street ? I cannot say about the fan- tan, on account of my being sick for the last few days.
7406. Did you not give the police something out of that £135 — your share of the wiunings ? No.
7407. Are you quite sure ? Tes ; quite sure.
7408. Did you never make the police a present ? Never.
7409. How long have you been a resident of Lower G eorge-street ? Fifteen months.,
7410. Have you heard of any of your countrymen winning large sums of money in gambling down there ?
I have heard of it.
7411. Independent of that £300 win of your own, what is the 'largest sum of money you have heard of
any one winning down there ? 1 know that the bank has been broken several times through the Chinamen
winning down there, but I cannot remember how many times.
7412. That is winning up to £300? Tes. , ,
7413. And the liability might have been £3,000 ? No ; I have only heard of it being broken up to the
limit two or three times.
7414. Who is at the head of Sam War's place ? I do not know.
7415. Have you ever heard of any rows occurring through gambling down there ? No.
7416. Is it not a fact that women dp visit your place for immoral purposes ? No. , ,. , . , ,
7417. What is your opinion of fan-tan gambling; — is it good, bad, or indifferent ? I cannot say that. I
suppose if it were stopped it would not hurt me, and if it is not stopped it will not make me any better.
7418. Do you believe in obeying the law ? Tes.
7419. Then you must be opposed to fan-tan because that it is against the law ? I cannot say.
7420. What do you think of the lottery, is it good ? It is fair enough.
7421. Have you ever won anything at fan-tan ? No. v ,
7422. Then you cannot speak so confidently about that being fair as you do about the lottery ? . As I
have several times been in the lotteries I can say that it is fair enough, but having nothing to do with
fan^tan, I cannot speak of that.
7423. Are you afraid, so far as your countrymen are concerned, of saying anything about fan-tan to this
Commission ? I am not frightened. , , .
7424. How often have you subscribed to the fund which is raised for the purposes, of fighting the
Government, or paying fines inflicted on your countrymen connected with gambling ? I have never
subscribed anything. .
7425. Have you never attended a meeting of your countrymen to discuss the question in Sydney ? I
have never gone to one of these meetings at all — I am not very healthy — strong.
7426. Do you smoke opium ? Tes. .,
7427. Is not opium-smoking the cause of your being unwell ? The doctor instructed me to smoke opium
to prevent blood spitting.
7428. Do you think opium-smoking is good, generally speaking, for your countrymen, or anyone else ?
It is not very good. 7429.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 187
7429. "Would you like to see a law passed here to do away with opium-smoking ? I will not say whether Lin Yow.
it is good or bad! ' / — -*- — \
7430. Would you like to see a law passed to do away with the lottery and fan-tan ? T will not say — it is 19 0ct;» 18Sl
nothing to me either way. """"' '"
7431. Would you like to see a Jaw passed to export all your countrymen here to China? That would be
very good, to let us go and see our relatives.
7432. Do you think fan-tan a fair game ? Tes.
7433. And the lottery you think particularly fair ? Tes.
7434. Mr.Quong Tart.] You know the European population of Lower George-street have complained
about the Chinese carrying on gambling very largely, and also about the opium-smoking and immorality
carried on down there ? I do not know. I have never heard anyone say anything about it. I never
go out.
7435. Tou have heard about the Europeans calling a meeting down there about the gambling, and wait-
ing on the Premier to complain of the way the Chinese houses are carried on? I have not heard anything.
I am always inside.
7436. And about the places being dirty ? They are all very clean now.
7437. Would you like to assist to put down this evil? No. I would not sign my name to anything
like it. - B -• , . ■ ,;■ 9
7438. Tou say you are connected with the six lottery places ? Tes.
7439. And you have given us ten of the names already ? Tes.
7440. Now if you are a ticket-seller you are bound to know the names of the responsible parties ? Some
of them are old banks that were there before I came down.
7441. If you win any money to whom are you to look for it— you can tell if you like ? They bring it to
me. At Moy Ping's there are four banks— Loong Lee, Tuen Lee, Shong Lee, Sun Tick ; at Eook War
Tong's, two— Gick Lee and Look Lee; at Bo Sang Tong's, two— Chew Lee and Covey Lee; at Govn
Tick's there are six— Tet Kiy, Kum Lee, Tin Kee, War Lee, Tong Lee, and Kern Lee. The Tet Lee
and Tut Lee are "broke." There are fourteen altogether.
[The witness withdrew.]
WEDNESDAY, 21 OOTOBEB, 1891.
^xtstrti:—
The Mayor op Sydney (Me. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
PEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbesident,
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., j QUONG TAET, Esq., '
JOHN STUAKT HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Mr. Peter Decker called and examined : —
7442. President.] Where do you live ? At No. 43, Goulburn-street. Mr.
7443. What are you ? A fruiterer. P. Decker.
7444. Tou carry on business in Goulburn-street as a fruiterer ? Tes. /—»-«—*■>»
7445. How long have you resided there ? Pive years and eight months. 21 Oct., 1891.
7446. In what part of Goulburn-street is your shop sibuated — between what streets ? Between George
and Pitt Streets.
7447. I suppose you know a great deal about the occupants of the various houses in that block ? Tes.
7448. They are principally occupied by Chinese, I believe ? Most of them are at the present time.
7449. Do the Chinese carry on the gambling business there ? All of them carry on the business with the
exception of two.
7450. Is there any difficulty in obtaining access to their premises ? Not the least.
7451. Is it your opinion that the police must be aware of the use to which these premises are put? Oh,
yes.
7452. Do you know any of the police on duty in that street ? Tes, several.
7453. What is the name of the inspector in charge of that division ? Inspector Eeid.
7454. Do you know him personally ? No.
7455. Do you know Mr. Mackay personally ? Tes, I have seen him very often.
7456. Tou have seen him on duty in Goulburn-street ? Tes, very often.
7457. Have you had any conversation with him lately ? No.
7458. Do you know the sergeants in charge of the locality ? I know Sergeant Broderick and Sergeant
Collins.
7459. Have you had any conversation with either of them as to the Chinese gambling ? I have told
Sergeant Collins that they are a nuisance in that street, and destroy our business.
7460. How long ago is it tbat you told him that ? Eighteen months ago.
7461. What reply did the officer make to you ? He said they had no power to suppress it.
7462. Did he explain the reason — in what respect the law was defective ? He said it was the people's
own fault that they did not pass stricter measures to suppress it.
7463. He acknowledged that the police were aware of the offence being carried on there ? Tes ; I have
seen the police go in on several occasions, and chase the Europeans out of the house.
7464. Tou have seen the police go in? Tes. One of them told me himself that the law would not
allow him to.
7465. Who told you that ? Constable Pullerton told me that, and several other constables have told me.
I do not know the names of the others.
7466. Did they tell you that they could easily obtain access to the gambling-places, but that their
superior officers would not allow them to ? One constable told me they were not allowed to — that only
plain-clothes constables could do it ; and then they had to get a warrant to arrest the people. They
generally get detectives to do that work.
7467. Have you noticed women and children going into these Chinese gambling-dens ? Tes ; I have
lived five years next door to one, and I have seeu children going in to spend 6d. or Is. on the tickets.
Actually
188 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. Actually I have known children spend their fathers' money which they get by selling firewood, on
P. Decker, tickets and fan-tan. The lottery is the worst curse at the present time.
QfTTf^iHU! 74G8. These children you speak of, were they mere boys and girls ? Tes.
il Uct., 1891. 7469_ Gir]g of tender age p yeS) of tender age— from 12 and 13 up to 18 years.
7470. Do you know whether the Chinese have induced any of these girls to stay when they have entered
the premises to buy tickets ? That I cannot say.
7471. Tou do not know whether any young girls have been induced to visit any of these Chinese quarters
for immoral purposes ? Tes, I have in those places in the back lanes, a little further on. Several
young women sleep there with Chinamen, that I know of.
7472. Do you think that in those cases the intimacy started with the girls going first to the gambling-
houses in the way you have described ? Tes.
7473. Being there accosted by the Chinese and induced to visit the houses at the back ? Tes. There
are a great many of them at the back.
7474. Were any of the girls in question who have taken up with the Chinamen originally respectable —
that is, of fairly respectable position ? Tes ; I have known some young girls — 16 years of age, or there-
abouts, of respectable parents who have been in there ; and their mothers have told me they cannot keep
them away ; that the Chinamen gave them plenty of money, jewellery, and clothing, and that they (the
parents) were entirely powerless to do anything with them.
7475. Do you know many cases of that kind ? I have known three or four. I know one Chinese house
in Sussex-street — there was a girl there. She told me that she was living with a Chinaman. She had
been living at Balmain, and ran away from her parents, and the Chinaman induced her to run away
with him.
7476. What inducement did she say he offered her ? Plenty of money and clothing — flash dresses.
7477. Did you ever acquaint the police with the fact that these immoral practices were being carried on
in the premises you refer to ? The police know it well enough. It is carried on every day, and is under
their eyes continually.
7478. In short, the police must of necessity have known it ? Tes.
7479. This immorality is practised openly in the locality ? Tes ; the police have chased them out
themselves.
7480. The white women and girls go about among the Chinese there without any attempt at secrecy ?
Tes ; they go there both in the day and night time.
7481. Tou have never had any conversation with the police on the subject ? Not specially ; it is a
common thing.
7482. Is it a fact that the Chinese in your locality make presents to the people about on certain
occasions — at the time of their New Tear, for instance ? Tes.
7483. Have they ever given you a present? Tes ; they gave me a small box of tea and some ginger
at one time.
7484. They gave you that because you were a neighbour I suppose — just in a neighbourly spirit? Tes.
7485. Do you know if they have ever made any presents to the police of ginger or groceries of any kind ?
I do not know whether they give anything to the police or not. I know, on one occasion, a Chinaman
wanted to buy me out of my premises to use it as a gambling-house, and I had a conversation with him
like this : I said to him. " Why do you go on gambling here ? the police will chase you out." He said,
" Oh, no ; we pay £10 a week for Goulburn-street." I asked him whom he paid the £10 to, but he
would not tell me.
7486. Can you tell us the name of the Chinaman you had the conversation with ? No. He is not there
now. He has been gone from that street about eighteen months.
7487. Can you not remember his name ? No ; I do not know any of them by name. I told the sergeant
what the man had said, and I told Constable Fullerton, and he said he never got a penny of it.
7488. Tou told the police that you had heard they were corrupted ? Tes ; I said, " The Chinamen say
that they pay £10 a week for Goulburn-street and the lane, and no wonder they can carry on." Their
reply was that they received nothing of it.
7489. Tou do not know the name of the Chinaman who told you that ? No.
7490. Where did he carry on business ? In Goulburn-street.
7491. At what number ? I think it was 42 or 44 ; it was on the opposite side from my place.
7492. And he left there eighteen months ago ? Tes ; he offered me a good price for my premises.
7493. And did you decline because your business was turning you in a good profit ? No, not for that ; I
knew the landlord would not allow him to go in.
7494. He would not consent to your transferring your lease; — who is the landlord? Mr. Thompson,
publican ; he keeps the family hotel.
7495. Do you know the landlords of any premises occupied by Chinese as gambling-houses? Mr. Seal
lets his premises to them.
7496. Do you know of any others ? No.
7497. Do you know of any act of bribery affecting the police in your neighbourhood ? Not of my own
knowledge.
7498. Did you ever hear of the police being bribed at any time ? Tes ; a blackfellow one time told me
He was a great gambler.
7499. What is his name ? He is a big American. He lost all his money one Saturday night — it was £5,
I think — and he came to me for 3d. to carry him to Balmain. I said to him, " It is a shame of you to go
and lose all your money like that, and leave your wife and children to starve ; I wonder the police do not
put a stop to the gambling." He said, " Oh, the police are bribed, and the Chinamen can carry on as
much as they like." I asked him how he knew that, and he said, " We hear everything in the
fan-tan shops."
7500. Do you know how the business is conducted in those gambling-houses ? I have had a look at it.
7501. Have you ever seen the police in one of these places making a raid ? I have seen the police go into
the place next door to me several times to put the people out, but they did not arrest them.
7502. Have you ever been present when the police have gone there, and there was money on the table ?
No.
7503. When the police go in and disperse the gamblers, what becomes of the money on the table ? I
cannot say. 7504.
Chinese gambling commission-— minutes of evidence. 189
7504. Have you ever heard that the police took it ? No ; I never heard that. I have heard many times Mr.
about the police going in, but not about the money on the table, or who took it. I know there is often Decker,
plenty on the table — I have seen it. <iCn~^Tmi
7505. You had a conversation with Mr. McKillop ? Yes ; I told him that a Chinaman had told me that ° ' 18ai-
they paid £10 a week to certain people, but did not say to whom. It must be to the police, of course.
At least that is what I make out of it.
7506. Your informant was the Chinaman you have spoken of ? Yes, and the blackfellow.
7507. Are you quite sure you cannot give us any information that would enable us to trace that China-
man ? I could not. He has been away from G-oulburn- street a long time.
7508. Would you know him again if you saw him? I doubt it. There are so many of them from all
parts— Waterloo and Botany— come into my premises, and they are all very much alike.
7509. Do they carry on the gambling day and night ? Yes ; up to about 11 and 12 o'clock.
7510. On Sundays, too ? Yes ; all day. They come from all parts— Newtown, Petersham, Balmain, and
other places.
7511. You mean Europeans and Chinese as well ? Yes ; but mostly Europeans.
7512. Are there many opium-dens in the locality you live in ? Yes ; there are several at the back of my
place. I asked one of them the other day if he was not frightened of being fined for selling opium, and
he said " no."
7513. Do you know if there are any women opium-smokers ? Yes ; there are several who go there to
smoke opium regularly.
7514. There are not a great number ? No ; they are bad characters, mostly, who go there to smoke opium.
7515. Have youever heard of young girls being brought by the Chinese into these opium-dens ? I know
for a fact that girls have been there smoking opium and lying down with nearly all their clothing off:
7516. Have you been present at any beastly exhibitions in these places, where the women have been
lying under the influence of opium ? No ; but as I say, I know there are young women who smoke
opium. One of those who smoke it comes to my place now, and she has told me she cannot knock it off ;
that she must go there to smoke, and that she smokes as much as 5s. or 6s. worth of the drug each day.
7517. The sanitary condition of these houses at the back is very bad, is it not ? Yes ; very bad. The place
is very crowded, and there are nine or ten houses occupied by Chinese in the back there, with only one or
two closets for all.
7518. And a number of men and women assemble there and smoke opium ? Yes ; they are principally
Chinese vegetable hawkers, and they always have women with them at night there. In .Robinson's-lane
there are about 250 Chinese in one place.
7519. That is a very big building ? Yes.
7520. Are women allowed to go there? I have never seen women in it.
7521. Have you been there often ? Yes ; I have gone there to buy vegetables.
7522. Is there much opium-smoking carried on there ? Oh, yes ; they smoke opium there. They have
tables like this on the ground floor, and they smoke their opium and sleep on the tables, the vegetables
being placed underneath the tables.
7523. Do you say the vegetables are in the bed-room ? In the place where they sleep ; yes. They sleep
on these tables, and the vegetables are underneath on the ground.
7524. When did you last visit the place ? Only the other day. Underneath the tables is usually full of
vegetables, and the Chinamen smoke opium on top of the tables, with a mat for a bed. I spoke to the
police about it one day, and said it was a terrible thing for the people to eat vegetables which were kept
like that. He retorted that I went there myself, but I pointed out that I went there, not for myself, but
for other people.
7525. Does the sanitary condition of the place compare favourably with the sanitary condition of other
Chinese places about there ? Yes. It is cleaner kept than some.
7526. The only owner of property occupied by Chinese that you know of is Mr. Seal ? Yes.
7527. Where are the premises situated, — on which side ? On the left-hand side, going towards George-
street,
7528. That is the lowest side, nearest the Haymarket ? Yes. He (Mr. Seal) lets four shops in the front
and nine houses at the back.
7529. Have you taken the trouble to inquire how the proprietors of the Chinese gambling-houses arrange
their financial affairs at all? Well, some Chinamen have told me that they generally have what they call
a sustentation fund, which is collected by taking so much out of every shilling of the winnings. That
is for a defence fund, to pay the fines of the Chinese brought up at the police court.
7530. A Chinaman told you that ? Yes.
7531. That contributions were levied on the winnings of the gambling-houses to furnish a fund for paying
the fines inflicted on the gamblers for breaking the law ? Yes.
7532. Can you tell us the name of the Chinaman who told you that ? No ; I know none of them by name.
7533. How long ago is it since you had that conversation ? It is a. good while ago.
7534. However it is well within your knowledge that there is a fund established for some such purpose?
Yes. .
7535. When you heard that £10 per week was paid, presumably to the police, did you ask whether it was
paid out of that fund? No; I did not. . I never thought of such a thing until it was mentioned
to me.
7536. If a system of bribery was carried on there, would it not have to include all the members of the
police force on duty in that particular part ? I do not think it.
7537. What I mean is this : Supposing this £10 a week was paid to the police down there for winking at
certain things, it must have been divided among all the policemen who were on duty there ;— it would
not do to bribe one and not another, or a link in the chain would be lost — that is the point I want you to
answer? I do not think all of the police would be bribed. From what I can hear of it
7538. Suppose you and I were policemen on that beat, what would be the good of bribing you if you were
on duty to-day, and not bribing me if 1 were on duty to-morrow ;— do you not see that for the bribery to
be effectual it should be extended to both of us ? 1 do not think the constables on the beat are paid! I
believe it is paid to their superiors.
7589. You were led to believe that the bribe of £10 a week must have been given to some of the superior
officers ? Yes ; that is my belief.
7540,
?-9.0 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 7540. And I suppose you were confirmed in that belief by what was told you by one of the ordinary
police officers, namely, that they were told not to interfere, and that they could not enter those places
without warrants ? Tes.
21 Oct., 1891.
7541. Are you quite sure you are not personally aware of any groceries, furniture, or jewellery, or any-
thing of value, being given to the police by the Chinese gambling-house keepers ? I am not aware of any-
thing of that kind.
7542. Have you never heard of it ? No. I have seen the police on very good terms with them — going in
and shaking hands with the Chinese, and all that sort of thing.
7543. Have you seen any of the police drinking or dining with or being entertained by the proprietors
of any of the gambling-dens ? I have seen the police called in by the Chinese, and I have noticed the
police go in, and shake hands, but for what purpose they were called in I cannot say.
7544. Did you never inquire ? No ; but I have remarked to certain people sometimes, the police seem
very intimate with the Chinese, seeing the way they shake hands with them.
7545. Tou are quite sure they are on terms of intimacy with the proprietors of these gambling-houses ?
Tes, I am sure of that.
7546. Give me the name of any officer you know on duty there, whom you have seen shaking hands with
those Chinamen, or whom you know to be on terms of intimacy with them ? There is plain-clothes
Constable Lewis, he was on terms of intimacy with them.
7547. Any others ? Tes ; West and Rae.
7548. Are they plain-clothes constables ? Tes ; I have never seen constables go in there in uniform.
7549. Did you notice any of the officers — one of the sergeants for instance? No.
7550. Or the inspector ? No ; never.
7551. Now, I want to ask you another question Mr. Decker ; might not the plain-clothes constables or
detectives you have referred to, have gone into those places in the execution of their ordinary duty, looking
after thieves or bad characters ? They have done so.
7552. They might have gone in for that purpose ? They have done so I know.
7553. Is it part of their duty to go and inspect these places in the back lanes to see if there are any bad
characters concealed there ? Certainly.
7554. And on the occasions you have referred to might they not have been visiting these places in the
discharge of their duty ? Tes ; I have seen constables going into the places at the back, and arresting
people there many times.
7555. Have you seen the constables visit the houses where they play fan-tan to look for offenders outside
of gambling altogether ? Tes. Detectives West and Murdoch look after the people there.
7556. Those places are the resort of thieves, bad characters, and suspected persons ? ' Tes ; a great many
of them mouch about there.
7557. The moral atmosphere of the place is very bad ? Tes.
7558. Has the state of things been much worse during the last five years ? Well it has been a great deal
worse than it is at present. Since this agitation has been raised they have become frightened.
7559. That is during the last three months ? Tes ; but still the premises I occupied have been let to
Chinese during the last fortnight. I had to leave because I was between two of them, and I found
I could not do the trade.
7560. Have you visited Wexford-street at all ? Tes.
7561. Have you been in any of the Chinese habitations there ? Tes ; I have gone there with the police.
7562. Tou went from curiosity ? No ; we were looking for certain persons on account of some stolen
property.
7563. Tou were interested in some property that had been stolen ? Tes.
7564. And you went to these places to search for it ? Tes.
7565. Were you present when fau-tan was going on in any of those places ? Tes ; fan-tan was in full
swing, and also the lottery.
7566. Did you notice many Europeans there ? Tes ; Europeans and Chinese mixed.
7567. Were any women there ? No ; with fan-tan there are no women. In the lotteries it is mostly
women who buy the tickets. •
7568. Mr. Abigail^ Tou have a good knowledge of what is going on in Goulburn-street, between Pitt
and George Streets ? Tes.
7569. Is there much legitimate business carried on there among the Chinese ? No ; there is no legitimate
business at all.
7570. Do you think the presence of the Chinese there tends to drive business from the street ? I do.
Pour years ago — you might have noticed yourself, sir — all the houses on the northern side of George-
street were tenanted by Europeans, carrying on business, and they have been crowded out by the Chinese.
The Europeans were paying 14s. a week rent, and they were bought out by the Chinese, who took a lease,
and paid £1 a week, and the Europeans had to quit.
7571. Eeferring to the small houses at the back of your premises, and occupied by Chinese, you think
they are very much overcrowded ? Tes ; undoubtedly.
7572. Do you think they should be compelled to afford the same amount of accommodation as European
houses ? I do, certainly.
7573. And that they should be compelled to conform to the same sanitary laws ? Tes.
7574. I suppose the smells are very offensive there ? Tes ; that is the reason I had' to move from my
place. I could not live there any longer. There is always a smell of opium or some other kind of stuff.
I do not know what it is, but I know it is very disagreeable. It has frequently made my wife sick.
7575. What has affected you in that part would equally affect other residents of the locality, I suppose ?
Tes.
7576. Tou say that part of Goulburn-street is much frequented by women of bad character ? Tes.
7577. Tou can see them about every day ? Tes. They are there with the Chinese every day, and stop
there at night.
7578. In your experience that goes to show that the Chinese treat them better than Europeans ? Tes ;
they give them more money, and treat them better.
7579. That is the explanation of the bad girls going about there ? Tes. They can always get money out
of the Chinese.
7580.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 191
7580. These gambling-dens are largely frequented by labouring men, are they not ? Tes. On Saturday . Mr.;.,
night I have seen poor women and children waiting for the men to come out from places near to my shop, _P*C _ '
the men having lost all their money at gambling. 2wTfMsqi '
7581. Have you noticed those placards on the fronts of the Chinese houses ? Tes. c "'
7582. Do you know what they mean ? Tes ; it says that gambling is carried on. there.
7583. Mr. Hawthorne.'] How did you come to know that the placard announced gambling ? The Chinamen
told me. I would of ten have a chat with them.
7584. Tou have found them pretty open with you ? Tes. I may say that the Chinamen in general
were very good customers to me. They bought a great deal of fruit. They spend their money freely.
7585. They are fair neighbours ? Tes ; very quiet. They are very fair people.
7586. Is there much whore-mongering there ? Tes ; I think so.
7587. Mr. Quong Tart.] Tou stated, in answer to the President, that you got information from a China-
man about £10 a week being given to the police. What is the number, of the shop where this Chinaman
carried on business ? It was a company of Chinamen carried on the place.
7588. "Would you know him again ? I think so ; he was a tall young fellow. He lived somewhere in
Pitt-street, but was always in Goulburn-street, with his mates.
7589. Could he speak English very well ? Tes, he spoke very good English.
7590. Could he write English ? I cannot say. He could speak English very well. He said he could
afford to give me £50 for the premises.
7591. Tou have said that young girls frequent these Chinese houses— where are they ? At; the back of
Seal's places ; there is a wine-shop at the corner of the lane, and there is another lane turning off that.
7592. What are the Chinese in those places ? They are hawkers.
7593. Tou say some^respectable girls go there ? Tes ; they used to some time ago ; not now.
7594. Would you think they were pure, virtuous women before they went there ? I cannot say anything
about their purity ; they looked respectable.
7595. Tou have stated that the lottery is the greatest curse down there — will you explain your reason for
saying that ? They are a great nuisance. The larrikins buy tickets in the lottery and stand outside the
Chinese houses, blackguarding anyone that passes, waiting for the banks to be drawn.
7596. How often do the banks open ? Every hour or hour and a half, perhaps. The larrikins stand
outside on the footpath, and people cannot pass there.
7597. How many banks are there ? About twenty in Goulburn-street. .
7598. How many respectable Chinese are there carrying on business there ? Two or three altogether.
One is Ko Ping ; he has a respectable mien ; I have known him for a long time ; and there is another
one ; I do not know his name.
7599. At which of these gambling-houses dq most Europeans congregate ? There is a place three doors
from my place — a very hot shop.
7600. Have any Europeans complained to you about the gambling carried on there ? Tes, several ; they
have come into my shop to talk over it. They have said it is a shame that it should be allowed to be
carried. I have given seven or eight of the larrikins in charge of the police for standing in front of my
door and annoying people.
7601. There is no complaint against the respectable Chinese? No, there would not be any complaint
against them. The great nuisance is caused by larrikins that come about these places, and the rows that
occur there. I have seen big stones and bricks coming across the road and flying out of the windows and
doors.
7602. Have you formed any idea of the best way to put down this evil ? That I do not know. The only
way I can think of is to keep the Chinese in a district by themselves, as they do in California. They
should not be allowed to live amongst the European population at the present time, the way they do
live.
7603. Mr. Hawthorne.] How long is it since you were in California? It is a good many years ago.
7604. Did you visit the Chinese quarter when you were there ? No, but I know from shipmates of
mine. I have not been there for twenty-four years, but I have read and been told how they manage with
the Chinese there.
7605. Mr. Quong Tart.] If the Chinese were kept entirely by themselves do you not think it would rather
increase the evil ? So long as the European men and girls were kept away it would be better. The
only question is, could you keep them away ? _ . . v . ,
7606. Tou have referred to the dirty premises and so forth in that part of Goulburn-street ;— do you
think the Chinese are better or worse than the people of the same class of other nations ? Well the
Chinese who live next door to me are very clean ; the only thing is, they have a peculiar smell about
them. • .
7607. Which is the largest gambling-shop in Goulburn-street ? There is one at the corner of Eobinson's-
lane and one about three doors from my place ; a very large one, always full.
7608. Have you known many rows to occur there ? Oh, yes, I have seen the doors burst open and young
fellows with their hands smashed.
7609. What has been the cause of these rows ? They arise out of the gambling.
7610. Do you know any Chinese informers ? No.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. John Dawson called and examined : —
7611. Mr. Abigail] Tou have been a police officer, Mr. Dawson ? Tes ; I retired ten years ago from the Mr.
police. ' J.Dawson.
7612. What rank did you retire on ? The rank of sergeant. ,«— ^— n
7613. About how long had you held the rank of sergeant ? About fourteen years, I think. 21 Oct., 1891.
7614. Tou rose to. that rank from the position of an ordinary constable? Tes,
7615.' In what part of the city did you pass most of your time during your connection with the police ?
Most of my time was spent in the northern part of the city.
7016. Then you have an intimate knowledge of Lower George-street? Tes ; at that time I had.
7617. That is ten years ago ? Tes ; I retired on the 3rd October, 1882. 7618.
21 Oct., 1891.
192 cniXESE GAMBLTXG COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. 7618. Tou are invited here by the Commission, I may tell you, to give any information you may possess
J. Dawson. wjj.Q reference to the gambling carried on in Lower George-street ? I shall be most happy to give the
Commission all the information in my power.
7619. What was the state of Lower George-street ten years ago ? It was in perfect order then. Do
you mean with respect to the Chinese ?
7620. Yes ; — with regard to the gambling question, and the condition of the Chinese residents generally ?
In my time there were no complaints against the Chinese. They were a law-abiding and industrious people.
7621. "Were there many gambling-dens in Lower George-street at that time ? Gambling was not carried
on to any extent there at that time.
7622. But there were, I suppose, some gambling-places known to you ? One or two places there were,
in which the Chinese used to gamble amongst themselves, but no Europeans played in those places. The
Europeans did not frequent the places at all, and no complaints were made to the police.
7623. "Were women in the habit of visiting the Chinese houses then ? Very seldom, indeed ; and when-
ever the police found that any such thing was going on, they quickly put a stop to it. The inspector was
very particular about that. Inspector Anderson was there during my time, and Inspector Taylor
succeeded him ; then came Inspector Johnson, and Inspector Atwill took his place. He has been in
charge of the northern part of the city for nine years.
7624. Do you remember an inquiry that took place sometime ago by a Select Committee of Parliament
into the condition of the common lodging-houses of Sydney ? I did not have anything to do with that.
7625. Tou were not called as a witness ? No. That was more with regard to this side of the city — a
lot of common boarding-houses in Clarence-street, which were done away with years ago.
7626. Do you know anything about what has been going on down there since you left the force ? No.
I have no knowledge of anything since then.
7627. Do not you know that Chinese gambling has increased very largely in the locality since that time ?
No ; only what I saw from the reports in the papers of the deputation that waited on Sir Henry Parkes.
I went to live at North Shore, and have been some years there ; I reside at Lane Cove now.
7628. Tou have read in the papers the statements made by several members of the deputation to the
Premier ? Tes. I saw leading articles in the two morning papers ; on the 1st August last, I think ;
and I was very much surprised.
7629. Did you see the reported statement at the deputation as to certain members of the police in Lower
George-street having received presents from the Chinese residents there of gold watches and chains, or
diamond rings ? Tes, I did, and I believe it to be untrue. I do not think the police have fallen so low
as to do the like of that.
7630. Tou believe there is no evidence to justify a charge of that kind against the police ? No. I am
well acquainted with the police, and know them to be a most honorable, respectable class of men.
7031. Have you heard of any members of the police on that beat accumulating considerable property?
Of course they have property, which they have accumulated by their own industry. I have accumulated
property myself through my industry, and making good speculations in land, and through my own
frugality. I bought land when it was cheap, and got good prices for it.
7632. And you think that any of the police who have acquired property have obtained it in a similar way ?
Tes ; I consider them a most respectable and honorable class of men ; and I ought to be in a position to
say, for I served with them a number of years.
7G33. Tou can neither give any information, nor offer any opinion to justify a charge of that kind against
the police ? No ; certainly not.
7634. Do you believe that the statement or charge is untrue ? Tes ; I believe it is untrue that they
would take a bribe in any possible shape. I may say when I was leaving the police force the Chinese
merchants of Lower George-street presented me with a testimonial in the shape of a gold watch and chain,
and an address, and Mr. Quong Tart was one of those who signed it. I suppose that is what caused all. the
talk about the gold watches, and so forth. This [taking it from his pocket] is the watch, gentlemen.
7635. Mr. Hawthorne.'] [Reading the inscription] : — " Presented to Mr. John Dawson, on his resignation
of the position of Sergeant in the Metropolitan Police, by the Chinese residents of Bourke "Ward, Sydney,
November, 1882." This testimonial, I understand, was presented to you in the most public manner, Mr.
Dawson ? Tes.
7636. And was that the only presentation you received throughout your connection with the police force ?
That was all.
7637. And it was done in the most open manner ? Tes ; after I left the force.
7638. During the whole time you were connected with the force I suppose you did your duty fairly all
round as a police officer ? Undoubtedly ; I may say when I first went to the Northern Division the
Chinese were badly treated by the larrikins, who assaulted them, and we put a stop to it. At the time of
the Chinese scare I took an active part in visiting the Chinese quarters, and getting them disinfected.
7639. Tou never showed any partiality to the Chinese in any way ? No ; I did my duty simply in an
honorable and straightforward manner.
7640. "What, may I ask, are the names of the policemen in the force now who were also in the force when
you were a member of it ? One is Mr. Higgins, an old friend of mine — a most honorable man.
7641. Do you know whether he acquired a good deal of household property ? Tes ; I am glad to say he
has done so, through his industry and frugality.
7642. And having bought land when it was cheap, I suppose ? Tes ; and he afterwards put up houses
on the land, and got tenants for them.
7643. And any statement that may have been made that he (Sergeant Higgins) and others engaged in
the police force have accumulated a large amount of property through treachery to their office you
believe to be utterly without foundation ? "Well I do not believe a word of it.
7644. However, you believe there is plenty of evidence to prove that what they have got is the result of
their own industry and frugality ? Tes ; I do believe that. There was another man named Carson got
property in the same way.
7645. Do you know Constable Quealy, who was at one time in the force ? He was not in the force in
my time ; but I think I know the man you mean — he is outside now.
7646. Besides those whom you have named are there any others now in the force who were members of
it in your time ? Tes ; there are a good many — Sergeant Macdonald, Senior-sergeant Kenny.
7647. All honorable men ? Tes sir. 7648.
.CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 198>
7648. Tou think they would be above taking anything in the shape of a bribe ? I do. It would not be Mr.
very safe for the police to do that. It would not last long, you may be sure. J" Daws09§
7649. If bribery were carried on, as has been suggested, would it not be necessary to bribe every man oi'TT^tsqi
parading that portion of the city ? It would ; if they could not give it to one as well as another it • a*"
would break down.
7650. Has the ordinary police constable as much power in suppressing crime as his superior officer ?
Yes ; in fact he has more, because he is brought more immediately into contact with the people. He is
up and down all day long ; on the other hand, the non-commissioned officer has not half the time, because
hejias to go round to all the places, and divide his time between them.
7651. Then it would be more necessary to bribe the ordinary constables than the officers ? I believe it
would. They (the constables) have more to do with them, and see more of them. But at the same time
I cannot believe that the statements I have seen in the papers are true. If so there must be bad super-
vision down there — that is all I can say.
7652. How many years were you in the police force, Mr. Dawson ? Twenty-two years.
7653. In that particular part of Sydney ? From Erskine-street to Dawes' Point all the time. I was in
charge of the watch-house in Erskine-street for seven years.
7654. When you saw the statements reported in the paper, those that were made by the deputation to
the Premier, you thought they were incredible ? Tes ; it struck me as being disgraceful, malicious, and
false.
7655. Have you any Chinese in your neighbourhood, and do you have any trouble with them? All the
inhabitants of my neighbourhood are law-abiding people.
7656. You have no disturbance from the Chinese ? Not the least. I have my garden let to them.
7657-8. How many are there living up'there, about 200 ? Yes, in Willoughby and Lane Cove.
7659. They make no disturbance there ? No ; they are not any trouble whatever.
7660. They never interfere with the women and children ? No. As I have said already, they are a law*
abiding people there.
7661. And the Europeans make no complaint as to their residence in the neighbourhood ? No.
2766. Do you know Inspector Atwill ? I do.
7663. Had he been appointed to that district previous to your removal? He came there in 1881.
7664. Did you ever serve under him ? No ; and I would not like to.
7665. What was, or is, your opinion of his conduct as an officer ; — do you think he would be capable of
receiving a present as an inducement for him to overlook his duty ? I do not know anything about him.
7666. You are not on friendly terms with him ? I am not. He comes from the same place at home as
I do. When he came to the country I was a good friend to him, but he behaved a bad friend to me.
7667. Have you ever heard anything about Inspector Atwill's character, in regard to the terms upon
which he has lived with the people of his district — Chinese or otherwise — that would lead you to doubt
his character as an honest upright man ? Since I left the police I have had nothing to do with him at all.
76G8- Have you ever heard anything that would affect his character as a police officer ? No. But I do
not think he would do anything dishonorable. I had forgotten to say when speaking of presents that the
Chinese on certain occasions are in the habit of distributing small presents. At Christmas time I have
received many little things from them, such as preserved ginger, for instance.
7669. During your time in the police force you have received small presents of ginger, and so forth ?
Yes. Mr. Quong Tart and all the big Chinese merchants in Sydney do that. They are very hospitable
at Christmas time.
7670. You generally found them a hospitably inclined people ? Yes, sir.
7671. And do you find them so still? I do.
7672. Mr. 3IcKillop.~\ How long have you been living in Lane Cove, Mr. Dawson ? Over two years.
7673. I think you stated that you have property in Lane Cove ? Yes, I am happy to say I have.
7674. Did you acquire that property while you were in the police force ? Yes.
7675. Do you know Way Kee? Yes. He had a garden of mine for a number of years. He paid £30
a year for it.
7676. Did vou at any time get a loan from Way Kee ? Never in my life. I never got a shilling from
any of them, and I never required it either. Way Kee is the wrong mark to give you a loan anyway.
7677. Did the rent which he paid you for that land never exceed the £30 a year ? He only paid £30 a
year. After he gave it up I let it again, and get £50 for it now.
7678. Have you had any conversation with any of the police officers of the northern division recently ?
No, not with any of them.
7679. You have not been in that portion of the town? No. I have nothing to do with the police ; I do
not often come to Sydney.
7680. Are you aware that the number of Chinese gambling-houses in that portion of the city has been on
the increase during the last few years ? According to the papers it would seem so.
7681. You do not know that it is so from personal observation ? No. I was eight years in the service of
the Gas Company after I left the police, and I was up and down there pretty often, but I could never see
any great annoyance from gambling in Lower George-street.
7682. Was Sergeant Macintosh on duty in that district when you were there ? No ; not in my time.
7683. I believe he kept the Chinese, and the gambling portion of the larrikin element, pretty well in sub-
jection there, did he not ? I do not think he did more than anyone else. In fact one man could not do
it ; he must be assisted by all parties.
7684. Did you at first refuse to be present here when you were served with a summons to attend ? Yes ;
I did not know what they wranted me for.
7685. Did you not know as a police officer ? I am not a police officer.
7686. Well, as an ex-police officer — as a citizen, that being summoned by the Commission you were bound
to attend ? I came here out of respect to his Worship the Mayor — I did not know who the Commission
were.
7687. Do you not know, sir, that being summoned by the Commission, you were bound to attend ?
I got no summons — it was only a memo, from the secretary.
7688. That was quite sufficient? Well, I make no apology— -I am here, anyhow.
7689. I do not think your answers respectful to the Commission — I must leave the matter in the hands
of the President. 7690,
272—2 B
id*
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mi1. 7690. Mr. Abigail."] Do you not know that a Commission is clothed with all the authority of the Supreme
L^^T' Court, and it has power to compel the attendance of anybody it may want ? The notice does not show
si Oct. 1891. any Penalty.
' 7691. President.] As a matter of fact, Mr. Dawson, I suppose your real objection, or disinclination to
attend upon the summons of the Commission, was because you have been a long time out of the force, and
you thought it a hardship to be brought to town ? That is it, Mr. Manning.
7692. Well, I would like to say this — and you will bear with me when I tell you that it savours of rude-
ness for you to say you have come merely out of respect to me, because I am merely the Chairman of the
Commission ; although I do not think you intended it. But you must recollect that we have had certain
evidence here, and it is about that wo wish to examine you. Mr. McKillop is now traversing that
evidence ? Very well, sir ; I do not wish to be disrespectful to the Commission, I am sure.
7693. Mr. McKillop.] Has an ordinary constable the power to enter these gambling-dens at any time he
feels inclined ? No ; a policeman has no power to enter any man's house without a warrant. But I do
not believe the Chinamen ever refused a policeman permission to enter their premises.
7694. Do you not know for a fact that policemen in uniform have entered these places frequently ? Tes ;
and I have myself.
7695. Have you seen gambling going on inside ? Tes ; they used to play fan-tan.
7096. You have seen that ? Yes.
7697. Were you not aware that it was illegal to play fan-tan ? No ; I was not. There was no Gambling
Act as to that then in force.
7698. Not nine years ago ? No ; I have never heard of such a thing.
7699. How long is it since the Gambling Act was passed ? I forget. I think there was a Gambling Act
as regards Europeans, but I never heard anything about a law applying to Chinamen. So far as tho
police were concerned, there was no complaint made about those people. Mr. Anderson and I used to go
the rounds repeatedly.
7700. You must understand, Mr. Dawson, that I can speak from seventeen years' experience of that
portion of the city, and have seen the evil growing ? Well, I am sorry it has come to such a pass.
7701. You have said that an ordinary police constable has as much power as a senior officer ? Yes, just
the same.
7702. Would he not have to wait and consult his senior officer on the beat before he could take action
against anyone ? He could not take action unless he had a warrant.
7703. Not in the case of gambling ? No. I remember there was a raid made on one occasion, when the
Chinamen were locked up without a warrant. Mr. Driver defended them, and he beat the police.
7704. Am I to gather from your answers that the law at present is not sufficiently stringent to enable
the police to effectively deal with this evil ? Yes.
7705. And that you would impose imprisonment without the option of a fine ? Yes.
7706. In your opinion, as an old servant of the State and police officer, that would have a tendency to
minimise the gambling evil in our midst ? It would, both European and Chinese.
7707. Has a constable or non-commissioned officer in the police force the right to enter a tobacconist's
shop or any other place where Europeans gamble if he has reason to think it is carried on there ? Not
without a warrant.
7708. In answer to a question a shurt time back, you said you would not like to serve under Inspector
Atwill ? I would not.
7709. Do you think the police in the northern division of the city are as efficient at the present time as
they were in years gone by, or during the time other inspectors were in charge of that division ? Accord-
ing to the reports that have been lately circulated they cannot be, but I know nothing about that.
7710. You must be a judge, after all the service you have seen ? I have nothing to do with the police
now, and therefore am not in a position to offer an opinion.
7711. I merely want to elicit your opinion — surely you have formed an impression upon the subject ? No ;
I have no opportunities of doing so, and I have no connection with the police now. I have not been in
George-street three times these last two years.
7712. President.] As a matter of fact you cannot give an opinion upon that point ? No, I cannot.
7713. Mr. McKillop.] You have said that great changes have taken place in the district since you were
on duty there ? Yes. There are few men I know there now.
7714. Do you not think it possible that there may have been some dishonest men on the staff of that
station ? I will not say as to that. But I suppose the police are like others — there are good and bad
among them.
7715. Did you at no time receive any money from Way Kee in the shape of a loan ? No ; he is the
wrong mark for that. I found him a hard, though honest man.
7716. Was there a great deal of prostitution carried on in the neighbourhood of Lower George-street
during your time ? No ; we would not allow it, sir.
' 7717. You put it down with a strong arm ? Yes ; we dealt with them quickly. Mr. Anderson made us
attend to them specially. His instructions would be that if we found any of that class of women in the
Chinese dwellings to put them under the Vagrant Act, and they would have to go to gaol.
7718. In that way you " nipped it in the bud," I suppose ? We did.
7719. Was Lower George-street noted for a large amount of business — the trade carried on, I mean — in
•your time ? It was largely a Chinese population ; but there were also a number of European places of
business.
7720. Were there as many Chinese shops there then as there are in that locality now ? Yes. The old
houses were pulled down and new ones built to replace them.
7721. Have you remarked that the respectable portion of the passengers by harbour ferries — from places
like Watson's Bay, North Shore, and Manly Beach — had an aversion to travelling up town by way of
Lower George-street ? No, not in my time ; the people then used to patronise that part of George-street
to a very large extent, indeed.
7722. Were the sanitary conditions of that portion of George-street very good in your time ? We used
to make the people clean up their places.
7723. Were the sanitary arrangements of the locality under your control ? No ; but we used to do it on
behalf of the public. Inspector Seymour and his staff used to visit their premises also.
7724.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EYIDENCE. 195
7724. Do you know Mr. Nock, of the firm of Eelton and Nock, in Lower George-street ? I do- I We T Mr,
known him since the time he was just able to walk. J' Dawso*>-
7725. He is a respectable, trustworthy person, I suppose ? Yes, he is a very nice young man. 210ct~1891
7726. Are you of opinion that Mr. Nock would be likely to carefully consider anv statement that he would
make with regard to any matter of importance ? Certainly. He is a business man, and an honorable man.
He has been a partner of Mr. Felton's for some years now.
7727. He worked his way up to his present position through his own energy, industry, and attention to
business ? Yes ; he worked his way up from the door.
7728. By that you mean, I suppose, that he was originally employed as a boy at the door ? Yes.
II29' a °/°U kn°W Mr' Buclianail? 1 do- He is a very respectable man.
7730. And you think any evidence he might give would be evidence that could be relied upon ? I do.
llol' t W DOt any man an iniustice ? N°- I do not think it would do him any good to do it.
7732. 1 want your opinion on the point as I put it, if you please ? All I can say of Mr. Buchanan is that
he is a very respectable man, and his wife is a very nice woman.
7733. Supposing that the same amount of gambling as goes on in these Chinese quarters were carried on
among Europeans, and done as openly, do you not think the police would take prompt measures to sup-
press it ? I believe they would.
7734. Do you remember whether in your time similar placards to those shown in the photographs produced
used to be exhibited outside the Chinese houses ? Yes ; I have seen them.
7735. Did you not have command of a Chinese interpreter? Yes, in the Court. But there was no com-
plaint about them.
7736. The evil was not so great then ? It was not, or we would have put a stop to it.
7737. Did it never strike you, either through curiosity, or from your position as a police officer, to make
inquiry as to what those notices meant ? No ; and I did not know anything about it until I saw it in
the paper the other day.
7738. Well, supposing the Italian shopkeepers were to put out certain signs or notices of that kind — in
their case it might have reference to the Mafia, or some[other objectionable organisation ;— would it not be
the duty of the police to make some inquiry on the subject ? If there was any apparent nuisance or
complaint no doubt they would. For my own part I would sooner have the Chinese than the Italians to
deal with ; they, the]Chinese, are a better class of people.
7739. I was not comparing them. Now, with regard to opium-smoking, Mr. Dawson, was there much of
that carried on in the northern end of the city in your time ? Yes, any amount of it. Some of the
Chinamen were convicted for selling opium ; there was a small penalty attached to it. I do not think
they could get a license for selling opium.
7740. Then opium-smoking used to be carried on to a large extent ? Yes, and is now. They smoke opium
in the locality where I reside now.
7741. Which do you think is worse as a habit, drinking or opium-smoking ? I think drinking is the
worse, decidedly. "When a Chinaman smokes opium it does not cause him to go and kick up a row in the
street ; and in all my experience I never saw but two drunken Chinamen.
7742. The drink has a tendency to rouse or excite a man's blood, and opium to make him sleepy, or com-
atose— that is what you mean, I suppose ? Yes.
7743. But surely opium-smoking must injure the health ? I think bad grog is equally as injurious as
opium.
7744. Did you ever see any woman under the influence of opium while you were on duty in that district ?
No ; I think the only case within my experience was in a lane off Groulburn-street, when I was in charge
of the gasworks. In Durand's Alley there were two or three women, but the police hunted them out.
7745. Do you think it would be well to confine the Chinese to one particular part of the city ? I think
they are. pretty well together as it is ; that is, they reside near each other.
7746. Supposing they were kept somewhere in the suburbs, how would that do ? Yes. Of course I am
not speaking of the merchants or business people ; — they are a very good class of people ; — but those who
smoke opium, and so forth. I think it would be well if they had a place to themselves.
7747. At the time gambling was carried on in any of these tenements during your official career in Lower
George-street, who were the greatest frequenters of such places ? The Chinamen.
7748. "Were there no Europeans ? No ; probably not more than one in twelve months.
7749. "Would you be surprised to know that the Chinese gambling-dens are patronised by hundreds of
Europeans in one week at the present time ? No ; I heard it is ; that is, I suppose the lotteries have
been introduced; they go in for lotteries.
7750. Did you ever take a ticket in one ? Never in my life. It has come to the front since I left.
7751. It is a new game then ? Yes. I think they have taken the cue from the Europeans.
7752. President.'] Now, Mr. Dawson, I want to give you an opportunity of refuting certain statements
that have been made affecting you. I think you said you have never had any transactions with "Way Kee
since the one you have mentioned ? That is all.
7753. "Was "Way Kee, to your knowledge, a receiver of stolen property, in the shape of old metal, say ?
No ; he buys old metal and all kinds of stuff.
7754. Does he receive old metal from boys, and have you, as a police officer, been to search his premises
for stolen property of the kind ? "Well, when a report came to the police of property being missed, we
would go round to all the Chinese places where they bought such stuff.
7755. Was "Way Kee, in your opinion, a likely man to knowingly receive stolen property ? I believe him
to be an honest man.
7756. If anyone has stated that you were aware of "Way Kee being a receiver of stolen property, but
refrained from prosecuting him for reasons best known to yourself, that would be a falsehood ? It would.
How could I ? Supposing you lost some property and reported the matter to the police, and we went
round together to make search for it, and suppose that we saw the property in some person's place, how
could I be a party to it ?
7757. "Would you be surprised to learn that "Way Kee's clerk has alleged that "Way Kee paid you £20
over and above the rent for the garden he leased from you ? He never did so in his life. If his receipt-
books were here you could see for yourselves. I gave him a receipt for everything he ever paid.
7758. Then you would be surprised if such a statement was made ? Yes, indeed.
7759. And it is utterly untrue that any money was lent to you ? Yes.
7760.
£96 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. 7760. You never had auy transactions with Way Kee other than the renting of the garden at North
.J. Dawson, shore ? No ; never in my life.
'~^~^T^, 7761. And if anyone has stated that any money was paid to you by way of a bribe, to corrupt you in
Si Oct., 1891. y0Ur official capacity, that would be a lie ? Yes.
7762. You give it a distinct denial ? Yes, I do.
7763. You acquired your property in a perfectly honourable manner ? Yes ; I can show you. Seventeen
years ago I bought 50 feet of ground at 25s. a foot, and the same ground is worth £9 or £10 a foot to-
day. I bought the garden at North Shore for £230— that is 9 acres, at £25 an acre, — and "Way Kee took
a lease of it. Then the railway went through about three years ago, and I was paid £1,200 compensa-
tion for the resumption of 3 acres and 14 perches of it. To make that purchase 1 took the money out of
the Barrack-street Savings Bank." I was enabled to put by money out of my earnings, being a saving
man and living rent-free in the watch-house, and not spending my money in the public-house, or other-
wise foolishly.
7764. Do you know Sergeant Higgins ? I do.
7765. Has he acquired some property ? He has.
7766. What was the origin of his good fortune — do you know ? He began by buying a piece of cheap land.
7767. Whereabouts ? In Gloucester-street— near Kendall's mill.
7768. And he built some houses there ? Yes ; he built them very cheap too.
7769. How long has he been out of the force ? Pour or five years. He is a special constable on the
wharf now. He broke his leg while hunting a Chinese smuggler, and was pensioned off.
7770. Then you know pretty well how Sergeant Higgins did. acquire his property? I do, undoubtedly.
7771. Mr. Quonq Tart.] Do you know how long ago it is since the game of pak-ah-pu started in Sydney —
the Chinese lottery, I mean ? It must have been five or six years ago. When I was in the Gas Com-
pany's employ I used to go round among the Chinese collecting money from them for the company.
7772. Did you ever know of any of the respectable Chinese merchants club together for the purpose of
putting down gambling in your time ? Yes ; and I know you took a very active part yourself.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. Thomas Q.uealy called and examined : —
Mr. 7773. President.'] Where do you reside ? At the " Shannon Hotel," corner of Biley and Stanley Streots.
T. Quealy. 7774. You have been in the New South Wales police force ?. Yes.
f~ -—"-^"^ 7775. When did you retire from the force? In August last.
21 Oct., 1891. 777Q How long were you in the police force ? Six years and ten months.
7777. In what part of the city were you mostly on duty ? In Lower George-street.
7778. I suppose you know there are a number of Chinese gambling-houses in Lower George-street ? 1 do.
7779. Has the gambling been carried on publicly ? Yes.
7780. That is within your knowledge ? Yes.
7781. And within the knowledge of the police ? Undoubtedly.
7782. Did the police make any raids on these gambling-houses during your term of service ? Well, I think
they made three raids in about six years.
7783. Were you present on any of those occasions ? I believe I was present on one occasion.
7784. Who organised the raid ? I cannot tell you.
7785. In the ordinary course of police duty who would organise a raid — would it not be the inspector in
charge of the division ? I suppose it would.
7786. You were present on one occasion when a raid was made ? I think so.
7787. Where was that raid made ? That I cannot remember now.
7788. What was the Chinaman's name ? Moy Ping. It was next to the " Exchange Hotel," and took
place three or four months ago.
7789. That was the last raid. I am asking you about any raid at which you were present as a police
officer ? It was at Moy Ping's, about three or four months ago.
7790. Were there a number of Europeans present? There were.
7791. Was there any money on the table when the police entered? That I cannot say.
7792. You have been in these gambling-houses at various times, have you not ? Yes ; I have been in
them.
7793. That is, not when raids have been made, but in the ordinary exercise of your duty ? Yes.
7794. And I suppose you have seen money on the table, but on this particular occasion when the raid
was made you did not ? No.
7795. The probability is that the money was there ? Yes, undoubtedly.
7796. I suppose the people all scampered away when the raid was made ? Yes.
7797. And the gas was turned off? Yes.
7798. So that if there was money on the table you could not have seen it ? No ; personally, I could not.
7799. Did the police on that occasion light the gas ? I do not understand you.
7800. On the occasion when the last raid was made I understood you to say the gas was out when the
police went in ? No, it was not.
7801. And yet you saw no money on the table ? Personally, I did not.
7802. Were you not left in possession of the room ? No.
7803. Did not the players clear away and leave the police there ? They did.
7804. But there was no money on the table ? At the time I left there was not.
7805. Then you did not go in first ? No ; there was no money on the table when I went in.
7806. Did you while you were in the force ever receive any instructions from your superior officers as
to how you were to conduct yourself with regard to these gambling-houses ? No.
7807. You never received instructions to enter these gambling-houses and disperse the people you found
there ? No ; and I do not think I could receive any from them.
7808. Why not ? The law would not allow them to do so.
7809. As a matter of fact, your attention was never directed to these gambling-houses bv vour superior
officer? No. s * J ' *
7810-11.
-CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE1. 19*
7810-11. Did you ever hear of your superior officers having received any presents from arty of the Chinese Mr-
residents in Lower George-street ? So far as I am concerned, I cannot say that with reference to more I'('™?'
than one, and only one. awW^sai'
7812. And who is it ? Mr. Atwill. 21 °ct' 1891,
7813. Did he ever receive a present to your knowledge ? I do not believe he ever did. In fact I think
I could go so far as to say he never did.
7814. Did you ever receive any present? No ; I did not.
7815. Are you a married man? I am. not.
7816. Did you never hear of any furniture being presented to Inspector Atwill ? No, I did not ; and
I do not believe he received a single item from anyone in Lower George-street, and I say that though I
think he is an enemy of mine now.
7817. You are not on good terms with him ? I am.
7818. You just now said he was an enemy of yours now ? "Well, I do not know.
7819. He is not a friend of yours, is that it ? So far as I am concerned, he may be.
7820. "Was he the cause of your leaving the force ? No, he was not.
7821. "What particular reason have you to think he is antagonistic towards you ? Eeally, I do not know ;
I cannot offer you an explanation.
7822. Did not I understand you to say just now that he was no friend of yours, and that you had no
reason to speak well of him, or something to that effect ? I say at the present time.
7823. I do not care about the present, past, or future ;— I want to get at the fact as to whether you
regard him as a friend of yours ? A friend, do you say ?
7824. I am speaking plain English, I think ; — I want you to tell me whether you are on terms of friend-
ship with Mr. Atwill or whether you are not ? "Well, so far as I am concerned, I am not an enemy of his.
7825. Did you not say just now that you had no cause to speak well of Mr. Atwill, because he was no
friend of yours ; — what did you mean by that ? I do not think he ever treated me unfriendly.
7826. That is what I want to get at ; and it means, I suppose, that what you are saying is all the more
likely to be true ? That is what I have told you.
7827. You will tell me again if I wish you to tell it ; — now, do you know Way Kee? I do not think I
do personally.
7828. Will you swear you do not know Way Kee ? I will not swear that I do not know him ; probably
if you brought him before me I might identify him.
7829. You do not know Way Kee, who carries on business in Lower George-street. [Position of
premises explained]? Yes ; I know him now.
7830. Is he a man of good character ? I do not know anything about his character.
7831. Were you ever instructed to search his premises for stolen property ? No.
7832. For old metal, or anything of that kind ? No.
7833. Where did you bank when you were employed down in that part of the city? At various banks.
7834. At various banks ? No ; I beg pardon ; — I should say at the Barrack-street Savings Bank and St.
Joseph's Building Society.
7835. Were they the only places at which you had an account ? Yes ; they were in my time down there.
I have banked at various building societies.-
7836. Where did you bank when you joined the force ? At the Permanent Building Society, and the
Equitable.
7837. You put your savings into those institutions ? Yes.
7838. What were you before you became a policeman ? Well, I worked for about nine month* at a
wholesale druggist's store.
7839. What druggist's store was that ? Prosser's, in O'Connell-street.
7840. How long were you in that employ ? Between six and nine months.
7841. Then you left there to enter the force ? Yes.
7842. Had you any private means when you left Prosser's ? I had.
7843. Would you mind telling the Commission what you were possessed of at that time — how much you
had invested in the building society ? It was not invested in a building society at that time — it was cash.
7844. How much? About £175.
7845. You had saved that amount from your wages up to that time ? Yes ; from the year 1878 until
1884.
7846. At the time you joined the force how much were you getting as a wage ? At the time I left I was
getting 8s. 6d. a day.
7847. I suppose you got something like that all the while ? No ; I did not. You may average it at
7s. 6d. a day.
7848. Would that be counting Sundays ? Yes.
7849. Then your average wage would be what ? About £2 15s. per week.
7850. Then you had an allowance for clothing, and so on ? Yes.
7851. You saved money while you were in the police force ? Yes.
7852. Now I want you to understand that I am not going to deal unfairly towards you or the police. It
has been alleged that you drew £600 or £700 out of the bank ? It is not true.
7853. Wait a minute. It has been alleged that you drew out such a sum of money, just about the time
you left the force ; — is that true ? It is not true.
7854. Is it true that you are possessed in any way of £600 or £700 worth of property ? No ; I wish
I was.
7855. I am asking you these question because of certain allegations that have been made concerning you
and your late comrades, and I want to give you an opportunity of explaining yourself ? So far as my
comrades are concerned I know nothing. I am here as an independent witness. Do not connect me
with my late comrades. I do not know who you are.
7856. You must not bandy words with me ; and if you do not answer the questions properly I shall have
to take steps to compel you. You say you have been a single man, employed in the police force of the
Colony, and have saved money out of your wages ? Undoubtedly I have.
7857. And what money you now possess you became possessed of by honourable means ? Undoubtedly so.
7858. And you are not ashamed to show this Commission — you have, in fact, explained how you came by
some of it — how you have acquired anything you may possess ? I should think not. 7859."
198 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 7S59. You say it is not true that you drew £600 or £700 out of the bank ? It is not true.
T. Quealy. -y(;0 ^U(j jt \8 qUjte untrue that you accepted any money or presents from any of the Chinese residents
owT^BQi 'n Lower George-street ? It is not true. I think the only witness who told you that is Armstrong.
31 Oct., 1891. 78(il Mr jiawtiwrne] Have you read his evidence ? I did ; and I think it is all corrupt.
7SG2. How did you come to read that ? I got it from the Government Printing Office.
7803. How was that — did you go up to the counter at the Government Printing Office, and ask for a
copy of the evidence ? I did not.
7864. How did you come to get a copy of the evidence ? I saw it at the place where I live.
7865. "We must know how you came possessed of it — this is important ? I got it from a man who comes
to the place where I live.
7866. Does he work at the Government Printing Office ? I cannot say.
7867. Does he live with you ? He does not.
7868. How come he to give it to you ? I cannot tell you.
7869. Tou know the man ? I do.
7870. "What is his name ? I cannot tell you his name.
7871. Tell me how he came to show it to you ? He came in, and asked me if my name was Quealy, and
I replied that it was, and then he asked me if I was the person referred to in the evidence.
7872. Does this man work at the Government Printing Office ? I cannot say.
7873. Since you know him, it seems strange you should not know where he works ;— are you quite sure
now ? 1 did not know him until about six weeks ago.
7874. How is it he came to imagine that you were interested in the matter ? He came in to have a
drink at the place where I live. He was introduced to me ; he then asked me if I was the Quealy
referred to in the examination before the Chinese Gambling Commission, and I said I did not know.
7875. And I suppose he then produced a copy of the evidence, and handed it to you ; — is that it ? I do
not know what he did produce.
7876. Did he hand you the evidence as it was printed ? "Well, I cannot swear to that.
7877. But you got a copy of the evidence— you have it at home ? No, I have not. But I read the
statement in print that Armstrong made concerning me.
7878. President.'] Do you know Mr. Armstrong ? Yes, well, sir.
7879. AVas it Mr. Armstrong who came to see you at your lodgings ? No.
7880. "Who was it ? I cannot tell you his name — Sid. something. I forget the other name.
7881. Had you seen him often before ? Two or three times.
7882. You will have to come here again, and give us an opportunity of finding this man ? I will give
you all the information I can. I am not frightened.
7883. "We must know about this copy of the evidence you have seen, and you had better save yourself the
trouble of coming here again by telling us now ? All I know is that Armstrong said I drew something
like £600 out of a certain bank, and that I applied for a license of an hotel in Balmain, and also in
Woolloomooloo, all of which is untrue.
7884. There is no doubt from what you say that you have read the printed evidence ? I have.
7885. Then did the man take the copy of the evidence away with him, or did he leave it with you ? He
did not leave it with me.
7886. How long did the man stay with you ? I cannot tell you.
7887. Did he stay a whole day ? No.
7888. Half-a-day ? He did not.
7889. "Was that before or ofter breakfast that you saw him ? It was after breakfast.
7890. Did he stay till lunch-time r He did not.
7891 . Where was it that he came to see you ? At the place where I am staying.
7892. Where is that ? At the corner of Stanley and Biley Streets.
7893. Did he tell you who sent him ? No.
7894. Did you ask him ? No.
7895. It did not occur to you to ask him ? No.
7896. Were you sober at the time ? I was.
7897. And it never occurred to you to ask who sent him? No. But I think he came of his own accord.
7898. But what caused him to come to you. I suppose he would not do so without a reason ? Well
there are two or three persons of the same name keeping hotels in Woolloomooloo ; and he came into my
place and asked me if I was the person concerned in this.
7899. And it never occurred to you to ask him what interest he took in you ? No ; I do not see why
I should.
7900. That would depend entirely upon the mental constitution of the person. At all events I want to
know who the man is that brought that evidence to you ? I cannot tell you at all. I could identify the man.
7901. Can you find him ? That I cannot say.
7902. Can you try, or can you tell me where we are likely to find him ? Yes, in Woolloomooloo.
7903. In what part of Woolloomooloo ? I think you would be likely to find him at the corner of Francis
and Stanley Streets.
7904. Is that a hotel ? There is a hotel there.
7905. Is that the place I am to send to ? I cannot say where the man lives.
7906. Well shall I find out something about him there ? You might.
7907. It strikes me very forcibly you are drunk, sir ; if you do not give your evidence in a more straight-
forward and becoming manner we shall have to take you to the Police Court. I have the greatest
difficulty in getting any information out of you at all. But I am determined to have this information, so
you had better make up your mind quickly '? What information ?
7908. I have told you what I want to know, and if you are not very careful I will give you an opportunity
of thinking over it in solitude;— come, what is this man's name? It was a man by the name of Syd.
something. I forget the second name.
7909. Who sent him ? He came voluntarily to the place where I live, and said, " Are you the man con-
nected with this Chinese inquiry ?" and he had the printed paper in his possession. I think he said it was
some mistake he had to correct in it. I will give you all the information I have about it.
[[Further examination of the witness deferred till Friday, at 11 a.m.]
FRIDAY,
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 199;
FRIDAY, 23 OCTOBER, 1891.
fJrmnt:—
The Mayor of Sydney (Alderman MANNING, Esq., J.P.), President.
ERANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Peesident.
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Gerald Sibthorpe called and examined : —
7910. Mr. Abigail.] What occupation do you follow ? I am a printer. G- Sibthorpe.
7911. Where ? At the Government Printing Office. /-^*— >s
7912. What do you mean by a " printer;"— are you a compositor ? No, I am a machine-printer. 23 0ot-> 1891-
7913. How long have you been in that position ? About seventeen years.
7914. Tou have been occupied in some way in getting out the evidence of this Commission in the Govern-
ment Printing Office have you not ? I think so.
7915. Do you know Quealy ? Yes ; I know Quealy.
7916. When did you see him last ? I have not seen him I think for three or four months.
7917. You saw him with some of the evidence of the Commission in connection with a statement made by
one of the witnesses with reference to him, and asked him whether it was correct, did you not r Well, I
can explain that, gentlemen : I picked up a page of this evidence in Hordern Brothers. It was a spoiled
copy. I put it in my pocket (1 thought there was no harm in doing it), and I showed it to Quealy. I
did not know that the job was not worked off. I had been away from the office for three weeks.
7918. When did that happen ? About a month ago. I did not know that the sheets were not worked
off. _ I found it in the water-closet, and knowing that Quealy kept an hotel in Woolloomooloo I took it
to him to ask whether it was him, and he said that it was not him. He wanted me to give him a page of
it, but I tore it up.
7919. Mr. Hawthorne.} What water-closet did you find the copy of this evidence in ? In the water-closet
at the Government Printing Office.
7920. About how long ago ? About four or five weeks ago I should think, though it might be more.
7921. And how was it that you took it to Quealy ? Knowing him, I thought it might be his name that
was mentioned in it.
7922. Did you not think at the time that in handing him this copy of his evidence you were committing
a great breach of custom — that you were breaking a rule in connection with your office ? I did not think
so at the time, because I did not know what had become of the evidence.
7923. But is it usual in connection with the Government Printing Office to allow important evidence to
be placed in the water-closets for use there ? No, it was not placed there.
7924. Then how did it come there ? Well, you see in running the sheets through the machine some of
the corners of the paper might turn up, and they would throw the spoiled sheet into the waste-paper basket,
and anybody might pick it up and take it to the water-closet.
7925. Are they in the habit then when a sheet of evidence is a little disfigured in the printing, no matter
how important it is, to throw it into the waste-paper basket, and allow it to find its way into the general
dust-heap ? Well, I do it myself, and I suppose others do it too.
7926. You are in the printing branch ? Yes.
7927. And whenever you meet with a copy of evidence that is a little disfigured owing to the turning
down of a corner, or anything of that kind, you throw it into the waste-paper basket ? Yes, if it is torn
a little as well.
7928. So that according to your evidence no document is safe, however important it may be, if some little
accident has happened to it ? Well it may be thrown into the waste-paper basket.
7929. Then any document, however important, may in this manner find its way from the Government
Printing Office into the hands of the public ? Yes, I suppose it might.
7930. So that under those circumstances no document is secure in the Government Printing Office ?
Well, I suppose it might find its way into the waste-paper basket.
7931. I want you to be perfectly aware of the importance of the evidence you are giving ; we are now
inquiring into a matter of the gravest consideration in connection with the discipline of the Government
Printing Office ; — documents of the highest importance and secrecy are constantly passing through that
establishment, and if it is possible for them to find their way into the hands of the public, all sense of
security will inevitably be gone ; I say this in order to lead you to be particularly cautious in the evidence
you are giving to the Commission ; it will be all published, and the matter will be pretty sure to be
ventilated before long in the Legislative Assembly ? Yes ; I understand that.
7932. Mr. Abigail.'] Have you ever acted in that way before in connection with any other matter ? No ;
I never showed anything to anyone else.
7933. Did you ever get any instructions in the Government Printing Office that you were not to show
papers or anything of the kind there for the purpose of being printed to any one outside the office ? That
is the rule.
7934. Did you not know when you showed this paper to Quealy, that you were breaking that rule ?
No ; I thought the evidence had been worked off long ago.
7935. You did not take any trouble to ascertain, did you ; — were you not aware that the Commission was
still sitting ? No ; I did not know that at the time.
7936. Mr. McKillop.] Did you not see some reports in the papers a few weeks ago about a charge of
bribery being made against members of the police force in Lower George-street? No ; I did not notice
anything about it.
7937. Is it not a fact that you are often at Quealy's of an evening ? No ; not often.
7938. Not in your leisure time ? No ; I visit there very rarely.
7939. Did not Quealy ask you to get the evidence for him at the Government Printing Office ? It is so
long ago that I do not remember. I know he asked me to read that to him.
7940. Is it not a fact that Quealy asked you to get a copy of the evidence given by certain witnesses
called before this Commission for him, knowing, of course, that you wero working at the Government
Printing Office ? He may have done. 7941.
20»
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
G-. Sibihorpe. 79.41. j wjgn y0U to be sure of that, because we have Quealy's evidence here ? I would not be sure at the
2iwvT~'irqi Present time. It was a good while ago.
'' ' 7042. Did you ever have any conversation with Quealy about the evidence given before the Commission
previously to your showing him that particular piece of evidence ? No. I showed him this little bit. It
was only about a couple of lines.
7943. How long did he have it in his possession ? He did not have it in his possession at all.
7944. Was it a sheet of evidence like this — sixteen pages ? No ; it was only one page.
7945. "Which page was it ; how did you come across Quealy's name unless you had previously read more
of it ? I saw his name on the page I found in the water-closet.
7946. Look at these pages, and tell me which page it was that you showed to him ? It was page 2L.
7947. Was it not more than that, or only this one page ? This one page doubled over, and a piece torn
off the corner.
7948. How was it that it was only one page when several pages are printed together ? It was only this
one page.
7949. Mr. Hawthorne.] How long ago is it that you took it to Quealy? It must have been five or six
weeks ago. I have not been in his house since. Tes ; I am wrong. I have been in there once since.
7950. What made you think that the Commission had closed its labours, or that the job was finished ; — did
you mean by that that the evidence was not likely to be required again ? Tes.
7951. What made you think that it was struck off ? I thought that the job was complete.
7952. It did not seem like an old paper to you, did it ? I could not say exactly ; I do not know whether
I printed it or not.
7953. How long did you think that it had been printed? I could not tell you.
7954. Would you be surprised to know that it is only six weeks now since that evidence was printed ? I
could not tell you at all when it was printed.
7955. Well it is only six weeks ago since that was printed ; even assuming that it was printed the day
after he gave his evidence, which is hardly likely to have been the case ? Since who gave his evidence —
Quealy ?
7956. No ; Mr. Armstrong ? I do not know.
7957. Now is it not a matter of fact that you were in Quealy's house having a drink, when Quealy
said to you, " I would like you to get me a copy of the evidence that has been given to that Royal Com-
mission inquiry into the Chinese gambling question, because I understand that my name has been men-
tioned " ? He may have said so.
7958. So that it was acting upon instructions given to you by Quealy that induced you to search for
and obtain a copy of that portion of the evidence affecting himself ? No, sir.
7959. Well, you have admitted that Quealy did ask you for it ? He may have done when I showed him
his name. He may have then asked me to let him see a copy, but I do not care what he may have said
in his evidence ; I would not believe Quealy upon his oath, so much as I know of him.
7960. And did not you give him one? No.
7901. Well why did not you let him have the piece of paper that you showed to him when he asked you
for it ? He wanted to keep it, but I tore it up.
7962. Well but if it was only a useless bit of paper, there could be no harm in letting him have it.
Surely you would not object to letting a friend of yours have a useless bit of paper ? He is no friend
of mine.
7963. But you thought that it was only a useless piece of paper ? I thought so at the time.
7964. Did you not think that you were committing a great crime ? I did not think so then, but I see
now that it was wrong.
7965. Was he sober when you showed him the evidence ? No, I think he was pretty well on.
7966. Did he not give you anything for showing it to him ? No ; I would not have* taken anything from
him.
7967. Did he not give you a drink ? No ; I would not have taken it if he had offered it to me.
7968. Does he not ever " shout " for you ? Oh, perhaps, when first he went into the house he may have
done so.
7969. Well which of the Quealys is it who keeps the house ? There are two of them there.
7970. I am speaking of the ex-constable — we have been alluding to him all the while? Oh, then, he did
not see the evidence at all.
7971. Mr. McXillop.] Who did see it ? It was his brother — the man with the red moustaches. His
name is John Quealy.
7972. Who is the owner of the house — in whose name is the license taken out ? John Quealy is the
landlord.
7973. Tou said just now that you would not believe this Quealy ; — how was that? I am judging from
the reports that I have heard of him.
7974. Is it John Quealy you are speaking of now ? Tes ; the man with the red moustaches.
7975. What was he before he took the house ? I do not know ; I could not tell you.
7976. He is a stranger in Woolloomo.oloo, is he ? Tes.
7977. Mr. Hawthorne.'] What is your Christian name? Gerald.
7978. He calls you Sib ? Tes, they all call me Sib in Stanley-street.
7979. Then he must be on pretty intimate terms with you ? No, he is not.
7980. And if he says that ho knows you intimately, that is not true ? If he says that he knows me intimately
he tells a falsehood. I have not spoken a dozen words to him.
7981. Mr. McKillop.] And if he swears that he saw the whole of Mr. Armstrong's evidence it is untrue ?
Tes, that isthe man with the black moustaches that you are speaking of now. I hardly know him at all.
7982. And if he said that he asked you to show the evidence to him he said what was untrue? Quite
untrue. I never had any conversation with him on the subject at all.
7983. Is there much difference in the height of these two' men? Not much; they are both about the
same height.
7984. Are either of them married ? That I cannot tell you. I only know that they talked about not
getting their license, being single men.
James"
CHIHESB GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES QE EVIDENCE, $<H
Senior-constable James Beadman called and examined : —
7985. Mr. McKillop.} Tou are a member of the police force ? Yes, I am a senior constable. Sen-constable
7986. What district are you stationed in? I have been about eight and a half years in the police force ■Beadman-
altogether. During that time I spent two years in Balmain, doing uniform' duty. Prom Balmain I was 23^^891
transferred to Sydney, and for the last three and a half years I have been doing plain clothes duty in
No.^4 district (Lower George-street) , under Inspector Atwill.
7987. Has the gambling amongst the Chinese and Europeans in Lower Geor°e-street increased since you
first came into that district ? No.
7988. How .many gambling places are there in Lower George-street? Well, to the best of my belief
there are about four or five in which Europeans are in the habit of gambling.
7989. Do you know the names of the proprietors of those houses ? Well there are so many Chinese
names above the shops down there that I cannot remember them all, but I know the places themselves
very well. There is Moy Ping's, however. I know that. Moy Ping's name is not over the door, but
it is No. 226, and the number is over the door. I believe there are about four such places altogether.
7990. That is four places in which Europeans are in the habit of gambling. Is that all ;— how many
gambling-dens are there altogether in Lower George-street ? Do you mean how many places in which
the Chinese gamble among themselves ?
7991. I mean in which either the Chinese gamble among themselves or with Europeans ? To the best of
my knowledge there are some four or five in which Europeans gamble, and the Chinese gamble among
themselves in pretty well all the places I think ; but in those places they do not allow any Europeans
at all.
7992. Have any raids been made by the police since you have been in the Lower George-street district?
Yes.
7993. How many ? Three or four.
7994. Three or four in the course of three years ? Yes, about three years.
7995. Have any arrests been made as a result of those raids ? Yes, a number — forty or fifty in some
instances. I think we made fifty-one arrests in the last raid — fifty-one including both Chinese and
Europeans.
7996. What has been done with them in the Court ? They have been fined— some fined £50, some 40s.,
and so on.
7997. Have any been sentenced to imprisonment without the option of a fine ? No, none.
7998. Have you ever frequented any of these gaming-houses in your capacity as a plain clothes
constable ? I have. In fact I have had instructions from Inspector Atwill to visit them every week.
He has spoken to me specially about it.
7999. Have you been in the habit of going there single-handed ? No, Senior-constable Carson and I go
together.
8000. You say that you have frequently visited these places in your official capacity ? Yes, for the
purpose of seeing if there are any small boys or young girls there. It has often been said that children
are decoyed into the Chinese places, and then drugged with opium.
8001. Have you ever seen any gambling going on when you have been in any of those places ? No ; that
is, I have never seen any Europeans playing with them.
8002. Is it not a fact that Europeans go into these places morning, noon, and night ? No, they used to.
8003. I am not speaking of the last few weeks since the Commission has been sitting, I am speaking
of two or three months ago, and still further back ? It is true that they used to some two or three years
ago, but there have been three or four big strikes in Sydney lately, and we have had very little gambling
since. They have made a great difference to that part of the town. Nobody has had any money to
gamble with lately.
8004. You are sure that there have been three or four big strikes in Sydney within the last year or two ?
Well, there have been three strikes, I think. There was the great maritime strike about this time last
year.
8005. And it is in consequence of those strikes that the gambling has decreased ? Yes ; anybody could
see the difference. People have not had the money to spend lately. 'The strikes have had a ruinous
effect upon business generally in that part of the town.
8006. Have you ever received any presents from the Chinese, either in money or in kind ? No ; I have
not.
8007. Have you ever received any trivial gifts at the Chinese new year for instance — presents of jars of
ginger or chests of tea ? No, I have not.
8008. Then i£ anybody says that you have would they be speaking the truth or saying what is false ?
No ; they would be saying what was false. I defy any man to say that since I joined the police force I
have had anything presented to me except what has been presented to me in a public manner, and has
found its way immediately into the Press. When I left Balmain for example, I had an address and a
diamond ring presented to me. The Mayor made the presentation publicly, and the address was signed
by the Mayor and aldermen.
8009. Have you received any presents at all since you were transferred to No. 4 district ? No.
8010. Have you received nothing from the Chinese ? No ; nor from anybody else in Lower George-
street.
8011. Have you any property? Yes ; I have some horses and cattle, and that sort of thing. They are
up the country. You can find out exactly how I came by them if you care to inquire into the matter.
8012. You had that before you joined the police? Yes; I can give you all the facts in connection with
it. I have a small farm at IJlladulla.
8013. Are you a native of this country ? Yes, of Braidwood. Mr. Quong Tart knows my wife's people
— the Finches ; they keep an hotel at Braidwood, and he has stayed with them sometimes.
8014. Do you know a Mr. Gouldtown ? Yes ; I know him a little.
8015. What sort of a reputation does he bear? I do not know anything against him, except that he
tendered a valueless cheque to the proprietor of No. 2 Coffee Palace on one occasion.
8016. What sort of people visit these gambling-dens in Lower George-street ? They are principally
working men.
272—2 C 8017.
202 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sen.-constable 8017. Do clerks and shop-assistants, and people of that kind, go there to play very much ? Well the
Beadman. jjjg^t fa^ we ma(]e the raid on Moy Ping's place we caught a number of well-dressed people.
a^TTT'iRqi 8018- ^rnat is tne number of gambling-dens in that part of the town altogether — places where Chinese
° ' and Europeans gamble together, and where Chinese gamble alone? Well, I suppose, altogether (includ-
ing the places where the Chinese gamble amongst themselves), there must be about eighteen; but when
we see the Chinese gambling among themselves we cannot tell whether they are gambling for money or
r.ot. I have seen large numbers of them playing round a table, and they were playing with the same
kind of counters as they use when they are playing with Europeans.
8019. Is it a fact that you have entered these places when gambling was in full swing between.the Chinese
and Europeans ? No ; I never caught them actually playing.
8020. Do you remember ever having seen that place [« photograph of a Chinese gambling-shop] ? Tes ;
that is near Parker's Hotel.
8021. Do you know what those white placards, outside the shop, denote ? Well I made inquiries from
the Chinese interpreter, and he told me what it was in English.
8022. How long ago was that ? I reported upon the matter four or five weeks ago. What the interpreter
told me was this -. That in English the placards meant, " Ean-tan played here morning and evening." That
is how he interpreted it to me. Of course I did not understand it myself.
8023. But do not you consider that it was your duty as police officer to make inquiries with regard to
notices appearing on the outside of- buildings, especially when those notices were in a foreign language
which you did not understand ;— was it not your duty as police officer, knowing that you had an inter-
preter at your back, to find out what the notices meant ; — did it never strike you in that light ? No. I
cannot say that it did.
8024. Did your superior officer ever instruct you to make inquiries on that point? As to the interpreta-
tion of the notices, no.
8025. Then for all you knew there might have been notices posted up there for the purpose of causing a
revolution, and you would still have been ignorant of the fact ? Quite so. There are a number of cook-
shops in which the Chinese play among themselves, and there are a number of these notices stuck up in
each of them, so they might have been notices to show that they were cook-shops or something of that
kind.
8026. Mr. Hawthorne.] You mean that they might have been business advertisements ? Yes, ordinary
business advertisements.
8027. Mr. McKillop.] Do you think that the law relating to gambling is stringent enough to check this
particular evil ? No, I do not.
8028. You think that the police have not sufficient power vested in them ? I think not. In order to
effect an entrance it is necessary that we should have a warrant, and each warrant only lasts a month ;
when the month is over it is no good ; then before we can make a raid we are, obliged to arm ourselves
with sledge-hammers in order to get in ; the doors are so strong and so securely fastened. That is how we
got into Moy Ping's place. We took crow-bars with us to break the doors in. Previous to making that
raid we were watching that place for several nights. Inspector Atwill told men off especially for that
duty, so that we could catch them at the game. Sometimes they were playing and sometimes they were
not. We made the raid when a great number of people were inside, and we had to burst the doors.
8029. Mr. Hawthorne.] Is it a fact that the day before you made the raid some of you policemen went
round, saying that you wanted to borrow implements to break into Moy Ping's, because you were going
to make a raid there ? No, it is not.
8030. Then if anyone has stated in evidence that you did so they would be telling a deliberate falsehood ?
Yes, they would. AVe had strict instructions from Inspector Atwill that we were not to go for the
crow-bars until late that evening. My mate, Senior-constable Carson, went to the Water Police Court,
where some men were taking up drain-pipes, and borrowed some crow-bars from them. 1 went to Foster
Bros.' pawn-shop and got a crow-bar there. They are very respectable people, and I have frequently to
visit the place in search of stolen property, which might have been pawned there. I took my macintosh
with me, so that I could slip the crow-bar under it to prevent people from seeing it.
8031. So that if anybody said that a few days beforehand you went to get crow-bars, and explained that
you wanted them because you were going to make a raid on Moy .Ping's, it would be telling a deliberate
falsehood ? Yes.
8032. Mr. McKillop.] You have been in the Lower George-street district for three years and a half?
Yes.
8033. And during that time there have been three or four raids made ? Yes ; I have been in three of
them myself, and on one occasion during my absence they made a raid, I believe.
8034. What were the intervals between each raid ? I think about six or seven, or perhaps eight months.
8035. Do you not think that if these raids had been more frequent they would have had the effect of
suppressing the evil to a very great extent — if only by harassing the gambling-house proprietors?
There is no doubt that if they had been playing during all that time there would have been more frequent
raids, but during the strike the Europeans did not play at all. They had no money to play with. The
people did not frequent the gambling-shops at all. There is one place in Beale's buildings, a little lower
down than the Coffee Palace, opposite to Williams' the jeweller, which has been rebuilt since I came to
Sydney. The landlord would not let it to any person except a European, and kept it idle for some months,
but he could not let it to anybody, so he had to let it to the Chinese after all.
8036. I daresay you have given this matter a good deal of thought ? Yes, I have.
8037. What plan do you think it would be advisable to adopt for the purpose of checking the evil?
Well that, of course, I cannot say.
8038. Mr. Hawthorne.] Has it ever occurred to your mind what would be a good method to adopt on the
part of the authorities for the suppression of gambling. Of course it is only your opinion that we are
asking for ? Yes ; it is only my opinion, but that is of very little account, and it might be thought that I
was giving expression to too much.
8039. Mr. McKillop.] But when you are before a Eoyal Commission it is your duty to give expression to
opinion if you are asked to do so, and in this instance you have an intimate knowledge of the subject, and
your opinion may have a good effect ? I think that if the law was more severe it would be better.
8040. Do you think that it would be better if the law said that if any gambling implements were found in
these places the occupants of the house ought to be indicted ? Yes, I do. 8041.
PHDfESB GAMBLING COMMISSION— MIinjTES OP EVIDENCE, 203
8011. Do you also think that the landlord ought to he punished if, after receiving due notice from the 6lffli.-wnstety9
police that gambling is being carried on on his premises, he pays no attention to the warning, but allows ,Beadmaii."
his tenants to continue the evil ? "Well there is no doubt that if that was the law property- owners would '"^Tooi
not let tehir premises to that class of Chinamen at all. ' ■ Oot,> 1891"
8042. "Well, as you know, if a public-house is carried on badly, and the police find it necessary to inter-
fere, the man loses his license, and the landlord has to suffer. Would it not be much the same in the
case of gambling. Do you not think that the landlord after getting due notice should be punished if he
still allows the occupants to carry on the gambling business? Tes, if he is aware that gambling is
carried on.
8043. And you think that the police ought to have more power to enter the premises about which they
have suspicion without going to the unnecessary trouble of getting a warrant ? I do.
8044. So that they could then pounce down upon these men at any moment, and catch them red-handed?
Yes ; it would be better.
8015. Because by having to go for warrants it gives the delinquents time, and by when you are readv to
put the warrants in force it frequently happens that the birds are flown ? Tes.
8046. Did you ever have luuch with the keepers of any of these gambling-houses ? Not with the keepers.
I may tell you that I have been into Moy Ping's place, and received valuable information in connection
with thefts. In fact Moy Ping's brother, Moy Touk, gave me information that led to the discovery of a
watch stolen by a man named Brown. Moy Ping drew my attention to it. I asked him if anybody had
been in with the watch, and he said that he had bought a pawn-ticket from a man. I looked at the,
number on the ticket and found that it represented the stolen watch. He gave me the watch, and Brown
was brought to justice. Moy Ping has given us' a good deal of information.
8047. Tou do admit that you have had lunch with some of the Chinese ? Tes.
8048. Would you name some of them ? Tes ; I have had lunch with On, of the firm of On Chong
& Co. ; I have had lunch with Sam Ting. He used to be in Braidwood, and had race-horses. In
fact I rode his horse for him once or twice.
8049. Tou knew him intimately, then, before you joined the police force ? , Tes.
8050. Tou never adjourned to a public-house with any of these gambling-house proprietors, did you ?
Tes ; I have had drinks with Moy Ping. He has shouted sometimes, and I have shouted sometimes.
8051. That was the keeper of the house where the last raid was made ? Tes, of course. When we find
that people are willing to assist us by giving us information we like to be courteous to them.
8052. That is, for policy's sake ? Tes ; we have to do that sort of thing. We have to mis up with
prostitutes and thieves, and all sorts of queer characters. In fact many a 5s. and 10s. I have given to
thieves in order to get information out of them.
8053. Prom what you say I conclude that you and Senior-constable Carson are always in company ?
Tes, every morning and every night. We meet at the station every morning and arrange our plans there
for the rest of the day, as we think best.
8051. Is there a great deal of prostitution carried on in that part of the town? No, not a great deal.
There is some, no doubt. Some have been brought up for being common prostitutes.
8055. And you were never presented by any Chinaman with a diamond pin or a diamond ring ? No. I
bought and paid for the ring I have, and the breast-pin too. I can mention the names of the persons I
bought them from, if you like.
8056. It would be just as well? I bought the ring from Mr. Alexander Smail.
8057. Alexander Smail, the baker ? Tes ; he is living privately now.
8058. Was that the diamond ring alluded to by members of the deputation, do you think ? Perhaps it
was ; I do not know.
8059. President.] Have you any more rings ? Tes ; I have the diamond ring presented to me by the
Mayor and aldermen of Balmain. Then I have a watch presented to me by Mr. Gr. P. Dibbs (the Premier),
Mr. T. A. Dibbs, Mr. T. B. Gaden, the Hon. John Lackey, and other gentlemen. They gave me that soon
after I joined the police force.
8060. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Tou had a diamond ring presented to you by the Mayor and aldermen of
Balmain ? Tes.
8061. The watch-chain you are wearing now you bought, I suppose ? Tes.
8062. The medal attached to it you appear to have won at the Balmain regatta ? Tes ; in 1885. I was
an amateur sculler. It was a wager-boat race. The inscription is as follows : — " Won by James Beadman,
junior, wager-boat race, November 5th, 1885." The other one I won at the New South Wales Eowing
Association regatta.
8063. And the diamond ring you have on your finger you purchased from Alex. Smail, of Miller's Point ?
Tes ; and I paid him £10 for it.
8064. And the silver watch you are wearing was presented to you, as the inscription on the inner case
denotes, by a few gentlemen, to mark their appreciation of your courageous conduct in rescuing a lad
from drowning, on the 14th August, 1883 ? Yes. I got promotion to the rank of first-class constable
thi'ough that. It was brought under the notice of the Inspector-G-eneral.
8065. Mr. MoKillop.] Those 'are the whole of the presents that have been made to you? Tes.
8066. And that is the ring you have been in the habit of wearing ? Tes. I have not mentioned where I
got the pin from yet.
8067. Where did you get it ? I bought it from Poster Bros.' pawn-shop. I do not know whether it was
5 guineas or £5 10s., but I think it was £5 10s. that I paid for it.
8068. Do Poster Bros, do much pawning for the gambling-dens ? That I cannot say. We are in there
pretty often, and I have seen a number of Chinese go in at different times to pawn things.
8069. Is it not a fact that a large number of wharf labourers, coal-lumpers, seamen, and. others lose the
whole of their wages there on a Saturday night ? I have heard that they do, but do not know from
personal experience.
8070.- Have you seen men's wives standing in the street begging of their husbands to come out of the
dens ? No ; I have not.
8071. Have you seen any of their wives at the police .station, informing the officer-in-charge that their
husbands are gambling in these dens, and asking them to go and fetch them out ? Not to my_ knowledge.
Of course, that might happen when I have been out of the office, but I have never witnessed it,
8d72. Have ydti get a large banking1 accbunt ? Well I do not see, with all due respect to the Committee,
that
204 CHINESE GAMBIIJTG COMMISStOJf — MKTUTES OT EVIDENCE,
Sen.-constoble that I should be called upon by any person to answer questions relating to my private business. What
Beadman. money j have g0t j can fuiiy account for if necessary, but I do not see that 1 should be asked to make
J3"oItl891 m-Y Private affair3 Public'
"8073. Let me explain to you, Mr. Beadman, that I am putting these questions to you for your own
benefit. Aspersions have been cast upon your character which, it is to your interest to disprove, and it is
only by our following this line of examination that you will have a chance of doing so ; otherwise, as far
as we are personally concerned, we should very much prefer to say nothing about your private affairs ? I
know that, gentlemen. I quite understand your motives in putting these questions to me, but of course
nobody cares to have his private business made known to the public. As a matter of fact, I have a few
hundred pounds in the bank. Then I have property which has been bringing me in a few pounds for a
long time. That property was left to me when I was 16 years of age.
8074. And now, as to the salary you have been receiving while you were in the police force. You were
in the service a very short time before you were promoted to the rank of senior-constable ? I was only
in the service a very short time before I was promoted to the rank of first-class constable for getting the
boy out of the harbour. Then I was made a non-commissioned officer, and then an inspector under the
Licensing Act. That position, however, I had to resign when I began to do plain clothes duty, because
we have frequently to get information from the publicans.
8075. "What is your salary at the present time ? From the police'it is about £3 7s. 6d. a week.
8076. Are you a married man ? I am. I have a wife and three children, and one dead.
8077. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Have you seen a copy of the evidence given before the Commission in regard to
yourself ? No ; I have not.
8078. Have you seen a copy of any of the evidence at all ? No ; I have not.
8079. You have seen none of the evidence given before the Commission since it started ? No ; I have
seen none of it.
8080. Do you know Mr. Nock, of the firm of Felton and Nock ? Yes ; I know him well.
8081. What kind of a man is he ? He has always been a decent sort of man, so far as I know. He and
I had a little bit of an altercation some time time ago.
8082. What was it about ; — was is it about a diamond ring ? I will explain it to you if you wish.
8083. Go on ? At [one time Senior-constable Carson and I arrested a man in Lower George-street,
carrying an iron last under his coat. We took him to the station and made inquiries, and found it was
stolen from Felton and Nock's shop in Erskine-street. He was a loafer — a man about whom we had
entertained suspicions for a long time. I asked Mr. Nock about the last, and he identified it as his
property. The next day I asked him to come to the Court for the purpose of prosecuting this man, and
he said, " I shall not go over to the Court losing my time over it," I said, " If every man were like you
and would not prosecute these loafers, people would be robbed right and left." He said, " If you and
your wooden-headed inspector would go and prosecute the Chinese more than you do it would be more
to your credit."
81)84. How long ago was that ? It was about six months ago, I think.
8085. That was the first time that you and Mr. Nock had any altercation "i Yes ; and since that he has
seemed to be quite indifferent to me. I think no less of him, however. He is a decent and respectable
citizen.
8086. He refused to go to the Court to prosecute the thief ? Yes ; but he sent his man after all.
8087. He spoke in disrespectful terms to you of Inspector Atwill V Yes ; he spoke of " you and yeur
wooden-headed inspector, or your wooden-headed force." I forget which — and I lost my temper I admit,
and said something that I do not think I should have said.
8088. You know Mr. Nolan, one of the shopmen at Felton and Nock's ? Yes ; I do.
8089. Do you remember having been in the shop in company with Senior-constable Carson, at any
time, having a conversation with Mr. Nock or Mr. Nolan ? Well, I have been in Felton's and Nock's
very often. Some bad notes (Commercial Bank notes) were passed on him at one time, and I had a
conversation with him then ; but since we had that bit of tiff I have gone in as usual and bought things
from him.
8090. Did he, on the occasion of any of your visits to his establishment, say anything about the police
being presented with jars of ginger, or chests of tea, or watches, or watch-chains ? No ; he did not.
8091. He never confronted you with a charge of having received bribes ? He never did. If he had done
so I would not have let it rest at that — not likely.
8092. Did you and your mate on one occasion stand opposite Mr. Nock's establishment in a defying mood,
exhibiting your rings ? Well, we had heard that Mr. Nock had been casting aspersions on the character
of the police force, and my mate stood opposite his shop, and said, alluding to his ring, " There is no
doubt that it is a good ring, only it is not as good as yours. It is not a diamond."
8093. And he happened at that time to be in front of Mr. Nock's shop ? Yes ; I do not think that he
did it to insult Mr. Nock in any way. He has a very large ring, and generally wears it on the end of his
watch-chain as a seal. If he gives evidence here you will see it.
809-1. Have you been in the habit of going in and out of any of the refreshment-rooms in Lower G-eorge-
street with the Chinese, allowing them to shout for refreshments for you ? Only with the one or two
that I have referred to. By going into the refreshment-rooms I suppose you mean the oyster-shops.
I have been there with On.
8095. Have you been in the oyster-saloon with any other Chinese resident except On ? Yes ; with
the other one whom I have known so long at Braidwood. He is an old Chinaman that I have known for
twenty-six years.
8096. What is his name ? Sam Ying.
8097. Is he connected with gambling in any way ? No ; not that I am aware of. He used to have plenty
of money at one time. I do not think he has any necessity to gamble.
8098. He is a man of means, is he ? Yes ; when' he was at Braidwood he had plenty of money.
8099. But you admit having been in the oyster-saloon with these two men, and they have shouted ? Yes ;
when Sam Ying was in Sydney, at 227, G-eorge-street, a big merchant, he had a valuable watch stolen from
him, together with some money and something else ; and I went in a cab with him on several occasions
to Waterloo to try and arrest the Chinaman suspected of the theft, but we always failed to get him. I
think he went home to China.
8100.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 205
8100. In fact you knew him when you were almost a boy ? Yes ; I have known him since I was a boy so Sen.-oonitable
high. I respect him as much as any man I know in Sydney, European, or anybody else. He is a thorough Beadman.
gentleman. ^— ^-— -.
8101. Do you remember having met Mr. Maguire, the photographer, on one occasion, when he was walking 23 0ot' 1891'
down Lower George-street with Mr. Andy Kelly, the Member of Parliament ? Yes ; I do.
8102. Did you say to him on that occasion that it was very hard that these charges should be made against
the police? I did.
8103. And did you inform him that the diamond ring you were wearing was bought at the pawn-shop
down the street ? No ; I could not say that.
8104. If Mr. Maguire said that you, in an apologetic manner, said that vou bought it at the pawn-shop, he
was stating what was not a fact ? Quite so. I was wearing this pin at"the time, and I said, " I expect I
am the man referred to by the Anti-Chinese Gambling League as the policeman with the diamond pins and
jewellery." I said to him, "To the best of my recollection, I bought this pin at Foster Brothers' pawn-shop,"
but I do no think that I told him where I got the riug.
S105. But at all events you are positive that you did not bay the ring in a pawn-shop ? No ; I did not
buy the ring I was wearing in a pawn-shop. I did buy a ring in a pawn-shop— a diamond ring too. It
had been pledged for 30s., and I paid £2 for it, and paid up the interest due upon it too. It was a ring
worth £5. I bought it from a man named Moss.
8106. Was he the proprietor of the pawn-shop ? No ; he owned the pawn-ticket. He was the man who
had pledged it at Foster Brothers'. It stood me in altogether 42s. 6d. I have the ring, but the stone I have
lost. It was a claw setting, and one of the claws broke off one Sunday a few weeks ago, and I do not
know what became of the diamond.
8107. Did Mr. Maguire say to you, " You seem to be very flurried. If there is nothing in these charges
why do you mind them ?" He said nothing of the kind.
8108. At the same time do you think that if he had made such a remark it would have had sufficient effect
upon you to make you annoyed ? Yes, I do.
8109. You are friendly with Mr. Maguire, I suppose ? Yes ; on one occasion he took me by the arm and
wanted me to go into one of the Chinese places to have a drink with him. That was during the Chinese
new year.
8110. And you were not flurried on the occasion to which I allude ? No ; I have always looked upon
Mr. Andy Kelly as a gentleman, and Mr. Maguire and I have always been the best of friends. I have
had the photographs of my family taken at his jjlace. 1 dare say I said to him, " It is very hard that
they should make*these charges against the police, but that is all I did say.
8111. Was Carson with you on that occasion ? No.
8112. Just think over it — I fancy he was ? No ; he was not with us. I am quite certain of that.
8113. Did not Carson say, " I wish somebody would mention my name. I would bring a Supreme Court
action against him for £10,000, and if I could not get the money 1 would take it out of his body" ? No ;
I am positive that he was not there.
8114. Well, it is down in the evidence ? If Mr. Maguire said that he is telling a deliberate falsehood,
because Carson was not with us on that occasion. He was some distance down the street ; I remember that
distinctly, because Mr. Kelly was going up Church Hill, opposite Allt's place, and I walked across the
street and shook hands with him and Mr. Maguire. I have, therefore,- no hesitation in saying that Carson
was not present when the conversation occurred.
8115. So that if anybody has said that Carson was there, and said that he wished somebody would make
a charge about him, and he would take a Supreme Court action against him for £10,000, and if he could
not get it he would take it out of his body, it is not true ? No ; not at all. Carson may have said that
upon some other occasion, but he did not say it then, and he did not say it in my hearing at any time.
There is no doubt he was very much annoyed, about the charges against the police.
8116. Did you, or Senior-constable Carson, ever ask Mr. Maguire at his own door where you could get
gold watches ? No ; I do not recollect it. When the matter came out in the papers we both looked upon
Mr. Maguire as a friend, having known him so long, and we used to chaff our friends about gold chains
and watches, so that it is possible that we may have said something of that kind, but there was nothing
offensive about it. If we did ask the question it was only by way of a joke.
8117. I suppose that after the deputation to the Colonial Secretary there were many jokes cracked about
■diamond rings? Yes ; dozens of people used to stick me up in the street and say, " What about your
diamond rings. I suppose you have got dozens to sell" ?
8118. Have you ever met Mr. T. M. Davis, M.P. ? Yes ; I have known him for a number of years, but
I have never spoken to him since he has been a Member of Parliament.
8119. Have you ever had a drink with him in Montgomery's hotel ? Never ; I had a drink with him in
Buchanan's hotel. That was some few days before the election, but since then I have never spoken to him.
8120. Were you wearing the diamond ring" on that occasion ? Yes ; I always wear it.
8121. And you have never attempted in any way to disguise it ? No.
8122. You have never left it off on a single day since the Commission was started, or since the deputation
waited upon Sir Henry Parkes ? No ; not once. I never leave it off ; I always wear it.
8123. Have you ever met with a person who told you that Mr. Atwill had received a present from a
Chinaman in Lower George-street ? No ; I never have.
8124. From your knowledge of Mr. Atwill, do you think that he is a man likely to accept a present of
any kind from persons he was looking after in his official capacity as a member of the police force ? I am
positive that he would do no such thing. There is not a straighter man in the New South Wales police
force, and I should not like to be the man who had received 6d. in property if he found it out.
If he' were a man to be guilty of anything of that sort he would never forget it. He is a very particular
man in that respect.
8125. Your wages stand you in about £3 7s. Gd. a week ? les.
8126. And in addition to that you have a farm in the country ? Yes ; I have property in the country-
cattle and horses, and a farm.
8127. And you have had that for many years past ? Yes ; and at present it is in the charge of my father
and brothers. It is on the Clyde River, near Ulladulla. ,.
8128. And you reap an income from that in addition to what you get from the police?. 'Yes, in good,
seasons I get a, little from it. Sometimes I, get, something out of it, and sometimes I do not. 8129-.
208 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE,
Sen.-con«table 8129. At all events what money you have in the bank has always been received in an honest straight-
Beadman. forward way ? Tes, just so.
oo'TTl'"^. 8130. And vou have never received a present from any Chinaman in Lower George-street ? No, nor
Z.\ Oct., 1891. e A. r r\ j.
' from any other person in Lower George-street.
8131. You have accounted for all the jewellery you wear, and you do not own any other ? No.
8L32. You never received a present of jewellery from any Chinese resident of the Colony ? I never did.
8133. And the statement made by the deputation to the Colonial Secretary was false so far as you were
concerned ? So far as I am concerned it was false. Mr. Maguire said to me on one occasion, " 1 know
a certain sergeant who used to receive money from the Chinese," and I said to him " Why do you not name
him. It is very unfair to the rest of the force to make a statement of that kind without saying whom you
allude to."
8134. When was it that Mr. Maguire said that — since the deputation waited upon the Colonial Secretary?
Yes, and he said, " There is another man got a diamond ring and gold watch," and I said, '' "Well for the
honor of the other members of the police force you should say who it is." He then said, " Well, Sergeant
Dawson is the man" ; and I have heard on several occasions since, that he is the man they refer to, and
not myself.
8135. But you are aware, of course, that Sergeant Dawson received a present of a gold watch, and that it
was made in the most public manner by the Chinese residents of Lower George-street, upoa his retirement
from the force ? Well, I never saw the watch, but I heard that it was presented to him by Mr. Quong
Tart.
8136. If any one has told the Commission that you and Senior-constable Carson are always loafing about
the Chinese quarters in Lower George-street, would they have stated what was correct ? No, they would
not. We often have to go to the Chinese places.
8137. But you are simply about there when duty calls you ? Yes, we have instructions from Inspector
Atwill to keep a sharp look-out upon them. You may have seen stories in the papers about young girls
and boys going in there and smoking opium, and Mr. Atwill has said to me, " You and your mate go in
there and watch them closely, and if you see any small boys or young girls going in bring them to the
station," and of course, as plain clothes constables, we have to mis up with all sorts.
8138. So that, as a matter of fact, you are often in the company of questionable characters for the sake of
getting information out of them ? Yes.
S139. Are your brother constables all good honorable men ? Yes ; we have one or two who drink a
little, bat they are good men in the prosecution of their duty, otherwise they would not remain
a month under Mr. Atwill. Three or four men have been dismissed during the last month or two.
8140. Would it not be necessary, in order to make bribery effectual, that all the men in the district should
be bribed from the Sub-Inspector downwards ? I think not.
8141. Who have most to do with the Chinese in Lower George-street and of the city ? Well the uniform
men do not have a great deal to do with them. The plain clothes men have most to do with them, and I
think if anybody would be bribed it would be the plain clothes men.
8142. How many plain clothes men are there ? Pour — Sergeant Higgins, Senior-constable Adair, Senior
Constable Carson and myself.
8143. And if there was any bribery attempted you think it would be necessary, in order to make it
effectual, to bribe the four men you have named ? Well I think it would be more likely that that would
be the case than that the uniform men would be bribed.
8144. And Higgins, Adair, and Carson are three, men whose characters are aboye reproach? Yes;
Sergeant Higgins is one of the most honorable and right-minded men in the police force. I have known
him ever since I have been in the force.
8145. And what about Adair ? The same applies to him. He is a most honorable and upright man.
8146. Have they both property ? I do not think Adair has any, but Higgins has. I know how he got it
too. He is a very industrious man ; I have often seen him, after he has put in his time on duty, go home,
and putting a suit of working clothes on, work about his property repairing his home and doing odd jobs
of that kind.
8147. You have no doubt that any property that he has got has been obtained in a very honorable
manner — through his own industry in fact ? Quite so. He has a lot of property I know, but whether
he owns it all I cannot say.
8148. You have never had any complaints made against your character ? No, I have never been fined a
shilling since joining the police, nor have I received a single reprimand.
8149. And you have had %\ years service ? Yes.
8150. And during the time you were in Balmain you conducted yourself in such a manner as to receive a
presentation at the hands of the Mayor and aldermen upon your transference to Sydney ? Yes.
8151. Mr. Abigail.] You have been in the Lower George-street district for three or four years, I under-
stand ? Yes.
8152. Then you have a very intimate knowledge of what transpires there in connection with these Chinese
gambling-places ? Yes.
8153. Gambling has increased there very much during the last four years, has it not ? No. A portion
of that time these great strikes were on, and some of the places were untenanted.
8154. ..The strikes, of course, destroyed the means of gambling? Yes.
8155. As a result of your observations, do you believe that the Chinese gambling-dens in Lower George-
street are a curse to the men, women, and children of that neighbourhood ? No doubt it is injurious tp
the community that has in its midst these places in which Europeans play. Sometimes I have heard that
they say they win a lot of money, and I dare say they do. There are not always as many gambling as
anybody passing along the street might imagine. There will often be only three or four people playing
fan-tan, but a great number buying lottery-tickets. - A lot of people seeing them go into the shop would
suppose they were going in to gamble,- but a great many of- them only go in for the lotteries. I have seen
men go in and come out again with £30 or £40.
8156. Had you anything to do with the raid at Moy Ping's ? Yes ; it was Carson and I who got the
crow-bars.
8157. Did you go into any of the shops the day before and say that you were going to make the raid ?
No; we did riot. - ■ ■ ■ ;;o -L ...-.■.. .,- I, '.,.
'8158.
CHINESE OAMBHNG COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 267
8158. Did you go into any of the shops the morning of the day that the raid was made and ask for crow- Seri.-cotistable
bars, saying that you were going to make a raid ? No, we did 'not. Mr. Atwill said that we were to be Beadman.
very careful as to how we got the implements to break into the place, least anyone should get wind of it. no'TTT'Ttrt
Carson went to the Water Police Court where they were taking up the pipes and borrowed a crow-bar °cfc-' 189 *
from there, and I went to Poster Bros., the pawn-shop, and got a very strong steel one and put it under
my macintosh, so it would be quite impossible for anyone to see it.
8159. Mr. MoKillop.] Would that be the night that 'the raid was made? Yes.
8160. President.'] But, as a matter of fact, a great many people were at Moy Ping's at tbe time the raid
was made ? Tes.
8161. Well that would go to show that they did not know that a raid was going to be made, would it not ?
Tes. We had men watching for four or five nights previously ; and on this particular occasion Mr. Atwill
told off a man to give us the office when there were a great many people inside, and told the others that upon
getting the word they were to rush in. As soon as we saw the man come out and give us the tip, Mr.
Atwill, who was waiting for it, said, " Now come on," and we made a rush with the crow-bars and broke
in the door.
8162. Mr. Abigail.] Have you ever been afraid of performing your duty because of the owners of some
of this property being Members of the Legislative Council ? No ; never. I believe that the owners of
this property would give the police as much assistance as anybody.
8163. Tou complain that you cannot enter these places without a warrant ? Yes.
8164. Then what would you suggest; — would you give the police unlimited power to go in whenever they
thought fit, as long as they were known gambling-houses that they went into ? Yes ; I think it would be
better than the present arrangement.
8165. Have you seen much immorality amongst the Chinese in Lower George-street ? No ; I have hot.
There are cook-shops down there, and I have sometimes seen women of the lowest class go into them. I have
followed them in to see what they went there for, and have seen them buy a basin of soup, and take it
out and go away.
8166. Are the sanitary arrangements of these places good ? Yes ; we have been all through them, and I
have never seen anything that would be injurious to any person. They keep them all clean. Mr.
Seymour's men are always down there.
8167. You read all the statements made by the deputation? Yes.
8168. And you know of nothing to justify what was said to the Colonial Secretary with regard to the
bribery of the police ? Nothing whatever.
8169. Mr. Quong Tart.] Which is the principal game, fan-tan or pak-ah-pu ? Well, pak-ah-pu is the
principal game. ' More play in that than fan-tan.
8170. Which of these games is the worst ? Oh, I think fan-tan is the worst. Pak-ah-pu is a game of
chance. I think it is fair enough.
8171. Do you not think that pak-ah-pu is the worst, inasmuch as little children can go in the gambling-
shops and play it ? I do not think so. I think that fan-tan is the worst. If you go in and play pak-ah-pu
for a sixpenny ticket you may get £30 or £40 for it, whereas if you play fan-tan you mighf lose £20 or
£30 in five minutes.
8172. Do many Europeans play pak-ah-pu ? Yes ; great numbers do.
8173. Who play most, Europeans or Chinese ? Oh, great numbers of Europeans play.
8174. Have either Europeans or Chinese residents of Lower George-street ever complained to you of the
gambling evil down there ? No ; not before the Anti-Chinese Gambling League was formed.
8175. Since then have they ? Oh, yes ; several persons have since.
8176. And do you know of any Chinese informer ? I do not at present. There was a man named
Lee Wood at one time. I believe he used to go to the police and tell them about his fellow-countrymen
gambling, because they would not give him any- mone3r.
8177. Do you think that that class of men inform for the good of the community, or to serve their private
ends ? Oh, I think it is to serve their own ends.
8178. What do they do for their living; — what did Lee Wood do? He used to go about from one
Chinese place to another asking for money, and if they would not give it to him he would threaten them
with all sorts of things.
8179. Do you know Eobert Lee Kum. He is, or was, a member of the Salvation Army, I believe ? I
do not know him, but I have heard that he was just such another man as I have described.
8180. What district is he in ? I do not know. He does not come down to our end of the town very
often.
8181. What do you think of him, from what you have heard ? I do not think he is much good.
8182. Did you ever hear that he laid an information to the Inspector-General? No; I never heard
that.
8183. Do you know any other Chinese informer ;— do you know Long Pen ? No ; I cannot say that I
know that man. .
8183J. He is living on the Waterloo and Botany side in Wexford-street, now ? IN o, I do not know that maii.
8184. Are there many respectable Chinese merchants down in your quarter ? Yes ; a good number of
them. In fact I know nearly all the merchants down there.
8185. And how do they keep their places ? Pirst class.
8186. Will you name a few of the best ? Sun Kum Tiy, Sun Hing Jang, On Chong, Ung Quoy (of the
firm of Tin War), Sam War, On Yeck and Lee— all those are highly respectable Chinese merchants.
8187. What sort of a character does On Yeck and Lee bear ? A good character.
8188. None better ? No better in the country. In fact we look upon him as one of the best China-,
men in the country. .
8189. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you think Ung Quoy is connected with any of these gambling-places ?
No, I do not think so. He i's too respectable for. that.
8190. Mr. Quong Tart.] You know Sam War ? Yes.
8191. You do not think he is connected with any gambling-places ? No, I do not. I am sure he is not. _
8192 You do not think that he is connected with any of the lottery places ? No ; I do not think so'.
8193. How long has he been in business in Sydney ? When first I came here he was carrying on business
at the corner of a little lane off Lower George-street.
8194. What was the name of the firm then ? I do not know. It has a different name now.
8195,
90S CHINESE OAMBirVG- COM\IISSIO.\ — MINUTES OF EVIDEN'OE.
Sen..constsble 8193. How long has he been in his present place? Two and a half years.
Beadman. $196. j/,.. McKillop.] Were ex-Constable Quealy and Mr. Atwill on very good terms previously to
2'frTr^iRqi Quealv's dismissal from the force ? Well there is no doubt that it was through Mr. Atwill that he was
' dismissed, simply because he got drunk. He was a very good man for doing his duty, and Mr. Atwill
spoke to him on two or three occasions, but at last he got that way that he used to drink and was reduced,
and when he got drunk again Mr. Atwill had to report him — it was his duty to do so — and I do not know
what kind of friends they wrere then.
8197. AVho makes the arrangements in connection with the raids ? Mr. Atwill.
8198. Have any of you subordinate officers the power of making raids ? No.
8199. The sub-inspector in charge of the district is the responsible party ? Yes.
8200. Have you had any conversation with any person who has given evidence before the Commission ?
Relating to the evidence that they gave ?
8201. Tes ? No ; none whatever.
8202. Have you had any conversation with any of the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ?
With reference to what ?
8203. With reference to any of the charges that have been made against the police ? Tes. I have spoken
to members of the League on several occasions, when I have asked them if they know of any person who
has received a bribe, to say who he is, so that the rest of the men may not be injuriously treated. Of
course there may be a black sheep in every fold. They have replied that they do not know any individual
men who had received bribes, but they have a suspicion that it is done.
8204. Have you noticed that since you have been down in that district the passenger traffic has fallen
off — that people who used to go down Lower George-street to the Manly and North Shore boats at the
Circular Quay, now g° down Pitt-street to avoid passing the Chinese dens ? I do not think that the foot
traffic has fallen off in the slightest degree. I have noticed that business has fallen off in many parts of
the town, but I think that it has been entirely owing to the heavy strikes we have had. They are the
ruination of the town.
8205. Do the Chinamen insult women as they pass ? No ; they are most harmless people. They never
insult anybody.
8206. Do you know that the Chinese on the Rocks procure girls from Waterloo, Woolloomooloo, and
other places ? I was never aware of it, and I go there every night, as the other plain-clothes constables
do. There is one house — I think it is in Hanson's buildings — where there are a number of women of the
very lowest type, and I think the Chinese go with them sometimes.
8207. And you are positive that a large number of girls are not brought from these places by the Chinese
for immoral purposes ? Tes ; I am quite certain of it. In fact I have been called in by the Chinese to
put girls out when they have come in to the gambling-places under the influence of drink.
8208. Do you not think that if the police were to take drastic measures in a large number of the European
touts who frequent these dens it would tend to check the evil ? I do not know. I never saw any touts
about the place.
8209. Then if any one has given evidence to the effect that there is a ]arge number of young men of the
larrikin element acting as touts for the Chinese gamblers it would be false ? Tes ; at all events I am not
aware of it.
8210. Tou are not aware that larrikins are posted up and down the street so as to give the Chinese notice
when the police are seen coming out of the office ? It may be done, but I am not aware of it. It may be
that they arrange like the publicans do, to have the tip given them when the police are about.
5211. Do you know Henry Davies, of Dawes' Point ? Tes.
5212. Does he conduct his house in a very decent manner ? Tes. I think on the whole he does ; lie has
been caught once or twice selling at illegal hours.
5213. Do you know Mr. Buchanan? Tes.
8214. Is he a respectable publican ? Tes; a very respectable publican.
8215. Has he ever committed an offence against the Act? No ; not to my knowledge, at all events.
8216. Do you know any members of the Anti-Chiuese Gambling League — Mr. Armstrong, for instance ?
Tes. '
8217. Has he always borne a good character ? Tes, ever since I have been down there.
8218. Did you know Mr. Kelly ? Tes ; I have spoken to him once or twice.
8219. Do you know Mr. Dawson ? Tes.
8220. Is he a man of good character ? Tes, I think so ; I do not know anything against him. In fact I
do not know anything against any member of the League.
8221. Mr. Hawthorne.] Who is the high priest of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Well, as soon
as the new Parliament came in they seemed to take up the running directly. I do not know who was the
principal instigator, but I heard it mooted before the Parliament were returned ■ that the Chinese would
not be allowed to remain very long in Lower George-street.
8222. Mr. McKillop.'] Do you know the Laws' ? Tes, very well.
8223. They are two very respectable young fellows, are they not? Tes, very decent young fellows. I
know them personally.
8224. And you have stated that you found Mr. Atwill a very respectable, upright, and straight-dealing
officer ? Tes ; I know that he is.
8225. And if anybody had stated that they would not care to serve under him it would be very strange ?
Tes ; if he found any man taking 6d. from anybody I am quite sure that he would not remain two hours
in the force.
8226. Has anybody shown you any of the evidence taken before the Commission ? No ; I have not seen
any of it.
8227. Mr. Quong Tart.] Tou say that you have been in several raids in your time ? Tes ; I think three,
Mr. Quong Tart.
8228. How did you get the informations ? I think the first raid we made was at Sun Sam Kee's place.
We used to see people coming out of the shop, and we tried to get in at the door several times but failed,
so Mr. Atwill said that the best thing we could do was to try again in a few nights' time, and on that
occasion come down through the sky-light. When the time came we broke the sky-light, and jumped down
upon the table, a distance of about 10 feet, knocking everything over.
8229. Did you get information in the case of the other raids in a similar way ? Tes. 8230.
CIirXESE GAMBlCSG COilMISSIOX — M1XUTES Of EVIDEXt'K. 209
8230. Did you ever get any information from any Chinese informers ? No. Sen.-consteble
8231. You acted upon your own information ? Yes. Mr. Atwill and several of us went up on a number J!\™1'
of occasions, and tried to get in but seeing that there was no chance of doing it we abandoned the idea. 230otl891
In fact there has always been thirteen or fourteen warrants lying in the office ever since I have been in ''
the district.
8232. Mr. McKillop.] Do you think that if these strong doors 'and intricate passages were^swept away
the police would have any difficulty in getting in then ? Quite so. There would be no difficulty then.
8233. Do you remember the Commission going there some few weeks back — to Sun Sam Kee's ? Yes ;
I recollect. I think I was away on leave at the time.
8234. Had you heard anything about the intended visit of the Commission before^they got there ?INo;
I only heard of it afterwards. I think I remember Mr. Atwill speaking to me about it.
8235. The next day ? Yes ; telling me that the Commission had been there.
8236. Mr. Abigail!] Have you ever given the Chinese any warning not to play because of the Commis-
sion ? No.
8237. Mr. Quong Tart.] Is there much gambling carried on now ? No ; very little. In fact we have
been through the places every night for the last three weeks, and the tables are all covered up.
8238. Mr. Abigail.] Do you not think that the mere finding of gambling implements in these places
should be sufficient evidence to secure conviction ? I think not.
8239. You think that they should be caught red-handed at the game ? Yes ; I think so. I think that
you would have to go in and find them playing, with the money on the table. Ifjjyou only found the
coins on the table I do not think that you could get a conviction.
8240. Mr. McKillop.] I want you to be quite clear in the answer you give upon this point, because I
asked you the question a little while ago, aud understood you to concur that it should be sufficient for a
policeman to find the gambling implements in any of these places.
8241. President.] To make the thing perfectly clear, whilst at present it is necessary to catch the
gamblers in the act of playing, and that is a very difficult matter, I understand that you would suggest
an alteration in the law by which the mere possession of gambling implements would be evidence against
the proprietors of the house sufficient to secure their conviction ? Yes.
8242. I do not wish to ask you any further questions, but I would like to say this — that your evidence
has been exceedingly satisfactory. So far as you have been the subject of serious charges you have
answered them, I personally consider, quite satisfactorily. Now I have only to ask you to be good
enough not to repeat any of the evidence you have given to the Commission|;to any of j'your fellow-
constables. We do not wish them to be prepared in any way for the questions we may put to them.
MONDAY, 26 OCTOBER, 1891.
The Mayor op Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P, Vice-Pbesidest.
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TART, Esq,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Senior-constable W. H. Carson called and examined : —
8243. Mr. Abigail.] You are a member of the police force, Mr. Carson? Yes ;~I am a plain-clothes Sen.-con3table
officer, and hold the rank of senior-constable. Carson.
8244. How long have you been in the force ? Five years and two months. __ _ t — -^-^~\
8245. During that time in what part of the city have you chiefly been on duty P^Principally^in the 26 0ct-> 1891-
northern part of the city — Lower George-street.
N'J4tf. Then you have an intimate knowledge of the quarter where the Chinese [gambling-houses are
situated ? I have a very good knowledge of all that part of the city.
8247. You have visited 'these Chinese houses, I suppose— have you not? Yes ;~ I have visited them
frequently, both by day and night.
8248. That is, in the execution of your duty ? Yes.
8249. How have you obtained admission to those places? I have simply gone in of my own accord, with
Senior-constable Beadman.
8250. You are both plain-clothes men ? Yes.
8251. Have you visited a number of the houses in that locality? Yes ; a number of them.
8252. "What did you observe in those places — tell me what class of people you found there ? In those
shops where they run the pak-ah-pu tickets there are generally a mixed class offpeople, but mostly con-
fined to the lower order.
8253. Europeans and Chinamen ? Yes. There are four or five of these shops, I think— there might be
six ; but I know there are four or five that the Europeans frequent.
8254. Those places are kept for the issue of lottery-tickets ? Yes.
8255. Have you seen them playing fan-tan there ? I have never seen them playing fan-tan in any of
those places I have just referred to. I have seen them play fan-tan in the places confined solely to the
CliinGSG
8256. Do you mean to say that Europeans are not to be found gambling in'any of these places ? No."
8257. How is that ;— do you not know that these Chinese places are frequented by large numbers of
Europeans ? Certainly not in large numbers — I can say that. There may be some Europeans in from
time to time.
8258. But we have had evidence here to the effect that hundreds of Europeans are continually m these
places in Lower George-street, for the purpose of gambling by the fan-tan process? I do not think
that is at all likely. I think the largest number of Europeans ever known to be in a fan-tan shop there was
on the occasion of the last raid, when we found forty or fifty there.
8259. That was in Moy Ping's ? Yes.
8260. During your five years' experience in that quarter of the city have. you noticed any very great,
increase in the number of Chinese places in Lower George-street ? Decidedly not, sir ; I have Doticeda
decrease. 826L
272—2 D
210
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Sen^-constable 8261. During the last five years ? Yes ; more particularly during the last two years. I was in the
Larson^ office at ^0 4 stati0n for three years, when I joined Senior-constable Beadman in plain-clothes.
260ctl891 8"62' Y°U liaV? ^een on.actiTe duty for tlie last two years ? Tcs.
'' i- 82U3. And during that time you have been in constant attendance, for one purpose or another, on these •
Chinese places ? Yes. Sometimes of course we would be after suspected criminals ; and other times
we would go in consequence of complaints being made, such as occurred two or three years ago, if you
remember.
S2G4. Complaints made by shopkeepers ? Not by shopkeepers of the locality particularly ; but com-
plaints generally about that side of the city, as to females of tender age being induced to go there for
immoral purposes, and so forth ; and our duties were for a time almost confined to investigating such
matters.
8265. You say you have never visited one of these places and found Europeans as well as Chinese playing
fan-tan ? I never saw any Europeans playing fan-tan yet.
8266. You have seen the Chinamen playing fan-tan ? Yes, I have seen them playing amongst themselves
in the afternoon sometimes.
8267. What was the result of your inspection, in reference to the allegations or complaints about women
visiting these places for immoral purposes ; were you able to sustain, these complaints by what you saw ?
No ; I never saw any women in these places, with the exception of one cook-shop, when I have seen
women go for soup iu the night-time, and carry it away in jugs.
8268. Were you connected with the party who made the raid upon Moy Ping's place recently ? Yes, I
was one of the men who made the raid that night.
8269. You found a number of Europeans there on that occasion ? Yes, most of them were Europeans.
8270. And many of them, I understand, were persons of respectable positions ? Well I do not think so.
Most of them were of the labouring class, or lower order ; a couple of them I believe gave their occupations
as "clerks."
8271. The others were mostly labouring men? Yes, or seafaring men.
8272. Then you think the class of persons visiting these places may be generally described as working
men and sailors ? All classes of the lower orders I should say.
8273. Are you on intimate terms with any of the Chinese down there — that is, do you know them well ?
Yes ; I know them well.
8274. Have you often had a drink — taken refreshments with any of them ? Not often. I have had a
drink on two or three occasions, with some of them.
8275. Now can you tell us the names of some of the Chinese keeping these places, that you know of down
there ? There is Moy Ping, the man whose place we made the raid on ; and there is Sam Kee, and there
is another man who is mixed up in it — " Canary" they call him.
8276. Do you know Doung Lee's, 164, Lower George-street ? Yes, I know that place.
8277. Do you know that it is a noted Chinese gambling-house, frequented by both Europeans and Chinese
No.
8278. You do not know that ? No ; I am not aware of that.
8279. Do you mean to say you do not know that gambling is carried on at all hours there, even up to the
present time ? No, I am not aware of it.
8280. Do you know Pun Num's ? No.
8281. It is also a gambling-house, pure and simple— the gambling being carried on in the back, with the
lottery in front? I do not know it particularly. But I know all the Chinese places there.
8282. Nos. 178 and 180? I know the two numbers.
8283. And so you think gambling has decreased in the neighbourhood ? I am sure of it.
S2S4. Then if the business people down there state that the gambling has increased to an alarming extent
in Lower George-street, you would say that is incorrect ? It is quite incorrect I believe,
S285. Have you ever been presented with anything as a recognition of the efficiency with which you have
discharged your duty on that beat? Never.
8286. Not by Chinese or any other persons ? No, sir. The only presents I ever got were rewards for the
apprehension of prisoners.
8287. You never received a present of a gold watch, for example ? I never possessed one in my life.
8288. Or a ring ? No ; the only ring I have is suspended from my chain.
8289. Are you married ? Yes ; I was married twelve months ago.
8290. Have you any family ? One child.
8291. Do you own any property ? I have a house, on the Metropolitan Eoad, Enmore,
8292. How long have you had that ? Since last January. I purchased it on terms.
8293. I was going to ask you that. You must understand that these questions are put to you in the dis-
charge of our duty, and not in any offensive way ? I understand you, sir.
829-1. Then how did you become possessed of this property in Enmore ? I purchased it from another
party who had mortgaged it to the Metropolitan Building Society — £100 down and so much per week.
There is a tenant in it now paying 15s. a week.
8295. You are paying it off now ? Yes, the tenant is paying it off.
8296. Is that the only property you have ? Yes.
8297. _ You remember a deputation having waited upon the Premier in reference to the Chinese gambling
question ? I remember it quite well.
8298. You read the press reports of the statements made by one of the members of that deputation ?
I did.
8299. Where he charged the police with receiving bribes for allowing the Chinese gambling-houses to
carry on their business without interference ? Yes, I remember reading it quite well.
8300. Now, you are on your oath, sworn to speak the truth; — do you know anything that will sustain
that charge ? I know nothing whatever that would sustain a charge of that character against the police.
8301. Have you never heard of any constables receiving presents of any kind from these people? Since
the deputation was formed I have heard it talked about at the street corners, and people have chaffed us
about diamond rings and so forth. I have heard statements made about the police, but no names
mentioned.
8302. Yo know nothing of your own knowledge to justify or sustain such charges ? I do not know any«
thing whatever of the kind, neither do I believe it. 8303.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EYIDENCE. 211
8303. You know all of these Chinese dens, I presume ? Yes, I know them very well. Sen.-constable
8304. Look at these photographs ;— you will notice some placards bearing Chinese character stuck up out- Carson,
side the houses thus represented ? Yes. <-— — N-~ -»
8305. You have seen those I suppose on the fronts of these places in Lower George-street? Yes. 26 ^^ 1891'
8306. Do you know what those white paper notices mean ? No, but I have heard of it lately.
8307. You have been three years on that beat and never heard of it before ? "Well, I never took any
interest in the thing. I have seen such notices stuck up on a number of houses, some of them cook-shops.
8308. Do you not think it is the duty of constables to make themselves acquainted with notices put outside
reputed gambling-shops, particularly when they are in a foreign language ? It did not occur to me in
that light.
8309. Do you know that the notices in question informed the public that fan-tan is carried on in those
places day and night ? I cannot swear to it.
8310. Well that is the literal translation of the notice. Now, suppose that I put up a notice in English
outside a shop that gambling was carried on there day and night, do you think I would be allowed to go on
without interference from the police ? I am pretty sure you would be interfered with if you put the
notice in English ; but, as to these particular notices I do not undertand the Chinese characters, and I do
not think any of the police do.
8311. The police have a Chinese interpreter at their command, have they not ? Yes.
8312. Do you not think it would have been well to apply to him for an interpretation of these notices ?
It never struck me that there was anything in it.
8313. But if you do not inquire you cannot know ; notices might be put up that women were kept there
for immoral purposes ? That could not well be, for we have visited the places frequently, and I am quite
sure there are no women in them kept for immoral purposes.
8314. Do you remember the night when the Commission visited Lower George-street ? Yes.
8315. They visited the place kept by Sun Sam Kee ? Yes.
8316. You know that place ? Yes, I know it well.
8317. That is reckoned to be one of the worst of the gambling-houses, is it not ? Yes. That is one of the
places frequented by Europeans.
8318. Do you know that when we visited that place on that occasion we saw Europeans there ? Yes ; I
heard so.
8319. And they made their way out before we could get proper admission ? Yes ; I heard that, too.
8320. How many raids have been made during your term of service ? Two or three — I cannot exactly
remember.
8321. And were they successful in each case? I think so; though I only took part in one myself
actually.
8322. Do you think that the gambling was not carried on in the intervals between those raids — say there
were fifteen to eighteen months between each raid ? I am sure it was carried on to a certain extent.
8323. And what did the police do to stop it ? Well you see, besides the raids that were actually made,
there were raids in contemplation, and I am sure there are warrants in existence now, lying in No. 4
station, ready to be executed.
8324. You can only proceed by warrant? Yes; whenever a raid is contemplated, Mr. Atwill gets the
warrants out at the Water Police Court. Then you must have some one — a policeman disguised or
other person unknown to be connected with the force in any way — to go in and prove that the game is
played, and that money passes, and identify the banker and croupier. It is often impossible to get any
one outside the force to undertake this duty.
8325. Do not some of the Chinese act as informers on occasions of that kind ? No.
8326. Have you never heard of a Chinaman visiting the police authorities — the Inspector-General and
others, and complaining of gambling being carried on in these Chinese houses ? I have heard of one —
Lee War, I think. He used to try and levy blackmail upon them. He would go to these gambling-
houses and try to extort money from the owners, and if they would not " dub up" he would go to the
police station and inform upon them.
8327. Have you ever. heard of any other Chinaman making complaint against the gamblers ? No.
8328. You never heard of a Chinaman going to the Inspector- General's office, and being hunted out
because he made complaints about these things ? Never.
8329. Do you know Senior-sergeant Higgins ? Yes; well.
8330. Is he a good officer ? Yes ; a thoroughly good, reliable officer. I have known him since I joined
the police force.
8331. He is reputed to be well off, is he not ? He owns some houses, I believe.
8332. Do you know how he acquired his property? I do not know; but I suppose he got them through
his own industry. He is a man of good character in every way.
8333. Have you heard of him winning money in sweeps or anything of that kmd ? No ; I never did.
He is a very strict kind of man.
8334. Did you ever hear of him receiving presents of any kind from the Chinese residents of Lower
George-street ? No ; I never heard of anything, of the kind.
8335. You say there has been a great reduction in the gambling in Lower George-street? Yes ; I am of
that opinion.
8336. And you know nothing whatever to justify the charge that the police are bribed to overlook the
gambling that is admittedly carried on down there ? No ; nothing whatever.
8337. You simply say that it has been carried on, and that two raids have been made in the course of
three years? Two or three — I am not positively sure which. But I know that during the past three
years it has decreased noticeably, at least since the Chinese Eestriction Act was passed. There are more
Chinese leaving the country than there are coming iu. The fan-tan gambling used to be almost confined
to the Chinese, and the late strikes had a great effect upon it.
8338. Is it not a fact that the shops kept by the Chinese down there have largely increased in number
during the last three years — that numbers of Chinese have taken shops to carry on the gambling business
during that time •— are there not a greater number now, in fact, than there were three years ago ? I
cannot swear that. I do not think so. Some of the houses there are idle now.
8-339; How often are you up and down the street in the course of your duty ? Several times day and
night
212 CHINESE GAMELIMr COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sen.-coDstable night when I am on duty. As I have said, there are some houses there idle now, and there was a terrace
Carson. 0j: houge3 ^le for a considerable time — Beale's Buildings, they call them.
o60ct"""l89I 8340. You have not seen women or young girls visiting these places ? No.
' 8311. Have you not seen women go into the Chinese shops to buy lottery-tickets ? Never.
8342. What is the difficulty in the way of the police proceeding against these people for selling lottery-
tickets ? I cannot define it. But it is an understood thing that it is impossible to get a conviction in
the case of lottery-tickets.
8343. And in the case of fan-tan gambling, the main obstacle consists in your not being able to gain
admission to these places ? Tes.
8344. Tou have to get a warrant, in the first instance, and then the Chinese are so clever they shut you
out ? Tes ; they have the place thoroughly barricaded.
8345. If you have good reason to believe that gambling is going on inside, have you not power, without a
warrant, to break open the door and get into these places ? No, sir, not without a warrant. If I broke
into a place without a warrant, and could not sustain a conviction, I should hear of it afterwards.
8346. Then any amendment of the law, to be effective, would have to give the police increased power to
enter if they had reason to believe anything wrong was going on inside — that is, without a warrant ; — is
that your opinion ? Yes.
8347. Have you any knowledge of the Chinese quarters in other parts of the city ? I have been through
places about Goulburn-street and Bathurst-street, and other places, in pursuit of offenders and persons
described as " wanted."
8348. You immediately visit the Chinese quarters in search of supposed criminals, although they may be
Europeans ? Yes. We often go there to look for Europeans, and also for Chinese when they are wanted.
8349. In your visits to these places have you found the sanitary conditions good ? Yes.
8350. That is clean and nice ? Well, not scrupulously clean ; but they would compare favourably with
the same class of European habitations. I have never seen anything obnoxious on their premises.
8351. Have you ever known of any disturbances — quarrelling and fighting — in these places? I have
heard of two or three cases of ordinary broils, where drunken men go in and make a row. Sometimes
they go in and demand money from the Chinamen, or force themselves upon them, and then the China-
men would put them out by force ; and sometimes there might be a row in the street ; but very seldom.
8352. Has it seemed to you that Inspector Atwill is anxious to have your duties performed strictly in all
these matters ? Undoubtedly.
8353. Is he a strict officer ? Yes ; strict and conscientious.
8354. You never heard of him receiving presents of any kind ? No.
8355. Such as a piece of furniture, for instance ? I never heard of such a thing.
8356. Or a chest of tea ? No.
8357. Or a purse of twenty sovereigns ? No ; I do not think he would accept a present from what I
know of him. He is a strict disciplinarian, and very just.
8358. Did you ever hear, on your rounds, of any large sums of money being won or lost in these Chinese
gambling-dens ? I have heard of men losing money, and also winning on the lottery-tickets, and also at
fan-tan.
8359. Have you heard of labouring men losing all their weekly wages, and leaving their wives and
families to want ? No ; I have heard no complaints of that kind.
8360. You have had no complaints to that effect ? No ; not in all my experience in that district ; the
sergeant in charge of the station might be better able to give evidence as to that ; but it did not come
within my experience while I was on duty in the station.
8361. Have you not remarked a falling off iu the business in that part of Lower George-street, between
Circular Quay and Bridge-street during the last few years ? No ; I cannot say that I have.
8362. Have you not noticed that the people travelling by steamers to the Quay do not go that way, but
turn down Bridge-street instead, and reach Circular Quay by way of Pitt-street ? Some do. But 1 think
Pitt-street is more in a line with the steamboats than George-street.
8363. Have you heard anything about the insulting conduct of the Chinese towards respectable females
in that locality ? I have heard the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League complain — they
complained to me, some of them ; I forget who they were, but Mr. Maguire was one.
8364. Did Mr. Nock complain ? No ; not to me.
8365. Maguire did, you say ? Yes, about the Chinese insulting ladies passing to and fro ; but none of
the general public outside have complained ; in fact we have paid a lot of attention to the Chinese in that
respect, and have never heard any complaints.
8366. Have you noticed any falling off in the street traffic in that locality ? No ; I have not.
8367. Are there not a number of houses of bad repute kept by Chinese up Cumberland-street? I am not
aware of any being kept by the Chinese. There are a few Chinese up there who have women living with
them in the ordinary way. They may be married to them for all I know, to the contrary; but there are
no reputed bad houses there.
8368. Mr. Quong Tart.~] Can you say how many gambling-houses kept by Chinese there are in Lower
George-street ? I cannot say the exact number ; but I should say somewhere about twelve or fifteen, or
perhaps seventeen.
8369. How many of them are patronised by European gamblers ? About four or five, I think.
8370. What kind of game do they carry on ? Principally the lottery business — this pak-ah-pu.
8371. Do you understand anything at all about the game of fan-tan ? Yes ; I understand how it is plaved.
8372. Is it a fair game ? Ean-tan is simply a game of chance.
8373. And pak-ah-pu ? I do not understand it ; but I have heard men say it is fair.
8374. What is the least they can spend on a pak-ah-pu ticket ? I think it is 6d.
8375. Up to what amount can they win ? I cannot tell you exactly, but at 6d. or Is. I think they can
win up to £87, or something like that.
8376. Is it a fact that members of the police force continually pass these houses well-knowing that
gambling is carried on ? I do not know.
8377. We have evidence here on that point, and we want to know whether it is true or not ? Well,
there are houses iu which it is suspected that gambling is carried on ; but I do not think they will admit
you while they are playing fan-tan. -
8378.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 213
8378. Do you know of any member of the police force having accepted a bribe to refrain from interfering Seru-constable
with the gamblers ? No, I do not. Carson-
8379. And if any one has stated that such has been the case, do you believe it is untrue ? I do. 260ct"-1891
8380. Suppose we have had evidence to the effect that a bribe has been accepted by a member of the ''
police, do you say it is untrue ? I cannot swear it, of course, but I believe it is untrue from my knowledge
of the police down there.
8381. Can you say whether opium-smoking is carried on in these gambling-houses ? Yes ; it is used by
some of those who inhabit those places, but in the majority of the places I do not believe it is used.
8382. It is not used as a rule, you mean r Well, I can only speak as to a few of the houses, and I have not
paid particular attention to it.
8383. Now, how is it that they only make raids now and then on these houses, with long intervals between ?
In some instances Inspector Atwill has contemplated raids, and they have turned out a non-success. It
has been found impossible to get persons and fit them up properly so that they can go in and find the
gamblers at play. The last one was nearly a failure because we had two or three of the police for the
purpose, and they were objected to, being recognised.
8384. You think the gamblers are more clever than the police ? I consider they are, so far as preventing
the police from making raids upon them is concerned.
8385. Have you ever found any immorality as between the sexes carried on in these Chinese gambling-
houses ? I have not.
8386. Have you heard of any young women being decoyed by the Chinese to their houses ? I have
never heard of it.
8387. Do you remember any rioting or fighting taking place in connection with the gambling-shops in
Lower George-street a few years ago ? No.
8388. I refer to a row where a Chinaman was nearly killed with an iron bar ; — do you remember that case ?
I do not remember the particulars of any case. A row does occur occasionally, from time to time. I
never take particular notice of them. They are mostly public-house broils. A man may come into one
of these places very drunk, and kick up a row, and the Chinamen will eject him.
8389. Tou have heard of the gambling that is said to be carried on in the Chinese, quarters of Lower
George-street, Goulburn- street, "Wexford-street, and Campbell-street? Yes.
8390. Do you think it is true that so much gambling is carried on ? I do not think there is so much as
is represented.
839L. Can you suggest any means of putting down this evil ? I cannot throw out any suggestion — wiser
heads than mine might do so.
8392. But you can give your opinion ? "Well in my opinion the powers vested in the police at present
are not sufficient to enforce the law, because if you get a warrant to enter one of those places you must
then force your way in, for these places are generally barricaded, and you have to smash down doors and
barricades to get an entrance, and the delay enables them to make their escape.
8393. Then do you think, if you had the power to enter without a warrant, you would be able to stop
the gambling much quicker? I do, undoubtedly.
8394. Have you ever known any of the respectable Chinese merchants connected with these gambling-
shops ? No.
8395. Do you know anything of their opinion with regard to gambling ? The Chinese merchants in
general, I believe, are opposed to gambling.
8396. Do you not know of any other informer besides Lee War whom you have mentioned ? I heard of
another man whose name I do not know. I have heard him spoken of ; — he is living in Goulburn-street
somewhere now, I believe. He became a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League, and said he
represented twenty-five Chinese merchants.
8397. Was it Gouldtown ? Yes ; that is the name.
8398. Did you ever see him ? Yes ; once.
8399. Did you ever have any conversation with him ? Not to my recollection.
8400. Were you on duty in Lower George-street last Saturday night ? Yes.
8401. Did you and another constable accompany two or three gentlemen on a visit to the Chinese quarters
that night ? Yes.
8402. Did you find anything particular going on ? No. Mr. Fred. Leslie, the actor, was anxious to find
out how fan-tan was played, and Detective Cocking met me and Beadinan and asked us to show them
round. We went in and asked the Chinaman if they would show how the game was played, and they
did so.
8403. You did not actually find them in the act of playing ? No.
8404. What did those gentlemen think about it — did they express an opinion ? They seemed to think it
was a fair game.
8405. Whose place was it you entered ? I do not know the name of the house. A big fellow called
Fred lives there.
S406. Have you found those places much quieter since this Commission was started ? I cannot say that
the Commission has had any particular effect in that direction ; but I am sure the last raid we made has
had some effect.
8407. Do you think if you frequently made such raids the effect would be to stop the gambling there
altogether ? 1 cannot sav, because 'it might be a considerable time before we could succeed in making
a raid again. The warrants are in existence now, and Inspector Atwill is only biding his time to make
anotherraid. But it is a difficult matter, as I have told you.
8408. Do you know Goulburn-street well ? No; it is not in our division. Sometimes I take a run
through the houses there in search of offenders.
8409. Have you ever received any complaints of young women being decoyed from their homes by the
Chinese in your division ? No ; no complaints whatever of that kind.
84 LO. Mr. Kawthorne..~] Do you know Mr. Nock ? Yes.
8411. Have you had much intercourse with him ? Well, Mr. Nock and I used to be intimate friends at
one time.
8412. What time was that ? Up to the time the Commission was appointed. He took umbrage at
jBome remarks that were passed about a ring. It used to be a by.word there. One day Mr. Nock was
standing
214 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MIN0TES OF EVIDENCE.
Sen. -constable standing on the footpath, and I passed some remark upon this cameo ring, which I wear suspended from
Carson. my Watch-chain. Beadman, who was with me, said it was a fine ring, only it had not got a diamond in it.
2fffTrJisqi ^ heard afterwards that Mr. Nock complained about it.
L '' ' S413. How long have you had that ring ? A long time. It is an heirloom, and belonged to an uncle of
mine. That ring was all through the American war.
8414. You never received a ring as a present from any of the Chinese in Lower George-street ? No.
8415. Are you in the habit of frequenting the Chinese houses in Lower G-eorge-street ? Tes ; I visit
them occasionally.
8416. Have you ever smoked opium in any of these places ? Never in my life.
8117. Then if anyone has said that you were seen in one of these places, leaning over the counter smoking
opium, he would be saying what was untrue ? He would be committing deliberate perjury.
8418. Now listen to this : It has been stated in evidence here (Q. 178) that he " Baw Constable Beadman
and Constable.Carson leaning over the counter in a gambling-house in Queen's-place, and smoking opium."
You say that is deliberate perjury ? Yes ; deliberate perjury. I never smoked opium in my life, and
Beadman never did in my company.
[Note. — The evidence referred to (Q. 178) was subsequently corrected on revision, by the withdrawal
of the statement that the officers in question were seen " smoking opium."]
8419. Do you know Moy Ping's place ? Yes.
8420. Are you in the habit of going in and out of the inner department there ? No ; not in the back
part.
8421. Whenever you go into Moy Ping's and other Chinese places in Lower George-street, you go in
officially ? Yes.
8422. Have you been in the habit of receiving refreshments from the Chinese down there at any time ?
Not in the habit of doing so. I have in a few cases — from On Chong, a Chinese merchant, for instance,
and Sam Hing. Beadman is well acquainted with him — has known him for a considerable number of
years.
8423. Have you never taken refreshments with any other Chinamen ? Yes, on two or three occasions,
with Moy Ping.
8424. What was the object of going in with Moy Ping to take refreshments — was he the shouter ? He
shouted, and I think we returned the compliment. He has often given us information in connection with
parties who were wanted. I remember one occasion in particular, some months ago, when he put us on
the track of a man who had stolen a watch, and we arrested him. In fact he pointed out the man for us.
8425. In reality then, when you have gone into refreshment places with Moy Ping, or other gambling-
house keepers, it has not been for the purpose of receiving bribes, or currying favour with them, but merely
for the purpose of obtaining information to assist you in tracing and arresting suspected persons ? Yes ; in
fact, as plain-clothes officers we mix and drink with all classes of society. We should be a non-success if
we did not do so.
8426. You are practically detectives? Yes.
8427. So that you may very often be seen in the society of disreputable persons, and be apparently on
familiar terms with them, and in that way you are really showing diligence in your calling, inasmuch as
you are compelled to adopt that method of extracting information concerning the criminal classes which
you would not otherwise be enabled to obtain ? Yes, that is the case.
8428. Do you remember being in company with Beadman on one occasion when you met Mr. Nock, and
the latter said to Beadman, " I think it is a shame to see you in this place" — referring to the house in
Queen's-place ? No.
8429. Do you remember ever having been in company with Beadman when Mr. Nock made such a remark ?
No ; never in my life.
8430. I will read you the exact words (Q. 180) given in evidence here : " On the occasion to which I was
referring ... I went up to Beadman and said to him, " I think it is a shame to see you in this
place." He replied, " You cannot do anything, Mr. Nock." I said, " Why can't I ; and, for that matter,
why can you not ?" His answer was, " Most of these places are owned by Members of Parliament and
influential men, and they tell us that if we turn these people out we cannot get respectable persons to
replace them as tenants," I said, " I can quite believe that ; they cannot get decent tenants for their
premises under the circumstances, but that is no reason why you should not do your duty." Were you
present when any such conversation took place ? IS o, I never heard anything of the kind.
8431. If Mr. Nock has said that he has seen you and Constable Beadman pat Chinese gamblers on their
backs, and ask who won this hand, and who won that, would that be untrue also ? Undoubtedly it would.
8432. You are quite sure on that point? Quite sure.
8433. On no occasion did you ever pat a gambler on the back, and ask who won or lost the game ? Never
in my life ; or Beadman in my company.
8434. If it was also asserted, as in the case at question 182, that he had seen you " drinking and having
dinners with the boss gamblers," would that be true ? Not to my knowledge. We have been in with the
Chinamen once or twice having oysters, and on one occasion we had dinner in the Coffee Palace with
Sam Hing.
8435. With any other Chinamen ? No, except to take refreshments with Moy Ping.
8436. What kind of refreshments ? Drinks.
8437. Was that while you were on duty ? Yes.
8438. With any other Chinamen ? Mr. On Chong.
8439. Any others ? Not to my recollection ; but it is quite possible. I never contemplated that any
questions of this kind would arise ; but as I have said before we mix up with all classes in the course of
our duty to get knowledge and information.
8440. Have you ever been charged by any person, either you or Constable Beadman, with taking bribes
or accepting presents from the Chinese gamblers ? Never, sir.
8441. Has Mr. Nock charged you either directly or indirectly with having been the recipients of bribes
or presents ? Never in his life.
8442. Has he evSr talked to 'you seriously about the, to his mind, easy going style of the police in dealing
with the Chinese gamblers in Lower George-street ? I do not remember such a thing
S443. You do not remember any allegations' being made against the "police as to their method of dealing
with the Chinese gamblers ? NeverV
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2J.5
8444. Tou are quite sure ? Tes. Sen.-constable
8445. Do you think it is true that warning was given to the Chinese residents previous to a raid being Carson,
made upon them ? No. z^-a^-s
8416. You think it unlikely that any policeman, by instructions from Mr. Atwill or otherwise, went to 26 0ct'' 18^1,
one of the places down there and said that a raid was to be made that evening, and that they would
require the use of a crowbar ? "Well some time previous to the raid being made Mr. Atwill asked
Beadman and I to get some crowbars if possible.
8417. Where did you get them ? I accompanied Beadman to Foster's, and got one there.
8418. Did you say what it was for ? No ; Beadman said he wanted it to knock a hole in the yard for a
clothes-prop. We got another crowbar from the Water Police Station from the man engaged in some
sewerage work there.
8449. So that the statement of Mr. Nock, that many more arrests would have been made if the warning
had not been given, is to your mind incorrect ? Quite so. I think the fact of fifty men being found on
the premises at the time the raid was made was quite sufficient to show that no information leaked out
regarding it. >
8450. Have you seen any copy of the evidence taken before this Commission ? No.
8451. Tou have never had a look at it at any time ? No.
8452. Have you ever been offered anything at all in the shape of a present by any Chinese residents ?
No.
8453. Now I want you to be very particular in regard to your answer to this question : Do you remember
having, in company with Constable Beadmau. met Mr. Maguire (who has already given evidence before
this Commission) when he (Maguire) was walking down the street in company with Mr. Kelly, M.P. ?
I remember seeing Mr. Kelly with Mr. Maguire on one occasion, when he and Beadman had a conversation,
and I took a walk some little distance away while they were talking.
8454. Did you and Beadman have a conversation with him ? I did not join in the conversation at all.
I was standing some distance away. Mr. Kelly, and Maguire and Beadman, were standing at the
intersection of Church-hill and George-street.
8455. That is the corner of Charlotte-place and George-street, I suppose ? Tes.
8456. How came you to stand such a distance off — was it a conversation you were not expected to listen
to? Wei!, Beadman left me somewhat abruptly, and went to speak to them ; I do not know what he
wanted to say to them.
8457. Did you not play any part in what took place on that occasion, either directly or indirectly? I
am positively sure I did not join in the conversation while Mr. Kelly was present.
8458. ATill you swear that you did not say to Mr. Maguire that you wished someone would make a
charge against you ; or, to be more accurate, and giving your own words as conveyed to the Commission
by Mr. Kelly, do you remember having said that on this very occasion, when Mr. Maguire was in
company with Mr. A. Kelly, M.P. ? No ; I did not join in the conversation that day with Mr. Maguire.
I might have said something to that effect casually, afterwards, in passing down the street, but as to
making such a remark in conversation with Mr. Maguire, I certainly did not.
8459. Don't you think you must have been engaged in some conversation with them for Mr. Maguire to
connect you in this way with it? Certainly not while Mr. Kelly was present. I only spoke to him once
in my life.
8460. When was that ? I got an introduction to him some time ago, when he was returned to Parliament.
8161. Tou are quite sure you did not speak to him on this particular occasion ? Positively sure.
8462. Do you deny having made that statement to Maguire ? I am positively certain I never expressed
those words.
8163. Or that you would take it out of his pocket ? I am quite positive I never said a word like that, or
any thins; that could be construed into such a meaning. I do not think they are worth £10,000 if they
were all boxed up together — Mr. Maguire in particular. I do not think he has 10.000 shillings.
8464. Then you positively deny the truthfulness of the statement ? I positively deny it.
8465. And you swear that no such conversation took place ? 1 do.
8466. Or at any other time, supposing that a mistake has been made as to the exact time ? No ; I am
positively sure.
8467. Tou will swear positively that the day Constable Beadman met Mr. A. Kelly with Maguire you
had no conversation with any of them ? I may have spoken to Maguire, but I am positively sure I had
no conversation about the £10,000.
8468. Since you are not quite sure whether you had a conversation with them or not, do not you think
you might also be mistaken in regard to this matter of having an action for £10,000 ? I am quite sure.
1 always looked upon him (Maguire) as a friend of mine. I did not know he was connected with the
League until quite lately.
8469. Did Beadman appear to be at all flurried on that occasion, or that day ? No, not in the least. Of
course I cannot say how he appeared when in conversation with Kelly and Maguire — I was some distance
away.
8470. If he had been flurried while in conversation with them do you think he would have shown signs of
it when he returned to you ? I suppose so, certainly.
8471. Did he (Beadman) make any statement to you as to what the conversation had been about? Not
exactly. He said they were talking about the deputation, or something of that kind. I did not pay much
attention at the time.
8472. He gave you no particulars of the conversation that took place between them ? I do not remember
that he did.
8473. Tou do not remember whether he told you that Mr. Maguire had said to him, " If there is no truth
in these charges why should you mind them" ? No.
8474. Has he ever said anything that led you to believe that he was frightened of an investigation ? No,
not in the least.
8475. He was quite indifferent ? Yes, except that he used to be a little indignant at first at the talk
about the rings.
8176. Has Constable Beadman always basn in the habit ot wearing rings ? Tes; he has been wearing'
those rings he has now for a considerable time past.
8477.
216 CHINESE (JAMBLISG COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sen.-constable S477. He has not left off wearing jewellery lately from any cause ? No ; he always wears a diamond ring,
Carson. and g0i& guard with medals, and a- diamond pin. I think they were nearly all " presentations"— the
'— — A—"~^ medals in connection with boating.
26 Oct., 1891. 8478_ 0r he 1^^ tnem p Yes. I think I heard him say he purchased the ring from some person.
8479. He is fond of jewellery, apparently ? Yes.
8480. Tou have never received a present of jewellery, such as a diamond ring, for instance, from anyone
down there ? No ; I never wear a ring myself.
8481. Tou have no other property save that which you mentioned in reply to Mr. Abigail ? No. My
wife is in receipt of £100 a year.
8482. And if anyone has credited you with being a wealthy man it is a mistake ? Tes.
8483. Tou bought the equity of redemption of a house for £100 ? Tes.
8484. And are paying back the principal and interest of the balance to a Building Society ? Tes ;
£3 18s. 6d. a month. •
8485. Where do you live ? In Cumberland-street. I live convenient to my beat.
8486. With regard to the Chinese gambling-dens in Queen's-place : — do you say that you and Constable
Beadman have not been inside, either to smoke opium or anything else ? I have been in, but not to
smoke opium.
8487. Tou have not been in to lounge about or waste time ; — do you go in there officially ? Tes, to see what
is going on. To see if there are any women there, or characters of bad repute. We might have a chat
with the occupants on such occasions.
8488. And you say that on no occasion did Mr. Nock confront you and Beadman and tell you it was a
shame for you to be in there making free with those people ? I am positively certain he never said such
a thing.
8489. It is utterly untrue ? Tes.
8490. Mr. McKillop.~\ Tou said in reply to Mr. Abigail a short time ago that the gambling-dens in Lower
G-eorge-street were decreasing in number ? Tes.
8491. Would you be surprised to know that there are upwards of thirty-three houses in Lower G-eorge-
street similar to those shown on the photographs before you ? I should be surprised, certainly.
8492. I suppose you have noticed that a large number of those houses had notices stuck up which have
latterly been taken off ? I have noticed them, yes.
8493. Do you know at whose instigation those placards were taken down or obliterated ? I cannot say,
unless it was something that appeared in the Press about a month or six weeks ago, which caused them to
be torn down.
8494. Do you know of any communication having been sent from the Inspector- General of Police lately
to your office ? Tes. '
8495. Do you know the nature of that communication ? It had reference to these notices.
8496. Did Inspector Atwill immediately act upon that communication ? Tes ; he sent for an interpreter.
8497. Was it owing to a communication from the Chief of Police that these notices were washed off the
walls of the Chinese houses ? I cannot say that.
8498. Are you aware whether Inspector Atwill went round with an interpreter ? I cannot say. I know
a senior-constable went round with an interpreter.
8499. Who was the senior-constable that went round with the interpreter ? I think Beadman went
there. I do not recollect the particular day ; but Beadman met the interpreter, who explained some of
the notices to him, I think.
8500. Tou and Beadman generally knock about together, do you not ? Tes.
8501. Then on that day you were not with him ? No ; we were separated for a short time.
)*502. In the course of your rounds in that portion of the town you must have noticed a large number of
these placards on the Chinese houses ; and since you have ascertained their meaning, does it occur to you,
what a large number of such notices used to be exposed outside the doors of the Chinese houses ? I
remember a few houses having the notices posted outside, but I took no interest in them, being in Chinese
characters. But I know that something appeared in the Press about them, and that they were torn down
from some of the houses.
8503. Did you ever visit any of the gambling-dens in Lower George-street for the purpose of playing
dominoes ? No.
8504. Never at any time ? No. Chinese dominoes are different from the European game.
8505. I mean the European dominoes ? I have never played in the Chinese places in my life.
8506. Have you had oyster suppers with those gambling-house-keepers ? IN o, not with the gamblers ; I
have had once or twice with a respectable man.
8507. Do you know a one-eyed Chinaman — a notorious gambler — down there ? Tes ; they call him
" Canary" — he is a cook, I think.
8508. Did you ever enter a refreshment bar with this Chinaman called " Canary" ? I may have done.
8509. Is he not a notorious gambler ? I do not know him to be.
8510. Is he a respectable man ? I never knew him to commit a breach of the law, and he always keeps
himself decently dressed. He often gave us information about people that we wanted.
8511. And you emphatically deny having gone into an oyster-saloon with any of these low-class China-
men ? I do not remember having been into one of them".
8512. Tou say that in your experience there have been two or three raids made on the Chinese gamblers
in Lower George-street ? Tes.
8513. Do you not think it was quite possible to have made many more raids than you did? Well, I do
not think they would have been attended with much success." I know that on several occasions Mr.
Atwill has contemplated raids, and owing to the way the places were barricaded, and the difficulty of
getting anyone inside to prove the case from personal observation, they fell through from time to time.
8514. Do you not think that the effect of making raids upon these places, even if you had no chance of
catching them red-handed, as it were, would be to offer a check to the gambling down there — would it not
tend to prevent them opening these places and playing with impunity ? The diflBculty is that you have no
justification without a warrant.
8515. Tou can act on suspicion ? Tes ; but you must get a warrant.
8516. "\ ery well, having got your warrant, you proceed to take action; — could you not in that way
harass
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EYIDENCE. 217
harass them? Yes ; but I am afraid if we carried on that line of conduct it would only frustrate the Mr.
object in view by making them more alert. W.H. Carson.
8517. You are of opinion that if raids were made to harass them no good would accrue? That is my C^ N
opinion. B J 26 Oct., 1891.
o-!o' S° J0U consicler tne Preseilt law sufficiently stringent to deal with the evil ? I do not think it is.
Sol9 Have you given the subject thought or study ? I have not made a particular study of it, but I do
not think the present law is quite stringent enough.
8520. Are you in favour of a law being passed to give the police greater power to enter these places at
anytime? les. ,
8521. And that in the event of gambling implements being found on the table that ought to be sufficient
evidence upon which to found an indictment against the occupant for being the keeper of a common
gaming-house? Yes.
8522. Do you think the landlords of these places should also be held responsible after receiving due
o?toe ^- ,ir tenants are carrying on gambling ? Yes ; I think it would have a very healthy effect.
8523. 1 ou have considered that point ? Yes.
S52^ 'rJ-°U Stated a little while a8° tnat there were a large number of Chinese going home to China, and
that Chinese gambling had decreased very considerably ? Yes.
8525. Now has it not considerably increased so far as the Europeans are concerned ? Undoubtedly not,
so tar as my observation has gone.
8526. Are you on that beat during the day and night ? I may be there at any time in an emergency ;
but I am mostly there during the forenoon, and any time after 9 o'clock at night, up to 12 and 1 o'clock.
8o27. Does Constable Beadman have the same hours as yourself ? Yes.
8528. And the other two plain-clothes constables are Sergeant Higgins and Senior-constable Adair?
Yes ; they have similar hours, with the exception of Sundays.
8529. Have you not seen Europeans going into these Chinese gambling-dens very frequently ? Yes ; I
have seen them about the shops.
8530. Do you think the pawnbroker Foster has any connection with these gambling-dens ? No ; I do
not believe it.
8531. Do you think it increases the trade to have these gambling-dens in close proximity to an establish-
ment of that kind ? I do not think so.
8532. Are you aware that gamblers pawn their jewellery when they lose ail their ready cash at fan-tan, .
so that they may continue the game ? I do not ; but I know that Foster is a respectable man.
8533. Have you had any conversation about these matters with anyone previous to coming up here ? I
had a conversation with Beadman. I asked him the other day, after he had been here, what was said,
and he declined to answer me. He said he had made a strong declaration, but he would not divulge what
he had said.
8534. Did you have any conversation with anyone else ? No.
8535. I suppose the question of the Eoyal Commission has been a general topic of conversation at the
police station ? At one time it was talked about, but it is a dead letter now.
8536. It has formed the subject of conversation or discussion ? Oh, yes ; all down George-street. The
people used to chaff us about " diamond rings," and so forth.
8537. You know the night the Commission came down there to make an inspection of that portion of the
district ? Yes.
8538. Did you get any rews of the intention of the Commission to visit that locality? Not the least.
I was surprised when I saw them. I saw a crowd collected when the Commission was in the lane near
Foster, the pawnbroker's, leading into Queen's-place ; that was the first intimation I had of the visit.
8539. Have you ever entered these gambling-dens when gambling has been in full swing ? Not in the
fan-tan rooms. I have been in the outer rooms, in front.
8540. Have you ever dispersed crowds from those places, kicking and buffeting them ? I have never done
any kicking or buffeting. I have put them out and frightened them.
8541. Have you never seen money on the table when you have been in those places ? Never.
8542. Have you never been in when the lights have been put out and a scramble has taken place ? No ;
only on the night when the raid was made.
8543. "What amount of money was on the table on that occasion ? I cannot swear positively. It is on
record. I do not think there was much money on the table. I think it must have been in their pockets.
It took us some time to enter.
8544. Were you one of the first to enter ? Yes ; I knocked the partition down. Another constable was
sent to get through the skylight.
8545. If anybody has stated that you and Constable Beadman have entered one of these places when
gambling has been in full swing, and that you started kicking and buffeting the people there, that would
be untrue ? Yes. I never did so, nor did I ever see Constable Beadman do so.
8546. Are constables in uniform authorised to enter these places ? Yes, in the execution of their duty;
but as a rule they do not go in the same as we do.
8547. Did you ever see young children — girls or boys — in these Chinese dens ? No.
85"48. You do not know, of your own knowledge, of Europeans gambling in these places and losing very
heavily, and of working-men losing all their earnings there ? I have have heard of men of the working
class losing £2 or £3 ; but they win sometimes again. They indulge principally in pak-ah-pu tickets,
and sometimes strike something good.
8549. Do you not think if Europeans kept fan-tan tables, and ran these lotteries, and gambled to the
same extent, as openly as the Chinese do down there, action would have been taken by the police force
much sooner than has been the case with the Chinese gambling-house keepers ? I cannot say that. I
think it would be more easy for the police to succeed in the case of Europeans than with the Chinese.
8550. "Who arranges these raids ? Mr. Atwill swears the information, and gets the warrant for the
house concerned.
8551. Does he make it public at all ; — does he tell all the members of the force in his division ? No.
For instance, we made the raid on Moy Ping's and knew nothing about it until the last moment. I knew
that a raid was contemplated some time previously, when we got the crow-bars, but he did not tell me on
that occasion until the party was organised to surround the place, some in the front, and others in the rear.
272—2 E 8552.
218 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 8552. Do you think it would have been possible for others to know it ? No, I do not. Mr. Atwill is a
W.H.Carson. very s]jrew(j man_ -\\re plainclothes men would be the most likely ones to be told ; and he did not even
9fi7r"7*~TR9l confide iu us.
c '• ' 8353. Do you think that if this evil were checked it would mean a great benefit to a large number of
people who are now induced to go to these places for the purpose of gambling ? I cannot say.
8551. I am asking your opinion on that point ; — would it not be far better for the community in general
to have a stop put to the gambling in Lower George-street ? I dare say it would have a beneficial effect
upon the community.
8555. Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that a large number of these places, where gambling is carried
on, actually do no legitimate business whatever, and that they only keep some fusty old tea or other things
in the window for show, and by way of a blind ? Yes. I have noticed tea in the windows of places where
a lot of Chinese gardeners and hawkers come and mess together.
8556. Would you be surprised to know that some of these places are assignation houses to which European
girls are brought from Woolloomooloo and other places ? I would be surprised to hear that.
8557. You would be surprised to learn that we have evidence of a reliable character that such is the case ?
Yes, I should.
8558. Have you ever seen any young girls being brought into these Chinese dens ? No, indeed. In fact
I have never seen any women in the gambling-houses in Lower G-eorge-street at all.
8559. Have you seen any in the houses about the Bocks ? There are women about the Bocks who go
with blackfellows and Chinamen, and the lower class of Europeans.
8560. Have you seen any young girls decoyed in there ? No.
8561. Have you ever seen any disgraceful scenes enacted among those women ? 5o.
8562. Are they quite orderly then ? They are sometimes disorderly about that locality.
8563. Have you power to make arrests in such cases ? Yes ; if they commit themselves in our sight, we
run them in for riotous behaviour or disorderly conduct. The police have that power.
8564. Has Senior-constable Adair any property ? Not to my knowledge.
8565. He has been a long time in the service, has he not? Ten or twelve years, I think.
8560. Has he always been well thought of by his superior officers ? Yes, he is a reliable man.
8567. He is a very respectable man ? Yes, strictly abstemious.
8568. Have you at any time received any presents in the shape of preserved ginger, tea, or anything else
from Chinese residents of Lower George-street? Not at all.
8569. Have you ever had a present sent to you at Christmas or the New Year, not knowing where it
has come from ? No.
8570. Do you know any of the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Yes.
8571. Do you know Mr. Armstrong ? Yes.
8572. Is he a respectable man ? Yes.
8573. Do you know Mr. Kelly ? Yes ; I have heard he went insolvent lately.
8574. Do you know Mr. Buchanan, the publican ? Yes.
8575. Has he always kept his house well-conducted ? Yes, very well.
8576. You have said you are intimately acquainted with Mr. Nock ? Yes.
8577. Have you always found him a very respectable man ? 1 have.
8578. Do you think, in giving his evidence here, he had any ill-will against you ? I never did him any
harm.
8579. Do you think it probable that Mr. Nock took an interest in this matter through the large amount
of injury done to the business of his firm by the extension of the Chinese gambling evil down there ?
Yes; 1 think he always takes an interest in matters of this kind. He took an interest in the strike.
8580. Is he a man of excitable temperament ? I never saw him excited.
8581. Do you think he took action in this matter from pure motives? I can't say ; I have always
found Mr. Nock a highly respectable j oung man.
8582. Mr. Abigail."] During my examination of you you said that you had not seen very many Europeans
visiting these Chinese gambling-houses ? Not so many Europeans in the fan-tan shops.
8583. Now, listen to this in Mr. Nock's evidence : " I have seen as many as 500 white people turned out
of the gambling-houses situated between our place and the corner of Argyle-street " ; — could an event of
that kind occur, do you think, without the police being aware of it ? I do not believe that.
8584. Could a thing of that kind take place without the police being aware of it ? I should think not.
I was never aware of it, at all events.
8585. Then Mr. Nock was asked (Q. 168) : " Whom are they (the gambling-houses) frequented by
generally? " and he answers, " Mostly whites "; — but you do not sustain that statement? No ; there are
only a few houses frequented by whites.
8586. Do you know that there are over thirty Chinese-kept places down there, and that twenty-four of
them at least are reported to be gambling-houses ? No ; I should say about sixteen or eighteen. I may
say that the whites who visit these places probably indulge in pak-ah-pu.
8587. President.'] In your estimate of the number of gambling-houses do you include the lottery pro-
prietors ? Yes.
8588. Then, according to you, the maximum number of gambling-houses of all kinds would be eighteen ?
Yes ; about sixteen or eighteen.
8589. Mr. Quong Tart.] Have you ever heard of a Chinese secret society among the gamblers ? I have
not heard of a secret society. 1 have heard of societies in existence in China, for revenge, or something
of that kind, but not in Sydney.
8590. Is there much crime amongst the Chinese in Lower George-street? No ; a very small percentage.
8591. Mr. McKillop.] Do you know ex-Constable Quealy ? Yes.
8592. Used he to be on that beat ? Yes.
8593. Was he not in any of these raids made upon the Chinese gambling-dens ? I do not remember
that he was.
8594. Is he a man of any means ? He had the reputation of having a few hundred pounds. I know
nothing about his private affairs..
8595. He had the reputation among his comrades of possessing some means ? Yes ; it was said he had
a few hundred pounds the time he was discharged from the force.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OS1 EVIDENCE, 219
Mr. Thos. Quealy recalled and examined : —
8596. Mr. Hawthorne.] Was it to you that Sibthorpe showed the printed evidence taken before this Mr.
Commission, which you have referred to in the course of your examination here ? Tes ; he showed me Quealy-
a copy. ^T~,~'*~^
8597. He handed you a copy of the evidence ? Wo. He showed me himself something where Armstrong ° '" '
had made a statement about me.
8598. He allowed you to read it ? He read it for me, and I looked over him.
8599. I thought you stated on the last occasion that you took it in your hand and read it ? I might have
done, but I believe I did not.
8600. "What did he do with it after showing you what Armstrong said? He took it away.
8601. Did you see the copy later on ? No.
8602. Are you quite sure on that point— just refresh your mind ;— did not you ask Sibthorpe to get you
a copy? Tes, I think I did.
8603. Did he produce it at a later stage? ' No. I got no copy.
8604. Did not you see any evidence after that ? No ; I only saw Armstrong's evidence.
8605. Did not you get a copy left with you after that ? No.
8606. Are you quite sure ? Tes, quite sure.
8607. How did Sibthorpe say he came to get hold of it ? First of all he came into the house and asked
for Mr. Quealy ; I am stopping with my brother.
8608. What Mr. Quealy did he refer to ? I believe he referred to my brother at the time.
8609. What is your brother's first name ? John.
86 LO. And yours is? Thomas.
8611. How is it you interviewed him when he wanted to see your brother ? I asked him what he wanted,
and then we went into an inside room, and had the paper containing what Armstrong said about my
applying for a license for a hotel at Balmain, and being refused, and applying for the " Shannon Hotel,"
and getting the license. I was the person referred to.
8612. He handed you the evidence to read for yourself, which, of course, you did ? I do not think I had
the copy in my hand — I just looked over it.
8613. Tou did not have entire possession of it ? No.
8614. Is Sibthorpe a customer of the house? Tes; he was always a customer there; at least up to a
fortnight ago he was a regular customer.
8615. How do you account for his knocking off coming there a fortnight ago ? I cannot say.
86L6. Tou cannot think of any reason for his discontinuing his visits to the house ? No.
8617. How many weeks ago was it that he showed you the copy of the evidence ? I think it was the
early part of this month, as well as I can remember. I know it was this month early.
8618. About the first week in October ? Tes ; I think it would be about that.
8619. What reply did he make when you asked him to get another copy ? I know he made the reply
that he had no right to show it to me.
8620. He said he had no right to show you ? Tes ; he also said something about reconstructing the
evidence, or something to that effect.
8621. What was it like — a couple of pages like this [showing two pages of foolscap printed matter] ? I
think there were more leaves than that.
8622. About four pages ? Tes ; it was about that, I am sure.
8623. There were more leaves or pages than the one containing the particular statement affecting your-
self? Tes.
8624. Tou are quite certain on that point ? Quite certain.
8625. Did he inform you where he got it from ? I understood he got it from where he worked.
8626. Had you told him previously to look out for the evidence ? No ; I was not concerned about it.
8627. Did you shout for him that day ? No.
8628. If he stated that you shouted for him on that occasion, it was between 7 and 8 o'clock ? I did
not shout for him.
8629. Is he a man of steady habits ? He has been on the booze.
8630. Did he appear to be on the spree at that time ? No, not at that time.
863 1. Was he quite sober, so far as you could judge, when he showed you the evidence ? Tes.
8632. Were you quite sober ? Certainly.
8633. I suppose you would be able to tell whether Sibthorpe was sober? Undoubtedly, he was sober.
He might have had two or three drinks for all I would know.
8634. He called to see you in the early part of the evening ? Tes ; it was between 7 and 8 o'clock.
8635. And then he showed you the evidence ? Tes ; he asked me if I was the person referred to.
1 8636. Tou are quite sure he told you he had no right to show you the evidence ? Tes.
8637. Do you feel in your own mind that he was guilty of a misdemeanour so far as showing you this
evidence was concerned ? Well of course he might be if he had anything to do with it.
8638. Did he not ask any consideration for having shown it to you ? No.
8639. Tou must have been on tolerably intimate terms with .this man for him to volunteer to do you such
a .service? He did not volunteer ; I knew nothing about it until he brought it and asked me if I was
the person referred to. .
8640. So that the production of this portion of the evidence was voluntary on his part, and was not
brought about by any action on your part ? Quite so ; I never knew anything about it.
8641. Up to that time you were quite ignorant of your name having been brought before the Com-
mission ? Tes ; I may say that I thought this man was an engineer, or something of the, sort, up to that
time.
8642. Tou had no idea that he was a compositor in the Government Printing Office ? No.
8643. Up to that time you thought he was an engineer ? Tes.
8644. Have you discussed the matter with him since this question arose, in any way ? I do not think I
have spoken to him since or seen him until to-day.
8645. Tou have not discussed this question at all? No.
8646. Has any friend of his been to interview you with regard to the matter ? No.
8647. Tou are quite sure the slips of printed paper he showed you wete perfectly clean and tidy-looking in
every way ? Quite sure.
220 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MIXrTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 8618. "Will you inform the Commission what amount of money you withdrew from the bank when you left
T. Quealy. the police force? If it is necessary I will.
"jr^""!"^, 8649. It is necessary, if you please ? I drew £300 out of St. Joseph's Building Society, and £50 out of
' the Barrack-street Savings Bank, as near as I can remember. There might be a little more or less.
8650. "Would that be about the maximum amount? Tes.
8651. Tou drew no other moneys out of any bank at about that time ? No. It was £350 or £360
all told.
8652. Could you fix the maximum at £400 ? No, it was not £400, 1 am quite sure. The £300 was in
St. Joseph's Building Society at fixed deposit for twelve months, the interest being 6 per cent., or £18.
8653. You drew your deposit of £300 and £18 interest, at the rate of 6 per cent, per annum ? Tes.
8654. Do you remember having had a conversation with Mr. Armstrong ? I do not think I have had a
conversation with him since I left the police. I saw him one day in Sussex-street.
8655. "Were you ever asked if you had anything to say about the police having received bribes from any-
one ? No ; I never spoke of such a thing.
8656. Did you ever say to him, or anyone else, that you would have something to say on that point to this
Commission ? No,
8657. Do you know nothing whatever to implicate the police in any way in regard to receiving presents
or bribes ? No ; and I do not believe in my own mind that they are guilty of anything of that kind.
8658. Tou know of nothing suspicious having taken place in the conduct of the men who were associated
with you in the service ? Certainly not.
8659. And you swear positively you never received anything in the shape of a present yourself ? I never
received a shilling from anyone.
8660. And the money you have is the result of your savings for years past ? Tes ; I can show you what
I have saved every year. I was a first-class constable for four years.
8661. Mr. McKillop.~\ Did you ask Mr. Sibthorpe to supply you with a copy of the evidence referring to
you at any time ? No.
8661|. Did not I understand you to say that he (Sibthorpe) told you, in answer to your application, that
he would try to get it ? That was in reference to a copy of it. I asked him to show it to me, and he did.
8ii62. And the first time you knew anything about it was when he brought it to you as you have related?
Tes.
8663. During your connection with the police force, Mr. Quealy, did you ever make any raids, or were
you ever present when any raids were made upon the Chinese gambling-houses ? I was.
8664. How many raids during the time you were in the police force? To the best of my recollection,
five. I can remember five.
8(565. How long were you in the police force ? I joined in January, 1884.
8666. Tou were in the force about six years ? Tes, six years and six months.
8667. And there were five raids made during that time ? To the best of my knowledge, yes.
8668. How many were you concerned in personally ? I think I was connected with two or three of them.
8669. "When you have made a rush inside, have you seen Europeans gambling — playing fan-tan ? Tes.
8670. In large munbers ? I think there were twenty or thirty Europeans on the last occasion.
8671. Have you been in any of these places in the execution of your duty when the gas has been turned
out, and a general scrimmage and scramble has taken place ? Tes ; that is the rule.
8672. Have you been in a scrimmage when there has been money on the table, and a scramble made for
it ? I have heard it, but have not got near enough to see.
8673. Tou never assisted at a scramble for the money ? No, never in my life.
8674. And if anyone has said that you with others have on occasions been in one of these affairs, and
have kicked and buffeted the people there, and put the money in your pocket, it would be untrue? It
would.
8675. Tou have noticed that gambling has been on the increase in Lower George-street ? Tes, before
the last strike, but since that it has been wonderfully on the decrease. Two years ago gambling was in
full swing there.
8676. I suppose all classes of Europeans go into these places up to 11 and 12 o'clock — you have seen
them ? Tes, anybody can go in and see.
8677. They walk in and out as they would at a public-house ? Tes.
8678. Do you not consider that this evil could have been checked if steps had been taken by the inspector in
charge of the district in the earlier stages of its growth ? Well, I cannot say the Inspector is to blame,
because I believe the law is not stringent enough. The police are not given enough power. If they
had the power it could be suppressed in six months.
8679. Kindly give us the reasons on which you have formed that opinion ? As I have said, the police
have not power at the_ present time ; and to suppress it I would increase their power, and make any
Europeans liable that might be found on the premises.
8680. If any gambling implements were found on the premises you would punish the occupants or tenants
of the houses? Tes, and I would also hold the landlords responsible.
8681. Immediately, or would you give them notice? In the cases of the landlords I would give notice.
8682. Then you would give the police power .to walk in, and, as long as they were observed to oe playing
inside, lock them up without more ado ?
8683. And make both tenant and landlord liable ? Tes ; I believe it is the only way to chr< k it.
8684. "Who gets up these raids;— is it the Inspector-General of Police or the Inspector of the district ? The
Inspector of the district might, of course, get his orders from the Inspector- General or the Superintendent
but he always organises the raids himself— that is, Mr. Atwill.
8685 Now, if he could organise one, or two, or five, in the course of six and a half years, is it not quite
possible to organise fifty m a like period ? He could organise one for every night for that matter. But
they are not always successful. Sometimes an appeal is made to the Upper Court, and the Chinamen get
out of it, and that is discouraging.
86S6. But by harassing 1hem continually might they not be made to clear out ? In my iud"ment it would
not be justified unless the law was made more stringent. " °
8687. Do you think if imprisonment were imposed as the penalty, instead of a fine, it would help to cure
the evil t- Well really I do not think so, because these gambling-houses are run by syndicates, and the
employees would suffer and not the real proprietors, who pay the employees so much per week. 8688.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINT7TES OF EVIDENCE. 221
8688. The employer walks about and enjoys himself, whilst the unfortunate fellows who run these dens Mr-
are the victims ? That is my opinion. T- Quealy>
8689. Has the system ever been explained to you by any of the respectable Chinese merchants ? No. 26^t^891
8690. You have not formed your opinion on any conversation you have had with respectable Chinese c '*
merchants down that end of the town ? No ; but I have been told so by other Chinamen who keep the
gambling-houses.
8691. You have been told so by the Chinese gamblers themselves ? Yes.
8692. And you came to the conclusion that the members of these syndicates behind the scenes were the
men who reaped the benefits of the traffic ? Yes.
8693. Did you at any time ever have any oyster-suppers in any of these gambling-houses ? No ; never
in my life.
8694. Have you seen Senior-constables Carson and Beadman enter these dens at anytime? Yes ; I have
seen them enter.
8695. Were they on intimate terms with some of these gamblers, do you know ? Not to my knowledge.
8696. You have not seen Carson and Beadman hobnobbing with them ? Never.
8697. Do both of these officers bear good characters in the police? Yes.
8698. Have you ever heard of any presents being made to any members of the police force at any time ?
No ; I never heard of it.
8699. Not in the shape of chests of tea, or anything of that kind ? No.
8700. Have you seen boys going into these Chinese" gambling-houses to buy pak-ah-pu tickets ? Yes.
8701. Any girls ? No ; I have only seen the girls that live with the Chinese.
8702. Prostitutes? Yes.
8703. But you have seen boys enter these places ? Yes ; boys, of from 14 to 15 years of age, or perhaps
a year or two older.
8704. Is it not a fact that a number of larrikins are employed by the Chinese down in that quarter ? No ;
they do not like them.
8705. Is it not a fact then that they employ Europeans to give them the office when the police are
coming ? Yes ; I think it is.
8706. They live on the Chinese ? Yes.
8707. And through that the police are often baffled ? Yes.
8708. They go up near to where the police are and overhear conversations, and give the Chinamen the
tip ? Yes.
8709. Is there a large amount of prostitution carried on in the lower Chinese quarters of that portion of
George-street ? I do not think so.
8710. Is there much on the Bocks ? Very little.
87il. Have you known of any respectable young girls being decoyed by the Chinese down there ? No.
8712. You did not enter their places very often, did you ? Sometimes, when looking after sailors.
8713. Were the sanitary conditions of these places fairly good ? Yes ; they were pretty clean.
8714. Did you see much opium-smoking on the premises ? Oh, yes ; a great deal of opium-smoking.
8715. Have you ever seen any Europeans lying on the Chinese beds, under the influence of opium ?
I have.
8716. Any women? Yes ; I have seen some women.
8717. Have you seen any disgraceful scenes or orgies going on in these opium-dens ? No.
8718. How many gambling-houses are there in Lower George-street, to the best of your knowledge ? I
think I counted twenty-four or twenty-five.
8719. Were there that many when you entered the police force in that part of the city ? Yes ; I should
think there would be.
8720. In how many of these dens, to the best of your knowledge, do Europeans gamble? In all of them.
8721. You think there are the same number of these places now as there were when you joined the
force ? Yes.
8722. There might be a few more or less ? Yes.
8723. Do you think, as a man of the world, that if Europeans were to carry on gambling as openly as the
Chinese have done there, the police authorities would have taken action long before such a time had
elapsed, and checked it ? I should think they would.
8724. Have you had any conversation with any of the police since this Commission was appointed, or
since you left the police force, relative to the Commission ? Not to my recollection.
8725. Did no one ever speak you in a casual way about it, such as to say, " I see your name is also one of
those who have received bribes "; — did aoyone speak to you in that strain? They might have said so ; I
cannot exactly say. I have met a few of them. In the course of conversation they probably did say it,
but I cannot recollect.
8726. To whom did you have a talk on the subject ? A few of the men who came in to see me.
8727. Of the police force ? Yes.
8728. Belonging to the same district ? Yes.
8729. You cannot recollect whether any conversation of the nature I have described took place? I can-
not say. In fact I never took any particular interest in the thing myself. I never thought I should be
called as a witness.
8730. Have you noticed any large numbers of people going into these gambling-houses on Saturday after-
noon ? Yes, hundreds. About two years ago the various houses were very much frequented.
8731. Previous to that, large numbers used to go in and out there regularly — it used to be like a fair
down there, was it not? Yes, sometimes.
8732. Do you not think if this evil were suppressed the effect upon the community, and especially those
who frequent these dens, would be highly beneficial ? I do.
8733. The effect of the gambling mania there has been to reduce many families to destitute circum-
stances, I believe ? Yes.
8734. Have poor women appealed to you whose husbands have been spending their time and substance in
these dens ? They have sometimes complained to me about their husbands going there.
[The witness withdrew.]
Gerald"
222 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Gerald Sibthorpe recalled and examined : —
Q. Sibthorpe. 8735. ]\£r Hawthorne.] {Pointing to Thos. Quealy.) Is that the man you referred to in your
26 Oct., 1891. 8736 Wnatever you state(i na(j reference to him ? Tes.
8737. Mr. Abigail.'] "With reference to the production of the evidence to Thos. Quealy, did he ask you to
bring a copy ? I would not be sure — he might have done so.
8738. How long is it since you brought the evidence down to him ? It is about four or five weeks ago.
8739. Do you think the early part of this month would be about the tiuie ? Before that I should say.
8740. Are you quite sure upon the point that he never asked you to bring it down ? No ; he may have
done.
8741. Did you think you were doing wrong in bringing down that evidence? No ; I thought it was all
worked off.
8742. Where did you get it ? In the water-closet.
8743. "Was it a dirty-looking copy ? No.
8744. Do they usually take documents of that kind for use in the water-closets ? It may be sometimes
the sheets are spoiled, and they are thrown out.
8745. "What size was the printed paper you took down to him ? The size of a sheet.
8746. "What would you call that in printer's phraseology? Foolscap.
S747. Did you hand him the paper to read when you went down witb it ? No ; I only showed it to him.
8748. Did you ask for Thos. Quealy ? He was there. I said to him, " Is this you ? " referring to the
evidence, and he said, " Tes ; can you get me a copy ? " I said, " I do not know whether it is printed off
or not."
8749. Did you make any remark as to whether you were justified m doing what you did ? No.
8750. Tou did not admit that you were doing wrong ? Not to him.
8751. How is it that you did not leave the copy with him if you thought there was no harm in it? I
thought when he wanted it that perhaps it had not been laid on the table of Parliament.
8752. Then, was it not until he asked you to give him a copy of the evidence that it struck you you were
producing a document that ought not to have left the Government Printing Office ? I suppose so.
8753. What did you do with the copy ? I tore it up.
8754. Tou did not leave a copy with him ? No ; in fact I only showed him one line.
8755. Did he take it in his hand and read it ? No ; it was lying on the table. I had heard a lot about
Quealy from people on the Rocks.
8756. How came you there ? I had friends there.
8757. And how came you to talk about him? They had been down to his hotel, and asked me if I knew
Quealy. I said " Yes " ; and they then said he gave his own brother six months.
8758. "Was that the policeman ? Tes.
8759. This conversation took place when you visited the Eocks ? Tes.
8760. Tou were discussing the evidence you had been setting up in type ? No.
8761. Are you now aware that you committed a very great act of indiscretion in showing this evidence as
you did ? I am now, yes. It did not occur to me at the time.
[The witness withdrew.]
TUESDAY, 27 OCTOBER, 1891.
$xtsmt: —
The Mayor of Sydney (Me. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
PEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbesident.
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STDAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Senior-sergeant Bartholomew Higgins called and examined : —
Sen.-sergt. 8762. President.] Tou are a senior-sergeant of police ? Tes.
Higgins. 8763. How long have you been a senior-sergeant ? Eight years, I think.
'~^-A- — - 8764. How long have you been in the police force altogether ? I have been in the New South "Wales
27 Oct., 1891. p0]jce twenty-seven years and three months.
8765. "When were you first located in Lower George-street ? Twenty -five years ago this week. I came
from Cockatoo Island there.
8766. And you have been a senior-sergeant for eight years ? Tes ; I believe I have been a non-
commissioned officer for eighteen years altogether.
8767. I suppose you are familiar with your district generally? Tes.
8768. "What particular part of it do you specially patrol? Generally in George-street, because the
station is there ; but I am not confined to any part.
8769. Lower George-street being the principal avenue, you patrol that more than any other part, as a
rule ? Tes -, more particularly in the early part of the night.
8770. In the course of your duties, sergeant, you will have discovered that there are a number of Chinese
gambling-houses in Lower George-street ? Tes, there are.
8771. When did you first make that discovery ? Well it has been off and on, as it were, for some years.
8772. I suppose it would be five years, at least? Tes ; I dare say.
8773. Do you think there were as many of these places in existence five years ago as there were (say) six
months ago ? "Well I think we had more gambling then, but not in Lower George-street.
8774. There were not so many gambling-places in Lower George-street ? No.
8775. They were situated in other parts then ? Tes ; on the Kocks and in Queen-street. I may say that
new houses have been built in Lower George- street, and these have been a considerable time to let before
the Chinese occupied them, and then some of them became gambling-houses.
8776. Then it is within your knowledge that within the last five years gambling-houses have increased in
number in Lower George-street ? Tes ; in the way I have explained to you.
8777.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES Or ETIDENCE. 223
8777. Now, do you receive any instructions from your superior officer with regard to these gambling- Sen-sergt.
houses ? Tes; I have received instructions with regard to them. , Higgins.
8778. "Will you state to the Commission what those instructions have been ? On some occasions we have o^vTv'TD,
got out warrants for them. ll Uot-' 189X;
o^on YeI& aay instructions £iveu y°u to visit these places, that is what I want to know? Tes.
8/80. And you did visit them? I may tell you, sir, that we did get direct instructions with regard to
the gambling-houses, and I got general instructions with regard to immorality or whatever it might be that
was carried on in that quarter.
8781. Then, in consequence of these instructions, and in the exercise of your duty, you did visit these
places ? les; I \isited the houses in the back streets at least twice a week, and the places in G-eorge-
street 1 visited more frequently.
8782. And I suppose you reported to your superior officer when you discovered that any gambling was
going on? Tes. J s
?In,' Wliat action did he take upon your report ? He procured warrants to enter the houses.
8784. Who is your superior officer ? Inspector Atwill.
8785. He procured the warrants ? He did on several occasions.
8786. How many times, within your knowledge, during the last five years has Inspector Atwill applied
tor warrants to enter these houses ? I cannot say how many.
8787. Can you not give an idea ? No, sir. Tou see this is a police matter, and it would not be well for it
to go forth to the world. It is a very delicate duty we have to perform, and we want to keep our method
of operations as private as possible. If I give you all the information about these warrants I suppose
the evidence will be published, and the persons affected will know that the warrants are in existence.
8788. That is a matter of public policy with which you have nothing to do ; for the purposes of this
inquiry it is necessary that you should answer the question I have put to you ? Tou will excuse me, sir,
if I point out that there are some things in connection with the operations of the police which to let the
world know would frustrate the ends of justice. Por instance, say I am in search of a man suspected of
having committed a criminal offence, and I have a warrant for his arrest, if that becomes known it
will be harder for me to get that man.
8789. I am talking ahout the warrants issued in respect of gambling-houses only ; — how many times,
within your knowledge, has your superior officer obtained warrants to enable you to make visits or raids
upon any of the Chinese gambling-houses in your district ? Well, I think I could safely say about ten
times within the last five years, and perhaps "more. Not having the record with me, I do not like to
state the exact number.
8790. Tou think probably ten ? Tes, but several on each occasion.
8791. How many raids were you present at during the time mentioned ? I was present at every one of
those, with the exception of one, and that was made without a warrant.
8792. Is it legal to make a raid without a warrant ? No.
8793. Are you quite satisfied of that ? I am.
8794. Under what circumstances was the raid made without a warrant, and, therefore, -as you say,
illegally ? "Well we had a few inexperienced constables on the beat, who went in one evening, and seeing
a few Chinese playing amongst themselves, brought them' to the police station.
8795. How many raids were you present at ? At least nine.
8796. "Were they all successful ? Tes ; in all what I call raids we have been successful. But several
times we have attempted to make raids and were not successful; but we did not show ourselves. In
making these raids we have to be very particular. The police station is watched, and they have a very
good idea wli2n they see any strangers about. It makes them careful. The men have to be disguised to
get into these places, and then it is with the greatest difficulty we can obtain an entrance. On one
occasion we had to go from Queen-street through an unoccupied house, and from that through an old
window on to a brick wall, and in that way crawled on hands and knees to the roof of the gambling-house.
"When I gave the signal my mate came down through the skylight and jumped on to the centre of the
table where the men were gambling. "We had a great deal of trouble that night.
8797. "What raid was that? It was at Sam Kee's, in Lower George- street. We made two raids on that
house.
8798. Tou are sure that not less than nine raids have been made during the time you have mentioned ?
Tes ; 1 am quite sure of that. Of course I am not confining myself to a month either way in the state-
ment, as I am speaking from memory.
8799. What has been the direct result of those raids ; — how many people did you apprehend, for instance ?
In some cases we caught ten or twenty, or perhaps thirty, and on the last occasion fifty.
8800. Did you secure convictions against all of them ? Yes; in all but one. In that case the defendants
proved to the satisfaction of the magistrate that the house was a club, and so the prosecution failed.
8801. Then your experience went to show that once having obtained access there was no difficulty in
securing a conviction ? Tes.
8802. In those cases you have mentioned were the defendants fined ? Tes.
8803. Were they fined heavily ? The fines, I think, ranged from £2 up to £20 or £30. The croupier
and the banker were fined the same.
8804. The others who were present were fined £2 each ? Tes.
8805. So that those raids were in all cases successful, inasmuch as prosecutions and convictions resulted
from them ? Tes ; they were very successful, considering all the difficulties we had to contend against.
8806. When was the last raid made ? A couple of months ago.
8807. When was the raid before that made ? There was not one before that for a considerable time ;
but I must tell you this, that we had several warrants, not less than ten, I suppose, in readiness, and in
several instances the men were told to be in readiness at the station at a certain hour, although they were
not told for what particular business. I was sent along with Constable Adair to find out if the coast was
clear for us to get in, or to find men to assist us in getting in. But circumstances were not always
favourable, and when I would report the matter to Mr. Atwill he would simply let the men go without
telling them the business that had been in hand.
8808. Tou had to get witnesses ? Tes.
8809 Tou had to prepare some one to gain access to the gambling-house and give you the signal ? Tes.
8810..
224 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
27 Oct., 1891.
Sen.-»crgt. 8810. And it was because you could not complete your arrangements in that way on the occasions you
Higgma. j,ftve jU8(. referre<l to that the projected raids were abandoned ? That is the case.
8811. Coming back to the main question, when was the second last successful raid made? Nearly two
years ago.
8812. About two years elapsed between the last raid and the previous successful raid to that ? Tes. I
may say at that time we had several warrants out, for the purpose of making raids if possible ; and that
raid would not have been successful but for the assistance of certain civilians whose names I am not at
liberty to mention.
8813. It is always necessary to have the assistance of a civilian to ensure that the raids shall be successful ?
Tes ; either a civilian or a policeman in plain clothes who has never been seen about the neighbourhood.
We have great difficulty in getting into these places, for the Chinamen are continually on the alert, and
they watch the police station very closely. In many cases the watchmen are Europeans. Cases
have come to my knowledge where Europeans have been paid to watch the police station.
8814. Follow me for a moment ; — you have already stated that you procured convictions against a number
of these people, and that fines of £2 were inflicted upon the persons who were present in these places
when you made the raids ? Tes.
8815. Now can you show me the necessity of a civilian being inside to give you a signal when you have
a warrant to enter these places and arrest the people you find there and get them fined, as you say, £2
for being present, that is, whether they play or not ? It is necessary, because we must prove that the
game was being played in the house. We are not allowed to trust to imagination. We must produce
evidence to prove that it is a gambling-house, and that gambling was going on at the time.
8816. And being played when the people were assembled there ? Tes. It will not do to give hearsay
evidence ; you must swear it on oath.
8817. If you broke in, having no assistant or confederate inside, and found the people assembled there,
would that not be evidence sufficient to secure a conviction ? Not in my opinion.
8818. In organising these raids your superior officer has always endeavoured to haver sufficient evidence
to procure convictions as the result of the raids ? He did in all cases.
8819. How many times between the second last and the last successful raid do you think warrants were
in the hands of the police to make contemplated raids, which raids had to be abandoned ? We had
warrants all the time.
8820. What is the life of one of these warrants ? I think during the reign of Her Majesty, or the life of
the magistrate who signs it.
8821. 1 thought they were limited in their duration — that they must be executed within a certain time
froin date of issue ? I am not aware of that. If it is so I do not know of it. It may be so of course.
I have not charge of the warrants.
8822. Have you any reason to believe that the Chinese gambling-housekeepers have procured information
from members of the police force as to projected raids upon their establishments ? No. I cannot say
how they get their information. But unless they do get information from some source they must be
prophets.
8823. They are generally alive to the fact when a raid is projected ? Tes ; they always seem to know it.
8824. Can you account for that knowledge in any way ? No ; it has often puzzled me, and annoyed me
very much.
8825. Do you think they could have known anything in the case of the last successful raid ? I think not,
because we had men in there and they came out again. We tried to get men in disguised in plain clothes.
I was disguised myself, watching some little distance away, and I saw our men refused. admittance ; they
were pushed back.
8826. Does not that go to show that the Chinese there must have obtained some information of the pro-
jected raid on that occasion ? Well I have not that impression. At all events if they had they must
have been prophets, as it was certainly not from the police.
8827. Do they generally grant admission to the civilians who wish to enter? No, not unless they are
known. I have seen civilians turned out.
8828. Supposing I were to go down there at night do you think it probable that they would allow me to
enter? They might, or they might not.
8829. Tou know they do refuse admission to civilians sometimes ? Tes. In twenty or thirty instances
at least ; I have seen it myself. I have gone round those places with gentlemen sometimes.
8830. But, generally, I suppose Europeans have no difficulty in obtaining admission ? Their customers
have no difficulty of course.
8831. Cannot wharf labourers and seafaring men, and people of that class, obtain permission easily ?
Generally speaking, yes ; but I have seen some of these even refused.
8832. Have you ever sought to ascertain why they refused these particular people admission ? Tes. I
have asked some of them, and they have said they will not let them in — that is all. I suppose they have
suspected them.
8833. How many gambling-houses are there in Lower George-street to your knowledge ? There are four
or five where Europeans are admitted. There are other houses used as shops of various kinds where the
Chinese play amongst themselves. In this class of house they are exclusively Chinese. They play there
perhaps a sociable game merely, and perhaps also for money.
«834. Including the shops were they sell lottery-tickets with the ordinary gambling-houses where the
Europeans play and those confined to Chinese gamblers, in Lower George-street, how many shops would you
say there are devoted to gambling ? I think there are about fifteen or sixteen altogether.
8835. Are you quite sure you could not count twenty ? Tes. I am quite sure there are nothing like
thirty. I had a list of them made out not long ago. I can almost count them over now from memory.
8836. In the fifteen or sixteen you have in your mind I suppose you do not include certain shops that
carry on a legitimate business, and yet have a room in which they do practice gaming ? I do not think
there are many shops in Lower George-street earring on a legitimate business in which gambling is allowed.
We have some very respectable merchants down there.
8837. Tes we know that, but it is possible that some shops may combine trade with gambling ? Tes.
There are some shops which sell fruit, and cook-shops, in which there are rooms where the Chinese gamble
amongst themselves. There is no doubt of that.
8838. Have you ever seen any women go into these gambling-shops ? Very seldom. 8839.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 225
8839. Any children ? No children. But I have seen young lads go into these places to buy tickets, and Sen.-wrgt,
I have turned them out. H,ggms-
8840. Have you ever attempted to prosecute the keepers of these places for selling lottery-tickets ? No. 270ctl891
8841. "Why not ? Because, so far as I can ascertain — and inquiry has been made about the matter — there ''
is no law to meet the case.
8842. Do you not know that a conviction has recently been sustained against a person for selling lottery-
tickets ? I do not know that as regards lottery-tickets.
8843. Pak-ah-pu tickets ? No, I never knew that.
8844. The general impression in your mind, and in that of vour superior officer, is that a prosecution will
not succeed as against anyone for selling lottery-tickets ? Yes, sir ; that is my impression.
8845. Has your superior officer expressed to you an opinion of that kind? !No.
8846. Has he ever instructed you to proceed against these people for selling lottery -tickets ? No.
8847. Has he ever had a conversation with you on the subject ? Well, I suppose he must have ; but I
cannot remember particularly.
8848. What is the impression on your mind ? My impression is that Mr. Atwill has been under the
impression that the law will not reach them.
8849. As a matter of fact you yourself have never instituted proceedings against the proprietors of places
where lottery -tickets have been sold ? No.
8850. And for the reason you have stated ? Yes ; I may say there are a number of these lottery-shops,
where people go to buy tickets, and not to play fan-tan, and the Chinamen may be gambling in some back-
room where we can't see them.
8851. Do you say positively that there are only sixteen shops in Lower George-street, * where they have
the lottery as well as fan-tan ? There might be more, perhaps seventeen or eighteen.
8852. There would not be thirty in your opinion? No, sir ; it is a mistake.
8853. Do you know Yee Sang Loong, No. ] 26, Lower G-eorge-street ? I know the number.
8854. Is that a gaming-house ? I cannot say from memory.
8855. Do you know Doung Lee, No. 164 ? Yes ; I know the place.
8856. It belongs to Way Kee ? Yes ; on the lower side of Way Kee. I should know, for I nearly got
killed there.
8857. Under what circumstances ? In making a raid.
8858. How long ago was that ? About two or three years ago ; I was holding two Chinamen on the stairs,
and they were trying to get away from me, and I was hanging over the banisters — a drop of 10 or 12 feet.
I do not say they assaulted me, but they struggled to get away, till Adair came to my assistance. I got
hurt a little on that occasion, but it might have been worse.
8859. That was a rough gaming-house ? Just among themselves. No Europeans were allowed in these
to gamble. I never saw a European.
8860. Do you know Han Kee's, No. 166 ? Yes, well.
8861. Is it a gaming-house ? Among themselves. I never saw Europeans gambling there.
8862. Is that one of the gambling-houses you have in your mind, when you quote sixteen as the number
of such places in Lower George-street? Yes.
8863. Is there any gambling done at Way Kee's own place ? No.
8864. Do you know Pun Num's, next to Parker's ? Yes.
8865. Is that a gaming-house ? They may gamble among themselves, but it is not what I would call a
gambling-house.
8866. There are two houses there ? Yes ; I have been over them frequently. There is a cook-shop down-
stairs in one of them.
8867. There are four houses there adjoining Eelton and Nock's ; do you know them ? Yes ; I know
them well.
8868. Are they gambling-houses ? Yes ; for gambling amongst themselves ; but I think there are some
of them to let now — one or two. One of these houses I tried several times to enter to make a raid. On
different occasions I went to the place with my mate, and found it in darkness, and no gaming going on
at all.
,8869. You are quite sure that the number of gambling-houses in Lower George-street would not exceed
sixteen in number ? I cannot swear that.
8870. But you do not believe there are thirty ? No ; I do not.
8871. Did you read the account of the deputation that waited upon Sir Henry Parkes on the 30th July
last ? I read a little of it, and some of it was read to me.
8872. Did you notice that it was stated by one of the deputation that there were thirty-six houses in
Lower George-street occupied by Chinese as gambling-houses ? Yes.
8873. Did you ever seek to check the statement, and see if it was correct ? I have nothing to do with
the statements made there. Some of them were so extraordinary that I would take no notice of them.
8874. What particular statements do you refer to ? One statement, that the police were receiving 2d.
from every Is. in these gambling-houses, or something to that effect; and another about the police being
presented with diamond rings and watches, and that sort of thing.
8875. You admit that the Chinese gambling-houses have increased somewhat during the last five years ?
Well they have in Lower George-street ; but they have not increased in number in the district.
8876. Not in other parts of your district ? No.
8877. But in Lower George-street they have, you say ? Yes.
8878. Does not that imply that the practice of gambling must have been on the increase— the number of
gamblers must have been greater ? I cannot think that they have been on the increase.
8879. I. did not mean the number of houses but the number of gamesters ? Well I would not say it has
increased, because, in the first place, there are not nearly the number of Chinese in the district that we
had at one time. There are only 500 there now, and I can recollect when we had over 800.
8880. Have you heard that as many as 500 Europeans have been turned out of the gambling-houses
between (say) Way Kee's place and Argyle-street ? I have never heard it, nor do I believe it.
8881. Would you be surprised to know that some one has sworn to having seen 500 people turned out
of the gambling-houses between Felton and Nock's shop and Argyle-street ? I never heard or saw such
a thing.
272—2 F 8882.
£86 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
8882. If such a thing had occurred it would have come to your ears, I suppose, as a matter of scandal,
in the course of conversation, or otherwise ? I would have seen it, or known of it. I do not believe
there have ever been so many people in these places gambling at one time. The only people I have seen
turned out of these shops have been young people, those whom I and my mate have turned out.
8883. Tell us the largest number of persons you have seen in one of these gambling-houses which are
frequented by Europeans — the largest number assembled in a room at onetime? In the front shops I
have seen as many as ten or twelve ; I cannot speak as to the back-rooms.
8884. Have you not been in there when they have been playing fan-tan ? Only on one occasion acciden-
tally. They are exceedingly cautious.
8885. They do not allow you to enter ? No.
8886. Other policemen have been allowed to enter, have they not ? No. The only constables I ever
knew to gain admission were new to the neighbourhood.
8887. Plain-clothes constables would be allowed in, would they not ? No ; they must go in disguise, or
be strange to the district.
8888. You only got admission to the inner room on one occasion, you say ? Tes ; and that, as I have
said, was quite accidentally.
8889. How many did you find assembled there ? I found ten or fifteen there, and they all bolted as soon
as they saw my face — they ran up-stairs, and down-stairs, and everywhere. I had no warrant on that
occasion.
8890. Tou have been present at a number of raids ? Tes ; I have been present at all the raids but one.
8891. Have you ever made a raid when they have been disturbed in the game, and you have disturbed
them ? Tes.
8892. "What becomes of the money on the table ? The officer-in-charge — that is Mr. Atwill — would take
the money, or tell me to. The money is gathered up, and placed in a handkerchief, and it is afterwards
counted in the office, and placed in the safe at the station. The money is produced in Court, and con-
fiscated. The personal property found on the prisoners at the time is returned to them.
8893. The money has been taken off the table by the officers on each occasion ? Tes ; and that money
has been confiscated. I have always had charge of the money myself. Mr. Atwill has said to me : " Tou
take charge of it, and take it down to the station."
8894. The money is taken direct to the police-station and counted ? Tes.
8895. Can you give any idea of the sums of money that you have taken off the table on the occasion of
any of these raids at which you were present ? I dare say from £5 to £20, or perhaps more. But I
think £20 would be the largest amount.
8896. Tou do not think it exceeded £20 on any occasion ? No, I do not think so. If I had known you
would require the information I couid have come prepared, because we have all the records of these
things at the police station.
8897. Do you know anything about the rents paid in Lower George-street? Well I have not any
knowledge as to what each man pays.
8898. Tou have some general idea ? Tes.
8899. Comparing the present time with the state of things down there five years ago do you think the
gambling-houses have increased much ? I should think they have decreased in the district generally.
8900. As a matter of fact the shops are not so readily let at the old rentals now ? No.
8901. Do you attribute that to the fact of so many of these shops being used as gambling-houses ? That
might have an effect, but very slight, I should say.
S902. Or would you consider it reasonable to suppose that the rents generally have increased by resson
of the Chinese wanting to obtain possession of the houses for gambling purposes ? Well I believe the
Chinamen pay more rent for the places occupied by them than the European tenants.
8903. Would that have the effect of increasing the rents generally ? No, I should say it would only
affect the particular house.
8904. Is it not a fact that they fancy these houses because they are well adapted for gambling purposes ?
I suppose it is because they occupy a good stand in. the neighbourhood ; but it is a mistake to say that
they have increased of late years. Business has gone out of that end of the town altogether.
8905. Would it have decreased to a greater extent by the Chinese generally occupying that part of the
city ? It would, of course, if the place became a Chinese town altogether, because our people would not
settle amongst them.
8906. When, five years ago, people went to catch the Manly Beach steamers was it not their custom to
pass down that part of George-street? Tes.
8907. Do they do so now ? Well some do, and others go down Pitt-street.
8908. Have you noticed much diminution in the passenger traffic in that part of the city during the last
five years ? Not so much of foot passengers as the vehicular traffic. This may be accounted for by the
shipping business being more scattered and removed to a large extent from that end of the town. When
I first went there the shipping nearly all came to Circular Quay and Miller's Point, but now it nearly all
goes up Darling Harbour. Circular Quay is used almost entirely by the ferry-boats from different parts
of the harbour, and the passengers who arrive and depart by them use the trams or 'buses and go up Pitt
and Castlereagh-street. Then at one time the people on North Shore used to come across to deal with
the shops in Lower George- street, but now there are large shops on the Northern Shore which supply all
the wants of the local residents; and, consequently, this trade, which was considerable, has almost
entirely disappeared from Lower George-street.
8909. Tou think the business traffic has largely fallen off by reason of the development of trade in other
parts of the metropolis ? Tes, that is the principal cause.
,8910. What class of Europeans generally frequent these Chinese gambling-houses and buy lottery-
tickets ? Generally labouring men, mechanics, and seafaring men.
8911. Is it within your knowledge that a great deal of distress occurs among the families of these men as
the result of their gambling habits ? Tes ; indeed I have often cautioned them not to go to these places.
Eor instance, I have known a man to make a big win — say £50 or £60, and I have said to him, " Now be
satisfied and do not go back there any more." Then he has said, " Oh, I will go back and try another
5s."; and I have met him in a month's time without a penny. There are plenty of cases like that.
8912. In order to bring about the suppression of this gambling evil do you think that the police should
be
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 227
be clothed with greater powers than they have at the present time ? I do ; it is now only half a law so Sen.-sergt.
to speak. Higgins.
8913-14. In what direction would you recommend an amendment of the present law ? I think, where the 9f?T*~~^>,
police are in a position to show that any particular place is a gambling-house, that they should have the 7 Uct" 1891#
power to arrest on sight, without a warrant. There are so many difficulties in the way of getting into
these places at present. We have to get men and fit them up— disguise them, and we have to break
through the doors and windows with crow-bars. The last time we made a raid my mate had to go up a
ladder and break a window, and get through that wav. He might have lost his life.
6915. Was Kearney an associate of yours ? Yes ; for some years.
8916. Was he present at any raids ? Tes.
8917. Did he sustain an injury at any of them ? No ; not at a raid.
8918. How was he injured? We were after a burglar in Lower George-street. We knew that the
robbery was planned from the roof of the house, and we kept watch for him. He came, and we chased
him along the roof of the house ; we had kept our boots on, and when we came to a slippery part of the
root Kearney lost his hold. I tried to grab him, but missed doing so, and he fell a distance of 30 feet,
breaking his leg. After pursuing the fellow some distance further I came down to Kearney, and had
him conveyed to the hospital.
8919. You found great difficulty" in getting into the gambling-houses at that time ? Yes ; it was as hard
as it would be to enter a gaol almost.
8920. You have had to make entrance to these places from the roofs and windows ? Yes.
8921. And that is attended with great danger ? Yes ; my mate had to get through the skylight on one
occasion, and carried away the gas fixings with his legs in his descent.
8922. And you think that when you find people assembled in these places the fact of there being there
when gambling is going on should be sufficient to convict them ? Yes ; imagine that we take a number
of these persons to court to-morrow. The three principals— the doorkeeper, banker and croupier, will
be disposed of right away, but the others have to be discharged, and we have to get summonses ready to
serve upon them to appear at a certain time. You cannot legally detain these people in the meantime —
they are in the yard, and can walk away. If we lay hands on them they can charge us with assault.
8923. You have to summons them after ? Yes.
8924. And m your opinion that is a roundabout proceeding ? Yes ; undoubtedly. In one case we had
thirty men in the yard of the police court, and their lawyer came and told us to let them out. We never-
theless kept them there till we served them, but we did wrong in doing so.
8925. Is there any immorality between the sexes practised in these Chinese habitations ? No ; they are
free from that.
8926. Is the sanitary condition of the places down there fairly good ? Yes ; most of them being new
houses, I think it is fairly good.
8927. In your district is there much prostitution brought about by the presence of the Chinese there ?
Not directly. I am prepared to say that of my own knowledge of the Chinese there. There are women,
tired of their lives on the streets, who go to the Chinese, and live among them for a kind of asylum, or
home.
8928. Then in your opinion, there is no connection between the Chinese gambling and any immorality
that exists in your district ? Not the slightest in the world. I am in a position to speak on that point,
because it is a part of my duty to visit these houses for the purpose of ascertaining if any immorality is
carried on there.
8929. You have been a long time in Lower G-eorge-street ; — have you ever heard of the existence of
Chinese secret societies ? I have.
8930. Did you ever hear anything with regard to the objects of the societies, or what they were ? Well,
I heard they were a kind of Guild, and I have also heard that they have a kind of Masonic order amongst
them.
8931. Did you ever hear that the object of one of these societies was to maintain a fund to defend its
members against the police ? I have heard of that, but I would not call that a society.
8932. You have heard of a combination of Chinamen for that purpose ? I have heard that there was so
much kept back from every £ of the winnings in these gambling-houses to pay the lawyers in such cases,
and I think it is the case.
8933. Did you ever hear that the money was used for the purpose of corrupting the police — making them
valuable presents ? I have heard that within the last fortnight or a- month, and I was very much
astonished, too. As it's false.
8934. It came upon you as a surprise ? Yes. I felt very uneasy, and anxious, too. I am now twenty-
five years down in that division, and I felt it very much.
8935. You read the account of the deputation that waited upon Sir Henry Parkes in relation to the
Chinese gambling question ? I read a portion of the paper, and threw it away in disgust.
8936. I suppose the police come and go in your division — that is, they are shifted from one division to
another from time to time ? Yes ; I do not suppose we have four men in the division who have seen
three years service there.
8937. The ordinary length of service in the present force is three years ? Yes ; about that. It may be
more or less.
8938. In the course of your twenty-five years' service has it ever occurred that a policeman has been
dismissed for neglecting his duty in not prosecuting the Chinese for any offence whatever ? No ; not to
my knowledge.
8939. Has any constable or police officer ever been dismissed or removed for accepting presents of any
kind from the Chinese ? I have never heard of it, and I do not think such a case has occurred.
8940. In no case has any member of the police force been dismissed for neglecting his duty in reference
to the Chinese residents in yonr district ? I never knew of a case.
8941. What was Constable Quealy dismissed for ? Drunkenness.
8942. Is it within your knowledge that the police prefer the Lower George-street division to any other
district in Sydney ? No ; it is quite the reverse.
8943. Is it within your knowledge that the ordinary constables on that beat have become possessed of
jewellery, or expensive watches and chains, that would appear to be inconsistent with their position as
wage-earners
228 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sen.-sergt. wage-earners of the class ? That would be a private matter entirely. I have heard statements made
Higgins. about (hat, but it has never come to my knowledge, nor do I believe it.
'—'A"~" "^ 8944 Is it the custom for the Chinese to make presents to their neighbours about new year's time ?
27 0ct.,1891.Tes;Ibelfeveao
8945. Have you received presents from them ? I have not.
8946. Such as a chest of tea, for instance ? I had one brought to my place by Mr. Moy Mow's son some
ten or twelve years ago. He was a merchant in Lower G-eorge-street. I think I did some slight service
to his father-in-law, and the next Christmas a little boy brought a chest of tea, and, I think, a jar of ginger
to my place. I did not accept it.
8947. What was the value of the chest of tea ? I do not know — I never bought one in my life. I may
say, sir, that from the day I joined the police to the present time I have kept my hands entirely unfettered
so far as receiving an obligation from anyone.
8948. Who was it that sent you this tea ? Mr. Moy Mow. He is now dead.
8949. Was he in any way connected with Chinese gambling ? No ; or if he was I never knew of it.
8950. Have you ever waived your duty in regard to that man or anyone else as a police officer ? Never
in my life.
8951. What was the service you say you rendered him ? I scarcely remember ; but I imagine I chased
away a number of boys who were pelting stones at the old man, or something of that kind. The old man
used to live in Harrington-street ; he died there — he was 80 or 90 years of age when he died.
8952. Was that the only case in which a present was made to you ? There was some tea left at my place
afterwards — a half-chest, and when I got home my wife asked me if I had bought any tea. I said no, and
asked her who left it. She replied that some Chinaman had brought it. I reported the matter at the
time to my superior officer.
8953. To whom did you report it — name the officer ? Mr. Atwill. He said if it was not claimed to
bring it down to the police station. I brought it down and left it there.
8954. Were those all the presents you ever received down there ? Tes.
8955. And you never received any that you did not report to your superior officer ? No.
8956. Have you brought all your personal jewellery with you ? No, sir.
8957. Tou have no diamond rings with you ? I never had one in my life.
8958. Have you got any jewellery ? No ; I have a watch and chain, and that I bought.
8959. Then the statements made by members of the deputation to the Premier about presents of jewellery
being made to the police, so far as you are concerned, were entirely without foundation ? Tes, entirely.
8960. And that is so with regard to the police generally, so far as you know ? I think so, undoubtedly.
8961. Tou have not observed any of your men becoming rich out of proportion to your salary ? No.
8962. Nowr, Sergeant Higgins, I understand you are a comparatively wealthy man ? I wish I was.
8963. But you have acquired some means ? I have a good deal of stock.
8964. What kind of stock ? 1 have nine children.
8965. Tou have some houses have you not ? Tes, I have some houses.
8966. Would you mind telling me what property you have ? It is well-known I have ten houses.
8967. Ten houses altogether ? I have also a couple of little shanties over at Lane Cove ; but you would
not call them houses.
8968. Let us first deal with the houses you have in Sydney ; — where is your property situated ? In
G-loucester-street and Playfair-street.
8969. What is the total gross rent of them ? I think about £8 per week.
8970. Out of that you have to pay the taxes, I suppose? Tes; but I am scarcely able to pay them
just now.
8971. What other property have you ? I have land over at Lane Cove.
8972. How many acres ? About 5 acres.
8973. What did these ten houses in Sydney cost you ? They cost me a good deal, some of them, and
others very little.
8974. How long have you had them ? I have had some fifteen or sixteen years, and others less than that.
I built some only a few years ago.
8975. Will you please to tell me how you acquired that property ? I bought the Playfair-street property
from Richardson and Wrench — that is the Playfair-street frontage, the land running back to Gloucester-
street, and I built two houses there, borrowing the money to do so. I may tell you that I had about
£160 when I came to No. 4 station.
8976. Tou had £160 twenty-five years ago ? Tes.
8977. And you bought some land in Playfair-street ? Tes, running back to Gloucester-street.
8978. Did you buy the land cheap ? Tes, I gave £6 a foot for the one frontage.
8979. But the land really had a double frontage ? Tes.
8980. How many houses did you build on the land ? Pive.
8981. Had you enough money of your own to build the houses ? No.
8982. Tou had to borrow the money ? Tes, all the money.
8983. Can you tell us what firm lent you the money ? The firm of Billyard & Co.
8984. I lent you the money ? Tes ; and I think, sir, you know well howl got every shilling I have almost.
8985. It is necessary that we should have it in evidence, Mr. Higgins — you say you borrowed the
money ? Tes ; I did.
8986. Did you work at the buildings yourself during your spare time ? Tes ; I worked when off duty by
candle light, and before daylight in the morning.
8987. Tou never had a charge of neglecting duty preferred against you? No ; never.
8988. The first enterprise you entered on was the building of those houses fronting Playfair-street? Tes.
8989. And after that you built in Gloucester-street ? Tes.
8990. And you borrowed the money, and gave a mortgage over the property ? I did.
8991. Is the mortgage paid off yet ? No.
8992. This land— 5 acres— you have at North Shore ;— how much per acre did you give for that ? I bought
some of that land for £200, and £90 for the remainder.
8993. What was the cost of the 5 acres ? Nearly £800.
8994. Is that unencumbered ? Tes.
8995.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MISUTES OF EVIDENCE. 220'
8995. Did you buy any property at auction for £3,000 or £4,000 within the last twelve months ? No. Sen.-sergt.
8996. Did you buy any property at all within the last twelve months ? No ; it is about fifteen months ago. Higgins.
8997. What property is that ? A piece of land at Lane Cove. o»Trr^T^i
8998. Is that part of the 5 acres you have mentioned ? Yes. 7 °ct-' 1891,
8999. And that is all the property you have got? Yes ; that is all.
9000. It is not true that you paid Eichardson and Wrench £3,000 or £4,000 for a terrace of houses ?
Certainly not. It's false.
9001. What is the age of your eldest child ? Twenty-two years this week.
9002. Has your family been assisting you in your battle of life ? They have done the best they could ;
but they are not able to do it. Most of them are little girls. I have six daughters.
9003. Is your wife alive ? She is.
9004. And all your children are at home ? Yes.
9005. You have no servant in your household ? No ; my wife has done all the work of our house, and
brought up nine children, without any servant.
9006. I suppose the value of your houses has increased considerably, seeing that you bought the land
cheap ? Yes ; in Playf air- street it has trebled in value.
9007. What is your pay now ? I receive 10s. 6d. a day.
9008. How long have you had that ? Eight years.
9009. What was your pay before that ? Nine shillings a day.
9010. Were you married before you entered the service ? No.
9011. How long after you joined was your marriage ? Five years.
9012. And I suppose you added to your savings every year ? Yes.
9013. When you commenced your building operations you had some money I suppose ? I had enough to
buy the land.
9014. You are paid for seven days in the week ? Yes.
9015. Is the house you live in your own ? It is.
9016. Where is it situated ? In Grloucester-street.
9017. It is one of a block of houses ? Yes.
9018. Mr. Abigail.'] Is it a fact that anyone can go into these gambling-houses where fan-tan is being
played — that they can obtain admission without any trouble ? It is not a fact.
9019. Is it a fact that the Chinese will not gamble with fan-tan if they get Europeans to play there ?
There are houses where they will not admit Europeans at all ; and there are houses which are patronised
exclusively by Europeans.
9020. Is it true that it was only when the police saw the Anti-Chinese League moving in a determined
manner that they determined to make a successful raid, and asked the League to assist them ? Not at
all ; we had warrants in existence at the time.
9021. Is it true that the police said they were afraid to act because the houses occupied by the Chinese
were owned by Members of Parliament and other influential citizens? I never heard it ; and if it was
said it was not true.
9022. Then any statement of that kind is opposed to the truth ? Yes.
9023. Has anybody ever spoken to you about the ownership of those properties, for the purpose of
influencing you in the discharge of your duty ? No ; no one ever did. No property-owner or anyone
else ever tried to influence me against doing my duty. I have no recollection of anything of the kind.
9024. The Mayor asked you a question as to whether members of the police force looked upon that part of
George-street as being a very good beat ? Yes.
9025. Have you never heard any member of the police say that? No ; I have always heard the reverse.
They do not like it.
9026. How is that — because of the duties they have to perform there ? Yes.
9027. Do they object on account of the association of Chinese down there ? No ; it is in consequence of
the numbers of sailors and people of that class who used to be there. Some of the police look upon them as
dangerous, although I have not found them so. When I went there first, the sergeant who transferred me
' to that station said, " G~od help you, poor fellow," meaning that 1 had come to a troublesome quarter.
9028. You also gave some evidence about selling the pak-ah-pu tickets, and I understood you to say that
the police did not consider it an unlawful pursuit ? I beg pardon. What I said was that we had no
law to reach it, as far as I knew. Personally, I think all gaming ought to be put down.
9029. The impression on your mind, and that of your superior officers, is that we have no law to reach it ?
That is our impression.
9030. Do you not know that on the 19th of March this year three Chinamen were arraigned at the
Quarter Sessions before Judge Backhouse for playing this game, and his Honor put to the jury the
question whether pak-ah-pu was an unlawful game, and the jury found that it was an unlawful game, and
the Chinamen were convicted ? I am sorry to say this is the first time I have heard of it.
9031. Then you saw nothing of another case, tried at the Central Police Court on the 21st December,
1890, before Captain Eisher, when a number of Chinese were brought up and convicted of the same
offence— that is, selling pak-ah-pu tickets ? No, sir.
9032. These two cases never came under your notice ? No ; I am afraid I must plead ignorance.
9033. You have also given some evidence about the business or trade departing from Lower George-
street ;— is not that falling off largely the result of the Chinese congregating ia that neighbourhood ?
I do not think so.
9034. Will respectable people go down there among the Chinese to make their purchases the same as they
will in other parts of the city ? I do not think they would.
9035. Do you not think that the large number of Chinese congregating as they do down there has a
tendency to lower that neighbourhood ? It has, no doubt. It is quite true ; but I think I am right in
saying that the Chinese are not the principal cause of the trade leaving that end of the town. I have
explained that the trade has left there naturally by the scattering of the shipping trade, and so on.
9036. Have you noticed those placards on the fronts of a number of the Chinese houses in Lower George-
street ? I have.
9037. Do you know what they announce ? I do not.
9038. Do you not think it is the duty of the police to make themselves acquainted with notices put up in
front of business places, more especially when such notices are in a foreign language ? It never struck
me in that light. 9039.
230' CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Sen.-sergt. 0039. Supposing I took one of these places in Lower George-street, and put up a notice over my door
Higgina. tj,at gambling was carried on there day and night, how long would you leave me there undisturbed ?
<n'irw*~'isoi ^*e"> we should stop you as soon as we could.
27 Oct., 1S»1, 90iQ ^'ould ^.ou be surprise(i to know that no less than twenty-five of these places in Lower George-
street have notices stuck up announcing that fan-tan is carried on there day and night ? I am surprised
to hear it if such is the case.
9041. Every one of these notices announce that fan-tan is carried on in those places day and night. Now
that you know that do you not think there must have been some dereliction of duty on the part of the
police in not making themselves acquainted with the meaning of those notices ere this ? "Well, perhaps
in that particular thing there might have been, but so far as trying to put a stop to this gambling is con-
cerned, and making raids, there has certainly been no dereliction of duty there ; and I think you would
say so if you knew what difficulties we have to contend against.
9042. "With reference to the suggestion you made as to the amendment of the law, I think I understood
you to say that you would make the finding of implements of gambling in a house sufficient evidence
against the owner of that house ? Tes.
9043. As a preventive measure, do you think it would be well to make the landlords of these places
responsible after due notice being given that the house was being used for gambling purposes ? I think
it would be a very good idea if due precautions were taken to prevent abuses, so that no one could take
action to gratify a private spite against a landlord.
9044. Do you think there are a number of houses carrying on gambling even now in that part of George-
street ? I do not think there is much of it now.
9045. It has been stated to this Commission that gambling is being carried on down there now, and is
just as rampant as ever, in fact ; — do you think that is correct ? No ; I do not think that is a fact.-
9046. Tou think such a statement is absolutely opposed to truth ? .Yes, I do not think it is the case, as I
have said, because within the last fortnight or three weeks we have had warrants in our hands to arrest
them, and we have failed in doing so. I think it was Saturday night week I had two warrants, and went
to the houses, and we could not find anyone there.
9047. It has been stated in evidence that there are thirty of these places in Lower George-street, and
that out of that number only five carry on any legitimate business : — do you know that ? I do not think
there are so many as thirty. There may be sixteen or eighteen.
9048. I suppose you know there are houses there where the shutters are not taken down ? I do not
think there are any houses there where the shutters are not taken down some part of the day.
9049. Look at this photograph of a little house on the right-hand side going down George-street; — do
you know that ? Tes ; it is a shanty opposite Parker's.
9050. Tou notice that the shutters are not down there P Tes ; but I have seen the shutters down.
9051. Then there are a number of houses down there that have no merchandise of any kind inside ?
That is so.
9052. Now should not that fact challenge the suspicion of the police ; — do not you think it your duty to
acquaint yourself with how people live who are carrying on without giving evidence of doing any legiti-
mate business whatever ? "We have visited these places, and found a lot of men there, and when w© ask
what they are doing there the answer is that it is a lodging-house. There are numbers of gardeners and
hawkers in the suburbs, who come into these places and occupy a bed for the night, and then go away
about their business. I make no doubt that they play fan-tan on the quiet.
9053. At the deputation to the Premier, in July last, it was stated, among other things, that the police
were not content with getting a gold watch within three months of their joining the force, but they must
have diamond rings also ; and further, that it was a well known fact that the police were paid to keep
their eyes shut to the illegal practices being carried on in Lower George-street ; — have you any knowledge
that would sustain a charge of that kind ? All I can say is, that the man who said that did not know
what he waB talking about.
9054. You have never heard anything to sustain a charge of that 'kind in the remotest way? • I only
heard of it when I heard that such a statement was made on that occasion.
9055. Did you ever hear of Inspector Atwill receiving a bribe of any kind ? No ; except that I have
heard some talk lately about some one having said in the street that he had received a present of twenty
sovereigns.
9056. Who told you that ? I cannot tell who it was ; I just heard some remarks about it.
9057. Can you not think who said it — whether it was a friend of Mr. Atwill's, a Chinaman, or a European ; —
can you not trace the statement in your mind at all ? I imagine it was Mr. Atwill himself— yes, I am
sure it was now ; I recollect.
9058. Then he had evidently heard something about it ? Tes ; he called my attention to it, I think.
He said what a cruelty it was, or something to that effect. He seemed to be very distressed in his mind.
9059. He had heard some remarks about it ? Tes ; remarks which are false.
9060. And was that the first you heard of it ? Tes. I do not believe a word of it.
9061. Did you ever hear anything about his getting furniture, or anything of that kind ? Tes ; I think
I did hear something about some furniture he bought from Ah Toy. ^
9062. Has Mr. Atwill been anxious about this Chinese business ? Tes ; he told me to do what I could
to try and get some one into these houses.
9063. Have the business people complained to you very frequently about the Chinese nuisance down
there ? Just a few of them.
9064. Have they spoken to you personally, and begged you to take action ? They have, some of them ;
but at the same time we had warrants in the station ready for when we could get an opportunity to use
them.
9065. Did you tell them you could not do anything ? No ; I do not think so. I may say we have to do
everything in connection with these raids very secretly. "We have warrants ready in the station, and
could not execute them. The difficulty is in getting into these places.
9066. Tou fear, I suppose, breaking into these places, and then not finding what you are looking for ?
"We do not do it because it would be illegal to do it without justifiable cause. I may say that we had
warrants for certain houses which have been pulled down and other houses erected in their places, and
the warrants are no good now.
9067.
CHINESE GAMBLING- COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 231
9067. You seem to have some doubt as to the attendance of Europeans at these gambling-houses. It Senr.-sergt
has been stated that they are frequented by Europeans much more than by Chinese up to all hours ? Higgins.
That is not the case. Anybody that goes along there can see that it is not the case. ' ^~^~\
9068. Do you ever visit the respectable Chinese merchants' places in Lower- George- street ? Yes; I 27 0ct> 1891*
have visited several Chinese merchants in Lower George-street.
9069. You have been in there to have a cup of tea with them ? No ; at one New Year's time, I think,
some ten or fifteen years ago, I went into Mr. On Chong's place, and I had a glass of wine there, but I
have made it a rule never to go into the Chinese houses at New Year's time.
9?70,' 1?ave J0? heard of anT Chinamen making complaints to No. 4 Station, or to the Inspector-General
of .Police, of the extent to which Chinese gambling was carried on in that locality, and being hunted
away from the place ? That is not so ; but I have knowu Chinamen to come and complain when they
have lost money themselves. That is out of spite.
9071. Would not that sustain a conviction— have you to consider whether a man has lost money or not in
that way when he complains of a breach of the law ? Well it all depends upon the man who tells you ;
we have been deceived by Chinamen.
9072. Do you mean to say a Chinaman can deceive a policeman ? Oh, yes ; I remember once one of
them came to the police station one Sunday night to tell us of some smuggling that was going on. My
mate and myself took a couple of blankets and went to the North Shore, and on to the head of Middle
Harbour, and laid there in the bush all night. At daylight we1 searched the whole place for the evidences
of smuggling that we were told we should find, but there was no more smuggled goods there than there
is on this table at the present moment ; and that same man came to the police station frequently to com-
plain about the Chinese.
9073. What do you think was the object of this man in giving you that information about the supposed
smuggling— do you think he was paid for it ? I do not know what his motive was, unless he was trying
to do a little smuggling on his own account at the same time.
9074. You think it possible that he might have wanted you out of the way in order that something else
might be done in the city ? Very likely.
9075. Have you ever known any constable down there to neglect his duty in connection with these
gambling-houses for any reason whatever ? I have not. I may say that Inspector Atwil'l does not let the
constables generally know when a raid is to be made.
9076. Have you ever heard it stated that if the police turn the Chinese out of these houses that the
owners will not be able to get respectable tenants for them, and that they would not be losers in conse-
quence ? No, I never heard any such thing in my life, but I do know that where a Chinaman has lived
in a house for years it is not very letable afterwards.
9077. Have you known the police to be dining and fraternising with the Chinamen down there? No ;
and I have not the slightest doubt that they ever have done so. I have given some of them a drink, and had
a drink in return, but I have had a motive. I might do that to the worst characters in the street.
9078. Is it not a fact that some of the police in that street are in constant communication with the pro-
prietors of the gambling-houses down there, and knowing that the law is violated the inference is that
they must be influenced in some way to shut their eyes ; — does it occur to you that that construction
might be put upon it ? No, it could not be. The men on the beat have nothing to do with the matter ; in
fact they might be told to go into the station at 9 o'clock to-night, to prepare for a raid.
9079. Is it a fact that Inspector Atwill continually neglects his duty from some cause or other ? It is
not a fact ; it is a cruel falsehood. There is not a stricter officer in the City of Sydney. I know that myself
well.
9080. Theu so far as these charges about bribery and presents of diamond rings being made to the police
are concerned, you have no evidence whatever that would sustain such a charge ? It is quite untrue. I
do not say it with any disrespect to this Commission, but it is a lie.
9081. Of course you will understand why I put these questions, Mr. Higgins. The police are on their
trial in this matter. Statements have been made by Members of Parliament and business-people in the
city, with regard to the police, of a very serious nature, and it is the duty of this Commission to investi-
gate these charges and make a report to the Government — you understand that, of course ? Yes, sir. I
am very pleased to see it investigated. I have been thirty -two years- a policeman — with the exception of
a break of eight months — and I never was reprimanded or reported in my life.
9082. Mr. Quong Tart.~] How many years have you been on duty in Lower George-street ? Twenty-five
years.
9083. During that time to what extent has gambling been carried on ? Eor some years they have been
playing a good deal amongst themselves, but I would not call that gambling.
9084. What is the principal game they play down there ? Ean-tan, and dominoes and pak-ah-pu.
9085. Do you consider pak-ah-pu a fair game, or is it a dangerous game ? I do not know sufficient of
it to explain it, but I think the gambling spirit is dangerous in every case. I have tried as far as I could
to persuade people to keep away from it.
9086. I called your attention to fan-tan and pak-ah-pu, because I want you to tell me which in your
opinion is the worst ? I think fan-tan is the worst, because it chains a man to the table all day, whereas
with pak-ah-pu a man may go and buy a ticket, and then go away about his business.
9087. Do many Europeans take part in pak-ah-pu ? Yes, a good many.
9088. Have you seen many women or girls in the Chinese places down there ? No.
9089. What class of people mostly go in to buy the pak-ah-pu tickets ? The residents of the neigh-
bourhood chiefly, and seafaring men, labourers, mechanics — men of that class.
9090. Do any respectable Europeans go in for that game ? Yes.
9091. Any merchants, or people of that class ? I have never seen any merchants. The class of people
who patronise these places most are working men, many of them strictly upright men so far as I know.
I never knew anything against their private character.
9092. Have any. Europeans or Chinese complained to you about gambling being a nuisance down there?
Some have complained, as I told you before, but they are not always to be depended upon.
9093. I mean the business people, the neighbours ? Yes, they have ; Mr. Nock has complained to me.
9094. How long ago ? Oh, we might have conversations off and on like that for a considerable time. He
might say they were a great nuisance for instance, or something of that sort.
9095.
232
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sen.-aergt. 9095. Cannot you remember how long ago it is Bince you had a conversation like that with him ? It might
lgs"19' be five or six months -perhaps.
27* Oct 1891 9096. Was there nothing more than a conversation — no noise about it ? Oh, no.
' 9097. Did he not tell you that it was not only a nuisance but was stopping the trade also ? He may
have said something to that effect in conversation. And I may say that I would be very glad to stop the
nuisance, but there are many difficulties in the way, as 1 know too well. Passers by may say, " I do not
know what the police are doing," but those who have to carry the law into effect know well enough.
9098. You say that the gambling-houses in that neighbourhood have decreased in number? Yes ; and the
number of Chinese in the district have decreased.
9099. Since when have you noticed the decrease in the number of Chinese in the district ? A number of
Chinese left that district about five years ago. We had 800 Chinese there at one time. There were three
or four cabinetmakers' shops there, and now there are only two.
9100. "What kind of a man is Ah Toy ? He is a respectable man, as far as I know.
9101. Is he a gambler ? No. I have seen him play what I should call a social game, but I would not
call that gambling.
9102. Do you know of any Chinese informers ? "We had a man down there at one time named Lee
Wood, I think, the fellow who brought me down to Middle Harbour one night. I would not believe a
word that man might say. When one of these men come to give information as they say, they may, at
the same time, be on the look-out for information themselves, and may go and tell the Chinese we are
prepared to make a raid upon them.
9103. In your opinion what is the greatest source of crime among the Chinese as a community? Fan-
tan gambling, I should say. Otherwise they are a law-abiding people. That is their principal fault, I
should say.
9104. Do you think any policeman down there has purposely overlooked the existence of any of these
gambling-houses after having it pointed out to him ? I must explain that a policeman may be told that
there is gambling going on, but all he can do in the matter is to report to the officer in charge; then he is
done with the matter, so far as he is concerned individually.
9105. I asked you the question, because it has been suggested that some of the constables down there
have overlooked their duty ; — do you believe that ? Not to my knowledge. If you go by reports, there
are few public men in Sydney in any capacity that you will not hear something about, which is probably
false, It is only idle talk.
9100. You have said that you went into one of these gambling-houses accidentally on one occasion, and
that the people there scattered as soon as they saw your face ? Yes.
9107. What place was that ? That is more than I can tell you now, but I know it is some house between
Queen's-place and Power's hotel. It is near Moy Ping's.
9108. How long is that ago ? It is within three months, I think, but I did not take much notice. We
have several duties to perform. Por instance, I and my mate had charge of twenty -four cases of burglary,
and that occupied us two months. Then there were robberies in other places to look after. It may
appear to the public that we have nothing to do but walk up and down the street, but that is not the case.
Our men have been out in Leichhardt, Burwood, and Ashfield for several months, so that gambling may
be going on in George-street for some time, then we cannot interfere with them. If there was gambling
going on there we had enough to do without that. We cannot be constantly watching the Chinamen's
places, to the neglect of the whole city. There might be gambling going on inside those places and we
would not know it.
9109. Mr. Hawthorne.] And, I suppose, if you had nothing else to do but to watch those places, it would
be impossible to keep it down entirely ? It would be impossible.
9110. In how many cases have you made raids on these gambling-houses ? About nine, I think —
successful raids.
9111. You say you have heard of a secret society that collects funds for the defence of the gamblers ? I
would not call that a secret society — it is more a defence society.
9112. What have you heard about that society ? I have heard that they keep Id. or 2d. in the £ for the
purpose of defending themselves against the police.
9113. Can you tell me who the Chinese are that collect money for this purpose ? No. I have been told
they do, but I cannot tell where they are.
9114. Do you know if any of those who have been mentioned here to-day act in that capacity ? I cannot
say. There is a general belief that money is collected for that purpose, but how true it is I cannot say.
9115. There is no certainty about it ? No.
9116. Regarding immorality among the Chinese, we have heard complaints about the Chinese decoying
young girls away from their homes, do you unow whether that is true ? I never saw or heard of it. It
has not occurred in our district — at least very seldom indeed. Years ago, before the law passed giving us
power to arrest children under age, there may have been some cases of girls frequenting these places. But
since we have had the power we have been in the habit of going through these places day and night, and
we take care not to allow anything of the kind to happen. I think some few women live amongst the
Chinese, but they have been of the unfortunate class for years.
9117. That is the last place they go to ? Yes. The Chinese treat them kindly, and they live there.
9118. Have you seen them smoke opium ? Yes.
9119. How many have you seen ? A few. 1 have seen one here and another there.
9120. Do you know whether the Chinese merchants — the respectable Chinese— have endeavoured to put
down the evil ? I know they would rather the gambling were done away. '
9121. Can you give the Commission the names of a few respectable Chinese down there? I know On
Chong, Way Kee, Ung Quong, Tin War, and others.
9122. Can you suggest a means of putting down this evil, the gambling? Well, I think the law should
be made more clear, and the powers of the police should be extended.
9123. Mr. McKillop.'] You have been acquainted with Constable Adair for a number of vears, Mr.
Higgins, have you not ? Yes. I took him at my own request as a plain clothes constable.
9124. He is a good man ? Yes ; there is no better anywhere.
9125. A man of high character ? Yes ; he is ~nost trustworthy.
9126. You are in constant communication with him, are you not ? Yes, both day and night, we are on
duty together. 9^27
CHINESE GAM31IN& COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 233
9127. Now, supposing you got some efficient constables from the suburban districts, and arranged your Sen.-sergt.
raids in Lower George-street, independently of tbe local men, who are known there, do you not think you ' H'SS"18-
would have a better chance of being successful ? Quite so. They would not be known, and would be in jf^t^TZ,
disguise. Z1 °ct-> 1891#
9128. Would you be in favour of recommending that course if your opinion were asked by your superior
officer ? Tes, most undoubtedly.
9129. That is the only way in fact that you can make successful raids ? That is so.
9130. Do you know of any heavy losses being sustained by persons playing fan-tan down there? I have
heard of men losing money there, but I do not know that I heard any amount mentioned. I may have heard
such a thing as a man losing his week's wages.
9131. You never heard of any heavier losses than that ? Well, I did hear of a sea captain losing a lot
of money there one time, but it may have been false.
9132. Did you hear of a stevedore that lost £1,000 or £1,500 on one occasion, the man that was committed
for manslaughter ? I never heard of it, and I do not think any of them that goes there can afford to lose
that amount.
9133. Have you known of any big wins being made at any time ? One man told me that he made £50 at
one sweep ; but he went in again and lost more.
9134. Would you be surprised to hear that a clergyman of long-standing in the district has given evidence
to the effect that the immorality in some of these Chinese dens was very gross indeed ? Well I do not
know what he may say in the matter. All I can say is this, that it has never come within my knowledge,
and I do not think he could have a greater knowledge of these places than I have. There is no clergyman
in Australia but I have visited these places ten times to his once.
9135. You have greater power to enter these places ? Yes. I have never met three clergymen in my
time going through these places.
9136. Have you had any conversation with any of your comrades in the force relative to the inquiry being
conducted by this Commission ? Yes.
9137. Eecently? Yes.
9138. What was it — a general conversation? Yes, merely a general conversation.
9139. Do you remember the Commission paying a visit to Lower George-street some weeks ago ? Yes, I
saw them.
9140. Did you know of their intended visit previous to their making their appearance on the scene? No ;
I saw Mr. Atwill hastening up the street, and the only ones I knew in the crowd were Mr. Manning and
Mr. Abigail.
9141. Did you hear it spoken of by the other constables in the station before the Commission arrived ?
No ; they did not know of it.
9142. You say there are frequent changes in the personnel of the force in your district ? Yes ; very
frequent.
9143. Is it possible, do you think, that you have some traitors among the police? Well that I cannot
say ; but they are simply human nature, like other men.
9144. You have said in your evidence that when these raids have been arranged a knowledge of them has
leaked out, however discreet you may have been ? Yes ; they have leaked out certainly. As I have told
you, it has come to my knowledge that Europeans have been employed to watch the station, and it may
be that they have given the information. I know three such.
9145. Do you object to mention their names. I think it is necessary to have them ? I think not.
9146. We are here for a specific purpose, and that is to see whether the law has been put into effect in this
matter, and to suggest any amendments that may appear to be necessary in the interests of the community,
and we must of necessity have the names of these men ? Well, I heard that a man named Scott was so
employed, and another named, or rather known as 'Possum ; but I never saw them get the money.
9147. You only know it from hearsay ? Yes ; it may be false or true.
9148. Do you know of your own personal knowledge that some of these gambling-house keepers have
shipped large sums of money home to China ? No ; I would not have any chance of knowing that.
9149. Have you entered these places in your official capacity along with Constable Adair, when the lights
have been put out, and a general scrimmage has taken place ? Well that might be so ; and I will tell
you how it might occur : Sometimes we might happen to see some youngsters in there and go in to rush
them out to the street, and that might be the cause of a stampede. I believe it has been. On such
occasions we have heard a lot of running about on the stairs.
9150. I suppose you have always accompanied Adair to these places. Has he ever gone in there by
himself? He might have done so, but, as a rule, he does not.
9151. You are never far away ? No; and if anything occurs when we are apart we inform one
another when we meet.
9L52. You have stated that a large number of Chinese have left that portion of the city ? Yes.
9153. Do you think it likely that such a large number of Chinese leaving has caused the gambling-house
keepers to offer special inducements to Europeans to patronise those establishments ? No ; I do not
think there is much European gambling going on down there at all. The fewer the houses occupied by
Chinese the less gambling goes on.
9154. You have no hesitation in saying that you have never accepted a present in money or kind from
anyone down there ? No ; I have never received a present, either from a Chinaman or a white man in
my life.
9155. Mr. Hawthorne.] If anyone has made the statement that you purchased £4,000 worth of property
some eighteen months ago, that is untrue? It is false.
9156. Did you purchase any property during the last two years ? I did ; I purchased 2i acres of land
in Lane Cove.
9157. How much did you pay for that land ? £200.
9158. You have not purchased any other property during that time ;— you are quite positive ? Quite
positive ; I have not had the money.
9159. Then the statement is not true ? It is a falsehood.
9160. You had to draw on your other property, I suppose, to purchase that ? Yes. I have never been
able to purchase any property but what I have had to mortgage other property to get it.
272-2 G 9161.
234 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sen.-sergt. 9161. Tou Have never obtained any of your property in any improper way ? Certainly not. I have paid
Higgins. for jt ou{. 0f mj gavings. I should say that I have received rewards in connection with my police duty.
■oiTrw^iooi 9163. Your rise in life was obtained through purchasing property cheap which has now become valuable ?
27 Oct., 1891. Tes . j did that ftt Aghfield at 0De time_
9163. Tour fortune, whatever it may be, has been the result of hard work on your part, together with
fortunate circumstances, such as the rise in value of the property you have purchased ? Tes ; but
particularly by my own hard work. I have quarried down rocks and worked by candlelight, as I have
said, to improve my position. I have worked in that way during my spare time for months together.
9164. And you were living rent free, I think you said, during a great part of the time you were building
up in this way ? Tes ; 1 was living rent free for eleven years, and the money I got in the shape of rent
wont to pay off the mortgage.
9165. And during the whole of the time you have been in the force you have never had anything reported
against your character ? No ; I was never reprimanded or admonished in my life.
9166. Tou never heard that Inspector Atwill, during the time you served nnder him, accepted a bribe of
any kind whatever ? No ; and I may say that unless I saw it 1 would not believe it. He is the wrong
man to do such a thing.
9167. Inspector Atwill has a large family, has he not ? Tes ; but he has been more fortunate than me ;
he married into a rich family, and got property through that.
[The witness withdrew.]
WEDNESDAY, 28 OCTOBER, 1891.
Sprmni: —
The Mayor op Sydney (Me. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., Vice-President.
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG- TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Hugh Adair called in and examined : —
Mr.H. Adair. 9168. President.'] What are you, Mr. Adair? A senior-constable in the Metropolitan Police Eorce.
s-~~~k~ — N 9169. Where are you stationed ? At No. 4 Station, Lower George-street.
28 Oct., 1891. 9170. How lOng have you been a policeman in that district ? It is twelve years this month since I was
appointed to that station.
9171. How long have you been in the police force altogether ? About twelve years.
9172. Then the whole of the time you have been in the police force you have been down in Lower
George-street ? I have been attached to No. 4 Station.
9173. Mr. McKillop^\ Mr. Adair, do you remember ever having a conversation with Mr. Nolan about the
large amount of gambling that is carried on in Lower George-street — Nolan is employed by the firm of
Pelton and Nock — he is a salesman in their Lower George-street shop ? I never had any conversation
with Mr. Nolan in my life — that is, with the man at Nock's.
9174. He did not say to you, " How is it that this gambling cannot be put down ? " and you replied,
" Oh, well, I cannot help it. If police officers will go bumming round there all day long it is not my
fault? " I never said anything of the sort to the gentleman, and if he says I did it is a falsehood.
9175. It is untrue? It is untrue.
9176. Tou know that there are a number of gambling-dens down there ? Tes ; there are a good many ;
but some of them are described as not being really gambling-dens.
9177. Can you give the Commission the number to the best of your knowledge ? Well, to the best of
my belief, I think there are between sixteen and seventeen — that is, sixteen or seventeen places where
gambling is carried on.
9178. Are they all frequented by Europeans ? No ; they are not.
917-9. What is the number that Europeans are generally in the habit of frequenting ? Well there are
about four there in the other terrace. That is near the " American Exchange " Hotel, abreast of No. 2
Coffee Palace, and there is one down below, next to Foster, the pawnbroker's. There are about five
altogether, I should say.
9180. Five to the best of your knowledge ? To the best of my knowledge.
9181. Do they carry on any work there ? Well we cannot see it.
9182. Have you at any time, in the course of your official duties, witnessed a good many Europeans going
in and out ? I have seen a good number going in and out to buy pak-ah-pu tickets.
9183. But you would not swear that they went in to play fan-tan ? I would not, because there are some
houses in which they would not be allowed to play unless the proprietors knew them.
9184. Are the gambling-dens on the increase? During my time they have decreased. There might be
morein Lower George-street, but when I joined the force they were in Queen-street and Anson's
buildings, and they are all done away with there now. There may be a few more in Lower George-street —
about three more.
9185. Then they have decreased in Anson's buildings but increased in Lower George-street ? Tes ;
there may be two or three more in Lower George-street.
9186. Do you know the class of men who visit those places? All classes go there.
9187. Any of the labouring classes ? Tes ; the coal-lumpers are the worst. There are ,some wharf
labourers and the coolies from the ships.
9188. Do men of respectable appearance frequent the place ? Well, there are some men who seem to be
respectable ; they have a good suit of clothes on their backs, but we cannot say anything as to their
character.
9189. How is it that the coal-lumpers go there so much ; — is it that they make better money than the
others ? Well, I speak of them particularly, because I know most of them.
9190. Do you think it is because they make more money than men in other avocations ? Well, they used
to make good money, but they have not been doing; so of late years.
9191. Whose is the chief gambling-den in Lower George-street ? That would be hard to say.
9192. Tou do not know of your own knowledge ? No. 9193.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 235
9193. Have you been in the habit of entering these gambling-dens by virtue of your office ? Yes ; some- Mr. H. Adair,
times looking for witnesses in cases, and sometimes for the thieves who frequent them. <— — A— — n
9194. Are criminals in the habit of secreting themselves there ? A good many are. 28 0oi'> 189l»-
9195. Have you ever noticed, during your visits to these places, that Europeans have been playing fan-
tan at the tables whilst you have been inside ? .No ; I have never seen any in of late years.
9196. Did you some years ago ? Some years ago you might see them, but not of late years — not since we
made the raid about four years ago.
9197. Is it because you are so well known in the district now ? Well, we are all pretty well known to
them. There is generally a look-out man about the doors.
9198. Did you, some three or four years ago, enter a gambling-house when a scrimmage took place and
the light was turned out ? I may say that I have been in every gambling-house raid that has been made.
On account of my being a seaman at one time I am a pretty good climber, and I have made an arrange-
ment myself, what I call a Jacob's ladder, for getting over fences 24 or 25 feet high. I catch it on the
fence and get down into the places through them. .
9199. Did you at any time, in making a raid, scramble for the money that was on the table ? No ; I do
not think I did.
9200. Tou are sure that at no time, when gambling was going on, and when there were Chinese and
Europeans together, did you lean over the banker's shoulder and take a certain amount of money that
was on the table ? I did in one instance. It was when a raid was made at the Kang Too Club. I think
that I got £13 on that occasion.
9201. Were there any Europeans present ? No ; there were no Europeans frequenting that place. It
was kept as a club, and at the Water Police Court, where the case was tried, it was sworn that each
member had to pay £2 to join it. They bested us on that occasion.
9202. Then, if any one has stated that about six years ago you put your hand over the banker's head and
seized as much silver as you could lay your hand on, would that be true or false ? It would be false,
because I generally entered the place from the top, and I had no occasion to be near the banker or the
croupier.
9203. On the occasion to which you refer did you enter through the proper channel ? I never entered
through the proper channel at any raid.
9204. Did you at any other time than a raid, at any time when you have been seeking witnesses or
thieves ? I have always, on those occasions, entered through the front door. We are always admitted
on those occasions.
9205. Have you ever on those occasions seen gambling in full swing ? No ; I have not, because they
throw all the doors open on those occasions and let us go in and get whoever we want.
9206. Did you hand that £13 to your superior officer ? Tes ; I handed it to Mr. A twill. There was
more than £13, because there were some shillings and 2s. -pieces on the table.
9207. Have you ever seen any children in those places ? Well, in Harrington-street I have seen a few
youngsters, not big, but pretty well on in years, 16 or 17 years old — dwarfs I call them.
9208. Tou have never seen any children of tender years going in for pak-ah-pu tickets ? No ; I have
never seen any children going into those places. I can give you the names of the four boys I refer to if
you want me to.
9209. I think it would be just as well for you to do so, and the shorthand-writer need not take them
down? (Witness gave the names accordingly), and added: They are all about from 16 to 18 years of
age. On one occasion I arrested one for breaking a window. That is how I know them so well.
9210. Are you possessed of any means, Mr. Adair ? Well, I have got a few little bits of ground.
9211. Tou have some ground ? Tes ; I have two allotments at Eookwood to my sorrow, and one in
Queensland.
9212. Not in the Rookwood Cemetry ? Tes ; in the cemetery.
9213. And one 'in Queensland ? Tes ; where I buried a brother.
9214. That is the only land that you possess ? It is the only property that I possess.
9215. I hope you do not think we are asking these questions to hurt your feelings ; — we are asking them
in justice to yourself, on account of the accusations that have been made ; — have you any large sums of
money in the bank ? I have no money.
9216. Tou are a married man, are you not ? I am.
9217. And you have a family? Tes.
9218. With the amount you receive as salary for your services it takes you all your time to keep your
family respectable ? Tes ; my pay is 8s. lOd. a day.
9219. And that is barely sufficient to keep yourself and family in a respectable condition ; — how many
children have you ? I have got four, and one dead, and two orphans I fetched out from England,
belonging to my wife's brother.
9220. That is seven children you have ? Well, I have six, as my brother-in-law in Melbourne took one of
them. My wife gets a little money out from home, about £19 a year. It is a little property that was left
her.
9221. Then you receive no other money from any other source but your wages? That is all that I have
had ever since I have been in the police force, except rewards.
9222. Tou are always in company with Sergeant Higgins, are you not ? Most of the time, except that I
may go to the suburbs on some inquiry or other.
9223. And with those exceptions you are always on duty together, day and night ? I have been on duty
with him for the last five years.
9224. Tou have had every opportunity of knowing Sergeant Higgins for a considerable time ? I have.
I do not think there is anybody in Sydney who knows him better than me.
9225. Tou have always found him to be a most upright, honest, and straightforward man ? There is not
a more straightforward, honorable, upright man in New South Wales. He has got a few enemies down
there the same as I have.
9226. Did you at any time ask any shopkeeper in Lower George-street when you were going to make a
raid for the loan of a crow-bar ? I did not.
9227. Did Sergeant Higgins ? I do not know what he did. I was in there the night that they made the
last raid. I had my own bar, and I did not require a bar for the place that I entered from. I went
through the front window. 9228.
236 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION' — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. H.Adair. 9228. That is over the verandah ; — you ran along the verandah and smashed the window ? I had a small
^™*-*-^\ ladder.
28 Oct., 1891. 9229. How many raids have been made during the last four or five years ? To the best of my belief thoro
have been about ten.
9230. Were you successful in all ? "We were successful in all but one, and I was not present at that one.
It was made by Senior-constable Wright.
9231. Tou got convictions in nine? Yes ; I think so.
9232. What were the fines, to the best of your recollection ? Well, the principals were fined £25 or £30,
I think, and the people in the gambling-house were fined £1 and costs, except in the case of the last raid,
and they were fined £2 and costs.
9233. Who organises these raids ? The ofilcer-in-charge.
9234. The sub-inspector in charge of the district ? Tes.
9235. During the time that you have been down in the district have you noticed bills similar to those
[shown to witness'] stuck up at the doors of the various Chinese shops ? There are Chinese characters
stuck up at the doors, but it would be hard for us to understand them.
9236. Tou never made it your business to inquire what they were ? Well, I have asked sometimes about
them.
9237. Did you ever get a satisfactory answer ? Well, I think a Chinaman told me on one occasion that
it was about some meeting that was going to be held amongst the Chinamen.
9238. But it is possible for you or your superior officer to get the true interpretation of what the bills
mean, is it not ; — there is a Chinese G-overnment interpreter ? Well, we do not know what these things
mean unless we are told by the Chinamen who place them there.
9239. Have you not got a Chinese interpreter at your command ? He is paid by the Government, and
when we want him for anything he is paid so much a case.
9240. Would it not have been quite possible to have come round and got the Chinese interpreter to have
come round and interpreted the meaning of these placards ? I do not know that it would. Who is
going to pay him ?
9241. Well, if the police employed him the G-overnment would have to pay him ? No doubt we could
have got him if we had thought there was anything in it.
9242. Was not the sub-inspector of your district authorised lately to go round and say what the posters
were about ? I did not hear anything about it.
9243. Have you noticed that a large number of these notices have been washed off the doors and walls
where they have been posted up ? No ; I have not.
9244. Do you know what the notices mean ? I do not.
9245. Well, they mean that gambling (fan-tan) is carried on there day and night. Do you not think
that if a European had had such notices up in English the police would not have taken action against
him for keeping a common gaming-house ? Well, if they had known that it was a gaming-house they
would have been bound to have taken action.
9246. Is it very difficult to get into these gambling-dens ? Yes, it is.
9247. Is it because they have a great number of outlets ? There are not a great number of outlets if
they open the doors, but it is the way the places are barricaded against the police.
9248. In one of the raids you made you came in through the skylight, did you not ? In several of the
raids I came in through the skylight.
9249. And in making these raids did you ever endanger your life ? Well, some might call it endangering
my life, but it is nothing to me, because I know how to get round.
9250. Is it not often dangerous to get into these places as you have to do ? Well, I have been three
nights getting into places where I could not get others to follow me.
9251. But is there any danger attached to it ? Well, for some people it would be, but I would not call
it dangerous to get down from this ceiling to the table if I had got my gear to lower myself down with.
9252. President.] But Mr. McKillop means — is there no danger from the Chinamen? Oh, no ; I do not
think so. They only fight to make their escape.
9253. Mr. McKillop.'] None have ever threatened you with iron crow-bars, have they ? No ; a few have
threatened me, but there is nothing in it.
9254. Are there a great many prostitutes down there ? We have got very few prostitutes living in the
district. There are a few come from different parts of the city at 9 or 10 o'clock at night. They come
mostly after the seamen and men-of-war's men.
9255. Have you noticed in any of your visits any young girls who have been decoyed by the Chinamen
down there ? Well, I do not think that the Chinese decoy any young girls. They often come to the
police-station complaining of the girls.
9256. In what way do they complain ? Well, there is one Chinaman comes. They may be jealous-minded
of one another. He may have got no girl himself, and the other may have a girl, and he may want her
turned out.
9257. That is only jealousy ? I call it jealousy.
9258. Do you consider that the laws existing at present are stringent enough to check the gambling evil ?
That I cannot say.
9259. Have you given it any thought at all ? Well, they might give the police a little more power in
some cases.
9260. At the present time you have to procure a warrant ? There has to be an information laid in
reference to the house, that we know it to be a gambling-house, and the warrant gives the number of the
house, and the street in which it is situated.
9261. But you must be armed with the warrant before you can proceed ? Yes ; or else what good would
it be, because the conviction would fall through.
9262. Seeing that you have got so much trouble in entering these places, would you consider that if the
law permitted you to enter the houses where you thought that gambling was going on without a warrant,
it would enable you to cheek the evil ? Well, if we get in we must see the game being played before we
can convict anyone, or else the case will fall through when the lawyers take their objections.
9263. Are you of opinion that, in the event of any gambling tools being found on the premises, the
keeper of the house ought to be indicted for keeping a common gaming-house ? Well, there is not many
gambling
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 23-7
gambling implements there. There is only a table and some chairs, and the coins, and the croupier's sticks S&". H. Adais.
9264. But do you not think that if these things are found on any premises, that fact alone ought to lead 0/^T~^-^'
to a conviction ? I do not know. It would not stand in the Court. 28 0ot,> 1891'
9265. What is your opinion of the landlords of these places where gambling is carried on ? Well, I
cannot say. The landlords, I suppose, like to get as much for their places as possible.
9266. Do you think it would be a good thing to hold the landlords responsible ? Yes. If the Chinese
gambling laws were altered, I think it would be a good thing to hold the landlords responsible after giving
them due notice.
9267. Did you at any time receive any presents ? No ; never in my life whilst I have been in the force.
9268. No diamond rings or gold watches ? No diamond rings or gold watches.
9269. No chests of tea nor jars of ginger ? No ; nothing at all.
9270. You have never received any presents from a Chinaman ? Yes ; I have received a present from a
Chinaman — from the Chinese steward of a ship, the captain of which was a school-mate of mine, and a
chum of mine at home. It was the ship, " Bay of Cadiz." That is the only present that I have received.
9271. Was it the steward or the captaiu who made you that present? It was the captain's wife who
presented me with it.
9272. But it was the steward who was the Chinaman ? Yes ; he was the steward employed on board
ship, and he was sent with it to me.
9273. _ Well, then, that was not a present from a Chinaman at all — the Chinaman only acted as the porter ?
That is the only present that I have received.
9274. Do you know whether any of your comrades in the force have received any presents ? I never
heard so.
9275. This gambling that is carried on in Lower G-eorge-street has been the means of bringing about a
great deal of destitution amongst the families of those working-men who frequent the dens, has it not ?
Well, it might have done, because I know there are some of them who spend nearly the whole of their
earnings there. Several women have complained to me about it.
9276. Their wives have complained to you personally ? Yes ; there is a lady called Mrs. , who
has complained to me on several occasions, and who went to Mr. Atwill on one occasion with a child in
her arms.
9277. And you are of opinion that if this evil was stamped out it would be the means of bringing about
a better state of affairs amongst the class who frequent the gambling-dens? Well, there are some who
frequent them who do not care for much hard work at all. I do not think they would take work if they
got it.
9278. Do they live on the game ? They live on their wits or what they borrow from others, and pay
nobody back.
9279. Do you know of any large sums lost there ? Well, I daresay some men lose their week's wages.
9280. Do you know of larger sums than that being lost ? Well, I think the captain of a ship complained
of losing £30 or £40. That was the largest sum — as far as I refaember — that I ever heard of being
lost.
9281. Do you remember a stevedore who was committed some time ago for manslaughter losing £1,500
down there ? Not the man , was it ?
9282. I do not know what his name is ? I think it must be the man if he was committed for man-
slaughter.
9283. Did he ever lose £1,500 ? No, I do not think he was ever possessed of that much because he used
to keep a sailor's boarding-house in Eager-street, off Kent-street.
9284. Used he to frequent those gaming-places ? Yes.
9285. To a pretty large extent ? Yes, he used to frequent them pretty often. I have turned him out of
them several times.
9286. Do you know whether these gamblers live on the premises or do they live anywhere in the vicinity
of the Rocks ? I cannot say about all, but in most of these places there are a good number of Chinamen
living on the premises.
9287. Are there any of them living in Harrington-street ? Yes.
9288. Do they keep European women ? Yes ; and there are a good many of them married to European
women.
9289. Have you ever seen any disgraceful scenes where they are living with these women ? I have not
seen any disgraceful scenes such as those described in the morning papers, although I am living in the
midst of it all. 1 live in Harrington-street myself.
9290. I suppose it is very difficult to make a successful raid on these places ? Well, sometimes it is, but
at other times if you have got a friend who can assist you you can get in easily.
9291. Would it not be better in organising these raids to get men from the suburbs than to employ men
from your own beat ? I do not think we ever made a raid but what we had a strange constable — some-
times four or five — but we cannot get them in.
9292. Is it a fact that the secret that these raids are going to be made gets out before they are made ?
Well I have heard the secret myself, but I do not think many could because they would not know that
the officer in charge had received a warrant. Sergeant Higgins might know, because he was well up in
the force.
9293. But I am speaking of the public ? No, I do not see how they could know anything about it,
because I have gone up to the station and been told of a raid when I have known nothing at all about it ;
and then we have had to come in the back way.
9294. Has the business decreased among the European shop-keepers in Lower G-eorge-street, owing to the
large number of gambling-dens down there ? I do not think it has much.
9295. Are there the same number of Europeans carrying on business there now as there were five years
ago ?' No, I do not think so, because the A.'IT.S.N. Co. has removed its office from that end of the town,
and they employed 300 or 400 men. That kept up that part of the town very well, because all those men
used to get their tucker down there. They lived in the suburbs, many of them.
9296. Then you think that the fact that the A.U.S.N. Co. has removed to Sussex-street has helped to take
the trade away from that end of the town ? Yes, partly, and there were a number of steamships that
used to lie round the Circular Quay that now lie up Darling Harbour.
9297.
238 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. H. Adair. 9297. And you think that accounts for the falling off of trade in Lower George-street ? Tes.
>— -A— -s 9298. Do you know what the rents are there now ? Well, I know them to be pretty good rents. There
28 Oct., 1891. was a pawnbroker who told me that he paid £5 or £6 a week.
9299. Do the Chinese pay higher rents than the Europeans, owing to the fact that they carry on an
illegitimate business bearing large profits ? Well, I am not aware of it.
9300. Do you know any members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Well, I have heard that there
are several people belonging to it.
9301. Do you know any of them personally ? Tes, I do.
9302. Do you know Mr. Jack Armstrong ? I do.
9303. Is he a man of good character ? Well, I cannot say myself.
9304. Tou know nothing against him ? I have heard some curious things.
9305. But do you know anything as a positive fact against him ? No.
9306. Do you know Mr. Kelly the grocer ? Well, I have spoken to him on two or three occasions. He
came to me one time about a warrant.
9307. You have known him to be a respectable man since he has been residing in your district? Well, I
know nothing against him.
9308. Do you know anything against any of the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? No.
9309. Do you know Mr. Dawson personally ? I believe that there is a man of that name lives near the
old Quay.
9310. Is he a respectable man ? As far as I know he is.
9311. Have you read any of the newspaper reports about the doings of the Anti-Chinese Gambling
League, or this Commission ? I never looked at a newspaper report since the affair was started.
9312. But do you remember a deputation from the League waiting upon Sir Henry Parkes ? Tes, I
heard the officer-in-charge read out the report of the deputation from the daily papers, I think it was to
Sergeant Higgins and myself.
9313. Who was the officer to whom you refer ? Mr. A twill.
9314. Do you think there is any truth in the charges reported to have been made by the deputation
against members of the police force ? No, I do not think there is a single word of truth in them.
9315. Have you any idea as to who supplied the information to the four Members of Parliament for West
Sydney who addressed the Premier on that occasion ? I cannot say where they got their information.
9316. Do you know any of the Members of Parliament for West Sydney personally ? I know two of
them well. I know that Mr. Kelly is as respectable as any man who stands in Sydney — that is Andy
Kelly, and I know Mr. T. M. Davis too. The other two members I do not know.
9317. Mr. Abigail.'] You do not know Mr. Black or Mr. FitzGerald ? No, I do not know them at all,
but the other two men I have known for years.
9318. Mr. McEillop.] Was it from their personal observation that they spoke on that occasion, or from
information supplied to them ? Well, I fancy it was from information given to them by a certain class of
persons down there. They could not have gone and spoken it on their own account. They must have
got it from somebody.
9319. Have the charges made against the police caused a great deal of conversation amongst members of
the force down there ? I daresay some felt it, but personally I paid no more attention to the charges
than I should to a lump of dirt stuck to my foot.
9320. Was that because you felt yourself guilty or innocent ? It was because I was not afraid of any
man in New South Wales. I said to some of the men in the police force that they ought to be ashamed
of being seen speaking to some of the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League.
9321. And you have had no conversation with any of them ? No, not with any of them except Mr. Nolan
who told me that Mr. Nock had gone up, and I said to him that I did not care who went up.
9322. Was that all the conversation that you had with him ? Yes, and then I followed a man whom I had
been watching on the other side of the street.
9323. Do you know Mr. Nock ? Yes.
9324. How long has he been in Lower George-street ? Well, he was there before me.
9325. You know nothing against him ? No, nothing, I only know that he is a partner in the firm of
Pel ton and Nock.
9326. Did he work himself up to that position ? I dare say he did. He has always been a respectable
man since I have known him.
9327. Do you know any of the respectable Chinese residents down in Lower George-street ; — are there
any respectable ones ? Yes, there are some of them that are more respectable than some of the Europeans.
9328. Can you give us their names ? I do not know the names of many of them. There is one called
Sun Hing Jaig ; and there is old Way Kee and his relations there. They are a most respectable family.
9329. Do you ever go into Way Kee's to see if you can find any stolen property in his place ? Yes ; on
many occasions I have been there for that purpose, and on many occasions he has sent to the police to
inform them of things which he had his suspicions about, and he always sends to Sergeant Higgins and
myself.
9330. Therefore he has materially assisted the police ? Yes, materially in the discharge of their duty.
He buys old brass and copper.
9331. Mr. Abigail.'] Before you pass away from that matter, tell me whether you have ever heard that
any member of the police has ever received money from Way Kee to pass over any stolen property ? No,
I have not ; I do not think he is a man of that kind.
9332. Then if a witness has made the statement that the police are bribed by Way Kee to pass him over
when he has stolen property in his possession that would be inaccurate ? It would be a falsehood. I have
waited there hours myself, at his invitation, to see whether thieves would come back for goods. On those
occasions I have been concealed on his premises.
9333. Then he has kept the goods and not paid for them ? Yes, he has told them that he would have to
get the money from the bank, and on many occasions I have been sent for, and once I was concealed in
the house for three hours to see whether the man would come back. He did come, and he got two years.
9334. Mr. McKillop.] What has became of the stolen property in those cases ? Well, it was produced
in the police court at the time the case came on, and if it was old lead, and was not claimed, it always went
to the Superintendent's office.
9335.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 239
9335. Ton do not know what became of it in the end? I believe there is a yearly auction sale of un- Mr- H. Adair.
claimed property at the Inspector-General's office. f ~K^~-^
9336. Mr. Abigail.'] None of it has ever been left with Way Kee? None, to my knowledge. 28 Oot-' 1891,
9337. Mr. McKillop.~] Do you know of any cases in which any of the police officers whatever have
received any presents ? Yes; ex-Sergeant Dawson, after he was pensioned off, had a gold watch and
diamond ring given to him.
9338. "Were you at any time invited by any Chinese residents to partake of oyster suppers ? I may say
that I have never tasted an oyster in my life, although I was reared on the sea-shore.
9339. Have you ever had any oyster suppers in Sydney ? Oh, my mate, Sergeant Higgins, has sometimes
had a plate of oysters and I have had a plate of fish with him at that shop in Hunter-street.
9340. But never with the Chinese ? No.
3341. You know Senior-constable Beadman? Yes.
9342. He was presented with a gold watch on one occasion ? I know that in Balmain he was presented
with a watch by some gentlemen for rescuing a boy who had fallen of£ the ferry-boat.
9343. He seems to be rather fond of jewellery, is he not ? He seems to have a taste for it. Tor my part
I would not wear jewellery.
9344. Do you know anything about a diamond ring that he wears ? "Well, I think he does wear a diamond
ring.
9345. He is a strightforward man? Yes, he and his mate too are straightforward men.
9346. Mr. Abigail.'] You have been a long time in that district ? It is twelve years this month since I
went there.
9347. You have a thorough knowledge of what takes place in the Chinese gambling-dens ? Yes.
9348. You have been particularly instructed to pay attention to what goes on there ? Yes ; especially
during the last five years, since I have been in plain clothes — more so than a constable in uniform.
9349. During that time you have seen a wonderful increase in the number of Chinese gambling-dens, have
you not ? Increase ! I have seen a considerable decrease.
9350. Have you not seen a large increase among the Chinese gambling-dens in that part of the town ?
No, it is not near as bad as it was some years ago.
9351. Now, if a number of business men down in Lower George-street have said that the evil is worse
than it was, and is getting worse and worse, that would be untrue, would it ? Yes.
9352. How many gambling places would there be now in Lower George-street ? Before the inquiry
commenced there would be sixteen or seventeen, but since this Commission began its work there would be
fewer, because some of them have shut up.
9353. Oh, they have ; do you believe that there were thirty-three before the inquiry began ? No ;
there were not so many.
9354. And are they mostly frequented by whites ? "Well, there are four or five frequented by whites,
but they are in Queen's-place.
9355. "Who is the owner of that property ? That I cannot say.
9356. Is that the terrace where Moy Ping's place is ? Yes.
9357. Were you in the raid at Moy Ping's ? Yes ; I happened to be the man who went in through £he
window. '
9358. They were mostly Europeans there, were they not? There were forty Europeans and eight
Chinamen.
9359. Is not the proportion in most of the places five or sis Europeans to one Chinaman ? There might
be five or six, or there might only be two or three Europeans to one Chinaman. On Saturday nights
there are always more Europeans than on any other evening, because it is pay-day.
9360. Have you ever seen as many as 500 Europeans turned out of these Chinese gambling-dens between
Eelfcon and Nock's shop and Argyle-street ? Never in my life.
9361. Could such a thing occur without the police being aware of it ? No ; I am sure it could not. There
was one night when Sergeant Higgins and myself turned out a lot of Europeans buying pak-ah-pu
tickets. There were eighteen in Moy Ping's place, and three or four in several of the other places.
9362. Were there 250 altogether ? There were not : but people came over from the other side of the
street to see what was the matter, and of course there was a crowd then.
9363. Do you know at what hours of the night the most gambling is carried on ? Between 8 and
9 at night, and after half-past 10 o'clock there is no playing till the next day, I am sure.
9364. Then if a statement has been made to the Commission that the gambling is as bad now as ever,
Sundays included, would that be correct ? It would not.
9365. Have you ever heard the charge that the police on that beat connive at the gambling ? I have
heard it through the Press, but never up to that time.
9366. Did no business people ever stick you up when you have been walking about the street and com-
plain that you did not stop the gambling ? There may have been some people stopped me, but I cannot
recollect it.
9367. Is it not a fact that business people frequently stop the police — the private clothes men particularly —
in the street and complain of the gambling evil, and ask them why they do not stop it ? I cannot say
about the other men, but I can say that there are very few who know that I am a constable. Coal-
lumpers and wharf labourers and sailors know me, but not people from the other end of the town.
9368. Have you ever said that you were afraid of performing your duty because the owners of these
places are members of Parliament? I am not afraid of anybody. Would it frighten a policeman
from doing his duty because the owners of the places were Members of Parliament ?
9369. Well, I am simply asking the question ? Well, it would not frighten me.
9370. And you have never been told by any resident down there that you connive at this evil ? No ; I
do not think so.
9371. Have you never been stopped in the street and asked, " Do you not think it is a mistake that this
evil should be allowed to go on ?" I think I was stopped on one occasion by Mr. Swinnburn, the boot-
maker down there, and told that it was getting rather bad. I said that we were trying to get into them as
well as we could.
9372. But none of the residents of Lower George-street have erer gone to the station and offered to give
you assistance to get into the place ? No ; not to my knowledge. Of course they may have been to
Mr. Atwill, but if they have I know nothing about it.
9373. But they have never been to you personally ? Nobody ever came to me personally except Mrs.
who came with her child. 9374,
210 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. H.Adair. 9374. What did she come to you for? She said that as soon as her husband came back he was always
' — K~^~^ gambling.
28 Oct., 1891. c)375 j)Ki she indicate the place where he gambled in ? I think she said that it was in No. 64. _ I went
in there to satisfy the lady, but I did not see him there. A woman often makes a great complaint, you
know, before she has got any occasion to.
9376. But do you not know that the gambling that is being carried on amongst the Chinese and Euro-
peans down there has been a great curse to the whole of the district. Has it not spread and involved
many families in great misery ? I know one thing — that work is very scarce down there, and it makes
things miserable amongst the families of working men.
9377. But you do not think that a large portion of the misery that exists amongst the workers is the
result of gambling their wages away in these dens? No ; I do not think that that has been the case of
late, at all events.
9378. And you are perfectly certain that it has not increased during the last four or five years ? Oh ! it
has decreased, because in Queen's-street and Anson's-place there used to be some gambling-dens, and
they are done away with now.
9379. But in George-street has it increased ? There may be three more in Lower G-eorge-street.
9380. And how many have been closed in the other places ? Every one of them has been closed.
9381. So that in the aggregate the number has been actually reduced ? Yes ; because there was one in
Harrington-street, and that has been done away with.
9382. Has Mr. Atwill ever told you to be very active in looking after these places ? Yes ; always.
Sergeant Higgins and I have had strict orders to keep our eyes upon them.
9383. Five years ago were there many women or girls round there ? Eound the Chinese gambling-shops ?
9384. Yes, or in anv of the other Chinese places ? There were only three women round the gambling-
shops in my time. "One was Mrs. Moy Ping, another was Nellie Hassell, who was a servant of hers, and
the third came down from the country with her husband, and went to China with him. Those are the
only women that I have seen in the gambling-houses.
9385. Are there not a good many women living with Chinamen down there ? Yes, there are on the
Eocks, in Gloucester-street, Harrington-street, and Queen-street.
9386. Are these women general prostitutes for different nationalities ? "Well, I have not seen them except
with Chinamen.
9387. Do you know how the Chinese treat their women ? I believe that they treat them well. They give
them lots to eat, and lots to drink, and good clothes. Those women are what I call respectable
prostitutes. They do not get drunk like those that come down from the other end of the town.
9388. Do you know anything about Goulburn-street ? No ; I do not.
93S9, Then in your opinion there is not a large amount of female immorality occasioned by the presence
of the Chinese in your district? No; there are not more than seven or eight women altogether living
with the Chinese, and I know that very well, because I live in the heart of it myself.
9390. Do they smoke opium? None of the women that live with the Chinamen.
9491. Do you know any women in your district who smoke opium ? Well, there is one in the Suez Canal
who smokes opium.
9392. But are there not forty or fifty women down there who regularly smoke opium ? Well, I have
never seen them, and I have been about at all hours of the day and night.
9393. The Chinese use it ? Yes ; some of them do.
9394. Your beat includes the whole of Miller's Point ? The whole of Miller's Point from the .north side
of Hunter-street to the north side of Margaret-street ; but as a matter of fact plain clothes men can go
anywhere in the division that they like.
9395. So that you are thoroughly acquainted with the whole of the district in which the Chinese live ?
Yes ; with the whole of the division.
9396. Mr. Josephson has a good many houses occupied by .the Chinese in Queen-street ? Yes ; but I
think that Mr. Anson and Mr. W. A. Long own most of that property.
9397. There are a good many Chinese living there are there not ? They are all Chinese living in Queen-street.-
9398. Are they gamblers ? They are all most respectable hawkers, and there is an old Chinaman living in
Anson's-square who sells to all these hawkers.
9399. Are there not a number of women living in that street ? No ; there is only one white woman
living there with a Chinaman, and she has been living there for years.
9400. Are therenoChinesewomen living down there? Yes; therearetwo or three living with their husbands.
9401. You say that Mr. Atwill read the charge made by members of the deputation who waited upon Sir
Henry Parkes out to you from the newspapers ? Yes ; to Sergeant Higgins and myself.
9402. Did he make any remarks to you about the matter? He asked us if we had ever received any of
those bribes mentioned in the paper, and I told him " No."
9403. Did he point out this statement made by Mr. Kelly in the course of his speech? What statement?
9404. This : " That as soon as a question on the matter was asked in Parliament the police made a
successful raid. If they could do this once they could keep on with it, and not make a raid once in
twelve months merely "? Is that Mr. Kelly, the M.P., or Mr. Kelly, the grocer?
9105. It is Mr. Kelly, the grocer ? I would not believe a word that that man said myself.
9406. But would that be a correct statement of your actions ? No ; it would not.
9407. Were you influenced in your duty by the organization of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ?
No ; we were not. The warrants were out a week before that for the raid upon Moy Ping's place. I
got a friend to assist me in it, or elso I do not think it would have come off.
9408. But the raids were all successful, were they not? All but two. One was dismissed, because the
parties were arrested without a warrant, and in the other they bested us on a point of law when the case
went to the appeal.
9109. Then the others were all successful ? Yes ; I dare say there were nine successful raids,
8410. How long did they spread over ? Eive or six years.
9411. Well, if nine raids in the course of 5 years were successful, and the gambling has been carried on
as actively in spite of them, why did you not make it ninety ? Because the places are barricaded up so
much. There is some timber there, hardwood — about 3 by 2, and the police cannot force their way
through that very well.
9412.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — -MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 241
9412. Have you ever made reports to your superior officer about the difficulty of getting into the places, Mr. H.Adair,
and the unwisdom of allowing those barricades to go up ? Tes. Sergeant Higgins and I have done so, and ' — — *— '"^
explained to Mr. Atwill how the partitions were arranged, and that we should consequently have some 28 0ot,> 1891-
trouble in getting in.
9413. You do not know whetherthe made any report to the Inspector-General about it, do you ? That I
cannot say.
9414. Have you ever known any individual worker lose large sums of money down there ? "Well, I know
that men have complained to me that they have lost their weeks wages.
9415. And have you ever heard the statement made by the police, or anybody else, that Lower George-
street is one of the best beats in the city for a policeman ? *Well, I heard that Tom Davis, the present
member, I think it was, had made some such statement through the press. Personally, I may say that
I have applied to be removed several times.
9416. Why ? Because our rents are pretty high. I pay 16s. for a four-roomed house.
9417. And your duties are very arduous ? * Tes, they are. I should be glad at any time to get a transfer
from that district.
9418. Tou have not heard it stated that it is the easiest thing for a policeman in the Lower George-street
beat to get not only diamond rings and gold watches, but a house or two ? Well, they have not come
round my way ; I have no diamond rings or gold watches. I have a silver watch.
9419. Have you ever heard that Mr. Atwill is afraid to carry out his duties ? No ; and I do not think he
has much occasion to be afraid. He is a most straightforward man.
9420. Has his conduct ever led you to suspect that for some reason or other he was afraid to carry out
his duty in respect of these Chinese gambling-dens ? No ; because he is always on to Sergeant Higgins
and myself to get on to these Chinese gamblers.
9421. Has he ever complained to you that you are not energetic enough in the matter ? No, because I
do not think he has had any occasion to do so.
9422. Has anybody ever complained to you of the difficulty of going up Lower George-street without
molestation ? No.
9423. Nobody ever complained to you about women being mawled about and insulted ? I do not think
it would be true if they did. I have been there twelve years, and never known of a woman being mawled
about.
9424. Then the Chinese residents of Lower George-street are a law-abiding people ? Tes ; They are
thoroughly law-abiding people. They may get drunk once in a way, but on the whole they are a most
peaceable class.
9425. Do they not fight with you ? Oh ! Europeans fight with me sometimes.
9426. Have you ever heard of Chinese gambling-house proprietors making as much as £60,000 out of the
business carried on down there ? £60,000 ! No ; I do not think they have all made that together.
9427. Then you do not think that Chinese gambling is an extensive evil ? I do think that it is an exten-
sive evil, but not as extensive as you seem to think by mentioning such sums as £60,000.
9428. Suppose that you were to compare it with the " totes " and the sweeps, how do you think it would
come off ? Well, I should say that the " totes " and the sweeps were the best paying thing of the two.
9429. But would the Chinese gambling bear a favourable comparison with them in its extent ? No, it
would not.
9430. Do you think that in order to suppress this thing that the police should have the power of entering
the houses without a warrant ? Well, if some of the police got the power they would abuse it I think.
There are some men in the force who would rush at anything without sufficient grounds. It would be a
good thing if there was a non-commissioned officer with them for them to have the power of entering at
sight.
9431. Do you think that the Chinese gamblers should be compelled to keep their houses in the same
condition as others, and knock down their barricades ? Well, that I cannot say.
9432. Would not that facilitate the entry of and observation by the police ? Judging from what I see of the
barricades when I visit the place, I should say that they ought to make them pay rates for each room
created by the partitions.
9433. Tes, but supposing they paid rates for them that would not assist the police in observing them or
gaining admission when the gambling was going on inside ? No, that is true. If these barricades were away
the police would not have much trouble.
9434. That is the point I wish you to give me your opinion about. Do you not think that they should
be compelled to keep the house free from those barricades ? Tes ; I think that they should be compelled
to do so. I do not think that the landlord should allow them to be put up because it knocks their walls
about.
9435. And do you think that after due notice had been given to the landlord that his place was being used
as a gambling-den, he should be held responsible ? That would be a good way of putting it down.
9436. And do you think that the possession of gambling implements — tables, coins, and so on, should be
taken as evidence of a breach of the law, and help to sustain a charge ? Well, in fan-tan there is very
little of that sort of thing used, because you could, take a packing-case and a few coins and a pencil, anil
that would do.
9437. But they have a regular table for the game, have they not ? Well, this table would make two, and
in most cases they have a Chinese mat over it, and there is a piece of iron or lead or perhaps paste-board
paper to place the money on.
9438. Do you think that anybody being found on the premises whilst the gambling is going on — the fact
of his presence I mean — should be evidence against him without having to summon him as you have to now ?
Well, there might be some respectable people in the house who had gone there for the purpose of making
inquiries, and it would be very hard upon them if their presence was enough to convict them straight
away. It was very hard on one man in the last case I think.
9439. Well, but their statement could be given, and the Court could convict them or not according to the
value they set upon his word. It would act as an additional preventive, and after all very few people
go in for the purpose of making inquiries ? Well, on the occasion of the raid at Moy Ping's, one man
was there who, I believe, had never been in a gaming-house before in his life. I felt very^orry for him,
but he had to be charged like the others.
272—2 H 9440.
242 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. H. Adair. 9440. How is that they are allowed to sell pak-ah-pu tickets openly about the streets to you or anybody
s~—K~- ~s else ? Well, in one case there was a conviction, and I think that it went to the appeal, and we won it.
28 Oct., 1891. 94j.]__ jf0j I think you must be mistaken, because Judge Backhouse has just given a decision that pak-ah-
pu is not an unlawful game ? Well, some Judges uphold it and some do not. To my knowledge there
was one conviction in a case of pak-ah-pu, and one Judge upheld it, and another dismissed it.
9442. Have you ever heard of Mr. Atwill receiving any presents of any kind whatever — chests of tea for
instance ? Not up to the last week.
9443. What did you hear last week ? I heard that someone had been saying that they had seen Mr.
Atwill receive 20 sovereigns. I think Sergeant Higgins mentioned the matter to me. He said that Mr.
Atwill had told him about it.
9444. Do you know who made the charge ? That I cannot say.
9445. Do you know anything to justify the charge ? I do not believe that there is a word of truth in it.
9446. Do you think he is that kind of man who would refuse 20 sovereigns ? Well, I think he
would refuse hundreds of sovereigns, not only twenty. I have been under him nine years.
9447. And the result of your being under him now would not influence your opinion in his favour — would
not cause you to give him a good character ? No.
9448. Not for the purpose of getting into his good graces ? No ; I think not, because I believe that he
and I have had more growls than anybody else at the station. It would not influence me in the least
because I think he is a good officer, as good an officer as any in Sydney.
9449. Tou have never heard of him receiving any tea or ginger ? No.
9450. You are quite sure ? Quite certain.
9451. Is it not a custom of the Chinese at one time of the year to send presents round to police officers
and others ? Well, none of them have ever come to my place.
9452. And they could easily send them up to your place? Tes, easily, because there are Chinamen living
within a few paces of me.
9453. And you have never been in the position of Sergeant Higgins, having had things sent to you, and
having returned them ? On one occasion after we had been making a raid some things were left at my
gate. I was living at Lower Fort-street then.
9454. What were they ? Some of them were tea-boxes, I think — there were two chests of tea and some
other things. Sergeant Higgins and I came up and fetched them down to the police station to Mr.
Atwill, and then Sergeant Higgins and I took the 'bus and carried them up to the Superintendent's.
9455. Was that the only occasion on which you were the recipient of any presents ? Tes ; that was the
only occasion.
9456. Tou never had a small bag of sovereigns sent to you ? No ; I am sorry to say I have not. They
would have come in very handy.
9457. Tou do not mean to say that you have never had a bag of sovereigns sent to you ? I found a book
full of sovereigns on one occasion — 400 odd, and I returned them ; they belonged to a man who I
locked up.
9458. Oh ! you found the owner ? Tes ; he was locked up for being drunk.
9459. Did he give you anything ? Well, I do not know whether he did or not ; a letter came from Mudgee
some time afterwards for constable 311 (that was me) containing £10.
9460. What did you do with it ? I gave it to my wife.
9461. Did you report it ? Tes, to Inspector Johnson who was my superior at that time, and he said,
" Does anybody owe you the money? " " Tes ; " I said, "there are lots of people owe me money, but I do
not think I shall ever get it." " Well," he said, " you are constable 311."
9462. Summing the whole thing up do you think it would be an advantage to that locality, and would
restore the business to it if the Chinese gambling-places were cleared out from there altogether ? I do
not think it would, because the business has removed to the other end of the town.
9463. But is not that largely the result of the presence of the Chinese up there ; — we have been told
that respectable people will not on that account pass along Lower George-street ? I do not think there
is anything in that because some people go down Lower George-street to the Quay now, and some go
down Pitt-street. My opinion, as I have said before, is that the difference in the business done there now
in comparison to what used to be done is caused chiefly through the A.U.S.N. Company removing its
offices to the other end of the town.
9464. But is not the objection on the part of respectable people to the Chinese so strong that it lowers the
district altogether ? Well, I see a good many respectable people going down to the Chinese shops and
making purchases. There is one shop down there kept by a Chinaman in which you will see respectable
people all day long.
9465. But you think that the falling off of business at that end of the town is principally due to other
causes ? Tes ; to the shipping going up Darling Harbour.
9466. Mr. Quong Tart.~\ I have iistened to your evidence and think that by the way you get into these
places you bear out your name very well ? I am afraid of nothing myself. I have a little hot temper,
that is all.
9467. Of course you are aware that there are great complaints about the Chinese gambling ? Tes.
9468. That it has been carried on especially in Lower George-street lately — more during the last six
months than at any other time ? I do not believe it, because we have had so many strikes lately.
Sergeant Higgins and I have been out in the suburbs for three months, and another month and a half
we were somewhere else.
9469. What is the principal game that they carry on down there ? Only fan-tan and lottery-tickets as
far as I know.
9470. Do you understand the game of fan-tan at all ? I have a pretty good idea how it is played.
9471. And what do you think of the game — do you think it is a fair game ? Well, as much as I have
seen of fan- tan, and I have seen several different games in my life played in different countries, I think
it is as fair a game as any that is played. It is the percentage that cooks the men.
9472. Tou think that there is no cheating in it? No ; I think the percentage would do it.
9473. Tou have not heard of many people winning large sums of money ? I heard of one or two men
connected with the coals, having done rather well ; but most people are more ready to tell us when they
lose than when they win.
9474. Who win most — the Europeans or the Chinese ? Well, some of the Chinese get hit pretty often,
especially in the lottery business. 9475.
CHINESE GAMMING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 243
9475. Who stands the best chance in the long run — the gamblers or the proprietors of the gambling- Mr. H. Adair,
houses ? I think the gamblers. /— ^-— -\
9476. Do you mean the bankers or the Europeans who play ? If the banker is struck he is bound to go 28 0ct,» 1891,
broke, and I have heard of cases in which the bank was broken.
9477. Supposing you were the banker (they are mostly companies), and I came in to gamble at your
place, who would be the best off in the long run ? The banker would be the best in the long run, if they
only played long enough.
9478. What does the banker do between the times that he is gambling ? Well, I think there are certain
people control the bank for an hour or an hour and a half, or perhaps two hours.
9479. Suppose you are a gambler, and I am a banker, and we are shut up together in a house for a week,
who would come off best ? Well, I think that the gambler would come off the best in the end, because
the percentage would break the other man.
9480. How many Europeans have been in the habit of frequenting these places ? A good many.
9481. A hundred, or fifty, or how many ? Oh, there must be more ; because there are some Europeans
who will never go to them, and there are others who nearly live there. If you are in the habit of visiting
them you see nearly the same faces there always.
9482. Mr. Hawthorne.'] You do not notice many fresh customers ? Well, one of the regular yisitors
may bring a fresh customer now and then to initiate him into the game.
9483. But on the whole you generally see the same company there night after night ? Tes ; generally
the same company.
9484. Mr. Quong Tart.] Have you ever seen any respectable Chinese merchants visiting these gambling-
houses ? No ; I never have.
9485. And you do not think they are connected with them in any way ? Well, I do not think there are
any Chinese merchants there who would mix themselves up with the gamblers — that is to the best of my
belief.
9486. Have you ever known any member of the police force to guard the houses, whilst the gambling was
going on inside ? No ; I have not.
9487. And if anybody has said that it is done, that is untrue ? Tes ; it is.
9488. Have you known any of the police to accept any bribe to not interfere with the gambling ? It has
never come to my knowledge.
9489. Tou never heard of any member of the force doing so ? No ; I never heard of such a thing.
9490. If anyone has come here, and said that any of the police have accepted bribes, you would not
believe them ? Well, there are some people down there who would say anything, but it is all hearsay.
9491. When is the gambling in full play ? It generally starts about 10 o'clock in the day, and then they
knock off for dinner, and go back in the afternoon ; but the easiest time is between 8 and 9 at night.
9492. Mr. Hawthorne.] By that, we are to understand that when men have knocked off work and cleaned
themselves, they came out for the purpose of gambling? Tes ; they might take a stroll down, and take
out a ticket, and then come back again when the bank was drawn, and see whether there was anything in
it, and perhaps buy another ticket.
9493. What are the times for drawing the banks ? Some of the banks are drawn at all hours.
9494. Do you know how many lottery -banks there are ? I daresay there is one in every house. There
are a good many. There are places where they only sell pak-ah-pu tickets. There is no gambling — no
fan-tan — carried on in them, although some of them are classed as gambling-houses.
9495. How many of these places are there ? Oh, a good many ; because there are some private houses
in Harrington-street where pak-ah-pu tickets are sold.
9496. Give us a rough guess at the number ? Oh, there may be five or six in which only tickets are sold.
9497. Do you know anything at all about this game of pak-ah-pu ? No, I do not, because they will not
show the police or white men at all how the bank is drawn.
9498. If I told you that pak-ah-pu was a hundred times worse than fan-tan you would not believe me, I
suppose ? Well, I could not say, because they screw the tickets up in a basin, and draw them in that way.
I saw them doing it some years ago, but I have not seen them lately.
9499. Tou were speaking of a pak-ah-pu case being heard in Court ; — when was that ? That I cannot
say. I know it was sometime ago.
9500. Would it be four, five, or six years ago ? It was whilst I was in the police force. I know that
there was a conviction in one case, and another case was dismissed.
9501. Mr. Abigail.] Was the case that you refer to tried as recently as March last ? Oh, it was before
that.
9503. But do you know that three men were convicted as recently as March last, by Judge Backhouse, and
no appeal made against the decision ? No, I was not aware of that.
9503. Mr. Quong Tart.] How many people does it take to carry on this game of pak-ah-pu? I think
there are three men in the rooms where they draw the bank.
9504. One drawing the tickets, and how many inside ? I think they pass the tickets on from one to the
other, and I think there is one inside. To the best of my belief there are altogether three Chinamen
engaged in the transaction.
9505. What kind of a place is it that they draw the lottery in? Well, there is a room in wooden partition,
and bars up it, closed fenced to a height of about 5 feet, and then bars and openings.
9506. And what coloured paper do they use inside — red, green, or blue ? Well, they have a red ticket
that is the bank ticket, and then the ticket you mark will be white and black.
9507. Do you see any white paper stuck inside on the walls ? Tes, there is some white paper stuck inside
on the walls.
9508. Do you know the meaning of it ? No, I do not know what it means.
9509. Tou say that the ticket is rolled Up ; — where do they get it from ? I think they take it out of the
book— the book that is sold, and the tickets are all initialled beforehand.
9510. Tou say that there was a case against a lottery-bank dismissed in the Court ; — do you know who
the solicitor was ? No, 1 do not.
9511. We should like to know how he got the ease dismissed ? Well, sometimes they manage to get the
man off on a point of law, and sometimes on a technicality. ^
9512. This notice says, " Pan-tan carried on day and night inside," and it also says, " Cash business— no
tick ?" No, I do not expect they would give them any tick. 95i3.
244 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. H.Adair. 9513. So, that, presuming you had understood the notices in Chinese— supposing that you had got the
/——*——% interpreter to read them, would you have taken any action ? I do not think we should, because you
28 Oct., 1891. must see the game anci summ0ii the people before you could get a conviction.
951-1. The mere notice is not sufficient ? No, I do not think it should be.
9515. Mr. Hawthorne.] But supposing that a similar notice announcing that gambling was carried on
within night and day appeared outside some of the tobacconist shops in Greorge-street, what would bo
your course of procedure then ? We should try and catch them gambling.
9516. But you did not know that this notice had any reference at all to gambling ? No, I did not.
9517. And it is only during the last few weeks that you have been informed that this white notice on
many of the buildings in Lower George-street stated that gambling was carried on day and night ? It is
only during the last fortnight, because there are notices of several different colours out.
9518. Mr. Quong Tart.~\ Did you notice white paper stuck outside any of the really respectable merchant's
places ? Tes, I think I have.
9519. White paper? Well, I think it was white. It was a large placard.
9520. Tes, but was it red or white ? I cannot say which, but I know that it was a large notice.
9521. Well it cannot have been white if it was outside a respectable merchant's place. Only the gamblers
put white paper notices outside their shops. I may tell you for your future guidance, that if you find
any white paper notices outside Chinese houses you should take notice of them, but if they are red paper
notices they are merely business advertisements ? Tes, I know the red paper is stuck up principally
during the Chinese New Tear.
9522. Tes, that is to wish you a happy New Tear, but if you saw the other notices up, and knew what they
meant, could you not take action ? I do not think that a magistrate would grant a warrant on those
grounds, because there might be people bad-minded enough to go and stick some up on another man's
door. There are some people who even break the windows of houses occupied by anyone who gives
information to the police. If anyone gives information to the police his windows are bound to be
broken.
9523. Mr. Hawthorne.] Are you speaking of information given in reference to gambling carried on by the
Chinese particularly ? No, not particularly. If a man gives any information to the Chinese his neigh-
bours will break his windows.
9524. But if any person gave you information that led to the bringing to justice of some criminal or the
unearthing of some tragedy he would be subject to treatment of that kind ? I know it, because on one
occasion when I arrested a person for kicking up a drunken row, one of my own children came home with
her eye nearly cut out. That is the class of people we have got down there mostly.
9525. I suppose we could say that there is no worse district in the metropolitan division than your dis-
trict ? Oh ! the district is all right as far as the district is concerned, because the working-classes help the
police ; but what wo have to contend against are the seamen of all nationalities who come into it.
9526. But amongst the police themselves is your district considered the worst ? Well, some say that it
is the worst, but I do not. I can do my duty very well there. I have no trouble with anyone — either
coal-lumpers or wharf-labourers.
9527. Mr. Quong Tart.] Have either Europeans or Chinese ever complained to you of the nuisance of
this Chinese gambling ? Mr. Swinburne is the only one who has complained to me.
9528. Nobody has complained to you that the Chinese gambling has interfered with their business and
stopped the traffic? !No ; I do not see how it could interfere with Mr. Swinburne's business, because he
is a boot-maker. I have never seen any traffic stopped there, although there may be a row occasionally.
9529. Nor complained of the necessity of something being done to stop the evil ? Well, sometimes there
is a smell of opium. Strangers would smell it, perhaps, but not people living down there for years.
9530. Opium has a peculiar smell ? Tes.
9531. Do you think there is much smoking in the gambling-shops ? I do not think there is much smoking
of opium in the gambling-shops myself.
9532. What do you think of the gambling at the present time in Lower G-eorge-street ; — is it increasing
or decreasing ? It is decreasing.
9533. Amongst the Chinese, against whom you had to proceed for breaking the law, what is the prin-
cipal offence — gambling, stealing, or what ? Well, there are some Chinamen like some Europeans —
convicted of stealing.
9534. Tes, but of all the cases that are brought against the Chinese generally, what, in your opinion as a
policeman of long standing down there, is the principal charge against them? Well, in a good many
cases that have come to my knowledge, it is cases against the Chinese arise principally in connection with
thesegarnbhng-dens. A man might go in and play, and then claim a shilling, and the Chinaman would
not give it to him, and there would be a row. The man who, perhaps, started the row, might have 6d. or
Is. when he went there, and having lost that would want them to give him a start again.
9535. Mr. Hawthorne.] Then the principal charges against the Chinese, I understand from that, arise
through the disappointment of Europeans in connection with losses contracted in these gambling-places ?
Tes ; I know myself that there used to be several men who levied black-mail on the Chinamen. If they
did not give money they would go and knock them around.
9536. Have you found any of those cases arising in the places of respectable Chinese merchants ? No ;
I have not. There may have been one case, in which a person was charged with beating a man in On
Chong's. I arrested that man myself. It was some years ago.
9537. Now, there is a great complaint about this ; it is said, " Why do the police allow gambling to be
carried on so openly among the Chinese "? I do not see how you can see it at all unless vou get into the
back rooms.
9538. It is not true that you can see it from the street ? No, it is not. If we could see it from the
street there would have been a great many more raids made, but we cannot see it unless we get into the
back rooms, and that is such a very hard matter, I do not call pak-ah-pu gambling at all. They merely
go in to buy tickets.
WEDNESDAI,
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 245
WEDNESDAY, 11 NOVEMBER, 1891.
The Mayor of Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Peesident.
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Henry Ah Wall called and examined : —
9539. President.'] What are you ? I am a grocer by trade. H. Ah Wah.
9540. Where do you live ? I live at my cousin's place, in Harrington-street. ,-~A— %
9541. Where are you working now ? I am not working at the present time. n Nov., 1891.
9542. Where were you working last ? I was working for my cousin.
9543. Where at ? Ah Sue's.
5944. Where does he cany on business ? At 229 and 185, George-street North.
9545. What is he ? A general storekeeper, or merchant.
■9546. How long have you been in the Colony ? About twelve or thirteen years.
9547. About what age were you when you first came to the Colony ? I was about 5 years of age.
9543. That would make you about 17 years of age now. What is your exact age ? Nineteen years.
9549. Have you remained in the Colony ever since you came here ? No ; I have been home to China
since.
9550. And how long did you remain in China ? Nine months.
■9551. How long is it since you have been back from China ? About two years, or more.
9552. What was your object in going back to China ? I went to see my mother.
9553. Is your father living ? No.
9554. Was that the only object you had in going to China ? That was all.
9555. Whom have you been employed by since you came back to Sydney ? I was at my uncle's. I was
educated at his place.
9556. Who is your uncle ? John Ah Sue.
9557. And have you been with him since you came to the Colony ? Yes.
9558. You are in the fancy goods business ? Yes.
9559. Does your uncle do any other kind of business ? He is also an agent for portrait painting iu oils.
9560. He keeps a general fancy store, I suppose ? Yes.
9561. Does he do anything in the way of gambling ? No.
9562. Are you quite sure ? Yes.
9563. Have you ever been to Tingha ? Yes ; I was there.
9564. How long is it since you were there ? About eight or nine months ago, I think.
9565. How long did you stop there ? About three or four months.
9566. What were you doing at Tingha ? I was tin-mining there — prospecting.
9567. Did you work at it ? I went out with a party — there were four of us. I took the money out for
them to work ; but I also did some work occasionally.
9568. What do you mean by taking the money out for them to work ? I got all the tools and things
necessary to go prospecting.
9569. Where did you get them from ? Erom the storekeepers.
9570. Had you money of your own to pay for those things? Yes; I paid for some of them, and got
others from my cousin's place.
9571. Did the other three of your party subscribe anything ? Yes ; some. But I put the most towards
it, and if we got any tin I was to get the largest share proportionally.
9572. In consideration of your providing more money you had to get the largest share of the pro-
ceeds of your mining venture ? Yes ; in proportion to the share contributed.
9573. How long is it since you gave up prospecting ? About eight months ago, I think.
9574. And you then came down to Sydney ? Yes.
9575. What have you been doing since you came to Sydney ? I have been interpreting, and sometimes
writing letters, and doing other things for my countrymen.
9576. Have you had any other means of living besides that ? . I was working at Bow Sing Tong's for some
time.
9577. How long have you been with him ? I was working for him for about three months and a half.
9578. How was it you came to live there ? I left there because the master did not need me.
9579. Who was the master ? Jas. Ung Quay, of Tin War & Co.
9580. Jas. Ung Quay is the proprietor of the place ? He is not the proprietor, but he employed me.
9581. Now you appear to be a very intelligent young man, and you can give the Commission a lot of
information, on this question if you like ; I want you to speak out ? Yes, I will tell you all I know.
9582. What is the name over the door of the place you worked in — Bow Sing Tong ? Yes.
9583. Is that name only a blind to conceal the real name ? No ; that is the name of the firm.
9584. Then how does Ung Quay become a proprietor if it is the name ? There are several in the firm.
9585. Is Ung Quay the principal ? They all have shares — every one of them.
9586. Who are in the firm besides Ung Quay ? Lee Sow, Sue On, Ah Chin, and Ah Hook.
9587. Are there no other members in the firm ? No ; those were all that had shares when I was there.
9588. Now, what business do they carry on in this place ? Well, it is a gambling-place — a fan-tan
house for the Chinese to play amongst themselves.
9589. The shop is kept entirely for playing fan-tan ? Yes, for gambling amongst themselves.
9590. Any one that likes to go in there to gamble can do so ? Oh ! yes.
9591. Europeans as well as Chinese ? No ; no Europeans go there.
9592. Are you quite sure that no Europeans go there? Quite sure.
9593. It is maintained exclusively for Chinese ? Yes.
9594. Is it frequented by large numbers of Chinese ? No ; not so very many.
9595. I suppose there is no distinction made — that is to say, any one that likes can go in there so long
as they have money ? Oh ! yes ; they can go whether they have monev or not.
9596.
246 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OS EVIDENCE.
H. Ah Wah. 9596. Do any of those men you have mentioned who have an interest in the place play themselves ?
' *-" — " Yes, they play, now and again.
11 Nov., 1891. 9597 Doea Tjng Quay piav there p No
9598. Have you never seen him play at all ? I have not.
9599. Are you quite sure ? Quite. I have not seen him. He does not give his name or anything. He
gives the money to other people, who let their names appear, and he keeps his name out of it.
9600. Are we to understand from you that Ung Quay is connected with the gamblers, but does not want
the public to know it ? Tes.
9601. And he works on other people's names, although he himself is one of the partners ? Tes. He
' has other people like Lee Sow to take up his share for him ; and it goes under Lee Sow's name, although
at the same time it belongs to Ung Quay.
9602. Other persons put up their names, but the business really belongs to TJng Quay ? It is not his
altogether — the others have a share each ; but Ung Quay does not allow his name to appear.
9603. But you knew when you were there that Ung Quay was one of the partners? Yes.
9604. How often used he to go there ? Perhaps once a week, or once a fortnight, or something like
that. Sometimes he would come, and other times he would not.
9605. But you are positive that Ung Quay is one of the firm trading as Bow Sing Torig ? Yes ; he is
one of the partners, but does not allow his name to appear; I know it because I was employed there.
9606. And you looked upon Ung Quay as one of your masters ? Yes.
9607. Did Ung Quay pay you ? He did not pay me. He employed me, and the man outside in charge
of the money paid me my wages. It was Ung Quay who asked me to go and take up the job.
9608. Jas. Ung Quay asked you to take the job, and work in this gambling-house ? Yes.
9609. And he goes there once every week ? Sometimes he goes once in the week, sometimes twice a.
week, and sometimes he would not be there for a month, perhaps.
9610. He goes there at different times, but always keeps up his connection with the place, and is in
reality one of the masters ? Yes.
9611. "When you saw Jas. Ung Quay come into the place you always looked upon him as one of the
masters employing you, and treated him as such? Wo. When he came in he was just the same as an
ordinary man. But at the same time he had a share. He told us not to put his name forward. But I
knew he was employing me ; and if I was employed by him he must have a share in the place. I know he
has one share, because it was his share I was workiog for like.
9612. Do you know whether Ung Quay is interested in any other place besides that ? "Well, I have
heard he is in a place called Wang War, but I am not positive. I have heard people say he is.
9613. You are not sure on that point ? No.
9614. Do you know if he is interested in any other house used as a gambling-place ? He might have in
a lot of them for all I know, but he does not let it be known. The only place I know in which he has an
interest is Bow Sing Tong, and I know that because he employed me.
9615. In this place, you are referring to, did they carry on the gambling-business openly ? No ; they did,
not carry it on so openly.
9616. Has it a shop front ? Yes.
9617. Are there any goods displayed in the shop ? When I was there they had medicine and cigars, and
cigarettes, and all that kind of things to be sold.
9618. Did they do much business in any other way besides the gambling-business ? No ; not much.
9619. Did they do any business in the chemist's line ? Very little, just about enough to pay the rent.
9620. Would they have been able to carry on but for the gambling-business ? I do not think so. They
might have been able to clear the rent perhaps.
9621. What is your impression — that the chemist's business was put forward in the front shop' as a kind
of blind to the public ? No ; it was not a blind. They imported the medicine, so that they could make
something out of that at the same time.
9622. Was the gambline;-place at the back of the premises ? No ; it is in the next room to the shop.
9623. That is, behind the shop ? Yes.
9624. Did they declare any dividends while you were there ? No. They did not make anything while I
was there. When I left they had lost about £40 or £50.
9625. Did they supply people with medicine there ? Yes ; customers came in occasionally.
9626. Chinese customers ? Yes. The Chinese doctors would give prescriptions, and they would come in
there and get them dispensed.
9627. Did they keep a dispenser on the premises ? Yes ; one man was kept there for that.
9628. He did nothing else but dispense medicine ? He did all the shop work.
9629. How much a week do you think they took in the chemist's shop ? Including tobacco and other
things together, they would sometimes take £10 or £12 in the week.
9630. What rent did they pay ? I do not know what the rent was exactly.
9631. About what amount per week would it be, do you think ? I think about £3 a week, but I am not
positive.
9632. Did the shareholders in Bow Sing Tong divide the profits of the gambling ? There was no division
of profits while I was there.
9633. You have been in other gambling-places, I suppose ? No, sir.
9634. Whom did you apply to when you got your engagement with the firm of Bow Sing Tong ? I did not
apply to anyone. Ung Quay asked me if I would like'to take the job, and I told him yes.
9635. What was the job ? To be in the shop.
9636. What were your duties ? I was to stop in the place and look after it ; and if any Europeans came
in — especially disorderly Europeans — I was to tell them they could not come in, and to go out. Ung
Quay employed me for that purpose, because he said I could speak English.
9637. Did you know that you were to take part in a gambling establishment when you went there ? Yes.
9638. You knew that perfectly well ? Tes.
9639. Did Ung Quay give you to understand that you would have to look after the gambling portion of
the premises as well ? I was to look after the place ; to keep the Europeans from entering the inside
part ; and then, of course, if any Europeans came in to buy tickets, I was to mark them for them. I did
not take any other part such as the banker or croupier, or anything like that. I was simply in the shop
" : to
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE.
24?
to look after the place, and see that the other employees did their duty ; to mark the tickets, and keep the H. Ah Wah.
Europeans from coming in. lri^^ifloi
9640. Ung Quay knew what he engaged you do ? He did. u JNov., j«u.
9641. Supposing the rent was £3 a week and the takings, say, £10 a week, would there not be five shares
in that? Tes.
9642. How would they divide that, do you know — there would be so little to divide among them ? Tes, but
they let off some of the rooms.
9643. They let them out the same as a lodging-house ? Tes.
9644. ]?or gambling purposes ? No ; simply for lodgings.
9645. Are the upper rooms in the house provided with beds ? No ; they provide beds themselves.
9646. Are there any families living there ? No.
9647. There are no women there at all ? No.
9648. How long have they been in the house where they are now ? When I came from Tingha it was
running then, but different people had it that time.
9649. Had Ung Quay an interest in it at that time ? Not that I know of.
9650. How long is it since Ung Quay has had an interest in this particular business ? About five or six
months to my knowledge. I was living up in Harrington-street, and Ung Quay came one day to me and
asked me if I would like to take the job, and I told him yes. He did not tell me that the place was his,
or anything like that.
9651. But he was the first to ask you to go and be employed there ? Tes ; it was he who employed me
first, and afterwards one of his cousins came and asked me to go over.
9652. Is the cousin you refer to among the names you have given of those having an interest in the
business ? It was Lee Sow — not a cousin exactly, but of the same community.
9653. So it was Ung Quay who saw you, and made arrangements for you to go and be employed at Bow
Sing Tong's, and you saw Lee Sow? Tes ; he is in the firm.
9654. Was Lee Sow there when you lived in the place ? He came there at the same time as I did — he
. started to work at the same time.
9655. What did he do ? Well, he has a share in the place.
9656. But what did he do during the day ? He did work in the place.
9657. What kind of work ? Playing fan-tan.
9658. He used to look after the gambling ? Tes. Of course the place is for the Chinese amongst
themselves.
9659. Did Ung Quay come in while they were gambling ? No ; he came at night-time, or early in the
morning, when the play had ceased.
9660. Did he never go in while they were playing ? No.
9661. What was his object in not going in when they were playing ; — did he not want anyone to
imagine that he was connected with it ? I think so. He told me not to let his name appear.
9662. Do you know the firm of Cheang Ah Chang ? Tes.
9663. Are they gamblers ? No.
9664. Are you quite sure ? Tes.
9665. Do you know G-oon War Koon ? Tes — at least there is no Goon War Koon now — it is Sue
Hing Loong.
9666. Who owns that ? I think there are two or three in it.
9667. Does Ung Quay own it ? I cannot say ; he never lets anyone know.
9668. What is his object in not letting anyone know ? Well, I suppose, because it does not look well to
the public.
9669. Is Ung Quay considered a respectable Chinaman ? I think so.
9670. Are you not sure ; — what was the reason of your leaving that firm ? The reason was that there was
a quarrel between one of my cousins and one of his men — that is, one from the same country as
himself.
9671. A kind of family quarrel ? My cousin hurt one of his countrymen, and he said that I had put him up
to do it.
9672. Was that the reason you left ; — did they discharge you ? Tes, afterwards they did. My cousin
was cook at Tiy War Tong's. Lee Sow was at the place, and he was grumbling about there not being
sufficient food, and meddling with everything. My cousin told him not to go in the kitchen, and an
altercation took place, the result being that they had a fight, and my cousin had the best of it— he hit him
in the nose.
9673. Tour cousin hit Lee Sow in the nose ? Tes.
9674. Who began the fight ? Lee Sow hit my cousin first — he put up his hands first, but he (Lee Sow)
afterwards gave my cousin in charge. It was on a Sunday, and I went down to the station and asked the
inspector if I could bail him out.
9675. Did the inspector allow you to bail him out ? I got my uncle to bail him out.
9676. Was your cousin brought up and tried ? No.
9677. Did not they proceed with the charge ? Well, I suppose the other side found out that the case
would be dismissed if they went to Court, and they made it up with us.
9678. Was it Ung Quay or Pow Chee got the matter settled out of Court for you ? It was Ung Quay
said we had better make it up. _
9679. What did they do ;— did they pay you anything ? No ; we paid them something to buy some grub,
to have something to drink, and settle it that way.
9680. Tour cousin gave some money to provide refreshments for the man he had assaulted, so as to make
friends, and the matter was settled out of Court in that way ? Tes ; and Ung Quay gave me the sack
9681. Tou are quite sure that Ung Quay is one of the proprietors in Bosv Sing Tong's ? Tes ; he has got
9682. He is one of a firm that carries on gambling as well as this chemist's shop ? Tes.
9683 And any Chinaman can go in and gamble at this place ? Tes.
9684. If there is any profit in the business, Ung Quay shares in them— he participates in the dividends ?
He gets his share if there is sufficient to divide.
9685.
248 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
H. Ah Wah. 9685. What were you supposed to do in that establishment ? I was in the shop looking after the place
/*"■— *— " ~n and keeping the Europeans out.
11 Nov., 1891. 9686. But I suppose you had something else to do besides that, did you not ? I had to mark the tickets
in the shop.
9687. And Ung Quay engaged you to mark them ? Not Ung Quay himself — that is to say, he did
employ me at first, but he did not pay me my wages. The company paid me.
9688. And Ung Quay is one of the company, although his name does not appear ? Tes.
9689. Do you know any other gambling-places down there? No ; I do not go in much.
9690. All that you have stated to the Commission now is not hearsay, but actual facts ? Tes.
9691. Pacts gained by you during your four months' experience at Bow Sing Tong's ? Tes.
9692. And the only cause of your leaving was the row that took place between your cousin and the other
man ? Tes. Ung Quay suspected that I was at the bottom of it, or something like that, because I went
down to the station and asked for bail for my cousin, and interpreted for him. Tou see I was a mate of
Lee Sow at this time, and they said I was taking the part of my cousin instead of my mate.
9693. Tou knew fan-tan was an unlawful game, I suppose ? Tes.
9694. "Were you ever troubled by the police ; — did they visit your place ? No.
9695. Did the police not visit Bow Sing Tong at all ? Not that I know of. I was only there three or
four months.
9696. Tou never saw any police come in while you were there ? No.
9697. Are they still carrying on there ? I have not been in since I left the place.
9698. Have you seen Ung Quay lately ? No.
9699. Have you not met him since you left that place ? No. I have been up the Parramatta district
lately.
9700. Did the firm ever tell you that if you were caught by the police your expenses would be paid by
the firm ? Oh, yes ; the company pays.
9701. Do you say the police never came in while you were there ? Not that I know of.
9702. Who used to take the part of banker and croupier in your business? Those that I have mentioned ;
they used to take it in turns.
9703. The four persons you have mentioned used to take the part of banker and croupier alternately ?
Tes.
9704. Did you ever see Ung Quay take one of these positions ? No.
9705. Did Ung Quay ever say anything in your hearing that it was wrong to engage in gambling, or that
you ought not to do so ? He never said anything of that kind to me.
9706. Do you come from the same district in China as Ung Quay ? Tes.
9707. Do you belong to the same clan as Ung Quay ? No.
9708. Is Ung Quay very much respected among his own people ? Tes.
9709. He is looked upon as a very respectable Chinaman ? Tes. He provided the money for our wages
whether there was anything doing or not, and when any of his coimtrymen came there, there was a place
for him to stop at. For instance, if the gardeners came, they could stop there, and go away the next day
if they liked.
9710. The people working out in the suburbs would go in there ? Tes.
9711. And would he make no charge ? No.
9712. He would allow them to stop there free ? Tes. He would keep a place ready for his own people.
9713. Used he to provide them with food ? No.
9714. They would pay for their own food ? They would get their food somewhere else.
9715. Mr. Abigail.'] But they got their lodgings free ? Tes.
9716. Mr. Quong Tart.'] Who acted as chemist in that place — Bow Sing Tong ? Sue Hoon.
!)717. He understands chemists' work ? I think he does. I do not understand it myself.
07 IS. Did you ever hear Ung Quay stop the people gambling ? No ; in fact I did not see very much of
him.
9719. How much per week did they pay you ? They gave me £1 a week and my keep.
9720. Now, I want you to give us an idea of the position occupied by Ung Quay among his countrymen
in Sydney ; — do you think the Chinese merchants look up to him ? I do not think so— not now.
9721. They used to ? Tes.
9722. Can you tell us the cause of the change ? I think it was on account of a law-suit between Sam
Choy and another, some time ago.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. Thos. Nock recalled and examined : —
Mr. T. Nock. 9723. Mr. Abigail.]^ We have summoned you to appear before us to-day, Mr. Nock, in reference to
, «- — v some matter which, it appears, cropped up in conversation between you and Mr. Lindeman with regard
11 Nov., 1891. to Mr. Atwill. Will you kindly state to the Commission what took place on the occasion referred to ?
Before I proceed further, sir, I should like to mention a matter bearing on what I said when I was here last
about my fear of the police, and the difficulty that there was in getting men to give evidence for fear of
the police. It is a difficult matter for me to explain, but you will see in this newspaper [produced] an
account of a matter in which a constable is concerned, who has been to a large extent on duty at our end
of the city, and which has a direct bearing on what I have said as to the fear in some men's minds if
they say anything to the prejudice of the police. If such a policeman has a " set" upon a man he
will " have " him at no matter what cost. Tou will see from the case that a man has no law to appeal
to against the persecution of a policeman if he has determined to put him away. [Paper referred
to by the witness handed in.]
9724. President.] Is this apropos of Mr. Lindeman ? Only in so far as it bears on the difficulty of
getting people to give evidence which may reflect on the police.
9725. But you have some special information to give the Commission, I understand, in which Mr.
Lindeman and Inspector Atwill are concerned ? Tes. Mr. Lindeman came into our shop to see if he
could sell a line of goods that he had had in stock for a considerable time. I told him there was no business
doing in our end of the town ; that things were getting worse instead of better, and that I would not
spend
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 249
spend another shilling on the place. Mr. Lindeman said, " No, I was glad to get out of the neighbourhood, Mr. T. Nock.
for I lost some money when I was in it." I said, " Yes, and Inspector Atwill does not give us any redress /*~ ^>w "—»
in the Chinese matter at all." Then Mr. Lindeman said, " Tou are quite right : He (Atwill) put me to no H Nov., 1891.
end of expense when I was applying for my license for the ' Eopemakers' Arms Hotel.' " He made it
necessary for no less than three magistrates to go and view the premises, and Mr. Lee, one of them, asked
what was the meaning of asking him to come and look at the place, saying that it was good enough for him to
live in, and he would not mind putting up there. Consequently I got my license in spite of Mr. Atwill, but
yet he had the cheek to come to my place immediately afterwards, and say to me in the presence of my
wife and the barmaid that I ought to make him a present of £100 on account of my getting my license —
(although he had opposed me in every possible way)." I then said to Mr. Lindeman, " "Well, there are a
great many of these statements made by men who are afraid to come and repeat them before a properly
constituted _ authority, because they are afraid of the vengeance of the police, these men being of
obscure positions in life, who never would be missed if the police were to nail them, as assuredly they
would. But you are a man of some standing in the community here, and I am not afraid to go and
make the statement myself, and lay this matter before the Commission." He (Mr. Lindeman) made no
objection. Our accountant was in[the shop at the time, and I drew his attention to what Mr. Lindeman
had said. Some reference was also made to the power exerted by the Masonic element down there, and
Lindeman said, " Oh, I have got over that part of it, and have become a Freemason myself, and shall
have no difficulty in getting the next license I may want."
9726. President.'] Tour accountant, you say, heard the statement made about Mr. Atwill and this £100 ?
Tes ; Mr. Chambers, that is our accountant, was present, and heard what passed, and also what I said
about bringing the matter before this Commission. Lindeman also stated that Inspector Atwill made
the remark in the presence of his wife, and barmaid, and that if he could prove it independently of
her he would have had Mr. Atwill for it ; but that he could not do so under the circumstances,
fearing that they might charge him with conspiracy, and he would not venture accordingly.
9727. Do you know anything about an application that is said to have been made by Mr. Atwill for
some cigars or tobacco on one occasion to Mr. Dawson, the fruiterer? Tes ; I will tell you how that
matter came up. Tou must know that since the Commission started, some of the hohses alongside
my place have not been able to pay the rents, and Mr. Beale has closed on them.
9728. Mr. Abigail."] So that there has been a reduction in the number of gambling-houses there since the
Commission started ? On that side there has been, certainly ; but
9729. President.] Kindly keep to the point you have started on ? "Well, Dawson it appears called Mr.
Atwill's attention to the increasing nuisance of the gambling-dens on the other side of the road.
Inspector Atwill told him he had better mind his own business. Dawson said, "I think it is my business;
it is a d fine state of things if I cannot call your attention to a breach of the law when I see it."
Mr. Atwill asked him "Do you know who you are talking to " ? " Tes," replied Dawson, " I believe I
am talking to Mr. Atwill." Inspector Atwill then said : " If you talk to me again that way I will find
you another billet." He (Dawson) came to me and gave it to me straight. He said after I got out of that
place his shop being part of the "Eopemakers' Arms," which Lindeman had occupied, Atwill came to him
and said, " I say Dawson, you are serving the warships, and I understand they keep good cigars and tobacco
on board. Tou might get me some of that tobacco and a few cigars." Dawson told me he got the first lot
and gave it to Mr. Atwill, and the second lot he left in charge of the watch-house keeper for Mr. Atwill.
9730. "Was that given without payment ? Tes.
9731. Did he say what quantity of tobacco or cigars there was ? No ; but I should think he would not
undertake to get too much.
9732. Did Dawson say that Mr. Atwill requested him to obtain from the warships tobacco and cigars?
Tes ; I told Dawson I should give this matter to the Commission. He said well, if you do so, I shall
state the truth about it.
9733. "Were you in your shop on Saturday night week ? I was.
9734. "Was there a concourse of people near your premises that night ? Yes.
9735. "Were they Chinese or Europeans ? Europeans.
9736. About how many were assembled ? Erom 300 to 500 I should say. They had my pavement
blocked, and the best portion of the road.
9737. What extent of the road did they cover ? Nearly across to the other side.
9738. How long were they assembled there ? For about half an hour.
9739. And what caused them to assemble there ? "Well, on going over to inquire, I saw a man with blood
on his neck, and I asked him what was the matter — had he met with an accident ? He replied " No, we
have been gambling in a Chinaman's shop ; we had a dispute, and one of the fellows jumped on my neck."
9740. "Was he assaulted by a European ? Tes.
9741. "What shop were they gambling in? I cannot say.
9742. "Were there no police there ? I saw some there, but they made no arrest.
9743. Did they not attempt to disperse the mob ? No.
9744. "What time of the night was it ? About 9 o'clock.
9745. Did the mob disperse itself ? Tes ; the police left them to.
9746. The row was over a gambling dispute ? Tes.
9747. In a f am-tan shop ? Tes ; I saw the man who was injured talking to some policemen at the corner
of Bridge-street half an hour afterwards.
9748. Who were the policemen ? Constable Whelan ; and afterwards Sergeant Higgins and Senior-
constable Adair came along.
9749. Was Inspector Atwill there at all ? No, I did not see him.
9750. Tou say you do not know the quantity of cigars that were given to Inspector Atwill by Dawson ?
No ; I know nothing further than what Dawson told me. He said he held his commission for supplying
the warships from Admiral Tryon, and he dare not bring off too much.
9751. Would he not have to purchase them there ? He might have purchased them, but he did not tell
me he did so.
9752. What reason would there be for Mr. Dawson making a present of tobacco and cigars to Mr. Atwill?
Well, I understood it was because he gave Dawson the straight tip to move out of his place rather than
remain to have the place taken from him, as he (Atwill) was going to oppose Lindeman's license for the
hotel and the shop Dawson occupied formed part of the premises of the hotel.
272—2 1 9753.
250 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. T. Nock. 0753. But Dawson having a separate business, apart from the hotel, how would Inspector Atwill's taking
f * > action against Lindeman, the licensee of the hotel, affect him, Dawson ? Because Dawson was a tenant of
11 Nov. ,1891. Lindeman's, and I suppose the reason was that Dawson would have had to shift if Lindeman lost his
license ; he would have had to go immediately, that is.
9/54. Would that have seriously embarrassed Dawson ? It might have done, if he could not get another
place. But at that time there was a place vacant in the immediate vicinity which the inspector told him
he could get.
9755. Tour idea is that Dawson made the present to Inspector Atwill because the inspector told him he
was going to procure the condemnation of Lindeman's license ? Tes ; that is what Dawson told me.
9756. Do you think that is sufficient reason for Da.wson making a present to Inspector Atwill ? That is
the impression in my mind.
9757. If that were so, how came it that the present was not voluntarily made — I understood you to say
in the course of your statement that it was Mr. Atwill himself who suggested that Dawson should bring
the cigars or tobacco to him ? Tes.
9758. Then should not it have been the other way about — that is to say, that Dawson, desiring to make
a present to Inspector Atwill should himself have suggested it in the first place? "Well, I suppose
Dawson did not see it in that light until the matter was put to him.
9759. Mr. Chambers is your accountant ? Tes.
97C0. And you say he was present when this statement was made to you ? With regard to Lindeman, yes.
9761. And also with regard to the cigars ? No.
9762. Only with regard to Lindeman and the £100 ? Tes.
9763. Did you ever speak to Inspector Atwill on the subject? No.
9764. 2Ir. Abigail."] Is it a fact that Chinese gambling in Lower George-street has decreased of late — say
within the last two months ? Well, it seems to have fallen off at times, and then it begins again. They
appear to know when the police are coming, and then they knock off, but begin again afterwards, and so on.
9765. Is it not true that a number or several of these gambling-shops have given up business because of
the falling off in attendance of late ? Tes, that is so ; but other shops have gained in consequence, so
that it is as broad as it is long for the matter of that.
9766. That is, when one place is closed up the people who have been in the habit of attending there, go into
other shops whose business perhaps is thus largely increased ; — is that what we are to understand? Tes.
9767. Tou think the gross number of those who attend the gambling-houses is the same as before,
although the number of shops may be less ? Exactly so.
9768. Is it not a fact that the attendance of Europeans at these places has greatly fallen off compared to
what it was, say, six months ago ? The falling off has not been so large during the last six months as the
last twelve months.
9769. Then you think the Chinese gambling in that quarter has fallen off during the last twelve months ?
Tes, it has done so. I know that Mr. Beale used to receive £38 a week from those houses near my place,
and I do not think he gets £14 now.
9770. After the Chinese have vacated the premises I suppose great difficulty is experienced in getting
European tenants for them ? Tes. I recommended a person to take one of these shops, and he said he could
not do so until they cleared the whole lot of the Chinese out of them, and made the places fit to live in.
9771. What is the matter with them ? They are in such a filthy dirty state.
9772. Are they not comparatively new houses ? So far as the buildings themselves are concerned, but it
would cost £20 at least to do each of them up.
9773. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Tou stated in your evidence before that you saw Constables Beadman and Carson
leaning over the counter in one of these gambling-shops, smoking opium — that you corrected, I think ?
Tes. They could not smoke opium leaning over the counter.
9774. Tou stated also that you went up to them, and spoke to them about being in these places, and you
suggested that they were there to serve their own ends ; — what are we to understand from that particular
part of your evidence ? Well, it means that they were not seemingly there to serve the public interests.
I may say that this question bears on what the President said to me when I was here previously, being
examined on this subject, and which does not look very well in print. I refer to the remark of the
President, on some evidence of mine about the police, that " every man has his own form of delights."
But I take it that a police officer is not supposed to have any form of delight but doing his duty; he is
not supposed to be found mixing up with gamblers when he is on duty.
9775. Do you think it is possible for the police to discover what is going on in these gambling-dens for
the purpose of proceeding against the proprietors of them unless they make use of objectionable characters
for the purpose of working up evidence to that end? If that was so how came they to say that "nothing
could be done," as they had Members of Parliament at their backs, and that the properties were owned
by influential citizens. That does not look very much as if they were bent on doing their duty.
9776. .Are you positive that you saw those constables go up to Chinese gamblers and slap them on the
back, and ask them who won the last game, or words to that effect ? I have given my evidence here on
oath, and from that I will not go back.
9777. But I want you to be quite sure now, after reflection. We have had witnesses here since you were
under examination, and I want to give you an opportunity of thinking over the matter as to whether you
really had substantial foundation for the statement that you had seen those policemen clap gamblers on the
back in a friendly manner, and ask them who won the last game ;— have you seen them do that ? I have.
9778. And you have heard them ask, " Who won the last game" ? Tes; or whether it was Dick, or some
other man, won the game, and how much he got out of it.
9779-80. If any one has denied the accuracy of a statement such as that which you made to the Commission
on a former occasion, and have now repeated, he has not spoken the truth ? Certainly not. I should
say it was false. I may say that the conversation which I had with Beadman was repeated in the presence
of a third party ; that is the conversation in which I asked him to let me make use of the statement made
by him as to the ownership of the Chinese houses, and he said I must think him a fool -to do so.
9781. Who was the third party on that occasion ? One of my men serving at the counter.
9782. Was that since you first gave evidence here ? No ; before that. The first conversation I had with
him was twelve months ago, if not more ; and as we were alone my statement would not go for more than
his. But on the occasion I am now referring to I saw my man serving him in the shop, and I asked him
why
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUSES OF EVIDENCE. 251
why he still continued to go to the Chinese gambling-shop in question in the face of my caution. He gave Mr. T. Nock,
me exactly the same answer as before, which I have told you ; and when I asked him — as he had now repeated ' — ->— "n
it twice — whether he would allow me to make use of the statement, he said, " Tou must think me a b ll Nov., 1891.
fool to let you do that." I said in answer to that, ""Well this man has heard what you have said anyway."
9783. And what did he say in reply ? He said nothing ; but simply turned on his heel and walked out.
0784. Have you met either Beadman or Carson since you gave evidence here on the first occasion ? I
have passed them scores of times, but have not entered into conversation with ihern. I have heard them
pass unkind remarks about me.
9785. Tou do not salute each other when you meet ? No ; I have looked them straight in the face, and
they have pointed at me as I passed them.
9786. Tou have not had any conversation with them at all ? No.
9787. Have you had any conversation with Inspector Atwill ? None whatever.
9788. Have you met him in any way whatever ? Tes ; I met him the other day as I was going out of the
shop, and he acknowledged me and said, " Good day" ; but he said it as if he would have been glad to
escape doing so if he could.
9789. Tou expressed your opinion to the Colonial Secretary that many more arrests would have been
made on the occasion of the raid but for warning having been given ? Tes.
9790. Now, were you in a position to state that warning had been given, or did you know any person who
had heard that warning had been given before the police arrived on the scene ? Those men are afraid to
state were they get their information from.
97.91. What men do you refer to ? The European gamblers.
9792. They are afraid to say what they know ? Tes ; I have proof of it. A man came to me about
three weeks or amonth ago, at 10 o'clock one Saturday morning, and said, " Tou people are fools ; you
think you are going to have us to-night ; but we have got the office, and you will see how we shall walk
out when the police come in." I think he mistook the League for the Commission.
9793. That was three weeks ago, you say ? Tes ; probably more than that.
9794 And did this man state to you that he had information that the police would be round on that
occasion ? Tes ; he said that they heard that the police would be round at 9 o'clock.
9795. Who was the man ? I would rather not give his name.
9796. I think you must ? But the Commission will not protect me or
9797. President.] The law of the country will ? I think not, sir.
9798. Well, we cannot enter into a debate with you on that point now ; if the Commission think it necessary
that the man's name should be revealed, I think you should reveal it, the question raised being of such an
important character ? That may be, Mr. President, but the Commission will not protect me, or that man.
9799. Tou might just as well reason that way with regard to Lindeman, or any other man ; but the
Commission are not poing to enter into a debate with you as to what you are going to state or to withhold
in giving your evidence here ; if we thiuk it necessary to know the man's name you will have to reveal
it. So far we have had too much hearsay evidence, and we have tried to get at the truth with regard to
statements that have been made here, we have been met with, " Oh, So-and-so told me," or something
equally as intelligible or convincing.
9800. Mr. Hawthorne.] Tou must see that your evidence is really of little value at this stage unless you
give us an opportunity of verifying the truth of what you state; for the sake of preserving your own
reputation for veracity you should give the man's name ; — can you not see that r* Well, it appears to
me that I have given my evidence here on oath, and that ought to be sufficient. Besides, as I have said,
the Commission will not protect me or the man whose name I may drag into the affair.
9801. Mr. Abigail.] Here is your protection clearly defined in the Act (44 Vic. No. ]), by which we
derive our authority to examine you ; it says : "Any witness appearing before any such Commission shall
have the same protection, and be subject to the same liabilities in any civil or criminal proceedings, as a
witness giving evidence in any case tried in the Supreme Court."
9802. Mr. Hawthorne.] I think, Mr. Nock, you had better make up your mind to give us the name of
this man ; you have given us information in connection with Mr. Lindeman of a far more serious
character ? That is a different matter. Mr. Lindeman would be missed if anything happened to him,
but if they (the police) got hold of a wharf labourer on whom they had a "down" and ran him in for
nothing ait all, nothing would be heard of it very likely.
9803. That is only an opinion you are passing ? I am stating what I believe to be the true facts.
9804. President.] So far as I am personally concerned, I do not attach any importance to the name being
revealed as a means of throwing any light on the subject ; nevertheless, the question has been put to you,
and I would like you to answer it freely, and then we can summon the man to attend or not just as we
please. Tou must understand that any weight to be attached to your testimony will depend upon some of
your statements being corroborated ; — now I want to get a corroboration' of the statement you have made
here with regard to a warning being given ? Mr. Bowker said it to me in the presence of Mr. Chambers.
9805. Mr. Bowker is the man who made this 'statement to you about a month ago ? Tes. I asked him
to tell me where he got his information from, and he refused to tell me, on the ground that he would be
a marked man if he did so. I know that I have to put up with insults now that I would not submit to if
I could get at them.
9806. Mr. Abigail.] Have you made a complaint about this to the Inspector-General of Police ? It
would not be much use until we get somebody at the head of the Department who is fit for the position.
9807. Are we to infer from that that you think the Inspector- General is not fit for his position? Cer-
tainly ; the whole Department is demoralised.
[The witness withdrew.]
[Note. — Mr. Nook appeared at a later stage and informed the Commission that since he had been in giving his
evidence Mr. Lindeman had complained of the statements which he had made with respect to him (Lindeman), that they
were calculated to do him harm, and that consequently he should withdraw his custom from the firm of Felton and Nock.
Mr. Nock made this explanation with a view of showing the difficulty he laboured under as a witness giving his evidence
before this Commission.]
To the President, Chinese Gambling Inquiry Commission, —
Sir KM-, George-strcefc, 20 November, 1891.
In the course of my examination before your Commission on Wednesday last you remarked that my evidence
had not been substantiated in all cases. I would therefore like to state that, though such may be the case, it does not
necessarily follow that my statements are not true, and cannot be substantiated, for if I myself had had the slightest idea
of
252 CHINESE OAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. T. Nock, of the punishment my telling the truth has imposed upon our firm I would have hesitated to have come forward in the
/— ^-^-*— \ way I did. Having seen many of the witnesses who have given evidence, I find that in some cases they have withheld
11 Nov., 1891. facts which could have borne me out, and they have explained to me that they have held by the police, through the
sacredness attached to a constable's oath in Court, and they being without influence, and liable to be arrested at any
moment on a false charge (such as the recent sailor's case), has prevented them from divulging all they knew, and I must
say my sympathies are with them.
As regards this Chinese gambling business and other forms of gambling, say that if the police did their duty (as in
some cases they are now doing) the evil would soon be stamped out, and injustice on other people, as in the case of the
tenants in this neighbourhood, by increased rent on their leases, combined with loss of trade by money going into illegitimate
channels, would, in a great measure, be reduced. Now, sir, I would ask you the question who will recoup us our loss, say
even the excessive rent paid to the landlord, which is, indeed, no small item during the last ten years ?
During the passing of the Chinese Restriction Act wo, who are sufferers by the loss of the genuine Chinese trade, to
the extent of £500 per annum, knowing that the stoppage of the emigration was for the good of the public generally, made
no complaint, although such stoppage has caused those Chinese who still remain to be independent, and, consequently,
seeing their opportunity, take up fan-tan as an easy mode of living well without any hard work ; for those merchants who,
at one time, did their business through encouraging immigration, now employ these men who are left to carry on this
gambling business. I would instance the case of my neighbour, who is a cabinet-maker, carrying on a legitimate business,
he having frequent quarrels with his men ; upon my inquiring the cause he informed me that, as no more Chinamen were
coming into the country, his men were lazy and independent, and, on being remonstrated with, they have told him they
conld get an easier living by assisting at one of these fan-tan shops, and fin fact some of them have left him to do so,
making those still remaining working for him demand increased rates of pay, and, knowing his position, do less work.
The " boycott " placed upon our establishment by the Chinese (who form a considerable portion of the population
down here), and the police, whose interest in this neighbourhood is very great, has nearly ruined our business, and we, who
had hoped for speedy relief, find that we are simply punished for taking the steps we did.
Trusting that this letter will be attached to my evidence given before you,
I am, &c. ,
THOMAS NOCK.
Mr. Chambers recalled and examined : —
Mr. 9808. President.'] I believe you were present at an interview between Mr. Nock and Mr. Lindeinan last
Chambers, month ? Yes, I was.
'"!T"'A~~ ""^ 9809. Can you state what was said in the course of that conversation relative to the matter which this
I ov.,18 Commission is investigating ? Well, nothing much was said about the Chinese while I was there.
9810. Were you present when Lindeman told Mr. Nock that Mr. Atwill had come to him (Lindemau)
and told him that he should give him £100 as a reward for allowing him to get a license for the " Hope-
makers' Arms Hotel," or something to that effect ? Tes ; I was present when that was said, and Linde-
man also said that had there been anyone else present besides his wife and the barmaid he would have
brought it before the proper authorities.
9811. Was that the whole of the conversation ?■ I cannot say whether that was the whole of the conver-
sation between them.
981.2. Was anything said about anyone obtaining cigars or tobacco from the warships free of duty for
Mr. Atwill ? I did not hear that said.
9813. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you remember a man named Bowker coming into your shop about a month
ago and saying to Mr. Nock that it was no use the Commission thinking to catch the gamblers — that they
always had the office ? Tes.
9814. Tell us the exact words that were used if you can remember them ? Bowker said that they never
would get at the bottom of this Chinese gambling, because the word went round when raids were goirig
to be made, and I think he also said that there was to be a raid made that night.
9815. Do you think he meant you to infer by that that some members of the police force gave infor-
mation to him ? Tes ; that was my impression.
9816. Did he say so ? I am under the impression that he said so.
9817. He was speaking to Mr. Nock at the time ? Tes ; and I overheard that part of the conversation. I
am usually upstairs, but I happened to be in the shop at the time.
9818. Did Bowker say that he had been a witness before the Commission ? No. He did not say anything
to me at all — not at that time. I have only seen him twice to speak to.
9819. Tou do not know whether it was before or after he came up here ? I should say it was after.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. C. H. E. Lindeman called in and examined : —
Mr. C.H. E. 9820. President.'] What is your name in full ? Charles Henry Edward Lindeman.
Lmdeman. 9821. What are you ? I am a restaurant-keeper at present — I have been a hotel-keeper.
'^~A~~~^ 9822. Were you a resident of Lower George-street at one time ? I was, from 1888 to 1889.
II Nov., 1891. 9323. "What business did you carry on there ? I was the licensee of the "Bopemakers' Arms Hotel."
9824. When you took the house I suppose you had to apply for the license in the ordinary way ? Tes ;
I got a transfer of the license.
9825. Did you experience any difficulty in getting the license ? Before I go any further I should like to
say this much, with regard to the person that I am to give evidence about, that if he remains in his present
position, my chances of obtaining another license are very remote, and I would therefore beg to be
excused from saying anything which would further endanger my position in that respect, especially as I
intend to apply for another license shortly.
9826. What you have said now will be recorded in evidence, and it amounts to this — that you are afraid
to give evidence, lest when you apply for a license a certain police officer will be your enemy, and pre-
vent you getting the license. But I may tell you now that it is imperative that you should give this
evidence, and there is no escape for you. If you do not give the evidence we shall have to proceed
against you in the ordinary way. Tou are aware, I suppose, that the Commission is clothed with the
same power as a Supreme Court Judge, and if you render it necessary we shall have to take steps to
compel you to answer the questions which are put to you. Now, when you applied for the license of the
" Bopemakers' Arms," had you any difficulty in getting the license ? My application was opposed.
9827. Who was the officer of the police who opposed the license being granted ? Mr. Atwill.
9828. And what grounds did he give for opposing your application ? Simply that I was not a fit person
to hold a license.
9S29. But what particular objection had he to you— did that come out in evidence ? It was in this way :
When I first came to this Colony I was employed in a club, and I afterwards took a private hotel "in
Princes- street, which I kept till last June. While there on one occasion my wife gave a bottle of stout to
a certain individual, who happened to be an informer, and as a consequence I was fined for sly-grog selling.
9830.
CHINESE OAMBUNG COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.. 253
9830. That was one of the grounds ? Yes. Mr. C. H. E,
oqqo' ^hat °ther grcmilds did ne state in the Court at tne time ? Simply that I was not a fit person. I^deman.
9f^2. That was for the reason alleged. "Was there any objection to the house ? Not at that time. i(~^~~^7^i
9833. But you got the license ? Yes ; I got the license. ' ov" 1891'
OQqr' tvj11 obtainpd y°ur license in the teeth of the opposition from Inspector Atwill ? ' I did.
J83o. JJid you "bring any evidence as to character when you made your application for the license ? No ;
1 simply engaged Mr. Slattery to appear for me.
qqq7 tv j t°U hayC any conversation witn Inspector Atwill when the license was granted ? Not at the time.
qqqu w .nsPector At'wlH strongly oppose your getting the license in the Court ? In the first instance.
9838. Was it adjourned then ? That is when the transfer was granted. The evidence really bears on
the second occasion at the time of renewal. You must understand the hotel had a 61 -feet frontage to
.Lower George-street. The- property changed hands, and on a new landlord coming in he said he would
take one side of it for a shop, and that was done. I went to Inspector Atwill and told him about it, I
being the licensee, and he would not believe it. He said it was my doing.
9839. He objected to the accommodation being reduced ? Yes ; I told the landlord, but he took no
notice, and went on with the alterations.
9840 Who was the owner ? The owner was Mr. C. C. Scarrett, Mr. Kelso King being the agent. When
the alterations were complete, Mr. Atwill told me I would not get the license. I asked him why, and he
said I had acted against his orders. I said, " Look here, Mr. Atwill, I am in an unfortunate position. The
landlord wants the rent, and I cannot stop him from coming in." When the alterations were completed,
the shops were let. On the annual licensing day coming round, that is, the 30th June, 1889, I had to
apply for a renewal of the license, and I had a notice of objection sent to me by Inspector Atwill.
9841. Whatwas the objection ? That the house had not got sufficient accommodation.
9842. Then it came on in Court again, and Inspector Atwill again opposed the license ? Yes.
9843. And was it granted again, notwithstanding the objection ? It was adjourned for a week, and the
magistrates visiting the premises in the meantime. Then, there being only two on the Bench, the case was
adjourned again to get a third magistrate, and the application was eventually granted by a majority of the
Bench.
9844. Inspector Atwill never withdrew his opposition then ? No, he did not.
9845. And is that the whole history of your connection with this public-house, so far as Mr. Atwill is
concerned ? Yes ; excepting that after I got the license, I sold out right away, being anxious to get out
of it. I sold four hours after I got the license. Meantime Mr. Atwill came to me in the evening, and
said, "You ought to give me at least £100 for letting you get that license." This was in the bar.
9846. What did you say to that ? I said, " I have nothing to thank you for, Mr. Atwill."
9847. As a matter of fact, you say he violently opposed you getting the license under any circumstances ?
Yes.
9848. Did you think he was serious in saying you ought to give him £100 for getting the license, seeing
that he so strongly Opposed your application ? I can give no opinion as to that. All I know is that he
never was very friendly to me.
9849. Do you think any sane man would expect you to give him £100 under the circumstances you have
related to the Commission ? No ; I certainly would not.
9S50. What further conversation, if any, did you have with him ? I never spoke to him further than that.
9851. You simply pooh-poohed the idea of giving the £100 ? Yes.
9852. Who was in the bar at the time this occurred besides yourselves ? My wife and the barmaid.
9853. What is the name of the barmaid ? She is a Mrs. Dickenson now. Shields was her maiden name,
and at that time she was unmarried.
9854. Where does she live now ? I cannot say exactly ; I think she lives at Pyrmont.
9855. Can you find out ? Yes ; I dare say I can ; she called at my restaurant a few days ago.
9856. What ia her husband ? He was a fireman ; but he is now working in a store in Sydney, I think.
9857. Do you know what store ? I do not.
9858. We would like to know this person's address ;— you say she lives at Pyrmont ? Yes.
9859. Does she come to your place frequently ? Not frequently.
9860. Do you know any one who is is acquainted with her address ? I do not.
9861. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Nock as to Mr. Atwill obtaining some cigars, duty free,
from one of the warships ? No.
9862. You have been carrying on business as a hotel-keeper in Lower George-street for twelve months?
Yes.
9863. Were you ever prosecuted by the police for any offence during the time you carried on business in
Lower George-street ? No. I may say that Inspector Atwill, who is in charge of that district, has got a
general down on foreigners. He has been heard to make the remark several times.
9864. May not that account for the large amount of Christian charity by which you are animated
towards him ? I do not know about that.
9865. You have no feeling towards him on that account ? No ; but I know he has slandered me in every
way. After I left Lower George-street in Juue I applied for a license for the " Labour in Vain Hotel "
in the central division, and Mr. Atwill told me that he would go up there and oppose me. I told him it
was not in his division. I got the license, and held it till last July.
9866. Did he give you any reason when he said he would oppose your application, as to why he would do
so? No.
9866J. When was that ? The license was transferred to me in July, 1889, and I held it for two years all
but a few days.
9867. Do you think it likely that he considered you acted rather sharply, having first represented to him
that you were helpless in the matter of getting a license for the house in Lower George-street, and then
selling out four hours after you got the license ; — do you think he was annoyed at that ? I do not see
why he should.
9868. How long did you stay in the " Bopemakers' Arms" after getting the renewal ? I got the renewal on
the Friday, and sold out the same afternoon, and it was on the evening of the same day he was in there —
that is Inspector Atwill. The transfer did not come up till the next Thursday.
9869. But he knew you had represented to him that you were helpless as regards your relations with
Scarrett, the landlord, and that you had sold your license immediately you had got the renewal, notwith-
standing his opposition ? Yes. 9870.
25i CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr.C. H. E. 9870. Might he not have been incensed at your having outwitted him in that respect ? I think not. It
Lindcman. wa8 the owner who was mostly concerned. Under the circumstances I do not think I would have' got
ii'v^tboi *De l'cense ou mJ own merits, considering the opposition there was against me.
'' 9871. But Inspector Atwill never withdrew his opposition, so that the owner could have no effect in that
case, and you, having got your license in the teeth of the police opposition, sold out four or five hours
after you got it ; — he knew that you had done that probably ? Certainly.
9872. Very well, then, might not that account for his apparent hostility to you which you complain of?
I cannot say that.
9873. Then you accuse him of having acted in determined opposition to you because you are a foreigner?
Well, I have been living in Church-hill, next the Port-street school, since 1883, and he frequently said he
would come and have me again for sly grog-selling.
9874. Do you not think he had sufficient against you as an applicant for a license on the ground of sly
grog-selling ? Tes ; but it would only disqualify me from holding a license after a lapse of five years.
9875. I suppose you know it is the custom of the police to inquire into the character of a person applying
for a publican's license ? Certainly.
9876. So that his opposition might have been simply an act of public duty ? Tes ; but he might be far
exceeding his duty, as I contend he was in my case.
9877. It was the duty of the inspector to place on record what he knew to be the facts. Did he appear
in Court when you applied for the license for the "Labour in Vain Hotel? " No.
9878. Did he n6t openly oppose the application ? No.
9879. Did you hear that he made any statement in writing, in the ordinary course of his duty, as to your
character ? No.
9880. Did you get your license on that occasion ? Tes.
9881. And the inspector in charge of that particular district did not bring up anything against you ? No.
9882. Does that look like persistent opposition on the part of Mr. Atwill ; — do not you think your accu-
sation against him is baseless ? No ; I do not.
9883. Is there not some anger or resentment left in you on account of his having brought a charge of
sly grog-selling against you ? I do not think so.
9884. You think your mind is quite free from any feeling of annoyance at his treatment of you on the
occasion you have referred to ? I go by his general conduct.
9885. Mr. Abigail."] How many licenses have you held in Sydney ? Two.
9886. And you have sold out of both ? No ; I have not sold out of the " Labour in Vain Hotel."
9887. Does the license stand in your name ? No ; I only hold the hotel. I transferred the license after
holding it for two years.
9888. Did you do so from fear of the police ? No.
9889. Did you get paid for it ? No. My intention was to remove to the Imperial Arcade (the Castle-
reagh-street frontage), the owners of which were applying for a license. •
9890. Tou meant to transfer your license to a better place ? No, the license could not be removed, and
there is no lease of the house. The owners of the " Imperial Arcade" were applying for a new license,
and I had made arrangements with them to take over the place.
9891. They would have transferred to you ? Certainly.
9892. Now, about the premises in Lower George-street, where Inspector Atwill made the remark to you
about the £100 ; — did you sell out of that house ? Yes.
9893. Did you make a profit on the transaction, or did you lose by it ? I did not exactly lose by it. It
was an insolvent estate, and I bought it at auction from the Offiqial Assignee. I would have stopped there
but that Inspector Atwill always seemed to have a. down on me. Krst, the furniture was not right, and
then something else was found fault with.
9894. What I want to know is, did you lose or make a profit on the transfer ? I made a small profit.
9895. But your real reason for wishing to get away from that hotel was that Inspector Atwill appeared
to be generally opposed to you ? Certainly ; but for that I might have remained there.
9896. Have you suspected any other member of the police force of having any animus against you ?
There is one, I think, but I cannot name him.
9897. Did the police watch you closely for Sunday selling in connection with the house in Lower George-
street? No, because I made it a rule not to open on Sunday. I had a big place in Princes-street — a
private boarding establishment — where I was engaged in looking after the place.
9898. That was the place in connection with which the police laid an information against you for sly-grog
selling, was it not? Yes. It happened in this way : One of the boarders wanted a bottle when he came
home, and my wife went to get it for him. A man came in afterwards, and said, " Can I have this
bottle of stout ?" My wife said, " It belongs to another gentleman, but we will get another one," and she
let him have it. That man was an informer, and that is how I came to be charged with sly-grog selling.
9899. Did you have a solicitor in Court ? Yes.
9900. And he put these facts before the Court? Yes.
9901. And the Court would not believe the statement ? No.
9902. Did you sell the bottle of stout ? Yes.
9903. Has any other member of the police force ever suggested to you at any time that you should give
him money or a present of any kind ? No.
9904. When Inspector Atwill suggested that you should "give him £100, did he laugh, or seem to speak
jestingly ? I do not think he did.
9905. Do you really think he was serious about the matter ? I thought so at the time.
9906. Why not have offered him the £100 ? Well, he might have taken me before a magistrate, and
charge me with offering him a bribe.
9907. Did that suggest itself to you at the time ? It may have done. 1 know he has done something of
that kind once — at least, so I have heard.
9908. In what case was that ? I cannot give the names, but I heard that certain Chinese offered him
a chest of tea or something, and when he prosecuted them, he said, " Here is a proof of it ; they tried to
bribe me."
9909. You raised some objection to giving evidence before this Commission ? Yes, I did.
9910. Why did you do so? Because what I say here will be remembered against me when I apply for
a license again. 9911.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE.
255
9911. Do you think your telling the truth will have any effect upon a Bench of Magistrates in the direc- ^r; ^- H< ■&
tion of inducing them to refuse you a license ? Well, if Inspector Atwill came to hear of it he would _i^J^^'
use all his influence against me, and I know he is an influential man down that quarter. n w0T j891.
9912. Apart from this one case, do you know much of Mr. Atwill's general conduct as a police officer ?
No, I do not.
9913. Have you ever heard of him as a man of bad character, or as being untruthful, or dishonest ? I
have not.
9914. Tou have never heard of him receiving bribes from anyone ? No.
9915. Or asking for anything in that way ? No.
9916. Then, apart from this one instance, in which you are concerned, you never heard anything detri-
mental to his character ? No.
9917. Have you heard it stated that Inspector Atwill is an efficient officer ? I have.
9918. While you were conducting that public-house down there, did you notice that the police generally
on that beat under Inspector Atwill's control performed their duties efficiently and conscientiously ?
Tes, so far as I know ; I have no fault to find with them.
9919. I think you stated that your wife was present, as well as the barmaid, when the inspector made that
remark to you about the £100 ? Tes.
9920. Was the barmaid thoroughly honest and truthful ? Tes ; I had her in my employ three years, and
gave her £1 a week; in fact I kept her six weeks when I had no hotel because of her good character.
9921. Will you endeavour to obtain her address ? Tes.
9922. Mr. Quong Tart.] Eegarding that £100, what hour of the day was it that Mr. Atwill came to you?
It was about 7 o'clock in the evening.
9923. Was he accompanied by anybody ? No ; he came in alone.
9924. How did the subject come up in the first place ? He simply said, " Tou got your license after all,
and you ought to give me at least £100 for that."
9925. Would you say from his appearance on that occasion that he was speaking seriously to you ? Well,
Inspector Atwill is always serious. Tou will very seldom see a smile on him.
9926. Tou say your wife and the barmaid were present on that occasion ? Tes.
9927. Mr. Hawthorne.] Would it appear to you, as a man of common-sense, at all reasonable for an
inspector of police, who has been a great number of years in the service, to come into an open bar, and
in the presence of two witnesses ask in an audible manner for a present of £100 ? I did think it was a
bit out of the way.
9928. Did you not think it very much " out of the way," as you put it ? Well, yes, I did.
9929. It appeared to you unreasonable that a man occupying such a responsible position should make a
suggestion to you of that kind ? It did.
9930. Have you as a general rule found Inspector Atwill to be a man of common-sense ? Well, I have
had very little dealings with him except to the extent I have told you.
9931. Have you generally found him to be a man of good judgment ? I can only speak of him from what
I have had to do with him, and that I have told you.
9932. Did he ever approach you previously in the same way, that is, to ask you for a present? No.
9933. Did Inspector Atwill ever meet you when you were alone ? Tes, frequently.
9934. Then, if he was really serious in what he said about this £100, it would have been more reasonable had
he asked you when you were alone — that is, in the absence of witnesses ? Certainly. I may mention that
I never met him after that occasion.
9935. Did Inspector Atwill often come to your place in Lower George-street ? He was there three times
previously, inspecting the place ; that is all.
9936. Did Inspector Atwill come in for a drink on that occasion ? No.
9937. What did he do when he first came in ? He said to me, " So you got it (meaning the license) after
all, then."
9938. And what was your reply ? He also said, " Tou ought to stand me at least £100 for it," and it
was then I replied that I did not think it was through him I got the license.
9939. Was no further remark passed ? No.
9940. Do you not think if Inspector Atwill had been in earnest on the matter he would have gone further
than that ? Well, he might have said something further ; but it is two years since this took place, and I
cannot remember everything that took place in detail.
9941. At a near guess, how many times do you think you have met Inspector Atwill since then ? I do not
think I have met him once to speak to, only when I met him in George-street shortly after, when I was
applying for the license for the " Labour in Vain Hotel."
9942. Did he oppose you? No ; he said he would, but he did not. It was not in his division.
9943. Did he ever make any reference to the question of the £100 after that? No; as I have said, I
think the only time I spoke to him afterwards was when he stopped me in Lower George-street, and said
he would oppose me in my application — that is, report against me — in the central division.
9944. Have you had a conversation with your wife in regard to this matter of the £100 since you were
summoned to give evidence here ? No.
9945. Did you know what you were called to give evidence upon before this Commission ? Tes. It
arose in a conversation in Mr. Nock's shop concerning the trouble there was about the Chinese being in
that neighbourhood, and as to the effect upon the rents down there.
9946. Were you then induced to state to Mr. IN ock, in the presence of other witnesses, about this £100
which you say the inspector asked you for ? Tes.
9947. Had you ever mentioned it to anyone previously ? No.
9948. How long is it since you applied for a transfer of the license for the Imperial Arcade ? I did
not apply, and there was no transfer. These are new premises. The manager applied for a license for
the Castlereagh-street frontage. The police did not know that I intended to take the place.
9949. It was your intention to have taken it if they had procured the license ? Tes ; they would have
transferred to me.
9950. Tou sold out of the " Eopemakers' Arms Hotel " four hours after obtaining a renewal of the
license ? Tes.
9951. Had you been in treaty before with the person to whom you s old out ? Tes.
9952. Then you sold out conditionally on your getting the renewal ? Tes. 9953.
256 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. C. H. E. 9953. Was the price and everything fixed? Yea. It was done through Ivan Henry, the hotel-broker.
Lindeman. 9954,. it Was scarcely reasonable to expect that you could sell the license of a house that had no lease to
"T-^""^ it ? I had a written promise of eighteen months.
• 11 Nov., 1891. 9955< The ]anciiord would not give you a lease ? He wanted more rent, and I would not give him more.
9956. Could you have got your lease if you had paid more rent ? Yes. The man I sold to treated
behind my back for a lease of five years.
9957. After you were spoken to by Inspector Atwill on the occasion when he suggested you ought " to stand
£100" was any remark made to you by Miss Shields, the barmaid, on the subject ? No ; it was not spoken of.
9958. Now, would it appear likely that a man in Mr. AtwilL's position, having consistently opposed your
getting a license for the hotel, should come and ask you for £100 as a kind of reward after you had
succeeded in getting it in spite of his opposition, to say nothing of the fact that he must have known if
such a thing were discovered against him it would have resulted in his expulsion from the force ? I can-
not say anything on that point. I certainly thought it very strange when he wept to the person
(Dawson) who was renting the shop and told him that he had better clear out of the shop, as, the original
lessee of the hotel, I would not get my license again.
9959. It was after that you got your license ? Yes, but before the renewal. .
9960. How long after you got your license was it that he came to you and said you ought to give him
£100 ? It was about six hours afterwards.
9961. Did he have anything to drink ? No.
9962. Did he seem to be in a jovial mood ; — did he laugh when he spoke to you ? No ; I never saw him
laugh, I think.
9963. But he might crack a joke without laughing, I suppose ? He might.
9964. Did you take what he said to you quite seriously ? Yes ; I thought he really did mean it. I asked
my wife afterwards if I should give him something, and she said I had better leave him alone, as he would
only have me up again.
9965. Did you ever approach Inspector Atwill again in any way after that ? No ; I thought it best to
let him and the whole matter alone.
9966. Then you let it rest for two and a half years, and then mentioned the matter publicly in a shop in
the neighbourhood ? I first spoke about it to Mr. Nock. I have known him nine years.
9967. Did you not think it was a serious matter to speak about in a shop in that way ? No ; it did not
strike me as being out of the way to do so when it was the truth.
9968. Did you not tell him you were prepared to give evidence on the subject ? No, I did not ; I asked
him not to speak of it afterwards, because I was afraid of Mr. Atwill's influence being used against me if
I applied for another license.
9969. Did you know what you were called to speak upon when you were summoned to attend this Com-
mission? Yes; Mr. Nock wrote me a letter. [Letter, dated 30th October, 1891, handed in and read,
as follows : — " Mr. C. H. B. Lindeman. Dear Sir,— As I told you the other day that I would lay what
you told me before the Commission, I have now done so, and no doubt they will summon you ; and as
the statement you made is an honest one, I trust you will, when called upon, give them the exact, facts as
stated to me. I may mention that yours is only one out of a good many like statements, and as the Com-
mission is held with closed doors you will have nothing to fear, and I am sure they will compensate you
for your loss of time. As I have no doubt you will have to frive them my version of the affair, I trust you
will' give them all you know. — Yours truly, Thomas Nock."]
9970. Did you make any reply to that letter ? I did not.
9971. You stated just now that you intended what you said to Mr. Nock to be a confidential communi-
cation ? Yes.
9972. Did Mr. Nock tell you he would bring the matter before the Commission ? Yes ; he did so after
1 his conversation passed iD the shop. He said he would bring it before the Eoyal Commission. I
said, " You had better not ; I will not have my name brought in there." But he said he would do so, and
I then left.
U973. You evidently did not feel very much about it, or you would have pressed him further ;— did you
speak to Mr. Nock to-day just before you came in here ? Yes ; I told him that it would injure me.
9974. Did you say anything about withdrawing your custom from his shop ? I said I would never go
near him any more.
9975. If it was a truthful statement you made to Mr. Nock, do you not think you were justified in
exposing the action of a man so high up in the police force as Inspector Atwill ? Well, I do not think
I would gain as much as I might lose.
9976. Mr. Abigail.'] You take it more in the light of a personal matter, and fear that in making a state-
ment of that kind you will be in danger of bringing the police down upon you ? Certainly.
9977. Mr. Hawthorne.] Have you been in conversation with any of the police force since you received
notice to attend here ? No, I have not.
9978. You are really afraid of the police injuring you ? Yes, in this matter of applying for a license.
9979. Mr. Quong Tart.] Have you ever been summoned for any breach of the law as a publican in
Lower George-street ? No ; I have never been summoned for any offence since I have held a license.
9980. When Inspector Atwill came into your bar and stated to you that you ought to give him £100, did
he speak in a subdued tone, or in an ordinary tone, so that anyone in the immediate vicinity could hear
him ? Just in an ordinary tone. He came up to the counter.
9981. He did not speak so that only you could hear ? No.
9982. Did he address his conversation to the whole of you — that is, your wife and the barmaid and
yourself ? Well, no ; the counter is 20 feet long, and they were, I think, at one end of it.
9983. Then he must have spoken in a loud tone for them to hear him ? He spoke in the ordinary way.
9984. Did it not strike you that if the inspector wanted to make a request for £100 to you seriously,
he would have called you to one side so that only you could hear ? Well, yes, he might have done so.
9985. Supposing that you were going to ask anyone for £100 under similar circumstances — that is, if you
risked so much by the fact of your asking it in the event of it becoming known, — do you think you would
be likely to seriously make such a request in the presence of third parties ? No ; personally I would not.
9986. How was it that you kept this matter penned up, as it were, for two and a half years, and then let
it out in the course of a general conversation in Mr. Nock's shop ? We were speaking about things in
general, as I have stated before ; and I was speaking of Mr. Atwill's attentions to me. There is a house,
the
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 257
the "Blue Anchor Hotel," close by which was frequented by the blue-jackets day and night, and which did Mr. C. H. E.
a wholesale Sunday trade ; and yet no complaint was made about that, although he was always down upon Lmdeman.
me about the furniture or something. /k~^~~~ "\
9987. Inspector Atwill passed there frequently, and yet did not molest them in any way ? No. 11 Nov., 1891.
9988. And you concluded that as he treated you differently he had a down upon you ? Tes.
9989. Did it strike you that he was bribed in any way ? That I cannot say.
9990. But you think he treated you with exceptional harshness ? Yes.
9991. On the face of it do you not think Inspector Atwill must have had a very high opinion of you to
ask you for the sum of £100 ? That I cannot say. . d i
9992 :. Well you appear to be pretty well up in the Licensing Laws ; did it not strike you that Mr.
Atwill was doing a rather dangerous thing in asking you for this £100 ? It did.
9993. How did the conversation arise in Mr. Nock's shop ;— were you the first person to start on the
Chinese question, or was Mr. Nock ? It came up in this way : Felton and Nock have two shops. Mr.
iSock was saying that he took the lease of a shop next to him simply to keep the Chinese away. Then
he let to a person who found he could not pay the rent, and so Nock had to take it again— all on account
of the Chinese ; and he said the Chinese nuisance ought to be done away with. Then the question of
Freemasonry came up, and I said I was not a Freemason, but Mr. Dawson was, and then Mr. Nock
mentioned that Dawson had told him that Inspector Atwill advised him (Dawson) to clear out of his
shop, m the building for which I had held a license as " Eopemakers' Arms." It was when the conversation
reached this point I told Mr. Nock that Inspector Atwill had actually come to me for £100, on account
of my getting the license, and Mr. Nock then said he would inform the Eoyal Commission.
9994. Did your wife or the young woman in the bar say anything to you about Inspector Atwill asking
you for the £100 ? No. I think I made the remark that if anyone else had been present besides
ourselves I would have taken the matter up. But not much credit would have been given to a barmaid —
just because of the name, although she might be of excellent character— and my wife, of course, would
not have been taken as evidence.
[The witness withdrew.]
THURSDAY, 12 NOVEMBER, 1S91.
present: —
The Mayor of Sydney (Mr. Aldeuman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-President.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq..
JOHN STTTAET HAWTHOkNE, Esq.
Cheang Ah Sang called and examined : —
9995. Mr. Abigail.] Where do you live ? I live at Sing Suen's, 19S, Lower George-street. Oheang
999G. What occupation do you follow? I am doing nothing now. I was in Tiy War Tong's for about Ah Sang,
a week. ^— _^_— -s
9997. What were you doing in that employ ? I was cook. I was also in Bow Sing Tong's, carrying on a 12 Nov., 1891,
chemist's shop.
9998. AVhat ether business is carried on there besides the chemist's shop? Gambling inside.
9999. Both fan-tan and the lottery ? Yes.
10000. Who are the owners of the gambling part of the premises ? Nug Quay, Ah Tontr, Lee Sow, and
Ah Mow. Those are all I know of.
lOOUl. They formed a syndicate? Yes; a company.
10002. Who is the chief of the firm ? They are all equal.
10003. The profits are equally divided ? Yes.
10004. Now do these men run gambling-houses in other portions of the city and suburbs, or country
parts ? I believe Lee Sow has several other places, but I do not know about the other partners.
10005. Is the gambling in connection with this place particularly extensive ? No ; it is not very large.'
10006. Do Europeans as well as Chinese frequent it ? There are no European gamblers there — only
Chinese.
10007. Do you take any part in the gambling ? No.
10008. Have there been any prosecutions against that place ? Not since I have been there.
10009. Have the police ever visited it while gambling has been carried on ? Yes, several times.
10010. What did they do ? They simply came inside and warned them not to gamble.
10011. Has there ever been any quarrelling or fighting in that place ? Not since I have been there.
10012. How long have you been, there ? Only one week.
10013. Have you heard of money being paid to settle disputes that occurred through gambling ? No.
10014. Have you a very intimate knowledge of Ung Quay ? I have known him a long time.
10015. How does he make his living? I know he has a merchant's place in Lower George-street for one
thing.
10010. Do you not know that he is connected with a number of gambling-houses ? I know that he is in
the Bow Sing Tong and Tiy War Tong.
10017. Have you ever held shares in any of these places ? I have had a share in the Yun War Goon —
that is, late Suen, Long, & Co.
10018. What amount of profit did you derive from that ? We received no profits — nothing was divided.
10019. Who were you associated with ? Lee Sow and Ah Chung.
10020. Was there no gambling carried on while you held your share ? No.
10021. Have you ever heard of a portion of the winnings in these places being set apart for the police?
No.
10022. Have you never heard of the police receiving sums of money or presents in kind from one or the
other of these gambling-houses ? No, I never heard of it.
10023. Were there proper accounts kept, of receipts and disbursements in connection with your establish-
ment ? Yes, books were kept.
272—2 K 10024
258 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Cheang 10024. Where are the books ; — who has them ? The books are burnt when they are finished.
Ah Sang. 10025. "When a number of persons start a gambling-place they have to put down so much money, do
12JJ1891 *key not '' ^ es'
Vl' ' 1002G. Well, what becomes of that; — how is it disbursed ? Each man puts in so much, and one man holds
the bag (that is, the funds), and books are kept, in which are kept all the expenditure — everything is
put down in the book.
10027. In your particular case it was not a successful partnership, since you did not divide any profits ?
It was not successful. It did not pay, as we merely kept the premises, and there was no gambling.
10028. Do you mean to say there was no gambling carried on during your partnership ? No, it was more
of a lodging-house than anything else.
10029. Was there no fan-tan gambling carried on there ? There was fan-tan gambling.
10030. To what extent, and who were the parties that participated in it ? It was just a few of the Chinese
gambling amongst themselves, for a few pence.
10031. Why did you say previously that there was no gambling? I thought you meant now — at the
present time.
10032. How long is it since it stopped ? Over ten weeks.
10033. Do you know of any of your countrymen or Europeans losing large sums of money at fan-tan
gambling ? No, I have not heard of it.
10034. Do you ever visit Goulburn-street ? Yes ; sometimes I go there.
10035. Do you know that gambling among the Chinese is carried on largely there ? I visit the stores — I
do not go among the gambling-houses.
10036. Mr. Quong Tart.~\ Tou remember a row that took place at Tiy Wortong's ; — do you remember the
cause of that ? I remember a row occurring there at the time I was cook.
10037. Who employed you at that place ? Lee Sow engaged me to cook at that place.
10038. How much per week did you receive ? I got £1 per week.
10039. Now tell us very shortly about the row that occurred there ? The row arose over the food — the
quality of the food — and Lee Sow came down stairs and spoke to me about it, and at first I just allowed
him to go on, and took no notice of him. But one Sunday he came down to the kitchen and we had some
more words, and he struck me in the chest, and I fell. I got up and struck him on the nose. I had a
ring on my finger on the hand I struck him with. And he went out and got a policeman to arrest me.
10040. He took a warrant out for you ? No, there was no warrant — the policeman came into the kitchen
and arrested me. I was bailed out by a countryman of mine, Ah Wah, and on the. following day some
of my countrymen came together and advised me to settle it, Ung Quay being among the number.
10041. Had Ung Quay any connection with Tiy Wortong ; — did you ever see him in there ? No, I never
saw him at Tiy Wortong.
10042. Have you seen him in Bow Sing Tong's ? Yes, I have seen him there.
10043. Do you know of any respectable Chinese being connected with gambling in Lower George-street ?
I do not know of any Chinese merchant connected with gambling in Lower George-street.
10044. Do you know who owns the place you described as Yun War Goon ; — who pays the rent ? I do
not know who pays the rent. It is paid by the company.
10045. Do you know who pays the rent of the Bow Sing Tong ? I do not.
10046. Do you know who owns the place called Ting Sing? Yes; Ting Sing is a gambling-shop, and is
owned by Lee Sow and another.
10047. Do you know who backs up Lee Sow with money ? No.
10048. How long have you known Lee Sow ? Only for about a year.
10049. Where did he come from ? From Vegetable Creek.
10050. Do you know any other gambling-houses that Lee Sow is connected with ? No ; that is all I know.
10051. Is Lee Sow a particular friend of Ung Quay's ? Yes ; Lee Sow is a very great friend of Ung Quay's.
10052. Did 'Ung Quay know you were employed at a gambling-house? Yes.
10053. Do you know whether Ung Quay has ever endeavoured to put down gambling or not ? I could not say.
[The witness withdrew.]
[Note. — The question 10016, witness in correcting his evidence makes a note to the effect that he
does not know whether Mr. James Ung Quay has a share in Tiy War Tong or not.]
Mr. Dawson recalled, and examined :-
Mr. Dawson. 10054. Mr. Abigail.'] We have called you a second time, Mr. Dawson, to inquire about the statement you
/~^*^^~\ made on a former occasion, as to Mr. Atwill and the presents of cigars and tobacco you made to him on
12 Nov., 1891. certain occasions. We should like you to state to the Commission in as brief and clear terms as possible
the whole of the circumstances connected with that ? Well, sir, when I made that statement I did not
intend it to come to — but I made the statement, and I cannot deny it. In explaining the circumstances I
shall have to go back two and a half years.
10055. Is it two and a half years ago since it took place? It is about that. I was living next to the
" Eopemakers' Arms Hotel," in Lower George-street, when I came to Sydney. I had been there some
months when Mr. Atwill came to me and said, " Dawson, you had better get another place ; I am going
to oppose the license of this place" — meaning the " Eopemakers' Arms," of which my shop formed a part.
I saw a shop empty about two months after, and I took it. I thanked Mr. Atwill for telling me about
the matter at the time. " Well, Dawson," said he to me, "You are supplying the men-of-war in the
harbour, and you might get me a good piece of tobacco, or a few cigars now and then." I told him I got
it from the men on board ; and I said if he was anxious to have a piece of ship's tobacco I would get him
a piece. I afterwards did get him some, and also a few cigars from the captain's steward f Richards), of
the "Opal."
10056. How many did you get ? I think I got about twenty-five cigars, and l\ lb. tobacco.
10057. What advantage was there in asking you to get it in that way from the men-of-war? Well it
cost him nothing. I did not pay anything for it, and I did not charge him anything.
10058. Did you tell the steward of the " Opal" that the cigars were for an inspector of police? No. I
asked him to get me a few cigars for a friend, and a prick of tobacco. Of course every man on board
can draw his own tobacco if he chooses, and do what he likes with it.
10059.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 259
10059. "Was that the only occasion on which you got tobacco or cigars for Inspector Atwill ? Yes. Mr. Dawson.
10060. When you gave the tobacco and cigars to Inspector Atwill did he ask you if there was anything to «— ^ >
pay? No. J ' 12 Nov., 1891.
10061. When you promised to get him some cigars and tobacco did you tell him that it would cost you
nothing ? I said I would get him a bit, that is all. Nothing more passed. I dare say it was a week
after that I got them.
10062. .Did he come to your shop to get them ? No ; I took them to the police station. I gave them to
an old man who waits on him.
10063. Mr. Atwill was not there ? No.
10064. Then you did not give them to Mr. Atwill direct ? No. There is an old man there at the watch-
house, and I gave them to him.
1°n6!-nHad y£U sPoken o£ tHs circumstance' to anybody else prior to speaking to Mr. Nock? No. I
will tell you how it came out: Three weeks ago last Monday I had been down to Manly, and came home
by the 60 clock boat. I went into the " Commercial Hotel" to have a drink, and on coming out I saw a
crowd oi Europeans at a shop a few doors below— No. 199. At first I thought there was a free fight
going on, and then I found that the Europeans were gambling there. I walked up and down till I saw a
policeman,^and I then told him that the place I have mentioned was crowded out ; remarking at the same
time that, " You chaps cannot see it seemingly." This constable said he would have to go up and report
it. I afterwards met Mr. Atwill, and mentioned the thing to him, and he told me to mind my own busi-
ness. I said, " I think it is my business," and added, " It is a d nice thing to tell a man to mind his
own business when he knows that a breach of the law is being committed. I consider that is my business."
He said to me then, " Do you know who you are talking to" ? And I replied, " Yes ; I believe they call
you Mr. Atwill." He then told me if I spoke like that to him again he would find me another billet. I
told Mr. Nock the following morning, and said I was surprised at the conduct of Mr. Atwill, especially as
he had asked me to get him some cigars from the man-of-war.
10066. Mr. Atwill did not seem to thank you for supplying information that gambling was being carried
on? No ; he threatened to find me another billet— in other words to run me in.
10067. Did Mr. Atwill ever show any ill-feeling towards you before that ? No. We were very good
friends before ; but he scarcely looks at me now.
10068. He has never asked you for any tobacco since ? No.
10069. Did you think Inspector Atwill was really serious when he told you he would find you another
billet, or did you think he was simply chaffing? I do not think he was ever more serious in his life ; and
I felt very small I can tell you. I am over 58 years of age, and if he carried out his threat it would
have been the first time in my life that ever I was locked up.
10070. He did not laugh when he said it ? No.
1007 L. Did he say he would find you another billet, or that he would run you in — what were the exact
words he used? He said, " If you speak in that way to me again, I will find you another billet."
10072. Might not he have meant a better one ? I am afraid Mr. Atwill has no better billets to give
than I can find myself.
10073. Mr. Quong Tart.'] Regarding the tobacco and cigars you gave to Mr. Atwill, about how much
would it be worth to buy in the shop ? At a rough guess I daresay it would cost about 10s. in a shop.
10074. At what hour of the day was it that you gave them to Inspector Atwill ? I cannot say now
whether it was in the forenoon or in the afternoon. I know I gave it to an old man who looks after
the Police Station.
10075. Mr. Hawthorne.] Did you tell the man what you had brought for Mr. Atwill ? I said there was
a bit of tobacco and some cigars for Mr. Atwill when he came in — that was all.
10076. The old man made no inquiry about particulars ? No.
10077. Mr. Quong Tart.] Did you see Mr. Atwill afterwards on the subject ? Yes; he thanked me a
few days afterwards.
10078. That dispute you had with Mr. Atwill about the crowd of people in No. 199 occurred about three
weeks ago ? Yes. That place was crowded with Europeans, and I called the Inspector's attention to it.
10079. Do you know the name of the place ? It is iSue Hing Long I think — three doors from the
" Commercial Hotel," on the left-hand side going down Greorge-street.
10080. And when you reported the matter to [Inspector Atwill he told you to mind your own business ?
Yes ; I said it was my business ; and then he threatened to " run me in."
10081. Before that you were good friends ? Yes ; I had no grievance against Mr. Atwill.
10082. Did he on any other occasion ask you to get him tobacco or cigars ? No ; if I were to get tobacco
and cigars in that way to any large extent I should be getting myself into trouble.
10083. Mr. Hawthorne.] How was it that you kept this information to yourself for two years and a-half
if you really thought you were doing a wrong thing in getting the tobacco and cigars for Inspector Atwill ?
I did not consider I was doing wrong in getting the tobacco, because the men on these boats can draw a
certain amount if they choose, and do what they like with it ; as I have said it did not cost me anything ;
but I was surprised at Mr. Atwill asking me to get him some ; and I told Mr. Nock so.
10084. Did you go to Mr. Nock's place on business, or simply to have a chat ? I went in to have a chat ;
to tell him about Atwill threatening me.
10085. Is Mr. Nock's shop a kind of meeting ground to discuss the Chinese question in Lower George-
street ? Not that I know of ; I never saw any meetings there.
10086. How came you to go there ? Well we are neighbours ; his place is near to me ; and I went in,
as I say, to have a chat.
100S7. Did you go there to make this statement to Mr. Nock with a view of having the matter brought
before the Commission ? No ; I did not ; and I am very sorry it was made known. I would sooner
have given £5 than come here this morning.
10088. Did you think you were doing a great favor to Inspector Atwill, when you gave him the tobacco
and cigars ? No ; he asked me, as I have said, and I got them for him.
10089. Did Mr. Atwill owe you any money for what you got for him ? No ; he simply thanked me.
10090. Did he ever ask you to get any more ? No.
10091. Did he ask you how you procured the tobacco and cigars ? No ; he made no inquiries at all.
10092. Did it strike you that he might have had some ulterior object in view — say in trying to ascertain
whether the crews of these vessels were trading in dutiable goods, without paying the duty ? No ; it did
not strike me in that way. 10098.
260 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
12 Not., 1891.
Mr. Dawson. 10003. I suppose something occurred to your mind in the shape of a reason why Inspector Atwill should
ask you to get these cigars and tobacco ? Well, I thought ho asked me to do it as a return for the kind-
ness he had done me in telling me to look out for ;i new' shop, as he was going against Mr. Lindeman's
license for the " Kopemakers' Arms."
10094. I suppose we may fairly estimate the value of the cigars and tobacco, as you say, at not more
than 10s. ? Yes ; I would not give more for it.
10095. So that in giving that tobacco aud cigars to Mr. Atwill you thought you were recompensing him
for the information he had given you in reference to the shop you rented from Mr. Lindeman, of the
" Eopemakers' Arms" ? I was renting from Lindeman's agent. But I thought if they took away
Lindeman's license they might call upon me to quit, as the shop I occupied used to be part of tho hotel
premises.
10096. In other words, your shop formed part of the original hotel, aud if Lindeman lost his license you
would not be in a position to pay the rent required for the whole of the premises ? No.
10097. Does the nature of your business in any way necessitate you keeping on good terms with the
police, to prevent your being proceeded against by them for any breach of the law ? No ; I am quite
independent of any police under the canopy of heaven.
10098. So that your doing a favour, as you say, for Mr. Atwill, was not prompted by any idea of tho
police being lenient towards you in their treatment — that is to say, you had nothing to fear from their
attentions in the ordinary course of your business ? No ; I have no cause to fear the police.
10099. So that Inspector Atwill could not possibly have had any object in asking you to present him with
these things under the idea that you were under his control in any way whatever? No; I am certain of
that.
10100. And when you made the present of tobacco and cigars it was not done with the view of escaping
police supervision in any way ? No ; lam entirely independent of the police. They have nothing to do
with me so long as I conduct the myself properly as a private citizen.
10101. Tou are simply a fruiterer ? Yes ; and I also supply the vessels in port with vegetables.
10102. How did it arise in the first place that you were commissioned to get tobacco and cigars for Mr.
Atwill ; had you been discussing the subject of getting such things from the men-o'-war or other vessels
in port? No.
10103. How did Inspector Atwill know that you could get them ? I do not know. I had thanked Mr.
Atwill for the information he had given me, as I have already told you, when he said, '' Well, Dawson,
vou are supplying the men-o'-war, and you might get me a bit of tobacco aud some cigars," and I said,
'"I will, Mr. Atwill."
10104. Did you take it that you were to make this present as a return for the information he had given
you? Yes; I took it that it was to be a return for the kindness he had doue me in giving me the
information about the shop.
10105. When you went into Mr. Nock's and made this statement, were you induced to do so by your
wounded feelings at what had taken place the previous night ? Yes ; it had never been mentioned by
me before.
10106. Did you see Mr. Nock afterwards about this ? No ; I went to his place last night, as soon as I
got your summons, and if I had seen him I would have given him the length of my tongue. I told him
that 1 did not want to be brought into it.
10107. Did you think it was right of you to make such a serious charge against a police officer, and ask
that it should be treated aB a confidential communication ? Well, I did not think when I let that state-
ment fall from my lips that it would travel another inch.
10108. Are you a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League? I am.
10109. Did you not go to Mr. Nock in his capacity as an officer of the League to give that information ?
No.
10110. Did he not tell you some time after you informed him of it that he intended bringing this matter
before the Commission ? No ; not long after.
10111. How long after ? About a week after. He was standing at the shop door one morning when 1
was coming up from the boats, and I told him he must not think of mentioning it — that I never
intended it.
10112. Did you go up to Mr. Atwill in an offensive manner when you informed him about the gambling
in this house you have referred to — No. 199 ? No ; I would not go up to any man in an offensive
mannei*.
10113. Were you civil and peaceable in your demeanour when you drew his attention to it? Yes, sir.
101L4. Had you ever drawn his attention to any matter of gambling in that or any other house previously ?
No.
10115. Was that the first time you ever approached Mr. Atwill to ask him to perforin his duty in con-
nection with the gambling-places in that locality ? I spoke to him many times before I came before this
as a witness ; but since then there has been a coolness between us.
10116. How did Inspector Atwill know you had been a witness ? That I do not know.
10117. Dad you been discussing it with the neighbours ? No ; I have no neighbours.
10118. Then how do you think he would know that you had been before the Commission? I do not
know. These things get about somehow. For instance, I heard the other day that Beadman and another
constable had been up here, and I did not know of that until I heard of it in George-street.
10119. Have not you discussed the evidence vou gave here with any of the residents of Lower George-
street ? No. , * '
l6l20. Or with any of the police ? No. I do not speak to them further than to bid good-day to those I
am acquainted with.
10121. Previous to this circumstance you have related, were you on good terms with Inspector Atwill?
We were on friendly terms enough. For anything I know we might be on friendly terms now ; there
has been a coolness, that is all.
10122. Had you been taking refreshments that evening when you had the difference with Mr. Atwill ? I
had only one glass of beer.
10123. Had you not had any drink at Manly ? No. I cannot gst a good glass of beer at Manly. I had
one at the " Commercial," in George-street.
10L21. Is there only one place in George-street that you patronise for your beer ? I go to the " Com-
mercial" and another house in George-street sometimes. 10125.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 261
10125. If you felt, as I suppose you did, that you had given utterance to a statement for the benefit or Mr- Dawson.
in the interests of the community in general, -with regard to Inspector Atwill, what was your disinclina- f ~"^— \
tion to come and give evidence before this Commission on the matter ? Well, I did not think that a paltry 12 Nov., 1891.
matter like that of a few cigars and a bit of tobacco would go forth to the world, and that is a fact. ' I
did not expect it would come to you when I said it. That was the first time it escaped my lips, and I
would not then have mentioned it, but that I was smarting under the insult that Inspector Atwill had
put upon me.
10120. Has Inspector Atwill ever asked you for tobacco or cigars since then ? No.
10127. Did he complain or speak about their quality at all ? No.
10128. He never spoke to you at all about them, except to thank you for getting them ? No.
10129. Mr. Abigail] He admitted having received the present ? Tes ; he thanked me.
10130. Mr. Hawtliofn e.j In what way ;— did it simply terminate in his thanking you for the tobacco and
cigars? He merely said, " Thank you for the tobacco and cigars, Dawson": and I said, "You are welcome,
Mr. Atwill."
10131. And nothing further transpired ? No.
10132. He did not ask you whether the officers of the vessels were in the habit of supplying other people
with tobacco ? No.
10133. Were the articles you got supposed to be supplied on board for the use of the officers ? Tes ; tho
tobacco is. The cigars I got from Captain Bosanquet's steward, of the " Opal."
1013-1. "Would it be possible to take a box of cigars off ? No ; I would not try it.
10135. Are you never searched by the officials ? No.
10136. Then it would be possible for these men to have dutiable goods on board, and you could take them
off and sell them, or give them to your friends without paying duty on them ? No. In the first place, I
never go on board the men-o'-war.
10137. Then how did you get these things off ? The captain's steward of the " Opal " brought them to
my shop.
10138. You admit having got them off a man-o'-wnr ? I asked the steward to bring me a few cigars and
a bit of tobacco, and he did so.
10139. And where did you imagine he was getting this stock from ? The tobacco was his own drawing.
Each man draws so much, and the cigars he got from Captain Bosanquet. He asked the captain for a
few for me.
1014U. Had you ever got any previously in that way ? No ; I have never brought any ashoro.
10141. There must have been some conversation that led up to his asking you to get him the tobacco and
cigars ? I tell you there was not.
10142. Then how did he know about your being able to get them ? I do not know.
10143. Mr. Abigail.'] You are not a tobacconist ? No ; but I have smoked ship's tobacco for many years.
I cannot smoke the other tobacco.
10144. Did not you state some time ago that you wondered why Mr. Atwill had asked you to get him
these things? Well, I did think that I being new there, he might have wanted to try me perhaps. But
I had no fear on that score, because I have had no dealings in contraband — there is not that much to be
made out of it.
10145. But since the time you made this present of tobacco and cigars, I suppose you have had many and
frequent opportunities of intercourse with Inspector Atwill, had you not? Yes.
10146. And he never asked you for any other favour ? No.
10147. You were on good terms with Inspector Atwill? Yes ; I would bid him " Good morning," and
perhaps shake hands when we met ; or he might stop to have a chat at my shop-door.
10148: You had no altercation with him ? No; the coolness sprang up after he had been in my shop
one day to ask about the commission.
10149. What was the nature of the inquiry ? He asked if I had been up to give evidence.
10150. Was that since you gave your evidence here ? No ; I had not been up here then.
10151. Mr. Quong Tart.] Is there much gambling going on down there now? Well, it is decreasing
slightly now.
10152. There are three places above Felton & Nock's that used to be gambling-houses, are there not ?
Yes ; all of those houses were. There are three to let now.
10153. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do the members of your League go about supervising, as it were, the Police
District under Inspector Atwill's control ? Not that I am aware of.
10154. Did you consider it your duty, in the interests of the League and the general well-being of the
community, to go up and down the street to see whether gambling was being carried on or not? I did
not consider it my duty.
10155. You did not go up to Inspector Atwill in a bumptious or officious manner that night? No; I
said, " G-ood evening," and he said, " Grood evening, Dawson." And I. then told him that I had sent him
word down about the Europeans gambling in No. 199. He then said, "Dawson, you had better mind
your own business, and you will have as much as you can do to do that."
10156. Mr. Quong Tart.] Do you know of any new places being opened for gambling lately ? I do not
know of any.
10157. If aiiy one has said that there have been some new shops opened would that be untrue ? I would
not say that.
10158. Mr. Abigail.] What county of England do you come from ? I come from Huddersfield, in
Yorkshire.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. James Macintosh called and examined : —
10159. Mr. Abigail.! You are a senior-sergeant of police ? Yes. Mr.
10160. Now stationed at Manly ? Yes. J.Macintosh.
10161. And you were formerly connected with No. 4 Police Station ? Yes. £~" ■"""*
10162. How long were you connected with that district? At No. 4 station 1 was about four years. 12Nov.,1891.
10163. And, 1 suppose, while you were stationed there you had a pretty intimate knowledge of what was
taking place in connection with Chinese gambling and so forth? Yes. 10164.
262
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
M.r- , 10164. Did you make any raids upon the Chinese gambling-houses during that time ? I assisted to make
12 Nov 1891 10*65. How many raids did you assist in during that time ? "Well, I think there was only one successful
' raid. "We attempted to make raids in some cases, in which we failed to get into the premises.
10166. Did you experience any great difficulty in obtaining admission to these places ? Yes ; they would
have men continually watching for us.
10167. And barricades':' Tes. For instance, they would have a door inside locked, and a little trap-door
which they could see through, and watch for anyone coming, and when they would see the police, a
stampede would take place, and they would be cleared out before we could get in and see anything to
justify us taking action.
10168. During your time were these places visited largely by Europeans ? Tes, a good many Europeans
used to frequent them.
10169. You had complaints brought to the police station that men lost all their wages there and so forth ?
Not exactly brought to the police station. I have had complaints made to me by individuals occasion-
ally.
10170. Did you receive any complaints with regard to the insanitary or immoral features of these places ?
No, I never received any complaints about that.
10171. Used you to visit these gambling-houses in Lower G-eorge-street ? Yes ; we used to visit them
night and day.
10172. And during your visits did you find them clean and wholesome, and so forth ? "Well, yes. I never
saw anything to complain of.
10173. You never noticed any bad smells, for instance ? Only the smell of opium.
10174. Now, did you ever hear any statement made about the police neglecting their duty in respect of
these Chinese quarters ? About five years ago, I think, Mr. Maguire, a photographer down there, wanted
me to communicate to Mr. Atwill that a question would be asked in the House of Parliament if some-
thing were not done. I said that, as it was put in that way, he had better do it himself. "We were trying
in every way to put the evil down.
10175. That was in reference to the gambling ? Yes ; it was in reference to gambling, more particularly
in a house nearly next door to Maguire's place. I think it was immediately before or after that a
successful raid was made on that place, and they were fined.
10176. "Was that raid made in consequence of the communication made to you by Mr. Maguire ? No.
I did not say anything about it, as I thought it might be the means of upsetting what there was to do.
The raid we made there was contemplated some time before.
10177. When you contemplated these raids did you carefully keep the knowledge of your intentions to
yourselves, or did the police go about telling the shop-keepers in the vicinity what you intended to do ?
Not at that time. In fact the men we brought to assist us never knew anything about it beforehand.
Mr. Atwill would tell one or two of us to get the things ready, and to have the men placed in certain
positions to be in readiness for the raid.
10178. Then, in reference to Maguire, his was the only complaint you ever heard as to the police neglect-
ing their duty in dealing with the Chinese question ? Yes.
10179. Has it ever been brought under your notice that the police, as a body, have neglected their duties
in Lower G-eorge-street ? No.
10180. Did you never hear it stated down there that the police were bribed by presents of gold watches
and chains, and diamond rings, to wink at certain breaches of the law in connection with the Chinese
residents of the locality ? During my time I never heard a single word of the kind. It is four years
since I was there.
10181. Did you ever hear it stated that the inspector received presents from the different gambling-
house keepers ? Just before I left I heard something of the kind insinuated. I think it was Maguire
passed the remark to a sergeant who was in company with me on the occasion, and I said I did not think
that could be so.
10182. "What remark was passed ? I did not hear distinctly what Maguire said, but I understood from
what passed that Maguire fhad said that Inspector Atwill must be receiving presents, or something like
that, and I said I did not think that could be true, because I recollected Mr. Atwill being offered some-
thing that a Chinese merchant was wanting to give him, as I thought, in the way of a present; and I
heard Mr. Atwill say, as I was passing, " No, thank you, I do not want it ; please do not send it."
10183. Did you know what it was ? No ; I did not hear what the Chinaman said ; 1 was simply passing
at the time.
10184. Have you ever heard it stated that private clothes constables were bribed ? No.
10185. Have you ever heard anything to the effect that the police constables regarded the George-street
beat as a good beat to be on? No.
10186. Have you heard that a constable on that beat can obtain a gold watch and chain within three
months of starting there ? I have never heard it ; but I have seen it in the papers.
10187. You saw an account of the deputation that waited on the Colonial Secretary ? Yes.
10188. Having been a sergeant on duty in Lower George-street, you have a pretty accurate knowledge
of that district ? Yes.
10189. "Would you say that the people there are liberal, kind, and considerate to the constables on that
beat ? I never experienced anything of the kind.
10190. They never chased you with presents ? No.
10191. Were you ever offered a present while you were down there? No, I never was, either from a
Chinaman or anyone else.
10192. Is it a fact that you were considered a strict and almost harsh officer in the discharge of your
duty down there? I daresay I might have been so considered by some. I may say I was Sub-inspector
under the Licensing Act, and being the only one there all the duty fell on me, and as I tried my best to
keep drunkenness down I suppose I was considered harsh by some people.
10193. Were any complaints made to the Inspector- General about your harshness while you were down
there ? No.
10194. It did not influence or bring about your removal in any way ? Nq ; I have been promoted since.
10195. Did you give special attention to the Chinese gambling in Lower George-street ? Yes ; I did so,
in
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 263
m consequence of complaints received from women about their husbands losing their money in those M.M.r* **•
places. If I could catch them there I used to chase them out as much as I could. Macintosh.
10196. Is it a fact that you were afraid to take action in connection with these places because of the lojT'^'iaai
premises being owned by Members of the Legislative Council and other influential citizens ? No. As a °v''
matter of fact I never knew that they did belong to any person in the Legislative Council or the Assembly
either.
10197. "Well, now, when you were trying to detect this gambling and put a stop to it, did it ever occur to
you that an amendment of the law was necessary to enable you more effectually to deal with the evil ?
Yes, I often thought there should be some special law to deal with the Chinese, owing to the peculiar way
in which they conduct their business. For instance, as the law stands, if you make a raid on one of these
places and find a number of people there while the game is going on, you cannot proceed directly against
those persons as in the case of the banker or croupier, but you have to procure a summons.
10198. Tou regard that as a great hindrance ? Yes, to a certain extent.
10199. And do you think that the imposition of fines is not a sufficiently severe form of punishment in
these cases. That the fear of fines such as are imposed upon them is not calculated to act as a deter-
rent. In other words, would you suggest imprisonment on conviction for offence of this nature ? I
should think so myself.
10200. Do you think the landlords — that is, the owners of these houses — after receiving due notice,
should be held responsible if gambling is still allowed to be carried on in their houses ? Yes, I should
think it would have a tendency to stop the evil if the landlords were cautious as to who they let their
houses to. For instance, they might have a stipulation to that effect when letting the premises, and then,
after due warning, if the tenant would not stop the gambling they could break through the lease. I
think it might be very easily put down in that way
10201. Are the owners of public-houses held responsible for the respectability of their tenants, or of the
houses ? ISTo. _ But if a landlord finds he has got a man in his house who is likely to injure the property
by losing the license for that house, he can make application to have him removed, and get another man
put in.
10202. Have you heard, or do you know, that the keepers of these Chinese gambling-houses pay a higher
rent than other people occupying houses in the same neighbourhood ? Yes ; I have heard that.
10203. Do you know anything about the general question of rentals down there ? No.
10204. Have you heard of any of these Chinese gamblers paying a bonus to get, into houses down there ?
No.
10205. Do you know whether the Chinese gambling-houses have increased in number during the last
four or five years ? I cannot say that, because I have not been down there for some years regularly, and
have only just passed up and down occasionally, sometimes in a 'bus.
10206. How many gambling-houses were there in Lower George-street when you were on duty there ?
I think there were only two regular gambling-houses.
10207. Would you be surprised to learn that there are at least eighteen or twenty in Lower G-eorge-
street now ? Yes, I would.
10208. Well, if that increase has taken place with the knowledge of the police, do you not think there
must have been some neglect of duty on their part in allowing such a development of the evil to occur
in the division? I cannot say, I am sure, not having been there.
10209. You feel some hesitation in giving an opinion as you have not been there to see what action the
police have taken in the matter ? Yes.
10210. Have you remarked these placards outside a number of these Chinese-kept places ? Yes.
10211. Do you know what they signify? Yes ; I understand that they give the successful numbers in
some of the pak-ah-pu lotteries.
10212. Now suppose I were to open a shop in your district of Manly, and I were to put up a notice out-
side to the effect that gambling was carried on there day and night, how long would you allow me to
remain without police prosecution ? I should look into the matter at once.
10213. Would you be surprised to learn that twenty cf these places in Lower G-eorge-street have had
'these placards exhibited, notifying that gambling is carried on day and night, and that those notices have-
been up for a long time without any interference from the police? Well, these notices {referring to
photograph produced"] are written in Chinese characters, and I question if the police would know that they
were anything different to those which indicate the successful numbers in the pak-ah-pu lottery. I
should not.
10214. Do you not think it is the duty of constables to make themselves acquainted with all notices
put up outside business places in the city, more especially when they are in a foreign language ?
Probably so.
10215. You admit that if Europeans put up these notices in English they would not be allowed to carry
on very long without police interference? Certainly not ; but I would like to point out that in these
Chinese places they put up notices directed to their own countrymen, and Europeans would not be aware
of the meaning of them.
10216. You have a Chinese interpreter at the disposal of the police, I suppose? Yes.
10217. And you admit that it is the duty of a constable to make himself acquainted with public notices,
especially when they are in a foreign language ? Yes.
10218. Do you think a knowledge of what these notices announce would have enabled the police to have
moved' with a greater amount of freedom than what they have done ? It might.
10219. During your time, if you had known that announcements of the kind were made, do you think it
would have induced you to pay more attention to these places ? I cannot say that exactly, because I
used to go and see these places for myself.
10220. Did you ever walk in and find them playing fan-tan ? Well, at one time the police did not pay
so much attention to the Chinamen playing amongst themselves, but I never went in where the Europeans
were playing with them without finding the doors locked, and as soon as they knew of our approach there
would be a stampede, and they would clear out the back way before we could get in amongst them.
10221. Did you ever get in so as to see the money on the table ? No.
10222. Did you ever hear of a constable going into one of these places when a scramble took place, and
he took the money up and put it in his pocket, and went away with it ? No.
10223.
264 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. J. 10223. Did you ever know of any feeling to be exhibited on the part of the police against a sliop-keeper
Macintosh. jn jj0wer George-street for making complaints about the Chinese gambling there ? No.
£~7~*~ — N 1022 k Do you think it would be an advantage to have the Chinese confined to one locality instead of
12 Kov.,1891. bein^ spread over tiie city as they are at the present time ? I do not think so. I think if they were
confined to one district it would increase their facilities for carrying on gambling.
10225. From your extensive experience do you think the Chiuese are generally of bad character, riotous,
and altogether undesirable people to have located in this country? No. I may say that I have seen
more gambling carried on among the Chinese in Lower George-street than anywhere else. In other
places I have not found them undesirable as a class.
1022G. You find them a law-abiding people, who do not give the police much trouble ? Tes. It is only
in regard to gambling that I have found anything against the Chinese.
- 10227. President.'] They have given you trouble in that respect ? Oh, yes ; they have given us trouble
there, certainly.
10228. But they always respect the law ; you can go into their places at all times ; they respect the
uniform of authority ? Tes.
10229. Have you never known any cases of violence, or riotous behaviour, or squabbles among them ?
Not as a rule. There was one ease I heard of where a man was said to have got struck with a bar of iron.
I made inquiries and found that he had received a knock from some of them, and they made a scramble
for his money after knocking him down. I went to the place where the man was ; the doctor said it was
not a very serious case, and the man did not want to take proceedings. That is all I know about it ; and
that is the only case I ever heard of. The Chinese generally are very quite and law-abiding if they are
left alone, and very seldom retaliate when abused indeed.
10230. When you read that report in the papers of statements having been made that the police received
bribes, what was your impression ? I did not think there was a word of truth in it at the time, nor do I now.
10231. How long have you been in the police force ? About thirteen years altogether.
10232. Has your police experience been*confined to this country ? No ; I was in the Lancashire Police
in England, for five years.
10233. Have you any property Mr. Macintosh? I have got some land — three allotments.
10234. Where is your land situated ? I have one allotment at Botany, one at Croydon, and another at
Ashfield.
10235. Is all the land paid for ? Tes.
10236. How long have you had that property ? About seven years.
10237. Can you say roughly about the amount they represented in value at the time you bought them ? I
paid about £400 for them altogether.
10238. What is the amount of your police pay ? £1 10s. a week.
10239. Are you a married man ? No.
10240. That is your present pay of course ? Tes ; I have been a sergeant for the last nine years. I was
a sub-inspector under the Licensing Act, and got £15 a year additional for that.
10241. Then the money with which you purchased this land was the result of your savings during a
course of years, and not from any gifts or presents marie to you ? No ; it was entirely my savings, up to
that time, about six and a half years ago. I never drink anything or spend my money foolishly. I should
say that I had £150 when I came to this country.
10242. Mr. Quong Tart.~\ How many years were you under Inspector Atwill ? About eight years.
10243. How long were you on duty in Lower George-street ? 1 was about four years down there, and I
have been under him four years at Manly.
10244. Now, can you tell us whether the Chinese are worse than any other class of the community in the
matter of gambling ? Well, if it were not for the Chinese down Lower George-street, I do not think
there would be any gambling there at all.
10245. But take any other part; — what is your experience of the Chinese generally ? In other parts, at
Manly, for example, I have found them a very quiet and industrious class of "people in every respect.
10246. How many different nationalities do you think are represented by the people who frequent the
Chinese gambling-dens of Lower George-street ? They are a mixed class — people from the old country
and other parts, and generally of the working class— wharf labourers and coal-lumpers and sailors, for
instance.
10247. Do you know many cases, or to what extent, Europeans have been ruined through visiting the
Chinese gambling-shops ? I cannot say to what extent they may have suffered through gambling. I
know wharf -labourers' wives have complained to me about their husbands spending their money and losing
it in these places.
10248. Erom your experience as a police officer, which, do you think is the worst, opium-smoking or the
drinking habit ? I have no doubt that the Europeans suffer more from drink than opium-smoking.
10249. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Tes ; but do you think opium-smoking among the Chinese is more injurious to
them as citizens than drink is among the European population ; — which is the greater evil of the two con-
sidered generally from that point of view ? 1 should think the drink was the greater evil. At the same
time I cannot speak with authority as to which is the more injurious physically, because I have not the
necessary medical knowledge.
10250. During your time in George-street did any of the Chinese or Europeans complain to you about
the gambling as a nuisance to the neighbourhood ? No ; they did not complain to me.
10251. Can you tell us some of the chief gambling-houses that existed in your time in Lower George-
street ? I forget their names now. There is one near M'Guire's shop, further down — Sun Sam Kee ; then
there was another where they used to play pak-ah-pu— several of them in fact, but I forget their names.
10252. Do you understand the game of fan-tan ? Tes.
10253. Do you think it is a fair game ? No ; it is a game of chance, and I do not think any game of
chance is fair.
10251. What is your opinion of pak-ah-pu ? That is about the same ; I do not think there is much
difference. Only there is a greater chance of winning.
10255. Do you know any Chinese informers ? There were no Chinese informers then.
10256. Mr. Hawthorne.] Had you not, during your experience in Lower George-street, occasionally to
make use of Chinese informers to give you information respecting the gambling-houses, to assist you in
your
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 265
your investigations ? No. We never could find the Chinamen to give us information. As a rule, if you Mr. J.
asked them anything they would look at one another and say " No savee." Macintosh.
10257. Mr. Quong Tart.'] Do you think any of the police have overlooked the existence of this gambling .o^r^Tfiqi
evil, even after having been told of cases down there ? No, not during my time ; not that I was aware of JNov-'18al'
at any rate.
10258. If anyone has made a statement to that effect would you say it is untrue ? No, I would not say
that, because I do not know what ground of complaint that they might have.
10259. If you were told that gambling was going on in a certain house in Lower George-street I suppose
you would think it your duty to make an inspection of the house, to ascertain if it was true or not ? Tes ;
and I have done it on several occasions when I have suspected houses ; when, for example, I have seen
people going in and out of a house frequently where there was no appearance of a legitimate business
being carried on.
10260. That is what I want to know — whether constables have, to your knowledge, ever neglected such
houses when they have been informed that they were gambling-houses ? A constable could only report
to his superior officer ; he could not lay an information. The public might see him walking by a place
and think he was taking no notice of it ; but the constable, as a matter of fact, can do nothing except to
report to his superior when he came along.
10261. What do you think is the feeling of the Chinese merchants in Lower George-street with respect
to gambling ? I have heard that some of them would like to put it down ; on the other hand, I have
heard that some of the merchants were concerned in keeping the banks up.
10262. Mr. Hawthorne.'] During your intimate connection with Inspector Atwill in Lower George-street
division, have you ever heard or seen anything yourself that would lead you to believe that Inspector
Atwill himself or any of his officers were receiving presents that might be construed to mean bribes to
keep them from prosecuting Chinese in that locality who were engaged in pursuits contrary to the law ?
No, sir ; I never saw the least sign of anything of the kind. I never heard of a present being given to
Mr. Atwill, or any other officer, or any constable on the beat.
10263. And you yourself have never accepted or been offered a bribe by the Chinese residents of Lower
George-street? No.
10264. And you think any statement that the police have received bribes in the way I have stated would
be untrue ? From my knowledge of Mr. Atwill and the other officers there, I should say it was, certainly.
10265. Were you in that division during the engagement of Constables Carson and Beadman ? Beadman
came when I left. Carson was there.
10266. Did you always find him an upright man? Yes ; he was a reserve man, and always in the station
when I was there.
10267. Now, with regard to this bribery question, to make bribery effectual, Mr. Macintosh, would it not
be necessary to bribe every constable on the beat? I should think so. It would be useless to make
presents to a couple of them — especially to Carson, or bis mate either, because they have nothing to do
with the inspector getting a warrant to make a raid.
10268. So that the gamblers concerned in that division, iu choosing Constables Carson and Beadman,
would be choosing probably the weakest men in the force. to suit their purposes under the circumstances ?
Yes, I should think so, although they might have more power to inform upon them than a man in
uniform, because they can go in and out of these places with greater facility.
10269. A man in uniform has his beat prescribed, and cannot go outside that beat ? No ; except in a
matter of urgency.
10270. In the district of Manly, is there any gambling carried on among the Chinese ? No ; not in any
way whatever. They are employed working the gardens there.
10371. Mr. Abigail.} Are you in charge of the Manly district ? Yes.
10272. Mr. Quong Tart.] How many Chinese are there in Manly ? About sixty or seventy.
[The witness withdrew.]
FRIDAY, 13 NOVEMBER, 1891.
Tjjlnsmt: —
The Mayor -or Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pkesident.
QUONG TAET, Esq, | JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Constable Phillip Sweeney called in and examined: —
10273. Mr. Abigail.] You are a police constable.? I am. Constable
10274. And you are attached to No. 4 police station ? Yes. p- Sweeney.
10275. How long have you been stationed there ? Thirty-three years on the 25th June last. ^w^^isot
10276. All the time in connection with the same district ? Yes. 13 Nov-> 18°L
10277. Mr. Hawthorne.] You have never been attached to any other district? No.
10278. Mr. Abigail.] Then you have a very intimate knowledge of what has taken place in connection
with the police supervision of that district ? Well I have been principally on reserve duty in the station
itself during that time.
10279. You were never engaged on outside duty ? No ; I have been on reserve duty for thirty years.
.10280. Then as a matter of fact you have not an intimate knowledge of the Chinese gambling that is
carried on in the neighbourhood of Lower George-street ? I have no knowledge of it whatever.
10281. I suppose that anybody going down to No. 4 station to see Inspector Atwill comes in contact with
you when the inspector himself is not in ? The sergeant on duty— there is always a sergeant on duty
there — attends to him.
L0282. Do you go on messages and so forth ? I generally go a message in the afternoon to the Superin-
tendent's office for orders.
10283. Did not you on one occasion go down to Mr. Ah Toy's for Inspector Atwill to get an account for
a cabinet that- he had had from him ? No ; your worship, I did not.
272— 2 L 10284.
266 CHINESE GAMBLI.NU COMMISSroX — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Constable nrjs 1. Do you know anything about an account for anything of that kind ? No ; I don't.
P. H*cene.T. j0l>sr>. Did you not receive a parcel from Mr. Dawson on ono occasion for Inspector Atwill ? No.
i^v^'^Tsqi 1O2S0. Didn't you once receive a parcel of cigars and tobacco from Mr. Dawson ? No ; I didn't.
13>ov.,l89l. jqoS7_ ]£avc vou ,lcvel. received any parcel for Inspector Atwill? No ; 1 never received anything of the
kind.
10288. Is there any other lockup-keeper down there beside you ? There is the station sergeant and a
reserve man to look after things when I am not there.
10289. And you are not aware of any parcel of cigars and tobacco being left at No. 4 station for Inspector
Atwill? No ; I do not remember ever seeing anything of the kind there.
10290. Are vou aware of. any member of the Police Porce attached to No. 4 station ever having received
anything — any present of any kind at any time ? No ; I am not aware of such a thing.
10291. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you remember, about two and a half years ago, a Mr. Dawson, a fruiterer, in
Lower George-street, coming to your quarters in Lower George-street for a parcel which he said was
something for Mr. Atwill ? No.
10292. Of course if you have been at the station for over thirty years you were there two and a half
years ago ? "Well, I am not in the station at all times. I get the place cleaned up in a morning, and
then I go home for dinner and get myself cleaned ; then I come back and go to the Superintendent's
office for orders.
10293. The pal-eel to which we refer would not be a large one. It would be about the size of that book,
only square ? I do not recollect either receiving or seeing anything of the kind left for Mr. Atwill at
No. 4 station.
10294. Tou know Mr. Dawson ? I know the shop, and as I have passed I have seen an elderly man and
woman there — Mr. Dawson and his wife.
10295. So you know them by sight ? I know them by passing up and down the street, that is all.
10296. But at all events you are positive that you never received a parcel from Mr. Dawson which he
said was for Inspector Atwill ? Tes ; I am positive of that.
10297. Have you ever heard during the whole of your residence down there of any of the police in your
district receiving presents from the Chinese or from any other class of the community ? No, never.
10298. You have never seen or heard of any Chinaman coming into the station and charging the police
with having received bribes or presents of any kind ? Never.
10299. And during the whole of the time you have been down there you have never heard anything
against any of the police on duty in that division ? No, never.
10300. Tou are quite sure that you have never heard anything said about Inspector Atwill or Senior-
constables Beadman or Carson receiving bribes ? Never.
10301. Tou have found them on the whole straightforward and upright men ? Tes.
10302. Of course you know Senior-constable Beadman very well ? Tes ; I have known him since he
joined the force in Balmain.
10303. He is rather given to wearing jewellery, is he not ? "Well, yes, he wears jewellery.
10304. Bather more than the general run of policemen ? Tes ; he seems to have a taste that way.
10305. Has Mr. Beadman ever told you where he has got his jewellery from ? He got it for saving life
I believe. Of course I have never looked at his jewellery myself more than just seeing his watch, chain,
and. a few ornaments on it.
10306. And you have never heard him charged with having received this jewellery for neglect of duty ?
Never.
10307. Can you call to mind whether you ever saw Mr. Dawson the fruiterer inside your station for any
purpose whatever ? T don't recollect ever seeing him there. Of course he might have been there and me
not having seen him.
10308. "Who takes charge of the station when you go away? The station sergeant is always on duty
when I am out, and there is a reserve man there too. There are always two of them there, one of them to
look after the prisoners and the cells, and the other to attend to anybody who may come in for informa-
tion and so on.
10309. Do you live on the station premises ? No ; I live in Cumberland-street.
10310. "Who lives on the station ? There is only the station sergeant and the reserve man.
10311. And they are relieved at stated periods ? They come on duty at 10 o'clock one morning, and
remain on until 10 o'clock the next morning. They are on duty altogether twenty-four hours at a time.
10312. Has that been the case always during the last two years and a half? That has always been the case.
10313. "Well, do you remember any of the men who have been doing duty at the station during your
absence ever saying that a parcel was received for Mr. Atwill ? I never heard of it,
10314. And if a person said that he had left a parcel at the station for Mr. Atwill, and further said that
he had left it with you, that would not be correct ? Quite so. I recollect nothing at all about it.
10315. Do you recollect any statement being made about Mr. Ah Toy, a Chinese cabinet-maker in Lower
George-street, having presented Mr. Atwill with a piece of furniture? No ; I never heard that said.
10316. Are you sure ? I am quite certain.
10317. Were you ever sent down to All Toy's to get a receipt for an article of furniture ? I do not
recollect going there for anything of the sort.
10318. Do you not remember Ah Toy going into TViton and Nock's, the ironmonger's place, next door,
and getting them to write out a receipt ? No, I don't.
10319. Are you quite sure of it ? Tes, quite.
10320. "Were you ever in Felton and Nock's establishment ? Oh, yes, often. I have been there when I
wanted nails and the like.
10321. But whenever you have been there it has been on private business ? It has been on business
connected with the station.
10322. But you never went there on any business connected with Mr. Atwill ? No, never, as far as I
can recollect.
10323. Is there any other very old policeman connected with the station ? "Well, there is Sergeant
Higgins; he is getting on in years.
10324. Tes, but he would be well known to Mr. Nock ? Tes.
10325. Mr. Aligail.] Do you clean out the cells in No. 4 police station? I clean out the-. cells every
morning, and look after the prisoners coming in when I am there. 10326.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 26?
10326. Mr. Hawthorne.] You are quite positive that you never went down to Ah Toy's place for a Constable
receipt ? I recollect now. I am mistaken. I am jiistbringinR it to my mind that I went down, to Ah P- Sv,eeney-
Toy s place ou one occasion for a receipt, I think. ]t was for Mr A (will. I have just been turning it 1^^TD,
over an my mind. is .Nov., 188*.
10327. It is a most important matter, and you ought to be exceedingly careful what vou say? Yes, it
was some time ago, and it was something for Mr. Atwill. I remember now.
10328. What message did Mr. Atwill give you on that occasion ? He told me to go to Ah Toy's and get
a letter tor him, but what the letter was for I cannot say.
^ao! n ?af ¥*' Ati.wi11 Pre.viously 8P°lten to Ah Toy on the question ? That I cannot say.
ZC i *' i. m * wa? -1U whldl he told y°u wtat t0 do> snould y°u tnink that he had ? I understood
that Ah Toy was aware of it.
10331 And when you went to Ah Toy's did Ah Toy appear to understand the object of vour visit ? He
said that he had not time to make it out.
10332. And did you not get it ? No.
10333. You came away without it ? Yes ; I never received it.
10334. If anyone has said that you went there and obtained the receipt would that be stating what was
not a tact i Yes, it would be stating what was uot true.
i n!!.' Y\eni?m\™^ down t0 Ah To?'s did lie tel1 y°u thathe had not time to make it out then ? He did.
1063b. But what did he say m addition to that ;— he must have said something else too ? I went on two
occasions to his place, and each time he said that he hadn't time to make it out, and, as a matter of fact,
I never received it.
10337. So that if any receipt was given it did not pass through your hands ? No.
10338. You are quite certain on that point? Quite.
10339. Mr. Abigail.'] Carry your memory back now for two years and a half to the circumstance connected
with the tobacco and cigars from Mr. Dawson. You have admitted to making a mistake about the
receipt. Think if you have not made a mistake about the tobacco and cigars too ? No, I am quite sure
about that. I never received a parcel of any kind from Mr. Dawson.
10340. Not two years and a half ago. Did you not at that time receive a parcel for Mr. Atwill ? No.
10341 . Suppose Mr. Dawson has said that you did ? I never did. I never received anything from Mr.
Dawson that I am aware of.
103-42. What age are you ? I am over 60 years of age.
•10343. Is jour memory very good? Yes, it is very good; but I did not think of that receipt when first
you mentioned it.
10344. Well, you see as you forgot about going down for the receipt you might easily forget about the
tobacco ? Well, you see after you had been asking me about it for a while I had a chance of thinking
over it. There are so many things happening in the course of two years; but I am sure that I never
received any tobacco or cigars for Mr. Atwill.
10345. Mr. Hawthorne.'] But you would not know what was inside the parcel? No, quite so ; but I never
received any parcel from Mr. Dawson as far as I can recollect.
10346. Mr. Abigail.] Is it not a customary thing for several parcels to come to the station for the
inspector ? Yes, several parcels come at different times, but I do not recollect Mr. Dawson leaving a parcel
there.
10347.-3/}'. Hawthorne] As you know Mr. Dawson you would probably notice him coming in with a
parcel if he did so, and recollect the incident ? I know both the old lady and the old gentleman.
10348. So that if he has said that he left a parcel containing tobacco and cigars in your keeping that
would probably not be true ? No.
10349. Mr. Quong Tart.] Have you had any conversation with any member of the police force since you
received the summons to attend as a witness before this Koyal Commission ? No, I have not.
10350. Can you tell us about how many parcels have been received at the station for Mr. Atwill during
the last three years ? No, I cannot say.
10351. You have received some, you say? I have seen parcels coming there at different times, but I
cannot say what was in them.
10352. Have you received any during the last six months ? There may have been some left there ; they
may have come when I was in or they may have come when I was out.
10353. At all events you cannot say how many ? I cannot say how many.
10354. What is the size of the largest parcel that you have received for Mr. Atwill ? I cannot say.
Sometimes they are large parcels and sometimes they are small ones.
10355. Have you ever heard any conversation amongst any of the men attached to your station about
large boxes of tea being left at their houses and of their not being able to tell whom they were from,
bringing them back to the station ? I did not hear anything about it.
10356. In your time have any Europeans or Chinese complained to you that the police have not done
their duty in looking after the Chinese gamblers and putting a stop to fan-tan and pak-ah-pu ? Some-
times women and children will come to the station and complain of their husbands spending their money
in the gambling-houses and leaving them without food.
13357. Did the women seem in great distress ? Yes, the woman I am talking of said that herself and
children were starving.
10358. How often have women come to you with that story ? I cannot say.
10359. And when they have come what have you done; have you passed them on to Mr. Atwill? Of
course the sergeant on duty saw them, but could not do anything for them.*
10360. Did the sergeant say to them that he could not do anything for them ? Yes ; the sergeant would
be there when they came and Mr. Atwill would be out.
10361. Mr. - Abigail.] Did the sergeant inquire from them the house in which their husbands were
gambling ? No, they did not mention the house.
10362. And no inquiries were made from them as to what it was ? No, I did not hear any, your Worship.
10363. How long ago is it since these circumstances occurred ? It might be three or four months ago,
or it might be longer. 10364.
* Note (on revision) ; — These -women came with dinners for their husbands, who were locked up for being found in
Moy Ping's gambling house. It was then that I heard the complaints. — P.S.
13 Nov.. 1891.
26S Clll-YESli (JAJIBMSU COMMtSSIOX — MIXUTES OF EV 11>E>CE.
Constable 10361. Are there many cases of that kind, or have there only been a few? There have not been very
P. Sweeney. many _
10365. And the complaints have mostly come from women ? Ves, women complaining about themselves
and their children.
10366. Young women? Middle aged women.
10367. With families, I suppose ? Yes.
10368. Have any Chinese come to you to complain of the gambling ? Well, you see they would not
address themselves to me ; it would be to the sergeant on duty. I have seen Chinese there on some
occasions, however, complaining of gambling.
10369. What kind of Chinese ; — informers or merchants or what ? T cannot say what they were, but I do
not think they were merchants.
10370. Do you think they were Chinese informers ? I think so.
10371. You must have come across a good many Chinese informers; — what do you think of them; — what
kind of characters are they ? Well ; they seem to want to put a stop to the gambling.
10372. Mr. Hawthorne.] Mr. Tart wants you to convey to the Commission your impression from your
own experience as to the class of men these informers generally are ; — do you think they inform the
police of the crimes of their countrymen, more for the sake of making money for themselves than for
the public good? I do not know ; it may be more oat of spite that they come on some occasions. They
do not appear to be able to agree very well among themselves.
10373. Mr. Quong Tart.] You do not think that they are Chinamen of very high class character then ?
Well, of course, I cannot say what their character might be.
10374. Have you ever had anybody complaining to you of much opium-smoking down there ? No ; I
have never heard anything about it.
10375. Did you ever hear of any of the business people down tlrere going to the lock-up, and complaining
about the Chinese injuring their business ? No ; I never heard of it.
10376. Have you heard of anyone coming to the lock-up about three weeks ago, and drawing the attention
of the officer in charge to the" large amount of Chinese gambling going on? No; nobody camo that
I am aware of. They might have come ; but I did not see them.
10377. How many police are there in charge of that district ? Well ; there are about sixty under Mr.
Atwill ; at No. 4 station — sixty men.
10378. Now there is one matter that I want to ask you about again. I want you to think over it again
very carefully. Both Mr. Abigail and Mr. Hawthorne have asked you about the parcel that we have
been told Mr. Dawson brought to you about two years and a half ago. I want yon to try again to
remember whether he brought it to you or not? Well, as to whether the parcel came to the lock-up or
not, I cannot swear either one way or the other. A parcel might come and be received by somebody else
when 1 was away.
10379. You said at first when you were asked about the receipt, you forgot it ? Yes ; I could not think
of it at the time, but when I had turned it over in my mind, it came to me again, and I recollected that
Mr. Atwill did send me for a letter to Ah Toy's place.
10380. How long ago would it be ? It might be a couple of months ago.
10381. At all events it was after the Commission was appointed? I do not know about the Commission,
but I think it was after the raid was made on Moy Ping's gambling-place.
10'382. Have you no idea why Mr. Atwill sent you down there particularly to get a receipt ? No, I have
no idea. I never heard.
10383. He sent you down there twice ? Yes.
10384. Did he send you down in the morning of one day, and then again the same day, or was it the day
after that you went down the second time ? I think the first time he sent me down was in the forenoon,
and the second time in the afternoon of the second day, but I cannot be sure. Ah Toy was out.
10385. What has been your experience of Mr. Atwill. Have you always found him a respectable and
upright man ? Yes ; always.
10386. Have you ever heard of any member of the police force taking any bribes, on condition that they
would not interfere with the gambling ? No ; I never heard of anything of the kind.
10387. If anybody has said that the police have been in the habit of receiving bribes, it would be untrue ?
Well, so far as I am concerned, I should say so.
10388. That is all I want to ask you about ? Of course you will excuse me forgetting about that '
account. I did not think of it at the time ; but I am glad that I thought of it afterwards, so that you
will not think that it was wilful on my part.
10389. Mr. Abigail.] Yes, that is all right. We accept your statement as quite satisfactory ? As far as
the gambling by the Chinese is concerned, I do not know much about that. I have never been in the
way of finding much out ; but with regard to Mr. Dawson, he may have left a parcel at the station, and
I know nothing about it. I do not know whether he did or whether he did not.
[The witness withdrew.]
Constable John O'Sullivan called in and examined :—
Constable 10390. Mr. Abigail.] What rank do you hold ? I am a 1st class constable.
J. O'Sullivan. 10391. And you are attached to No. 4 police station ? Yes.
.— »w\^— \ 10392. How long have you been in that district ? About five and a half years.
13 Nov., 1891, 10393. Where were you before you went there ? I was living in Sydney for some time before that. I
was in Sydney before I joined the police force.
10394. But you have been under Inspector Atwill ever since you have been in the police ? Yes.
10395. Do you do duty in Lower G-eorge-street ? Yes.
10396. And you have a good idea of what goes on amongst the Chinese down there? Yes.
10397. Do you know many of the European shopkeepers in that part of the town ? Yes ; I know most
of them.
10398. Do you ever have any conversations with them ? Yery seldom.
10399.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 269
10399. Do tliey ever make complaints to you about the Chinese gambling-houses and say how it Constable
demoralises their business ? I believe that some of them have said so lately. J- °'SulliTall>
10400. "When they have made those complaints, what have you done ? "Well there is only one thing for i^^^sm
me to do, and that is to clear the street if anybody complains that traffic is being intercepted. ov''
10101. But I am referring particularly to what goes on inside these places ? Supposing complaints are
made to you about a number of people assembling in the Chinamen's houses for the purpose of gambling
what is it your custom to do ? "Well, nobody has ever made a direct complaint of that kind to me.
10102. Tou have visited these places pretty often, have you not— you have been in the habit of walking
in and out to see what is going on ? Tes ; J have been into those places on duty.
10403. Have you ever seen them engaged in playing fan-tan, and so forth ? No ; I have not.
10401. Have you never been present when a raid has been made, and there has been a scramble for the
money on the table ? No ; I have not.
10105. Are you sure of that ? Tes; I am positive.
10406. Have you ever been in any of those places when there has been a fight on ? I have been in
several times to quell a fight. I have been called in.
10407. Do you remember being in a shop one day and saying to a Chinaman, " Do you want to fight? "
Then taking him by the arm and walking with him to the back part of the premises ? I do not remember
that.
10108. "Well is it likely that an event of that kind would take place without your remembering it ? No.
10409. Did you ever receive a present of any kind from any Chinaman ? I have not.
10410. Did you ever refuse one ? I was never offered one.
10411. Not even a gold watch or a diamond ring ? No.
10112. Are you in the habit of going into these Chinese gambling- places and leaning on the counters
there and talking to them for a considerable time ? I am not, sir.
10413. And you say that if it has been said that you went into a shop and said to a Chinaman, " Do you
want to fight ? " in a jocular manner, then took his arm and walked with him into the back part of the
premises, thaj; would not be the truth ? It would not, sir.
10114. Do you know Felton and Nock, the ironmongers, personally? I know Mr. Nock.
10115. There are Chinese gambling-places near their shop, are there not ? Tes.
10116. And I suppose Felton and Nock's business suffers very considerably in consequence, doe? it not?
I do not know.
10 117. Do you not think it very likely that the assembling of a number of Chinese in gambling-shop^ aa
they assemble in Lower George-street would have a tendency to injure legitimate Europaan trades-
people ? I do not know. I cannot say.
10118. Have you been connected with any of the raids that have been made by the police upon the
Chinese gamblers down there ? Tes ; I was in one of them some time ago.
10119. How long ago is that ? I really forget the date.
10120. But at all events it was some time ago? Tes; it might be a couple of years ago — perhaps more.
10421. And how many did you arrest on that occasion ? I think we arrested about thirty as near a3 I
can tell.
10122. Were they all convicted or fined ? I quite forget though ; I think they were.
10123. Can you give us any reason why raids have not been made more frequently ? I cannot.
10424. Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that Europeans assemble in those places now, as they did
formerly, for gambling purposes ? Well, I do not know. They may do so, but I really do not know
whether they do or not at the present tine, because I have not been on duty in that street for some
months. Except on one or two very rare occasions I have not been there at all.
10125. Then what part of the district are you in? My beat is round Miller's Point now, and has been
for some time past.
10126. Twelve months ago, however, when you were on the Lower George-street beat, you used to see a
great deal of gambling going on ? Tes ; there was a good bit then.
10427. Can you see any reason why raids were not more frequently made, then ? No ; I cannot.
10428. [Showing a photograph to the witness]. "When you were on that beat ; did you see a good many
white paper notices like those stuck up outside the gambling-houses ? Tes ; I did.
10429. Did you ever make yourself acquainted with the meaning of them ? No ; I did not.
10430. Are there any Chinese gambling-shops at Miller's Point ? No.
10131. Supposing I was to start a gambling-house down there and put up notices saying, "Gambling
carried on day and night," what would you do ? I would report the matter to the inspector.
10432. Do you know that when you were on the Lower George-street beat there were eighteen or twenty
shops with notices stuck up outside saying, in Chinese language, "Fan-tan (gambling) carried on day
and night within " ? I did not know that. They might say that, but as they were in Chinese we did not
know what they said. . . ■, -^ ,,.
10433. But do you not think that it is your duty to make yourself acquainted with every public notice
appearing on your beat? Well, to tell you the truth, I never thought it was worth while to take any
notice of them. . ,,-.-,
10434 Do you not know that there are Chinese interpreters employed by the Government trom whom you
could have found out the meaning of the placards ? I know there is a Government interpreter.
10135. And could you not have found out from him the purport of the notices ? I should have had to
bring the matter under the notice of my superior officer.
10136. And could you not have done that very easily ? Tes, I dare say I could, but I did not think that
the notices were of sufficient importance.
10137. Have you got any property ? No .
10438. Are you a married man? Tes. I have no property, but I have a little money m the bank.
10139! How much money have you in the bank— you must understand that we do not wish to be inquisi-
tive, and it is only from a sense of duty that I put the question— indeed it is in your own interest to
answer it— have you £1,000 ? No.
10440. Five hundred pounds ? No.
10441. How much have you ? About £200.
10442. Is that, or any portion of it, the result of gifts or presents ? No.
10443 The result of your own savings ? No, it is money that belongs virtually to my wife. 10141.
270 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Constable 1044 1. And you positively state on your oath that you have not received any presents of money or any-
J. O'SuUivan. ^[^^ c]9e fro,n anyone in Lower George-street ? Not from anyone anywhere.
<Tv°k>^Rqi 10^-5- Have you ever made the statement that von were afraid to perform your duty because some of the
13>oy.,1891. propertjeg 0Ct.Upied by the Chinese gamblers in Lower George-street were owned by Members of Parlia-
ment ? I have not.
1011G. That fact never influenced you in the performance of your duty ? No.
1011-7. Do you know a man named Bowker— a carpenter? No. I do not know any carpenter of that
name. There is a Dr. Bowker.
1011S. Tes ; but this man is a carpenter— a young fellow ? I do not know him.
30119. Is there one individual whom you are in the habit of coming clown on, more especially when he is
in the company of a young woman ? No.
10150. And. you do not know a man named Bowker? No, I do not.
10151. Have you ever heard the police say that it is a very fine thing to be on duty in the Lower Goorge-
street district ? I have not.
10152. Never heard of them scrambling to get hold of that beat? No, I have not.
10153. Have you ever heard that a man on that beat must be very inactive if he does not get a gold watch,
and chain in three months ? I have never heard it amongst the police.
10151. What is your impression of the Chinese as a class— are they orderly or disorderly? They are
far more orderly than many of the Europeans who frequent their places.
10155. Europeans of the same status ? Yes.
10156. Do they get drunk very often? Who, the Chinamen?
10157. Yes ? I do not think they do. It is not my experience.
10158. Is the amount of immorality with women very bad down there ; — do you ever witness any out-
rageously indecent or immoral scenes in the places inhabited by Chinamen, and frequented by European
women ? No, I have seen nothing of the kind. There are a lot of Chinamen married to European
women down there, but otherwise I do not think there is anything in it.
10459. So that your opinion is that apart from the gambling there is nothing to find fjault with in the
Chinese as citizens ? There is not.
10460. Was any complaint ever made when you were on the Lower George-street beat about Chinaman
insulting females as they passed along the street ? Yes ; a woman complained to me once that she had
been assaulted by a Chinaman, but as there were no evidences of injury at all about her— and as there was
some doubt about it— we could not arrest the man, but I got his name and address for her, and told her
that she could summons him ; so that really after that the case was out of our hands altogether. Asa
matter of fact we never heard anything more about the affair.
10101. What was her complaint ; — did she say that the Chinaman struck her ? Her complaint was that
she called there (it was a gambling-house) for her husband, and that the Chinaman struck her.
101G2. But have you ever received any complaints from women that they had been insulted as they were
passing up and down the street ? Never.
10103. In the instance to which you have referred, the woman had been to look for her husband, who was
losing money inside? Yes. She had no injuries whatever, so we should not have been justified in lock-
ing the man up, but I took him to the station, and got his name and address.
104G4. Did Inspector Atvvill ever give you special instructions about the Chinese ? No, he did not.
10165. Constables have a set of rules for their guidance, have they not? Yes.
101GG. And suppose a European shopkeeper gave you information to the effect that gambling was being
carried on at some particular shop could you go in at once and stop it, or would you have to report it
to your superior officer ? I should report it to my superior officer. As for going in it is almost an
impossibility.
10167. But have you not power to go in ? I do not know. My impression is that without a special
warrant for the purpose a policeman has no right to go in. If there is a disturbance inside of course he
can go in if he is called.
10468. Did you read an account of a deputation that waited on the late Colonial Secretary about three
months ago ? I read a portion of it, I think.
10469. That deputation made very sad and serious charges against the police, did it not ? Yes ; there
were some very serious charges made.
10170. Do you believe there is any truth in the statements ? I do not think there is a particle of truth
in the matter.
10171. You are not in a position to make any suggestions, as far as any alteration in the law, for the
more thorough suppression of these gambling-houses is concerned, are you ; — you have not given the
matter any thought, I suppose ? I have not.
10172. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you know Moy Youk, in Lower George-street ? I do not know Moy Youk;
personally.
10173. But you know the establishment kept by Moy Youk, do you not. Do you kjiow the. number ? It
is No. 202. I know the place, that is all.
10474. Do you remember on one occasion going into Moy Youk's ? Well, I suppose I haya been, into
that shop. I have been into all of them, I think, several times.
10475. And what would you go in for — just to make an ordinary inspection ? No ; I went in when X
was called.
10476. Do you remember, on any occasion, going in with the master of the house, and walking through
to the back with him ? No ; I do not.
10477. Have you ever partaken of any refreshment with the proprietors of any of the Chinese gambling-
houses in Lower George-street, or, indeed, with any Chinamen at all down there ? No ; I do not think
that I have.
10478. Are you positive? Yes ; quite. I recollect, now that I come to think of it, being called, in one
day to a Chinaman's house, at the back of which there, was some new building going on. I was' told that
a man on the buildings was insulting the proprietor of the gainbliDg-house, and I told him that if he clid,
not conduct himself properly he would very likely suffer for it.
10479. So that the only time you went to the back of the premises of a Chinaman was on one occasion,
when you went to tell a European who was insulting a Chinaman tbat he must conduct himself properly?
Yes ; that was the only time. 10480.
CHINESE GAMBMNG COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 271
10480. And you have never been on friendly terms with any of the proprietors of Chinese gambling- Constable
houses down there ? No. J- OTSuIHVbb.
10481. Never partaken of their hospitality— had drinks or plates of oysters with them ? No. irw~^"i*o]
10482. You say that you do not know Mr. Bowker ? No ; I cannot call him to mind. "
10483. Mr. Abigail.'] Do you live in Princes-street ? Yes ; I have lived there for three years, if not
more.
10484. Did this occurrence that you have referred to happen sis months ago— was it not more like
twelve months ago ? No, it is more than twelve months ago. 1 cannot tell the exact date. The new
building was begun in the street behind about eight or nine months ago.
10485. Have you ever heard any charges made against your superior officers— any charge of receiving
bribes or anything of that kind ? No, sir.
10486. Never heard it hinted during your rambles about the place ? No, sir.
10487. You know Senior-constables Beadman and Carson ? Yes.
10488. Have you ever heard anything against them— anything to lead you to believe that they were
receiving presents from anybody ? No.
10489. You have found them, on the whole, very straightforward men? I have found them rather too
straightforward sometimes.
10490. "What do you mean by too straightforward ? That they would tell a man what they thought
of him.
10491. They are men who are not given to concealing their feelings —regular Jack Blunts, eh ? Yes.
10492. Mr. Quong Tart.] How long have you been stationed at Lower George-street ? About five years
and a half.
10493. Have ynu been under Mr. Atwill all the time ? Yes.
10494. "What instructions have been given to you about dealing with gambling ? No spec'al instructions
have been given to me, but the usual course of procedure is this : The officer in charge of the station gets
a warrant at the police court, and he details men to make a raid on a certain place. If they can get in it
is all right. If tney cannot get in then they have to go away again, and I have heard that on two occasions
when Mr. Atwill got warrants to make raids on places the places were closed when he got there.
10495. You have told the Commission that you took part in one raid; — did you have any trouble in
getting in on that occasion ? Yes ; we had a great deal. In fact I did not get in at all. I met the
others on the steps. They were strangers in the district who got in.
10496. How long ago was that ? It might be two or it might be three years ago. I cannot remember
exactly.
10497. "Whereabouts was the house that you made the raid upon ? Somewhere near where the old
"Royal Albert Hotel" was. I think it was one of those places that has since fallen down.
10498. Do you think that the gambling in that part of the town is increasing or decreasing ? It is
decreasing, decidedly.
10499. How many places are there down there now ? I do not know. I have not counted them, but
there are very many fewer than there were then.
10500. What kind of a woman was it who was insulted by that Chinaman ? Her husband was secretary
to the Coal-lumpers' Union.
10501. She went to the place to look after her husband ? Yes.
10502. And you know the Chinaman she referred to ? Yes ; I saw him not very long ago. He lives in
the buildings nearly opposite to Mr. Swinbourne, the bootmaker.
10503. You know Moy Youk ? He is a brother of Moy Ping's, I believe.
10504. "Would you know him if you were to see him ? No ; I should not, but I know Moy Ping.
10505. Do you not know Moy Youk ? No ; I do not know any man of that name.
10506. Did you ever hear any complaints from the business people down in that quarter to the effect
that Chinese gambling was a nuisance to the neighbourhood and injurious to their business ? Not until
very recently.
10507. How recently ? Oh, after the Anti-Chinese Gambling League and this Eoyal Commission had
been formed.
10508. And who complained to you first ? "Well, I cannot say. I have heard a good many complaints.
It is now the general opinion that they are a great nuisance, but until recently, from what I could see,
the Chinamen and the European citizens of Lower George-street seemed on the best of terms.
10509. If any complaints have been made by Europeans to the effect that the gambling among the
Chinese has caused their business to fall off, is that the truth ? "Well, I am not in a position to say.
10510. Mr. Hawthorne.] How long have you been stationed in that part of the metropolitan district ?
About five and a half years.-
10511. Do you think that business is not so good now as it used to be ? Yes ; I think there is less
business doing down there than there was.
10512. How would you account for the change in business in that locality ; — what do you think it is due
to particularly ? I do not think it is due to anything in particular. Business is very dull everywhere in
the Colony at present.
10513. Do you think that the presence of the Chinese in Lower George-street is enough to account for
the falling-off in business ? No ; I do not think it is.
10514. Or do you think it is more likely to be the moving of the A.U.S.N. Co. from that end of the town
to Darling Harbour ? I dare say that has been the principal cause. You could see ships two and three
deep all along the Quay when first I went down there, and about 1,300 or 1,400 men were employed in
connection with them, and there was also a good deal of traffic ; but now the traffic is comparatively
small.
10515. Mr. Quong Tart.] Did you ever know any Chinese merchants in favour of gambling? No; I
did not.
10516. "Well did you ever know any of them trying to put a stop to it ? No ; I never did.
10517. Did any Chinese informer ever come to you to complain of the gambling-house keepers ? No ;
in fact, until recently, as I say, I never heard a word against the gambling.
10518. Did any constable ever tell you that he had had a chest of tea left for him at his house by some
one ufi&nowh, and that he had had to return it ? No ; I never heard anything of it.
10519. Do you know Mr. Dawson, the fruiterer ? Yes ; I know him. 10520.
272 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Constable 10520 What sort of a man is ho? "Well, I know very little about him. I have never had anything to do
J-°'Sullivan- with him. . ,. , , , lo
<"~V-A- — v 10521. Mr. Abigail.'] Well I suppose you can tell us what his character is ;— is his conduct good or bad ?
13Nov.,1891. wJj j have nw;er heapd allythJDg agaiust him.
10522-3. Mr. Qiwng Tart.] When were you married ? On the 15th April last.
13Nov.,1891.
Mr. Edward Keatinge called in and examined : —
Detective E. 10524. Mr. Abigail.] You are a detective in the metropolitan police force, and are attached to No. 2
Keatinge. district ? Yes.
10525. You have some considerable knowledge as to what has taken place amongst the Chinese places in
and about your district ? Yes.
1052G. Do you visit them very frequently ? Yes ; I visit them daily and nightly almost.
10527. Where are most of the Chinese at your end of the city located just now ? Principally in Wexford-
street and Goulburn-street, and there are some houses in Campbell-street inhabited by Chinamen.
10528. Has the gambling evil increased of late ? No, it has not.
10529. Has it decreased ? Yes, it has decreased. _
10530. Why is that ? Well, for some years past we have prohibited Europeans associating with them in
their games.
.10531. By-the-bye, you were present at a raid made by the police in Goulburn-street the other day, were
you not ? Yes ; the raid was under my direction.
10532. And they were all Chinese who were convicted in connection with it, were they not ? Yes ; and
we got a conviction in every case except that of one man, a cook, who was there by accident. He had
only just come there.
10533. But as far as the Europeaus are concerned the evil has fallen off amongst them ? Oh, it has
fallen off altogether.
10534. Is that only since the Commission has been sitting ? No ; it is during the last two years.
10535. And you attribute that to the action taken by the police ? Yes ; but as a matter of fact the
Chinese do not want the Europeans there. They have always told us that they are a nuisance.
10536. You remember that soon after the Commission was appointed we visited the Chinese gambling-
houses in Goulburn-street and Wexford-street ; apparently someone had been round to the proprietors
of the places previously and warned them that we were coming ; we were told that that was done by the
police ;— do you know 'of any notice of our intention to visit the places being given to them ? No ; I am
not aware of any.
•10537. Up to his retirement from the force, Mr. M'Kay was your superior officer, was ho not? Yes.
1053S. He was in charge of the district at the time to which I refer, was he not ? Yes.
10539. Do you think he cautioned them ? No ; I do not think so.
10510. At all events you did not? No.
10541. Prom your knowledge of the Chinese in that district are they not rather liberal men ? Liberal in
what way ?
10512. Liberal in giving to people to whom they may take a kindly feeling ? No ; I am not aware that
they are.
10543. Have they never offered you anything ? No.
10544. Not even a gold watch and chain ? No ; I do not think that any Chinaman in Goulburn-street,
except perhaps a Chinese merchant, would be worth a gold watch and chain.
10545. Do you know that some of these Chinese gambling-houses are run by wealthy syndicates ? No ;
I never heard that. I do know that there is some rivalry between the Chinese who run pak-ah-pu and
fan-tan houses.
10546. But do you not know that these gambling-places are carried on by syndicates — we have infor-
mation to the effect that they are — that four or five men club together and run gambling-places in
different parts of the city ? It may be so ; I daresay it is.
10547. Have you ever seen fan-tan carried on ? Yes ; several times.
10548. Have you ever been present when a raid has been made and there has been a scramble for the
money on the table ? When there has been a scramble among the Chinese, do you mean?
10549. No ; amongst all the people in the place — the police as well ? No. About seven or eight years
ago, when we made raids, we used to seize everything that we found on the table in the nature of gambling
implements, and so on, and send them to the Inspector-General's office to be sold.
10550. If it has been said that the police scrambled for the money on the tables, and put it in their own
pockets and never accounted for it, would there be any truth in it ? No ; I do not think there would,
because everything has to be produced in Court.
10551. Have you ever heard that the Chinese gambling-house proprietors are in the habit of putting
something by for a police fund? Yes; I have been told of it for years by the Chinese. The fund was
for a kind of mutual protection, I have been told. You will remember that some years ago the larrikins
used to annoy the Chinese a good deal, and, as I understood it, they clubbed together and always
employed the best lawyers to prosecute.
10552. Then you think that it is a sort of defence fund ? Yes ; that is what I have always heard.
10553. But the statement has been made that the money was subscribed by the Chinamen for the bribery
of the police ? No ; that would be impossible. In order to bribe the police at all effectually they would
have to bribe almost every man in the division. It is not as though one man was always on one beat.
10554. Do you find much crime amongst the Chinese ? None.
10555. Are they riotous or drunken? No. There is only one Chinaman in the metropolitan district
whom I knew to get drunk, and he was a fish-man with only one arm.
10556. Do you find the sanitary arrangements of their premises good ? Eairly good.
10557. Not exceptionally bad ? No ; far from it.
10558. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you find that they compare favourably with Europeans living in the same
circumstances ? Yres ; I think so.
10559. Air. Abigail.] Wexford-street is where the bad women associate with the Chinamen, is it not?
Well,
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 273
"Well, in Wexford- street there is a terrace of houses inhabited by Chinamen, and there are two or three Detective
women cohabiting with them, but they are living with them as their wives. Keatinge.
10560. But there are no young girls amongst them ? Well, if there were any there under age we should ,.^^2,
take them away at once. 13 Nov., 1891.
10561. I do not mean necessarily under age— I mean from 16 to 20 years of age ? Not amongst the
Chinamen. j & &
10562 Is it not a fact that in the district there is a very large number of young women prostituting them-
inJeo o ' there are a number 0±' w°men from 18 to 40 years of age soliciting men in that district.
10563. Suppose I put up a notice outside a shop saying that gambling was being carried on night and day
withm what, m your opinion, would be the proper course for the police passing that shop day after day to
adopt f The mere fact of a notice being stuck up outside a shop saying that gambling is going on inside is no
evidence. The point was raised by Mr. Eoberts the other day, and it was decided that you must see the
game being carried on.
10564. But if you saw me putting up a notice to that effect you would watch me very carefully ? Oh,
most certainly we should.
10565. Just as if you thought I was a thief— you would always keep an eye upon me ? Most decidedly.
10566. There is no doubt that 'there has been a great deal of gambling carried on down there ?
Undoubtedly there has been a very great deal.
10567. Then how is it that there have not been more raids made ? Well, until recently we have made
raids and seized everybody there ; but it is very hard to get hold of the real keeper of the" gambling-house.
The law is very much against us too, for we are obliged to serve the men with summonses before we can
proceed against them. However we lock them up and search the place, but the nest morning we have to
release them and serve them with summonses. The usual mode of dealing with them was for the magistrate
to fine them 40s., or levy in distress ; but the Chinamen had to be let go, and it was a very difiicult thing to
identify them again. There are over 500 warrants lying in our station that were issued for Chinamen
whom we cannot identify. If the law was so altered that everyone found in a gaming-house could be
dealt with straight away, without getting out a summons in such case, we could soon put a stop to the
gambling.
10568. That would make people more careful how they went into these places, but I suppose a number
go in out of sheer curiosity ? Yes ; a good many do. If we had the power of walking into a place and
arresting anybody we saw gambling, we could immediately put a stop to it all. I have no less than five
warrants out now against the keepers of different houses in the Goulburn-street district; but I know
this very well, that as soon as we went to serve them the lights would be put out.
10569. Well that can only be the result of a knowledge of your movements on the part of the China-
men. The fact that you have the warrants to put into execution evidently leaks out, and the information
must come from members of the police force ? No ; I do not think so, because on one occasion nobody
knew that we were goiDg to get a warrant but myself, and the fact leaked out.
10570. Well but how did it leak out ? I do not know at all. Sometimes I think it leaks out through
the clerks at the police court who are engaged in malting out the warrants, or else through the solicitors
who lean over the counter there, and hear what is being done. Of course I do not say for a moment
that the clerks would make the information public purposely, but with those lawyers knocking about
the place a word incautiously dropped might easily be picked up and carried to the Chinamen
themselves.
10571. How long have you been attached to the police force ? Since 1867.
10572. Have you always been in Sydney? No ; I have been in Sydney since June, 1876.
10573. And it is your undoubted opinion that the gambling has decreased amongst the Chinese places in
Goulburn-street and Wexford-street ? Most decidedly.
10574. And you do not think that there are now many Europeans indulging in it in Goulburn-street or
Wexford-street ? No ; there are no Europeans playing now except it may be a few speculating in pak-ah-pu
tickets.
10575. How is it that the police do not go for the men who deal in pak-ah-pu tickets ? I applied to Mr.
Beaver, the Clerk of the Peace, some year or two ago, as to whether it was illegal to sell a pak-ah-pu
ticket, and he pointed out that it was not illegal to sell it before it had been marked. Up to that time it
is merely a piece of paper with a number of Chinese characters on, and is utterly valueless.
10576. Do you not know that convictions for carrying on pak-ah-pu lotteries have been obtained in
Melbourne '? Yes ; but not for selling unmarked tickets. Of course the game itself is illegal. It has
been decided by the Pull Court that it is a lottery.
10577. Are they carrying it on to the same extent now as formerly ? Yes, they are ; but they are
carrying it on with closed doors now.
10578. How did you suggest that it should be dealt with ; — are not the public announcements that it is
carried on at certain places enough to enable you to deal with it ? No ; you would have to see the ticket
drawn.
10579. Yes, that is so under the law as it exists at present ; but in any future amendment of the law
how would you suggest that we should legislate in order to make conviction more certain ? I do not
know ; it is a very difficult thing. In most instances you have to see an offence committed before you
can secure a conviction, and I hardly know how you would be able to follow a different course in regard
to pak-ah-pu.
10580. There are " totes" down your side of the city, are there not ? Yes ; but they now evade the
law by taking the money in the street, and our only recourse is to go against them for loitering.
10581. Does the Chinese gambling amount to much in comparison to what is carried on under the guise
of " totes" by Europeans ? Oh, the amounts handled in the Chinese gambling-houses are so small.
Consultations vary from 10s. to £ 1, whereas in playing pak-ah-pu you can put ten marks on a ticket for 6d.
10582. Is it a fact, in your opinion, that the Chinese gambling has utterly demoralised the whole of the
city and brought misery on whole families ? Not at all. The Chinese are a class who stick to themselves.
10583. You are speaking more particularly of the Chinese gambling-house-keepers at the Goulburn-street
end of the city ? Yes ; of the Chinese in No. 2 police district. There has recently been a good deal of
fan-tan played there, but there has been no coin put down, and it has been more like a pastime.
10584. How is it that only Chinese play in Goulburn-street, whilst in Lower George-street the places are
272—2 M crowded
274 CUOESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Detective orowded with Europeans ? "Well, the Chinese are very like the Italians. When one of them gets hold
Keatinge. 0j n ]lousc }jC ]t.^3 his countrymen have a part of it.
isv ^T«ol K''^"'- Have you ever beon inllueiiced in your duty by the knowledge of who are the owners of these
• ■' - premises ? So ; as a matter of fact I do not know who does own thern.
10580. Has it ever come to your knowledge that the Chinamen pay more rental than anybody else will
pay fur a house or sbop ? No ; it has not, and I do not think that is the ease, because when a Chinamen
takes a lease of a place he generally makes his own improvements.
10587. Mr. Quoin/ Tart.] I have just noticed, Mr. Keatinge, that you have been making a raid at Wexford-
street Y Yes, we have.
10588. "Well, if you go on making raids like that you will soon stamp the gambling out ? Yes ; we
should do if we could continue to get in, but they will soon begin to prevent us getting in at all.
105S9. You know several Chinese informers, I suppose ? A man came the other day ; I think his name
was Ah Man.
10590. Is he the only one you know ? Yes ; I do not know any other Chinese informers. There was a
man, who is dead now, called Charlie Lee Wood.
10591. Well, we will let him alone now; — you do not know Loog Pen, the man who lives in Foster-street,
and has a half-caste wife ? No ; I do not know him by name.
10592. AVe brought him up here to give evidence some time ago — he is a little thin old man with
spectacles ? No ; I do not know Mm by name, though I daresay I should know him if I saw him.
10593. With regard to these two games, pak-ah-pu and fan-tan, do you know anything about fan-tan?
Yes ; I understand it thoroughly.
10594. What do you think of the game ? Well it is a very simple game to start with. It is played with
coins which are drawn in fours on a table generally covered with China matting. A handful of coins is
thrown on the table and covered with a cup, and then the croupier begins to draw them in fours, Of
course the game is in favour of the banker. The banker and croupier generally act as partners.
10595. Do many Europeans take part in it ? There used to be a great many, but now there are no
Europeans taking part in it at all.
10596. Are there many gambling-places in G-oulb urn- street ? I think that there are three or four tables
fitted up.
10597. You can always tell as soon as you go into a place by the instruments about whether it is a
gambling-place or not? Yes, you see the tables with the China matting over them.
10598. And what about the lottery-places ? Those are generally in upper rooms, and railed off up to a
person's chin, with bars above like a bird-cage.
10599. Have you any idea how the bank is drawn ? Yes.
10600. How many principals are there in it ? There are generally three or four drawing it.
10601. How many characters are there on the ticket? There are eighty characters on each ticket.
10602. Are they numbers or characters ? They are characters.
10603. You do not find two alike ? No ; there is a different meaning to each character, and each
character is four or five words in English.
10604. Supposing you buy a ticket, what do they give you to show that you have bought it from them ?
Here is a pak-ah-pu ticket, but it is waste-paper. That is what Mr. Beaver gave his decision upon. The
ticket is useless until you initial it. I put my ten marks on aud keep it. The Chinaman takes a duplicate,
and marks the same characters that I have marked on my ticket. The Chinaman keeps the duplicate.
He then puts on your paper the name of the bank, and hands it back to you.
10605. How often does the drawing take place ? Oh, about two or three times of an evening.
10606. Well what is to prevent you making raids on the pak-ah-pu houses if you know where the banks
are drawn ? AVell, it is a very difficult thing to see the banks drawn. Last night I managed to get into
a place for a consideration, but it is very difficult to get now. Eormerly they would let you go and stand
in the place whilst they were drawing the banks, but now they are very particular indeed, and will let
very few of their own people in.
10607. Do you ever see counters used as in fan-tan ? No.
10608. What are the chances against the purchaser of the ticket, do you think ? They are 500 to one.
10609. Have you ever heard of any persons winning large sums of money ? Yes ; I have seen people
win two or three times in the course of a good many years.
10610. Have you ever heard of the bank being broken ? No.
.10611. Mr. Hawthorne."] Do you think that Chinese gambling is anything like as great an evil as the
" totes" run by tobacconists and others ? No ; nothing like.
William Eae called in and examined : —
Mr. W. Eae. 10612. Mr. Abigail.] What are you ? I am a plain-clothes constable in the metropolitan division.
ivi^^isQi 10613. What station are you attached to? No. 2.
v-' 10614. How long have you been attached to that station ? Between seven and eight years.
10615. Then you are frequently called upon to pay visits of inspection to Groulburnrstreet, Wexford-
street, and the surrounding locality ? Yes.
10616. Have you an intimate knowledge of the Chinese gambljng-shops down there ? I have often been
there with Detective Keatinge.
10617. Have you personally seen the gambling going on there? Yes ; several times.
10618. In your opinion is it increasing or decreasing ? I think that it is decreasing. There is nothing
like so much gambling going on there now as there was some years ago.
10619. Who frequent the places chiefly — Chinese or Europeans ? They used to be frequented mostly by
Europeans, but now it is Chinese. There are very few Europeans go there at the present time.
10620. Have you in visiting these places not been treated kindly by the Chinese ? Well, sometimes they
will speak civilly and sometimes not.
10621. Have they ever made you any presents ? No sir, never.
10622. Have they never given you a sold watch or a diamond ring ? No, sir, I do not possess a diamond
ring, and I think there are very few about Groulburn-street.
10623. Can you tell us the reason why, inasmuch as this gambling has been going on so regularly amongst
the Chinese down there, raids have not been made more frequently ? No, I cannot tell you that. . It is
a matter for my superior officers. 10624.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINtTES 0E EVIDENCE. 275
10624. As a result of your knowledge of the district have you to make frequent complaints to your Mr- w- E?fe'
superior officers with regard to the evils observable amongst the Chinese ? Well there is very little evil fjf^^T^f-
to complain about amongst them. 3 Nov.,I89I.
10625. Apart from the gambling do you find that the Chinese are very criminal ? The Europeans are —
some of them.
10626. But I am speaking of the Chinese? I cannot say anything about what the Chinese are now ;
some years ago two Chinamen kept a brothel in Goulburn-street, and I gave evidence against them and
they got six months. Then there were two others who kept a disorderly house in Wexford-street, and we
got a summons out against them, but they took the hint and cleared out before we could bring them up.
As far as I know, there is nothing of the kind going on amongst the Chinese now. Two girls known as
Polly G-l'over and Yankee Bella go down to a house in Eobertson's-lane to smoke opium. Those are the
only women except such as are living with Chinamen as their wives who go amongst them to smoke opium.
10627. Do they only go in the Chinamen's house to smoke opium — not for immoral purposes ? No.
10628. Mr. Hawthorne.'] But I suppose we are to take it for granted, that a woman who goes to a China-
man's house to smoke opium allows her body to be used in anyway the Chinamen like ? No, I do not
think so. I am told that it is the reverse — that women who smoke opium do not care for that sort of
thing.
10629. Mr. Abigail.'] But are there not a number of prostitutes living with the Chinese in "Wexford-street ?
A number of prostitutes frequent the street. It is a very low street. But they do not go amongst the
Chinese.
10630. Are you very often called upon to interfere with the Chinese for disturbances or drunkenness ?
No ; I never saw a drunken Chinaman but once, and I locked him up. Sometime ago Groulburn-street
gave us a great deal of trouble. It was a very low street, and I used to lock as many as forty a month
up from it for drunkenness. That would be as much as four years ago.
10631. There would be some special cause of disturbance when you did that I suppose ? No ; the place
used to be infested with larrikins ; but there is a great improvement there now.
10632. Have you ever Seen much money on the table in these Chinese gambling-houses ? No ; not much.
10633. Have you ever seen a scramble for what money there was ? No.
10634. Never known the police to scramble for it ? No, I have never heard of it either. The most money
that I have seen on the tables at one time was the other night when the police made that seizure.
10635. Is there great difficulty in getting into these places ? Tes ; the law gives them a chance as we
have to get a special warrant before hand, and they watch for us and can see us coming before we get to
the house.
10636. Have you ever thought of any improvement that could be made in the law ? "Well the only thing
would be to give us the power of arresting them without a warrant. t .
10637. And then 1 suppose you run some personal risk if you go in and find them carrying on illegal
games ? Sometimes. .. _, ,'
10638. But you have no doubt about the fact that gambling is decreasing down there ? Oh, I am quite , .
certain of that. There is no question about it.
10639. And you are quite certain that you have never received a bribe or even had the offer of a bribe ?
Never a penny-piece.
10640. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you state as your experience that although the Chinese appear to be carrying
on a large amount of opium-smoking down there, as we have ourselves observed, there is no immorality
connected with it ? Well to my knowledge there is not much oyjium-smoking going on down there now.
There are only one or two houses that I know of where it is carried on.
10641. Does a week pass over without you going into these places ? No, we are always in and out of
them. We go in once or twice every week.
10642. Tou do not ask of anyone leave to go in ? Oh no ; if we are looking for any criminal we go in as
a matter of course.
i.0643. Do you find any females of respectable appearance frequenting these houses ? Not now.
10644. Do you think that the Chinese living in that quarter entice respectable females to leave their
homes and cohabit with them ? If they do I know nothing of it.
10645. Tou have never found any cases of that kind ? No, I have not.
10646. Do you think that the Chinese living in Wexford-street and G-oulburn-street compare favourably
with the Europeans of a similar class as regards their moral practices ? Well, I cannot say as to that.
There is one European girl who lives down there with a Chinaman, and her sister goes there some times.
10647. At all events you do not think there are any respectable females being taken away from their
homes by the influence of the Chinamen ? No, there are only those that I have spoken of.
10648. Are these two respectable women ? No, they are common prostitutes.
10649. And they go into Wexford-street ? No, into Eobertson's-lane. One of them was convicted once
for being a common prostitute, and the other was locked up on one occasion, but the Magistrate would
not convict her. At one time there were a lot of girls living with the Chinamen down there. There were
two girls in one family, but they are not on the town now and I have not seen them for years.
10650. You have already sworn, I think, that you have never received any presents from Chinamen ?
Yes, I have never received any presents from anyone.
10651. And have none of the other constables, as far as you know, ever received any ? Certainly, not as
far as I am aware.
10652. Mr. Quong Tart.] Who is your superior officer P Mr. M'Kay was until he retired, last month, and
X have been under him ever since I joined the force.
10653. From your joining the force until now have you always been oU the same kind of duty ? No ; I
was in uniform until the last two years, and was then shifted about from one part of the district to
another.
10654. From that time to the present do you think that gambling has increased or decreased ? It has
decreased very much during the last twelve months.
10655. Has it decreased since this Eoyal Commission was appointed — about three months ago ? Well,
they are certainly more careful now, and I do not think there are so many houses in which gambling is
carried on. One house in Goulburn-street has been closed since the Commission was appointed.
10656. Do you think there are also fewer in Wexford-street? Well, I do not know. There are several'
warrants
276 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. W. Rae. warrants in existence against the keepers of Chinese gambling-house3 in Wexford-street, but we cannot
'"" ""*"" ~*\ get in to execute them.
13Nov., 1891. 1QG57. N0w l0ok at this Chinese writing; on the placards posted up outside the shops in these photographs.
I believe you could guess what it means ? No.
10658. But has not your attention been drawn to it lately ? I believe the attention of the inspector in
charge of the district was drawn to it lately.
10659. What does it mean ? I was told that it meant " Gambling carried on here day and night."
10660. That is right. Do you see many of the placards in Goulburn-street or "Wexford-street now ? I
believe that most of them have been pulled down.
10661. They are not carrying the gambling on so openly now then ? Wo ; they are very careful now.
10662. How many now, do you think, are carrying on gambling in G-oulburn-street ? I do not think
there are more than one or two now, though they might be all carrying it on for anything I know. There
is one house in G-oulburn-street where pak-ah-pu is being played. "We have tried several times unsuc-
cessfully to get in, but last night we succeeded in watching them finish a game, and if we can get in
to-night we might manage to arrest them.
10663. Have any of the Europeans in Goulburn-street, Campbell-street, or "Wexford-street complained of
this gambling as a nuisance ? No.
10664. "What do you think of opium smoking ? It makes a very nasty smell.
10665. Tou can always tell by the smell whether a place is kept for opium smoking ? Tes, by the smell
and the colour of the people. There is only one place that I know of — that is at the back of Goulburn-
street, where the old man lives — that they smoke the opium in.
10666. Do you know any Chinese informers ? There is one man who used to inform on them, but he is
dead. His name was Bam Lee "Wood.
10667. There was one man who came up the other night — what sort of a man was he ? He is a little
dark man ; he is locked up now for assaulting another man in the late raid.
10668. How long have you known him ? The first time that I saw him was in that raid.
10669. Do you know whether any of the respectable Chinese encourage this gambling ? No ; not to my
knowledge. I cannot say.
10670. Any who are in favour of it or in any way connected with it ? I cannot say. There are very few
that I speak to.
["Witness withdrew.]
Mr. William John West called in and examined : —
Detective 10671. President.] What are you ? A member of the detective police.
West. 10672. Where are you located ? I am attached to No. 2 division.
r^-s^^ 10673. Mr. Hawthorne.] Did you at any time undertake the duty of going round to inform the proprie-
13 Nov., 1891. tors of the Chinese gambling-houses in Goulburn-street and Wexford-street and that neighbourhood
that the Chinese Gambling Inquiry Commission was about to come round on a tour of inspection ?
Never.
10674. Tou never in any way gave any hint to those people that they were going to be inspected, either
by your superior officers or by the members of the Commission ? Certainly not. Before the visit of the
Commission I did nothing more than I have been in the habit of doing during the last eight years.
10675. Are you on very familiar terms with the keepers of the Chinese gambling-houses down there ?
Tes, I have had prosecutions against them for the last five years.
10676. Do you remember the Commission going round recently? Tes ; I showed them round.
10677. Tou did not go round previously to tell them to stop the gambling and keep their houses clean,
because the Commission was coming round ? No. I did not know that the Commission was coming
round until the previous evening.
10678. Tou did not go round to any of these places after hearing that the Commission was going round ?
I would not swear that because I am in and out of these places almost every evening.
10679. At all events you did not warn the occupants ? No, certainly not.
10680. How do you account for the fact that there was less gambling that night than at any other time ?
Well, I thought that it was strange. I went into the big boarding-house at the back of Robertson's-lane
and saw the Chinese whitewashing their closets and walked out again. That was before I knew that the
Chinese Commission was going round. I thought it strange.
10681. And you were not there after you knew that the Commission was coming round ? No.
10682. How does it strike you that they got the information that the Commission was going round ? I
do not know. I cannot say, but I believe that they got it somewhere.
10683. Well, have you any idea how they got it ? That I cannot say.
10684. Do you think it was from any member of the police force ? No ; I do not. Tou see we cannot
get inside the houses without a warrant, and very few know that the warrant is in existence, but if any
hitch occurs, and we have to delay the execution, it is always much more difficult to put the warrant in
force than as though we had taken it out immediately beforehand.
10685. Would you suspect that any of the clerks engaged in making out the warrants at the Water
Police or the Central Police Court give the information to the Chinese ? That I cannot say.
10686. But nobody else except the clerks at the police courts or some member of the force could give the
information? Well, I cannot say. It is possible that the proprietors of the Chinese gambling-houses
have seen the police hanging about their houses.
10687._ I see you have to inspect the places beforehand ? Well, we must be in a position to see who are
the principals in the game, or else there is no case. But as they are very suspicious people, if you pay
one house more attention than another house they begin to imagine that something is going to happen.
10688. But, so far as you are concerned, you have no idea how the information that warrants are in
existence against certain gambling-house keepers is conveyed to them ? No ; I have not.
10689. Mr. Abigail.] Have you ever received a bribe ? Never in my life, from Chinaman or white man.
10690. Tou have been making some successful raids lately have you not ? Only one.
10691. But some time ago ? Tes ; but we only got them fined £5 for pak-ah-pu after a great deal of
trouble.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES 01" EVIDENCE.
m
trouble. It is a most difficult thing to get at them. Every precaution is taken to prevent us gaining a Detective
conviction. The lotteries are generally conducted at the top of the house, in rooms that are very difficult West
of access from the street, and before you can get there the door is locked, and everybody is gone. lrN^^iaqi
10692. Can you suggest any improvement in the law? "Well, I would suggest that if these agents who 13JNov->1891-
sell lottery- tickets were made amenable to the law it would be a long way towards stopping the evil.
10693. Comparing this Chinese gambling— fan-tan and pak-ah-pu— with the " totes" and consultations
carried on by Europeans, is it a very great evil ? Oh, I do not know. I think that at the present time
there are a number of Chinese banks about the city. This much I have no hesitation in saying— that the
money involved in Chinese lotteries is nothing in amount to what is involved in gambling amongst
Europeans. The banks are generally backed up with reserve funds of £200 or £300.
10694. Mr. Quong Tart.'] "With regard to the game of pak-ah-pu, you can always buy the tickets from
the ticket-sellers, and find out in that way where the bank is drawn, and who the principals are ? No ;
you would have no evidence then against the participators in the game. Tou would only have evidence
against the ticket-sellers.
10695. No, but if you sent people to buy tickets you can tell in how many places pak-ah-pu is carried on,
and in that way you could find the principals out ? Yes, but as the law stands at present the person
who sells the ticket is not open to conviction. The law only takes cognizance of those who are at the
back of the lottery. It is only the keepers of the places where the lottery is conducted, or the actual
conductors ,of the lottery, that we can get at.
[The witness withdrew.]
SATURDAY, 14 NOVEMBER, 1891.
3^xtsznt:—
The Mayor oe Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
EEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Peesident.
QTTONG TAET, Esq., | JOHN STUAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Inspector Atwill called and examined : —
10696. President.'] What is your name in full, please ? Alexander Atwill. Inspector
10697. Tou are an inspector of police ? Yes ; in charge of No. 4 division of this city. Atwill.
10698. How long have you been inspector in charge of that division ? Since 1882. , — -^— — \
10699. That is nine years ? About that. H Nov., 1891.
10700. Before that, where were you located? I was about twelve years at the Mint; and also in the
central division. I took charge of the No. 4 division when Mr. Johnson left.
10701. "When you took charge of that division did you receive any special instructions from the head
office ? No.
10702. Do you remember seeing a newspaper account of the deputation which waited on Sir Henry
Parkes in July last in reference to the Chinese gambling-houses in Lower George-street ? Yes ; I saw
the report.
10703. Did you, after reading that account in the newspapers, discuss the matter with any of your
superior officers ? No ; we did not discuss the thing.
10704. Did you discuss it with any of your inferior officers or your men ? No ; not at all.
10705. Did the Inspector- General of Police ask you for any report upon the circumstance? I do not
think so.
10706. Now, speaking generally, are the statements which were made by the members of the deputation
regarding the extent of Chinese gambling in Lower George-street according to fact ? They were largely
exaggerated.
10707. Can you state how many gambling-houses there are in Lower George-street from Bridge-street
northwards ? I think there are altogether about twenty-one, and of that number there are about three
or four— certainly not more than four — where Europeans are in the habit of visiting.
10708. Out of the twenty-one gambling-houses which you say there are in Lower George-street, only
three or four are frequented by Europeans ? I do not think there are more than three, but I am certain
there are not more than four.
10709. Do those four houses carry on a large gambling business ? Not an extensive business as regards
European fan-tan playing. That has been very much exaggerated. I do not speak of the pak-ah-pu
tickets which a number of the people come to buy. The number of those who go there to play fan-tan
would be hardly noticed. I am, I think, within the mark in saying that 95 per cent, of the people who
go to these places are pak-ah-pu ticket buyers. In fact I should say more than that.
10710. Of what class in society are the pak-ah-pu ticket buyers ? Every class of working men.
1071L "Would you say they are for the most part seafaring men, wharf -labourers, and persons of that
class ? Yes • I have seen some coloured men from the ships in port, and working men among the whites
and some larrikins. . ,
10712. Is it your opinion that large sums of money pass into the hands of the Chinese by reason of the
circulation of these lottery-tickets ? They are mostly 6d. tickets. I do not know how much money
passes into their hands. The lotteries are kept going all day— you can buy tickets at any time.
10713. The banks are constantly being drawn ? Yes ; they must do so. But I do not know where the
banks are, and the gamblers are not likely to tell whether they win or lose on the speculation.
10714. It'has been alleged that respectable people hardly dare walk down Lower George-street from
Bridge-street northwards by reason of the congregation of the Chinese there connected with these
gambling establishments. Is that statement correct in your opinion ? No. There is not one syllable
of truth in it. Since I have had charge of that division there never has been a complaint lodged at the
station of any person being insulted, spoken to offensively, or interfered with in any way, either by man
or woman. I never heard of such a thing until the inception of this An ti- Chinese League. Then it was
said that a couple of women had been insulted by some Chinamen down there. But, as I have said, no
such complaint ever reached my ears.
10715.
278 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Inspector 10715. Do you think the business generally, of Lower George-street, has been prejudicially affected by
Atwill. reason 0f the existence of the Chinese gambling-houses in that quarter during the last three years ? I
14lT^1891 ^° not ^ink there is a syllable of truth in that. The trade depression is no more marked in Lower
"' George-street than it is in the centre of the city.
10716. Tou think if there has been any depression in trade, which is probable enough, that it is not to
be attributed to the presence of these gambling-houses ? No. It is a depression which has been felt
throughout the length and breadth of the land, more or less. I have no doubt that the removal of a go6d
deal of the shipping further round the harbour has had something to do with the falling off in trade
amongst those who sell seamen's goods, and the publicans. The late strikes have also contributed to a
falling off in business there, as it has done in other directions.
10717. You have never heard of the Chinese down there being rude to women, or anything of that kind?
I have never in my life had a complaint of the kind. I may say that I have made careful inquiries since
I heard that such a statement had been made, and persons who have been reared in that district—girls
and young married women — testify that they have never been insulted or in aDy way interfered with by
the Chinese; The very reverse has been our experience ; for the keepers of Chinese gambling-houses
down there have actually sent for the police to remove women who have come to their quarters.
10718. Then you admit the existence of Chinese gambling-houses in Lower George-street, but you contend
that the greater number of these are used solely by the Chinese themselves ? Tes.
10710. And that there are some three or four Chinese gambling-houses which are principally frequented
by Europeans? Yes ; there are three or four houses in which Europeans are allowed to go in.
10720. Have you ever had any difficulty yourself in getting into these gambling-houses ? I cannot get in.
Some of my best non-commissioned officers who have visited those places have come to me to see if I
would go round with them, and I have said to them, " If I come with you, you will not get in at all."
They know me too well.
10721. But the plain-clothes constables have gone in, I suppose? Yes; they have paid chance visits
to them.
10722. Now, I want you to state shortly what is the position- of the law with regard to these gambling-
houses ? "Well, in the first place, before I can do anything at all with one of these gambling- houses, I
have to lay the necessary information ; that is to say, I have to go before a Magistrate, and swear that it
* is a common gaming-house, and commonly reported so to be ; upon which I obtain the necessary warrant
to enable me to act. Then, having got the warrant, I have to do my best to get into the house, which is
a very difficult matter ; and I may tell you that, unless I can get one of my own men inside, I cannot
secure a conviction at all. He must see the game played, the money pass, and identify the banker,
. and croupier there. But that is not all. After having been to the trouble of forcing my way in, and
arresting those present, I can only deal with the principals when they are brought up at the police court.
The others who were in the place at the time can only be proceeded against by summons, and that has to be
based on an information laid subsequent to the arrest. The warrant only affects the principals (the banker
and croupier). The Magistrate immediately discharges all the others, and we generally take them into
the yard of the station until such time as the summonses are ready. In such cases we have had the lawyers
come up and say, " Let these men out of the gate, for they are out of your custody now, and you will
keep them here at your own risk." Thus we are placed in a very awkward position. If we let them gO
we cannot identify them again, for they do not give their proper names ; so our only chance is to keep
them, though we really act illegally by doing so, until we can get the summonses to serve upon them.
As I have said, it is necessary that we should see the game going on, and the money pass, and identify
the banker, croupier, and the doorkeeper, if there is one, before we can proceed successfully.
10723. The mere presence of the instruments of gambling would not be sufficient ? No. According to
the Act the finding of instruments of gaming would be justification for breaking into the house in the
absence of better evidence, but it is not sufficient to secure a conviction.
10724. What penalties are inflicted upon the croupier and banker? The fines have ranged from £10 to
£40. On the last occasion I think £40 was the highest.
10725. During the nine years you have been in charge of the No. 4 division, how many raids have you
made altogether ? I cannot say exactly, but I think I made about eleven.
10726. Can you tell us the number of persons against whom you have procured convictions ? I- arrested
133 persons, on whom when searched was found £119. The first raid I made I found twenty-six persons in
the house.
10727. Can you give the dates of the raids ? On the 6th November, 1886, there were found twenty-six
persons in a house, and the fines amounted to £3 9s. 10|d., or an average of 3s. 51d. per man. I made
one on the 6th December of the same year, and found seven persons there, who were fined £1 18s. Id.,
or an average of 5s. 5d. I made one on the 21st June, 1887, and found sixteen persons there, who were
fined £17 7s., or an average of £1 Is! 0|d. On the 6th July, 1888, I found sixteen persons in a house,
who were fined £7 8s. 7^d., or an average of 9s. 7|d. On the 24th July, 1888, I found ten persons in a
house who were fined £21 17s. 8-Jd., or an average of £2 3s. 9d. On the 4th August, 1888, I found eleven
persons in a house, who were fined £6 5s. 10d., or an average of 10s. 5d. per man. In July of same
year a raid was made, but I have no account of it. It was made illegally — that is, without a warrant,
by some indiscreet men. On the occasion of the last raid we found fifty on the premises, and the
amount found on the persons arrested, when searched, amounted to £27 16s. 8d., or lis. ljd. per man.
That makes seven of which I have given you au account, and there were two illegal raids besides.
10728. You have made altogether seven successful and two illegal raids during the nine years ? Yes ; I
was successful in all of them but two. In one case it was proved to the satisfaction of the Magistrate
that the house was a Chinese club, and in the other a fatal objection was raised to the information, which
proved to be informal.
10729. Independently of these raids was it not customary for your plain-clothes constables to enter these
gambling-houses at times and disperse the people assembled there ? Yes ; and on many occasions we
attempted or contemplated raids that we could not carry out owing to the difficulties in the way. "With
regard to the buyers of pak-ah-pu tickets I may say that the constables were not really entitled to
disperse the people who bought lottery-tickets, and they got to know this and would not go at last.
10730. "Will you explain the law as it stands with regard to this pak-ah-pu business ? I may state thai
in the year 1889 a case was referred to the higher court, in which it was ruled against us that pak-ah-pu
was not a game within the meaning of our Gaming and Wagers Act ; that if it was anything it was a
lottery-
CHINESE GAMBLING- COMMISStfUT-r-HINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 27$
lottery — that is, under the 16th Vic, and we do not work under that, but under the 14th Vic. No. 9. Inspector
Under the 16th Vic. (G-eo. Ill) the lottery must be in goods, wares, or merchandise ; but in pak-ah-pu Atwill.
there is no mention of anything of the kind. There is nothing said to a person buying a ticket, either ,f^~^,
verbally or otherwise, either written or implied. Tou just go in and buy your ticket. i4JN.ov.,isyi.
10731. In point of fact the police did try to suppress this pak-ah-pu business ? Tes.
10732. Tou brought a test case, and it was referred to a higher court, which practically ruled that the
law was ineffectual i* Yes ; that pak-ah-pu was not a game within the meaning of the Act.
10733. Mr. Abigail.'] Since then have you not secured one conviction in a pak-ah-pu lottery case ? Ves ;
but that was where the bank was seen to drawn, and the manipulation of the tickets in the bank. This
enabled the Judge to say that as there was consideration of some kind it was a lottery.
10734. President.'] In that case the conviction was upheld ? Ves.
10735. But taking that view of the law, it is your opinion that the process of obtaining convictions against
the pak-ah-pu lotteries would be extremely difficult and tedious ? We simply could not do it.
10736. Notwithstanding that you secured that particular conviction you have -just mentioned, the Jaw is
defective ? Ves.
10737. Can you suggest any amendment of the law as regards lotteries ; — do you think, for instance, that
if it were extended to apply to money and prizes as well as merchandise, &c, that it would meet the case ?
I would not suggest an alteration in that way.
10738. Then in what way would you suggest an amendment ? "Well, I would simplify the law by making
amenable either the purchaser or seller that might be found in the house, and in the case of fan-tan I
would make the fact of the doors being locked an offence against the law, and the finding of gambling
implements in the house sufficient evidence of the purpose to which the house is being put. As I have
said in the case of pak-ah-pu tickets, I would simplify the law by making it punishable by fine or
imprisonment to be found buying or selling a ticket — let both parties be made amenable.
10739. Have you had any of your men dismissed for inattention to their official duties during the nine
years you have been in charge of the division ? No ; not for inattention to duty.
10740. Did you ever have occasion to complain that your subordinates did not take sufficiently
energetic action against the proprietors of these gambling-houses ? Never.
10741. Did you give instructions to your men how to deal with the proprietors of the gambling-houses and
places that you suspected of being gambling-houses ? I do not think I ever gave them definite instructions
on the subject.
10743. "Would the ordinary policeman go his own way in the discharge of his duty with regard to these
places ? An ordinary policeman never enters a building unless he is called in, perhaps to stop some
quarrelling, or is sent there in the course of his ordinary police duty.
10743. Have you ever given any instructions to the plain-clothes constables as to how they should conduct
themselves with regard to the proprietors of these gambling-houses and the houses themselves ? They
have general instructions to visit these places once or twice a week all over the division.
10744. And supposing when they visited them they found gambling going on, what were their instructions
under those circumstances ? None.
10745. They were merely to visit them ? Ves ; for the purpose of keeping down the causes of complaints
in other direction. For instance, if they saw anything in the way of insanitary conditions, or immorality,
or found children of tender age in these places, they were to report to me. ,
10746. And have they ever made any reports to you of the kind ? Ves. They have reported cases of
immorality to me, where young girls have been found in Chinese quarters, and have brought the girls
out, and charged them under the Vagrant Act with having no visible lawful means of support.
10747. Have you had any reports as to business carried on in the suspected gambling-houses ? Yes.
I sent them repeatedly for the purpose of ascertaining whether there was much gaming going on. I
sent them to places for which I had taken out warrants so that I might not be unsuccessful in
making a raid I had everything ready for the purpose.
10748. And you made raids in consequence of the reports you received from your men from time to
time ? Yes ; I trusted to Senior-sergeant Higgins and another man that worked with him to assist me
in what I had to do.
10749. (Sergeant Higgins is a plain-clothes policeman ? Yes.
10750. Have your men in that division been shifted about much during the last nine years ? No.
10751. They are permanently stationed there ? Yes; unless they misconduct themselves they are not
removed.
10752 How many men are told off to do duty in Lower George-street, from Argyle-street to Bridge-
street ? From Hunter-street to the Mariners' Church I have one man on every relief, and, if I can
manage it, I have two on Saturday nights, in consequence of the drunken firemen and sailors that
congregate there.
10753. How many of your men do work in Lower George-street, from the Mariners' Church up to
Hunter-street, allowing for the different reliefs ? There might be about ten.
}0754. Not more than that ? No.
10755. Now, I suppose you know a good deal about the circumstances of your men ; — have any of these
men who have worked in Lower George-street become, comparatively speaking, wealthy, as compared
with those who have worked in Kent-street, say, or other parts of the division ? I do not know of a
solitary man that has become wealthy. As a matter of fact there is not a wealthy man in my division,
nor do I think there are many men in the division who have much beyond their month's pay ahead of
them.
10756. Have you any reason to believe that any of your men have been corrupted by receiving presents
from the Chinese? No ; I never heard a whisper of it until this Anti-Chinese League was formed.
10757. There is an officer under you who is reputed to be wealthy, Mr. Atwill — I refer to Senior-sergeant
Higgins ? "Well, he is not.
10758. What is your idea of wealth ? Speaking in the case of a policeman, I should say that a man is
wealthy who can support his wife and family independently of his pay.
10759. Sergeant Higgins has acquired some property, I believe ? Yes.
10760. Do you believe he has acquired that property in an honourable manner ? Certainly. I
thorouohlv believe that there is not a more honest man in the world than Sergeant Higgins.
b 10761.
280 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINTTTES OF EVIDENCE.
Inspector 10761. I suppose it did occur to you, when these charges of corruption against the police were made, that
AtwU1- some of your officers had acquired property, and that Sergeant Higgins was one of them ? Yes.
*~~^ * 10762. Did you ever take the trouble to inquire how he did acquire his property, or did you know before ?
14 Nov., 1891. j knew thafc he startea to obtain his property on borrowed money, and that he tried to pay off before he
borrowed again. I believe he is considerably in debt to-day. I have sometimes thought he will live just
long enough to clear it off and then die.
10763. Do you know when Sergeant Higgins first acquired property ? Yes ; he acquired some property
very cheap on the Eocks. That was over twenty years ago.
10764. And that property has largely increased in value ? Yes, very largely.
10765. In your experience he is a thrifty man, hardworking and industrious. Have you ever known him
to spend any money in drink at all ? I never saw him drink so much as a glass of beer in my life. Of
course he may go into a public-house occasionally, but I never saw him.
10766. Constable Beadman has also been spoken of as possessing some means ? He came into £1,800 by
the will of a relative, and he was a good while in Balmain, where he was at no expense at all.
10767. You are in a position to state how Constable Beadman and other officers under your direction,
happen to possess property, whatever they may possess, and that they acquired it honorably ? Yes.
10768. And you are quite sure that they have been in no way assisted by bribes or presents from the
Chinese or anyone else ? I do not believe there is a Chinaman in the district that would give them what
would buy a brick.
10769. Then as to the property-owners in Lower George-street, has it ever come to your knowledge that
people in high places have attempted to corrupt the police, and get them to connive at houses being used
for the purposes of gaming-houses ? I do not believe that men in high places have ever spoken to the
men at all, or the non-commissioned officers either.
10770. Have you been deterred or influenced in the discharge of your duty in any way whatever by the
fact, if it be a fact, of people in high places being interested in these properties in Lower G-eorge-street ?
Certainly not.
10771. By Members of Parliament, for instance ? Indeed I have not.
10772. Now is there any connection between these gambling-houses and the prostitution of women by
the Chinese, Mr. Atwill ? Not the slightest.
10773. Whatever opium-smoking, for example, there may be in your division, is not contracted specially
by reason of the existence of the Chinese gambling-houses in that locality? No ; there is not one-tenth
of the opium-smoking that there used to be down there when I first took charge of ihe division.
10774. Have you noticed that any of your officers wear jewellery extensively ? I have seen only one
man with any jewellery.
10775. Who is it ? Constable Beadman.
10776. Do you think it is likely that the jewellery was presented to him by any of- the Chinese merchants
down there ? It is not true.
10777. Do you know how he acquired the jewellery ? Yes ; he showed me a ring he bought some years
ago, and told me whom he bought it from.
10778. Then you have taken sufficient interest in the charges which have been made against the police to
make inquiries, and you are in a position to state that if any of your officers do wear jewellery they have
acquired it in an honorable way ? Yes, with regard to this particular charge.
10779. When I heard of it I made it my business to question the constable. I said to him, " I want you
to tell me exactly where you got that ring you wear, and that pin ?" And he told me then and there from
whom he got them, the persons he referred to being both reputable citizens.
10780. You have made it your business to inquire into these charges, and you are satisfied that they are
groundless ? Yes.
10781. You remember reading in the account of the deputation that waited on Sir Henry Parkes a
statement to the effect that coal-lumpers, after working day and night, would go into these gambling-
houses, and in a few hours lose the whole of their week's wages; — will your experience • bear out that
statement ? I only know of one case, in which a woman told me that her husband Used to take his week's
wages to the gambling-houses and spend them. She was a coal-lumper's wife. Her husband was after-
wards unfortunate. He got into gaol for embezzlement or something in connection with the Coal-lumpers'
Union.
10782. It was also alleged that it was a well-known fact that Lower G-eorge-street was one of the best
beats in Sydney for the police to make money ? There is not a beat in my division or in the city of
Sydney that a policeman can make money out of — at least I hope there is not.
10783. As a matter of fact, you know that the men in your division are not in particularly fortunate
circumstances — that, in fact, they are not more than able to pay their way ? That is correct.
10784. And that if any of them have means beyond the pay they receive you know that they acquired it
in an honorable manner ? Yes ; every one of them.
10785. Do you not think you could suppress this Chinese gambling if more vigorous measures were
resorted to than you have had recourse to in the past ? No, sir. The law must be simplified in the first
instance.
10786. Do you not think that if you made a greater number of raids it would have the effect of putting
down the evil ? Well, so far as that goes, I have never been successful in putting any of them down
entirely.
10787. They simply paid the fine and went on again ? Yes ; they are at no expense for the plant.
They simply have a table, and consequently are very easily set up. Then, again, in making a raid we have
great difficulty in obtaining access to the premises.
10788. In any of the raids you have made have any of your men sustained personal injury ? I do not
know that I could say they sustained personal injury. There were no limbs broken in connection with
any of these raids.
10789. Had not your men to incur personal danger in that duty ? To a certain extent, yes ; and I can
explain how that is : In the first place a raid can only be made on a dark night, and in some cases the
men have had to scale the houses in order to get inside, and this has involved the risk of falling from a
height of two storeys. I know the work has been attended with the greatest difficulty and anxiety to me.
Por instance, I may send one of my men in, and may tell him that I will be in at a certain hour, and I
have
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 281
Lave to wait until that time, and then there are three or four doors to break through probably. One Inspector
night one of my men was a long time before he could tell me how many men there were there, or anything Atwill.
about them, having received a blow from someone, on his seizing the bank. i4N^"isqi
10790J. Have you had any conversation with any of your officers or men in regard to the agitation about JN0A,-'a
these Chinese gambling-houses ? Only with Sergeant Higgins.
10791. Of what nature was that conversation ? I asked him on one occasion if he saw the statement that
had been made by the deputation to Sir Henry Parkes. He said he had read a little, and I then read the
remainder of it out for him.
10792. Before this Commission was appointed did you have any correspondence with the Anti-Chinese
League ? No. I think, on one occasion, when I was in Mr. Buchanan's, and they were talking about it,
I said if the citizens would only help to simplify the law it was the best thing they could do.
10793. You had no communication from the League ? No.
10794. Did you have any conversation with a person named Maguire on the question of the Chinese
gambling-houses in Lower George-street ? Never.
10795. You know Mr. Maguire, I suppose ? I know Maguire. the photographer.
10796. Did you not have any conversation with him at all relating to the League ? Not to my recollection.
10797. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Nock on the subject ? Not until the first meeting had
been held.
10798. "What was the nature of the conversation you had with him then ? I merely asked him what they
had done on the previous night, or something like that.
10799. "When this Commission was appointed, did you go to Ah Toy, cabinet-maker, and ask him to give
you a receipt for some money you had paid him some considerable time before ? Yes ; I asked him for
my bill.
10800. As a matter of fact, you had paid the money ? Yes ; and I had asked him for it (the bill) seven
or eight times.
10801. But you asked him for it after the Commission was appointed ? I did.
10802. Now, I want to know what moved you to do that ? Well I scarcely like to tell that. It is a
private matter entirely.
10803. "When this Commission was appointed you were anxious to get a receipt from Ah Toy for
some money you had paid him a considerable time before. Now why were you anxious to get that
receipt— it is better that you should explain ? "Well, as I have said, I did apply for the bill before,
and not having it when I read the statements made by the deputation to the Premier, I knew not what
might be said if I could not produce this bill, should anything arise to bring it in question. I therefore
determined to have my bill, and in this determination I was supported by the recollection of some
unpleasant experiences I had undergone a little while previously. When I asked Ah Toy for my bill he
said, " What you want it for; I will not ask you to pay twice. I will give it you some other time."
But I told him I must have it. One reason that made me so anxious to have my bill was that some time
previously it was alleged in an anonymous letter to the Inspector-General of Police that I had accepted
a present of a pony for my boy, or my boy had been allowed to accept it. The letter was sent to me, and
I forwarded the receipt showing where I purchased the pony. The Inspector- General returned the
letter to me, with the expression of his hope that I would find out the writer. In another case I
purchased about 23s. worth of books for my son at the High School. I purchased a Key to Colenso's
Arithmetic, and I said at the time I purchased it, " If this does not prove useful to my boy you will let me
return it ?" However, he did keep the Key. This was a cash transaction. But some time after I got
an account for the books, although I had paid cash over the counter. I went to the place and asked for
the foreman. It appeared that he was then in Sussex-street in business. I told them that it was a cash
transaction, and referred them to him. They apologised accordingly. These things necessarily made
me careful about the other matter, especially when I heard what was being stated with regard to the
police in my division.
10804. You had been wrongfully accused by an anonymous writer previously, and you were determined
you would have the receipt for the money which you had paid this Chinaman, Ah Toy, so that you would
be in a position to meet any accusation that might be made against you in connection with the furniture
you purchased from him ? Exactly.
10805. And you swear positively that you did pay Ah Toy for everything you had from him in the
course of business ? Yes. I had from him a washing-stand, a deal table, this book-case, and some
polishing done, and I paid him for everything as I got it.
10806. You buy your necessary furniture in Lower George-street in the same way that you buy your
groceries from the local tradespeople ? Yes ; just the same.
10807. And everything you have required for your family in that way you have paid for ? Yes ; no man
ever had to send a bill twice to me.
10808. You confess that on seeing the statements in the papers charging the police with corruption you
were necessarily alarmed, and induced to provide yourself with receipts for everything, so as to be in a
position to meet any unjust accusation that might be made against you, such as you had already
experienced in another case ? Exactly ; I thought it was best to have my bills.
10809. Do you know Mr. Nolan, Mr. Nock's accountant ? I do not think I would know him if I
met him in the street. _ •
10810. Did he ever say anything to you about a Chinaman having come to him to make out a receipt for
you ? I do not know'him. I never spoke to him in my life.
10811. You do not remember having a conversation with Mr. Nock on the subject of the Chinese
gambling-houses ? I do not.
10812. Do you not recollect calling upon him yourself ? Yes ; just at the time I did.
10813. What occurred on that occasion? He told me of certain things that had come before the meeting
with regard- to the Chinese places, and inferred that the police did not proceed against the Chinamen
because the houses belonged to Members of Parliament, or something to that effect.
10814. Did you not discuss with him the difficulty of getting into the Chinese gambling-houses ? I might
have done so, but I did not wait upon him for that purpose. I just called in to see him on account of
seeing that he had been to the meeting.
10815.
272—2 N
28:3
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — Sim'TES OP EVIDENCE.
I?pe^ii°r 30>il.j-16. Did riot ho mention to you anything about chests or half-chests of tea being hawked about at
" Christmas time in compliment to the police ? No there is not a word of truth in that.
14N*~^"l8qi 10S17. You never had a conversation with Mr. Nock in the course of which he insinuated to you that
'' * such things were nut hawked about at Christmas time for nothing ? .No ; he never made any such com-
munication to me. If he had done so I would have told him distinctly that he was stating what was a
slander upon my men.
lOslS. Then you did not discuss with Mr. Nock on that occasion the difficulty you experienced in getting
into these gambling-houses? I might have mentioned about the difficulties of getting in, but I did not
discuss anything with him.
10819. Did you ever ask his aid in the matter — for instance by saying, " Will you go into these places at
night and let us in " ? I never said that. But I might have said that if the citizens would only enable
us to get in by taking a man in whom we could appoint, it would be of assistance to the police ; but I never
said more than that.
10820. Did you see Ah Toy after you got the receipt from him ? I saw him about a month ago.
10821. Did you see him immediately before he came here to give evidence? No.
10822. Did you make any suggestion to him in any way on the subject ? No. I did not know that he
was coming, or that he was here at all.
10823. Tou never suggested to him what he should say to the Commission about that affair ? Never.
10824. Do you recollect how you paid Ah Toy for that cabinet ? I do not exactly.
10825. Do you keep a banking account? No. I did not pay him by cheque.
10826. Who carried the book-case up to your place ? I do not know.
10827. Did the Chinaman deliver it himself ? I suppose so ; I had nothing to do with it.
10828. Did you give special instructions for it to be taken to your house at night-time ? No.
10829. Tou gave no instructions at all with regard to it ? None at all. It was brought there after dinner.
I was not there.
10830. Did you pay the ordinary price for the book-case ? I think I did. But I am not a judge of these
things. But I can say that if he gave me a bargain he gave it to me voluntarily. He is an honest
respectable fellow. I simply measured the recess where the book-case was to stand, I told him that I
wanted a book-case that size. He charged me £5. He said it was a cheap book-case, but he did not say
whether it was a bargain or not.
10831. Have you much property yourself Mr. Atwill ? I have not too much.
10832. Do you recollect having a conversation with Mr. Maguire, the photographer, in which ex-Inspector
Anderson's financial position was spoken of, at about the time of his retirement from the police force ?
I might have had, but I do not recollect it.
10833. When you stated that you were all right, as you had sufficient property to retire on ? I do not
recollect ever having said such a thing to him.
10834. As a matter of fact you are not a rich man ? I do not know what you mean by rich.
10835. Where do you live ? In Fort-street.
10836. You have a wife and family ? There are nine of us altogether.
10837. What is your salary ? I receive £325 a year.
10838. Do you live in your own house ? No. The Government pays my rent.
10839. Would you find it convenient to resign your position and live on your capital ? No ; I could not
get bread and butter for my children if I were to do so. I might just as well tell you what I have.
I have two houses in Kent-street, which were given to my wife by her father ; that was before I was
married, — sixteen years ago. The first thing I did when I came to this country was to buy a house in
Eailway-place, a leasehold property, which I sold to Mr. Larkins, and made £50 on my bargain. I then
went to Derwent-street and purchased two cottages there, also on leasehold ground, for £80, and I built
larger houses there.
10840. Do you know Mr. George Black ; I believe he is a Member of Parliament ? I do not. I would
not know him if I saw him in the street.
10841. Did he not interview you once ? He wanted to interview me about a public-house which had
come under the notice of the police.
10842. What did he want ? 1 suppose he thought the licensee was hardly treated.
10843. It had nothing to do with the gambling business ? No.
10844. Then all the rumours about your being a rich man are without foundation? Entirely. I may
mention that I got the money to build the two houses by selling some land, two allotments fronting
Johnson-street, which I bought when the Annandale Estate was first sold. That is the extent of my
property.
10845. Tou recollect the time this Commission paid a visit to Lower George-street ? Tes.
10846. Well, it has been alleged that the news of our intended visit was spread about the whole of the
neighbourhood on that occasion ? That could not be ; for there was not one that knew it but myself.
10847. Then you take all the responsibility on that head ? Tes ; I received a note from the Inspector-
General to say you were coming, and to meet you. No one else knew of it. Tou will recollect that you
found some men in one of the places you visited, and they certainly would not have been there had they
known of your coming.
10848. Did you have any communication with the police of the Goulburn-street division about our visit
there ? None whatever.
10849. Then as to the attitude of the police towards these gambling-houses, you maintain that there has
been no neglect of duty whatever ? I do. I have not known a single instance of the kind.
10850. Tou have had no reason to complain of any of your men in that respect ? No. It is not more
than once in twelve months, perhaps, that a police officer is able to make a successful raid, by trvingr his
very best. ' J J e,
10851 Do you remember having a conversation with Mr. Nock in which he drew your attention to the
tact of raids being made m Melbourne among the Chinese ? There was no conversation ; but I remember
him sending a_ memorandum to me in red ink, drawing attention to it, and I thought it was a very
impertinent thing for him to do. On two occasions he sent memoranda of the kind to my house.
10852. When you made that last raid on Moy Ping's establishment, were you properly provided with
crowbars and the necessary implements for forcing an entrance, without going to the shopkeepers in the
neighbourhood to ask for them ? Tes. 10853
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. £8<J
10853. Tou did not go into the shops and advertise the fact that you were going to make a raid by Inspector
asking for the loan of a crowbar for instance ? No, there is no truth in that. I saw the crowbar slung Atwill.
round Beadman's neck in my own office before we went out, and the other crowbar was got at the Water , f-^^2^-,
Police Court. H Nov, 1891.
10854. Do you know Mr. J. Armstrong ? I do, he is a tobacconist and hairdresser.
10855. Do you know if he is interested in running a totalisator ? I do not know. My officers on one
occasion told me that he tried to engage with a man to run a "tote " there, saying that he could run it, and
that the police would not interfere ; but the man to whom the proposal was made would not join in the
transaction with him. As to whether he is connected with any other " tote " or "totes " in the city I am
unable to say.
10856. Have you ever had made to you presents of small value such as chests of tea or jars of preserved
ginger, since you have been in Lower George- street, Mr. Atwill ? No. Further, I can solemnly swear
that in all my thirty-five years service I have never received a single £, or even 3d. or Id. in the shape of
a present from any man or body of men.
10857. Then if it has been stated by any one that you have received such presents, that is false ? Tes,
sir ; if any man states that I have received anything, even to the value of a lead pencil such as I hold in
my hand, without paying for it, he states what "is untrue.
10858. And you still insist that it would have been impossible for the police to do more than they have
done to suppress the Chinese gambling evil in Lower George-street ? Tes, it would be impossible
under the circumstances.
10859. Tou cannot organise a succession of raids now and stop it ? Well, at present I cannot get a raid
made in the division — there is no gambling going on. From the reports I have received from my officers,
and from what I have seen, since this Commission began to sit, I do not think you would find fifty people
entering all these places, except a few might go in to buy pak-ah-pu tickets.
10860. What was Constable Quealy dismissed for ? He was dismissed for drunkenness.
10861. Not because he was neglective of his duty among the Chinese ? No ; he was dismissed for
repeated drunkenness, and I was very sorry for it, because he did good service in checking the larrikins
down there ; but there was no alternative but to dismiss him after the third time of offending.
10862. Have you ever had any conversation with Mr. Maguire about the Chinese gambling evil, and about
making raids upon their houses ? No ; I would not think of it. But it would be hard to remember what
Maguire would say to you ; he is such a man for chattering and talking.
10863. Tou do not remember him offering you some advice, or telling you what was going on ? No ; no
man could instruct me on that score.
10864. Tou do not remember him advising or recommending you to prosecute the people for loitering
outside these places ? No.
10865. Who is your superior officer in the district ? I have no superior officer in that district.
10866. What is Mr. Bead? He is the Superintendent of Police for the whole of the metropolitan
district.
10867. Does he visit your district much ? Tes ; he visits every night.
10868. Has Mr. Bead conferred with you on the subject of suppressing the Chinese gambling ? Tes ; he
confers with the inspectors about every matter in the metropolitan district. We meet him at 10 o'clock
every morning, Sunday excepted.
10869. Do you remember having a conversation with Mr. Maguire about some photographs ? No.
10870. Did you ever suggest to Maguire that he should take the photographs of you and your family gratis
because of the protection that the police afforded the inhabitants of Lower George-street ? I never said
such a thing in my life. It is utterly untrue.
10871. Do you remember having met him at the door on one occasion when he suggested that you should
speculate five shillings in a photograph, and you replied that you never had your photograph taken ?
Well, if I was disposed to have my photograph taken I would not go there ; I look upon Maguire as an
amateur photographer.
10872. Tou never said that he should supply you and your family free of charge ? No ; but if I did say
such a thing I would be joking him.
10873. And you never said that the butcher, baker, and coal and firewood man should also supply you
free of charge for the protection you afforded them ? Well, I think any one can see the absurdity of it.
10874. But it is necessary for you to deny it in so many words if it is untrue ? Then it is untrue— grossly
untrue.
10875. And any conversation that may have taken place on the subject must have been by way of a joke?
I have never had much talk with Maguire at all. He is a person who would want to know more about
police matters, than it would be right to tell, if I was to make much freedom with him.
10876. In making raids on Chinese gambling-houses have you seen a lot of money on the table ? No,
not a lot.
10877. How is that money disposed of when you seize it ? It is taken to the station, and afterwards
forfeited, and paid into the Consolidated Bevenue.
10878. Have you ever heard that the police go into these places occasionally, and disperse the people there
and take the money off the table to put in their own pockets ? I never have ; and I am. sure that no
policeman would attempt to do it. He would not want to be a policeman any longer afterwards if he
did so.
10879. Do you know Sun Sam Kee ? Tes.
10880. What sort of a man his he ? He keeps a gambling-house — that is the house you were in that
night. .
10881. Would you be surprised to learn that he has said m the presence of a witness that the funds of a
certain Chinese society were used to corrupt the police? Tes, I would be surprised; although I scarcely
know the man to speak to.
10882. Have you ever heard that they do contribute to a fund for the purpose of bribing the police ? No.
10883. Or for defending themselves ' against any prosecutions by the police? Tes, I have heard that
they deducted a certain amount from the winnings to protect themselves against prosecution.
10884. Tou are quite sure that no overtures have ever been made to you on behalf of the Chinese
gamblers to stay your hand ? I am quite sure. No man has ever said to me, would you do this or that,
for
14 Not., 1891.
281 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES Or EVIDENCE.
Inspector for aUy consideration, or anything bearing upon it. 1 walk Lower George-street hundreds of times
^AtwilL^ without a Chinaman bidding me the time of day ; and I have never stood inside a Chinaman's place except
when I have been armed with a warrant, or I have been signing a license. No man knows less of the
' Chinese personally than I do.
10885. Do you think your failure to make successful raids on certain occasions has been occasioned by
the Chinese getting information of your intention beforehand ? Well I do not know. I have been
several times unsuccessful. I have never been without warrants. But the place I take a warrant for
to-day might perhaps be changed hands to-morrow.
10886. Tou say you have been unsuccessful, but you do not know whether information has been given to
the gambling-house keepers previously or not ? Tes, I have been four or five times unsuccessful.
10887. Have you ever heard of parcels of groceries or chests of tea being left at the back doors of houses
occupied by the men under your control in that district ? Two boxes of tea were brought to my office,
which had been left— one for Senior-sergeant Higgins — I think, but I am not quite sure now— and the
other for some other man in the force. They were returned as " unclaimed property " to the Superin-
tendent's Office, to be sold. The men said it was not their tea and no one had claimed it.
10888. Tou know that presents have been sent to the residences of officers under you, and in such cases
those officers have reported the matter to you? Tes.
10889. Do you know a man named Lindeman, who kept a hotel in Lower George-street ? Tes, he kept
the " Eopemakers' Arms Hotel."
10890. Did you assist him to get his license for the hotel ? No, I was against him ; I got him fined £30
for sly-grog selling.
10891. And you opposed his application for a license ? I did.
10892. On what ground ? On the ground that he had been fined for sly-grog selling while he kept a
private hotel or boarding-house in Princes-street.
10893. Tou held it to be your strict duty to do that? It was my duty. I knew also that he was not a
good man to hold a license.
10894. "What kind of a house did he keep in Princes-street ? Well, there is no doubt that he sold drink
there the same as a publican.
10895. Of course he alleges that the circumstances leading to the conviction were exceptional, or extra-
ordinary ; but you have reason to believe that it was a common occurrence, this selling of publican's drinks ?
Tes ; the boarder's bills always contained accounts for wines and spirits just the same as a publican's
bills ; I saw them afterwards.
10896. Then, after having been fined for sly-grog selling he applied for the license of the " Eopemakers'
Arms Hotel";— did he get it? Tes.
10897. But through no act of grace from you ? No, indeed.
10898. What kind of a boarding-house did Lindeman keep ; — was it respectable? Well, he used to keep
runners there to wait on the boats when they came in ; that is the kind of house it was.
10899. Did you have any conversation with Lindeman after he got his license for the " Eopemakers'
Arms Hotel," his (Lindeman's) wife and barmaid being present at the time ? I do not think I did.
10900. Did you go into the hotel afterwards ? I went into the hotel perhaps to summons him again.
10901. What was that for ? They took a shop off one end of the house, and I proceeded against him for
allowing his premises to become retail premises contrary to the Act. The magistrates viewed the house,
and refused to renew the license until the house was reinstated in its former position.
10902. Was it so reinstated ? It was remeasured, and the Bench found that the house had the accom-
modation required, and the license was accordingly renewed.
10903. Now, immediatly after that, or at any time, did you go into Lindeman's house and tell him that
he ought to give you £100 for getting his license ? No sir ; he would rather give £100 to bury me.
10904. Tou clearly and utterly deny that you ever made use of those words at any time or under any
circumstances ? Tes. I utterly deny it. I would not make that much freedom with Lindeman.
10905. Do you think it possible — seeing that you had strongly opposed him getting the license — that you
might have said this jokingly to Mr. Lindeman ? I think it is very unlikely that I would. I have never
permitted him to make any freedom with me at all.
10906. As soon as he had got the renewal Mr. Lindeman sold out ? Tes.
10907. Were you annoyed at his getting the best of you ? No. In a case like that I am never annoyed
after I have discharged my duty, which is to put in the objection.
10908. Have you brought in any receipts of purchases you have made from the Chinese ? I never had
but the one.
10909. That is the receipt I have examined you about ?
10910. I believe Lindeman afterwards applied for a license for an hotel called the " Labour-in- Vain
Hotel"? Tes.
10911. Did you meet him in Lower George-street on one occasion, and tell him that you would take good
care he did not get that license because you would oppose him ? I do not think so.
10912. Would you have been referred to in connection with his application for that license ? Tes. He
would not get it without.
10913. In the ordinary course of your duty you must have reported upon that? Tes.
10914. And in that report would you state the facts about sly-grog selling that you have related ? No.
Under .the circumstances, all I had to do was to report that after he had got his license from the Magistrates
he had given the police no trouble. [At this stage Inspector Atwill produced receipt, dated 1st August,
1891, from Ah Toy, for the sum of £5 inpayment for a book-case, ,]
10915. Have you had any communication from the Inspector-General of Police on the subject of the
Chinese gambling-houses in Lower George-street since the appointment of this Commission ? I have
some letters that passed through him from the Commission.
10916. I mean when the Commission was appointed, just after the deputation waited upon the Premier,
did the Inspector-General call upon you for a report ? No.
10917. The Inspector-General never sought any information from you upon the subject of the expensive
jewellery worn by policemen in your division, and the development of policemen into capitalists which
occurred so suddenly as alleged ? Never. The Inspector-General knows well how any man in the police
has got the property he may own.
10918.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
2g£
10918. Do you know anything about the existence of Chinese secret societies ? No, I never heard of Inspector
them. Atwiu.
10919. You know that the Chinese put certain notices or advertisements outside their shops in Lower i£jj0T J891,
George-street ? Tes. •» ■
10920. Did it ever occur to you to find out the meaning of these notices ? I never troubled myself about
what was on their walls. Some of the Chinamen have a wonderful amount of paper on their walls.
10921. "Would you be surprised to learn that these advertisements which appear outside the Chinese shops
announce that fan-tan gambling is carried on there day and night ? I would not. I would think it was
addressed to their own countrymen.
10922. But it would be known to the Chinese interpreter employed by the police department ? Tes, I
suppose so.
10923. Did the interpreter never communicate with you on the subject ? It never occurred to us to ask
for an interpretation. It did not occur to me that those notices would be addressed to anyone but their
own countrymen, because no one else could read them,
10924. You are prepared to swear that only four of those houses in Lower George-street are frequented
by European gamblers ? I do not think there are more. In fact I am satisfied that if there are four,
there are no more where Europeans go in to gamble.
10925. Mr. Abigail^ Has it ever come under your notice that you are held responsible for the existence
of the Chinese gambling-houses down there, that they have been carried on with your connivance ; — have
any shop-keepers made that statement to you ? No shop-keepers have ever attempted to speak to me in
that way.
10926. Now, in reference to these white-paper notices, do you not think it is the duty of the police to
make themselves acquainted with every public notice that is put up, more especially when it is in a foreign
language ? I cannot say that.
10927. Suppose I took a shop in Lower George-street, and put up a notice outside, " Gambling carried
on here day and night," would you not give your ofEcers particular instructions to watch me closely? Of
course we should. In that case, however, we could read it for ourselves.
10928. But does it not become even more necessary to be on the alert when a notice is worded in a foreign
language ? How are we to know what it is ?
10929. You have a Chinese interpreter at your disposal ? Well, that never occurred to me.
10930. Had you known that the notices which have appeared outside about twenty places in your district
indicated that fan-tan was carried on there day and night, would you have given instructions to your men
to watch those places particularly ? Yes ; but I should sav that even with that knowledge they could not
be better watched than they have been, nor could we have had much knowledge of what has been going on
even if we had known the purport of the notices. If there were 100 of these notices put on the walls, I
could not swear an information simply on the strength of knowing the purport of them. We know that
gambling is going on in these places, but I must see it going on before I can take an oath.
10931. Would it not help you in your prosecution to be able to bring before the Bench the fact that these
people publicly announced in that manner that they were carrying on gambling ? I should have to catch
them in the act in the first place, so I do not see how it would be of any particular assistance.
10932. Now, before the last raid you made, do you think this could have occurred, as described by a witness
before the Commission : — A witness was asked a question in reference to the raid, and he said : " One officer
went into a tobacconist's shop, and asked the tobacconist's wife if her husband were in," and she replied,
" No ; what do you want ?" he said, " We are going to make a raid to-day ; have you got a crowbar you
can lend us ?" Is that statement correct ? Was that supposed to be in the daytime ?
10933. Yes ? No ; it could not be correct ; because my men did not know that the raid was going to be
made until about ten minutes before we started.
10934. Is it a fact that all the arrangements made by you for the raid were known in the streets before it
came off ? No ; I could not have caught anyone in that case.
10935. Is it a fact that on nearly every Saturday night in Lower George-street a successful raid could be
made in fifteen or twenty minutes ? It is untrue.
10936. In the course of your replies to the President you have said that you never received any presents
of any kind during the term of your police service ; do you know Mr. Dawson, a fruiterer, in Lower
George-street ? Yes ; I know him well ; he has not been very long there.
10937. What is his character, generally ? Well, I see him very often in the public-houses.
10938. Has he ever been arrested ? I have never known him to be in custody, but he is a tremendous
drinker.
10939. Is there any unfriendliness between you and him ? No ; I bid him good-day when I pass by.
10940. Do you remember giving Dawson notice that you were going to lodge a complaint against Lindeman
when he occupied a portion of his (Lindeman's) premises ? STes ; I think I remember telling him that
some place was likely to become vacant, and that he would do well to shift, as he had no convenience in
the shape of a back outlet where he was ; in fact his wife, an elderly person, had to bring all the slops
and house refuse out the front way, and it was scarcely decent.
10941. And did he shift into the place you had indicated to him ? _ Yes.
10942. Did Dawson offer to make a present to you on any occasion ? No. I never had a thing from
him in my life. On one occasion he said to me, " Mr. Atwill, you smoke, and I am going to get you a
nice piece of tobacco." He afterwards left at the station a small piece of tobacco, what they call sailor's
prick tobacco, wrapped round with string.
10943. Did he send you any cigars ? No ; and I never smoked a pipe of the tobacco. It was as black
as tar.
10944. Now before he left that piece of tobacco at the police station did you ask him to obtain it from
the men-o'-war ? No, there is not a word of truth in it. I never asked a man to obtain a piece of
tobacco for me in my life. He asked me if I would have it. It was the dirtiest looking thing of its kind
I ever saw, about 3 inches long.
10945. Would it weigh a pound and a half ? No, I should say not a half a pound.
10945^. You are quite sure there were no cigars ? Yes ; I never had a cigar from him in my life, or from-
any other man.
10946. He left the tobacco at the station ? Yes, a considerable time afterwards.
10947.
386 I'lUXKSE OA.MBI.IXG COMMISSION — MIXTJTES OP EVIDENCE.
Inspector 10947. If it has been stated that since this inquiry began you have shown a considerable amount of ill-
Jy7*l feeling towards the persons who have given evidence here, would that be correct ? No, I am just the
14Novl89l same as ever I was- ^-s a P°lice officer I should never exhibit any bad feeling towards anyone.
'' ' 1091*. Did you know a Chinaman named Gouldtown? No, I never knew him.
10949. If it has been stated that hundreds of Europeans have been visiting these Chinese gambling-places
up to within the last month, would that be true? It is not true. I will tell you the position of matters.
Two or three causes have contributed to lessen the gambling down there of late years. In the first place,
there was the Chinese Eestriction Act coming into force, and also the removal of the shipping interest to
a large extent from that immediate vicinity, so that there have not been such a great number of sailors
about there as there used to be. Then there was the strike, from which the people, have not nearly
recovered yet, I can assure you, and consequently there is not the money to spend in that way. In fact
the night I made the last raid was about the busiest night we had seen there for three and a half years.
Not but what I am positively satisfied that people will go there. .Some people have a liking for going
into these places, and it is with the greatest difficulty that we can make a raid upon them.
10950. Do you remember Mr. Dawson making a complaint to you recently about a certain place down
there being full of people gambling? I do.
10951. What took place on that occasion? At the time I was giving instructions to some of my plain-
clothes men. Dawson, who had just been visiting a public-house, came over, and addressing me said, " Hi,
just look in there, and see a place full." I said, " Dawson, if you would go home and stop with your wife,
it would be far better for you." He then said, " Oh, if you put up your b back' like that" — and I
said to him, " I. will not permit you talk to me like that in the street ; go into your house."
10952. Tou did not tell him that you would find him another billet ? No ; that was all I said to him.
And I may also tell you that not a single soul was playing fan-tan in that house he mentioned, or ever did
to my knowledge.
10953. Then you state it is incorrect that there has been so much gambling in Lower George-street for
the last two years ? Tes, it is quite incorrect.
10954. Have you ever been told that you ought to send your present staff of policemen into the country,
and get a fresh batch to employ in the detection of the Chinese gambling ? No ; any man who said such
a thing could not be knowing what he was talking about. A new policeman could not go up the street
twice without being known by every Chinaman in the locality.
10955. What have you to say of the sanitary condition of the Chinese quarters down there ? Generally
it is good.
10956. Taking the Chinese generally, Mr. Atwill, are they a very troublesome class of citizens to deal
with apart from their propensity for gambling ? No ; apart from the gambling I have not had the
slightest trouble with the Chinese in Lower George-street. In fact, apart from the gambling, I might
almost say the Chinese would not trouble us once in twenty years.
10957. If it has been said that you walked up a lane with a Chinese gambling-house keeper on one
occasion, and he put a handful of sovereigns in your hand, that would be incorrect, I suppose ? It would
be incorrect. I think I have sworn before that during my thirty-five years' service I have never received
a present of as much as a shilling from any man, or body of men, in the country.
10958. I am now asking you questions on which direct evidence has been given, and I am only putting
these questions to you to enable you to deal with them ; — you state that there is not a word of truth in
the statement about your having received a present of sovereigns from a Chinaman ? There is not a
particle of truth in it. If you will be kind enough, and if you do not think I am doing anything wrong,
I would ask, as bearing upon that, that a letter which 1 have here might be read. [Letter read as
follows] : —
Dear sir, Sydney, 2 August, 1891.
As a lover of fair play, I consider it my bounden duty to apprise you of a conversation I incidentally heard
between Armstrong and Nock at the last named's shop two or three days ago. As you will see by the tenor of the following
conversation between those two gentlemen, a regular "cabal" is in force to annihilate you. Armstrong said to Nock,
' ' Buchanan and Christensen are showing the white feather. They are frightened of Atwill. Atwill has been talking to
Christensen, so Christensen says, and he seems frightened to take any prominent part in the League in future." Armstrong
said, "Look here, Nock, you and I must do the dirty work. It will not do to trust the others. They might come it oh
us. We must move heaven and earth to remove that old wretch Atwill. If not, he will be worse to us than the Chinese
pest. We have all the members for West Sydney on our side, and they will do anything we ask them, so that surely the
influence they will fetch to bear on Parkes will remove him." In fact, Armstrong continues, "I would sooner see Atwill
removed than the Chinamen." Armstrong, who seemed to be the moving spirit, then said, '* We must try and bribe some
of the loafers that frequent the fan-tan shops to swear they have seen the Chinamen give Atwill and his subordinates
money at different times. You know, Nock, a pound or two would go a long way with that class of persons. " To the.
foregoing Nock generally applied in the affirmative, and one time he said, " I will stick to whatever you consider best.
Jack." Pressure of time caused me to leave the shop (after I had made my purchases), although when I left the shop they
were still dismissing the subject. I have done my duty. Beware of these gentlemen, or they will be your downfall.
AMICUS.
Witness : That will give the Commission an idea of what I have to contend against down there in connec-
tion with this matter.
10959. Mr. Abigail.'] I would draw your attention to part of the evidence, as follows : — " I was told by
Mr. Alfred Law that Sub-Inspector Atwill's New Year's box from the Chinese last year amounted to
£150. At least what he said was this — that the Chinese Association had subscribed a sum of that
amount, but the Chinaman to whom it was entrusted was a bit clever, and stuck to £30, so that as a
matter of fact what Mr. Atwill is said to have got was £120" ; — what have you to say to that ? There is
not a syllable of truth in it.
10960. Now, in reference to the effect of the Chinese residents on the business of Lower George-street, is
it not a fact that a number of these places keep their shutters up continually, and thus destroy the prestiges
of the district for trade purposes, and keep business away ? I only know one house that keeps the
shutters up.
10961. Are there not a number of places there where they do no legitimate business of any kind, as far
as appearances go ? Well, a number of these places are used as lodging-houses for the Chinese carpen-
ters and vegetable and other hawkers at night. I suppose in my district there are, at least, 130 Chinese
holding hawkers' licenses. These men do not read, neither do they go to theatres, as a rule, or lectures
or meetings, so that they have no means of passing their time, except to sit down amongst themselves
and play fan-tan until bed-time. Most of these men go to bed about 9 o'clock, and are up again at day-
light. 10962.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 2S7
10962. Are not the hawkers mostly located at the back there ? Yes. There are a good number of IllsP^^or
Chinese married men who have brought their wives there, and have children at the Fort-street school. ^^JJl
With regard to the business down there, I know Mr. Beale had those houses of his done up from floor to 14^^1891/
ceiling, and was not going to let a Chinaman in, but he found he could not get the price for them, and ''
they were eventually let to the Chinese. Other owners had the same experience down there.
10963. Have you heard that the Chinamen pay bigger rents than the Europeans will pay ? .No ; I think
they look to pay smaller rents.
10964. Have you not heard of the Chinese paying bonuses to get into these places ? Never. I think
the landlords are sick and tired of looking for tenants, and that they are only too glad to let them. I do
not think there isa house there would pay 2| per cent, on the capital invested if they paid lower rents
than they are paying now.
10965. Now, returning to the allegation that you suggested to Mr. Lindeman he should give you £100,
you are quite sure that nothing of the kind ever took place, either jocularly or otherwise ? Nothing of
the kind ever took place, but if it did it would be in the merest jest.
10966. President.'] As a matter of f aet you were opposed to him on that occasion ? Tes. I have no
doubt that he thought I was his deadliest enemy, but I was merely discharging my ordinary duty in the
matter.
10967. And you never said to him that you would prevent his getting the license for the " Labour in
Vain Hotel " ? Quite sure. He could not have got the license if I had opposed him.
10968. Mr. Quong Tart.'] In your opinion, to what extent is Chinese gambling carried on at present in
Lower George-street ? It is on the decrease, decidedly.
10969. "What is the principal game played in the houses which carry on now ? Fan-tan.
10970. "Which do you consider the worst — fan-tan or pak-ah-pu ? Well, I look upon any kind of gamb-
ling as a great evil myself. I am hardly a judge as to which of the two is the worst ; but I think there
is more money spent on pak-ah-pu than on fan-tan. I should say there was £20 spent on pak-ah-pu for
every £2 spent on fan-tan.
10971. Do the Chinese or Europeans patronise pak-ah-pu mostly ? Both the Europeans and Chinese buy
tickets.
10972. Do you know anything about the game of pak-ah-pu ? I do not.
10973. Have you taken proceedings against the pak-ah-pu lotteries ? No ; I never interfere with them,
only to put the Europeans out of those places.
10974. It is said that there are about twenty-one gambling-houses in Lower George-street ; — do you know
whether any of these carry on pak-ah-pu at all ? No ; I have not the slightest idea where there is a bank
in Lower George-street.
10975. Have you seen a ticket like this [producing one] ? Yes, that is one of them. The ticket having
been marked its counter-part is sent to the bank, which is drawn at a certain hour of the day or night,
and when the duplicate comes back you can tell whether the ticket you hold has won anything.
10976. Can you tell by this ticket where the bank is drawn ? No.
10977. If you could tell by the ticket where the bank is opened, and the name of the banker, then you
would be able to arrange your own plan ? Yes. I may say when I took charge of the division I used to
be able to see the bank, but that is different now.
10978. What do you think of the chances — the odds, in connection with this game ? I have not the
slightest idea.
10979. You say there are four houses where the Europeans gamble with the Chinese ? I think there are
about that number.
10980. In the other houses the Chinese gamble by themselves ? Yes. I do not call it gambling when
the Chinese play fan-tan by themselves. It appears to be their national amusement. They have nothing
else to do in their spare hours apparently.
10981. But it is against the law? Yes ; it is against the law.
10982. Can you give any reason why Chinese gambling is so largely allowed without any interference by
the police ? Well, the police contend that the amount of gambling spoken of is largely exaggerated. We
say, if there is gambling carried on, it is in three or four houses only. But there can be no doubt that
gambling in these places is very much on the decrease so far as the Europeans are concerned, and at
present there is very little gambling going on at all.
10983. The police have made a number of raids upon the gambling-houses in the city and suburbs ? Yes.
10984. You have made raids yourself in Lower George-street ? Yes.
10985. Then, having the power to do so, why do not the police continue to make raids ? That is just it.
If the doors were left open to us we might be able to do that.
10986. If you can do it in one case could you not do it continually, and so stamp it out altogether ?
No, sir; you cannot do it continually.
10987. And you suggest that some additional power should be given you to deal with the evil ? Yes.
10988. Has your attention ever been drawn to a house as a gambling-house, or a place where gambling is
carried on ? No ; but I know it myself without anybody drawing my attention to it.
10989. You say you have made eleven raids altogether, and the last place I suppose was Moy Ping's ? Yes.
10990. Have you ever suggested to the Inspector-General of Police what would be the best means of
putting down this evil ? It has been suggested, and I believe we shall hear more of it by-and-by.
10991. It has been stated that the police walk up and down the street, and take no notice of these places
although they know them to be gambling-houses ? Yes ; that is what people say, but they do not know
what is going on inside, or what difficulties the police have to contend against.
10992. Have you known of any Chinese informers down your way? Yes.
10993. What kind of characters do they bear ? They are no good. You cannot believe a word they say.
10994. Is it not a fact that these informers let the big places pass by and only put the police on to the
smaller ones ? I do not know. I have not been able to set any estimate on what the informers tell me,
for their only object is to get money out of their countrymen, and they will not do the police or any one
else any good. _
10995. You are quite able to act yourself in these cases, having all the necessary information, where you
go to make a raid, without the aid of an informer ? Yes.
10996. Have you had any complaints from the Chinese merchants down there about the gambling ? The
Chinese merchants have often said they would assist me to put it down. 10997.
288 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Lwpecfc* 10997. Regarding opium-smoking — it has a pecular smell, has it not? Tes.
^*^L 10998. Is it the smell of opium that you notice coming from these places ? Yes, I suppose it is. There
14 Jf'~ ' 1801 " alwavs tne same kind of smell in passing the Chinese quarters there. I very seldom go inside myself.
»orn k J0999. Have you known many Chinese informers ? Tes, a good many.
11000. Can you give the name of any of them ? There was one man named Wood.
11001. He is dead now ? Yes. He was no good. "We acted on his information once, and we never had a
successful case afterwards. He would come and tell us all manner of things, and next day he would go
and tell the Chinamen. I am perfectly certain that I was unsuccessful in several cases through that man.
He carried the information away from us to the others.
11002. Do you know Robert Lee Kum ? Yes.
11003. "What do you think of him ? He is no good.
11004. He belongs to the Salvation Army ? Yes.
11005. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Do you know Mr. Buchanan, Mr. Atwill ? Yes.
11006. He is a publican, carrying on business in Lower George-street ? Yes.
11007. Where you at one time on particular friendly terms with him ? Yes.
11008. On more than ordinarily friendly terms I mean ? Well, I do not know that exactly. Only I
used to go into his place and have a drink, a favour I do not extend to anyone else in Lower George-
street. Dr. Hunter and I used to go in there sometimes.
11009. Have you had a quarrel with him ? No.
11010. Did the fact of his allowing the Anti-Chinese League meeting to be held there change your feelings
towards him ? I had no feeling — I just refrained from going there, that is all.
11011. So that up to the time of the Anti-Chinese League holding their meetings there you were in the
habit of going in and out ? Yes.
11012. Therefore, the cause of your withdrawing your custom from his house was that he allowed the
meetings of the League to be held there ? That is just it. I thought the League were slandering the
police.
11013. Did you think they started with that object ? No ; I do not think so in the first instance.
11014. You think their object in the first instance was a good one ? Yes — to have the law simplified.
11015. What did you think of the statements made to the Premier by the deputation with regard to the
police ? I thought it was slanderous. I felt it a good deal, being in charge of the district, that the men
should be slandered in that way.
11016. You thought the statements made were generally exaggerated, and that the charges made against
the police were without foundation in fact ? I knew they were untrue, and that they would be found out
to be untrue.
11017. Did you ever know of any man in your division, since you have been in charge there, who had
received a present of any kind from any person in the district ? Never, to my recollection, once.
11018. Have you ever suspected by the manner of your men that they were too easy, or that they were
neglecting their duty in any way in regard to the Chinese residents of Lower George-street ? No. I
never expected my men to take action in regard to those houses unless they were called in to stop a
quarrel, or something like that.
11019. Have you ever had reason to reprove your men for negligence ? No.
11020. You never instructed them to trouble about the Chinese more than any other class of people ? No ;
quite the reverse ; I have instructed them to render the Chinese protection, rather than anything else.'
11021. Mr. Abigail.'] Why ? Because of the conduct of the larrikins, and to protect their property.
11022. Mr. Hawthorne.] You have found the Chinese as well behaved as other classes of the community ?
If they were all as well-behaved as the Chinamen we would not have so much trouble in the district.
11023. They give you very much less trouble than the larrikin element, for instance ? Very much ; in
fact there is no comparison at all.
11024. You know Mr. Dawson, who keeps a fruit-shop in Lower George- street? Yes.
11025. Are you on particularly friendly terms with him? No.
11026. How did it come about that you accepted such things as tobacco and cigars from him,? I did not.
There is not a word of truth in it.
11027. If he has stated that you said to him, as he was in the habit of going on board the men-o'-war vessels,
he might get you a bit of tobacco and a few cigars free of duty, would that be true ? No ; it would be
grossly untrue. I would not allow a bit of tobacco or a cigar to be in my place which had not paid duty
any more than I would steal a man's money.
11028. You did not speak to him with the idea of ascertaining whether dutiable goods were being removed
from the vessels or not ? I never spoke to him on the matter at all. I had no object, and I never spoke
to him.
11029. If Dawson has said that he left a parcel of cigars and tobacco in charge of one of your men for
you, that would be untrue ? Yes, grossly untrue. I never received any cigars from Dawson in my life ;
in fact I might almost say the same of anyone else. Certainly, I might receive a cigar from a gentle-
man in the street, but not from a man like Dawson would I accept such a thing.
11030. Did you call at his house to thank him for having left you any tobacco? No, certainly not.
11031. Then if he has said that you did call to thank him he has stated what is untrue ? Yes ; he slanders
me. I never did such a thing.
11032. I want to clear up this point as to how it came about that Dawson was entrusted with this com-
mission, and how the occurrence took place ? Yes ; but you put it in a queer way.
11033. Well, I will put it in another way • How was it that you and Dawson got discussing the question of
tobacco, and what made him take the trouble to get some of this tobacco and send it to you in the
station — that small parcel you referred to ? It came about in this way : I saw Dawson either in the
street or at his own door. Dawson said to me, " You smoke, Mr. Atwill ?" and I answered, " Yes," and
he then said, " I will get you a bit of good tobacco ; I sometimes get a good bit on the ships." "' Very
well," I said, and that was all that transpired. A considerable time after that he left a small piece of
tobacco at the station. It was nothing like a half-pound— black tobacco. I could not smoke stuff like that.
It lay on my mantlepiece until it was as dry as chips.
11034. You did not smoke it ? No ; it would make a man sick to smoke it.
11035. Do you smoke cigars ? Not as much as two in a week. I do not buy cigars myself to smoke.
11036.
14 Not., 1891.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 289'
11036. Mr. Abigail.'] Have you had any conversation with Mr. Christensen about this Commission ? No. Inspector
11037. Have you, in conversation with any shopkeepers down there, who have been examined, or were _*™|_
likely to be examined, warned them not to say too much against the police ? No ; I would not think of
saying such a thing to any man.
11038. Prom your knowledge of the men in your division, do you think it likely that any of them, in
reply to a request to be allowed to make use of a statement which he (the constable) had made, would
say, " Do you think I am a b fool to do such a thing ?" It would be a very improper thing, and
if I knew that one of my men had spoken in that way to a citizen I should certainly report him to Mr.
Head, the Superintendent.
11039. Mr. Hawthorne.] "With regard to the transaction you had with Ah Toy, did you go down to his
place yourself to ask for the receipt ? Tes, I did, once.
11040. "What did you say to Ah Toy ? I said to him, " Mr. Ah Toy, I have repeatedly asked you for my
bill, and I have come for it now."
11041. It never struck you that there was any absolute need for it until you saw the statements which
were made on the occasion of the deputation to the Premier ? No ; I had asked for it before, but after
that I was determined to have it.
11042. Tou considered it was necessary that you should have a receipt for anything which you purchased
from the Chinese ? Exactly ; that was precisely my view of the matter.
11043. Did you say to Ah Toy that they might possibly make a charge against you of having received
the book-case as a present ? I do not think so..
11044. Did you enter into a discussion with him at all ? He said he had no one to make out a bill. I
told him I must have it, as I did not want any doubt thrown on the transaction as a stain on my name in
after-life. I think I said that.
11045. Did you know that Ah Toy would require to go into Messrs. Pelton and Nock's clerk to get the
receipt made out ? No ; and I did not care whom he went to — to get my bill was all I wanted.
11046. "Was the book-case a large one ? I do not think it would be called a large one. I may say that I
do not think Ah Toy would take a penny from me more than it was worth. I suppose I paid a fair price.
11047. Tou consider you had a fair bargain, but nothing extraordinary ? Exactly.
11048. In other words, you did not think you were getting a book-case worth £8 or £10 for £5 ? No. ,
11049. Tou felt under no obligation to Ah Toy in connection with that transaction ? No ; not the
slightest.
Hu50. It would not have prevented you acting against Mr. Ah Toy in your official capacity if he had
deserved it ? No ; unquestionably.
11051. Have you always found Ah Toy a respectably-conducted Chinese resident? Tes; as good as
gold. And I may say the same of every one of the Chinese merchants. I would not desire more gentle-
manly men than they are.
11052. Tou say the book-case was delivered at your house after the dinner-hour ? Tes.
11053. And if it has been said that it was delivered after dark, would that be true ? No ; it would be a
falsehood.
11054. Do you remember whether you paid for the bookcase, in notes or gold ? I am almost sure I paid
in notes, because we receive our pay in notes. I know I did not pay by cheque.
11055. Tou did not tell Ah Toy to show the bill to the Commission ? No; indeed, I did not know he
would see the Commission.
11056. Tou have two men in your division named Carson and Beadman ; — what stamp of men have you
found them ? They are both high-spirited, honest men.
11057. Tou have never had a complaint made to you that would lead you to'suspect them in any way ?
No ; I never had the slightest cause for suspicion of any man in the station.
11058. In your intercourse with Mr. Magaire, the photographer, did he not broach the subject of you
ha\in<» your photograph taken ? He said to me at one time that I had never honored him with a sitting
the same as Mr. Anderson and other officers had done. He spoke in a business way.
11059. "What did you say in reply ? I do not remember; but if I said anything in reply I think it
would be that I did not want to be put in his show-case for my lifetime.
11060. Tou did not say that ? No ; I do not think I said anything.
11061. Mr. Quong Tart.] Is any gambling going on in the Chinese shops on Sunday? No; not that I
know of.
11062. At what hours do they usually play fan-tan ? Prom about 8 till half -past 10 o'clock at night.
11063. Have you known the Chinamen to stand at the doors and invite people in ? I have not heard of
them inviting anyone in.
11064. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you remember having accepted any present at all from a Chinaman in
Queen-street ? I never spoke to a Chinaman in Queen-street in my life. If any such statement has
been made it is a deliberate lie. Tou can see what they are driving at from that anonymous letter which
I placed before you. . .
11065. Tou are quite sure you never received a present from a Chinaman in Queen-street, or any other
street in Sydney ? A Chinaman never approached me in my life in that way. I never received as much
as a threepenny bit from a Chinaman. The man who said I ever did that would hang me.
11066. Have ever you suspected Mr. Nock, Mr. Maguire, or Mr. Armstrong of being men that would
be likely to do you an injury if they had the power ? "Well, I do not know. I might say something
wrong against the men which I would regret in after-life if I answered on the spur of the moment. I
may say that Messrs. Armstrong, Nock, and Maguire are men whom I have had very little to do with ;
in fact I have kept myself very much apart from everybody down there. I have a very troublesome division
under my charge. A police officer who will do his duty is not likely to make friends for himself. If I
were offered a present, either by a Chinese or a European, I should look upon it as a snare, and not as
11067. Tou have never had anything recorded against you since you were a police officer that could
possibly be interpreted to mean that you had at any time received a bribe ? No. I never had a scratch
ao-ainst my name either here or in the Old Country.
11068 How lon°- is it since you succeeded Inspector Johnson in that division ? I succeeded him in
18^' 11069.
272—2 0
290 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EYIDENCE.
Inspector 11069. And during the whole of that time you have never been found fault with by your senior officer
Atwill. £or ^e marmer jn wliich you have discharged your duty ? Never.
14lT^1891 1107°- How was it that you and Dawson got at loggerheads the other night when he approached you
ov"' on the subject of Chinese gambling? His manner was offensive, and he eyed me as if I was a dog, and
then he spoke as I have already stated.
11071. If it has been stated that there was a crowd in front of his shop blocking up the footway, and
extending half way across the street, would that be untrue ? Yes, decidedly untrue.
11072. He did not approach you with civility, and draw your attention in a respectful manner to the fact
of a crowd of people being there ? He came up to me in a drunken manner.
11073. Do you think he was under the influence of drink at the time? I am sure he was. Not a day
passes but he is on the booze.
11074. Is he addicted to that kind of thing ? Tes.
11075. And you say he came up to you in an offensive manner? Tes, and stamped his foot, and when I
told him he had better go home he said, " Is that the way you are going to put up your b back ?"
11076. And it was after he used that language that you threatened to lock him up ? I told him to go
home at once. I would be sorry to lock up a man of his age.
11077. Tou do not know who has given evidence before this Commission ? No ; I have not gone out of
my way to ask who has been summoned to the Commission ; and I do not really know whether you have
had one Chinaman or three before you. One Chinaman did come up to me and tell me that his son had
been before the Commission, and he said he was very sorry for it.
11078. "Was that Mr. Law ? That was Mr. Law's father who spoke to me. He said, " I am very sorry
to say that my son was before the Commission, and he was wanted to tell a lie upon you."
11079. Did he state what the lie was ? He said something about what his boy was wanted to say, or
should have said, and I told him not to trouble about that.
11080. About Lindemann, do you remember having gone into his house when he got his license for the
"Eopemakers' Arms Hotel" ? I do. I went in to see if his house was furnished in accordance with the
Act, and force him to put new beds in his house.
11081. So that it was an official visit ? Tes ; I told him if he did not put sufficient furniture in his house
I would summons him, which 1 did.
11082. And the only other time you went to the house was in company with the Magistrates ? Tes, and
Mr. Macintosh said it was my fault that the house was not better furnished.
11083. Tou never went in again to indulge in a bit of jocularity while Lindemann's wife and barmaid were
present ? No, not to my recollection.
11084. If it has been said that' you visited that house on one occasion, and said to Mr. Lindemann in the
presence of his wife and the barmaid, that he ought to give you £100 for allowing him to get his license,
is that true ? No ; it is grossly untrue. I have never made that much freedom with Lindemann.
11085; Tou never were on intimate terms with him? No ; because he always was a law-breaker.
11086. And you iept him at arms' length in consequence ? Tes.
11087. Do you remember having gone to Dawson, and told him that Lindemann was sure to lose his license
for the "Eopemakers' Arms," and that he had better shift his quarters? No; I said that a certain
house which I indicated was going to become vacant, and as he had told me that the place he was in was
inconvenient, because he had to bring his slops out from the front, he had better take this other place, as
it would be better for his wife. This shop Dawson occupied at the time, and he had not got the use of
Lindemann's yard from the back, so they had to bring the house refuse out by the front to get into the
yard by way of Barker's Lane.
11088. Then you did not speak in a spirit of animosity towards Lindemann, but in the interests of sanitation ?
I was principally moved to speak to him in the interests of the aged woman his wife, who was put to so
much inconvenience in the way I have described.
11089. Did you on one occasion say to Maguire that the Government did not pay you sufficiently, and
that was the reason you would like to have your photograph taken free of cost ? I never said anything
of the kind. It is utterly untrue.
11090. Have you had any conversation recently with Mr. Maguire ? No ; and I do not think I ever will
have any.
11091. Have you noticed that Mr. Maguire keeps away from you very much of late ? Tes ; he goes the
other side of the street when he sees me.
11092. Is that because you have attempted to approach him to see what information he has with regard
to the evidence given before this Commission ? No ; I think it is because he thinks he is under a cloud
of condemnation.
11093. And you do not go so far as to salute him ? No ; not that I have any illwill to him. But I have
heard that he has taken an unworthy part in the Anti-Chinese League altogether, and I thought and think
still that the police deserve better of the citizens in Lower George-street. I can say on behalf of the
eighty or ninety men there that they have always faithfully discharged their duty as police officers. I
would not be the last to find fault with a man if he was not doing right. But they have done their duty
well, and if it were not so I would not want to be over them.
11094. Have you heard of your men going in with the Chinese down there to partake of refreshments?
I have heard of it since this League commenced.
11095. Do you think it was necessary for them, in the interests of their duty as policemen, to go in with
the Chinese and have refreshments for the purpose of obtaining information ? Well, our plain-clothes
men have very often to be in disagreeable company. In the early days I have found fault with them
myself. I have seen them take in prostitutes about the Prince of Wales Theatre and treat them, and I
have seen them take thieves off the streets and drink with them ; and at that time I thought it was queer —
that is, when I was younger ; but I have found that it is a case of "thief catch thief " with the police.
They must be among the people who are known to be criminals. I have known them to run down criminals
through the assistance of the Chinese. I would not make a good detective in that respect, because I am
rather particular as to whom I eat and drink and sit down with. If the plain-clothes constables want to
be successful men they very often have to mix in strange society.
11096. The discipline in the case of plain-clothes constables is rather more free than with the men in
uniform ? Tes.
11097.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EYLDENCE. 39LJ
11097. With regard to Sergeant Higgins — Have you suspected him of doing anything wrong ? No. I Inspector
would as soon suspect myself. He is a thoroughly hdnest man. I am quite certain he would rather give At-will.
a poor man a shilling to get a bed than take one from anyone. '^x~'^7sni>-
11098. You think any charge of unworthy conduct or suspicion against Sergeant Higgins would be 14Ndv->
unfounded ? Certainly.
11099. Mr. Quong Tart.] Could Dawson '■ walk a chalk-line " that night when he came up to you to
complain of the crowd ? He could not.
11100. Have you found the Chinese to compare favourably with the general run of the European popula-
tion ? So far as the sanitary condition of their places is concerned, 1 think they are really clean.
11101. Is there much prostitution carried on among the Chinese down there? There is none. There
are a good many of them living with women, and they take good care of them.
11102. Do you find that they take many women into 'their places and girls of tender years, and make them
smoke opium ? No. I may say that our plain-clothes men have these places regularly under observation.
But unless the Chinese pick up with women to take and live with themselves, there is nothing of that
kind. In fact some of the lower class of women from the other end of the town do come there occasion-
ally, but they are not there five minutes before the Chinamen come to us and ask us to take them out.
[The witness withdrew.]
MONDAY, 16 NOVEMBER, 1891.
firmttt: —
The Mayor oe Sydney (Me. Alderman MANNING, J-?-)> President.
ERANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pkesident.
QUONG- TAET, Esq., | JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. Alexander Mackay called and examined ; —
11103. Mr. Abigail.'] You, have been in the police force of New South Wales, Mr. Mackay? I have. Mr.
11104.. And you are now retired? Yes. A. Mackay.
11105. How long were you in the police force? Over thirty years. I was in charge of No. 2 police s~^~*-***\
station when I retired. 16 Nov., 1891.
" 11106. How long were you in charge of No. 2 police station ? About eleven years.
11107. During that time, of course, you had to do with the Chinese in Groulburn-street, Wexford-street,
Campbell-street, and throughout the whole of that district ? Yes, they were in my district.
11108. Have you any information as to how many Chinese, about, were located in your district? I have
no idea. We took the number of them before I left, I think, but I forget what it was.
11109. Do you know how many premises they occupy ? There are a large number now. About two years
ago they were located principally in Groulburn-street, but from there they spread to Campbell-street.
11110. Would that be a kind of overflow from Groulburn-street ? I do not know, but I fancy they came
from the other end.
11111. However you know they increased very considerably ? Yes, very much.
11112. Since about two years ago ? Yes. They came down to Campbell-street and got possession of
"houses there. Latterly they have begun to locate themselves in Wexford-street also, in a terrace of
houses belonging to the late Mr. Ben. James. In fact they hold possession of nearly all of one side of
' that street, from the corner of Elizabeth-street and Wexford-street, on the left-hand side going towards
Goulburn-street. ,
11113. Now, what is the nature of their habits — do they carry on business ? I think they do. A number
of them are engaged selling vegetables during the day, for instance, and in the evening they play fan-tan
and amuse themselves in their own way.
11114. Do you know how many fan-tan places there are in Wexford-street? When I left I think there
were two there ; what we should call bad ones, that would not be put down, although we used very often
to go in and talk to them and threaten them, but they would take no notice.
11115. What class of people visited these places to gamble ? The Chinamen. Some larrikins occasionally
go in to buy pak-ah-pu tickets.
"11116. They are not recognised as places of general resort for fan-tan playing by Europeans ? Oh, no.
11117. What would you say of the moral state of the Chinese quarters in that street; — are there many
women anions them ? I do not think so. Three or four years ago the larrikins and common class of
girls used to go to the Chinese houses to smoke, and all that kind of thing ; and some of them would smoke
opium. Some of the Chinese are married to European women, and have set up little establishments of
' their own and these women who live with the more respectable class of Chinese, keep the places in very
good order, that is clean and tidy. _
11118. Did you regard that street as one of the worst in your district ? The larrikins and prostitutes
used to frequent it very much. _
11119. Were disturbances common in that street ? There were rows occasionally m connection with the
women and girls. The men would come down to see the girls ._
11120. Do the Chinese ever create disturbances there ? Sometimes they used to quarrel among themselves,
thouoi not very often ; disputes used to arise over the fan-tan playing.
11121. How many raids were made on these gambling places during the time you were in charge of No.
2 station ? There were five raids made on Chinese places.
11122. In how many years? I am only speaking of the time I was there myself. There were five raids
on the Chinese and' one European. I dare say some members of the Commission may remember it. We
made a raid on premises at the back of the "Dog and Duck Hotel," and apprehended thirty-one Europeans
11123 There were no Chinese connected with that establishment ? No, they were all Europeans there.
Since I am speaking of raids, I may mentiou three houses, bad ones, in Campbell-street, that we visited.
One day T got three warrants out for the three houses at the same time, and I took my men down to the
Haymarket and having made very complete arrangements, I made a successful raid upon the three places
simultaneously, and cleared all of them out, taking the prisoners to No. 2 station where they were
locked up. ' ' ll124-
202 CHTXESE OAMBLIXG COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIMiNCE
16 Nov., 1891.
Mr- 11121. Did you secure convictions against them ? Yes.
Mackay. j^25. "Were there any Europeans in these places? No ; there was not a European in any of the three
houses.
1112(5. From your experience, the Chinese gambling-houses are not largely frequented by Europeans ?
"When I left the police force there was one house in Goulburn-street which the Europeans used to fre-
quent, but they used to keep the doors locked, and not a policeman or anyone else could get in to see
what was going on, so carefully was it guarded. "We got inside several times, but could not make a success-
ful raid.
11127. You never made a successful raid to find Europeans present? No. On the occasion wo made
the raid upon these three houses I think there were two or three American negroes among the Chinese.
11128. Can you recollect how much money was on the table on the occasion of the successful raid you
have mentioned ? A mere trifle — perhaps 30s. in the three houses. But I am not certain of the amount
now.
11129. The Chinese do not play for any high stakes? No; they generally play for 6d. or Is. They
make a great noise sometimes when they are playing amongst themselves, but what they say we do not
know.
11130. Is it you opinion that there is not much immorality among the Chinese down there ? "Well, apart
from the gambling, I do not think there is anything wrong with them at all.
11131. Apart from that they have not given the police much trouble ? No ; very little trouble indeed.
11132. Generally speaking, are their premises kept in a cleanly manner, or are they dirty? I cannot say
they are dirty ; some of the Chinese there are married to European girls, and they keep their premises
pretty tidy.
11133. Is there much overcrowding of the premises in the Chinese quarters? There is one place in
Eobinson's-lane — which used to be Mr. Robinson's .coach factory — where they are packed as thick as
possible, but I do not think they gamble in there much.
11134. Have you ever had complaints made to you about the Chinese molesting women in any way ? I
do not remember hearing' of any complaints.
11135. Have you heard of any assignation-houses being kept by the Chinese in that quarter? No ; I do
not think I have heard of that.
11136. Have you ever heard of any young women or girls being decoyed thera for the purposes of prosti-
tution ? No. Of course I am speaking now of two or three years ago. European girls used to go there,,
but whether they were decoyed, or went of their own accord, I do not know. I should imagine they went
of their own accord. They were young prostitutes.
11137. "Was any complaint ever made to you about your men receiving bribes to allow these gambling-
houses to be carried on without police interference ? I never heard of such a thing as bribery in connec-
tion with the police of this city until this Commission was appointed.
11138. Did you read the account in the newspapers of the deputation that waited on the Colonial Secre-
tary with regard to Chinese gambling before this Commission was appointed ? Yes.
11139. You saw that the police were charged with getting diamond rings and gold watches, and so forth ?
Yes ; and I was amazed at it. Of course I am speaking for myself ; I cannot say what my men were
doing.
J1140. Mr. Hawthorne.] Did you ever hear anything in regard to any oE the men in your division
receiving presents of any kind ? No ; never.
11141. Mr. Abigail.'] You have been a long time in the police, and have been in charge of No. 2 Station,
which is a very important division ? Yes ; it is a very troublesome division.
11142. And you have a fairly good knowledge of the men attached to that station ? Yes ; I think I
know them all.
11143. "Well, during the time you were in charge of that station did you ever have to dismiss any of your
men, or recommend them for dismissal ? Do you mean for bribery, or what ?
11144. I am coming to that presently. Have you had any dismissals ? Lots of them were discharged.
11145. Now, among those cases, were any of the men discharged for receiving presents of any kind from
the residents of the district ? No ; I never heard of such a thing.
11146. Did it ever occur through neglect of duty on the part of the men so dismissed, in allowing persons
who should have been proceeded against to go scot free ? No ; I do not think so. I do not remember
one case of the kind.
11147. "Were they principally dismissed for drunkenness? No. They were as sober a lot of men as ever
I met with.
11148. "What would be the cause of their dismissal ? Perhaps merely trifling matters ; that I cannot
remember at present. It might be insubordination, or something which the Inspector- General might
think a serious matter, requiring their dismissal from the force. They might be dismissed for compara-
tively small offences against the regulations.
11149. About how many men are there attached to No. 2 Station ? There were about ninety, all told,
when I left.
11150. Speaking of the ninety men, generally, what was your opinion as to their honesty and integrity ?
I had. the highest opinion possible of them as a body of men. Of course we might get a black sheep
occasionally.
11151. Did you ever hear of any of your men becoming possessed of household property whilst in the
force ? I daresay they have ; men who have been in the force for a considerable time. But as far as the
men in that division are concerned, I can say that a more trustworthy lot of men I have never met.
11152. "Were you in the habit of visiting these Chinese places yourself ? I used to go round occasionally
and threaten them, perhaps, but it had very little effect.
11153. Do you remember the time that the Commission paid a visit to Goulburn-street? I heard of your
being there.
11154. Did you go round, or send your men round the day or two days before to warn the Chinamen
that the Commission were going round ? Certainly not. I was round there the night you would have
been there, or the night before, but I certainly never warned a soul of it. I have heard that a well-known
criminal said that I did so, but it was a lie.
11155. There is no truth in the statement that you went round the Chinese gambling-houses and warned
them
CHINESE GAMBLINO COHAriSSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 293
them not to play that night, as the Commission was coming round ? Never such a thing came out of my Mr.
lips. I was round to caution them, and I have been doing that all along. A> Mackav-
11156. Mr. Hawthorne.~] In cautioning the gamblers you made no reference to the proposed visit of the ,,^7^"^,
Commission ? Not at all. I did not know that you were coming. "'
11157. You have a good knowledge of the law under which you act with regard to these people ? Tes.
11158. Kindly state to the Commission the mode of procedure when you make a raid, and tell us how it
is you do not make raids more often, when you know that this gambling is carried on ? The mode of
procedure is this : When we are certain that gambling is carried on in a particular house we go to the
police court for a warrant to make a raid upon that house and against the persons we find there.
11159. Have you to communicate the names of the individual gamblers in writing ? Only the principals.
If we know the keeper of the house we give the name. Having got the warrant, the next step is to make
arrangements for the raid, most probably in the evening of the same day. Sometimes warrants are got
out, and we are not able to execute them. I think I left one or two at the station that we had not been
able to execute. The gamblers sometimes get knowledge of our intentions. In order to make a
successful raid we have to catch them in the act of playing. "We must have a man inside to see them
play before we can execute the warrant.
11160. Have you experienced any difficulty in getting into these places ? I did not down there, except
in the case of that house I. have mentioned in Goulburn-street, where the Europeans used to go. They
kept it barred and locked, and we tried it time after time, but could not manage to effect our purpose.
11161. In the other cases you were able to walk in ? Tes. "We had a man in plain-clothes who would
be affecting to look on carelessly, and at a given signal from him we would go in, and keep inside all that
were present and arrest them, and take them to the lock-up.
11162. You then proceed against the banker and croupier, and the door-keeper, if you know him ? Yes,
and all the others — the visitors, as it were.
11163. You have to proceed against them by summons afterwards ? Yes ; but every one found in the
house is taken before the magistrate the following morning.
11164. The most difficulty you have to contend against is ? The difficulty of securing convictions in
these cases.
11165. In what way particularly ? "Weil, we have always thought, and I think so still, that if the law
were amended in that respect a great deal of this Chinese gambling could be put down.
11166. In what way would you recommend that the law should be amended? I do not know that I could
recommend. But I will tell you what the police officers did two years ago. The whole of the inspectors
and sub-inspectors of Sydney met together to consult on the subject. We had the Acts of Victoria and
New Zealand, dealing with the subject, before us, and we selected several of the sections from each of
these Acts, which appeared to us to be applicable to the condition of the things here, and these were for-
warded to the Government with the view of having our law amended in such a way as we thought would
enable us to secure convictions much easier. It would have removed the difficulties about getting in, and
all that sort of thing, concerning which you have questioned me.
11167. Was that sent to the Inspector-General? Yes.
11168. You do not know what became of it afterwards ? No.
11169. In visiting the Chinese quarters, have you noticed the white paper notices which appear outside
their houses ? I cannot say that I did. I have noticed some of a red colour.
11170. If you had known that the white paper notices stuck up outside these places announced that fan-
tan gambling was carried on there day and night, would you have given greater attention to them ? I
cannot say that. I thought I was giving them all the attention I could. I might pass up and down, and
perhaps take no notice of these papers. I know they used to hang out notices in red Chinese lettering,
on the shutters.
11171. Nobody, I suppose, according to law, would be entitled to put up notices of that description — at
least not without exciting police suspicion and prosecution ? I do not think it would be a ground for
prosecution, even if the purport of the notice were known. I have never tried it.
11172. Mr. Hawthorne^] You never called in the aid of a Chinese interpreter to ascertain the meaning
of those notices ? No.
11173. Mr. Abigail^ Do you think that these people, keeping houses as they do, should be brought under
the provisions of the Common Lodging House Act ? Yes, I have no doubt they should.
11174. They should be made to provide the same air space, and maintain them in a state of cleanliness as
the European houses ? That is my opinion.
11175. Mr. Saivthorne.] How many years were you in the police force altogether, Mr. Mackay ? Over
thirty years.
11176. During the whole of that time has there been any report against your character in any way what-
ever ? I have never heard of a thing having been urged against me, except what was said in Parliament
at one time about my being hard upon the publicans.
11177. That was in connection with applications for publicans' licenses ? Yes.
11178. There has never been any charge against you in any way since you entered the police force ? I
never heard of such a thing.
11179. You have never had. it charged against you that you accepted a bribe from any person, or a present
that was likely to have had the efFect of making you more lenient towardsjthe people with whom you had
to deal, than was consistent with your duty ? Never. I dare say that some people in my district might
have thought I was too strict, that is all.
11180. You read the remarks of those who addressed the Premier on that deputation, and it struck you
that there was no truth in the statements made with regard to the police ? I thought it was a gross
falsehood, from the knowledge I had of the police officers in Lower George-street.
11181. Have you as many Chinese living in your portion of the police district of Sydney as Inspector
Atwill has in his ? Well, I cannot say what number he has, but I think there are more down this way
now.
11182. Did you instruct your men to make daily visits to the Chinese houses ? Well, perhaps not daily,
but I gave them general instructions to visit the Chinese quarters, and they did so.
11183. On their return are the men supposed to furnish written reports of anything that strikes them
on their visits to these places ? No, if they see anything important, they tell me, and I take action upon
•ithat with regard to making raids, or anything like that. 11184.
294 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 11184. If they saw a great display of immorality on the part of the Chinese would they bring that under
A. Mackay. y0ur notice ? Tes, most decidedly.
lfirT^sor 11185. And also if they saw gambling carried on systematically by the Chinese there they would draw
16 Nov., 1891. your attention to it? Certainly, they have done so, and I have taken action accordingly.
11186. If a statement has been made to the Commission that either you or any of your officers gave
information to the Chinese gamblers, and warned them to be careful, as the Chinese Commission was coming
down on the following Saturday night, would, that be true ? It is quite untrue so far as I know. Of
course I could not know what would be going on among my men.
11187. You could have no object in giving this information to the Chinese ? I could have no object in
frustrating the objects of the Commission — how could 1 ?
11188. Your object would be rather to assist than retard the Commission ? Certainly.
11189. How do you account for the Chinese being made aware of the proposed visits of the Commission,
if they were known only to the Commission itself, and perhaps the inspectors of police in the Sydney
district ? Well, my impression is that your interpreters and the witnesses that have been examined
here must give information. For instance, I have known of the questions which have been put to the
Chinese witnesses here, on the following night.
11190. But how could information on that particular point leak out; — do you think it was on the part of
the officials connected with this Commission ? No.
11191. Do you mean, when you speak of " interpreters," that you mean it was through the interpreter
connected with this Commission ? "Well, there would be no difficulty in the interpreters informing their
countrymen down about G-oulburn-street, and Wexford-street, and Campbell-street, if they wished to
do so.
11192. We have only one paid interpreter here ? The fact of his being paid does not make much
difference in my opinion. But, as I have said, I heard of the Chinese witnesses being examined here.
The witnesses themselves told some members of the police force the following night the questions that
were put to them — that is the leading questions, regarding the alleged bribery, and so on.
11193. In reply to Mr. Abigail you stated that a well-known criminal had said that you gave information
to the Chinese with regard to the proposed visit of the Commission to their quarters ; — to whom did you
refer? I alluded then to what my men had told me that a man had sung out that " old Mackay was
round telling the Chinese that the Commission was coming."
11194. Do you know his name? No, but I can get a witness that will tell you his name, and what he
said about me, that is supposed to have given rise to this statement.
11195. This man has been convicted by you, has he ? No ; but I was told he was convicted.
11196. He is a man of unreliable character ? I have been informed so, but do not know of my own
knowledge that he was ever convicted. He lives in Engine-street, I believe.
11197. The man we refer to stated that he was an iron turner, and lived in Allen-street, Ultimo, and that
his name was Kigby ? Perhaps he is the same man — I do not know. As I have said, Detective West will
tell you all about the man I refer to. On the occasion when the Commission were going round to
G-oulburn-street, some of my men were about in plain clothes, and one of them came and told me a
couple of hours afterwards that so-and-so, a well-known criminal, who was known to Detective West, had
been heard to sing out at the corner of the street, that " old Mackay was round warning the Chinese that
the Commission was coming."
11198. Where warrants have been taken out for the purpose of making raids on these gambling-houses
have you ever suspected any of your men of giving information to the Chinese in the matter ? No.
11199. Did youemploy men of long service in the force to do duty in the Chinese quarters ? Yes ; the
■ best and most experienced constables that I had.
11200. And you never found any of your men giving information that would defeat prosecutions in these
cases ? Never.
11201. You found them, on the contrary, always willing and anxious to assist you? Yes, in every
particular.
• 11202. In short, you never found out anything in connection with your men that would lead you to
believe that they were accepting presents so as to perform their duty in a dishonest manner, or to neglect
■ their duty in any way ? No, certainly not.. I do not believe that anything of the kind ever took place
in my division.
■ 11203. Mr. Quong Tart.~\ With regard to Wexford-street, Mr. Mackay, you say that the gambling is
confined to the Chinese there — that there are no houses frequented by Europeans ? No ; as I have said
- 1 db hot remember any but the one house I have mentioned where Europeans were in the habit of going.
11204. Was that the place where a row occurred, and an iron bar was used ? Yes ; we tried to get at
that and could not.
11205. Do -the same persons occupy that now ? I fancy they are shifted. They do not keep possession
of these places long.
11206. I gather'from what you say that so long as they (that is, the Chinese) play among themselves you
do not take so much notice of them ? Well, I do not think it is such a very great crime, so long as they
do not have any Europeans or young girls among them.
11207. Wherever you have found any Europeans in these places, or young girls or children there, you
have taken action at once to put a stop to it ? Yes ; the fact is, that we used to take them by the neck
and turn them out — that is, the young men of the larrikin class who are in the habit of visiting these
places.
11208. Do you know how many of these places carry on the pak-ah-pu business ? In the houses in
G-oulburn-street they sell pak-ah-pu tickets for the places that carry on in Lower George-street, or
anywhere else. They also sell tickets in Campbell-street ; but the lotteries may be drawn anywhere.
There may be some there now.
11209. How long is it since you retired ? A couple of months.
11210. In your time did you find any pak-ah-pu lotteries iu Campbell- street ? There was one there, but
they stopped it. About a month before the Commission came down there was one upstairs in one of the
houses. We visited it several times, and it was done away with. The fixtures were there, but there was
no play going on.
11211. You can tell by the appearance of the place where pak-ah-pu has been carried on ? Yes ; I know
the
CHINESE GAMBHNG COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 295
the game, I spent a month studying it, so as to be able to explain it to the magistrates and Judges. Mr.
Detective Keatinge and I were weeks studying the game in connection with the first case we took before A> Mfekay'
the magistrate. /—— 'v-— v
11212. Where was the house— in Goulburn-street ? Tes ; I think it was in Goulburn-street. But we 16NoT->1891-
tried one case in particular ;— it was the first case tried in Sydney, before the time I am speaking of.
w 1a :i Dldy°u s?cure a conviction ? No. The magistrate said it was an offence unknown to our law.
We did not explain it, and could not make the magistrate understand it, and the case was dismissed.
11214. How long is that ago ? It is about four or five years ago ; however, I succeeded after that, and
got a conviction at the Quarter Sessions.
11215. How were they punished— by fine ? Tes ; they were fined heavily. I really forget the amount
of the fine.
11216. Do you remember the names of the defendants ? No.
11217. You say you understand the game ;— look at this ticket ? Tes ; this is one of the tickets produced.
There are I think eighty letters in the square, and you mark off so many.
11218. Do you know how much they can win at the game ? I heard of one man winning £75 one night,
but I do not know whether it is true or not.
11219 What do you think of the chances of the game ;— does it favour the banker or the buyer ? It is
all m favour of the banker— it is a most deceiving game, the worst of the lot ; the chances are 100 to 1
I should say.
11220. Do you think it is worse than fan-tan ? Tes ; because the Europeans, young and old, go in for it.
11221. Have you any idea whether you can tell from the ticket the name of the banker, or the place where
the bank is kept ? No ; because we catinot read it. We only know the process gone through in the game.
11222. Tou say in one case you got a conviction at the Quarter Sessions ; give us the particulars of the
case ? As we had not succeeded in the first case, we— that is Detective Keatinge and I — made a study of
the game. We went upstairs, and saw the whole process. One man sings out, and another marks off
the tickets,_and puts them into a bowl. We saw a lottery drawn, and brought them to court ; they were
then committed for trial, and at the Quarter Sessions were- convicted, and heavily fined.
11223. Suppose you knew that lotteries were carried on now could you not punish them ? We cannot
get a conviction against them unless we see them draw the lottery, and that is the difficulty.
11224. Could you not get at the ticket-seller ? Not at present. The law does not make the ticket-seller
amenable.
11225. If the law were amended so as to enable you to proceed against the ticket-seller would that prove
effectual in stopping the operations of these banks ? It would be a great assistance ; doubtless the
ticket-seller ought to be amenable as well, but the present law does not affect him ; if it did there would
not be so much pak-ah-pu as there is.
11226. Tou have said that no obstacles were put in your way in going into these Chinese houses in your
district ? That is correct, where only the Chinese assemble among themselves.
11227. If anyone has stated that the police, knowing of the existence of these gambling-houses, have
purposely shut their eyes to- the fact, is that a fact ? No. Of course I can only speak for myself, and I
know I have taken notice of them, and prosecuted them.
11228. In Campbell-street are there not three places ? I know of one or two places there — perhaps
there are three.
11229. Do you know the names of those places ? I really cannot tell you ; I got warrants out for one
or two houses there — No. 65 I think ; but I did not take much notice at the time ; these coming in the
way of ordinary duty with us.
11230. Have you ever had any suspicion that any of your officers in that district were bribed by the
Chinese ? No, I never heard of such a thing.
11231. In your time did you ever dismiss any of your constables for any offence ? Several ordinary
constables have been dismissed perhaps, but not for anything of that kind as I have already explained.
11232. Tou say you had a meeting of inspectors and sub-inspectors to consider the Chinese gambling
question ; — how long ago was that ? Well, it was not the Chinese gambling altogether that we met to
consider. It was the Betting-houses Suppression Act we met to study, but we took in the Chinese
gambling as well, and selected certain portions of the Acts we had before us that seemed to meet the case
of Chinese gambling.
11233. At what hours of the day is gambling mostly carried on in these places? In the evening I think.
So far as my knowledge extends most of these Chinese are engaged selling vegetables in the day, and
they amuse themselves gambling in the evening after dark. They gamble more on Saturday than any
other day in the week.
11234. Have you ever received information from Chinese informers ? Tes ; but we could not act on
their information without finding out for ourselves whether there was anything in it, which I used to set
my men to do, and they would generally find that there was not much in it.
11235. Tou found that the informers were worse than those they informed upon ? Tes, many times
worse. Some of those men who act as informers come down from the country, and I may say that they
generally want to get a portion of the fine — in fact that is what they appear to do it for.
11236. Tou do not think they act from a desire to benefit the community, but in their own interests?
■ Tes ; for their own benefit. I may say there was one man that ga\e me information shortly before I left.
I sent Detective West with him, and they succeeded in getting a conviction against the banker and
croupier, and so on. That informer, I believe, was here. I saw him the morning he came to you.
11237. Have you ever found any respectable Chinese engaged in gambling? No ; they are against it.
11238. Have any Chinese or Europeans ever complained to you about the Chinese gambling being a
nuisance to the neighbourhood ? No. One man in Surry Hills wrote a letter to the Press about a lot
of gambling being carried on in Campbell-street. It was shortly after that I think that we made the
raid on the three houses I have spoken of in my evidence. That was the only European I remember
having made a complaint. The Chinese have complained sometimes, but I think that has been a matter of
spite one against the other.
11239. Have you found that there is much opium-smoking down there ? No, not a great deal.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mi.
206 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. Alfred Potter called and examined : —
Sub-inspector 11240. President.] You are an inspector of police ? A sub-inspector.
Potter. H241. "What division are you engaged in ? At present I am in charge of No. 1 division.
im^^isqi H2^2- How long have you been located there ? Since March. 1890 — about eighteen months.
' • 11243. "What locality does that division embrace ? Prom north to south, between Margaret and Liver-
pool Streets ; from east to west, between College-street and Glebe Island.
11244. That does not include the Chinese location in Goulburn and Wexford Streets? No.
11245. "Where were you located before ? Prom 1885 to 1890, when I came here I was in charge of what
is called the Eedfern division.
11246. Does that embrace Waterloo ? Yes ; it embraces Eedfern, "Waterloo, Alexandria, and Darlington.
11247. Mr. Hawthorne.'] It does not extend to Botany ? No.
11248. President.] The boundaries you have mentioned include all the crowded portion of Waterloo and
the Chinese gardens there ? Yes.
11249. Mr. ITawtkorne.] During your residence in the Eedfern division, were you required to make many
raids in connection with Chinese gambling ? No, I never made a raid there.
11250. Is gambling not carried on much in the Eedfern district amongst the gardeners? Not amongst
the gardeners. I may explain that the Chinese locality in that direction is generally spoken of as Waterloo,
but it is in reality in the borough of Alexandria, which abuts on the Botany Eoad.
11251. That is the dividing line between Waterloo and Alexandria? Yes.
11252. Where are the Chinese most numerously congregated? That would be in what we used to call
Eetreat-street, in the borough of Alexandria, just before you come to the Waterloo stopping place, where
the motors take in water before starting for Botany — near the Public School.
11253. Are there not a good many on the left-hand side there ? No, not in Waterloo.
11254. Not as many as in Alexandria ? No. There are a number of Chinese gardens in the direction of
Shea's Creek, and the road leading to St. Peters.
11255. What do the Chinese labourers generally do after they have finished the work of the day ? Those
who do not remain in their houses go down to the gambling-houses in Eetreat-street.
11256. Are there regularly organised gambling-houses in Eetreat-street ? Yes ; at the time I left there
were a number of. places which I could recognise as nothing but gambling-houses.
11257. Have they been in existence since you left ? Well, I have not been there since I left the district.
11258. Who is now in charge of your old division ? Sub-inspector Lawless.
11259. During the time you had command of the district how did you find the Chinese conduct them-
selves from a sanitary standpoint ? Prom a sanitary standpoint the houses in Eetreat-street were capable
of great improvement. The houses were very light structures, built of iron and slabs.
11260. Did you find that they had separate places for stowing their vegetables, or did they stow them in
their sleeping compartments ? I think I shall have to explain. Eetreat-street is a blind street, off Botany
Eoad ; at the end of it a fence and gateway. It had originally been the 'Bus Company's stables, and the
houses called gambling-houses are on both sides of the small street. On the inside of the gate there
are a number of small tenements occupied by Chinese hawkers, furniture makers, and one or two rag-
pickers, and in two or three of these places they certainly did stow the vegetables. The great evil was that
they were kept in baskets in these small close rooms. I never saw men sleeping on the vegetables ; they
would generally be placed in one end of the room.
11261. And at the other end of the room would be the sleeping-berths, I suppose ? Yes.
11262. How -many men would sleep in one room? In these small places occupied by hawkers npt more
than two.
11263. Did you find women frequent these places at all ? Well, when I first went there I found I had
to adopt a certain course. When I wont there in 1885 I found in Eetreat-street particularly that a great
number of the houses were occupied by Europeans of indifferent character — principally low women, who
lived there and only attracted others of a like or perhaps worse class. 1 accordingly made certain arrange-
ments for dealing with the state of things 1 found there, in which I was ably seconded by my sergeants
and constables, and after a time we succeeded in routing out all these characters by bringing them up under
the Vagrant Act. In fact only one woman remained who lived in the top house of the street, and she
eventually got into serious trouble herself. Prom that time until I left, Eetreat-street, together with the
place where the hawkers lived inside the gate, was what you might call a Chinese quarter, pure and
simple.
11264. You confined that particular part of the district, which had previously been inhabited hy a mixed
population, to the Chinese altogether ? Yes. At times we would have women of low character slipping
into these places, but most of the Chinese were opposed to their coming near the place, and they would
let us know.
11265. You found amongst the Chinese residents there men who were disposed to conduct themselves in
a respectable manner ? Yes.
11266. And who aided rather than interfered with the police in their duty ? Yes. In the matters of
that kind — such as low women coming there — they would let Us know, and we would warn the women or
arrest them.
11267. You found that although they engaged in gambling they had some respect for morality ? Yes,
I think so. They were certainly opposed to these women coming near the place.
11268.^ Prom a sanitary point of view what was your experience of these places? Well, the houses there
are built on poor sandy soil, with pit-closets, and the places were not always in a good sanitary condition,
but I drew the attention of the local inspector of nuisances to it, and he would go round once or twice
a week and remonstrate with any of the residents who seemed to he remiss in the matter of keeping their
places clean. As a result we managed to get that quarter tolerably clean.
11269. Do you remember hearing of any great losses being sustained by those who indulged in the
practice of gambling in these places ? No. In the fan-tan rooms the stakes are mostly coppers — you
very seldom see silver.
11270. They play for small amounts ? Yes. Of course it is possible in the games played that the
counters — little buttons that they use — represent some considerable value, and they might in that way
play for a higher stake. I think, however, that the bulk of the gambling was for the few pence invested
by the gardeners who come in and put their pennies on the fan-tan.
11271.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 297
V271" ^F^ile Jou were resident in tne Bedf ern district did you find that the European population visited Sub-inspector
the gambling-dens very much ? No ; I only found one European there, and he was put out very Potter-
promptly. * /— — A— - ->
ii o£q' ?ut,liad T0U occasion to tum out any large number of Europeans from these places ? No. 16 Nov'' 189L
11273. bo that the state of things prevailing in Lower George-street as regards Europeans visiting the
Chinese gambling-dens did not exist in the Bedfern district during your time? No ; we had our larri-
kins there, of course, but they do not affect the Chinese quarter.
11274. What arrangements were those you made when you first went to take charge of the Eedfern
district, and which you say had the effect of separating the European from the Chinese population ;— was
it a system you laid down to apply more particularly to the Chinese ? Tes, I may say at once I thought
it was better to recognise the evil, and beep it within bounds— that is, to keep the Chinese in one place,
where 1 could have them under command as it were, rather than cause them to spread over the district
by subjecting them to continual prosecution, in which case it appeared to me that the evil might be
greater, inasmuch as it would be less under my control. Of course I took the responsibility of this
arrangement. I went round and saw, that they left off at 10 o'clock every night, and at 11 o'clock on.
Saturday night ; and all the Chinese were told to go home, which they did, either to their gardens or got
on to the trams, and went elsewhere. And I took care to see that on Sundays there was no gambling
about the place.
11275. Are we to understand that up to the hours you have mentioned the police winked at the carrying
°v1 ni, §amblm& in.tnis P^ce ? So far as I was concerned I never interfered with fan-tan playing among
the Chinese at all in the evenings during the hours I have mentioned. I allowed it to go until such time
as I thought everything should be quiet about the place, and then they had to go away.
11276. Did it not strike you that if the gambling was an evil after 10 o'clock at night it was also an evil
earlier in the evening ? As I have said, the gambling was only amongst themselves — there were no
Europeans mixed up with it. We took care of that. Sometimes I have thought the evil is magnified as
regards gambling among the Chinese. It seems to me that with them it is a national amusement. Where
Europeans take to one pursuit or another in which they have an interest the Chinese take naturally to
fan-tan playing to while away the time.
11277. Have you found the Chinese a sober race of people ? Tes ; particularly so.
11278. And this fan-tan playing is the only kind of amusement they find for the employment of their
spare time ? Yes.
11279. While the Europeans stay at home and read the papers, perhaps, or go to the theatre or the
public-house, the Chinese, being unable to do the first, or unwilling to follow the other practices, simply
resort to fan-tan playing or pak-ah-pu ? We had very little pak-ah-pu down there. The gambling they
carried on was fan-tan, and, as I have said before, for small stakes.
11280. You never looked upon it as a great evil, or, at any rate, that it was likely to do much harm to
anyone but the Chinese themselves, and that not to any great extent ? We recognised, of course, that it
was a breach of the law ; but, at the same time, as it was confined to the Chinese themselves, I did not
think it expedient to take the matter in hand further than to keep the houses under control in the way I
have stated.
11281. Upon the whole, have you found the Chinese residents to compare favourably with the European
portionof the population which may be said to move in the same stratum of society ? Well, they were
never disorderly, or caused any trouble to the Europeans down there.
11282. For instance, do you find the larrikin element of the white population more objectionable than the
Chinese ? Yes ; certainly. The Chinese do not promote disorder in the streets. On one occasion a
Chinaman was brought up for breaking a woman's leg, but they had been quarrelling.
11283. Was the woman living with him ? She had been living with him. It was just about the time I
went there.
11284. Is there much opium-smoking going on in that district ? There is, or was, a certain amount, but
not very much. It is principally amongst the older Chinese. They seem to be seasoned to it.
11285. The younger ones go in for tobacco ? Yes — Chinese tobacco.
11286. Did you find the Chinese guilty of such offences as assaults upon children or anything of that
kind? Not generally speaking. There was one case in which a Chinese was convicted of indecent
assault, and in which two European women were convicted of aiding and abetting. Also, two young girls,
under the age of 16, were said to have been assaulted by a Chinaman there, but the medical testimony did
not bear out the charge. We brought up several girls under the Industrial Schools Act, and the nature
of the evidence in these cases was that they had been seen going to the Chinamen's houses ; but although
under the age of 16, they were older in other respects — girls of bad habits.
11287. They were presumably trading as prostitutes with the Chinese? It is hard to say, but I would
draw that inference.
11288. Looking to the extent of Chinese gambling in the city and suburbs of Sydney, has it ever
occurred to you that stringent legislation is necessary to deal with the question of Chinese gambling ?
Well, that is a difficult question to answer after the expression of opinion which I have given that
gambling appears to be a national amusement among the lower order of Chinese.
11289. Do you think the gambling propensity of the Chinese is a greater evil in the city than the
kind of gambling practised by so large a proportion of the European population in the shape of
"totea" and other forms of betting? Your question suggests the answer. When I look round and
see so much gambling going on all round, I often ask myself how the Europeans can throw the first
stone in the matter.
11290. It seems to you to throw the stone of reproach at the Chinese under all the circumstances ? It
does, at times, I must admit.
11291. It occurs to you that the evil amongst Chinese is small as compared with the gambling in many
forms practised by the Europeans ? I think the loss to Europeans from our system of gambling is far
greater than that sustained. The Chinese have neither wives nor children to keep in most cases. On the
other hand it is possible, in connection with the European gambling, that the butcher and the baker are
large sufferers from the evil.
11292. You think that instead of legislating for the Chinese population in this respect specifically, there
is reallv more need for legislation to deal with the European portion of the population in respect of the
272—2 P gambling
298 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sub-Inspector gambling evil generally? I cannot say that exactly, although I would be very glad to see all forms of
Potter. gambling blotted out.
irn^^irqi 11293- Mr. Abigail.'] Do you know that in Lower George-street it is said that hundreds of Europeans
"• visit the gambling-houses there, and that in many cases working men lose the whole of their week's wages
in those places ? I believe that is the case from what I knew of the place previous to 1885. 1 know that
the gambling-shops there used to be patronised largely by wharf-labourers, coal-lumpers, and sailors, and
I have no doubt there was a great deal of truth in the remarks I have heard there about the wives of theBe
men going short in consequence.
11294. That imparts a more serious feature to the Chinese gambling, does it not ? Certainly, speaking
of that particular locality. But Mr. Hawthorne, I understood, was confining me to my experience of
the district of which I have been speaking more particularly.
11295. Tour impression is that the law ought to be put in force against gambling generally ? I would
like to see it applied to all forms of gambling.
11296. But fan-tan or pak-ah-pu, if largely indulged in by the Europeans, you would, I suppose, regard
as a serious evil ? As any form of gambling, decidedly.
11297. Mr. Hawthorne.-] Looking to the amount of gambling that goes on in Lower G-eorge-street, with
all its attendant evils — such as labouring men going into these places and losing all their earnings ; — do
you think some such regulations as you introduced in the Redfern district could be introduced _ with
good effect at that end of the city — that is to keep the Europeans from all contact with the Chinese,
especially with regard to gambling? I do not think so, because the conditions are so widely different. I
had a very small street or place to deal with. I do not think yoa could apply the same arrangement to a
wider area such as Lower George-street and its vicinity ; besides it must be admitted that in the arrange-
ments which I thought it expedient to make under the particular circumstances I have mentioned, there
was a certain amount of illegality.
11298. Mr. Abie/ail.] Tour chief object I understand was to keep European women from frequenting the
Chinese quarters there for immoral purposes ? Tes ; that was the primary object. It must not be under-
stood, that as a police officer I took it upon myself in any sense to frame regulations of my own ; I simply
introduced a system of working which appeared to me to be expedient under the particular circumstances.
11299. How long have you been in the police altogether ? Eighteen years.
11300. Have you been all that time in the city of Sydney? Tes ; I was from 1873 to 1883 at the central
station.
11301. How long have you held your present position ? I was appointed a sub-inspector in 1884.
11302. Tou have, I suppose, had a considerable amount to do with the police constables in different parts
of the city ? Tes.
11303. Speaking generally, what class of men have you found them — reliable or unreliable ; honest or
dishonest ? I should think that they are generally reliable men. If I find them otherwise it is my duty to
report them, and get them removed as soon as possible.
11304. Did you read the account of the deputation that waited upon the Premier before this Commission
was appointed, at which statements were made about bribery and corruption of the police, and so forth ?
I did.
11305. Did it ever occur to you before you read those statements that the constables were being bribed by
the Chinese gambling-house keepers to let them alone ? No. I saw something — a paragraph in one of
the papers — dealing with the subject, in which something was said about a " police sustentation fund." It
struck me that this was an error — that possibly the Chinese themselves formed a fund to meet possible
expenses of police prosecutions against them.
11306. Tou thought any fund of that kind would be a defence fund to pay the expenses of the
prosecutions ? That is what I thought.
11307. It was put forward that 2d. out of every shilling of the winnings of these gambling-houses was
kept back for the maintenance of a fund to bribe the police ? Tes ; I saw that in another paper.
11303. And you never heard of that until it appeared in the newspapers ? No.
11309. Has it ever come under your notice, by complaint or otherwise, that the police have neglected
their duties in the different districts you have been connected with ? No ; I do not remember any
complaint of that kind being received when I was at No. 4 station assisting Mr. Atwill.
11310. How long were you at No. 4 station ? Two years.
11311. "While you were there did it ever come under your notice that constables evinced a particular
desire to get on the Lower George-street beat ? No. On the 1st of the month the officer in charge is
supposed to make his arrangements for the disposal of the men on the different beats, and they are
selected according to the nature and necessities of the different beats, some of which will require greater
experience than others.
11312. Tou never knew them ask to be put on the Lower George-street beat ? No. I cannot remember
any man being put on there through favour or request.
11313. Tou never heard in connection with the police on that beat that they received presents in money
or kind from the Chinese gambling-house proprietors to induce them to let them alone ? Never.
11314. "Were you influenced in your duty while you were down there by your knowledge of the ownership
of any of those places ? No. I must confess that after a time I got to know who the houses belonged to,
but I can say that such knowledge did not influence me in my duty in any way. I never prosecuted any
of them down there, but very often on a Saturday night I would have to take a sergeant or a senior-
constable with me and go round these places, and if we saw any young men or boys in them we would
turn them out on the streets.
11315. "When you visited these places did you find large numbers of Europeans inside? Tes; on
Saturday nights I have seen a variety of people there, from labouring men to what I would consider
clerks or shopmen.
11316. "Would they play fan-tan or pak-ah-pu ? Both.
11317. When you went into these places and saw them playing fan-tan, did you ever see much money on
the table ? No, mostly coppers ; there might occasionally be some shillings.
11318. "Would you be surprised to hear that hundreds of pounds have been won in a night in these
places ? I cannot say I should be surprised ; as I have said before, the counters they play with some-
times may carry heavy stakes.
11319.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EYTDENCE.
299
^ I Were 70U ever present on any occasion when the constables made a scramble for the money on Sub-Inspector
the table? Yes ; on one or two occasions we broke up a crowd and took the money away. Potter.
1 1 qo?' to became of tlle money afterwards ? I presume it is in the office yet. 16No^l891
if , gqq -Jlf8 that a legal Proceeding ? Wel1. strictly speaking, I do not think it would be so considered.
11322. When you take other people's money in that way it should be followed by a prosecution? We
ettlt t!lat wa;y, for them to come and claim it if they felt disposed, but they never did.
113-3. Tou did that several times ? Once it was done to my knowledge. We went in there, and, legal
or not, wecleared them out and swept the table.
11324. If it has been said that the constables put the money into their own pockets and kept it ;— would
that be true ? I cannot say, but I should not think so.
11325. While you were on duty down there did you ever receive a present of any kind from a Chinese
merchant or anyone else ? No.
11326. No tea, tobacco, or cigars, or anything of that kind ? I remember one occasion— I was living in
Lower Jb ort-street at the time— when I came home my wife told me that someone had brought round a
chest ot tea— I thmk it was about the time of the Chinese New Tear— and she refused to take it in ;
and once, when I was at Eedfern, a chest of tea was brought to my house and it was refused. In that
case I was sorry that there was not someone with the man who could have spoken English, because I
believe it was offered with the best of motives. It was just after a number of Chinese had been burnt
out there, and Mr. Quong Tart was authorised by the Government to disburse a sum of money amongst
them. As I say, I think the offer on that occasion was made with the best of motives, and I would have
been glad to have tempered my refusal with an explanation.
11327. From your experience of Lower G-eorge- street did it ever occur to you that the Chinese, associated
together as they are down there in large numbers and carrying on a system of gambling, had a demoralising
effect upon the district generally ? Well, I should say it must have a demoralising effect upon the young
men who go to those places and have nothing in their minds but the profits of gambling.
11328. Do you think it has had a deteriorating effect upon the value of property there, for the purposes
of business ? Probably so ; of course it would not affect the owners of houses occupied by the Chinese.
11329. But you think it may have affected the European shopkeepers there ? No doubt many of them
have felt the inconvenience of being flanked on either side by Chinese shops.
11330. Have you ever heard of European women being assaulted or molested while walking up and down
Lower G-eorge-street ? I cannot call to mind anything of the kind.
11331. Tou heard of no complaints to that effect? I do not think so.
11332. Were you ever called in to quell disturbances among the Chinese — riots', or fights, or anything of
that kind ? On one or two occasions they had quarrels among themselves. On one Sunday morning a
Chinaman was seriously injured by some of his countrymen. He was supposed to have been an informer
for the police, but that was quite incorrect.
11333. They punished him under that impression ? Tes.
11331. Did you find many women among the Chinese in Lower George-street, while you were there?
We used to find some in Hanson's Buildings on the west side of George-street, but we cleared them out
as soon' as possible. There were others married to Chinamen, and some who had been living with China-
men a long time, and claimed to be married — possibly they were.
11335. Do these women who live with the Chinese ever bring up the men for assaulting them ? Never ;
on the contrary they are, as a rule, I believe, most kind to their wives.
11336. Were there any raids made on any of the Chinese gambling-houses in Lower George-street,
while you were there ? No.
11337. We understand that great difficulties surround the police in making raids there ? There are great
difficulties. Having got a warrant to enter a place, the difficulty is to effect an entrance, so as to catch
them in the act. They have their places barricaded — barriers here, and partitions there ; and then we
have to contend against the spies employed by the Chinese and the white people who go there, who are the
first to give information of the police coming.
11338. Have you considered a way of overcoming those difficulties by legislative enactment ; — do you think
they should be prevented from putting up barricades and locking their doors, and so forth ? I do not
know. I think we should look at it in the light of how such a law would apply to ourselves. Would it not
be interfering with personal liberty, for instance ?
11339. Doubtless. But knowing that these places carried on for an unlawful purpose, could we not make
special regulations to deal with them apart from the general community ? Perhaps ; I may say that I '
have never gone in for games of chance, and have no sympathy with gambling in any shape or form. If
a special law were made to stamp it out, I believe it would be a good thing.
11340. Mr. Quong Tart.] I think the first time I met you, Mr. Potter, was in connection with a case of
false imprisonment ? Tes.
11341. Tou regard the gambling among a certain class of the Chinese as the principal objection to them ?
Tes.
11342. What steps would you adopt to put down the evil? I hardly know what to suggest, unless it is
to give the police power to enter without a warrant any place where gambling is carried on, whether it be
Chinese or European, and arrest the players then and there.
11343. Do you know anything about pak-ah-pu ? Tes ; I know the game.
11344. Do you know what the chances are for the ticket-buyer in connection with that game ? Of course
the chance is all in favour of the bank. If there were four bowls, three would be put on one side, that is
for the good of the bank, and only one left from which the winnings could be drawn.
11345. Do you know any of the Chinese informers now ? No ; when I was at Waterloo I knew Long
Pen, who gave the information about the opium.
11346. What do you think of his character ? Well, his evidence was very good at that time. But the
Chinese out there said he was not a reliable man — that was what they seemed to think.
11347. What was his occupation at that time, do you know ? No ; 1 cannot say what he did for a living.
11348. Do you know if he is an opium-smoker ? He is an old man, and very thin ; he may have been an
opium-smoker.
11349. Is he a married man ? I believe so. He had a woman living with him. I am now speaking
about two years ago.
11350. Do you know if he has a, wife in Sydney now? I do not. 11351.
300 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
S"br "tter0* "T 1135]L- Have y°u ever kn°wn tne Chinese merchants in Lower G-eorge-street to encourage gambling ? I
^^^ never saw anything there which would lead me to believe that the Chinese merchants were gamblers.
16 Nov , 1891 H352. Do you think the Chinese informers are animated by a desire to do good for the community, or
' to benefit themselves ? Well, I think all informers only try to benefit themselves. Very few will do it
for the mere sake of enforcing the law even among the Europeans.
11353. For what class of offences have you found the Chinese generally proceeded against in your
experience ? I have known Chinese arrested for indecent assault, but they are not great offenders against
the law.
11354. President.'] The offence you have named you do not look upon as a standard offence of the
Chinese ? Not at all.
11355. Tou do not regard them as special offenders in any direction? No.
11356. As a matter of fact you regard them generally as a law-abiding people? Yes; I have found
them a very law-abiding people.
11357. And save in the matter of gambling you, as a member of the police force, have no complaint to
make against them ? No ; they are not a danger to the community in the way of offences against the
public in any shape. In Redfern and Waterloo I must certainly say I have received very great assistance
from many of the Chinese shop-keepers who have nothing to do with gambling, by acting as interpreters,
giving me advice, and telling me possibly where something should be done.
[The witness withdrew.]
17Nov.,1891.
TUESDAY, 17 NOVEMBER, 1891.
|Sres*nt:—
The Mayor op Sydney (Me. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Phesident.
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QTJONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. Octavius Charles Beale called in and examined : —
Mr. 11358. President.'] What is your occupation, Mr. Beale ? lama merchant and importer of pianos and
O. 0. Beale sewing-machines.
11359. You are the owner of property situated in Lower George-street ? I am the part owner of some
property in Lower George-street.
11360. You are interested in property situated in Lower George-street as owner of a moiety? Yes.
11361. What does that consist of? It did consist, when I purchased it, of several old shops.
11362. How many shops are there on the land ? There are now eight shops and four warehouses.
11363. Did you build the shops and warehouses ? Four of the shops were there when I bought the
property, four I have built since, and also the four warehouses.
1136-k Then, of the entire number of shops, four are new? Yes, comparatively new.
11365. Whom were the four old shops tenanted by before you bought them ? Perhaps it would complete
the point if I told you that there were seven when I bought them, and that I pulled down three.
11366. Then the remaining four were tenanted by whom ? By Chinese.
11367. Chinese merchants ? No ; by Chinese of a very low type.
11368. What business did these carry on ? I cannot tell you, but they were Chinese who kept their
houses in a very disorderly state.
11369. Did you send them away ? Yes.
11370. Did you do up the houses then ? Yes; I pulled down three of the old houses (all seven were
occupied), and renovated the four remaining ones, which were comparatively new.
11371. To whom did you let the houses that were renovated? Perhaps I may tell you that my idea was
to get rid of Chinese tenancy altogether, no matter of what character, so that I pulled down the three
older buildings and rebuilt them, and renovated the other four with the object of letting them to ordinary
European tenants, such as occupy the general run of shops in Lower George-street, calculating that by
doing so I should raise the value of the whole of the property. I had several opportunities of letting
them to Chinese tenants but refused, feeling satisfied that I should be able to get European tenants for
them. The consequence was, however, that whilst my own shops remained empty the Chinese who had
previously occupied them, instead of leaving the neighbourhood altogether, as I had hoped they would,
simply moved a little further up the street, taking shops that had not previously been occupied by
Chinese at all.
11372. They moved in a southerly direction, I understand? Yes ; they moved further along the street,
thus unfortunately extending the Chinese locality
11373. That is the point you wish to make ? Yes, it is. My four shops remained empty for a lengthened
period ; I cannot say how long, but for many months.
11374. All that time you were striving to get European tenants ? Yes ; we made every effort that we
could think of.
11375. And whilst they were empty you rejected Chinese tenants ? Yes ; a great many waited upon me
in reference to the houses, but I refused to have anything to do with them.
11376. What rent were you asking from Europeans at that time ? We were asking £5 a week for each
house.
11377. Then eventually, after an effort extending over many months, you failed to let the .shops to
Europeans ? Yes.
1137s. And then when you failed to let them to anyone else the Chinese offered to take them ? Yes ;
they had indeed offered all along.
11379. And up to that time you had refused them ? Yes.
113S0. Then you were driven to extremity ; — your property was unproductive, and you decided to let the
property to the Chinese ? Yes.
11381. Now, I want to know what rent you got from the Chinese ; — did you get a higher rental from
them than you had been asking from Europeans ? Yes ; I got £6 10s. from them.
11382.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 301
11382. So that you got 30s. a week more from the Chinese than you would have got from Europeans? Yes. Mr-
11383. But as a matter of fact, the Europeans did not come forward and offer any rent at all? No; °- c- Beale-
unfortunately they did not. iTtT^^isoi
11384. So that it was not a question of competition between European and Chinese tenants ? ISTo ; not °T"
at all.
11385. "What rent do you get now for the shops ? Prom £3 10s. to £4 10s. a week.
11386. And the difference in the rental of the various places is accounted for by the difference in the
accommodation afforded by them ? Tes ; by the difference in the frontages.
11387. "Well then, as a matter of fact, since you have let your shops to the Chinese, the rentals have been
reduced? Tes.
11388. Now, how was that reduction brought about ? By lapse of time only.
11389. "Was it brought about by reason of the Chinese leaving the houses, and refusing to pay the £6 10s.
a week rent ? They did not refuse to pay the rent, but they left the shops.
11390. Therefore the presumption is that they could not afford to pay the rents you were asking, or that
they got cheaper houses somewhere else ? I believe the fact was that they could not pay the rent.
11391. Then the consequence was that you were compelled to reduce your rents to less than you were
prepared to let your houses for to Europeans when first they were built ? Tes.
11392. What interval elapsed between the completion of the buildings and your letting them at from
£3 10s. to £4 10s. a week ? I cannot say exactly, but I should think about three years.
11393. So that in three years your rentals fell off about 30 per cent ? Tes, really more than that, because
some shops were and are unlet.
11394. What purpose did the Chinese occupy your premises for? Chiefly as boarding-houses and
restaurants, and a clause was put in the leases of four of the shops that were taken by one Chinaman to
prevent him carrying on illegal practices of any kind. Of course our only method of insuring that illegal
practices shall not be carried on is to insert such a clause, saying that interference by the police would
entail the vitiation of the lease.
11395. That is an extraordinary clause to put in a lease ; — why did you put it in these leases ? Because
we thought that the houses might be used as gambling-houses.
11396. And you provided that anything on the part of the tenants giving rise to police interference should
entail the cancellation of the leases ? Quite so.
11397. Did you find out that the Chinese were using these houses as gambling-houses ? No.
11398. Did you visit the houses yourself to get the rents ? No ; never. Hardie and Gorman are the
agents, and I leave the business in connection with the houses entirely to them.
11399. Tou were never brought in contact with the tenants ? No ; they came to see me sometimes, but
I always sent them on to the agents.
11400. I understand that you wished to be called as a witness before the Commission; — was that from
something that you had heard ? Mr. Playf air told me that my name had been mentioned before the
Commission, and suggested that it would be as well if I offered to come and give evidence.
11401. Tou heard nothing further ? Nothing further.
11402. "With regard to the property owners in Lower G-eorge-street I may tell you that the general
allegation is that you prefer the Chinese to the Europeans as tenants because you get higher rentals from
the Chinese and also bonuses for giving preference to them ? Do you mean that that was alleged of me
personally, or of the owners of property in Lower G-eorge-street generally.
11403. It has been stated of the owners generally — did you ever get a bonus ? No.
11404. Did Messrs. Hardie and Gorman ? Oh, I am certain that they did not.
11405. Then it is not your desire to let the houses to Chinese in preference to Europeans ? If I under-
stand, you mean that I would rather take less rent from a European.
11406. I did not put the question quite in that way ; — -I stated that it was not true that you would rent
your properties to Chinese at a somewhat higher rental in preference to Europeans ? No, it is not true.
11407. And that is proved by the statements that you made at the beginning of your evidence to the effect
that you were at first prepared to take £5 from Europeans, and that although you were offered a higher
rental from the Chinese you preferred to keep your shops vacant for several months in the hope of getting
European tenants ? That is so.
11408. And that when you did get an increased rental from the Chinese that rental fell away very soon
from that increased rental to a much lower rental than you were previously asking from Europeans ?
Tes.
11409. The rentals of your houses have on the average fallen from £4 10s. to £3 10s. a week ? Tes, more
than that.
11410. The difference is practically from £4 10s. to £3 a week ? Tes.
11411. And you say that you have never been even offered a bonus by Chinese desiring to rent your
houses ? Quite so ; and so far as I have been able to observe, it is quite untrue that any bonuses have
been offered to landlords by the Chinese, or that anybody would prefer Chinese to European tenants. I
may say, however, that I am not further informed than in relation to one or two large landowners.
11412. Mr. &awthorne.~\ What is your preference for European tenants ? I presume that it is a matter
of racial prejudice. It would certainly be regarded as a disadvantage by the general public that there
should be Chinese there at all.
11413. Butdoyouasa landlord prefer European to Chinese tenants, because the Europeans keep the
jjremises in better repair than the Chinese ? No; the Chinese keep the houses very cleanly. I have
never been in the shops since the Chinese first inhabited them, but I have seen them from the back.
11414. Then, as far as the question of cleanliness is concerned, you would prefer Chinese to Europeans ?
No ; I should prefer Europeans under any circumstances whatever.
11415. But as a landlord you have not found the Chinese more dirty than the general run of Europeans ?
No. If anything, we have found them more cleanly.
11416. So that any objection you had to them was more racial than sanitary ? It would proceed from
racial prejudice I think. I may say that no request was ever but once preferred by the police, and that
was in connection with the tenants next door. The police desired that we should restore the fence between
my property and the next door place, which is a public-house, because of an unseemly row that had taken
place. The fence was not ours, however, and there are no Chinese next door.
11417.
3"2 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
rMR 11417. How long did the houses remain empty after you had rebuilt them and had decided that you would
_ ' A e e' no longer let them to Chinese tenants? About six or eight months.
17 Not 1891 H-^IN. ^as '* tnen tnat vou allowed competition for them to be general, without restricting it to Euro-
' peans ? Do you mean at the end of the six or eight months ?
1 1 419. Yes, you were compelled at the end of that time to accept any tenants, were you not ? "We were
compelled then to accept any orderly tenant. We took every precaution however to get orderly tenants,
and I think events have proved that we succeeded.
11420. While the houses were empty had you any applications from the Chinese ? Oh, yes ; many.
11421. So that you, as landlord, or your agents, whilst getting frequent applications, refused to let the
houses to Chinese ? Tes ; both of us did so.
11422. And, as a landlord, you suffered pecuniary loss through not allowing these houses to be let to the
Chinese ? Tes ; very severe loss.
11423. Are the houses occupied now by Chinese or Europeans? There are four warehouses occupied
now by Europeans, but they are not fronting Lower G-eorge-street.
11424. I am referring to the houses fronting Lower George-street ? There are five occupied by Chinese,
and three vacant.
11425. And do you find property generally bad letting down in that part of the city, by reason of the
presence of so many Chinamen ? There are more than two sides to that question. The frontage is
affected but not the property at the back.
11426. There is no difficulty in letting the warehouses ? No.
11427. Mr. Abigail.'] Is not the reason for that that in the front street general business is carried on, and
in the back only storage ? Yes ; I have just let a large warehouse to Messrs. Hoffnung & Co. at £700
a year.
11428. Mr. Hawthorne.] What are the warehouses occupied as ? They are occupied for general storage
purposes. There is a boot factory at the back, and Messrs. Caird and Maxwell have their stores there.
The Chinese question does not affect the back.
11429. What is your opinion, as an owner of property, as to the falling, off in business at that part of the
city during recent years. From what we have heard, there has been very little business done down there
recently in comparison to what was done a few years ago ? I do not think that there has been a falling
off in business in the Lower George-street end of the city. As a matter of fact, there was no trade there
four years ago.
11430. Do you think that the retail business in Lower George-street is as good now as it was three /Or
four years ago ? Oh, yes ; I should think so. I should think it is rather better.
11431. If it has been alleged before the Commission that business had fallen off in Lower George-street
owing to the existence down there of so many Chinese gambling-houses ; — would that, in your opinion as a
landlord, be true ? No ; because there are many fewer Chinese down there than there were formerly.
11432. Then, in your opinion, on that account property ought to be more valuable down there now than
it was formerly ? Well, I can only speak from personal experience of the value of property on one side
of the street, but I should certainly think that property ought to be more valuable down there now than it
was two, three, or four years ago.
11433. And you think that business is as good as it was three or four years ago ? I think it is better. I
should say so from what I have seen.
11431. Then how is it that rents have come down ? Purely by the residence of the Chinese. We cannot
get the same class of tenants as we did formerly, but that is not my objection to the Chinese, because I
purchased the land with the intention of building large warehouses on it, and the people to whom I should
let them would not object to the presence of the Chinese.
11435. Mr. Abigail.] If the provisions of your leases had been carried out the tenants would have been
turned out if the police had interfered with them ? Yes ; but the police never did interfere with them.
11430. President!] Not as far as you are aware ? No ; and I think that I should have known of it.
11437. Mr. Abigail.] Is there any gambling carried on there ? Oh, yes ; one may be sure that there is.
Indeed, whether they were occupied by Chinese or Europeans there would in all probability be gambling
carried on there. We only regard those shops as temporary premises, and I suggested to the agents that
I would rather take £3 a week from the sort of European dealers that there are now at that end of the
city than £4 from the Chinese, in order to get a better class of tenants, but Hardie and Gorman said that
that would only be a way of getting out of the frying-pan into the fire — that we should get a worse class
of tenants than the Chinamen. We might get low tobacconists, who would probably do a much larger
gambling business than they do in the fan-tan shops themselves.
1 1438. Your opinion is that Lower George-Btreet is not a good part of the city for retail business ? No ;
I do not think it is.
11439. Your opinion is then that the Chinese congregating there tends to send respectable people away
and lower the class of business done ? Undoubtedly it does. When first I bought the property I asked
•several of the property owners if they would join me in an attempt to turn out all the Chinese of the
clasa that we have been speaking of from that part of the town, I am not referring to the respectable
Chinese merchants, but of the people who keep shops that may be gambling-houses or anything else, but
I could not get any response from them.
11440. President.] Just answer me this question: — Take the block of property north of Bridge-street; —
do you mean to contend that if all the Chinese were banished from there it would be as valuable for shop-
keeping purposes as the block south of Bridge-street ? No, it would not. That is exactly my opinion.
11441. And supposing also that the land-owners bundled the whole of the tenants out of that part of
the town would it not increase the value of the property because they could use it for mercantile pur-
poses ? I do not think so.
11442. I thought your opinion was that the removal of the Chinese would improve the value of the
property in that part of the town ? Yes, but not by ejecting both whites and Chinese ; — only by ejecting
the Chinese.
11443. Then if you ejected the Chinese only your land would have a much greater value now than when
you bought it ? Well, it would have a greater value than it had two years ago.
11444. But surely it would have a greater value than when you bought it ? I do not know that. It
was rather a " booming time " when I bought three years ago.
11445.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MnTOTES OE EVIDENCE. 303
17 Nov., 1891.
11445. Bnt at all events you acknowledge that the block of shops north of Bridge-street would not be as Mr.
good for ordinary business purposes as the block south of Bridge-street ? Quite so; though I think the °- °- Beale-
block south has depreciated in value. — -
11446. Mr. Abigail.] Still it is your opinion that the presence of Chinese in the neighbourhood means
decreasing the value of property ? Yes.
11447. And there are fewer Chinese down there now ? I believe there are.
11448. Mr.M'Killop.] Are the Chinese down there of a better class than those who lived there formerly ?
That would be impossible for me to say.
11449. Mr. Quong Tart.'] What were the names of the Chinese who came to ask you to let your houses
to them ? Ah Kum, a Chinese cabinet-maker, was one. We told him that we required references, and
he referred us to Messrs. Hoffnung & Co., and was very well spoken of by them.
11450. Was it for himself that he wanted to rent the shops ? Yes, for himself and his friends.
11451. Of course you are aware of the complaints made by the tradesmen and others at the Lower
George-street end of the town about Chinese gambling. I suppose you consider that their gambling
habits are the most serious objection to the Chinese ? Yes, quite so.
11452. If they carried on legitimate business like merchants you would not mind them then ? Oh, I
would take a much lower rent from an assured person than from one of whom I had any doubts.
11453. You do not want to have your name as a landlord mixed up with anything like Chinese gambling
— your good name is worth more to you than the few pounds a week that you get from these shops in
Lower G-eorge-street ? Well, I do not know that considerations of that kind exactly have affected my
action in the matter.
11454. At all events you would like to be assured ? It will make the thing particularly clear when I
explain that we never desired the Chinese as anything but temporary tenants.
11455. Tenants from week to week or month to month ? They are weekly tenants. We accepted them
on such terms that any time when we desire to build we shall be able to displace them.
11456. You never had any application from large merchants ? No.
11457. Do you own any other property beside this in George-street? Yes.
11458. Is it letting well ? Yes. I only own George-street property.
11459. What would you suggest as the best way of putting a stop to the Chinese gambling business ;
you have a special clause in your lease, you say ? Yes ; if the police had to interfere with the tenants
we should immediately eject them.
11460. Is that the only course ? That is the only course open to me.
11461. Mr. Hawthorne.] If you had four or five Chinese shop-keepers on each side of your own premises
opposite the Town Hall would that affect their value ? Oh, there is no question about it.
11462. You think that if these Chinese shop-keepers came from Lower George-street to this part of the
street it would have the same depreciating effect on property that it has there ? I think it would. I
think it would be a perfect calamity.
11463. Do you think that business has increased in the city during the last few months ? I can hardly
say, but I should think that it has increased.
Mr. Edmund Lawless called and examined : —
11464. President.] What are you, Mr. Lawless ? A sub-inspector of Police. Sub-Inspector
11465. What district are you in charge of ? I am now in charge of the Bedfern district. Lawless.
11466. What are the boundaries of the Bedfern district ? The boundaries of Bedfern extend from ,- — — » \
Cleveland-street arid Do wling-street in a straight line to Gardener's Boad (I am speaking only of the 17 Nov., 1891.
district that I have control of — the Bedfern police district extends to the ocean). Then I go from
Gardener's road on the north side to a line where the canal is being cut.
11467. Generally speaking, your district includes most of the Chinese quarters in Waterloo ? Yes.
11468. And how long have you been in charge of that district ? Only about six months.
11469. And before that, where were you? I was at No. 2 station.
11470. Where is that ? Near Christ Church. I was assisting Inspector M'Kay.
11471. Mr. Hawthorne.] Since you went to that district have you had much to do with the Chinese ?
Not a great deal. I made one raid on them.
11472. One raid already ; — when did that take place ? On the 4th July last.
11473. And what was the effect of that raid — did you make any arrests ? Yes ; we arrested twenty-
seven of them.
11474. Mr. Abigail.] Were they all Chinese ? Yes ; all Chinese.
11475. Mr. Hawthorne.] Did you find any Europeans at all in the house when you made the raid? No,
I did not. Of course I can only speak from the information I got at the time, and I was told that the
Europeans had just cleared out before we made the raid.
11476. What were they playing at when you made the raid ? Fan-tan.
11477. Did there appear to be much money on the tables when you entered ? I think there was about
£4 or £5. •
11478. You obtained convictions against six of the gamblers, did you not ? Yes ; but through an inad-
vertency of the magistrate the three principal members, who were fined £30, were discharged. The
magistrate inadvertently sentenced them to six months imprisonment, or levy and distress, which
he is not entitled to do.
11479. An appeal was made to a higher court ? Yes ; and the result was as I have said — that the
principals got off.
11480. I think that the ruling of the Court was that they could not fine and sentence ? Not for six
months. They gave six months, and in consequence I had to refund all the money.
11481. You say you have made one raid since you were appointed to the Bedfern district ? Yes.
11482. What is your opinion with regard to these Chinese residents in your district. Are they a law-
abiding class of people or otherwise ? With the exception of their gambling propensities— and I think
they are all fond of gambling— they are a pretty quiet class, generally speaking.
11483. Do you think that the fear of the raid that you made upon them has altered their mode of living,
and caused them to give over playing fan-tan, or are they at it just as strongly and earnestly as ever ?
Just the same. " 11484.
17 Nov., 1891.
304 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sub-Inspector H484. I suppose that forty-eight hours after the conviction took place they would be reverting to the
same game again ? Tes ; so far as my information goes, though I did not see them playing again in
the same house.
11485. Then perhaps it has the effect of making them more cautious ? Tes ; they kept the door shut,
which previously they had left open.
11486. Oh, previously to your making the raid, they played fan-tan with the doors open? Tes.
11487. And now fan-tan is played with closed doors and the accompaniment of spies ? Tes ; I suppose so.
11488. Mr. Abigail.'] Is it your opinion that before you made that raid the Chinese knew that they were
breaking the law in playing the game ? Tes ; because I have made several raids in years back, and I
have always found that the moment they suspected we were coming there was an immediate rush away.
Some rushed through windows, others I have pulled down chimneys and from roofs, so that now I always
put men all round the building.
11489. How were you able to make the raid without observation ? I sent a man to see when there was
likely to be a large number there, and 1 had the men planted about, and at a given signal he let them in.
11490. How many men did you require to make this raid which turned out a success ? I had not many
men to spare — only about 8 or 9.
11491. And did you keep it a secret from them until you took them up to the Chinese quarter? With
the exception of two men whom I told beforehand, I kept it a secret up to an hour before I made the raid.
11492. Have you found that, as a rule, your men are capable of keeping a secret when they are likely to
engage in work of that nature ? Tes ; I have no reason to suspect otherwise, except in cases not very
material, when I have fancied that they have sometimes been a little incautious ; but not in serious cases.
I have thought sometimes that secrets might leak out through the clerks at the police courts.
11493. But you have noticed, when you have been going to make arrests, that information has been sup-
plied to the parties by somebody ? I could not say so.
11494. However it has struck you that they must have been informed ? My impression at the time was
that they must have got the information from their own people, who are always going into tbe police
office, and who, seeing me go in, have, perhaps, got suspicious.
11495. Are we to understand, then, that you have intended upon certain nights to make a raid, but that
you have found that it would not have been a success, and so you have had to postpone it to some further
date ? Tes ; I have made the raid afterwards. Of course it has only been a surmise, but I fancied that
as they have not been playing much, then they had got wind of it.
11496. But that might only be an accident ? Tes ; it might have been a mere accident.
11497. "What have you found with regard to the morality of the Chinese ; — have you found much
immorality as between men and women existing amongst the Chinese inRedfern and Alexandria ? I have
not had much opportunity of making a close personal investigation into the matter, but from information
in reference to persons arrested there, I find that about twenty of them were women in the habit of fre-
quenting the residences of the Chinese down there. I have the facts down on this paper.
11498. Oh, I see — the paper that you are going to read from now for the benefit of the Commission
gives the number of convictions of girls of European parentage in the habit of frequenting these Chinese
quarters ? Tes ; but I should add that since these returns were compiled, so I am informed, the place
has very much improved, and nothing of the kind has taken place during the last twelve months. These
girls got from one month to six months imprisonment for being vagrants. They were all found in the
Chinese quarters.
11499. Was that before your appointment to the district ? Tes ; some time before.
11500. And since your appointment you have had no convictions against girls of European parentage?
No ; none at all.
11501. What was the date of your last conviction previous to your entering upon your duties here ? The
date here recorded is the 5th January, 1889.
11502. And is that the last conviction that has taken place against young girls of European parentage for
visiting these Chinese quarters ? No ; that is not the last. I made a mistake. I took the wrong column.
The last was on the 23rd March, 1891.
11503. And what was the subject of the charge on that occasion ? The girl was charged, under the
Vagrant Act, with having no lawful visible means of support.
11504. But, as a matter of fact, she was apprehended for visiting the Chinese quarters for immoral pur-
poses ? Well, she was found there. She had been watched. The police watch these places very care-
fully, and do not take action against the women unless they find, from careful observation, that they are in
the habit of frequenting the Chinese quarters for the purpose of prostitution.
11505. Tour men do not take them in charge on the first occasion that they see them there ? No ; they
threaten them. They say, " Do not let me see you here again ; if I do I shall have to take you in charge,"
or something of that sort.
11506. But since you have been inspector there have you found it necessary to caution any of these girls
about visiting these Chinamen's places for immoral purposes ? No ; I have not. There was a girl locked
up for being there on the 14th February, but that was before I came to the district.
11507. And I suppose you visit the district almost daily ? Very nearly. Sometimes I go there twice a
day.
11508. But your duty as inspector necessitates your visiting the place once every day at least ? Tes ;
some time during the day.
11509. And your opinion, as inspector of the district, is that the conduct of the Chinese about there is
respectable ? I could not say that their habits are dirty.
11510. It is chiefly from a sanitary standpoint that you object to them, however ; — you'Could not say that
they were over clean ; have you ever drawn the attention of the Inspector of Nuisances to the fact ?
No ; I have not, but other parties have.
11511. And you think that on the whole the Chinese are not remarkable for the earnestness of their
efforts towards good sanitation ? Oh, they are very bad.
11512. But with the exception of their neglect in that respect you have nothing to complain of the
Chinese residents of Alexandria ? There are several respectable storekeepers and others amongst the
Chinese. Those I have to complain about are the low class of people.
11513. Those men are engaged chiefly in the gardens, are they not ? Tes ; they are gardeners and rag-
pickers,
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES 03? EVIDENCE. ■ 305
pickers, and I suppose there are between twenty and thirty who do nothing but gamble and assist in Sub-Inspector
keeping the gambling-dens. Lawless.
1}^1\^fr'n A**9aii:\ Can you give us any notice of about how many Chinese there are in that district i-h^^i
altogether ? The nearest approach I can get to accuracy is 375. '
11515 .Mr. Haivthorne.} Will you give us the divisions of those 375 in their respective trades ? There
a^f ^".S^deners. 14 rag-pickers, 113 hawkers— that is, those who go about hawking vegetables and
other things, though mostly vegetables. There are 2 cooks, and 1 man who makes fly-catchers, and also
a wood-turner. Then there are 52 cabinet-makers, 13 storekeepers, 1 doctor, 1 butcher, and 13 whom
we call gamblers. Then there are 14 who sell pak-ah-pu tickets, and are always to be found about the
make 37i'P C6S" ^ * °f t0UtS' I think when y0U COUnt those up y0U wiU find that thej
11516. And that embraces the whole of the Chinese residents in the district under your control ? Yes.
1 have been informed and I think it is correct, that during the last twelve months the number has been
reduced something like 75 per cent.
11517. Mr. Abigail} Do you know what part they have gone to ? No ; I have been informed that they
have gone back to their own country, but that I know nothing about.
11518. Mr. Hawthorne.'} Can you not give us any reason for this startling migration ? Well, I have made
1^TioieSiVan^tT^77aidntllat most of them are gardeners, and that it does not pay them so well as it did.
11519. Mr McAittop.} Perhaps the contracts that they came out under have proved too stiff for them ?
Yes. Well, 1 do not know anything about that.
11520. Mr. Hawthorne] How do you find that they compare with the general run of Europeans, as far
as the police are concerned ;— do they give you much trouble or annoyance ? No. I have had to arrest
a tew of them ; there was one occasion on which a Chinaman got three years for an indecent assault on
a little girl. b J
11521. But was that since you have been down there ? No.
11522. Tou have had no cases of indecent assaults on little girls ? No ; nor for young women prosti-
tuting themselves with the Chinamen.
11523. And you have had very little trouble with the Chinese, except as far as the gambling is concerned ?
No; very little. l .
11524. And indeed, compared with the Europeans, you find them a very law-abiding people ? Tes.
11525. Their only offence is the gambling ? Yes.
11526. Are there any European women living with them ? I believe that there are three European
women and one Chinese woman living with them.
11527. Is the Chinese woman living with one particular Chinaman ? Erom what I hear they are living
together as man and wife. They are quiet and orderly, and I have had .no occasion to interfere
with them.
1152S. The women you have referred to are not there for the ordinary purposes of prostitution? No ;
not so far as our information goes.
11529. The European women have Chinamen living with them? Yes; and thev are steady in
their habits.
11530. You were a long time connected with No. 2 division ;— were there not a good many Chinamen
living there ? Yes ; there were some thousands living in No. 2 division.
11531. Some thousands of Chinamen in the neighbourhood of Goulburn-street ? Well, I ought not to
say " some thousands," but there were certainly over 1,000.
11532. I suppose it is populated more thickly with Chinese than any other district ? Yes ; you might
call G-oulburn-street, Wexford-street, Eoster-street, and that end of Sussex-street, a Chinese quarter.
11533. And what was your opinion of them there ; — were they tolerably law-abiding people except for the
gambling ? Latterly they were, but originally they were not. The first raid I made was in Groulburn-
street, in 1877, and on that occasion we got twenty.
11534. Mr. Abigail.} Were they Europeans as well as Chinese ? Yes, Europeans and Chinese ; but on
that occasion I counted fifteen young girls in one place, and the oldest was not more than 18. I
prosecuted the owner of the place and he was fined £10 for gambling and subsequently indicted and
, sentenced to six months' imprisonment for keeping a brothel.
11535. When was the next raid made ? In 1880 ; and I caught thirty-five then.
11536. Europeans and Chinese ? Yes ; I got a good many Europeans, and amongst them several of the
Corporation men — some of the foremen employed by the Corporation. They were all gambling. Out of
the thirty-five there' were about twelve Chinese. The principals were fined £30, and the Europeans were
fined too.
11537. Then both of these raids were successful ? Yes.
11538. And what about the next raid ? Of the next raid I have no recollection. The books have been
displaced. But I know that I made two raids, and that we got Europeans in each of them. We found
a lot of money there too.
11539. On the table ? No ; on the persons of the gambling-house keepers.
11540. Did you ever see much money on the table ? Yes ; we found over £20 on the table on one
occasion.
11541. Have you ever known the police to scramble for the money? When we went into a gambling-
house for the purpose of making a raid there was invariably a scramble.
11542. Do you mean that the police scramble ? Oh, no ; not the police. I have always instructed the
men to keep the table intact as much as possible, so that I could get the money off the table ; but the
Chinamen themselves snatch everything up as soon as we get in.
11543. Those who run the table ? Yes.
11544. When you made these raids you endeavoured as far as possible to obtain all that was on the table ?
Yes.
11545. What is done with it ? It is all put down in a book — everything that is got ; and when the case
is tried the Magistrates invariably confiscate it. Then after that it is sent to the Superintendent's office,
and what becomes of it eventually I do not know.
11546. Mr. Hawthorne.} Did the Chinese ever try to get round you to make it easy for them by offering
you bribes or presents of any kind ? No, never. In fact I always thought that the Chinese looked with
suspicion on me when I went down the street.
272—2 Q 11547.
SOB CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sub-Inspector 11547. jffr. Abigail.} Did you ever hear of any constables in connection witli No. 2 station being offered
Lawless. abribo? No> never.
17^Nov^1891 11548- n°w lonS were vou attached to No. 2 station? Since 1866; but I have been a coustable
ov'' " since 1818.
11549. Then you have actually seen the commencement of the location of the Chinese in that district ?
Well, not quite.
11550. In 1866 there could not have been very many? No, there were not many; there was not a
fraction of what there is now.
11551. You say that in 1877 things were very bad in that quarter, as far as the young girls were concerned ?
Oh, very bad.
11552. And after that there were a number of young girls brought up, and sent to the Industrial School,
I suppose ? Tes ; I arrested fifteen of them myself. They averaged between 12 and 17 years of age. I
remember that some of them were too old for the Industrial School, and had to be discharged.
11553. Do you remember a Select Committee of Parliament sitting in connection with the question of
common lodging-houses, and making a report as to the frightful immoralities amongst the Chinese with
young girls ? I remember a Committee of Parliament sitting, but I do not remember any of the details of
the report.
11554. That was in 1876 ? Tes.
11555. Did it have any effect upon the action of the police, in making tliem give more attention to the
care and protection of young girls ? No ; the men were always told, as far as I can remember, that if
they ever found any young girls in those places they were to bring them out, and take them to their
parents, if they had any, and if they had not, or they could not find them, they were to bring them to the
station.
11556. Did you ever find any young girls in bed with the Chinese ? Only in that instance when I prose-
cuted the man for keeping a brothel, and the evidence in that case was very bad. I found the girl suffering
from the effects of opium, lying about the place half-naked. ,
11557. Then so far as the immorality with women is concerned the conduct of the Chinese is very much
better than it used to be ? Yes ; I have not found so many young girls with the Chinese as there used to
be ; but the women who have grown up with them, and are now 30 or 40 yeara of age, still go amongst
them.
11558. That is in Goulburn-street and Wexford-street ? Well, principally in Goulb urn- street. We got
two girls out of there, and the proprietor was sentenced to six months for keeping a brothel. In Wexford-
stroet they are principally common gambling-houses. The difficulty in prosecuting these people has
always been that you were never sure of finding the same parties there on the nextnight. Very frequently,
when we had made all our arrangements for a raid, we had not been able to find the same parties there,
but had found a totally different set of men. It would seem as though they sub-let the table night after
night for two or three hours. We had several warrants out, but we could not execute them for that
reason — we could not find the people against whom they were issued.
11559. Gambling is still carried on in Goulburn-street, Wexford-street, and Campbell-street, is it not ?
Well, it was up to the time I left that district.
11560. But there is not the same amount of immorality amongst the Chinese that there was at an earlier
period ? No, they having much improved on that score. I think they m ust have got frightened.
11561. Do they keep their premises clean down there, or are they dirty? Well, the houses are pretty
fair, but the huts at the lower end of Retreat-street are very bad. About Waterloo there are sixty or
seventy huts. One man; — a Chinaman called Sun Moon — has forty-four tenements, and Mrs. M'lllinney
has twenty, all of which are let out to Chinamen.
11562. Do they overcrowd in these tenements ? Well, I have not seen much overcrowding. Perhaps I
do not go there at the proper time. I have been told by the men that sometimes there are as many as four,
or five, or six in these places. They are just galvanized roofs with a fence round them, and all the rubbish
is thrown in front of the door.
11563. Did you read the report of the deputation that waited on the Colonial Secretary some months ago
and gave rise to this inquiry ; — they stated that the police were in the habit of receiving gold watches and
so on ? Yes ; I did, and I was very much amused. It struck me that the persons who imagined anything
of the kind must have been themselves guilty of something of that sort, because my large experience of
the police has led me to recognise them as very honest men. There may be some bad ones amongst them
but I have never yet come across any who would accept bribes.
11564. What is your total service ? Twenty-six years.
11565. And in that twenty-six years you have never heard of a policeman having being dismissed for
having accepted a bribe ? No ; I cannot remember such a case. It is possible that such a thing may
have happened, but I am not aware of it. There is one thing that would certainly tend to prevent that.
The police are promoted to various classes, and there is always a certain jealousy existing amongst them
as every one naturally looks anxiously for promotion. That would tend to prevent anything of this kind
because if one constable knew anything about another receiving a present the probability is that at the
first opportunity he would be glad to mention it so as to give himself a better chance.
11566. To make bribery effectual it would have to be general would it not, so that every man on a certain
beat would have to be bribed ? Tes. The first man might possibly be tempted to receive a bribe, but
the next man might say, " Oh, I will have nothing to do with it ! " and he would go to his sergeant and
explain what had happened to him.
11567. But you have never had any experience of such a thing? No, absolutely none.
11568. And as a superior officer you have had a .large number of police passing under you ? Yes ; a very
large number.
11569. And as a general rule what is their character? Well, I believe that as a general class their
character is quite irreproachable.
11570. You have found some who have had a failing in the drink line ? Yes.
11571. And that no doubt has led to dismissal more frequently than anything else ? Yes ; when you
come to think of the kind of people and the kind of temptation that the police have to deal with you will
think that they are very honest. Perhaps you read the other day that a young policeman locked a man
up with £200 in his pocket.
11572. ,
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. . 307
11572. So that when you read the report of the deputation you were very indignant ? Yes, very indignant, Sub-Inspector
because Mr. Eead is a very strict Superintendent, and the Inspector- General would show no man any Lawless.
mercy who would do anything of that kind. " ' * *
1157^ . From your experience can you make any suggestion for the better suppression of gambling amongst 17 Nov'' 1891"
the Chinese ? Yes ; I think so. In the first place my impression is that we ought to be able to arrest
at sight.
11574. Without the necessity of a warrant ? Yes ; they are committing an offence. We can arrest in
the street and it does seem hard that we cannot go into the house and arrest them when we see them
playing from outside.
11575. And you would make any gambling implements found in the gambling-house evidence against the
proprietors, I suppose ? Oh, certainly. That would be important evidence. Then I would compel them
to have decent habitations and contribute something to the revenue of the Colony.
11576. In fact they should be brought under the same sanitsrv laws as Europeans ? Yes ; there should
be a good lodging-house Act, allotting a certain space to each occupant, and of course the Chinese would
come under that, and would be obliged to have decent habitations.
11577. In reference to the huts at Waterloo, is it not parts of the duty of the Inspector of Nuisances
there to see that the Chinamen do not herd like pigs ? Yes ; it should be.
11578. I suppose they have an inspector of nuisances ? Yes.
11579. Who is the Mayor of Alexandria ? I do not know. I have only come there very recently, and I
do not remember the name, but will get it for you.
11580 In reference to G-oulburn-street, did you ever know of any assignation houses there ;— indeed you
must have done from what you have said ? Yes ; there were one or two houses where we used to go
frequently and catch young girls ; but since the raids, to which I have alluded, there are only women
ot a5 or 40 years of age to be found there— old, confirmed prostitutes, and we did not touch them.
11581. The Chinese behave well towards the women whom they take to live with them, do they not ?
Yes ; they give them plenty of money, and keep them well dressed ; and there is another thing : When
young prostitutes come out of gaol they seem to have no other resource but to go to the Chinamen,
for the larrikins only kick them about. They cook for the Chinamen, and keep their houses in order.
11582. Do you find the Chinese very drunken or riotous ? No ; they are very sober.
11583. Have you ever had to arrest any for drunkenness ? In one or two isolated cases ; but drunken-
ness is certainly not a very conspicuous vice with them.
11584. Do you think it is a good thing to have them located in one district, or would you prefer to have
them spread over a large area ? I think it would be a very good idea to have them located in one
district.
115S5. It would enable the police to supervise them better, you think ? Yes ; I think it would be an
excellent thing, although, I daresay, it would meet with a good deal of opposition from the people of the
neighbourhood in which it was proposed to locate them.
11586. Does the locating of a large number of Chinese in any district tend to lower that district, then ?
In my opinion it does.
11587. It deteriorates the district ? I think it detracts from the value of property in the district.
11588. And would interfere with business, excepting business of a very low character ? Yes ; I think so.
That is my impression.
11589. Do you know what profits the landlords make out of dens in Waterloo ; — I am referring to the
houses in Eetreat-street and the huts at the end of that street ? Yes ; I understand that they pay as
high as 20s. a week for a cottage, such as you would not give more than 12s. or 13s. for if it was situated
in any ordinary street of the town.
11590. Twenty shillings a week for such a cottage as you have described? Yes; from 15s. to 20s. a
week, and they are not worth anything like that, because you can get very much better places for less
rent elsewhere.
11591. You do not know what the person, who sublets them to the Chinamen, gives for them ? My
impression is that the person who leases the land from the Cooper family has put up those places. The
people who live in the huts pay Is. or 2s. a week each in rent.
11592. Now, with reference to the sanitary question ;— can you make any suggestion that would have
the effect of bringing the Chinese residents under a general or municipal law that would compel them to
keep their premises in a state of cleanliness ? My impression is that they should not be allowed under
any pretence whatever to live in these hives. They are very handy mechanics, and very ingenious men,
but they should not be allowed to erect such habitations as those for themselves. Whatever places they
live in should be detached. They should not be allowed to erect long sheds and partition them off into a
number of living rooms.
11593. Those places would be particularly dangerous to life, I suppose, in case of fire ? Oh, yes ; they
would go like touchwood. They consist of nothing but a few lathes (Hobart Town palings).
11594. So that, if a Common Lodging-house Bill were passed it could be made to reach them ? Yes ; a
good Common Lodging-house Bill would make a clean sweep of them, and that of course would have a
wonderful effect upon that phase of Chinese life, whilst a Bill enabling us to arrest at sight in cases of
gambling, would get over the most serious difficulty that we have to contend against on that score. It
would make it very much easier for the police if we could arrest forty or fifty men at sight.
11595. And if the magistrates had the power of inflicting imprisonment instead of merely imposing a fine,
that I suppose would have a salutary effect ? Oh, it would strengthen our hands very much.
11596. Is it your opinion that the presence of the Chinese in large numbers in parts of the city and
suburbs has affected Europeans to any large extent ? I think so ; I think that their presence has had a
very bad effect upon the lower order, and upon young people. I have frequently gone into lottery -places
in Goulburn-street, and turned out as many as twenty or thirty, young European lads ; but as that has
only been in the cases where they have been playing pak-ah-pu, all that we have been able to do has been
to turn them out and frighten them away. It is so difficult to get a conviction. Of course I understand
the game perfectly.
11597. Do you not think that if it were possible to frame a law, so as to enable you to send private
persons into these pak-ah-pu and fan-tan dens, who could give evidence in Court against the croupier and
banker, to the effect that they had actually seen them playing the game, it would facilitate prosecutions
against
308 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sub-Inspector against them ? Yes ; I think that it would ; but I must say that I should uot be ia favour of employing
Lawless, private persons to go into the houses for that purpose alone. They should be accompanied by at least
l-T^mi one P°^ce °3icer> otherwise it would give rise to a good deal of suspicion.
" 11598. But, in your opinion, if a private citizen who had a desire to suppress this evil was sent in to the
houses in company with a constable, it would facilitate prosecutions ? Yes, no doubt ; but as I say, the
very fact that we should have to arrest the banker and croupier afterwards would make that only a pre-
liminary step.
11599. I see. You now have to get out a warrant before you can arrest the principals ; but what I mean
is this : supposing the law was altered so as to enable you to dispense with the issuing of the warrant,
could you not then employ private citizens of whose integrity you were yourselves satisfied to go into the
houses, and watch the games played, and subsequently go into the witness-box, and give evidence against
the principals ? No ; I do not think that evidence would be enough.
11600. But if there were two of them ? Yes ; that might do.
11601. But still you would have to get out a warrant ? Yes ; I will give you an instance of the difficulty
of employing outsiders in the way you suggest : I made an arrangement with a man who is now a
Chinese interpreter up the country, to go into a house — a very bad place in Goulburn-street. We were
to meet at the house at a given time. I went there at the hour appointed, but he did not turn up. I
wondered how that was, and then after waiting a little time, wandered into the next house, and there, to
my astonishment, I found him presiding over a game of fan-tan. The fact of the matter was that he was
the jtroprietor of the house, in which I found him, and his only object in putting us on to the other place
was to get it shut up, in order that the business of his own place would be increased.
11602. That instance would naturally make you very suspicious in any future cases in which Chinamen
come to give you information about gambling ? Oh ; I would not have anything to do with them. I
should at once conclude that it was only in order to increase their own business.
11603. It has been stated by a Chinese witness that he frequently went to Inspector Mackay to make
complaints of this nature, and that they put him off from time to time at the police station, and he had to
go to the Inspector- General about it ? Most likely. It is quite probable that he was one of the kind of
persons that I have been alluding to. I have frequently sent away such men who have come with com-
plaints to me.
11604. Mr. McKillop.] But was this Chinaman an apparently trustworthy man? Yes; apparently
respectable man.
11605. I believe that he used to belong to the Salvation Army, did he not ? No ; that was another man.
But I have seen him working a table before now.
11606. Mr. Quong Tart.] You were sub-inspector under Mr. Mackay ? Yes ; for eight years.
11607. And now you are in the "Waterloo district ? Yes ; I have the whole of Alexandria, Waterloo,
Darlington, and liedfern.
11608. You made a raid a little while ago ? Yes.
11609. In that raid did any Chinese give you assistance ? No ; I went down there, saw what was going
on, and told the men on duty there that I should have to make a raid.
11610. On what day of the week was it ? I think it was on Saturday night.
11611. I suppose your experience has led you to believe that Saturday is the worse night ? Well, there
are more men there on a Saturday night than on any other night, and I wished to get as many as I
could.
11612. Are there many lotteries carried on down there ? I have only seen one, though I have heard of
two, and I have not had an opportunity yet of starting any prosecutions though I intend to do so if
necessary.
11613. You say you understand how the game of pak-ah-pu is played ? Yes ; I understand it perfectly.
11614. I would like to hear your explanation. Here is a pak-ah-pu ticket ; kindly tell me in the first
place how many characters there are on it ? There are eighty characters on it — four twenties.
11615. Are they all alike or different ? All different. There are eighty different characters. My opinion
is that pak-ah-pu should not be classed as a lottery. It should be classed as a gambling-game. I go to a
fan-tan shop and I purchase a ticket for (say) sixpence.
11616. And who would sell it to you ? Some man in the shop who has a book, and he allows me to mark
the ticket with a pencil. I make a mark on ten out of the eighty characters — whichever I like. He
marks a copy of the ticket similarly, and puts his initials on it for the purpose of identification I think.
At all events ,he makes a mark upon it.
11617. What is the smallest number of marks you can purchase ? Sixpenny tickets are the cheapest I
have ever seen, and I have bought sixpenny ones myself.
11618. And what is the value of the highest prize you could get for a sixpenny ticket ? I was told that
if I managed to get ten marks out of a possible twenty, which constitutes the game, I should get £75.
11619. The highest prize you say is £75 ? Yes, about that.
11620. What is the lowest prize? I think that nothing under five counts.
11621. But how much would you get on that? Oh, I should think something like Is. 6d. They begin
with something very small, and then it doubles or trebles as it goes on, according to the increasing number
of marks you obtain. If you get six marks you might get Ss. or 7s. ; then if you get seven marks, you
might get £1. But then there is this to take into consideration, you only get a chance of marking ten
out of eighty, and eighty numbers can be transposed billions of times, so that they have an enormous
number of chances against you.
11622. You think that guessing what are the right numbers to mark is something like looking for a
needle in a haystack ? Just so. Therefore the bankers have every chance against you.
11623. How do they draw the bank — what kind of place do they draw it in ? It is generally a kind of
ofiice, barred in with wooden bars, like a guard-house or a cell, and there are three men there, two
marking the numbers and one watching the game. They have a number of knives on the table, or some-
times a revolver or two.
11624. What for ? Oh, I think it is mere display.
11625. How many engage in the game ? Well, when the bank is going to be drawn they have four basins,
and one of- the men takes up eighty tickets each corresponding to one character on the ticket that
you have purchased, and rolls it up. There are four basins, and he puts two tickets into each, until he
has
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 309'
lias disposed of thorn all. There are then twenty tickets in each basin ; after that ho takes up four figures, SUb-Inspectar
blocks of wood generally, and folds thorn up in paper, and puts one in each basin. He then takes four La^les8-
corresponding numbers and puts them into a hat or jar, subsequently holding it up and allowing anyone ,,T7^i
there to put his hand in and draw one out. When the number is taken out of the hat it is read, and the 17 JNoT" 1891-
basin corresponding to it makes the game. The other basins are discarded. The banker then draws the
tickets out ot the basin selected, and pastes them on a board so that the number of characters on your
ticket corresponding with them determines your chance.
11626-. Have you had any prosecutions agaiust the lottery-banks ? Well, Detective Keatinge had a case
'"i6 e a?°' but rt sll01uld1 haTe been brought under the Lotteries Act instead of the Gaming Act.
11W7. lnen you have to see the bank drawn ? Tes ; just as with regard to sweeps, unless I could prove
that a race had been actually run there would be no offence at all
11628 Of course there is a ticket-seller, and you have to buy the ticket from him ? Tes ; we can proceed
against him as an accessory.
1L629. MrMoKillop-] But you can harass them ? Only by going in day after day and frightening them
whenever they are about to play. '
11630. Mr. Quonff Tart J But surely it would bo possible to enact some law that would enable you -to get
■at them ? les ; I think so. What we want is a law that would make it easier to catch these people,
and then when they are caught, and the case against them proved, to punish them severely. That would
do some good.
11631. If you buy a ticket from a man, and by that means trace the principals, it seems to me that you
have all the evidence that you require? Well, the man who sells the ticket is an agent, and he would
come under another law.
11632. Can you make any suggestions as to how, in your opinion, the law should be altered in order to
facilitate your operations ? I think that the fact that any one has in his possession a ticket of this kind
should be sufficient evidence against him to secure a conviction. It is a peculiar ticket— there can be no
mistake about it — and they are very openly sold.
11633. Do you ever see any young children going into those places to buy the tickets? Yes; I have
turned them out 9 years of age— children who have been sent there by their mothers to buy tickets. That
was in Campbell-street.
11634. Which is the worse evil, fan-tan or pak-ah-pu ; — which does the most harm to the European
population, do you think ? I should say that pak-ah-pu is the worse of the two.
11635. Why ;— because anyone can play ? Tes ; it is such an easy thing to go into a shop and buy a
ticket without being seen. Fan-tan must be played openly, with all the gamblers gathered round the
principals, but in pak-ah-pu you never know where the bank is drawn, and it may be a swindle from
beginning to end.
11636. Do you know of any syndicates running fan-tan places ? No ; I have not known that any of
them were as a matter of fact run by syndicates, but I have suspected it for a long time, and for this
v reason : When I have been going my rounds in Goulburn-street I have invariably seen one man — a little
dark man— dodging out of these places, and I have been told that he is one of a syndicate who run the
banks.
11637. Is he a little dark respectably-dressed man ? Tea; he is a little dark man, and speaks English
very well.
11638. Could you not give us his name? No; I should have to see him first. Eor years I have seen
him going in and out of these houses, but whenever I have been going to make a raid I have not been able
to find him.
11639. I suppose you know that there are some respectable Chinese in the city carrying on a legitimate
business ? Tes.
11640. And you know a Chinese loafer when you see one ? Tes.
11641. And that is the class that the public complain of ; — it was the doings of that class that led to the
appointment of this Eoyal Commission ? Tes ; the upper class of Chinese we have nothing to complain
of, and on the other hand the loafers, I suppose, would be objected to just as strongly in their own
country.-
11642. Tou could take a prostitute up for being found, for an immoral purpose, in a European house just
as well as for being found for an immoral purpose in a Chinese house ? " Tes ; if we found her in a
brothel. We should not interfere with a girl, however, if we found her in a respectable house, whether
it was a European or a Chinaman's house, as long as she was there on a visit, or something of that kind.
1 L643. I suppose you have found the Chinese gardeners hard working and industrious men, and you would
not compare them to the proprietors of Chinese gambling-houses ? No ; you could not compare them at
all. I speak of the gamblers as those who are living upon the gardeners, actually cheating them out of
their substance. And they do cheat. I have a coin in my possession at home that is made for the purpose
of cheating at fan-tan. If they are playing with a soft kind of person, as they turn over the counters after
having covered them with the cup, they will see where the biggest stake is, and if it is on the three, and
that is going to be the number of coins left, they will turn one over and make it show two edges, thus
making the number left four instead of three. That coin is made so that when looked at on one side it
shows one edge just as an ordinary coin, and when seen on the other it shows two edges and looks like
two coins.
11644. But if the bank were winning without using that coin they would let it alone, I suppose? Tes ;
they are very quick indeed. I believe that invariably they can tell how many coins are under the cup.
11645. Do many Europeans gamble with the Chinamen in Waterloo ? My men tell me that some do,
but I have never seen any.
11646. Do they gamble ou Sundays clown there ? I am told that they do, but I have not personally seen
them.
11647. What is the name of the street in which those tenements that you were referring to are situated ?
Part of them are in Retreat-street, and the rest in a paddock.
11648. Tou would like to see a law enacted that would apply to everybody — that would prevent too many
Chinese living in a house, or too many Europeans either ? Oh, certainly ; we want a law that would
apply to all nationalities, and it would be a great assistance to us.
11649.
310 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sub-Ins]ioctor 11619. Have you found any other nationalities in the city who have the same characteristic of over-
Lawless, crowding that tho Chinese have ? In Kedfern there are some people called Assyrians, who live very many
lTlT^^soi toR^her »n ono nouse I but that is a house, not a hut.
0T-' ' 11650. But it is only in Waterloo that the Chinese live in huts ? Yes, excepting in very large establish-
ments, like Bobertson's coach factory. At the same time I have seen thirty or forty Chinamen in a
house that would not accommodate more than four or five Europeans.
11651. With regard to women, you have just said that there arc some women of the lower order living
amongst the Chinese — that, however, I understand you to say is only as a last resource ? Yes, in all
probability, having no other place to go to when they come out of gaol, they would go to the Chinamen and
try and live at peace as far as possible.
11052. How many Chinese informers were thoro to your knowledge in No. 2 district at the time you were
assisting Inspector Mackay ? I cannot say. There might have been three or four. People have told me
about them. Two Chinamen sent memorandums to the inspector about the gambling, but after the
experience we had had we did not take action upon them.
11653. Do you remember Eobert Lee Kum? 1 do not remember the name. On the occasion to which I
refer we did not want the information. We had enough evidence to prosecute upon, and we found that
these people were only trying to get money out of it. They asked what kind of reward they were to
receive, and that exposed their object at once.
11654. Tou have found that that class of persons generally travel from place to place ? Yes.
11655. Now that you are in charge of the Waterloo district you do not want any Chinese informers to
help you ? No. If a person comes and presses an information upon me, that is, of course, a different
matter. I can do nothing but accept it and take him before a magistrate.
11656. Was there an increase or a decrease in the amount of gambling carried on in No. 2 district during
the time you were there ? I think that the gambling was slightly on the decrease before I left. They
had slightly overdone the thing I fancy, and as they can't all get a living out of it the number was
decreasing.
11657. With regard to the gambling the public complain that the police walk up and down the street in
front of the very places where it is being carried on, and take no notice of- it. Now, I see that there is
a good deal of difficulty about it ? Yes ; there is. In the first place the constable has to see that there
is gambling really being carried on, and then he has to report the result' of his investigations to his
superior officer. Then we have to lay an information and get out a warrant, but it is very difficult to
identify anybody, particularly a Chinaman, until you have seen him several times. It is a very difficult
thing to identify a dozen people whom you have never seen before.
11658. Then the law requires altering very much ? Yes; but as far as the charges of neglect of duty
that have been preferred against the police are concerned, we are pretty well used to all kinds of
calumny.
11659. Mr. Abigail has just suggested that you might get citizens to help you in bringing the gambling-
house proprietors to justice, but it strikes me that it would be a very hard thing to get reputable citizens to
help you in that kind of work, so that what you really want is an amended law ? Yes ; that is it. I
think that a very short Bill would do it. "VV e want a Common Lodging-house Bill, and a Bill to enable
us to arrest gamblers at sight.
11660. From what you have said I gather that you have found that the Chinese merchants and the hard-
working Chinamen are never in favour of gambling ? Well, I cannot say that, because it is upon the
hard-working people, particularly the Chinese gardeners, that these gambling-house keepers prey.
11661. But you have found that the really respectable merchants are not in favour of it ? Oh, no. As I
was saying, there is a syndicate of Chinamen running the gambling-houses.
11662. Did you ever speak to any of your superior officers about the difficulty of getting a conviction
under the law as it stands ? I have spoken to a magistrate on the question, and he has told me that he
would not convict without a warrant.
11663. You have done your best towards putting down this evil? Yes ; but we cannot run foul of people
illegally. If we did we should be liable to prosecution ourselves. We must get everything straight
according to the Act when we bring a case before a magistrate, or else he will not convict, and that is what
we try to do, but we are not always successful.
WEDNESDAY, 18 NOVEMBER, 1891.
$lr.es.mi: —
The Mayor of Sydney (Mb. Alderman MANNING, J. P.), President.
FEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbestdent.
BAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN STITABT HAWTHOBNE, Esq.
Mr. John Maguire called and examined : —
Sergeant 11664. President.} You are a member of the police force ? Yes — a sergeant of police, stationed at No.
Maguire. j. station, Lower George-street.
' -A-'"r^ 11665. How long have you been there ? Nearly eight years.
18 Nov., 1891. nege, Where were you stationed before that ? At No. 2 station, near the railway.
11667. How long were you there? Ten years and a half.
11668. During the seven years you have been stationed in Lower George-street the Chinese gambling has
increased considerably, has it not ? I do noMihink so.
11669. Do they not now occupy more shops on the front street than they used to in years gone by ? A
number of shops have been built there during that time, but there were houses on the ground before, and
they were pulled down.
11070. You have no hesitation in saying they have not increased? They have increased, I think, but
very little.
11671. Were you engaged in any of the raids that were made in Lower George-street during the past
seven years ? I was. 11672.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 311
11672. In how many ? I was engaged in all the raids that Mr. Atwill made. Sergeant
11673. How many raids were made during the last seven years ? I cannot tell you from memory. Maguire.
11674. Has there been one for every year that you have been down there ? I cannot tell you, but I /~^-*-' \
believe I was in every raid that was made since I went to the division. 18 Nov'» 189
11675. Have you had. complaints made to you specially by the shopkeepers of tho way that gambling is
carried on down there ? No, I have not had complaints made to' me personally, but they have complained.
Two or three years ago some of the coal-lumpers informed me that thev had arranged in their society to
inflict fines upon any of the Union men that they would find in these gambling-houses ; but I do not
know whether they carried it into effect or not.
11676. Have not the European shopkeepers complained to you ? Some have.
11677. Mr. McKillop.'} Who are those persons that complained to you ? Mr. Nock told me once that
the fact of so many Chinese being there would spoil the business of the Europeans.
11678. Mr. Abigail.'] Did Mr. Maguire, the photographer, ever complain to you ? If he did I have no
recollection of it.
11679. Of what nature were the complaints generally, as far as you remember? I know Mr. Nock told
me that m consequence of the Chinese occupying these places in George-street the business of the
Europeans was falling off. He told me his trade had fallen away.
11680. And he asked you, I suppose, to give special attention to suppressing the evil ;— did he ask you if
anything could be done ? I believe he did.
11681. What did you reply to that ? If my memory is clear, I said that if the law was simplified we could
deal with them easily enough.
11682. Then would you simplify the law so as to be able to deal with the Chinese gambling effectually ;
can you suggest any amendment of the present law to that end ? I can only go by the experience
we have had down there. On several occasions when raids were made the police had to resort to extreme
means of getting into the places. I will give you an illustration :— On one occasion Senior-constable
Adair, in company with myself and several other members of the police force, whose names I cannot call
to mind just now, under Mr. Atwill's instructions, went to one of these houses for the purpose of making
a raid. Mr. Atwill was at the front and we were at the back. We thought we should get into the
premises by way of a gate that was there ; but it was locked and barred on the inside. Constable Adair,
who had been a seafaring man in his time, got two ropes and attached hooks to the end, which were
thrown over the gate, and by this means he got over to the other side. The noise made in doing this had
given them a warning inside the house that something was wrong, and most of them got away before we
could succeed in catching them. If some law were made to simplify the work for the police, so that they
would not have to lose so much time it would be an easier matter to deal with the Chinese gambling-
houses down there.
11683. If they were forbidden to lock or bolt their doors do you mean ? No ; but if it were made an
offence for persons to be found on the premises, either in the front or back rooms.
11684. You would make it an offence for persons to be found on the premises where it was known to be
a gambling-house ? Yes, or a reputed gambling-house. If it were made an offence for persons to be
found there without lawful excuse it would simplify the law very much.
11685. In some of these places they erect strong partitions and barricades, do they not ? Yes.
11686. Would it not be of considerable assistance to you if they were prohibited from erecting these
obstructions ? Well, I do not think we could interfere with them to that extent — to say that they must
not put up a partition on their own premises.
11687. But are they not erected for the purpose of keeping the police and others out while gambling is
being carried on ? No doubt that is- the purpose they erect them for.
11688. In the course of your ordinary duty have you been in any of the gambling-houses down there and
seen them play fan-tan ? I have never been inside any of these places, except when I have been on
duty as I have described, and in uniform.
11689. You have seen persons going into these places I suppose very often — Europeans as well as
Chinese ? I have seen them in the shops numbers of times.
11690. And I suppose you know that the people who went there did not go for ordinary business
purposes ? That has been my impression, but I had no proof of it.
11691. Many of these Chinese shops do not carry on any legitimate business whatever ? Well, if they
do it must be very small, if we may judge by the stock appearing in the windows. It docs not appear to
increase or diminish very much, if at all.
11692. Is it not a fact that the stock you see in the windows is a mere " blind " in most cases ? I have
stated that the stock in these places is very small, that it does not seem to increase or diminish to any
extent, and in my opinion they do not carry on a legitimate business.
11693. Do you remember having read in the papers the account of the deputation that waited on the
Colonial Secretary in reference to the Chinese gambling in Lower George-street? I read the account.
11694. And you. remember that some members of that deputation made statements to the effect that the
police of No. 4 station particularly were in the habit of receiving bribes or presents, and so forth ? Yes,
I remember reading that.
11695. Now, during the seven years you have been on duty in that division do you remember any circum-
stance having occurred that would lead you to believe that there was any truth whatever in those state-
ments of bribery and corruption in connection with the police ? No, nothing of the kind.
11696. Have you never heard of a constable receiving a present of any kind whatever ? No; I never
heard of a policeman of any rank receiving a present from a Chinaman until I saw the account of that
deputation that waited on Sir Henry Parkes.
11697. When you saw that in print what impression did it make upon your mind ? I thought it was
untrue.
11698. Has it ever come under your notice that constables have evinced a desire to get on the Lower
George-street beat particularly? I never heard a constable express a wish for any particular beat. A
man has to work his beat for a certain number of hours, no matter where he is.
11699. Are you on friendly terms with the Chinese in Lower George-street ? Well, if a Chinaman meets
me, and says, " Good day" or " Good morning," I have the courtesy to reply to him, but my acquaintance
with them extends no further.
11701.
1
312 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sergeant 11700. Do you know Mr. Dawson ? I do.
Maguire. H70I. Have you had frequent conversations with him about the Chinese gambling? "Well, he has had
18\^^1891 fre(lueut conversation with me on the subject. When I say that T mean that he has forced his conversa-
1 ("'' ' tion on to me, and I have told him that the law is defective.
11702. I believe he made a complaint to you on one Sunday, and you went out together to find and arrest
a man — do you remember that ? I do, but that was not in connection with the Chinese question.
11703. But while you were out did not you have a conversation with him on the subject of the Anti-
Chinese Gambling League, and so forth ? Possibly I may have — I will not be sure.
11704. Did you have any conversation about the Chinese gambling-house keepers getting information
of the intentions of the police when a raid was contemplated ? I saw that in print.
11705. Did you have any conversation with Dawson about it ? No ; but Dawson told me that on one
occasion a Chinaman came to him and told him that a raid was to be made on a certain night.
11706. Did you say to him, in discussing this matter, that it looked very suspicious, and you wished you
knew who it was gave the information ? I never expressed those words.
11707. Tou never used those words, or words to that effect to Dawson ? Never.
11708. Did you ever say there must be police traitors in the camp ? Never, in my life. Dawson said so.
I do not like to say a harsh thing of him, but the fact is he is very seldom sober.
11709. Mr. Haivthome.] Tou would not trust the deep secrets of your mind to such a man? I would
not trust anything to him.
11710. Mr. Abigail.] And you state positively, that you were never offered, or received a bribe or present
from a Chinaman ? Never in my life, either directly or indirectly.
11711. Is there much immorality (as between the sexes) among the Chinese in Lower George-street ? I
can only speak from what I have observed, and I consider you find as much immorality among a similar
number of Europeans.
11712. There is nothing exceptional in the state of the Chinese, morally speaking, down there ? In my
opinion there is not. At any rate it has not come under my observation, and I have been on duty there
at all hours of the day and night.
11713. Have you had complaints made to you that the Chinese are particularly offensive to European
women passing up and down the street there — respectable women I refer to ? Never.
11714. Tou never heard of them being assaulted, or anything of that kind ? I never in my life heard of
anything of that kind taking place down there.
11715. Have you heard that the Chinese are in the habit of decoying young girls to their places in Lower
George-street, for immoral purposes ? Never ; I have known young girls to be found in a place in
Harrington-street, and they were taken before the Court and dealt with.
11716. Can you state in how ' many cases that has taken place ? I cannot say the number of cases. 1
know that when any case of the kind has come under the notice of the police they have always acted
upon it in the usual way.
11717. I suppose, Mr. Atwill, the inspector in charge of the division gives instructions to you, or the
other sergeant in command of the men, to inform them how they are to carry out their duties, does he
not ? When Mr. Atwill is absent the responsibility rests upon the non-commissioned officers under him.
If Mr. Atwill was away I would do my duty just the same as if he was in George-street with me.
11718. Have you received any special instructions to pay particular attention to the gambling-houses in
Lower George-street ? I got general instructions from Mr. Atwill, in dealing with these places, if I
could not get evidence against the places where we suspected gambling to be carried on, to turn the men
out whom we might find in the front part of the buildings.
11719. Did you do that often ? Tes, I did ; although 1 know that I was doing an illegal act at the time.
11720. Mr. Hawthorne.] Tou knew, as a matter of fact, that you had no more right to go into these
Chinese shops ostensibly carrying on a legitimate business, in the way you stated, than you would have to
turn the customers out of a European shop ? Tes ; I knew I was doing an illegal thing.
11721. But you thought they were carrying on an illegal business, and upon that belief you acted ?
Tes ; my impression was strong, but I could not prove it.
11722. Have you ever heard it charged against the police that they have connived at this gambling among
the Chinese, or that they have not exercised proper vigilance in suppressing it ? Well, I have seen
statements of that kind in the Press since the Anti-Chinese Gambling League started.
11723. Tou never heard of it before ? No, and I do not believe it, although I saw it in print ; and I
think I have as good a right to an opinion on the subject as other people down there.
11724. Do you know, as a matter of fact that the Chinamen congregating as they have done, in Lower
George-street, has had a deteriorating effect upon the whole district — given it a bad tone altogether ? I
have heard the members of the Anti-Chinese League call it " Chinatown," but I have not heard anybody
else say it. t
11725. Do you not think that the trade of the European business people down there has fallen off very
much ? I do not think so. The general stagnation in trade is injuring their business in my opinion.
11726. Tou think the falling off of business arises from other causes, and not from the presence of the
Chinese as they exist in that quarter ? Tes. There is not much money in circulation, and no flush of
trade in any direction.
11727. Mr. Hawthorne.] In your opinion, if the whole of the Chinese premises in Lower George-street
were vacated straightaway, so far as the Chinese are concerned, the business would still be as dull as it is
at present in that quarter ? I do not believe those places would be let again.
11728. A great number of the shops would remain untenanted ? Tes. I may say there are a great many
empty even now.
11729. And that state of things, you think, is owing, not to the fact of it being called Chinatown, from
the presence of Chinese in considerable numbers there, but rather to the stagnation of business generally
in the city ? That is my opinion.
11730. How many of these Chinese dens are there in Lower George-street ? Tou mean reputed gambling-
shops, I suppose ?
11731. Tes. Do you think there are twenty ? I should think there are about twenty ; there may be
more, or perhaps less.
11732. And of course there are some respectable Chinese merchants carrying on business down there
who
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 313
who have nothing whatever to do with Chinese gambling ? Tes. They are highly respectable people, I Sergeant
consider. Maguire.
11733. They carry on their business in a manner equal to the Europeans, I suppose? They carry on 1QCV"A"^1
an extensive business, importing and exporting. isJNov.,isaj.
11734. They give no trouble to the police in any way ? No.
11735. And with regard to the Chinese gamblers do they give the police anv trouble apart from their
gambling habits ? No. Sometimes they have their little quarrels, and the police occasionally are called
m, or they may come to the station and lay a complaint against each other, and the matter is settled at
the police coiirt.
11736. They are a sober race as a rule, are they not ? Tes. I do not think I ever saw three of them
locked up for being drunk during the whole of my experience.
11737. As regards sanitary arrangements, do they keep their places clean, and in every way to be desired?
bo tar as they have come under my observation they are as clean as other premises. Of course the
sanitary condition of the houses is in the department of the Inspector of Nuisances— the police do not
take control of that.
11738. But, as you visit these places, you can see whether they are dirty or otherwise ? I have not
particularly directed my attention to whether they were clean or otherwise.
11739. Have you noticed whether there is much opium-smoking down there ? No ; I do not think there
is much opium-smoking.
11740. You know the smell of opium ? Tes ; I know it well. I have seen them smoking opium some-
times ; but I do not think there is much opium-smoking in Lower George-street. I have only seen it
used in one house there.
11741. Now, going from there to Goulb urn- street, that is, in No. 2 division, how long were you there ?
I was there from 1873 to 18S3.
11742. In 1873 what, was the condition of that district, so far as the Chinese places were concerned?
Well, from my observation of that district at that time, I should say it was worse— much worse— than I
ever saw the other end of the town. The Chinese quarters there used to be frequented by young women.
It was in a pretty bad state at that time.
11743. During the years 1876 and 1877 were there not a number of young girls arrested under the
Industrial Schools Act in Goulburn-street ? I have no recollection of it ; it is a long time ago.
11744. But you know that a large number of young women used to visit the Chinese there ? Tes ; and
if we found they had no other means of support we would arrest them and charge them under the
Vagrant Act.
11745. At that time, was gambling carried on in Goulburn, Wexford, and Campbell Streets to a very
large extent ? A number of those who used to go out hawking during the day would live together and
play fan-tan at night.
11746. Did Europeans visit them ? I never saw many there.
11747. Have you ever heard of anything occurring in the way of the police getting bribes or presents in
connection with No. 2 station ? No ; I never heard of it, and I would not btdieve it if I did.
11748. Did you ever hear that in these gambling-houses so much in the shilling was put aside to form a
fund called the Police Sustentation Fund ? *No ; I saw it in print.
11749. Did you understand that the object of that fund was to bribe the police to let the gamblers alone ?
According to what appeared in the papers that was what it was for, but I have no doubt in my own mind
that it was a lie.
11750. Toti believe it is absolutely untrue ?. Tes.
11751. Tou have a great deal of experience in connection with the police ? I have.
11752. "What has been your impression of the general character of constables, good or bad? Well, a
questionable character may get into any department, but if they do get into the police 1 can tell you they
remain a very short time. From my knowlege during eighteen years or more of the police force of New
South Wales I should say they were as well conducted and behaved in every way as any body of men in
the world.
11753. Did you ever know of any of them being dismissed for receiving bribes or presents from anyone
on their beats ? No case of that kind ever came under my notice.
11754. Mr. Quonff Tart.] How long have you been engaged under Mr. Atwill in Lower George-street?
Eight years next December.
11755. Mr. Hawthorn e.~\ Did you not spend some time in No. 2 division also? Tes; I was ten and a
half years there.
11756. And you had ample opportuuitv of investigating the Chinese quarters in that division as well as
No. 4? Tes.
11757. Mr. Quonc/ Tart.] Which do you consider the worst district now — No. 2 or No. 4? Well, I have
not had any knowledge of No. 2 for eight years, so I cannot speak with authority ; in fact I am a perfect
stranger to it now.
11758. Can you say when your attention was first called to Chinese gambling in Lower George-street?
It has been carried on, more or less, all the time.
11759. To what extent is it carried on now ; — do you think it has increased up to the present time, or
decreased ? I cannot say.
11760. Say within the last six months ? It is a very difficult thing for me to pick on the gamblers
because I never see it ; I may speak on suspicion.
11761. Well, are there more houses to let there, or have they changed hands ? The Chinese are always
vacating houses, and others coming into them again.
11762. Within the last six months are there more Chinese shops in Lower George-street, or are there
less ? Within the last three or four months, that is, since the Chinese Gambling League started there
have been less people about the Chinese places than formerly.
11763. Do you know if there are any of these Chinese places to let down there ? Tes ; there are some
to let ; I have seen the notices on the doors or windows.
11764. Tell me where are the Chinese business places — in what part of Lower George-street are they
mostly to be found ? There are more between Bridge-street and Circular Quay than further on ; but
there are Chinese all over the place there. 11765.
272—2 R
314
CIIIN'KSE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sergeant
Maguire.
18Nov.,1891
117(i">. Between Nil 1 station and Dawe9' Point are there many places to let? Yes; there have been
places empty there for months.
117GG. I asked you the question because of the complaints we have heard of the Chinese crowding out the
Europeans in that direction, and spoiling the business, and you say there aro plenty of shops to let?
Yes ; there have been shops to let there for sis months.
117(17. Has your attention ever been drawn to the Chinese gambling-places down there by" Chinese
informers? There was one Chinaman who used to live principally in the country, and who, when lie
would como to Sydney, would complain that gambling was carried on in this or that place. I really
believe — though of course I might be mistaken — that the man was hardly right in his head.
.11708. Would you take action at once if a reliable man came and told you that gambling was going on in
one of these places ? What action could 1 take — the police must get a warrant out before they can enter
a place, and that is the business of the inspector.
11769. I understood you to say that you turned out the Chinamen and Europeans from these places
sometimes ? Yes, from the front shops ; but I really had no power under the law to do that.
11770. You have heard, I suppose, that the people say that the police take no action, although they know
that gambling is carried on in these places ? Yes. I will explain how it is people are deceived in this
matter: A stranger may go along and see six or seven men standing inside one of these shops, and if
he asks anyone about for information about the place, he will probably be told, " Oh, they are gambling
in there" ; but that is not enough for us, I have to prove the thing ; it is not enough for me to see six
or seven men in a shop ; the gambling is carried on inside, and I must prove it.
11771. Mr. Hawthorne.] In the same way, if you see ten or a dozen youths assembled together in the
open air, you may know or shrewdly snspect in your own mind that they have been gambling, but you
must actually see them in the act before you can prosecute them ? Yes. In order to make a successful
raid on these gambling-houses we not only have to arrest the people we find there but secure the
gambling implements as well. In fact we have to prove clearly that gambling has been going on under
our own observation, in order to secure a conviction.
11772. The gambling is conducted away in the back premises, which are shut off by two or three barred
doors as a rule ? Yes.
11773. So that you have great difficulty in getting into the place where they are engaged in gambling ;
and, by the time you reach them, all the implements of gambling are, as a rule- cleared away ? Certainly.
11774. And there you see a certain number of men, whom you believe to have been gambling — in fact
you know in your own mind that they have been — but you have got nothing to prove it? We have no
doubt about the matter, but cannot prove it ; that is the position, we have no doubt.
11775. Mr. Quong Tart.] It has been stated that in some of these places they play behind a calico screen,
and that when the wind blows this on one side the gambling can be seen going o'n from the street ?
Well, I suppose I can see as much as other people, and I have never seen it. In every raid we have had
the greatest difficulty was in gaining an entrance to these places, and on the last occasion Mr. Atwill had to
use sledge-hammers, crow-bars, and picks to break the doors, and then it was only by the aid of some
civilians that we effected our object.
11 776. What would you suggest to do away with the difficulties that confront you in dealing with this
evil ? Well, my position is much humbler than other members of the police force that you have examined
here, and I do not know that 1 am in a position to suggest. I can offer my opinion only.
11777. Mr. Haivthorne.] You have a delicacy in answering the question because you think any suggestion
as to an amendment of the law for the suppression of the betting propensities of the Chinese or Euro-
peans should come from higher officers in the service than yourself ? Yes. I may offer an opinion, and
my answer to the question is that the law is inoperative.
11778. Mr. Abigail.] How can it be inoperative when you make successful raids ? What I mean is that
it ought not to be necessary to use crow-bars and picks in order to get into these places.
11779. It is extremely difficult under the existing law to deal with this question? Yes; that is why I
say the law is inoperative.
11780. Mr. Quong Tart.] Can you not make a suggestion as to how the law should be amended ? My
suggestion would have nS effect. It is the business of the law officers of the Crown to frame the law,
and the legislature passes it into effect.
11781. Quite so ; but, as an experienced police officer you ought to be able to recommend something that
would throw light on the subject ? I have already stated in the earlier part of my evidence that I would
make it an offence for persons to be found on the premises of a reputed gambling-house.
11782. Mr. Hawthorne.] In other words, for the efforts of the police to be effectual, you think it is
necessary that they should be able to go into a gambling-house at any time, and if you find persons
assembled there for the purpose of gambling, although you may not see them in the act, to arrest them
and charge them with the offence ? Yes. If the law were made like that, we shoul-.l not have much
difficulty.
11783. Mr. Quong Tart.] What game do the Chinese principally indulge in ? From what I have seen,
fan-tan is the principal, but they also play a game called pak-ah-pu, which I do not understand.
11781. Have you formed any idea which is the worst, fan-tan or pak-ah-pu? I never spent Is. on either,
so I cannot tell you.
1 1785. Do you know any of the bankers in connection with thelotteries ? I do not know anything about it.
11786. You have not found any of the Chinese merchants down there connected with gambling-houses ?
No ; they are strictly business men.
117S7. Do you think they are opposed to gambling? I do not think they trouble themselves about it.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. Bobert Anderson called and examined : —
Mr. 11788. President.] You are a retired Inspector of Police, Mr. Anderson? Yes.
R. Anderson. H789. While you were in the service in what parts of the city were you mostly engaged ? I was in the
<~l ""^ central division last. I was for fifteen years in that division.
IS Jiov., 1891. 1179o. What part is that ? That includes all that part of the city north of Margaret-street and Hunter-
street, as far as Liverpool-street. 11791.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 31$
11791. And where were you before that ? Before that I was in the north end of the citv. Mr-
11792. And that would include the Chinese quarters of Lower G-eorge-streefc? Yes. " R, Anderson.
11793. Plow many years were you there ? Between six and seven years. I took charge of that division 1XlT>~T^i
on the 19th J uue, 1808, and I left it on the 12th February, 1875. 18 T''
11794. Mr. Abigail."] During those years were there many Chinese residents in Lower George-street ?
Yes, there were a good many Chinese residents, merchants, cabinet-makers, and others, and there were
some houses which were reputed gaming-houses. There were about eleven of that class, I think, in that
division.
11795. Were they frequented by Europeans and Chinese ? They were situated in Lower George-street,
Harrington-street, Cambridge-street, Gloucester-street, Brownbear-lano, and Vinegar-lane.
11796. They were distributed over those places ? Yes.
11797. Were they considered at that time to be a great nuisance in that district ? Some of the inhabitants
complained, indeed, some of the respectable Chinese complained of them.
1179S. Lid you take any action in consequence ? I did. I may mention that I not only look action
agaiust any of I he Chinese that carried on unlawful gaming, but also took measures to prevent the Chinese
from being maltreated by the larrikin class. I may mention that the Games and Wagers Act is a very
defective measure. It is, in fact, one of the most confused pieces of legislation in the statute book.
11799. Is that the Act under which you have to proceed against the Chinese ? That is the present Act ;
but although it is so very defective it is quite evident from the preamble that it was the earnest intention of
the Legislature to put down all kinds of unlawful gaming. I think the preamble is something like this :
" Whereas the laws hitherto made in respect of unlawful gaming have been found of no avail to prevent
the mischief which may happen therefrom, be it therefore enacted," and so on — giving power to issue
warrants and search places, and so on. The (5th section of the Games and Wagers Act gives the police
power to enter all billiard and bagatelle rooms ; also all houses, shops, and premises of any kind, where
any bowls, fives, rockets, quoits, skittles, nine-pins, or any game of a like kind is played. "Taking these
concluding words, " any game of a like kind," with the preamble to the Act, I considered that this section
authorised me to enter any place where I had good reason to believe any unlawful game was going on, and
on that I acted.
11800. You acted upon that in connection with the Chinese gambling ? Yes, acting on the belief that
the 6th section gave me the power, as I have stated, I visited nil the places where I had reason to
believe gambling was carried on. I always was able to get information from the respectable class of
citizens ; indeed the more respectable Chinese themselves assisted me very materially. I never applied
for any warrant, as I considered the Act gave me authority sufficient for my purposes, and it has always
been my object, throughout the whole of my career, to prevent crime without prosecution, if possible.
So I instituted a systematic course of visitation late and early.
11801. How often did you visit those places ? Two or three times a week, according to the information
we got of what was going on. I may mention that one Sunday morning I paid an unexpected visit, very
quietly to a house called concerning which I had received information, and we got seventy-live men
gaming in a room at the top of the house.
11802. Europeans or Chinese ? They were all Chinese— cabinet-makers, market-gardeners, hiwkers, and
that class of men. The first thing I did was to seize all the money on the table and the counters, and
those who were j)resent ran away as fast as they could. I asked who the money and counters belonged
to, and as no one claimed them 1 handed them over to the Superintendent of Police on the following day.
I mention this case as an example of the system I adopted in dealing with them.
11803. President.] You simply dispersed them on that occasion ? Yes. I made a great many visits of
a similar nature.
1180-4. Did you take any action at all that led to a conviction ? On another occasion I visited a house in
Harrington-street in the evening. There must have been about eighty there, I should think ; some wore
gaming, and the remainder looking on. There was a large table in the room. I got in softly, but I had
not time to count those present before the lamps were put out. As I have said, however, I should think
there were about eighty. I had a talk with the keepers of these houses, and warned them that I certainly
would institute a prosecution of some kind against them if they did not stop the gambling. They all did
so except one, who was interested in keeping not only a gambling-house but a disorderly house. I
proceeded against him for keeping a disorderly house, and ho was convicted at the Quarter Sessions.
After that I really had no trouble in connection with Chinese gaming down there. When I left that
division, on the 12th February, 1875, there was not a Chinese gambling-house or disorderly house in it.
11805. During the term you have mentioned, am I right in concluding that the Chinese places were not
frequented by Europeans ? Not for the purpose of gaming. Women of loose character would visit them
occasionally, "but that I effectually stopped as well.
11806. Mr. Abigail.] Are we to conclude that this constant visitation had the effect of stamping the
Chinese gambling out ? Yes, it had.
11807. Were you ever a party to trying to obtain convictions against Chinese gambling, and failed, owing
to the defectiveness of the present law ? No ; I did not institute any proceedings of the kind. As I have
said before, the Act is very confused.
11808. You saw great difficulty in proceeding under it? Yes.
11809. Were you a party to aiiy proceedings at all against the Chinese gambling? Not further than I
have stated, bv a systematic visitation. I invariably went myself, taking a sergeant with me.
11810. President.'] You never took actual proceedings against them for violating the law ? No, except
in the case I have mentioned.
11811. That was also a gaming-house? Yes.
11812. You achieved your object by means of visitation ? Yes.
11813. Mr. Abigail.] Do you know if the Chinese gambling in Lower George-street has increased to any
extent of late ) ears ? I cannot give any particulars myself, but I have heard so.
11814. You have seen the reports that have been in the press ? Yes.
11815. Do you think that a system of visitation, the same as you established in your time, would have
the same effect now ? Well, I think if the system I established of visitation of all suspected places iu
that respect had been continued the present state of things, as alleged, would never have arisen.
11810. Mr. Hawthorne.] Are we to understand that those who have since been in charge of affairs there
have not visited those places regularly, or that they have adopted other methods ? I cannot say. I have
not the slightest idea what method has been adopted.
11817,
316 OIIISK.SE IfAMBLrSO COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
18Nov.,1891.
Mr- 1L817. Mr. Abii/ail] But I understand you to state that if the same regular system had been carried on
R.^Anderson. t]H. evjj wouiu uot have increased to the extent people say it has ? Xo ; 1 do not think so.
11818. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Do your remarks apply to Chinese gambling or the European method of betting ?
I am speaking of Chinese gambling.
11819. Tou were for many years in charge of the central division, were you not ? Yes.
11820. There was not much Chinese gambling in that division, was there F There were a few places, but
they were gradually stopped.
11821. How many years is it since you were attached to Xo. 4 station ? 1 left in February, 1875.
11822. That was fifteen years before your retirement ? Yes.
11823. Mr. Abigail] I suppose you read the accounts of the deputation that waited on the Colonial
Secretary on the subject of Chinese gambling ? Yes.
11824. And you saw that some serious charges were made against the police ? Yes.
11823. From your long experience in the police force of this city, do you think there was any justification
for those charges ? I do not think there is a word of truth in those charges. I know several of tho
officers of the division more particularly referred to, and they are men of high character.
11826. How long were you in the Xew' South Wales police force ? Thirty-five years and eight months.
11827. During that time did you ever have brought under your notice one case of a policeman having
received a present or bribe from any one on his beat? Xo ; I never had one such case.
18828. Were you ever offered a present, Mr. Anderson ? Xo ; except when I left that division. I was
presented with a handsome testimonial in the shape of an address and a gold watch and chain and a silver
tea and coffee service and gold watch and chain for my wife, which was given by the general public there,
including the Chinese merchants.
11829. So thait the articles of jewellery which you are now wearing were not purchased by you out of
your accumulated funds, or obtained as presents from persons with whom yon have to deal as a police
officer, but were simply presented to you as a token of esteem by the citizens of Sydney ? Yes ; they
were presented to me at a public meeting. ■
[Inscription on the case of the watch presented to Mr. Anderson :— " Presented to Robert Anderson, Esq., Sub
Inspector of Police, by his friends of the Northern Division, on the occasion of his transfer from the charge of that
Division to that of the Central Division of the city of Sydney ; March 31st, 1875."
11830. Mr. Abigail] Before you accepted that present did you have to consult the Inspector- General?
Yes ; I had to obtain sanction.
11-831. And you say that was the only occasion on which you received any present during your service in
Lower George-street, and that was publicly made as a recognition of your efficient discharge of your duty
and not for neglecting it ? Decidedly.
11832. Mr. Hawthorne.] That present was subscribed for by the public generally, a few Chinese
merchants being among the number — it was not distinctly a Chinese presentation ? Xo ; it was from all
classes and creeds.
11833. Mr. Abigail.] Do you know Inspector Atwill ? Yes.
11834. How long have you known him? About twenty-five years.
11835. Do you think he is a man who would be likely to take a bribe ? I do not think so. From what
I know of him I am certain he would not.
11836". Is he efficient in the discharge of his duty ? That is a subject I would rather not give an opinion
upon.
11837. Do you think he would be likely to wink at any breach of the law or any crime whatever for any
cause? I do not think he would -wink at anything in the shape of bribery.
11838. Do you think he would be likely to allow Chinese gambling to be carried on to the injury of a
whole district, for any reason whatever, if he could stop it ? I do not. Whether he would take the
proper steps to combat with the evil, of course I cannot say. I was always too busily engaged with my
own duties to pay much attention to others.
11839. Mr. Haivthorne.l Would you think him above suspicion in the matter of accepting a bribe? I
am certain he would not do it ; he is a man of high character.
11840. Mr. Abigail] Does that remark also apply to other officers of the police with whom you have
come in contact during your service in the force? Yes ; more particularly the old officers. I would not
speak with such confidence of men I had not known for a long time.
11841. Do you know Senior-sergeant Higgins ? Yes ; he is one of tho best non-commissioned officers in
the whole of the service.
11842. Do you know whether he has accumulated any property ? I believe he has.
11843. Do you think it likely that Sergeant Higgins was helped to acquire his property by accepting
bribes ? I do not believe it. A more honourable, upright man in every way I do not know than Sergeant
Higgins.
11844. Do youknow Constable Beadman? I know there is such a man, but cannot speak of him personally.
11845. Was Sergeant Macintosh in Xo. 4 division when you were there ? Xo.
11846. Was Dawson there ? He was.
11847. Do you think he is a man likely to do anything of that kind ? Xo ; he is a man of high character1
and an efficient officer. I do not think he would accept bribery in the discharge of his duty.
11848. While you were down there were any complaints made against Chinese storekeepers of receiving
stolen property ? There was a complaint made in one case.
11849. Was it Way Kee ? Xo. I would not call this man a storekeeper. He lived in Harrington-
street. There was some old copper found in the place, and there was some action taken, but it could not
be proved that he knew of the copper having been stolen. That is the only case I remember.
11850. Did the Chinese ever give you any assistance in carrying out the law while you were down there ?
Yes ; I received assistance in that way from the respectable Chinese merchants.
11851. Apart from gambling, did you find the Chinese a riotous or drunken class — did they give the'
police much trouble ? Quite the contrary ; they are a quiet and orderly people ; even those men who
gambled were quiet. They gave the police no trouble whatever.
11852. So that if the Chinese gambling as at present carried on were suppressed there would not be much
cause for a great outcry against these people ? Xo; unless things have altered very much since I was
there. The Chinese as a class are very orderly. In all my experience I never saw a Chinaman drunk.
11853. Are they exceptionally clean in the way they keep their premises ? Xo ; they are not. Some-
times we had cause of complaint in that direction. 11854.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 317
11854. Sometimes their premises were not in keeping with proper sanitary regulations ? Yes. Mr-
11855. Have you heard of them being prominent in assaults upon women, or anything of that kind ? K Anderson .
JNo. On the contrary, the European women living with them have often spoken of the uniform kindness .rT^T^,
they receive at their hands. 18 ]SoT-' 1891-
11856. Gambling is their only bad characteristic ? It is the only one 1 know of. I may mention that I
was assisted by some of the cabinet-makers who used to go to the gambling-shops themselves. They
were exceedingly glad when it was put down. In one place in particular— Ah Toy's— they told me on
one occasion when I was there that they were very glad I had taken steps in that direction:
J1°°J- -A°Y thl, that reallv efficient visiting is, perhaps, the best weapon that can be used against this
evil.'' Under the present law, yes ; but at the same time I think that the present Act should be recast
altogether.
11858. Can you offer any suggestion as to how the present Act should be amended to make it effective ?
lhat, perhaps, would take too long. But I think it might be made to embrace all the present forms
of gambling. You will see, if you read the Act, that many of the- forms of gambling mentioned there
are not known now, and I think, therefore, it should be altered not onlvto meet the present requirements
but be made so elastic as to meet all future forms of gambling, as they are so frequently changing.
Perhaps in ten years hence there will be forms of gambling not known at the present time. There is
also too much circumlocution about the present Act, and it should be made more simple and clear, in
order to enable the authorities to deal effectively with this evil.
11859. Then you would amend the law so as to 'enable the police to deal with all present and future forms
of gambling whatsoever ? Yes.
11860. You would be in favour of making it a penal offence to be found in a gambling-house ? Yes, I
think so. ' *
11861. Do you know that at the present time the Chinese erect strong barricades inside their houses,
and bolt and bar the doors for the purpose of keeping out the police? I have heard so, but have no
knowledge of it personally.
11862. If it is so, would it not be well to prevent the bolting and barring of doors, aud so forth ? In my
time I should have asked why the barricades were erected. But they never attempted to interfere with
me in any way.
11863. In your time these barricades did not exist ? No.
11864. Mr. Quong Tart.'] I believe there was a great deal of larrikinism in Lower George-street while
you were there, Mr. Anderson ? Yes ; and I put a stop to it, for which I received a special letter of
thanks from Messrs. Curtis and Gannon.
11865. Your only object was to maintain the law without respect to the question of race or nationality ?
Yes.
1186G. Did you find the Chinese merchants in Lower George-street willing to co-operate with you in
putting down the gambling evil? Yes, they often offered to assist me, such men as On Chong, Cheang
Ah Teek, and Ah Toy and others.
11867. How many gambling-places were there in Lower George-street during your time ? There were
eleven reputed gambling-houses, where gambling was occasionally carried on.
11868. Were there any lottery-shops there for the sale of pak-ah-pu tickets ? No ; there was none of
that then ; only fan-tan.
11869. Mr. Hawthorne.] While you were stationed at No. 4 station did you ever receive from the
Chinese merchants any presents of preserved ginger, chests of tea, or anything of that kind ? No.
11870. Is it a customary thing at the New Year time for instance? I do not think so.
11871. You never found it so in your own case ? No; I have visited the Chinese, and had tea with
them ; or some whisky, perhaps at the New Year, and I think I had champagne On one occasion.
11872. But you never received anything in the shape of a Christmas box ? No.
11873. Mr. Quong Tart.] You went in simply to show good feeling? Yes, that is, I am speaking now of
the respectable merchants, such as Sun Kum Tiy, On Chong, and others.
11874. Mr. Hawthorne.] You could go in and out of these places with perfect confidence, because they
never gave you any trouble ? Yes, and not only that, but they gave me every assistance when I wanted it.
11875. Mr. Quong Tart.] In your time down there did you ever hear of any complaints from the
European residents of Lower George-street that the Chinese obstructed the loot traffic, or interfered with
females passing up and down in any way ? No, so far as my memory serves mo 1 did not. I have found
the Chinese as a class very orderly.
1L876. You found them inclined to obey you when you spoke to them? Yes.
11877. If you went into European houses the same as you did in these Chinese places you speak of,
where gambling was going on, that is, places of the same class, you would have to take certain precautions?
Yes.
11878. About the sanitary condition of the Chinese premises, you say some of them were dirty ? Yes,
there were complaints made on that score. I remember there were some places I had received complaints
about, but when I spoke to them about it, they set to work to clean them, and kept them clean.
11 879. Do you ihink those persons knew the sanitary law in the first place ? Possibly they did not. As
I have said, they paid attention to what I told them.
11880. Do you think if they were constantly visited, and made to understand what the law was, that they,
as law-abiding people, would keep the law ? I believe such would be the case from my experience of
them in that respect in the past.
11881. Supposing notices were written in Chinese character, stating the regulations as to sanitary arrange-
ments, that only so many persons should.be allowed to sleep in one room, and sp od, do you think that
would have a good effect ? Yes, possibly it might. There is no doubt a great deal of overcrowding
amongst the Chinese. I think some arrangement of that kind— to provide that each individual should
have so many cubic feet of air — is very necessary.
11882. Did you find much opium-smoking there? Yes, there were a good many opium smokers in those
places where 1 suspected gambling to be carried on. There were two or three women who contracted the
habit too, and I spoke to them very strongly. They left the locality soon afterwards. 1 used to person-
ally visit those places where I suspected gambling was carried on very frequently.
118S3. Is it true that the Chinese decoy young women to their places, or have you ever known any cases?
Well,
318
CIIIXESE GAMLLUJO COilJIISSIO— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. Well, there were some young women who used to frequent several of those places, but I cannot say about
E. Anderson. them bejng decoycd_
18\^"]RM1 HS83. In those cases would you say that the voung women were virtuous before they went there, or were
' they already degraded? I can only say that wo found some young women there. I invariably turned
them away myself if I went, and I employed one officer specially, I think it was Senior-sergeant
Brad well, to see that no young women were allowed to remain in the Chinese quarters, of the character I
refer to.
11881. Mr. Haivthorne.] The young women you found in the Chinese quarters, were they, any of them,
of tho more respectable class? In some eases I have found highly-educated women among the Chinese.
11SS3. What are we to understand — that you found young women of poor but respectable parentage
going to live amongst the Chinese for purposes of prostitution ? Well, it may be only for a time. Eor
instance, I can mention, without giving the name, the case of one young woman, of a respectable Colonial
family, who learnt to smoke opium there, but I got her away. Then, again, I found quite an accomplished
lady in one place in Cambridge-street. fShe was brought by a Chinaman from Melbourne. I spoke to her
on several occasions, and advised her. Of course if 1 found a young woman in a place of that kind, I tried
to do something with her, and to that cud spoke to her kindly. This man kept a brothel there, and kept
this educated young person for his own purposes.
11S86. They were not married? No; she was about 20 years of age, and apparently an educated and
refined person, with small hands, unaccustomed to work, and in every way lady-like in appearance. That
woman is now the wife of one of the richest men in this Colony.
11887. And you found her in a Chinese den ? Yes, in Cambridge-street. This man had brought her
from Melbourne with him. I had a very earnest conversation with her, and offered her assistance to go
away. She said she had some friends. The next time I visited the place she was gone. I did not see her
again until the opening of the exhibition in Prince Alfred Park, when I saw her with her husband on that
occasion. The last time I saw this lady she was sitting in her carriage, opposite David Jones' shop, in
George-street, with her two little boys.
11888. The instances you are giving us, I suppose, are few and far between ? Yes.
11889. The general run of females you have found associated with the Chinese are taken from the ranks
of prostitutes ? Yes, most of them are. I may mention the case of another young woman, the daughter
of a respectable man in Surry Hills. I found her in a house in Brownbear-lane, at 3 o'clock one morning,
in an advanced state of pregnancy. I took her up to the Cumberland-street Station, and got her a com-
fortable bed in my own room. In the morning, after speaking to her kindly, and advising her, I took her
to Mr. Crane, C.P.S., at the Water Police Court, and got an order for her admission to the Benevolent
Asylum. 1 told her when she gut over her troubles to endeavour to get into service with a respectable
family. She did so ; and now she is a respectable married woman, living within a quarter of a mile of
where we are now sitting.
1 1800. Mr. Tart.] You have said yoa found women opium-smoking in reputed Chinese gambling-houses?
Two of them.
11891. Did you find many of that class of women there ? Not a great many. I always ordered them out
when I visited those places.
1 1892. If anyone has stated that large numbers of young women visit these Chinese quarters, would that
be true? It was not so in my time. I could always count the number of young women who frequented
this class of houses.
11893. Mr. Hawthorne.] Plave you ever found, concerning the opium question, that it is possible for
young women to visit the Chinese quarters for the purpose of smoking opium, and still retain their
respectability in other respects ? No; I do not think that would be possible. No respectable woman
would do so. I used to endeavour to persuade them to discontinue the habit. I noticed that one of the
effects of opium-smoking was to cause a falling away of flesh. It is so with the Chinese themselves ; and
I remarked it in the young woman I have referred to as having contracted the habit. She was a young
woman. I lost sight of her, and what became of her I do not know.
1L89L You have had considerable experience of ex-Inspector Mackay, in his official capacity, have you
not? Yes.
11895. Have you always found him to bo a man of high character? Yes; I regard him as a highly
honorable man in every respect. He is one of the most honorable men I have ever known.
11896. And you think that any offer of a bribe from a Chinaman, or any other man, so far as he is con-
cerned, would meet with scornful rejection ? Certainly.
[The witness withdrew.]
THURSDAY, 19 NOVEMBER, 1891.
JDresmt: —
The Mayor or Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J. P.), President.
PEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbesident.
EAMSEY MuKILLOP, Esq., | Q.UONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. George Eead called, and examined : —
Supt. Read. 11897. Mr. Abigail.] You are the Superintendent of Police, Mr. Eead? Yes — Superintendent of Police
, *■ , for the Metropolitan Police District.
19Nov.,1891. 11898. How long have you held that position ? I have been in the Sydney police for some thirty-six
years, and have been Superintendent of Police for about twenty years.
11S99. What was the first rank you obtained in the Sydney police ? My position was that of a detec-
tive when I first came here — for a very short period.
11900. Then you have gone through all the stages of the force? Yes; every stags in the service. I
may say that I came here from London under engagement with the Colonial Government to serve in the
police force of this city.
11901.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 319
11901. Therefore you have an intimate knowledge of the proceedings of the police in connection with the Supt. Read.
city of Sydney ? Tes ; I am presumed to be tolerably well acquainted with police matters. <-— ^^ "*-
11902. You know the purpose and objects of this Commission? I believe I apprehend thein. 19 Nov., 1891.
11903. We arc appointed in consequence of what took place at a deputation to the Colonial Secretary,
when certain statements of a very serious character were mado again t the police, more particularly of the
Lower George-street district, namely, of receiving bribes and conniving at the Chinese gambling in that
portion of the city. The object of bringing you here to-day is to get as full a knowledge from you as
possible in reference to the police, or anything else you may know bearing on the subject of our inquiry ?
I quite understand that. ° ■
11904. At that deputation to the Premier, it was stated, in the first place, that a number of the police
were influenced in their action with regard to the Chinese gambling, in consequence of the ownership of
many of the properties m which this practice has been carried on ;— have you heard or do you know any-
thing to justify that statement ? I do not believe any such considerations influence the police in the
smallest degree, so far as I have been able to ascertain.
11905. I believe you frequently visit the different portions of the city yourself, Mr. Eead ? Oh yes, I
am about daily and nightly.
11906. You have paid frequent visits to Lower George-street ? I am there, perhaps, five nights out of
the seven every week.
11907. And you know, as a matter of fact, that gambling is carried on there largely in a number of
Chinese places ? There is gambling and a good deal of pJay amongst the Chinese— play, I mean similar
to card parties amongst the Chinese, where, to give a zest to the game, they deposit 3d. or 6d. with the
object nf making the entertainment more interesting.
11908. It has been stated that fan-tan is indulged in by hundreds of Europeans, who visit these places
nightly, Sundays included ? There is no doubt that the Chinese ,play fan-tan extensively, and that
Europeans, to some extent, have participated in the game.
11909. It is also urged that a large number of men go into these places and lose the whole of their
weekly wages, leaving their wives and families in absolute poverty in consequence, and, it is contended,
that if the police were sufficiently active in the discharge of their duties, that this state of things could be
stopped ? I have no doubt that some persons, Europeans, have lost money in playing fan-tan with the
Chinese ; but it is a very remarkable fact that no complaint has ever been made to me personally by any
person who have sustained loss in that way.
11910. It has been stated that complaints have frequently been made to the officers of No. 41 station, and
to the policemen on duty in Lower George-street, and that the persons who have made these complaints
have been treated in a very flippant, and, in some instances, offensive manner ? No such complaints have
ever been communicated to me.
11911. Do you know whether any special instructions are issued to the police in that portion of the city,
or any part of the city, with respect to the Chinese gambling ? I have frequently impressed upon the minds
of the officers the importance of paying all the attention practicable to gambling in the city generally, and
especially to the gambling in the Chinese quarters.
11912. You know that a number of raids have been made upon these Chinese gambling-houses ? At
various times, yes.
11913. And in most cases they have resulted in convictions? Yes, for the most part, they have been
successful in that respect.
11914. But these raids have been made at very long intervals, and it is urged that if the raids were made
more frequently, or if a rigid police inspection of the premises were carried out, as was done in the years
187G and 1877, it wrould have the effect of stamping out the evil ? But the raids which have been made
have been made after careful observation and preparation, that is to say, when it was thought that the
gambling proceedings, which wore presumed to have been carried on, were of such a character as to insure
the obtaining of sufficient evidence for conviction. I am not aware that any different course was adopted
about the dates you mention, and I was in Sydney then. But, as a matter of fact, there was not then the
same cause for action as has existed during more recent years.
11915. The evidence given is to the effect that in 1876 and 1877 there were in that district about ten or
twelve Chinese gaming-houses, and that very few Europeans then visited them ? I do not suppose they
did. As a matter of fact, gambling amongst the Chinese has increased simultaneously with its development
amongst Europeans. At the date you mention there was comparatively little gambling amongst the
Chinese ; nor was there amongst the Europeans, compared to what exists at the present day.
11916. The evidence we have had is to the affect, that the places I mention, ten or twelve, were frequented
chiefly, in fact, almost solely by Chinese, and that, on several occasions, the police visited one of the places
and found as many as sixty or seventy Chinese engaged in the game of fan-tan ; but a very close
visitation of these premises took place, and, as a result, at the end of 1877 those ten or twelve places had
disappeared ; — have you any knowledge of that? I am not aware that any closer visitation took place
then than now. Of course there is much more to attend to now than there was at that period. The
police business generally has increased enormously. My impression is that the police supervision was
not more effective then than it has been recently. Chinamen, like other people, profit by experience.
When a few Chinamen are prosecuted they take additional precautions to prevent the police obtaining
evidence and consequent convictions.
11917. What are these additional precautions ? Well, I do not remember, until recently, for instance,
that the Chinamen effectually secured their premises against the approach of the police. Not long since
there was a raid made upon a place in Lower George-street, in which, I was informed, there were no less
than three doors to break through before the police could obtain entrance to the gambling-room.
11918. Do you think they should be forbidden to erect barricades to bar the progress of inspection ? I
may mention that by a law which was passed not very long ago in New Zealand, the barricading of pre-
mises reasonably presumed to be gambling-premises is in itself an offence.
11919. And you think such a law would facilitate the operations of the police here? Yes. It would
facilitate the obtaining of evidence, because there would be no obstructions to break through in order to
gain an entrance.
il920. While we are on that point I would ask, with reference to the present mode of dealing with
gambling-house, do you think it desirable that the police must first arm themselves with a warrant before
attempting
320 CHINESE OAMTU.TNG COMMISSION' — MTXITES (IF EVIDENCE.
Supt. Read, attempting to deal with any of these gambling-houses,"although tliey may be firmly convinced of the
<C*~"^"^N character of those houses a* such ? I think every non-commissioned officer of police, and, perhaps, every
19 Nov., 1891. first_c]aR3 constable, should have authority to arrest on view— that is, if he sees the gambling law is being
violated, he should have authority to effect an arrest, the same as he would have if he saw one man pick
another man's pocket. I may mention incidentally that I have recently been looking at some of the
Police Returns from California, and I find that there they have a law empowering the police to arrest all
persons (Europeans) found in a fan-tan house ; all persons offering pak-nh-pu tickets for sale ; all per-
sons purchasing such tickets, and all persons having them in their possession ; — all these are offences for
which the police can arrest. This, of course, facilitates police operations considerably, and if that
were incorporated in our law here, it would enable us to effectually stamp out this evil, I am certain.
11921-2. Do you think the landlords of these places, after proper notice being given them, should be made
parties to any proceedings the police may take, for allowing their properties to be occupied by the persons
who keep gambling-shops ? Well, that is rather a delicate question. The landlord cannot possibly know
what the premises are required for — that is to say, he has no right to assume that they are required for
some illegitimate purpose, and it would be a hardship to make him responsible for what he could not
possibly prevent in the first place.
11923. But afterwards — after the proceedings have been taken (say) and a conviction obtained against
one of these gambling-houses, and the landlord duly notified to that effect, if gambling should be carried
on after that, do you not think the landlord should' then be held in- a' measure responsible ? I think,
perhaps it might be an advantage that he should have some kind of responsibility, but as I have said, it
is rather a delicate matter to legislate in.
11924. ISow, from your extensive knowledge and experience in the city, what is your impression as to the
effects of Chinese gambling upon the general community, Mr. Eead ? 1 think it is extremely demoralising,
for a reason which I desire to give. If a man wants to go and gamble after the European fashion— at
Eandwick, for instance — he must go provided with considerable funds. lie could not do the thing
respectably there unless he had £5 or £10 in his pocket. But the gambling indulged in by theChinese
is adapted to the circumstances of labouring men and the lower classes generally. Eor instance, if a man
has only Is. in his pocket he can go into a Chinese gambling-house and play a couple of games of fan-tan
at 6d. a game, and have a chance of winning, perhaps, 10s. or 15s. That is why I consider Chinese
gambling a serious evil.
11925. Do you know, or have you heard, that it is resorted to by young lads, and even young women,
sometimes? Yes, they frequently do, I believe ; although I am satisfied that the police endeavour, so far
as they can, to keep them away, and generally to purge the evil of the European element.
11926. Have you ever heard of the police going in and finding a number of those people playing, and
hunting them out ? Yes, I have heard of-occurrenees of that nature.
11927. Have you ever heard it stated that on occasions of that kind there has been a scramble for the
money on the table, and that members of the police force have been large gainers by that ? 1 have heard
of the police taking possession of money they have found in gambling-houses, on one or two occasions,
which money they have brought to the station, and reported to the officer on duty there ; and as no claim
has been made for the money it has been forwarded to my office.
11928. Can you state about how many of these cases have come under your notice ? I cannot say how
many. I may mention that gambling eases of that kind are comparatively common ; for instance,
perhaps the police discover a number of larrikins playing u pitch-and-toss " on a vacant piece of ground,
and immediately the players see the constable they clear away, frequently leaving some of their money
behind them ; the police take possession of the money, and bring it to the station, where they report
the matter in due course.
11929. You read, I suppose, the account that appeared in the daily papers in July last, of a deputation
that waited on the Premier, and which contained statements as to bribery and corruption in the ranks of
the police force ? Yes.
11930. When you read that, did it come upon you as a surprise? Not at all ; for I have been hearing
for the last thirty years and more that all the grades in the police department were bribed — the Superin-
tendent, the inspectors, the sergeants, and everybody else.
11931. Then of course, not being surprised, you did not take any steps to satisfy yourself whether there
was any truth whatever in those statements ? When I saw the paragraph, I spoke to Mr. Atwill, the
officer in charge of the northern end of the town, and asked him whether he thought there were any grounds
for any such statements, and he said he was satisfied there was not the slightest ground for it whatever. I
may mention that inquiries have been made into charges of that nature in former years, and I know. of only
one instance during the whole course of my experience in which there appeared anything like reasonable
grounds of suspicion : that occurred about twelve or thirteen years ago, and the services of the constable
were dispensed with ; that is the only instance I have ever heard of.
11932. But these statements have been made by Members of Parliament; does not that give greater
weight to them ? It might in the estimation of some persons, but it does not in my estimation, considering
the circumstances under which the statements were made ; I think they were made hurriedly, without
sufficient consideration, and that they did not fully realise the importance of the statements which they
made.
11933. One gentleman said that the police saw that the Anti-Chinese Gambling League were moving in
the direction, and suddenly a successful raid was made in consequence ; do you know whether the police
were influenced at all in that direction? The raid Was made before the deputation waited on the
Colonial Secretary.
11934. But do you know whether the police were influenced in any way by what was taking place down
there among the people — such as the agitation of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? I don't think so,
as far as I can ascertain. I may mention that about four or five weeks before that raid was made I
passed the house in question late one night, and saw some Europeans going in and out ; I met the officer
in charge (Inspector Atwill) on Circular Quay shortly afterwards, and I mentioned that he should give
special attention to this matter, and make preparations for a raid upon this particular house ; and the
result was that the raid was made to which you refer.
11935. Has it ever come under your notice that members of the police' have stated that they could not do
anything in connection with these gambling-houses, because the buildings occupied by the Chinese were,
owned
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 321
owned by Members of Parliament, and other influential men ? I have heard that that has been said by Supt. Read,
i tcrae11 £ersons' but have failed to discover that there was the slightest ground for the statement. ^-"' •
11936. One of the Members of Parliament on the deputation said that the police were not content with 19Nov.,1891.
getting gold watches within three months, but that they must have diamond rings on their fingers ; and
that it was a well-known fact that they were being paid to keep their eyes shut to what was going on
down Uere. Do you know anything at all that would wan-ant such a statement as that ? I may state
broadly that I do not believe that any menber of the police force in Sydney ever received 6d. from any
Lnmese by way of a bribe ; and I may also say that if it were true that some of the Chinese had made
presents to the police I should not be surprised, for the simple reason that many of them are under very
°vI18I1 jv i obl^.atlo1ns to the P°]ice- I myself have had to direct sometimes that fifteen or twenty men
should be placed in the vicinity of their quarters to protect them from the violence of the larrikins ; and
constituted as human nature ordinarily is, I can well believe that these Chinese might feel themselves
under considerable obligations to the police, and they would very likely be disposed to recognise it in the
same manner as, Europeans ordinarily do.
11937. Do you know of their having made a present to any member of the police force ? I think they
did, to a man named Dawson ; that is the only instance that occurs to me at the present moment.
11938. Another statement made by a Member of Parliament was to the effect that he believed the police
winked at the Chinese gambling evil, and that the Chinese were informed when a raid was about to be '
made on their premises. Do you think it possible that by any action of the police attached to No. 4
station the Chinese knew the day beforehand that a raid was to be made ? I do not think they could
have known, certainly not from any member of the police force. But it is possible that when application
was made for a warrant at the Police Court that it may have been overheard by some person in the
office at the time, and communicated by them to the Chinese. In fact the officer in charge of No. 4
station made a complaint to me on the subject, to the effect that he had noticed on the particular day he
took out a warrant on one occasion, the gambling was suspended in the very house on which he intended
to make a raid ; and that he had noticed the same thing happen on one or two occasions previously.
In consequence, he made application to the Clerk of Petty Sessions at the Water Police Court, to allow
him to take the warrant forms, and permit him to make out his own warrant ready for signature, so that
it might not by any possibility become known.
11939. "Was he permitted to' do so ? No. It was considered that it would be a breach of the office
regulations, and the officer in charge of the office took exception to the course proposed.
11940. If that were permitted under the present law would it facilitate the operations of the police in
some measure ? It would secure additional secrecy.
11941. I find it stated that the police are afraid to take action because they believe that Members of the
Legislative Council or the Lower House of Parliament would use their influence to have them removed
from the force. Now, has any Member of Parliament ever influenced you, or tried to, or would any
attempt of the kind have had any effect upon you ? No Member of the Legislative Assembly or the
Upper House has ever spoken to me on the subject, or, I believe to any other officer of the police, or the
head of the Department. And I think I may say of the officers (that is the inspectors) in charge of the
several divisions — for it is mainly their responsibility— that they would not be influenced one iota by
anything which might be said to them by any persons such as you have mentioned.
11942. Again, it was said by some Member of Parliament that Inspector Atwill should carry out his
duties more fearlessly than he did. Have you any reason to believe that Inspector Atwill does not carry
out his duties fearlessly ? No, I have not. I may say that I have sometimes said to him that I should
be glad if he could do a little more in the direction of suppressing Chinese gambling ; but he represented
that he did the best he could under the circumstances, and in the face of the difficulties he had to contend
against, which in numerous instances were almost insuperable. I have sometimes feared that the small
penalties that have been inflicted on convicted persons, and the obvious failure of prosecutions to effect
any diminution of the evil, might have slightly discouraged the police in some instances. It seems to be
very much like proceeding against persons for drunkenness ; the thousands of arrests made yearly do
not seem to have the slightest effect in the way of diminishing drunkenness. The small penalties imposed
in the case of gamblers is no real punishment to them. It simply has the effect apparently of inducing
them to take additional precautions against future prosecutions.
11943. Do vou think it would be a good thing to award imprisonment in such cases rather than a fine ?
I think it would be a capital idea, because when a man is in gaol he can do no harm.
11944. Have you ever heard of a fund being subscribed for in connection with the Chinese gambling-
houses, called " the police fund," and which is raised and maintained by deducting a small percentage
from the winnings in these places ? I heard a statement of that kind recently, but I did not attach much
importance to it, because I knew it could not be true.
11945. After the deputation to the Premier on the 31st of July, I believe you supplied a report to the
Colonial Secretary on this particular question ? I did.
11946. Is this [produced] a copy of your report ? It is.
11947. In that report I notice you say in very emphatic terms that there is no truth whatever in the
charges of bribery against the police ? Yes ; I was quite certain that there could not be anything of the
kind.
11948. You arrived at that conclusion after mature consideration, and reviewing in your mind the whole
of the circumstances and your knowledge of the police ? Yes ; the fact is, that no man after he has been
in the police service a short time, and become acquainted with its internal arrangements would attempt
to receive a bribe unless he desired to lose his situation, because he could clearly see if he had any brains at
all, that he could not do so without being detected. In short no man could carry on a system of bribery
in the police force without being detected. This is so, for two general reasons. In the first place the
persons whom it would pay to bribe the police are the last persons you could trust in such matters ; and
in the next place, if the police were wicked enough to be consenting parties to such a transaction there
would be too many to settle with.
11949. You know that Chinese gambling has increased of late years ? Yes ; as I have said, it has increased
simultaneously with the development of gambling amongst Europeans, but whether the Chinese have
been infected to a larger extent with the mania by the Europeans, or the Europeans by the Chinese, I am
unable to sav. But the fact remains that it has increased amongst them simultaneously.
272—2 S 11950.
322
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Supt. Bead. 119-50. Have you thought about the relative proportion of Chinese to European gambling? Yes, I have
C^^ "^ often thought about it. Taking the aggregate Chinese in Sydney, a lai'ger proportion of thero indulge in
19 Nov., 1891. galling tj,an 0f the aggregate European population ; but the amount of money that changes hands in con-
nection with Chinese gambling transactions in a whole year is not equal to the amount that changes
hands at (say) Eandwick at a principal race meeting in one day. I am quite satisfied of that.
11951. So that while you think there is need for a change in the law as regards Chinese gambling, you
also think that the subject of European gambling is deserving of attention ? Yes, there is even a greater
need for amendment of the Act as regards European gambling.
1 1952. The question of European gambling is one which I should very much like to examine you upon,
Mr. Eead ; but it does not come within the scope of our inquiry. I am sorry it does not, because I know
that the effect of the gambling tendency on the community in general is alarming. Now with reference
to the influence, morally speaking, of the residence of Chinese in this city, has it come under your notice
that young European girls have been entrapped to the Chinese quarters for immoral purposes ? I believe
there have been a number of instances of Chinamen enticing young girls into their quarters, and they
have no doubt behaved indecently to them.
11953. Do you think that occurs to the same extent now that it did a few years ago ? I think not.
1195-1. During the years 1877 and 1878 1 believe some very active steps were taken to suppress that kind
of thing ? Tes, there were a few very bad cases about that time.
11955. Young girls used to be found in the Chinese places in Goulburn-street and thereabouts ? Yes.
The instructions to the police are that they shall at once proceed against any girls discovered under such
circumstances, when they are under the age of 1G years, and can be dealt with in terms of the Industrial
Schools Act.
11956. Tour impression is, that there are not many cases of that kind in the city at the present time ? I
do not think there are now.
11957. Are there many Chinese brought up by the police for offences other than gambling ;— are they
drunken and riotous, for example ? No ; they are a remarkably orderly and sober people. Apart from
gambling they are not much trouble to the police.
11958. Do you know anything about the sanitary condition of the Chinese quarters ? As regards general
_ cleanliness I do not think they are equal to $he average Europeans. But I think a considerable improve-
ment has taken place in that respect during recent years ; whether from contact with Europeans, or from
a more rigorous enforcement of municipal sanitary laws or regulations, I do not know.
11959. Has it come within your knowledge that the Chinese as a class are amenable to advice, and that
when they are visited, and a certain course of action is pointed out to them as regards the observance of
sanitary laws, they are disposed to follow it willingly ? Yes ; I think they are very attentive to any-
thing that is said to them on the subject. But their habits and associations are essentially different from
Europeans.
11960. Are they in the habit of overcrowding their houses? There are usually many more of them in
one building than there should be.
11961. Do you think if a Common Lodging-house Act were passed applying to the Chinese, restricting
them as to the number of persons to be allowed in a building, and also providing for the observance of
sanitary regulations, that it would have a good effect? I think it is a very desirable and much-needed
measure.
11962. In your opinion, has the fact of the Chines^ congregating as they have done in places like Goul-
bourn-street and Lower George-street, a deteriorating effect upon the district — in other words, lowers the
tone of it ? No doubt it has that effect. I think there cannot be any question about that. No decent man,
unless his circumstances compelled him, would like to reside in the vicinity of ordinary Chinese quarters.
11963. So that it would affect business as well ? It would, I should suppose.
11964'. Have you any suggestion to make as to any alteration of the law that would give increased facili-
ties to the police in dealing with the Chinese, and thus tend to obviate the evils we are dealing with ?
Well some time ago I forwarded to the Inspector-General of Police a number of suggestions for the
amendment of the law, and I think they were by him forwarded to the Colonial Secretary, and should be
in his hands now.
11965. Could you furnish the Commission with a copy of those suggestions ? I have not a copy.
11966. President.] Can you state from memory what the suggestions were ? One suggestion was that
persons should be held liable for selling tote tickets in the public streets.
11967. Mr. Abigail.'] And Pak-ah-pu tickets as well ? Tes ; and another was that the provision in the
New Zealand Act, making it an offence to erect strong doors at the entrance to premises presumed to be
gambling-premises should be adopted.
11968. And another was, I suppose, dealing with people found on the premises ? I do not remember
whether that was referred to.
11969. I thought you referred to that earlier in your evidence, and that you thought it would be desirable ?
I said that such a law was in force in San Erancisco.
11970. Tou also referred to a provision for allowing first-class constables and all non-commissioned
officers to enter these suspected gaming-houses without a warrant ? Tes ; and to effect an arrest when-
ever they should see the law being violated.
11971. Now, supposing I were to take a shop here, and put up a notice to the effect that gambling was
being carried on day and night on my premises, how would the police deal with me under the existing
law ? It would be a reason for keeping you under close observation, but it would not afford ground sufficient
for instituting proceedings against you.
11972. Do you know that, as a matter of fact, there are in the city of Sydney about fifty places exhibiting
notices of that character ? I have been informed that there are such notices, but I am not able to reafl
Chinese.
11973. The white paper notices that you may have observed on the walls and windows of Chinese shops
in Lower George-street, Wexford-street, Goulburn-street,and Campbell-street, signify that fan-tanis carried
on in these places day and night? I have seen placards similar to these [produced] in Chinese
characters.
11974. I am bound to say that I have been rather surprised to hear a number of constables state that
they did not know what these notices meant, since it appears to me that it is the duty of constables on a
beat
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 323
beat to make themselves acquainted with all public notices, and more especially those in a foreign Supfc. Bead,
language ? A constable could not know unless he, employed an interpreter. No constable that I know ' *~^~^
of can unders tand Chinese. 19 Nor-» ! 891-
11975. There are interpreters at the disposal of the Police Department, I understand ;— would it not have
been advisable to obtain the services of one of these to translate the notices ? It might be well that the
police should know it, although I fail to see that it would be of very great advantage to them, because
1 1 %aVVn and °Ut °f the Chinese quarters almost every day, and know what is going on in these places.
11976. But would it not strengthen your evidence in prosecuting the keepers of one of these places if
you could show that they held out a public notice^which is tantamount to an invitation to the public—
that gambling was carried on in those premises day and night ? Incidentally, it might be, but it would
not be evidence on which to base a prosecution. For example, a burglar might put up a notice that he
committed burglaries on every opportunity that presented itself in the city and suburbs, every week, but
that m itself would not be a reason for taking proceedings against him.
11977. But suppose you did proceed against him on a distinct charge, and supplied that as a supple-
mentary evidence ? I doubt whether it would be considered evidence of a material kind.
11978. Mr. Hawthorne.] Supposing that a notice of that kind had been put up in large type, and in
English, so that the policeman could read it as he passed, say jn Goulburn-street, Wexford-stroet, or Lower
George-street, would that have entitled him to enter the premises for the purpose of investigation ? No ;
in that case he would have been a trespasser. The probability is that if he had seen a notice like that
you mention he would have said to the occupiers of the house, "Take that down, or I will prosecute you,"
and that the Chinamen, not knowing that he could not prosecute them for that would have taken it down
most probably. But there is no law to prohibit the posting of such notices on a man's premises.
11979. So that the matter would have stood where it is if the notices had been printed or written in
English instead of Chinese ? Yes.
11980. Mr. Abigail.'] Scarcely the same, I think. I understand you to admit that a knowledge of the
meaning of the notices would have stimulated the police in the execution of their duty. "I am now speaking
as regards the law ? Doubtless it would have stimulated the police to some extent.
11981. Could a tobacconist in the city put up a notice, " Totes run here r" He can if he likes — there is
no law to prevent him.
11982. It has been urged, also, by the shop-keepers in Lower G-eorge-street that their complaints and
representations have been treated in a very indifferent manner by the police ; and one Chinese witness
has stated that he went three or four times to the police station to give information that gambling was
being carried on in certain places, and that he was almost run out, and that he then went to the Inspector-
General of Police, who referred him to you ? Well, I should think I have had about a dozen come to
me at various times, and I have taken steps to obtain evidence in support of the representations which
have been made to me by them, but I have generally found that no sufficient evidence could be obtained, and
in several instances the men who have come to make these complaints, when inquired for, had disappeared,
and could not be found anywhere.
11983. Mr. Hawthorne.] You think in the majority of cases these Chinese informers have been moved to
give you information by reason of some row or dispute with their countrymen rather than from a high
sense of honour ? "Without exception, they have been men who have alleged that they lost money in
these dens.
11984. Mr. Abigail.] Have you had cases where a Chinaman has informed upon his next door neighbour,
with the object of getting him removed, in order to improve his (the complainant's) own business ? There
have been cases where we have suspected that, but in the absence of proof it would not be safe to
assert it. ,
11985. That is so far as the Chinese are concerned, but a portion of the question I put to you on this
subject in the first place had reference to complaints made by business people to the police. It is alleged
that such complaints or representations on the subject of Chinese gambling in the immediate vicinity of
their premises have been treated by the police with indifference, and sometimes in an offensive manner ?
All I can say is that they have not made any complaint to me in a single instance.
11986. Have not the business people there written to the Inspector-General of Police ? llecently, since
this Commission has been sitting. ;
11987. Not prior to that ? No ; I have no recollection of any complaint being referred to m'e by the
Inspector- General on the subject, as having emanated from the Europeans in Lower George-street or
elsewhere.
11988. Have there not been representations made to the effect that Inspector Atwill is not sufficiently
energetic in the discharge of his duties ? Recently there have been communications that would imply
that indirectly.
11989. Do you think it would be an advantage to change the men on duty in that division periodically?
I do not think so. The whole matter is in the hands of the officer in charge of the division.
11990. My question also refers to the men in charge of the division? Well, we have changed them in
days gone by, but no sensible advantage has been gained by doing it. In fact there is a very great
advantage in the officer being known to the inhabitants.
11991. Now, I will conclude my examination of you, Mr. Bead, by putting a question of a definite
character: During the thirty-six years experience you have had of the police in this city, what has been
the general character of the men you have associated with, and had under your control ? I think I may
say that the general character of the force has been absolutely good, and that it does not— so far as I
have had opportunities of judging — suffer by comparison with the London force, in which I have served,
and which I may say is supposed to be the model force of the world ; especially considering the dis-
advantage we have laboured under here of a too frequent change of men. This has been owing to tho
fact that the men have been able to better their position, and to obtain other employment ; the result
being that we have not the same proportion of experienced men here as they have in the London force.
But as regards their general conduct, that is, in sobriety, integrity, and attention to duty, as well as edu-
cation and ability, I believe they are not inferior to any police force in any European city.
11992. And during the whole of your service in the force here you have only known of one case in which
there was a shadow of suspicion or ground for a charge of corruption ? Only one case in which, as I
have stated, there appeared to be some slight ground for suspicion.
11993.
32-1 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Supt. Road. H993_4. Mr. Hawthorne.} I suppose the officers who would have to deal with the Chinese gamblers
inv^^iaoi Particularly would be meu who have seen many years service? Their rank would be evidence of that.
- OT> J ■ jf0 man ;s promoted to the charge of a division unless he has seen long service.
11995. You have not observed a desire for change in the case of men reaching the rank of sergeant?
They necessarily value the situation the more lucrative it becomes. It is more common among the men
who have served only a few years.
1199G. The men on the beat, I understand, have very little to do with the gamblers beyond paying visits
to their places occasionally when required to do so ? No policeman of any division takes action without
the approval of his superior officer, and the officers again have to submit the matter to me and obtain my
sanction before taking action. I see the officers of the Metropolitan District, as a rule, every morning at
10 o'clock, so that I am made acquainted with all that takes place during the preceding twenty-four hours.
11997. Before you admit men into the force do you require them to furnish testimonials as to previous
character? Yes ; they must produce satisfactory testimonials.
11998. From your knowledge of the general conduct of members of the police we may infer that they
would be unlikely to accept bribes from those with whom thoy have to deal in the discharge of their duty?
I am satisfied of that. But if they were wicked enough they would see that it would not bo politic —
because it must inevitably be discovered.
11999. Take No. 2 Division, in which Mr. Mackay laboured for a number of years ; — do you think Mr.
Mackay is the class of man who could be bribed by any person ? I am sure he would not. He is the very
antipodes of anything of the sort.
12000. And would the same remark apply to Mr. Atwill ? I am certain he would not be guilty of any-
thing of that nature.
12001. I suppose the No. 2 and No. 4 Divisions are the only divisions in the Metropolitan district in
which large numbers of Chinese are resident ? Yes ; the bulk of them are in those two divisions. There
are some in Waterloo.
12002. Can you say whether Acting Sub-inspector Lawless has always borne a good character ? Yes.
I have never known him to do anything wrong since he has been in the service. He was a sergeant in the
London Police before he came here.
12003. And has been a great number of years in the force here ? Yes. I suppose he must have been
twenty-six or twenty-seven years here now.
12004. I suppose we may also infer that Sub-Inspector Potter is a man of similar calibre to Inspector
Mackay and Inspector Atwill ? He is a man of integrity. I have every confidence in him myself.
12005. So that you have every reason to believe from your experience of all these men that the statements
which have been made about members of the police force being bribed, and so forth, are without
substantial foundation ? I am morally certain that there is not a scintilla of truth in any statement of
the kind that has been made.
12006. Had any report of improper conduct on the part of any of your officers, having a colour of truth
in it, been made, it would I suppose, as a matter of police business, have been brought under your notice?
Yes.
12007. And up to the present moment you have not been called upon to examine into any case of alleged
bribery or corruption against any member of the service ? No. The only case I know of I have mentioned,
and that was some years ago, in which there appeared to be some ground of suspicion.
12008. "Was that in regard to any particular phase of the Chinese question ? No. Our suspicions were
based upon the whole conduct of the man. We did not like his methods or associates.
12009. Was this person brought into direct contact with the Chinese ? No ; he had no duty to discharge
in connection with them at all.
12010. You have stated that when the higher officers of the police have gone to take out warrants for the
purpose of making raids upon Chinese gamblers, the information has leaked out in some way occasionally,
and I understood you to say that you thought it occurred through persons hanging about the Clerk of
Petty Sessions' Office overhearing; — is that the case ? There have been indications that the Chinese were
aware that warrants were being issued, and we could not see how the information could have been obtained
unless something had been overheard at the Police Court when the warrant was being applied for.
12011. Is there not a private room in which the Clerk of Petty Sessions is stationed, and could not the
officer wait until the room was perfectly clear ? The process is not applied for in the private room. The
officer goes into the " Long Eoom " where the information is filled in. The information is entered in a
book, and passes through two or three hands. There are always a number of clerks and others about,
and it is possible that it may have leaked out in that way.
12012. You think it possible that any information which has leaked out may not have gone through the
police force but through the office in which the warrants were obtained ? It is probable. I cannot say
it is so ; but it is probable.
12013. Supposing a raid were contemplated to-night or to-morrow night, how many of the police in the
particular division concerned would bo likely to know of it beforehand? The "officer in charge of the
division, and probably a couple of non-commissioned officers are all that would be likely to know at the
time.
12014. What would be the average of successful raids as compared with the failures ? I cannot say. There
have been failures, because when we have noticed that the Chinese have taken effectual precautions
against detection we have abstained from attempting to execute the warrants.
12015. You allow the warrants to remain in the station ? Yes ; there are a number of men now in
No. 4 station.
12016. President^] Have there been many such cases ? No ; not many.
12017. Mr. Hawthorne.'] What method would you suggest for more effectually dealing with the
Chinese in the matter of taking out warrants ? I think it would be better for the warrants to be made
out by the police themselves, and that could be brought about without any new regulations being made.
The Minister of Justice could direct the Clerk of Petty Sessions to supply us with the necessary forms
for such purpose.
12018. Have the police ever made any application to the Minister to give such directions ? I do not think
so, because this matter has only cropped up within the last year. Many years ago we were in the habit
of writing our own informations in matters in which secrecy was essential to succes.
12019.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 325
12019. How long ago is it since that became an obsolete practice? It is twelve or fourteen years ago Supfc. Read,
since it was discontinued. ,— — *— -s
12020. Do you think that would account for the better working of the police department that has been 19 Nov., 1891.
suggested as regards twelve or fourteen years ago, compared with the present time ? It might in some
degree, perhaps, but I cannot say that there has been any observable difference. It must be remembered
that the gambling carried on now is one hundredfold greater than it was fifteen or sixteen years ago.
1 was m charge of the northern end of the city when the Chinese first located themselves there, and they
rarely attempted gambling of any description then.
12021. Mr. Quong Tart.] There are two or three questions I should like to ask you, Mr. Eead : Do
you know what percentage of the Chinese gamble in this city ? I should think, so far as my observation
has gone, that at least four-sixths of the Chinese indulge in gambling. Imay say, however, that it is
extremely difficult sometimes, when you see them play, if one does not understand the game— and I must
confess 1 do not— to determine whether they are gambling or not.
12022. They play cards and dominoes and other games the same as Europeans at a card party, do they
not.^ I have stated that there is a great deal of play among the Chinese that resembles card-playing
among Europeans whon they meet together, and, just to give zest to the game, play for 3d. or 6d., as the
case may be. If you deprive the Chinese of this amusement they have nothing to employ their time
with. They have no interest in horse-racing, or boat-racing, or other sports which attract Europeans,
and they very rarely go to public places of amusement, or visit the gardens or parks. It seems almost
vital to their social existence.
12023. Tou think as long as they play cards or dominoes there is no harm in it, so long as they do not
play fan-tan and pak-ah-pu, which attracts so many to invest their shillings ? That, as I have said, is the
strongest objection to fan-tan playing, in my opinion— that a larrikin, or a labouring man, if hohas a shilling
in his pocket, can go into the Chinese quarters, where the game is being played, and have a couple of
games of fan-tan for his shilling. It resembles very nearly the game of " pitch and toss" that is played
by the troublesome youths of the city.
12024. If the Chinese assembled to play their game of fan-tan amongst themselves you would not con-
sider it so very objectionable? No more objectionable than the playing of cards by Europeans for 3d.
or 6d. a game. I should not be disposed to deprive them of the privileges which the Europeans enjoy.
12025. But that, I suppose, does not apply to the pak-ah-pu lottery that is patronised by the Europeans
as well as Chinese ? No.
12026. And your objection to fan-tan becomes stronger when the European element enters into it ? Yes ;
that is the principal objection I have to it. It is a sort of training for other and more serious descriptions
of gambling very frequently.
12027. "Would you consider it the duty of the police to be very active against the Chinese engaged in
fan-tan among their own people in their own houses ? I should think the most desirable thing would be
to purge it of its European element. As I have said here to-day, it is just as useless to attempt to put
a stop to fan-tan among the Chinese as it is to prevent drunkenness. There were 10,000 people arrested
last year for drunkenness, and I question whether it has cured one of them ; the penalty inflicted has no
deterring influence at all.
12028. Do you know that many poor Chinese who 'have gathered a little money by hard work to go
home to China have lost everything by going into these gambling-houses, and have committed suicide
in consequence ? I have no recollection of any Chinese committing suicide as the result of losing
money in a gambling-house ; it may have occurred. I desire to say here that I disapprove of all gambling
very strongly.
12029. Do you think there is much danger in pak-ah-pu ? I think it is a very demoralising game. It
affords every facility for a large number of Europeans to participate in it.
12030. Do you know how much they can win at that game ? No ; but I know it is considerable. I may
mention that it is a form of gambling in which the police can do very little, the Supreme Court having
decided that it is not an offence against our law. If it is anything it is a breach of the Lotteries Act.
We recently proceeded against the promoters of one of these lotteries under an Act of George III, and
obtained a conviction.
12031. You have not a high opinion of the Chinese informers, I believe ? They are invariably men who
have been gambling themselves, because they have always complained of losing considerable sums of
money. Some of them have said that they were storekeepers in the country. It has generally happened
that when we have wanted them to make use of in connection with prosecutions they could not be found.
Whether they were settled with by their countrymen, or simply abandoned the matter, I do not know.
12032. With regard to the sanitary arrangements — do you think some special provisions should be made
to ensure that the Chinese quarters should be properly looked after in that respect ? I think they are
well looked after, and, as I have already stated, I think there has been considerable improvement in their
sanitary conditions of late years, though whether that has been the result of contact with Europeans, or
from more rigorous enforcement of municipal sanitary laws, I do not know.
12033. Mr. Hawthorne. .] The police have no instructions from you to interfere with the sanitary arrange-
ments ;— you leave that to the municipal councils in which they reside? Yes ; but the Chinese quarters
could not'be in a bad sanitary condition without injuriously affecting the Europeans, and if we saw any-
thing exceptionally bad we should call the attention of the proper authorities to it.
12034. Mr. Abigail.] You know Constables Beadman and Carson, and ex-Constable Quealey ? Yes ; I
know them all.
12035. With reference to Constables Beadman and Carson, what would you say as to their general
character ? They are well-conducted men.
12036. It has been stated in evidence here that the charges of bribery which have been made do not affect
the whole of the force, but that they are confined to four individuals, namely, Inspector Atwill, Constables
Carson, Beadman, and Quealey ? 1 have perfect confidence in the integrity of every one of those men.
12037. Constable Quealev was dismissed for drunkenness ? Yes ; recently.
12038. Did nothing ever come under your notice affecting the character of any one of these men ? Not
the slightest thing, on any occasion, affecting their general honesty and uprightness.
[The witness withdrew.]
IBID AY,
3-6 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
FRIDAY, 20 NOVEMBER, 1891.
present:—
The Mayor of Sydney (Me. Alderman MANNING-, J. P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P, Vice-President.
iLVMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. Edmund "Wollcott Fosbery called in and examined : —
Mr. Fosbery. 12039. FresiJenl] You are the Inspector-General of Police for the Colony? Yes; Inspector-General
2(rw*~A~'ixcn °^ ^>onco ^or -^ew South "Wales.
JOJNov., 1891. 12010. How long have you been Inspector-General ? For seventeen years.
12041 . And previously to that ? I was Deputy Inspector-General for thirteen years.
12042. Has your attention been directed to a deputation that waited upon the then Colonial Secretary in
July last with regard to the prevention of Chinese gambling ? Yes ; I saw the account of it, and I also
had an interview with the Premier upon the subject.
12043. And I suppose that you travestied the charges made by the deputation against the police ? Oh,
no ; I did not. I said that I should like to see an independent investigation into the matter in order to
let daylight into it, whatever it was.
12044. And, as a consequence, I suppose this Commission was appointed by the Colonial Secretary ?
Yes ; I suppose so.
12045. So that it really was upon your own suggestion that this investigation was begun ? _ "Well, I
cannot say that. I dd not know whether Sir Henry Parkes would have appointed the Commission of his
own accord or not.
12046. But, as a matter of fact, you did suggest it ? I did think so.
12047. Then, after that, did you call for any reports from any of your officers — particularly the officer in
charge of the Lower George-street district ? I have had reports periodically, but I do not think that I
called for any, especially on that account.
12048. You left it to the Commission ? I left it for the Commission.
12049. Previous to the deputation waiting upon Sir Henry Parkes, had your attention been called to the
number of Chinese gambling-houses in that part of the city? Oh, yes, frequently ; I have had my
attention drawn to it on one occasion by the leading Chinese residents, who expressed themselves
extremely anxious that this gambling amongst their countrymen should be suppressed.
12050. What standpoint did they view the matter from ;— -did they consider it an evil affecting the
country at large or only their own countrymen ? They considered it a blot upon the character of their
fellow-countrymen, and asked that means might be taken to put it down, offering themselves to assist in
its suppression.
12051. Did they tell you that it was spreading amongst Europeans ? They did not.
12052. But, as a matter of fact, their action was taken in consequence of the evil amongst their own
countrymen ? That is so.
12053. After that did you issue any special instructions with regard to the Chinese gambling-houses ? I
am in personal communication with the three principal officers daily — that is, with the Superintendent of
the Metropolitan Division, the Superintendent of the country district, and the chief of detectives. They
report to me every morning, and I give them instructions upon a number of things, and no doubt in
connection with various other matters I spoke to them about the question of Chinese gambling ; but,
as far as I recollect, the instructions were general that the police shonld, as far as practicable, do what
they could to put a stop to it.
12054. In fact you urged the various officers to take the necessary action to minimise the evil ? Yes.
12055. Did they make any observations to you on the subject then or at any subsequent time ? Of
course we discussed the impediments in the way of a thorough enforcement of the law — the difficulties
that present themselves in a variety of ways, and the position generally ; but I cannot remember every-
thing that transpired in the course of our conversation.
12056. I will now, Mr. Fosbery, get you to briefly put before us the state of the law in relation to the
matter, and to point out the difficulties against which you have to contend. In the first place you might
shortly explain what your powers are, and then afterwards tell us what are the difficulties in the way ?
"Well, I do not think that I could cover the whole ground satisfactorily on the spur of the moment. I
should have to refer to the law books to speak with certainty on the matter. Even lawyers do not like,
as you are aware, to give legal opinions without reference to their books, and I am not a lawyer.
12057. I thought that possibly you might be able to give us a rough general idea ? "Well, generally speaking,
the difficulty is that you must proceed by laying an information before a magistrate, and obtain a warrant
to authorise you to take proceedings.
12058. That is to say to break into a gambling-house ? Yes, to make a forcible entrance where that is
necessary ; and a further difficulty is the proof of the kind of gambling that is carried on. The Supreme
Court for instance have held that pak-ah-pu is not gambling within the meaning of the Act. The diffi-
culties are no greater than in enforcing the law in any other direction against criminality, but it is
possible to enlarge the powers of the police to enable them, or certain of them, superior officers down to
a given grade, to enter at once and arrest at sight, and in that way take more summary means of bringing
the offenders to justice, but whether it would be, all things considered, advisable to alter the tenor of the
law in this direction as regards the Chinese only is a larger question.
12059. A question, you mean, more for the legislature ? More for the Government and the legislature.
12060. But, as a matter of fact, to bring about convictions in the case of pak-ah-pu there is no need of a
forcible entry at all ? No ; the principals in the game of pak-ah-pu can be proceeded against for running
a lottery.
12061. And you have taken proceedings against them on that score, have you not ? Yes, there have been
a good many prosecutions, but it is not for me to say that there might not have been more, or that there
might not have been more vigour shown in the matter.
12062.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MTNUTES OE EVIDENCE.
327
12062 In the matter of Chinese gambling generally ? Yes ; hut it is well to consider this : We have a Mr" F?sber7-
limited number of police, and every now and then public attention is awakened to some particular social ^C^^,
evil It may be gambling on the turf ; or street disorder by larrikins, or prostitution, or suburban house L '- P '+*
robberies, or a variety of other things; and then the newspapers and the public say, " Why don't the
^ m0r° ?-" • r>eoPle forSct however that the police have their regular routine of duty to perform,
and that whilst it is possible to afford a very large increase in the number of men engaged in any particular
work that can only be effected by taking them away from other duties, and, therefore, whilst it would not
be correct tor me to say that there might not have been a great deal more vigour displayed in stamping out
Chinese gambling or any other species of criminality which it is the duty of the police to suppress, it
should not be forgotten that generally if you focus the strength of the force in one direction you deprive
it ot corresponding strength in another.
12063. As a matter of fact, you do not mean to admit that there has been a lack of vigour in the manner
in which the police have dealt with Chinese gambling ? Oh, I think that it has received reasonable atten-
tion from the police. I may perhaps say that Chinese gambling is very nearly related to the question of
gambling generally, and we are all aware that gambling of every description has increased to an alarming
extent during the last few years. It is not, therefore, when you look at the question in all its bearings
very surprising that Chinese gambling should have increased.'
12064. If the Chinese gambling-houses were only places of resort for the Chinese themselves to game in
their comparatively small way the police would not consider it a very pressing matter ;-~they would not
consider that they should take the strength of their force from somewhere else for the sake of suppressing
the evil m that locality ? Well, in my younger days when I was a Superintendent of Police, I knew a
great deal more about the Chinese, from personal inspection, than I do at the present time ; my conclusion
was that they were amongst themselves almost wholly addicted to petty gambling, and that it was seldom
absent from their amusements. There is no doubt that the Chinese are a gambling race, and we are fast
becoming so ourselves. I may say that I personally think that so long as youthful Europeans— and,
indeed, Europeans generally — do not resort to the "Chinese gambling saloons, the public injury arising
from them is not so great as that caused by many other forms of gambling. Tou must remember that the
stakes played for by the Chinese are usually extremely small.
12065. Mr. McKillopi] Is that an inducement, do you think? An inducement for them to gamble, do
you mean ?
12066. Yes ; — particularly for youthful Australians to take part in their games ? Well, it is a facility.
12067. Mr. Hawthorne.'] I suppose we are to infer from that remark that the evil is not a very great one,
as the stakes are not so large as in European gambling? Oh, I should certainly say that the greater the
chance of loss the greater the injury arising from gambling.
12068. President.'] At all events, if the gaming was confined to the Chinese, and the temptation to
Europeans to indulge in it was small, you are of opinion that the police would be under a less serious
obligation to interfere with it than with the gambling that is actually carried on amongst Europeans ?
Well, it would not call for as much attention from the police as many other places of gambling.
12069. Talking of pak-ah-pu, I understood you to say that prosecutions had. been instituted against it,
and that they had proved the law to be defective ? Yes ; pak-ah-pu was proved not to be gambling in all
the Games and Wagers Act, but it can be reached under an old Act as a lottery.
12070. Oh, it can be reached as a lottery ; — but the prosecutions taken by you failed ? They were
quashed by the Supreme Court.
12071. But were there not other cases in which the prosecutions succeeded; — I refer particularly to some
cases heard before Judge Backhouse in March, this year ? That may be so. At the present moment I
do not recollect the case to which you allude.
12072. The principals in the game submitted to the decision without appeal ? That may be ; but of
course, if they submitted without appeal, it does not affect the question. The decision recorded in that
instance might be over-ridden by a judgment of the Supreme Court.
12073. President^ Have you discussed with your officers the question of how it would be possible to
prevent Europeans visiting these gambling-places ? Yes ; I have frequently ; because during recent
years the evil has greatly increased.
12074. And what did the officers say in reply ? Oh, they admitted the extent of the evil, and said that
they had directed their energies to the places that were most frequently visited by Europeans.
12Q75. You know, of course, that there have been prosecutions ? Yes.
12076. Did they represent to you that there was great difficulty in making the raids ? Yes ; inasmuch
as they have to get warrants before they can enter the gambling-houses.
12077. I am referring more particularly to physical difficulties ; — did they ever say that they were exposed
tp the danger of injury at the hands of the Chinamen ? No.
12078. Did they never say to you that there were special difficulties in the way of getting in a Chinese
gamhling-house, because of the necessity of climbing in over walls, or through windows, and in some
cases, even letting themselves down through holes in the ceilings ? Oh, those difficulties exist in all
places where gaming is carried on ; but no doubt the Chinese take every precaution to prevent a raid
being successfully carried out.
12079. Mr. Hawthorne.] If a raid be contemplated by one of your officers, does he consider that i]t is
necessary to inform you beforehand ? No, certainly not. There are 20,000 arrests made in Sydney
every year, and my personal cognisance is confined to cases which I think it necessary (by reason of their
importance) to give personal attention to.
12080. So that your personal cognisance of these raids would be confined to what you saw in the morning
papers ? Not necessarily ; because the officers would probably mention the matter in connection with a
number of other things. They are always reporting something or other ; indeed, as I have said, I am in
daily communication with them, and it is most likely that I should hear about particular raids. What I
said was that it was not incumbent upon an officer who contemplated a raid to mention the matter to me
before carrying out his plans.
12081. President^ Did the police tell you that the Chinese gambling-houses, particularly those in Lower
George-street, were frequented by Europeans of all classes ? They said that they were frequented by
Europeans, but not by Europeans of all classes.
12082.
32S ('HIKES]-, fJAMBLrvt; fOMMfSSTOV — MINUTES OF ETIUEXCE.
Mr. Fosbery. 12082. ])o you know that the police were charged with accepting bribes for.-the purpose of conniving at
<^ fTX these breaches of the law on the part of Chinese gambling- house proprietors. Did you read this state-
20 Nov., 1891. ment ma(Je ^ the deputation that waited upon Sir Henry Parkes, for example ? Yes, I did; but I do
not see very well how it would be worth while for the Chinese gambling-house keepers to bribe a police-
man on his beat who would have nothing to do with the instituting of raids.
120S3. If these bribes were bestowed on the police they would have to be given to one of the officers iu
order to make them at all effective ? Yes ; to one of the officers in charge of a division or a district.
12084. But still, you thought it worth while to ask Sir Henry Parkes, when Colonial Secretary, to appoint
an independent Commission of Inquiry into the matter ? The only thing I said to Sir Henry Parkes
(and I also said it to a member of this Commission) was that my desire was that there should be an
independent investigation so that the atmosphere should be cleared.
12085. And you personally refrained from making any inquiry ? Oh, certainly.
12086. Would you explain to the Commission how you make tho appointments of the policemen in
Lower George-street ? That is done by the superintendent and the divisional officers. The constables
are changed from one part of the city to another as the necessity of the case requires.
12087. Would it come to your knowledge if constables were anxious to be employed in Lower George-
street in preference to any other part of the city ? Oh, I think it would be a very unlikely thing that I
should hear anything about it.
12088. If any of the constables or officers put forth special exertions in order to receive appointments in
Lower George-street in preference to any other part of the city you do not think you would be likely to
hear of it ? If any of the officers did I should certainly know of it, because I make the appointment of
officers myself ; and if a policeman was to apply for any particular beat I hope that the matter would be
brought before me as a very serious thing, considering that there would probably be some underhand
reason for it.
12089. Then it would be the duty of the officer to inform you of it? Certainly.
12090. And he would fail in his duty if he did not notice that a number of constables were desirous of
being appointed to a particular beat ? He would be a very inefficient officer if he did not see through it,
and deal with it accordingly.
12091. Are the sergeants appointed by you also ? No ; they are appointed by the Superintendent.
12092. If a sergeant showed a strong preference for any particular beat, Mr. Eead would deal with his
request with suspicion? Yes, and would probably make a report of it to me, feeling that I ought to be
made personally aware of the matter.
12093. Is Lower George-street, as far as you are aware, from a policeman's standpoint, a desirable
beat ? No.
12094. So that it would be a peculiarly suspicious circumstance if a number of men in the force evinced
a desire to be transferred from other beats in the metropolitan area to that one ? Yes ; I should
think so.
12095. Are sub-inspectors appointed without your knowledge ? No sub-inspector could be placed anywhere
without my special approval.
12096. Was there ever any application on the part of anyone in the force, so far as you are aware, for a
position in the Lower George-street district ? Certainly not. Members of the force go where they are
sent. I never knew a man apply for any particular locality.
12097. So that, although it was stated by various members of the deputation that there was a desire
amongst the men of the police force to go to Lower George-street, you would not think that it was a
fact ? I should consider it most improbable.
12098. I suppose you do not consider it your duty to interfere with the private affairs of your men or
officers ? Not unless it is a matter that appears to me to affect their probity or character.
12099. If you were informed that some of your officers in Lower George-street were acquiring property
would you consider it a matter of importance to know how they were acquiring the property ? I should
be very glad to think that they had been so saving. There have been many means by which a constable even
might secure a freehold by saving and fortunate speculation.
12100. Mr. Abigail.'] But a terrace — a terrace of several houses ? Oh, there have been many means by
which a constable might acquire a terrace even — land booms and speculations.
12101. President. .] At all events, would you think it your duty to inquire into the matter ? Not unless
I thought there was something suspicious about it. I know some constables who have acquired what
might be called a terrace of houses, and I know the way in which they have got the money, and it has
been got most honestly.
12102. Does the acquirement .of property apply principally to Lower George-street? No; not particu-
larly. I do not know anything specially about the wealth of the men in the Lower George-street district.
You see constables are very well paid. A single man can save £60 a year, and if he likes to put it into
a building society, in the course of time he may find himself in the possession of a terrace of houses,
worth £1,200.
12103. With regard to alterations in the law. can you make any suggestions ? You might have a drastic
measure which would cover gambling of all kinds, except gambling on' the Stock Exchange, but whether
it is the intention of tho legislature to go to that length is a matter that I cannot even conjecture. I
think that it is highly improbable.
12104. Mr. Abigail!] Do you not think it would be an immense public benefit to have a drastic measure
dealing with gambling generally ? I am perfectly certain that if such a measure were passed it would
enable us to deal with gambling to some extent, but it would never lead to a decrease in the evil generally.
12105. Mr. Hawthorne.~\ Then do you think that legislation is altogether unnecessary ? No ; I do not
go to that length at all. There are some kinds of gambling — the totalizator for instance — that has become
an open invitation even to Chinese to gamble, and that has become a great evil and could be put down by
law ; but I am convinced that if two men have a desire to gamble aud have two coins in their pockets
they will if necessary go into a corner and " toss,'' and you would never stop that. In former years, as is
very well known, there were in Sydney several schools of gamblers, and it was also very well known that
they gamed for large amounts, but they did it in different places — in back rooms, on quays, in private
houses — anywhere where they could get their little circle together. That is private gambling, and that
can never be suppressed by legislation.
12106.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 329
12106. But now we have entered into an area of public gambling " tote-shops, fan-tan dens, and pak-ah-pu Mr. Fosbery.
lottery-houses?" My reason of saying what I have done about totalizators is that I believe they are > *— ^
demoralising the youth of the Colony, who are invited to put money on them, and that is a form of 2<> Nov., 1891.
gambling that is increasing every day. The prosecutions have been to my mind utterly inefficacious ; but of
course you, Mr. Mayor, are perfectly aware that more money changes at Band wick on a big race day than
in these small places in a whole year.
12107. Mr. McKillop.] But it seems to me that the evil of the minor forms of gambling lies in the fact
that the sums for which it is possible to play are so small that young people who would never think of
going out to Eandwick are by means of totalizators, fan-tan houses, and pak-ah-pu banks drawn into the
vortex of gambling mania ? The forms of gambling to which you refer are undoubtedly a temptation to
children and particularly objectionable on that account.
12108. President.'] Prom what we have gathered from the evidence of your officers, it seems that thev are
of opinion that the law is unnecessarily complicated, and farther that it would be possibleto simplify 'it in
a variety of ways ? Of course some police officers look upon the law as something that should be made so
elastic that a prosecution would follow the laying an information as a matter of course, but he forgets
that the law-framer has to proceed on legislative lines, judicious in their whole bearing, and cannot
therefore pass Acts of Parliament that would give a policeman powers equal to a judge of the Supreme Court.
12109. Then if some of your officers have stated that it would be desirable to hold property-owners liable
for the gaming that is carried on in the shops owned by them, do you think that that would be impolitic
and unwise ? I think that it would be going too far. In fact 1 rather look with extreme suspicion upon
enlarging the powers (already in some instances perhaps too great) that are entrusted to the police.
12110. If any of your officers suggested to the Commission that the presence of a fan-tan table and other
gambling implements in a house should be in itself sufficient evidence to secure a conviction against the
occupant of the house, would you think that an unwise suggestion? As the law stands, I should consider
the presence of gambling implements a very valuable piece of evidence.
12111. But not in itself sufficient to procure a conviction ? Not without corroborative evidence.
12112. If any of your officers had advised that the mere presence of a man in a gaming-house should be
sufficient to convict him of being there with the intent of gambling, or as having gambled, would you
consider that an unwise or unpolitic suggestion ? I should consider that it was going too far.
12113. But supposing that the person was there habitually ? I should always be afraid of throwing the
onus probandi of innocence upon an accused person. It is contrary to the whole tenor British law.
12114. Mr. Abigail.'] Is it not contrary to the law that a person should be in a gambling-house at all?
No ; he may be there for lawful purposes.
12115. Mr. Hawthorne^] Supposing that a man was there at the time a raid was made, wrould that be
enough to convict him ?. I should be very sorry to see a man who chanced to be in a gambling-house at
the time a raid was made convicted because he happened to be there when the raid was made. He might
be there for the purpose of making a purchase, or tor any other legal purpose.
12116. President.] Some of your officers and some other people have contended that the mere presence
of a person in a gambling-house should be sufficient to secure a conviction against him ? I can only say
that I do not agree with them.
12117. Mr. Abigail.] And do you not think that the presence of a person in a gambling-house should be
sufficient to warrant a prosecution r I am not prepared to go that length. The weight of evidence
should decide the case.
12118. President.] Have you made the law, as it affects gambling-houses, a study ? I have given it
attention in connection with the whole of the statute law that I have to understand.
12119. But I mean particular attention ? I have not given any special attention to it over and above
other branches of the statute law, but I know it generally.
12120. Tou are aware that if a number of persons are found in a gambling-house your officers cannot
take any action except by summonses ? They would detain them until they had procured their names and
addresses and then summon them afterwards.
12121. Very often they give wrong names ? Yes ; just as Europeans do.
12122. "Well, do you not think that the law could be amended there ? I think that they might be
detained until they gave satisfactory bail or evidence of their place of residence.
12123. Do you not think that the necessity for a summons in these cases might with advantage be
abolished in favour of arrest ? Tes ; I think that it might be.
12124. Have you instructed your officers, with regard to the Chinese generally, to visit them and see
what their habits are ? No ; that is no part of their duty to study their racial habits. Some years ago
I was the means of getting a Commission appointed, of which I recommended that Mr. Quong Tart should
be made a member, in order to furnish the Government with information with regard to the conditions
of life and residence of the Chinese in the Colony, and the report of that Commission was laid before
Parliament. ,
12125. But is not the duty of the police in a district to make themselves thoroughly acquainted with the
habits of the people in that district ? A policeman is supposed to make himself acquainted with the
habits of every resident.
12126. Supposing he saw that the Chinese -dwellings were not in a good sanitary condition, would he not
have to acquaint the authorities with that fact ? Oh, certainly ; one of his regulations tells him that he
must do so. He has to report upon anything injuriously affecting the health or welfare of the public
generally. .
12127. Have any complaints been made to you with regard to opium-smoking ? Yes, occasionally;
indeed I have been round to the different places to judge for myself on that point.
12128. Has it ever been represented to you that the Chinese had induced women of easy virtue and
children who are supposed to be pure to enter their houses for the purpose of opium-smoking? Oh,
repeated charges of that kind have been made, but in nearly every case it was found, upon investigation,
that the women were of such an age that the police had no powers of interference.
12129. Have reports ever been made to you to the effect that girls of tender years have been inveigled
into the Chinamen's houses, when there induced to smoke opium, and then, when in an unconscious state,
polluted by the Chinamen ? Yes ; reports of that kind have been made, but I cannot charge my mind
with a single case in which it was found, after careful inquiry, that they were under 1G years of age.
272—2 T 12130.
330 CHIXESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. Fosbery. 12130. Are you aware that there are European women living amongst Chinamen in various parts of the
<^^*~» city, particularly in Wexford-street, Stephen-street, and Exeter-place ? Yes ; and I think it is a very
20 Nov., 1891. lamentable thing that European women should be made common to a number of Chinamen as they are.
12131. But do you not think that they must have been bad women previously ? Oh, yes ; because some
of them have told me that they have gone of their own free will, and for the first time in their lives have
been treated kindly by the men with whom they cohabit. The Chinese almost invariably treat these
women well.
12132. If it was alleged that the Chinese have been in the habit of ruining a number of young girls,
leading them on by means of presents of various kinds, until they reached the lowest depths of degrada-
tion, you would not be inclined to believe it ? Most certainly not. I do not believe that the Chinese
would have the power of seducing any young girls who were pure. I can hardly believe that they would
attempt it.
12133. You have never had reports on this question from your police officers ? I have had numbers of
reports, but the charges were mostly found to be baseless, the women being too old to interfere with.
12131. Did the baseless reports come from your own officers? Oh, they would come from a variety of
sources.
12135. But you have had no startling reports of that kind from your own officers ? Not that I
remember.
12136. It would be their duty to report to you if they discovered anything of that sort? Yes ; and no
doubt they would have done so. ,
12137. Particularly with regard to Wexford-street and G-oulburn street ? Oh, it would have been their
dutv to have reported the matter at once, wherever it had occurred.
12138. But you do not remember having had any reports to the effect that these young women had been
seduced into any of these opium dens. It has been alleged, as I have said, that the Chinese are in the
habit of enticing young girls into their dens, inviting them to smoke opium, and then effecting their ruin ?
I should think it very probable that there have been such cases.
12139. Have you ever heard of any from your officers ? I cannot recollect any particular case. •
12140. Would you have heard of them if there had been any cases of that kind ? Not necessarily. The
matter may have been silenced by money. A woman may be so degraded that she would sell her own
offspring, but it does not follow that the police would hear anything about it, so that we could prosecute.
12141. But if the Chinese were successful in getting a number of women into their clutches it would come
to the knowledge of your officers, and they would report the matter as being of public interest ? Yes ;
they certainly would.
12142. And, 'as a matter of fact, you never have had such reports? Oh, there may have been some.
12143. But certainly not a number ? No.
12144. Then, if any cases of the kind had happened they would be isolated cases ? Yes. Of course it
may happen that the Chinese have been concerned in some disorderly houses, out of which girls had been
taken.
12145. Mr. Anderson was in charge of the Lower Greorge-strfeet district in 1873, 1 believe ? He was in
charge of it for some time before he came to the Central.
12146. Do you remember if he ever made any reports to you concerning the Chinese in his division ?
He made the reports, no doubt, that his duty required him to do, very faithfully, but I do not know that
there was anything exceptional about them.
12147. Do you know that he was in the habit of visiting the Chinese dens, then, for the purpose of sup-
pressing the gambling that went on in them ? I think that he ought to have done so, and I have no
doubt that he did.
12148. Do you know that as a matter of fact, he used to constantly disperse the Chinese when they were
assembled for the purpose of gambling ? I did not know that he was in the habit of doing so more
vigorously than any other officer in his position would have done. All the police do so at times. They
sometimes exceed the powers that are given to them by law by threatening ill-conducted people that if
they do not clear out they will compel them to. '
12149. I suppose you cannot charge your mind with any particulars of Mr. Anderson's inspectorship ?
I do not remember anything arising out of it with regard to the Chinese gambling-houses particularly.
12150. But if his efforts were very successful in the suppression of Chinese gambling, could not similar
efforts be put forth now ? I am not aware that he was more successful in his efforts than the inspector
who is now in charge of the district.
12151. It is said that with no more legal power than any other police inspector enjoys he visited these
dens very frequently, and by frightening the gamblers minimised the evil very much ; Mr. Anderson was
succeeded in the district by Mr. Atwill, should he not have done the same ? Mr. Atwill is a faithful
officer, and I presume that he fulfils his duties in much the same way that Mr. Anderson did.
12152. Of course he may have discharged his duty according to his own lights, but two officers may
have different policies ; — Mr. Anderson seems to have made it his duty to institute these frequent
visitations? I dare say he did, but I have no recollection of the matter.
12153. Do you not think that if constant visitations were made by Mr. Atwill it would diminish the evil ?
I think that all police officers should take special notice of this'gaming, and I believe they do.
12154. Well, if they visited them (say) three times a week, would that not have the effect of driving away
the customers ? Oh, I think they should prosecute and put a stop to it in that way.
12155. But do you not think that the visitations would have much the same effect as the prosecu-
tions ? I dare say they would do good, but not to the same extent.
12156. But would not the Europeans be afraid of being shown up ? Yes ; no doubt.
12157. Well, then, should not your officers go into these gambling-houses if only for the sake of clearing
the Europeans out of them ; — we have it in evidence that whenever the police do make their appearance
there is an immediate stampede ? Yes ; the object of the police is to visit all places where they think
there is likely to be a breach of the law. A constable's duty is to prevent the breach of the law as much
as to secure the punishment of the offender when the law is broken.
12158. Still, if Mr. Atwill attempted to get into any of the Chinese gaming-houses, would he not be denied
admission ? I dare say he would. An Englishman's house is his castle.
12159. You know that Mr. Anderson went in without warrants ? I do not know what Mr. Anderson did
in that respect. 12160.
■CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES 0? EVIDENCE. 331
12160. We are informed so ? "Well, I can walk into the Town Hall, but I can be ejected if I am not Mr. Fosbery.
wanted. You may go into any place if you can get in — there is nothing criminal in that — but you have ' --""- — •»
not the power to remain in if you are told to go out. " 20Nov., 1891.
12161 Do you not think that any house suspected of being a gambling-house should be liable to be
entered by the police without a warrant ? Not by any constable. I think that that is a power that might
be wisely conferred on sergeants or sub-inspectors.
12162. You would be in favour of an alteration in the law to that effect, then ? Yes.
12163. Then that power would apply to the whole of the police over the whole of the Colony, and anv-
body s house could be entered in the same way if it was suspected of being a gambling-house? Oh,' I
thought you were speaking of the Chinese.
12164. No, I am referring to the desirability of bestowing more extensivo powers upon tho police for the
suppression of gambling generally ? If you gave such powers to a police sergeant he could walk into any
club or any private house where you were having a rubber of whist.
12165. Supposing you restricted those powers to police sergeants in regard to the houses occupied by
Chinese only, they could then walk into any Chinese merchant's house ? Yes; but you must remember
that the police officer must have very good reason for suspecting the house, or else he could not take
any action.
12160. At all events, you are distinctly of opinion that you would not bestow these powers upon the
police as a body ? No ; I should certainly restrict them to officers above a certain grade.
12167. But if they were exercised with discretion they might be given without fear of results ? I think
that the mere possession of such power by subordinate officers would be too great an infringement of the
liberty of the subject.
12168. Have you ever had any reports made to you with regard to neglect of duty on the part of any of
your men, with regard to the Chinese in Lower George-street ? Well, I had to punish and dismiss a
good many men at one time and another, but I hardly know the kind of neglect of duty you refer to.
12169. Well, we will put it first on the ground of inefficiency. Have you ever had to dismiss any men
in the Lower George-street district for inefficiency ? Probably.
12170. Have you ever had to dismiss a man because it was proved that he neglected his duty with regard
to the suppression of gambling, particularly amongst the Chinese residents of Lower George-street ?
Not to my recollection.
12171. And the same answer applies to other parts of the city, where the Chinese reside in considerable
numbers, I presume ? Many hundreds of men have been dismissed by me, and of course I cannot
recollect what they were dismissed for.
12172. But not for taking bribes ? I cannot remember a single instance of a policeman taking bribes.
Of course J. have heard a good deal about police officers taking bribes ; but I cannot charge my memory
with a single instance in which a charge of that nature has been substantiated.
12173. Have you heard anything about the way in which Mr. Atwill discharges his duties under the
Licensing Act ? Yes; I have had complaints about it.
12174. What was the nature of the complaints ? Well; it has teen said that he has been too strict with
the licensees, that he has pushed his way in, and spoken roughly and so on.
12175. That he has been too exacting in the discharge of his duties against the publicans ? Yes.
12176. You never heard that he asked the licensees for presents of money? No ; he would not occupy
his present position if he did.
12177. And what is more, no insinuation has ever been made to that effect ? No ; never to my knowledge
against his probity ; sometimes against his judgment, but never against his probity.
12178. What is your opinion about Mr. Atwill an an officer? I consider that he is not always judicious
in his speech and bearing ; but I believe that he is an honorable upright officer.
12179. Have you had any communication addressed to you by the Anti-Chinese Gambling League? I
think that I have had several ; but I do not know what they were about.
12180. They were not sufficiently important to impress them on your memory ? No.
12181. Mr. Abigail."} Mr. Fosbery, you have given us a record of seventeen years as Inspector-General,
and thirteen years as Deputy Inspector-General. That is thirty years, and previously to that you had ten
years' service in Victoria I believe, so that you must be intimately conversant with the duties of the police ? ,
Yes ; I think I know as much as most officers about .police duties.
12182. The President has examined you generally, but I am going to put very definite questions to you,
bearing upon what was said at the deputation to Sir Henry Parkes by men of very prominent public
positions to enable you to give your version of it. Do you know how many reputed Chinese gambling-
places there are in Lower George-street ? No ; I do not.
12183. Would you be surprised to learn that within the last few years they have been increased from ten
to twenty ? I should not be in the least surprised.
12L84. Would you be surprised to know that hundreds of European youths and men, and sometimes
girls, as far as the pak-ah-pu places are concerned, visit these Chinese gambling-dens ? If it were only
hundreds out of a population of 400,000, I think I should be surprised.
12185. Has it ever come beneath your notice that there is a wide-spread feeling among the European
business people in that part of the city that the increase is solely the result of neglect on the
part of the police to perform then1 proper duties ? Oh, I know that people generally blame the police for
everything that goes wrong. I am not surprised to hear that.
12186. It is reported that a raid is made once every two years, and is successful, and it is said that it is
just as easy to make a raid once every three months ? I do not think that there is any fixed date for
making raids.
12187. There might be a raid made once every year, but reputable business people have stated that the
gambling is openly carried on every day of the week, Sunday included, and that people passing up and
down the street can see it, so that it must be seen by the police, and yet they take no steps to check it ?
I think that must be incorrect, because a great many prosecutions have taken place.
12188. Are you aware that the Chinese in Lower George-Btreet, Goulburn-street, Campbell-street, and
Wexford-street, have public notices posted up outside their places to the effect that fan-tan gambling is
carried on within, night and day ? I have heard so.
12189. Should not those notices make the police pay more attention to the places outside which they are
posted ? In Chinese characters ? 12190.
332 CHINESE UAMBLT5G COMMISSION — MINTTKS OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. Fosbery. 1:2190. Yes? Well, a constable passing up and down on his beat, would probably never notice a placard
/— -^— — v in Chinese characters, but even if he did, and reported the matter to his superior officer, the fact that the
20 Nov., 1891. notices were put up would not constitute an offence.
12191. But supposing I was a tobacconist in the city, and posted up a notice outside my shop to the effect
that gambling was carried on within, would the police take no action in the matter ? They would probably
keep an eye upon you.
12192. Quite so ; and it is urged that the police ought, in consequence of the notices, to have been more
vigilant? Well, that is a matter for you to judge of. As I said at the commencement of my evidence,
it was always possible for the police to display more vigour in any given direction bj concentrating their
energy upon some particular question.
12193. Mr. Hawthorne^] But then, if they showed more vigour in the prosecution of Chinese gamblers
you say that they would have to neglect other duties ? We are always short-handed, so that if some
Ihings get special attention, others get less than usual.
1 2194. Mr. Abigail.] It has been stated also that the police can do nothing as the law now stands ?
Well if that has been said by the police I should think that it was an ignorant policeman who said it.
12195. Quite so ; the fact that they have made raids and secured convictions is in itself an answer to
it ? Yes.
12196. Do you think that fines are a sufficient punishment for the keepers of these fan-tan houses ? No ;
I have always thought both with regard to European and Chiuese gambling that if fines have no effect, as
it is a lucrative business, there will have to be recourse to imprisonment.
12197. If a man was brought up live times, and fined on each occasion, and always without effect, do you
think that a fine would be a sufficient punishment for the sixth offence ? Certainly not. The law
recognises a gradation of crime, according to the frequency of its repetition.
12198. It has been alleged that European youths can play, particularly at the Lower George-street
gambling-dens, for very small amounts ; — does not that add to the seriousness of the evil ? Yes; as I
said at the beginning of my evidence, the evil is aggravated by the fact that the young are seduced into
playing, but you must remember that you can put 2s. 6d. on a tote.
12199. Yes ; but you can play fan-tan if you have only a penny ? Yes.
12200. Has it ever been brought under your notice that a number of working men have lost the whole of
their wages at the fan-tan tables in Lower Greorge-street, and that their wives and families have been left
in a starving condition as the result of it ? I have no knowledge of it, but I think that it is extremely
probable. That applies pretty much to gambling of all kinds. Families are ruined by it, and women and
children compelled to go without food or clothing.
12201. It has been alleged that if the Chinese can get Europeans to gamble with them they will not play
amongst themselves ? I was not aware of that.
12202. And it is stated further that they have men stationed in the streets as touts to invite passers-by
1o go in. Would you believe that there are 400 Chinese making large sums of money by keeping gambling-
establishments ? T should not be at all surprised to hear it.
] 2203. Now, here are some photographs of Chinese gambling-houses in Lower George-street. The white
paper notices stuck up outside the walls are to the effect that gambling is carried on there day and night,
and wre have had evidence to the effect that all day long, and far into the night, as well as on Sundays,
there are always to be found crowds of men inside playing fan-tan, and often boys, and sometimes even
girls, purchasing pak-ah-pu tickets ; — do you not think that, as far as the law stands, it is in the power of
the police to keep the places clear of Europeans by frightening them away ? I have no doubt that a police
warning in a matter of that kind would have a good effect, even although it had no legal significance.
12204. It has been said that the police are afraid to interfere because these houses are, many of them,
owned by Members of the Legislative Council, and other persons of influence ? Oh, I do not think that
the Legislative Council exercises such a potential influence over members of the police force as that.
12205. It has been said that the police saw that the Anti-Chinese Gambling League were moving deter -
minately in the direction ot suppressing the gambling-dens that they made a successful raid ; — is it a fact
that the police were galvanised into action by the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? That is not the
case. Strange to say, before an)' action was taken by the Anti-Chinese Gambling League the Superin-
tendent spoke to me on the subject. He said that he thought the evil was increasing in Sydney, and. that
he had directed the attention of his officers to it. They had not a very busy season on just then. Of
0 course there are times when the police are very busy, collecting electoral rolls and jury lists, and Mr. Bead
was wishful to take advantage of the occasion by devoting special attention to the Chinese gambling evil.
12206. Mr. Nock made this statement before the Colonial Secretary, " The police have said that they can
do nothing because the buildings occupied by the Chinese are owned by Members of Parliament and other
influential men. The police had said that nothing could be done, but when the league moved, the police
took action. Well, there are 1,700 police in the Colony. If the gentleman who made the statement
would say that it was Constable Brown or Constable Jones who said so I should know what to do, but
as it is the charge is quite impalpable.
12207. Well, that statement has been applied to Senior- Constables Beadman and Carson, as well as two
or three others ? Well, if the Commission takes no notice of it, and the statement comes to me, those
men will very soon be placed on their defence. I do not believe it for a moment.
1220S. It was further stated by a member of the deputation that "the police were not content with getting
a gold watch in three months, but must have diamond rings on their fingers. It was a wrell-known
fact that they were being paid to keep their eyes shut. On the night of the raid the police went into
different Chinese shops before commencing operations to ask for crowbars in order to break into Ah
Ping's. Of course it was known, and Ah Ping got away. He hoped that steps would be taken to change
the police, and to change them frequently, and that raids should not be made now and again, but every
night until the evil was put clown." All I can say is that the men on that beat have to pay so large a rent
for their houses that they would rather be stationed in some of the suburbs, where house rent is less,
and they can get places with small gardens attached to them. As for the wearing of diamond rings, I
did hear of a constable who was a sport before he entered the force wearing a diamond ring, but you
can buy them for half-a-crown.
12209. President.'] You are referring to Senior-Constable Beadman, I suppose. He was not a sporting
man — he was a sculler ? Yes ; he was a sculler.
12210. But you have not heard that he obtained that diamond ring in an improper way at all — as a bribe,
in fact ? I never heard of a case in wdrich it was even stated that the police had accepted bribes. 12211.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 333
12211. You have heard rumours to that effect, I expect ? Oh, yes; because a policeman is everybody's butt. Mr. Fosbery.
12212. But as far as you know the police have by their conduct placed themselves above even the sus- ' ~*~ — x
picion of accepting bribes ? I would not say that no policeman has taken a bribe during my forty years 20 Nov-> 189L
of service, but I have seen the police in all parts of the world and I consider that the men in the force of
this Colony have not their superiors anywhere. As an instance of the honesty of the police I might refer
to a young constable who the other day finding 370 sovereigns lying on the foot-path by the side of a
helplessly drunken man took charge of the money as well as the individual, and thus saved him from the
hands of thieves. But I hardly like singling out a particular case of that kind, because it makes ii appear
as though there were something exceptional about it, whereas as a matter of fact circumstances of a similar
character are of frequent occurrence.
12213. Mr Hawthorne.] I suppose when they do that sort of thing you only consider that they are doing
their duty? Undoubtedly. It is their duty, and in the force is regarded as a matter of course. Num-
berless cases have come under my notice in which the police have saved large sums of money in the posses-
ion or drunken men or persons in other ways incapacitated from taking care of it from the hands of thieves.
12214. Mr. Abigail.'] These statements were made bv men holding high and responsible public positions,
and consequently weight is attached to their word by the general public. Mr. Black said that the police
were bribed by the Chinese, not only by chests of tea but by gifts of money ;— " he had heard that for
years the constables in a given district are constantly being" changed. Some men may remain longer than
others in a district, but it would be necessary to change the policemen who had been in that quarter for
so long." To show you how constant the changes have been since I have been in Sydney I may say that
I have had 6,000 recruits through the depot in that time.
12215. Mr. Hawthorne^ And these men you are constantly distributing through the Metropolitan and
country divisions ? Oh, changes take place every day.
12216. Mr. Abigail.] And then to show you how the statement has fastened itself on the minds of some
people Mr. Kelly, another M.P., said that he believed that the police winked at the evil. It has been
asserted that the day before the raid was made it was known to the people about there that a raid was
going to be made, and as a consequence they were prepared for it ? Tes, there was something of the kind,
but that may have leaked out as we all know things will leak out, sometimes in a way that is not attribut-
able in the direction surmised.
12217. The same man said this : That the police were afraid to take action against the proprietors of the
gambling-dens because they believed that the Members of the Legislative Council who owned the houses
would use their influence to have them removed from the force ? There is not a man from the Governor
down to the meanest citizen in the community who has any influence with me. They could not be
removed.
12218. I presume that if anyone attempted to use influence with you ? I should show him out of
the door.
12219. Then he thinks so ? Well it is possible. "We are all in unprofitable servants. We could all do a
little better if we tried.
12220. You have yourself said that the police might possibly have been more active, and the members of
this Inquiry since hearing the evidence up to now thinks that a more frequent visitation with a view to
harassing the people engaged in these gaming-houses, and frightening the Europeans who visit them
would have a salutary effect ? The result of the deliberations of this Commission will be entitled to every
consideration and attention.
12221. Mr. HaivtJiorne.] What kind of officers have you found Mr. Atwill and Mr. M'Kay to be ; — have
you found them to be men of very high character ? I would trust them privately or publicly as im-
plicitly as I would trust any member of the community.
12222. During the whole course of their work as inspectors you have never heard of any suspicion attach-
ing to the way in which they have carried out their duties ? Never a word ; never a word that carried any
conviction with me.
12223. And judging them as you have judged them, having had so many men under your control, you
think that they would be very unlikely men to allow anybody to approach them with bribes tor the pur-
pose of allowing anybody to go unmolested when they ought to have been apprehended for wrong doing ?
I should think that it was in the highest degree imj)robable.
12224. You stated just now that you thought that perhaps more vigour might have been displayed by the
officers in charge of the various districts ; — are we to understand that Mr. Atwill has, to your mind, dis-
played a lack of vigour in the carrying out of his duties ? Oh, no ; I said that of course greater vigour
might have been displayed by the police. For instance, if I gave general instructions to the police in the
Metropolitan district, that they were to give exceptional attention to any breach of the law, there would
be a large amount of vigour shown under my instructions, and the same thing would have happened with
regard to Chinese gambling if I had issued special instructions with regard to it.
12225. You admit that the gambling amongst the Chinese has developed to an alarming extent ; — are we
to understand that the Chinese alone have developed the gambling habit to an alarming extent, or that
they, in common with Europeans, have done so ? I think that gambling in the community generally
has increased of late to an alarmingly demoralising extent, and that Chinese gambling has increased along
with it. I did not use the word " alarming " before, but I do now.
12226. And judging from the reports of your officers has it appeared to you that the gambling amongst
the Chinese and the Europeans who visit them is as bad in its effect upon the community as the form of
gambling promoted by the springing up of totalisators ? No ; I do not think that it is so bad, because
the Chinese, as a rule, have not got wives and families depending upon them.
12227. The name of Senior-constable Beadman was mentioned just now ; — are you aware that he has had
several presentations made to him by several public bodies for meritorious services of one kind and
another ? Yes ; I. am also aware that he is a very efficient and trustworthy officer, and the public are
fortunate in having such a man in the force.
12228. Perhaps you are aware also that he wears a good deal of jewellery ? Oh! I hope he does not ; I
think it is very bad taste for a policeman to wear jewellery.
12229. You are not aware that he was presented with a watch by the Mayor and Aldermen of Balmain,
for rescuing a boy from drowning ? I think I did hear something about it.
12230. If you saw a policeman coming into your presence with a large amount of jewellery, would you
question him as to how he came by it ? I do not think so ; but a constable coming in with uniform on
would not show his jewellery. ( 12231.
334 CIIINESE (iAMBLINa COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. Fosbery. 12231. But the mcu who have been charged with wearing so much jewellery are plain-clothes constables ?
' ~*~ — s They are plain-clothes constables sometimes, but at other times they may be in uniform ; and, at all
20 Not., 1891. events I should probably tell them of it if I saw them wearing what' I considered to be an unbecoming
amount of jewellery. You must remember, however, that a plain-clothes constable might wish to make a
great display of flash jewellery if he was going amongst a lot of betting men.
12232. You said just now that you were quite satisfied with the integrity and probity of every member of
your force ? That is rather a large order. I said that I was perfectly satisfied with the integrity and
probity of the police force as a whole.
12233. But the question was with regard to the police officers in the Metropolitan Division? Oh, yes ; I
have every confidence in every single officer in the Metropolitan Division.
12231. You have seen nothing amongst your officers that would lead you to believe that they were
treating with an unfair degree of favour, either the Chinese or any other class in the community ?
absolutely nothing. If such a thing were proved they would not hold their positions for an hour.
12235. Mr. Abigail.] Have you ever heard that there was a police sustentation fund? No ; that is an
invention of the enemy.
12236. Did you, during Mr. Anderson's term as Inspector of No. 4 district, find less trouble with the
Chinese or any other class of residents than you do now ? Certainly not. Mr. Anderson was a good
officer, so is Mr. Atwill, both good officers, but I do not know that there was anything exceptionally
brilliant about Mr. Anderson.
12237. Was there anything in his administration to lead you to believe that he was more active than Mr.
Atwill is? Certainly not. Both men are excellent officers.
12238. "Was there less gambling among the Chinese then than there is at the present time ? That I can-
not say. I have no knowledge of it. I should think, from what Mr. Abigail has said, that you had
already an answer to that question ; and I have stated that there is an increase of gambling generally.
As a matter of fact there has been a general tendency to public gambling since 1875.
12239. Do you find it a common thing for policemen to be tendering their resignations in the metro^
politan districts ? Some resign ; not many.
12240. Do you find the resignations in IN o. 4 more numerous than in other districts ? No.
12241. Do you find more applications from constables to be transferred from No. 4 than from any other
district ? Yes ; because they find so much difficulty in getting houses — rents are so high.
12242. So that if it has been said that policemen prefer the Lower George-street district to any other,
and are constantly applying to be transferred there, that would be untrue ? It would be the reverse
of the truth. They like to be stationed at places like Balmain or the Glebe, where they can get a decent
little house for their allowance.
12243. So that your experience is, that instead of No. 4 being looked upon as a district to be greatly
desired, it is generally regarded with something like aversion ? All other beats are preferred to it.
12244. Mr. Quong Tarl.~] Would you mind telling the Commission what was the purport of a recom-
mendation that you made some time ago in regard to the Chinese ? As far as I recollect I recommended
that the Chinese being an alien race, should be placed under some special supervision, and I still hold to
that opinion both for sanitary, social, and moral reasons. I think that people coming as aliens to this
country cannot possibly complain — even the best of them — if there are special measures taken to supervise
them, and that supervision would, of course, extend to their habits, which are the subject of inquiry by
this Commission.
12245. Mr. Hawthorne.] Are we to understand that you would have special regulations to deal with the
Chinese as a race, apart from the rest of the community ? I certainly should. The way they are housed,
their employments, their habits of life, their opium-smoking, and their invitations to Europeans to indulge
in the pernicious practice should, in my opinion, be dealt with by a special Act.
12246. Mr. Quong Tart.] Do you remember a Chinaman called Eobt. Le Kum coming to your office and
complaining of the gambling? I know that some Chinaman did come to me and complain of it.
12247. And he said that it had caused a great deal of trouble because he could not get the Inspector at
No. 2 station to take any notice of him ? It is possible, but I do not remember.
12248. Mr. Abigail.] In fact the complaints of the man referred to and some other Chinamen are, that
when they have been to the police with information they have been treated with great abruptness and
that no action has been taken upon the strength of their stories ? Exactly. I should treat them in
much the same way, because it is well known that when one Chinaman comes to complain of another he
is jealous of him.
12249. Mr. Quong Tart.] Do they complain to you for their own benefit or for the benefit of the country
at large ? The higher class of Chinese are good citizens, and they very much regret the evil practices of
their countrymen.
12250. You have found the Chinese merchants very much in favour of suppressing gambling, have you
not ? Yes ; and there are a great many highly respectable Chinese. Indeed I would like to take this
opportunity of saying that some of the Chinese here have given me the greatest assistance in the discharge
of my duties.
12251. Mr. Abigail.] They cannot sell opium without a license, can they ? No ; it is contrary to law.
12252. Do you know that several of the merchants in Lower George-street are doing so ? Well, it goes
into so small a compass that it is not very easy to detect them ; but that comes more within the province
of the Custom-house officials than the police.
[The witness withdrew.]
MONDAY,
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 335
MONDAY, 23 NOVEMBER, 1891.
The Mayor oe Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
EEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pkesident.
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG- TAET, Esq,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Mr. Bichard Seymour called and examined : —
12253. President.] You are Inspector of Nuisances for the city of Sydney ? I am. Mr-
12254. How long have you been in that office ? Close on thirty years. Previous to that I was assistant K Seymour-
to Mr. Stubbs for eight years. 23rTl89i
12255. Tou drew up a report for the Commission called " A report on the premises occupied by the ''
Chinese within the city of Sydney," referred to in a letter dated 22nd September, 1891 ? I did.
12256. And you swear that that is a true report as to the condition of the premises mentioned therein as
to the number of Chinese sleeping in each particular house, and as to the condition of each particular
house ? Tes.
12257. All the details given in that report are true to the best of your knowledge and belief ? Yes.
12258. Now, do you remember being examined by a Committee appointed to inquire into the state of the
common lodging-houses in the city of Sydney in 1875 ? I do.
12259. Have you a good recollection of the evidence you gave on that occasion ? I do not recollect it.
12260. I believe the evidence given by you before that Committee was confined to the common lodging-
houses of Sydney ? Yes.
12261. It did not include the Chinese habitations? I do not think so.
12262. But you are not quite sure ? No.
12263. You were asked on that occasion, " Do you know whether the Chinese keep lodging-houses in any
part of the city of Sydney ?" and you answered, " I have a good deal of inspection amongst the Chinese" ; —
do you remember that? Yes.
12264. And you proceeded to say that " the Chinese lived eight or ten in a room, and lay on stretchers,
something like a table" ; — do they continue to live in that fashion ? They do not live so many in a
room as they used to do.
12265. Do you think that change for the better is in consequence of your inspections and your reprobation
of such practices ? Every Chinese building is inspected every month in connection with the inspection of
common lodging-houses.
12266. And, as a consequence, you have procured a diminution in the number that sleep in one room in
these places ? Yes.
12267. Have you legal power to do that ? Yes.
12268. You are confined entirely to the city of Sydney ? Yes.
12269. There is a general improvement in the style of living of the Chinese now as compared with the
time when the report of that Committee was produced in 1875 ? There is, sir, a wonderful improvement.
The Chinese premises are wonderfully clean. I can swear that.
12270. Do you remember being with the members of this Commission one evening when they attended a
place in Little Essex-street ? I do.
12271. And do you remember I subsequently condemned that building? Yes.
12272. Do you consider that was a building which should have been allowed to exist? No.
12273. But you had visited that frequently ? Yes ; I had them fined in that place.
12274. Did they keep the premises clean generally ? After they were fined they did.
12275. Did you report the existence of that building to the proper officers of the Municipal Council or
the Mayor ? I reported it to the City Architect, who is the officer of the Council to which all such
matters are referred.
12276. And you did that with a view to procuring its condemnation and removal ? Yes.
12277. "What interval elapsed between the date of your reporting to the proper officer of the Council and
its condemnation by me ? I do not think it was very long.
12278. As a matter of fact, your report to the City Architect was just anterior to my visit ? Yes.
12279. Who is the owner of that building ? I do not remember just now, but it is in that report. I
think the house referred to is No. 40, Little Essex-street.
12280. In that building there were nineteen bunks, and some of them in a cellar ? Yes ; there was a
man and his wife living in that cellar.
12281. Are there any other buildings like that in the city — any that are deserving condemnation but
which are not condemned ? No ; not occupied by Chinamen.
12282. I suppose there are no buildings occupied by Europeans and used as common lodging-houses
anything like as bad ? No.
12283. In your evidence before the Committee on Common Lodging-houses in 1875, you described a
number of indecent situations in which you had found Chinamen with European women ? Yes ; that was
in Cambridge-street and G-oulburn-street.
12284. Have you witnessed any similar scenes of late ? No ; I have not.
12285. Then there has been a great improvement in that respect as well? Therehasbeenagreatimprovement.
12286. That is to say, there is not so much open indecency between the Chinese and white women in
their dwellings ? There is not, so far as can be seen by the officers appointed to inspect these places in
their visits in the day-time.
12287. Mr. Abigail.] Was it during a day inspection that you saw the things you described in your evidence
before the Common Lodging-house Committee ? Yes ; it was in the day-time.
12288. President.] And you make constant visitations now, and have just the same opportunities and
means of discovering gross violations of decency if they occurred, but you have not discovered them to
anything like so great extent ? No. Only one case came under our observation some months ago, in
Wexford-street, when we found a young woman there with a baby in her arms, and that was a case of
indecent exposure, the last I have seen among the Chinese dwellings.
12289. Have you noticed if the opium-dens are as numerous as they were in 1875 ? I think they smoke
as much. 12290.
23 Nov. ,1891.
330 CHINESE (i.VMULlXG COMMISSION —MtXTIES 01' EVIDENCE.
Mr. 12290. They are as mucli frequented? Yes.
R.JSeymour. J2291. Where are they situated chiefly? In Lower (Jeorge-streot and G-oulburn-street, in Wexford-
street, in particular, and Essex-lane ; all round the block there.
12292. Have you seen young girls indulge in opium-smoking ? I have frequently in former years.
12293. You have not noticed so many lately ? No.
12294. Since 1875, I suppose, there has been a great diminution in the number of young women that
indulged in the habit of opium-smoking ? Yes.
12295. To what do you attribute the change ; — is it the result of greater supervision of these places ?
They are afraid of us and the officers of the police going in. If there are any women about the place
and they sec us they scurry away at once.
12296. You think your visitation has not only had the effect of bringing about an improvement in the
sanitary condition of these places, but that it has also had the effect of improving their moral condition
by operating as a deterring influence ? It has.
12297. Do you think the police are more active or energetic in this connection than they were in 1875 ?
They are ; I have seen them in these quarters frequently.
12298. Has there been any alteration in the law since 1875 ? No.
12299. Then, in point of fact, the effect of the inquiry in 1875, although it was not followed by Legislative
enactment, was beneficial to the community ? It was.
12300. There is nothing like the same amount of overcrowding in the Chinese quarters now as there was
then ? No.
12301. And there is no such gross violation of ordinary decency in those places as there was in 1875?
No. You may travel through these houses for a week and not see one exhibition of immorality.
12302. What are the ages of the women that you see consorting with the Chinese in their houses ? They
range from about 18 to 20, now.
12303. And over 20, of course ? Yes ; previously there used to be some very young girls. I turned
fourteen young girls out of one house in Castlereagh-street ; it was a carpenter's shop. Before 1875 I
have seen mere children there, as young as ] 0 years of age.
12304. Do you know when the reformatory at Watson's Bay was established ? I do not.
12305. Did the police apprehend young women who were found in the Chinese quarters ? They did.
12306. They would be dealing with them according to law ? Yes ; and they apprehend a great many of
these young girls wandering about the street at night before they go to the Chinese quarters.
12307. So that the vigilance of the police has contributed greatly towards keeping young girls out of the
Chinese quarters ? Yes.
12308. Mr. Abigail^ Have you ever made any inquiries as to how these women gravitate towards the
Chinese quarters ? I have asked several women whom I found there, and they state that they are married
to the Chinamen. Then I have asked them how they came to marry Chinamen, and they say, " Because
they treat us better than white people ; they give us clothes and money, and the Chinese as a rule do
not drink and beat us."
12309. Have you in any of your more recent visitations found young girls, under the age of 16 years,
cohabiting with the Chinese ? I have not.
12310. Has it come to your knowledge that the Chinese endeavour to get hold of pure young girls —
Europeans — and by inducing them to smoke opium, get possession of them ? I have heard so, but I have
not seen it myself.
12311. Ha;ve you gained information to that effect from reliable authority ? I have not.
11312. Such cases would be few, then ? Very few, I should say.
12313. Is it your opinion that many of the women who consort with the Chinese have previously led
impure lives ? I am sure of it.
12314. You are not of opinion that the Chinese are a great factor in effecting the ruin of young girls in
this city? I know for a fact that many of the young girls I have seen in the Chinamen's buildings have
"been prosecuted by me for soliciting prostitution from our own countrymen.
12315. Do these women you have found in Chinese dwellings show any evidences of disease at all ?
In one instance, in a place called " Suez Canal," I saw a woman in a dreadful state of disease, and I had
the Health Officer called down, and she was sent to Little Bay.
12316. Mr. Hawthorne.'] How long ago was that? A couple of years ago.
12317. President.'] Can you give us any information as to whether disease is spreading among the white
people through these women ? I have seen men in these places with them ; not many. Many of the
women I have seen there were not healthy-looking ; they had a bloated appearance.
12318. As a rule, you do not find many white men cohabiting with the women who live among the
Chinese ? No ; the number is small^ I should say.
12319. What sort of men frequent the houses in Wexford-street ? Only Chinese.
12320. No larrikins ? Yes ; some larrikins and Italians.
12321. What do they go there for ? For gambling purposes.
12322. Not for opium-smoking ? Well, I have seen white people opium-smoking there too.
12323. Do you think the habit has taken hold of the white people to any extent ? I have not seen it
increase much. I have seen them lying on the stretchers smoking occasionally.
12324. Who is the owner of that long terrace of houses in Wexford-street ? It did belong to Ben. James
formerly, but I think he sold out recently.
12325. Do you know anything about the rents obtained for these houses ; — are they excessive, compared
with the rents of other houses in the street ? They are excessive.
1232G. Would you advocate the locating of the Chinese together in a particular part of the city ? I
decidedly would.
12327. As a matter of fact, they are located very much in one or two places ? Yes.
12328. At the northern end of the city? Yes; and the south end— in "Wexford-street, Eoster-street,
Groulburn-street, Campbell-street (very few there), and Exeter- place.
12329. In what locality is the Chinese population most congested ? I should say in Wexford-street and
round that block.
12330. You regularly visit that locality, you and your officers ? Yes.
12331. And you have nothing to complain of with regard to the drainage system there ? No ; we find
the premises very clean. 12332.
CHINESE WAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 337
12332. Are the Chinese themselves clean in their habits ? There is one very dirty habit they have, of Mr-
expectorating, no matter where they are, on the floor, and it lies about. This is a disgusting habit, more K-J>eymour.
noticeable where they lie smoking opium. 23Novl891
12333. Have you made any night visitations to these places lately ? Not since I was out with your worship. '*
12334. Tou have said that you sawwomen smoking opium in these places ? Not lately ; some years ago.
12335. How do the Chinese lodging-houses compare with the common lodging-houses, favourably or
unfavourably? Favourably.
12336. Save and except as to the number of beds I suppose ? Tes ; but very often in the European
common lodging-houses it is disgraceful the way they are packed together. Tou will see several beds in one
room with barely enough room for a man to pass between two of them — merely the width of his legs.
12337. Tou have prepared a report for the information of the Commission called " A report as to common
lodging-houses, 17th October, 1891 " ? Tes.
12338. The contents of this are true, and in the description you have given similar details to those you
have given in report about Chinese lodging-houses ? Tes.
12339. And you say that the Chinese lodging-houses compare favourably with the common lodging-
houses ? Well, I cannot say that so far as the bunks are concerned in the Chinese places.
12340. But so far as the internal cleanliness is concerned ? They do.
12341. The only great point of difference is as to the number of occupants of the rooms ? Tes.
12342. Now, as to the number of occupants of a room, is there any law defining how many persons shall sleep
in a certain cubic space ? There is not.
12343. Ts it your opinion that the Legislature ought to pass an Act dealing with all lodging-houses, and
defining the amount of air space which should be allowed to each individual in them ? I think it should
have been done years ago.
12344. Did you not recommend to the Eoyal Commission in 1875 some such course ? I did.
12345. Mr. Abigail.] Do you remember the terms of the Eeport of the Common Lodging-houses
Commission ? I do not.
12346. Theyrecommended that "All lodging-houses should pay a license fee either to the Government or the
Municipal Council of Sydney, and that officers be appointed whose duties should consist in inspecting such
houses and reporting to the proper authorities any breaches of the law that might take place ; " — do you
remember that ? Tes ; I recollect seeing that in the papers.
12347- And you think that would be a good provision to apply to Chinese as well as Europeans ? Tes.
12348. The report also, " Recognised that each keeper of a common lodging-house should be compelled to
provide a certain amount of accommodation as regards space, lavatories, water-closets, &c ; " — I
suppose a provision of that kind would apply particularly to the Chinese habitations at the present time ?
Tes.
12349. I suppose there is no question or doubt that many of these places are overcrowded ? No. They
are overcrowded.
12350. Tou know the old coach factory in Eobinson's-lane ? Tes.
12351. That must be frightfully overcrowded? Tes; I know the place well. They are all market
gardeners that go there.
12352. The condition of the people thus huddled together as they are cannot but be detrimental not only
to themselves but to the public health of the district ? Certainly.
12353. Tou have heard of young girls being induced to go to these places by Chinamen, who have then
drugged them with opium ? I have seen it in years past.
12351. But a great improvement has taken place in that respect? Tes.
12355. Tou have said that many of the women living with the Chinese have to your knowledge previously
been prostitutes— in all probability they take to the Chinese quarters as a sort of refuge? Yes; and
They say that they receive protection from the Chinese people, and consequently stop with them.
12356. Prom about 1875 to 1880 there were a large number of young girls arrested I believe and sent to
different institutions ? Tes.
12357. Tou would very rarely find any young girls under 16 years of age in the Chinese quarters now-a-
days ? No ; but it is by no means a rare thing to find them on the public streets.
12358. In past years the Chinese used to keep brothels ? Tes.
12359. Do you know of any of them keeping places of that kind now ? I do not. I know on the north
side of Goulburn-street, before you come to Castlereagh-street, there was a very large Chinaman's brothel
at the back of the street. It was a galvanised iron building ; but that was demolished.
12360. Tou have no doubt, I suppose, that one of the chief agencies of immorality among the Chinese
was the use of opium ? It was. _
12361. And you think Legislative enactment to suppress the use of opium would be an immense public
advantage? I am sure of it. ,
12362. I see by your report that during the years spoken of you had 247 cases against the Chinese for
keeping dirty premises ? Tes. < ,
12363 And as a consequence of those prosecutions, a large improvement in the sanitary condition of
the Chinese 'premises has since taken place ? Tes ; through the prosecutions and the constant visitations
12364 Do you find, as a rule, that the Chinese are amenable to advice. Suppose, for example, you
officially instruct them to keep their premises clean and so forth, do they, as a rule, show a disposition to
carry out those instructions? They do.
12365 Do you find the Chinese more troublesome than the same class ot Europeans ? I find a great deal
more trouble with the Italians and Lascars, and people of that class. They pay no heed to what you tell
12366. So far as the gambling is concerned among these people, you have nothing to do with that in the
discharge of your duties, do you? No
12367 Tou have no doubt that the morals of the people are affected by the sanitary condition ot their
surroundings, I suppose, Mr. Seymour? Undoubtedly _
12368 And one of the greatest levers that could be employed to maintain a good standard in this respect,
amone the Chinese in particular, would be a Common Lodging-house Act, with similar provisions to
those suggested in the report of the Committee on that subject in 1875 ? Tes.
272—2 U 12369.
338 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 12369. Mr. Quona Tart.} During your long experience in the city have you found the Chinese to compare
R. Seymour, unfavourably with the people of other nationalities in the observance of law and order and cleanliness f
/^T~A^~S When first I took them in hand I did. But when a system of constant visitations was established they
23 Nov., 1891. improve(i greatly. They are very frightened of the police and ourselves— that is, the sanitary inspectors.
12370. Are they disposed to be law abiding? They aro. At least they are very frightened of the
officers of the law. They are a clean race of people compared to what they used to be years ago.
12371. Do you think that the Chinese, before you went among them, understood the law of the country ?
I do not think they did at first. _
12372. But when you explained to them what they had to do they carried out your instructions ? Yes ;
that is the case.
12373. Do you think if you had notices written out in Chinese characters explaining what they had to do
to comply with the sanitary law that would be a great help ? I am sure it would.
12374. Tou say you have found some of the Chinese lodging-houses overcrowded ? Tes.
12375. Of what occupations were the people you found in these places ? Mostly gardeners, and people
of that class. That place in Eobinson's-lane was frightfully crowded. The number of bunks show. It
is like a beehive. But, as I have said, there has been a wonderful improvement in the condition of the
Chinese quarters generally of late years.
12376. With regard to the present law, if you go into a place and find a number of persons occupying a
room 10 feet x 10 feet, have you no power to do anything ? None whatever. We want an Act to deal
with all the lodging-houses in the city — a comprehensive measure.
12377. Regarding opium-smoking, do you not think that is a great curse to the country ? I do regard it
as a great curse. If it were abolished there would be very few females frequenting these places. They
cannot keep away from it when once they get used to it. The girls have told me so themselves.
12378. Tour remarks with regard to dirty premises do not apply to the respectable Chinese merchants ?
No ; the premises of the merchants in Lower George-street are very creditable.
12379. Mr. McKillop.~\ Do you know whether the rents of houses in the Chinese quarter of Lower George-
street have increased during the last five years ? I am not in a position to say.
12380. Have you observed that the presence of the Chinese in any locality has had a markedly
deteriorating effect upon the Europeans in that locality ? Tes, it has.
12381. Have you noticed that the more respectable Europeans, if possible, remove from the quarters
where the Chinese establish themselves ? They do. Take Wexford-street, for instance. At one time
there was not a Chinaman in it ; but when the Chinese came there, and the women followed them to their
houses, the white people left the place, so that it is now really a Chinese town — that is what I call the
whole block.
12382. Would you like to see the Chinese — with the exception of the respectable merchants — that is, the
whole of the class you have spoken of, removed and confined to some particular portion of the city ? Tes>;
I have said so.
12383. Mr. Hawthorne.] How would you draw the line between the better class of Chinamen, and those
with whom we are called upon to deal ? It is very, easy to draw the line. Tou have only to go round
their places to see whom you have to deal with. If you were to go into the houses of the respectable
Chinese merchants, and see them and their families, you would be quite surprised perhaps. Then come
here southwards, and see the contrast. I could indicate every house that should be removed. There are
classes of Chinese, as of other nations. Indeed there are "here in Sydney, Italians, Turks, and Greeks, and
others, who also might be separated from the more respectable class of people in the community. Tou
have only to go down to Eowler's Place, off Castlereagh-street, where the Italians, Turks, and Russians
live, to get an idea of what they are like.
12384. Tou have found, as Inspector of Nuisances for the City of Sydney, that people of other nation-
alities introduced here are becoming quite as dangerous to the well-being of the citizens generally as the
Chinese ? T® ; I am sure of it. That is the reason why I mentioned one place to you. Look at the
LBeears in- Hapris-street, over hers. They live like pigs. I have counted forty in one house. They give
u$- a great deal of trouble. The low orders of the different peoples I have mentioned are a filthy race of
people. . ,
12385. Mr. McKillop.] Although you have nothing to do with the gambling question in your official
capacity, Mr. Seymour, I think it only fair to ask you if you have noticed an increase in the number of
gambling-houses in Lower George-street of late years ? I have.
12386. And in Wexford-street ? Tes ; I ha?e seen them gambling all hours when I have gone into
their places.
12387. With Europeans ? Tes ; large numbers of them. The last place I was in — it was shown when
the Commission was down there — they had got into a room at the top of the house, and there was a
regular stampede. They got away through a gate at the back like a swarm of flies.
12388. If a law were passed to do away with the barricades and secret places that exist in the Chinese
gambling-places, the police would have a far better chance of entering and making raids ? Tes.
12389. Mr. HawtJiorne.'] Erom your knowledge of what has been going on in the Chinese quarters,
all these years, Mr. Seymour, do you think the Government in the past displayed sufficient activity in
dealing with the Chinese? I am sure they did not. If a Common Lodging House Act had been intro-
duced, and stringent laws had been laid down for the guidance and direction of the Chinese the evil would
not have lasted half as long as it has done.
12390. Tou have no greater power now than in the past to compel these people to conform to what would
be considered proper and healthy conditions in the matter of the number sleeping in a room, for example ?
I have not the slightest power.
12391. Do you think it possible for young women to visit the Chinese quarters for the purpose of smoking
opium, and still retain their virtue in other respects ? Certainly not. They go in for other purposes.
I have seen them in the act.
12392. Have you inspected the Chinese quarters in any of the other colonies ? I have in Little Bourke-
street, Melbourne.
12393. How do you think the Chinese here bear comparison with those located in Melbourne ? We have
nothing in Sydney to hold a candle to the condition of things I saw in Little Bourke-street. I went
there about eight years ago during the Exhibition time with the late City Architect (Mr. Sapsford), and,
the
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 339
the present City Solicitor (Mr. Merriman). In one of the places we saw a finely-dressed young woman, Mr-
who came out and asked us what we would take, " wine, spirits, beer, or porter," and she brought out E- Seymour,
biscuits. In reply to a question from Mr. Merriman she said she came regularly to ttte Chinaman's gC^^ni
quarters. There is no hell in Sydney equal to Little Bourke-street, Melbourne. floT.,io»i.
12394. "With regard to the barricades the Chinamen erect in their gambling-dens, you have no power to
compel the Chinese to pull them down, have you ? I think the Improvement Board could compel them.
I have no such power ; but I think if the attention of the Improvement Board were directed by the
proper officer to a quantity of timber being piled up like that, the Board could deal with it.
12395. Do you think it is within the power of any one under the existing law to compel the Chinese more
than other folk to refrain from overcrowding their premises with material of any kind ? No ; you can
see that if you go to the Chinese carpenters.
12396. I suppose the same thing prevails in many of the European houses in the lower parts of the town—
that is, they make store-rooms of their bed-rooms, for instance ? Yes ; and many of the European people
have their servants sleeping in the cellars. Tou only need to go as far as Wynyard-square, to one of the
leading establishments in Sydney, to find the poor servants stowed away in the cellars.
12397. You have found in the course of your inspection of the houses of the more well-to-do class of
people in the eastern portions of the city that they allow their servants to sleep in places and under con-
ditions that would be considered unfit for a Chinaman ? Yes ; or, in fact, for any human being. It is
really disgraceful to see the way some of the poor servants are stowed away.
12398. And you have found domestic servants so treated very often by persons holding leading positions
in society? ^ Yes ; I have known that state of things in the establishments of men owning extensive pro-
perty, and living in style. I have seen in such a house the poor servants stowed away in the cellar, which
has been divided into two compartments by a wooden partition with a door ; the females sleeping on one
side, and a male on the other.
12399. So that viewed either from a moral or physical standpoint you have found conditions as objection-
able on the premises of some of the well-to-do Europeans as among the Chinese? With regard to the
housing of their servants, I have unquestionably.
12400. Mr McKillop.] And in extreme cases like that you have no right to interfere ? No.
12401. Mr. Hawthorne.'] How long is it since you, as representing the City Council, started this house-
to-house inspection which, as you say, has had such a beneficial result in regard to the Chinese as well as
the European portion of the population ? About eleven years, to the best of my belief.
12402. You have found it very beneficial from every standpoint, in suppressing crime and vicious practices
among different classes of the population, as well as in adding to the sanitary well-being of the city ? No
doubt of that. We have a thorough system of inspection by officers specially appointed for that duty of
the Chinamen's quarters and the common lodging-houses every month.
12403. Mr. McKillop.] This inspection being carried out under your supervision ? Yes ; and these
officers send in their reports every morning, and they are regularly entered in a book kept for the purpose.
12404. Then I gather from your evidence, Mr. Seymour, that the noticeable improvement which has taken
place in the moral and sanitary condition of the Chinese quarters and other common places in the city, as
compared to the fearful state of things disclosed in your evidence before the Commission of Inquiry
on Common Lodging-houses, in the year 1875, has been due to the system introduced by the Sanitary
Department of the City Council, and the vigilance of its officers, rather than to any foresight or activity
on the part of the general government of the country ? That is the case, I think. When my first report
came out about the Chinamen's places a pamphlet was printed on the subject, and it was stated that the
picture was overdrawn or highly coloured, but I was in a position to say, from personal inspection, that,
if anything, the picture was not highly coloured enough.
12405. Mr. Abigail.] Seeing that constant supervision has brought about such a marked improvement in
the sanitary condition of these parts of the city more particularly referred to, are you of opinion that
constant supervision of the Chinese gambling-houses on the part of the police would have the same effect
in respect to the gambling evil ? I am sure it would.
12406. You have heard that a number of European people visit these Chinese places for the purpose of
gambling ? Yes ; numbers of our working men go there.
12407. And you have no doubt about it being carried on openly ? Yes ; as openly as the sun is in the
heavens. I have seen it myself.
12408. If you had the same power to deal with this gambling evil as you have with regard to the sanitary
condition, do you think you could soon put a stop to it ? Well, we could assist to do so.
12409. You would minimise it considerably ? Yes.
12410. I believe you have been assisting the police in the matter of persons loitering in the streets in con-
nection with the " totes ? " Yes.
12411. And complaints have been made in the City Council about the officers of the Council being used
for that purpose ? Yes ; but we have only assisted so far as giving evidence is concerned.
12412. Mr. Hawthorne.] How do you think gambling among the European population compares with
that amongst the Chinese ? It is a great evil among the white people. You have only got to go as far as
King-street on any big race day to see what it is. You can scarcely get along the street for the crowds
of our own people of both sexes— women, boys, and little girls, even, buying race cards.
12413. You think, then, that the " tote " business is a greater evil, and more inconvenient to the public
generally than you have ever found to arise from Chinese gambling ? I am sure of it. You will see
the streets crowded with these young fellows having cards, and others buying from them, many of them,
little boys coming out of the different business places in the city, to put their half-crowns on a race.
12414. I suppose that kind of thing is a development of the " tote " business chiefly ? Yes ; within the
last couple of years. ,
12415. Mr. McKillop.] They are becoming more experienced gamblers ? Yes.
12416. Starting so young they grow up pretty clever at the business ? Yes ; they are pretty expert at
the business.
[The witness withdrew.]
Saturday,
340 L']tI\ESE OAMBIiISU COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
SATURDAY, 28 NOVEMBER, 1891.
%ttsvc&: —
The Mayor of Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbesident.
QUONG- TART, Esq., | JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. "William Wong Goldtown called and examined : —
W. W. 12117. President.] Have you had any other name besides that which you have now given? No.
Goldtown. 12418. How long have you been in this Colony ? Nearly four years.
'—-"*-— ~> 12419. Did you come direct from China here ? Tes.
28 Nov., 1891. 12420. So that you have only been four years away from China ? Tes.
12421. What occupation did you take up when you landed in Sydney ? I became a general agent and
translator.
12422. Did you carry on business on your own account ? No ; I was with a friend of mine ; we were in
partnership.
12423. What is your friend's name ? Alfred Archey.
12424. Did you have a place of business ? Tes ; in King-street — No. 133.
12425. How long were you in partnership with this friend of yours ? About a year, or perhaps— some-
where about that time.
12426. You were a kind of agent for the sale of Chinese goods, is that so ? No ; we were general agents
for the gardeners. We had all kinds of business to transact for them — making out leases, and so on.
12427. In fact you were a general agent for the Chinese gardeners? Yes.
12428. Where did you acquire your knowledge of English ? In Hong Kong.
12429. What business did you follow there ? I was a translator, and clerk to His Excellency the Nether-
lands Minister.
12430. After you went out of partnership with your friend what did you do for a living then ? I got my
living by translating and sometimes interpreting, and gave myself to private study.
12431. 1 want to know how you earned your living ? I can live on what I earn by translating and
interpreting.
12432. Were you ever employed by any Chinese merchant ? Not permanently.
12433. Were you employed by some of them occasionally ? Tes.
12434. In what capacity ? As an interpreter.
12435. Tou were never employed as clerk or book-keeper or agent for any Chinese merchant in
Sydney ? No.
12436. Were your services much in request as interpreter ? Tes.
12437. Was it sufficient to maintain you ? Tes ; and some time ago I established a business in Park-
street, as a tea merchant.
12438. And I suppose you also acted as an interpreter then? Tes ; and also I was a general agent for
my countrymen.
12439. What was the number of the building in Park-street where you established this business?
No. 12.
12440. Was, it a large business ? Not very.
12441. How long did you carry on business there? About eight months.
12442. Did you fail? Tes.
12443. Did you turn insolvent ? No.
12444. What were your liabilities ? I can hardly tell you ; I could tell you about the amount perhaps.
12445. If I failed ten years ago I could tell how much I owed at that time approximately ; I do not
want to know the exact amount; — generally, what were your liabilities? My liabilities amounted to
about £40 or £50 at the time I gave up the business. That was after I sold the assets.
12446. Tou were £40 or £50 on the wrong side ? Tes ; about that.
12447. Who were your principal creditors ? The London ham-shop, Mr. Atterton, a painter ; I cannot
think of any others to whom 1 owed anything on account of the business.
12448. What were your total liabilities before you realised on your stock ? About £150. I always paid
cash for my goods.
12449. Did you owe any money to any of the Chinese merchants then ? Not on account of that business.
12450. Did you owe money to any of the Chinese merchants in Sydney on account of any other
business at that time ? No.
12451. Well, when you failed, what did you then do ? I kept a school, in Robertson's-lane, off
Q-oulburn-street.
12452. Whom did you teach ? I taught some of the Chinese.
12453. And what did you teach then ? English. I also kept a school in Alexandria before I opened
in Robertson's-lane.
12454. Did you earn your living solely by these means then ? Tes ; by teaching and interpreting.
12454^ . How long were you engaged in teaching — up to what date ? Up to the time I went to Queensland,
that is about three months and a fortnight ago. The school is not broken up even now. There has been
a holiday. It will be reopened some time next week.
12455. What do you charge your countrymen for tuition ? Ten shillings for a fortnight — -that is, I charge
them 5s. a week, and they pay fortnightly.
12456. And you have done nothing else for a living since you came to Australia, except what you have
told me ? Tes, I have been connected with the gardening business.
12457. Where were the gardens situated ? In Arncliffe ; I have nothing to do with them now.
12458. Do you recollect seeing in the newspapers an account of a deputation that waited on Sir Henry
Parkes, in reference to Chinese gambling ? Tes.
12459. Tou became interested in the question of Chinese gambling just before that, did you not ? Tes.
12460. How came you to take an interest in the question of Chinese gambling in the first instance ?
Well, I regretted that it should exist in a city like this, in any way.
12461. Then your interest in Chinese gambling arose from a desire to sec it suppressed ? Tes, that was
my object. 12462.
CHINESE GAMBIIKG COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 341
124G2. And you would do all you could to bring about its suppression amongst your own countrymen, as W. W.
well as among Europeans ? Yes. Goldtown.
12463. How did you become aware of the existence of what is called the Anti-Chinese Gambling League, 9/^A^T^1
in Lower George-street ? The League was formed before I went there, and I saw it in the paper, and J8 -Nov., 1881.
went and called upon the treasurer.
12464. "What is the name of the treasurer ? Mr. Buchanan ; that is the name of the gentleman I
first saw.
12465. Mr. Hawthorne.] Did you go to Mr. Buchanan, or did he come to you in the first instance? I
went to Mr. Buchanan.
12466. Voluntarily? Tes.
12467. Were you authorised by anyone to go and see Mr. Buchanan, or did you go of your own free
will? I went there the first time of my own free will.
12468. President.'] The treasurer's name is Buchanan, you say ? Tes.
12469. Now, I want you to be very particular about answering the question I am about to put to you : Is
it not a fact that you were urged to go down to see that gentleman, and become a member of the League,
by some of your countrymen ? I was not urged to go.
12470. "Were you asked to go ? Not exactly asked. I and some of my friends talked it over.
12471. It was suggested to you ? No, not suggested to me. I saw the report in the paper, and some
friends and I had a chat together about it. I said it was a very good thing to have an Anti-Gambling
League, and that I thought I would go there and become a member ; and my friends — who knew of course
what sort of a man I was — said if such a thing could be done, so much the better for the whole community.
That is the conversation we had about the matter.
12472. Where did that conversation take place ? In the school-room.
12473. Were any of your scholars present ? No, they were not there ; there may have been one or two
of them — I cannot say.
12474. Can you tell us the names of any of your Chinese friends who were there ? No, I cannot.^/T;>Vr-
12475. Are you quite sure you cannot tell the names of the friends you sat and chatted with ? Of course
I know them ; but I cannot say which of my friends were there on that occasion. Some might come one
, night, and some another. I cannot remember distinctly at present the individuals I spoke to — perhaps I
shall be able to later on.
12476. Would you recommend us to adjourn the meeting, and ask you to come again, so that you may
remember ? I would not. I may recollect presently.
12477. Is it not a fact that some of those to whom you spoke on the subject were themselves gamblers ?
I do not know whether they are gamblers or not ; I was not told that they were, and I never saw them
gamble.
12478. Some of them have the reputation of being gamblers, I suppose ? I never heard that.
12479. Was it not a matter well known to your countrymen, that some of these men whom you spoke to
were gamblers, although you might never have seen them gambling ; — in other words, were they not sus-
pected of gambling ? I never suspected them of gambling at the time.
12480. Will you swear they were not gamblers ? I will swear I never saw them gambling ; and I will
swear I did not know them to be gamblers at the time, even if they were.
12481. Is it not a fact that some of them were interested in gambling-houses themselves ? Not that I
know of.
12482. And they were intimate friends of yours, were they ? Not very intimate — just ordinary friends.
12483. How was it they came to the school-room to discuss this question with you ? They did not come
especially for that purpose. Our countrymen always visit each other's houses to have a chat.
12484. If a strange Chinaman came to your school-room would you not ask him what his business
was ? No.
12485. The very fact of his being a Chinaman would be sufficient to account for his presence there,
although you had never seen him before ? Not by himself, but if he came in with a number of other
friends it would.
12486. Then you admit some of them must have been friends of yours ? Tes.
12487. And yet you cannot give the name of anyone of them ? I do not know which party to name.
12488. Tou can give the names of half a dozen if you like ? I cannot say. We just met together to
have a chat, as we often do. I cannot remember who were present on that particular occasion.
12489. Had you not reason to believe that they came to discuss the Chinese question with you ? No ; I
do not think'that they came for any purpose of that kind.
12490. However, you entered upon a discussion of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League, and you said it
was a very good thing for your countrymen te suppress the gambling, and that you would become a
member of the League ; and thereupon you waited on Mr. Buchanan ? Tes, I said that ; and some two
or three days after I went to see Mr. Buchanan.
12491. What occurred at the interview between yourself and Mr. Buchanan ? I went to Mr. Buchanan's
public-house ; I had a drink and asked for Mr. Buchanan. We then introduced ourselves, and I
asked him about the Anti-Chinese Gambling League. He said he was the treasurer, and I suggested that
he should ask his fellow members of the League to admit me as a member, as I admired the movement
for bringing about the suppression of gambling. He seemed to be very pleased, and after some conver-
sation with his fellow members, I was introduced to the meeting.
12492. Was that at the same time as the interview ? Tes, they had a meeting there then ; that was
the second or third meeting. I was introduced to the meeting as a visitor on that occasion, Mr. Buchanan
probably having told them something about me before I was introduced. The next day I saw in the paper
a report of the meeting, in which it was stated that I said I represented a number of Chinese and so on,
but I did not say anything like that. But that does not matter. I was at the meeting, and I was requested
to make a speech, and I did say something about the matter.
12493. Give us some account of what you said ? I said I was very pleased to see that such a League had
been formed for the suppression of gambling ; and I pointed out. that if the League had been formed for
the purpose of putting down gambling simply without calling itself the " Anti-Chinese" Gambling League,
it would have been more generally admired ; but I hoped they would succeed, and so on. I regretted
that in a city like thin such an evil should be allowed to go on, and informed them that in China the
gambling
342 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MIOTTTE8 OF EVIDENCE.
W. W. gambling suppression laws were very strict ; some of the old offenders having been even beheaded for
wn. gambling. I also said I was of opinion that if the Government took the proper steps there would be no
28 Nov~1891 *ifficulty in puling it down.
"' " 12494. Were you made a member of the League that night ? Yes, when the meeting was over.
12495. Did you see Mr. Nock there ? I did not know the names of the gentlemen — they were strangers
to me.
12496. You spoke to a number of the members afterwards privately, did you not ? Yes ; there was a
general conversation, over a drink.
12497. And they were very glad at your having come to the meeting to help them, I suppose ? Yes.
13498. It was a great satisfaction to them ? They seemed to think so.
12499. Did you not say to Mr. Buchanan that you represented twenty-five, or a number of Chinese
merchants, who were desirous of aiding in the suppression of Chinese gambling ? Not exactly that. I
said to him that it was not only myself, but many more — perhaps I said twenty-five at a guess — of my
countrymen agreed with me in my view of this matter.
12500. The Chinese merchants, as a matter of fact, are desirous of suppressing this gambling, are they
not ? They seem to be so.
12501. And you had these in your mind when you said you represented them, or when you said that
others of your countrymen would aid in the suppression of gambling ? Yes.
12502. Now, give us the names — a dozen or twenty if you like — of some of those whom you either said
you represented, or whom you thought you could get to assist the League ? Cheuk Wall, Chong Lum,
Ting Sang, Ah Sing, Sey Ying, Yee Lum, Liy Tong, Groo Lun.
12503. Any more ? I cannot remember the names of any more.
,12504. Are those you have mentioned the names of the principal Chinese in Sydney ? I do not know
what you mean by principal ; they are interested in store business and so on.
12505. In Sydney ? Yes.
12506. In what part — any of them in Lower George-street ? Some of them ; and some in Goulburn-
street, and some in "Waterloo.
12507. You cannot think of any more names now ? No.
12508. Did you not say that these Chinese merchants had deputed you to attend the meetings of the
League? I cannot remember.
12509. Think now ? I did not say that at the meeting.
12510. Did you say to any of the officers of the League at any time that you represented twenty-five
Chinese storekeepers or merchants ? I cannot remember now. I remember that I said nothing about it
at the meeting.
12511. Did you say it to any of the officers either before or after you were at the meeting ? I do not
remember.
12512. Supposing that one of the officers of the League has sworn that you stated you represented twenty-
five Chinese merchants, would he be stating the truth or not ? It might be the truth.
12513. Do you mean to say you cannot remember whether you were deputed to take that course or not ?
I had no such thing in my mind at the time.
12514. Do you mean to say that you cannot remember whether you told the officers of the League, or any
* one of them, that you were deputed by twenty-five Chinese merchants to represent them at the meeting ?
Well, you see, it is now so many months ago, I have to think over what I said.
12515. It is about three months ago, and there ought to be no difficulty in carrying your memory back
to that extent on such a plain matter of fact. Did you not represent to any of the officers of the League
that you were deputed to represent these people of whom you have spoken ? Not that night.
12516. On that or any other night did you tell the officers that — I want yes or no to that question ?
Yes ; but I wish you to understand that I cannot recollect exactly.
12517. I asked you did you tell the officers of the League at any time that you represented twenty-five
Chinese merchants, and that you had been deputed to attend that meeting, on their account, and you
answer yes to that question ? Yes.
12518. Very well. Now, what were your instructions from the principals of those twenty-fire merchants
whom you represented ? It seems to me that it is necessary for me to make an explanation. It will not
take two minutes.
12519. Very well — explain ? The question you asked me was something about my being deputed to go
down to join the Anti-Chinese Gambling League. Well, the Chinese, in doing business of this kind, do
not authorise a man as the English people would do — that is, appoint a representative. No matter what
the business, the Chinese do not appoint a representative in that way. On this occasion we were having
a talk together about the Anti-Gambling League, and it seemed to me that they all approved of a measure
like that, and I told them I would give my services, and help the League to the best of my ability. My
friends seemed to approve of that, and to think it would be a good thing for our own community, and
for the whole of the city.
12520. As a matter of fact, they practically did give you authority, according to your own statement, to
attend the meeting, but left you to take your own action? I was not commissioned to go, but I told
them I was going to the meeting.
12521. They approved of your going ? They admired me — that is all.
12522. Well, you have made your explanation. Now, did your friends give you any instructions as to
what you were to do at the meeting ? They did say, " If you go there and do anything of this kind, you
have to be very careful." They told me that a long time ago people had taken such steps, and were
threatened, and therefore I ought to be very careful.
12523. Did they say to you that they would subscribe to the funds of the Anti-Chinese Gambling
League ? Not at that meeting.
12524. Did they at any time ? At one time I said I did not know whether the League would do any-
thing or not ; that I would give my services, but if anything were done I suppose it would cost some money.
12525. Did they authorise you to pay any money ? No.
12526. Or did they say they would help the funds at all ? I put the question in this way, that if I joined
the League and gave my services in that way, perhaps someone will try to bring something up against
me, and that it would very likely cost money to defend myself. Then they said that if anything unplea-
sant arose in that way of course they would help me. 12527.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. *"**
12527. Is there any society out of the funds of which they could have helped you ? No. f _ Goldtowii
12528. Any monetary assistance they might have given you would have come out of their individual ^^^1
pockets ? I think so. S8NovTl891.
12529. They did not tell you that they would subscribe to the funds of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ?
They said they would be happy to do all I asked them to do.
12530. Did you ask them to subscribe to the funds of the League ? I did not ask at that time.
12531. Did you not say at the meeting, or to Mr. Buchanan privately, that twenty-five friends of yours
would subscribe to the funds ? That was my opinion— that I could get it.
12532. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Buchanan about the police ? I did say that the gambling
that was now existing in the city of Sydney was owing to the laxity of the Government or the police. I
think I said that at the meeting too.
12533. Did you say that you had reason to believe that your countrymen paid money to the police to
avoid prosecution ? No.
12534. Are you quite sure that you did not say anything about that ? I am.
12535. Did you say that there was an assurance fund collected by the gambling-houses amongst the
Chinese for the purpose of paying the fines of those who might be brought before the Court by the police?
No.
12536. You will swear positively to that ? Yes.
12537. Will you swear positively that you did not say to Mr. Buchanan that money was subscribed by
the Chinese gamblers, or keepers of Chinese gambling-houses, for the purpose of bribing the police ? I
remember a question was put to me about that, and I said I did not know, that it might be true, or it
might not.
12538. You will swear that you never told him that it was within your knowledge that money was sub-
scribed by the Chinese gamblers for the purpose of subsidising the police ? Yes ; I did not tell him that.
12539. And you will swear that you never offered to bring to Mr. Buchanan the man who collected the
money to bribe the police ? I will.
12540. And if Mr. Buchanan swore these things that I am speaking of now he would not be telling the
truth — you never told him any such things ? I did not say anything to that effect.
12541. Did you offer to go to the Premier with the deputation from the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ?
I did not offer to go, but I was asked, and I did not object.
12542. And will you swear that you did not, on two or three occasions at the meetings of the, League,
offer to hand over £25, on behalf of twenty -five Chinese whom you said you represented, as a contribution
to the funds of the League ? I did not do so.
12543. Did you represent yourself as a silk-merchant to Mr. Buchanan ? Yes ; I told him that I was a
tea and silk merchant.
12544. Do you know Moy Ping ? Yes, 1 know him.
12545. Is he a friend of yours ? Yes.
12546. Now, is it not a fact that Moy Ping instructed you to go and attend that meeting ? No.
12547. Did his cousin come to you and have a conversation with you on the subject ? No.
12548. Did the relative of any of the Chinese gamblers in Lower George-street come to you upon the
subject and suggest that you should attend the meeting ? No.
12549. Did any Chinese merchant, or anyone in Lower George-street, request or suggest that you should
attend that meeting ? No.
12550. Have you not sworn that some of those who met and conversed on this, subject with you were
merchants, and resided in Lower George-street ? Yes, but they did not suggest that to me.
12551. Well, did they approve ? Yes.
12552. Then the suggestion came from you, and they approved of it ? Yes.
12553. Do you know the firm of On Chong & Co. ? Yes.
12554. Did they have anything to do with the matter ? No.
12555. Have you had any business connection with any of the respectable Chinese merchants in Lower
George-street at all ? I have had interpreting business, and sometimes done writing for them.
12556. You have never had any trade with them ? Yes, a little. /
12557. Did you owe any of them any money in connection with your business ? No.
12558. And you do not now ? No. They did not supply me with goods.
12559. Now, did you attend at the Police Court lately and pay the fines of your countrymen who were
prosecuted ? Yes.
12560. How came you to do that — under what circumstances ? Moy Ping asked me to go. I had advised
him that the best thing to do was to plead guilty.
12561. Where did you get the money to pay the fines ? Moy Ping gave it to me. He said he did not
like to be seen in the office. He gave me the money in front of the Court-house. We went together in
a cab.
12562. That was after you had joined the Anti-Chinese League ? Yes.
12563. Are you intimately acquainted with Moy Ping ? Not very intimately. We are just ordinary
friends.
12564. How came Moy Ping to employ you on that occasion ; — he did not employ you on that occasion ?
He did not employ me. I advised him to plead guilty.
12565. Did he ask you for your advice ? He did not.
12566. Where did you meet him ? I met him, I think, in George- street, near Goulburn-street, by
accident. He was in a cab at the time, and he stopped the cab when he saw me.
12567. Was he not looking for you ? I do not know.
12568. Did he say he was? He did not say so. It was, on a Sunday, and there were not many
people passing by. We stopped at the corner of a street and had a chat. I said, " I hear that a raid took
place last night at your place," and he said, " Yes, what I am going to do I do not know." I said, the
best thing in such a case was to plead guilty, as it would save a lot of trouble. That was the advice I
gave him. He did not ask me.
12569. Is that all that occurred ? Yes.
12570. Then how came you to attend the Court the next day ? He asked me to. There was another
man in the cab with him, and Moy Ping told the man to go with me to a lawyer (Joe Lowe), and instruct
him to go and plead guilty for the prisoners when the case came on. 12571.
341 CHINESE GAMMLISG COMMISSION — MINl'TKS OF EVIDENCE.
OU
\V. W. 12571. Did not you tell Mr. Buchanan that you could not give him the names of the twenty-five men yo
Goldtown. Baj,j y0U repreSented, as they did not wish their names to bo disclosed to their countrymen ? I told Mr.
. /^^^^1 Buchanan that I would get some people to assist me, and he asked who they were. I told him that their
28 Nov. ,1891. nameg must not be mentioned; nor did I want my own name mentioned if I should say anything at
the meeting.
12572. If your friends objected to their names being mentioned, what reason had they if thoy were not
going to pay any money into the funds — you have sworn that they never authorised you to pay any sub-
scription to the League ? Tes.
12573. Then why should they object to their names being disclosed ? That was my opinion.
12574. Their names could not appear if they did not pay any money ? I told him that neither my name,
nor my supporters' name, ought to appear.
12575. You have given some of the names of the Chinese who you say were favourable to your action in
connection with the Chinese gambling question ? Tes.
12576. Now, is it not a fact that some of them are gamblers ? Not that I know of— they may be, of
course, but not to my knowledge. .
12577. Tou will swear positively that you do not know? I will. They are all interested in store business.
12578. "Would you be surprised" to learn that they were gamblers ? Tes ; I would be.
12579. "When did you leave Sydney for Brisbane ? About the 13th or 14th of September, I think.
12580. "Who employed you to go to Brisbane ? Nobody.
12581. What did you go there for ? To avoid the people talking too much about me. Some of them
even threatened to have my life. But, as a rule, I go away every year to enjoy myself somewhere.
12582. But your chief reason for going away on this occasion was to avoid gossip going on about you, and
in consequence of certain threats that had been made ? Tes.
12583. Now, who was it threatened you ? Lee Kum, for one.
12584. Anyone else ? Cheang Sow.
12585. Anyone else ? Lin Man ; and I think two or three more, but I forget.
12586. What are these people who threatened you ? I do not know.
12587. Are they gamblers ? Well, I have never seen them gambling, but I have heard of them doing so.
12588. Are they generally supposed to be gamblers ? Tes ; I think so.
12589. "What did they threaten you for ? For taking an interest in the Anti-Chinese Gambling League.
12590. Did you on going away travel right through to Brisbane ? Tes.
12591. Tou did not stop at Emmaville ? Tes.
12592. What did you do when you went to Brisbane ? I simply enjoyed myself travelling about — not
only in Brisbane but in other places in Queensland.
12593. Tou came back by rail ? Tes.
12594. Did you travel right through without stopping anywhere ? Tes.
12595. Did you get any letters from Sydney while you were away ? No.
12596. Will you swear that you did not get a letter about this Commission ? No ; I saw it in the paper.
12597. "What paper ? The Sydney Morning Herald, I think.
12598. What did you see in the Morning Herald ? About five gentlemen being appointed. It was about
a fortnight after I got to Brisbane. I was stopping at the " Metropolitan Hotel," and I read that in the
paper one morning.
12599. Tou say you left Sydney about the 14th September ? Tes.
12600. And a fortnight after that you saw something in the Herald about the appointment of this Com-
mission ? It might be less than a fortnight, perhaps. But it seems to me that it was some time after I
left Sydney.
12601. Would you be surprised to learn that nothing appeared in the Herald about this Commission a
week after you left, from which, indeed, it would seem that you have concocted this story you have been
telling me ? It was either in the Morning Herald or the Daily Telegrapli. I saw the appointment of the
Commission in the news columns, and the names were mentioned.
12602. Now, do you not know, as a matter of fact, that this Commission was appointed on the 23rd of
August, and therefore you must have known of its existence before you left for Brisbane ? No ; I have
said that I was away three months. Perhaps I have mistaken the name of the month. It may have been
August that I left Sydney for Brisbane.
12603. It appears to me that you have been concocting a story. "Will you swear that you have not
received letters from Sydney about this Commission, since you have been away ? Tes, I will swear it.
12604. Tou will swear that the Commission was never mentioned to you ? Not in any letter.
12605. "When did you return to Sydney ? Testerday week.
12606. Did you write to any one in Sydney from Brisbane ? I wrote to my cousin, Ah Sing.
12607. Where does he live ? In Willoughby. He has got a garden.
12608. Did you write to anvone else ? Tes, I wrote to Saw King.
12609. Did you write to Lee On ? No.
12610. Do you know Lee On's place in Groulburn-street ? I know a place of that name.
12611. Did you write to him or to that place ? I did not write to Lee On.
12612. I suppose you know that Lee On's place is a gambling-house ? Tes.
12613. Are you not a partner in it ? No, I am not.
12614. And never were ? I never was.
12615. Did you never have a share in any gambling-house, or any pak-ah-pu business in Sydney ? No.
12616. And of course you would not hold a share ? No.
12617. How came you to be in the place where I saw you yesterday ? I was visiting.
12618. That is a gambling-house ? Tes ; but there was no gambling going on.
12619. Tou admit it is a gambling-house ? Tes.
12620. Then how came you to be staying there yesterday, holding the principles you profess ? I was
requested to have my tea there with a storekeeper from Waterloo. Since my return from Brisbane I have
been invited to take tea at one or other of my countrymen's places.
12621. Is it not a fact that you have stayed there constantly since you returned from Brisbane ? No.
12622. Where do you stay ? At Hip War & Co.'s place, where I used to keep my school, at Alexandria.
12623. Have you stopped there every night? Tes.
12624.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTER OP EVIDENCE. 345
12621. Will you swear that you have not attended the gaming-houses, and particularly the one in W. W.
Groulburn-street, since your return from Brisbane ? I have been there, but not to sleep. Q-oldtown.
12625. "Will you swear that you have not been there when the game has been in progress — I want you to ^g^^^iggi
be very careful ? I have been there sometimes, to have a conversation, that is all.
12626. Have you remonstrated with the keeper of that establishment, and pointed out to him the evil of
gambling ? I always give them lectures like that.
12627. "When we came into that place yesterday why did you hold your head down, as if you did not
wish to be seen ? I was at my tea, having my wine ; you cannot hold your head up when you are having
your wine.
12628. "Well, I generally do so? But we have to use our chop-sticks and little wine caps; besides it
is very impolite to look around when you are eating at a Chinese" table.
12629. Did you do any business at Brisbane at all ? No.
12630. Now, will you swear that you were not sent away from Sydney by some of the Chinese gamblers
— that you were not provided with funds by them to go away ? 1 was not.
12631. You will positively swear that ? Yes.
12632. "What would the travelling and other expenses of a gay young man like yourself amount to in a
trip to Brisbane and back, extending over a period of three' months ? I think about £50 or £60.
12633. "Where did you get that money ? By saving.
12634. Did you keep your money in a bank ? No.
12635. "Where did you keep it ? In my pocket, and in my cases.
12636. Did you take your money away in notes or gold ? Some notes and some gold.
12637. How long were you saving up that £50 or £60? "Well, I have always some money by me.
12638. Have you got any more money ? No.
12639. Do you not make any money "at " fan-tan " ? Certainly not.
12640. I mean as a partner in a fan-tan shop, not as a player. Of course you could not make any money
in playing the game, could you ? Well, I suppose 1 could if J staked any money, and I was lucky.
12641. Are not the chances all against the player ? Not all against, I should say.
12642. You would not pursue it for a living, would you ? If 1 were that sort of a man I would. It
simply depends on luck, that is all ; it is just the same as you English people going to the races.
12643. Now, do you not think it was very hard that you should have been put to the expense of £50 or
£60 in going away from .Sydney, as you say, by reason of your noble efforts to suppress gambling for
the saving of your countrymen. ? I cannot help it.
12644. Do you not think that the Anti-Chinese (rambling League should come forward and help you, as
to part of that expense at least ? I do not know.
12645. Did you ever inform them that you had io leave Sydney by reason of the action you took in con-
nection with that League ? No.
12646. Do you think that would have been a reasonable course to pursue, seeing that you have been, as
you say, put to this inconvenience and expense, in consequence of your advocacy of their views? Well,
it seemed to me that the members of the League, manv of them, were rather rough, and disagreeable to
a certain extent.
12647. Do you think they are shrewd clever men ? It seems to me that I should not be likely to get
any assistance from th*em ; although they promised me all the assistance in their power.
1264S. You think that, ordinarily speaking, you would have had some claim upon the League for apart of
your expenses ? No ; I did not expect anything from them, for 1 could not legally claim it.
12649. You never informed them that you had been threatened, and that you had to leave Sydney in
consequence of your advocacy of their objects ? I told them I had been threatened.
12650. Did you tell them before you left Sydney that you had to leave in consequence of those threats ?
Perhaps during the course of conversation I may have said something about it ; I cannot remember
distinctly.
[The further examination of the witness was postponed till the Monday following at 1030 o'clock.]
MONDAY, 30 NOVEMBER, 1891.
$rcs£ttt: —
The Mayor op Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J. P.), President.
ERANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., .LP., Yice-Peesidest.
EAMSEY McKXLLOP, Esq., | QUONG- TART, Esq..
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
William Wong G-oldtown further examined : — ■
12651. President.'] You remember the date of that deputation that waited upon Sir Henry Parkes w. \V.
about the gambling carried on by the Chinese in Sydney ? No ; I forget the date. Goldtown.
12652. It was on the 30th July ; you were in Sydney at that time, were you not ? Yes. ^T^-^
12653. Do you remember a meeting being called at Sun Sam Kee's shortly after ? I know that there 30 Nov., 1891.
was some meeting amongst the Chinese perhaps a little before, perhaps a little after.
12654. But do you recollect any meeting at all at Sun Sam War's ? Well, I have heard of one.
12655. Were you present at that meeting ? No.
12656. You were not present ?
12657. If anyone swore that you were present they would not be telling the truth then ? At what
meeting ? Which one, Sun Sam Kee's or Sun Sam War's ?
12658 At any meeting at Sun Sam War's ? Tell me the subject that the meeting was called to discuss ?
.12659. Well, first answer me this question: Were you ever at a meeting at Sun Sam War's in your life ?
12660. What was the meeting about? I think that perhaps a little seclusion would assist you in answer-
ing these questions. If I were to let you go and reflect in Darlinghurst gaol it might improve your
memory? No I have to think over things. I don't understand exactly what vou sav.
' 272— 2 X 12661.
34,6
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINFTES OF ETIDENCE
Goldtown. 12661. Well if you don't answer my questions I am afraid that I shall have to send you there ? Why ? I
/^^_a^— ^ am going to answer you, if I understand you.
30 Nov., 1891. 12602. Well don't take such a long time about it. I asked you a very simple question — if ever you
attended a meeting at Sun Sam War's place inyour life? And I said " Yes."
12G63. After a great deal of hesitation you did," and then I asked you what the meeting was about, and
you pretended that you did not remember ? Well I have attended a great many meetings at different
places, and I might get mixed as to what they were all about.
12664. Was it for the propagation of Christianity in China ? No.
12065. Well what was it about? Two subjects were discussed at that meeting — one was about the
general appearance of the Chinese in Sydney, and the other was about the Anti-Chinese Gambling
League.
12666. Then that meeting must have been held after the establishment of the Anti-Chincso Gambling
League ? Yes.
12067. Therefore it must have been some time in July or August of this year ? Yes.
12668. Then you acknowledge that you were there ? Yes.
12669. You know that you said just now that you were not present at a meeting of the Anti-Chinese
Gambling League ; anyhow you now recollect that you were there ; — tell us what happened at that
meeting ? They were talking about a Chinese gentleman having been admitted to the meeting. They
saw it in the paper, and they asked whether it was I, because they said that I had been seen there. I
said, " Yes." Then they asked me what the Anti-Chinese Gambling League were going to do. " Well," I
said, " I do not know much, because, although I have been at the meeting, all I know is what you have
seen in the papers, that the members of the League are trying to get assistance from the Government to
stop gambling."
12670. That was the general scope of the meeting ? Yes ; and they said to me, " What made you go to
the meeting and join the League "? I replied that I thought that it was for the good of the public
generally, because I am against gambling, you know. Then some of them had an argument, and it
appeared to me that there was some confusion, and I left during the confusion.
12671. Is it not a fact that some of those who were at the meeting were gamblers ? Yes.
12672. The probability is that they were all gamblers, I suppose ? I cannot say that ; but I think that
some were.
12673. Well, how was it that you, an anti-Chinese gambling man, were there ? Well, they asked me to
go without telling me the subject of the meeting. As a rule, I am asked to attend all meetings of the
Chinese here, whatever they may be about.
12674. Did they not'aceuse you of telling the Anti-Chinese Gambling League that deductions were made
from the winnings of the banker for a certain purpose ? Well, they asked me about it, but I told them
that I did not say anything about it in the meeting of the League. Indeed, I heard no such thing
said at all.
12675. You are quite sure that you did not admit having mentioned to the League that 2d. in the £ was
deducted from the winnings of the bank for the purpose of assisting poor Chinamen ? I did not say so
myself.
12676. And if any person says that you did it would be untrue ? Yes.
12677. Are you quite sure ? Yes ; I am quite sure. *
12678. Did they at that meeting accuse you of being a spy and an informer ? No ; nobody said that I
was a spy. They might have done in my absence, but they did not in my presence. All the members of
the League seemed to receive me on very intimate terms.
12679. What League are you speaking of ; — the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Yes ; none of them
said anything against me.
12680. But when I asked you if you were accused of being a spy, I meant by your own countrymen at
Sun Sam War's ? A spy, about what ?
12681. A spy upon them ? No ; I was invited to the meeting.
12682. Did they tell you at the meeting that you had better leave Sydney for a little while ? They did
not tell me that.
12683. And yet you left Sydney because you were afraid? Yes, I was afraid.
12684. But if you were afraid why did you go to that meeting where most of your countrymen were
assembled? Because after that meeting something worse was said about me. Some people were trying
to take my life, and so on.
12685. Of whom were you afraid ? I was afraid of Robert Lee Kum, Cheang Show, and Lee Man.
12686. Are they members of a secret society ? I do not know.
12687. Will you swear that they are not members of a society called the Loon Ye Tong ? They are not
as far as I am aware.
12688. Do you know of the existence of any Chinese societies in Sydney? Yes.
12689. Give us the names of them ? One is called the Hung Fook Tong, and its object is the removal
of dead bodies to China, and so on.
12690. Yes— do you know of any more ? There is the Koong Ye Tong.
12691 . Is there a society called the Loon Ye Tong ? Well, I do not know. There is one belonging to
the Hung Shang district, in China. The people from that district have formed a society among themselves
and subscribe money.
12692. Yes. Do you mean to tell me that you do not know of a society called the Loon Ye Tong.. If
you can tell the truth, please, oblige us by doing so ? Yes ; I am willing to tell you anything that I
know. I never knew of that society.
12693^ I want you to cudgel your brains and see if you cannot remember having heard of the Loon Ye
Tong ? No, I cannot say whether such a society is in existence or not.
12694. You will swear that you do not know anything about a society called the Loon Ye Tong ? Well,
I may have heard of it, but I cannot tell you anything about it.
12695. You do not know what any of its objects are — whether it is to construct a railway to the moon, or
to subsidise a line of mail steamers between Sydney and Hongkong ? No, I do not.
12696. You do not know anything about it ? About what ?
12697. About the Loon Ye Tong ? No, I cannot say that I do.
12698. Do you know Mr. Way Kee ? Yes. 12699.
.CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 347
12699. "Was he not one of the officers of the Loon Te Tong ? I do not know. W. W.
12700. I suppose that all the Chinese societies that you do know of have very laudable objects in view ? Cf°ldt01!rP'
Most of the societies that I know anything about were formed for the purpose of assisting in removing „r^~A~TT^,
dead bones to China. & 30 Nov., 1891*.
12701. I see. Is there any Chinese society existing that has for its aims the payment of fines for its
members when convicted at the Police Courts ? I never heard of anything of the kind. Generally when
cases are brought against Chinamen in Court their countrymen subscribe to pay the expenses, and some-
times even to pay the lines.
12702. Is it a fact that you advisod some of your countrymen who keep gambling-houses in Goulburn-
street to pay a sum of money to the police to get them off? No.
12703. You are quite sure that you never told them to bribe the police ? Quite sure.
12704. Have you ever acted as agent for the letting of houses to the Chinese ? No.
12705. Never acted as interpreter when a Chinaman has been taking a house from a white man in
Lower George-street or Goulburn-street ? Yes ; I have acted as interpreter rn one or two occasions.
12706. "When one of your countrymen would want to take a shop in Lower George-street or Goulburn-
street, you have acted as interpreter ? Ycfe.
12707. Do you remember whether, to your knowledge, your countrymen have had to pay a bonus to the
landlord for being allowed to take the house ;— by a bonus I mean a sum of money in addition to the
rent ? Not in the cases that I have been alluding to.
12708. Irrespective of those cases, have you ever heard of any of your countrymen having had to pay a
bonus to a landlord in order to get a house instead of a white man? No ; I have never heard of any-
thing of the kind. I have heard that they have sometimes had to pay for the fixtures, and so on.
12709. And would the tenants have to pay considerably above the value of the fixtures or what ? Weil,
I do not know.
12710. Do you know Mr. Jack Armstrong, a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Yes.
12711. Did you meet him very often ? After I joined the League ?
12712. Yes ? About six or seven times.
12713. Did you represent him that you were a Consul of China ? No.
12714. And if he swore that you said that you represented twenty-five Chinese merchants w^o had asked
you to join the League for the purpose of assisting its objects, he would be saying what is untrue ?
Quite so.
12715. And if he said that you knew that 2d. in the shilling was stopped from the prize fund at the
gaming-houses, for the purpose of bribing the police, that would be untrue? That would be untrue.
12716. And if he swore that you said that this was a fund that was collected weekly from certain
Chinese at the different gambling-houses for that purpose, that would bo untrue ? Quite so ; it would bo
untrue ; I never said anything of the kind.
12717. And if he swore that you said that you actually knew the man who collected the money for that
purpose it would also be untrue ? Yes.
,12718. And is it not true that you tendered £25 to the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? It is not true.
I never tendered £25 to it.
12719. And if it is said that you tendered £25 for the purpose of assisting the League, and that it was
tendered on behalf of these Chinese gentlemen, that would be untrue ? Quite untrue. The fee of the
League is only 2s. Gd., and why should I go and offer them £25.
12720. Yon were informed by Mr. Armstrong were you not that the fee was 2s. 6d. ? Yes, and I gave
2s. 6d. to the,League.
12721. Did you tender twenty-five half-crowns ? No, only one half-crown for myself. I gave £1 to Mr.
Buchanan, the treasurer, and he gave me the change.
12722. You never tendered the £25 for these Chinese gentlemen, and said that you must keep their names
secret, because there was a secret society, and if it was known that they had been subscribing to the
-League their lives would be in danger ? No, it is untrue.
12723. Were you ever asked by Mr. Armstrong, or any other member of the society, to make an affidavit
of certain statements that you made ? Yes ; Mr. Armstrong, Mr. Christensen, and Mr. Buchanan, three
of them, were present at the time. I was late for the meeting that night. It was on a Friday night, I
think. The meeting was over when I arrived. They asked me if I had seen the report of the deputation in.
the newspaper, and what I thought of it, and so on. I said, " I don't know anything about it ; where did
you get this information from?" They said, " We got it from a short stout man." I said, " What is his
name ?" They did not give me his name however, but they said, " We are very sorry that you were not at
the deputation." I said, " Why ?" They said, " Because we want you to realise our standing before Sir
Henry Parkes." I said, " How could I do so." Then Mr. Armstrong took me aside and said, " We
made all these statements in the presence of Sir Henry Parkes, and Sir Henry Parkes said. ' Who
is your informer' ? and as you are a Chinaman and go about amongst the Chinese here we thought that
you must know all about it, and that no better name could be given ; so we gave your name to Sir
Henry Parkes."
12724. Well, I will stop you there ; — you must answer " Yes" or " IN o to these questions — Did they not
ask you to make an affidavit ? They asked me to make a written statement.
12725. And did you make it or not ? I refused to make it.
12726. If you were desirous of suppressing gambling why did you refuse to make it ? They wanted to
dictate to me what I should writedown.
12727. But they would have taken a modification of that statement ; — they would have taken any state-
ment you had liked to make that would have shown up the evil of Chinese gambling ; — did you offer
to make any such modified statement ? Well, if they had not insisted that the statement should have
reference to the alleged bribery of the police, and to the deduction of 2d. in the £ for a defence fund, I
would have done anything that I could to help them to suppress gambling.
12728. But you say" that you refused to make a written statement ? I did not refuse to make any written
statement. I refused to make that particular statement— the statement that they wanted to dictate to me.
12729. Did you volunteer to make any modified statement ? Yes, I did volunteer.
12730. And they never drew any modified statement up for you to sign ? I said that I would make any
statement, but not that kind of statement.
12731. AVhat particular parts of that statement did you object to ? I objected to what they wanted me
to say about the bribery. 12732.
318 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINITES OF EVIDENCE.
12732. You had no cause to think there was bribery, and therefore you objected to that? Exactly ; I
could not furnish any proof of it.
12733. And what other part did you object to ? I objected to what they wanted me to say about the
' 0T'' ' subscription of funds from the winnings of the gaming-tables.
12734. Did you object to anything else ? No ; I think that was all.
12735. Do you know Mr. E. Y. Kelly, of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? The Secretary ! Yes, I
know him.
12736. Did you inform Mr. li. Y. Kelly that you knew of one Chinaman who had remitted some very large
sums of money home to China — who had in fact sent home £60,000 in one year, representing the profits
accruing to him during that period from the gaming-house of which he was the proprietor? No.
12737. Did you tell him that you knew of a syndicate of Chinamen who had remitted that sum of money,
or any large sum of money, to China? No.
12738. Had you any conversation to that effect with Mr. Kelly, or with any other member of the
League ? No.
12739. No conversation about any sum of money being sent homo as the profits of gaming ? No.
12740. If Mr. Kelly has told the Commission that you informed the Anti-Chinese Gambling League that
the police were bribed by chests of tea, or sums of money, would that be true? It would be untrue if
he said that I said it.
12741. "Well, would it be untrue if he had sworn that you told the League that somebody had informed
you that that was the case ? That would be untrue too.
12742. You did not tell him that somebody had informed you that the police were bribed. by your
countrymen ? "Well, I have heard some people talking about it, but I do not know myself whether it
is true.
12743. Have you heard from your own countrymen that they have paid money to the police for the
purpose of bribing them not to interfere with gambling ? Well, there was some talk about it.
12744. Did any of the proprietors of Chinese gambling-houses in Lower George-street say so to you ? No.
12745. Did any of the Chinese gamblers in Goulburn-street say anything about it to you? No.
12746. Well, who did tell you ? I forget who told me. It was said in the course of conversation when
several of us were sitting together smoking. Some of them said that they thought there must be some-
thing in it, as there were so many gambling-shops-, and they were allowed to carry on operations without
interruption.
12747. What sort of people were they who told you this ; — were they Chinese gardeners from Botany or
North Shore ? I think most of them were hawkers.
12748. At all events it was gossip amongst them? Yes.
12749. But you are prepared to swear that you did not know of any of your countrymen having paid
money or made presents of any kind to the police, to allow them to gamble with impunity? I will
swear that.
12750. And if Mr. 11. V. Kelly has sworn that you said you would take any member of the Anti-Chinese
Gambling League round, and show him where the weekly dividends were paid for the purpose of corrupting
the police, that would be untrue ? I beg your pardon, sir.
J 2751. If Mr. Kelly has sworn that you said you would take any member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling
League round, and show him where the weekly dividends were paid for the purpose of corrupting the
police, that would be untrue ? It would be untrue.
12752. Have you attended any meeting of the Chinese since that meeting at Sun Sam War's in Julv
last? No ; that is the last that I have been to.
12753. Can you tell me whether you are aware of any of your countrymen losing large sums of money in
those fan-tan shops ? Well, some have lost as much as £20 or £30. "
12754. Do you know of any of them having made large sums of money through gambling ? Some have
won, and some have lost.
12755. Tell me whether the owners of the fan-tan places (say) in Lower George-street make large
profits out of gambling ? Some of them make some money, others do not.
12756. Have these who have made money made a lot ? I cannot say, but seeing that some of them have
been existing for years, they must have made some money. On the other hand, as some only last one
month, and some only two months, it seems to me that they must have lost.
12757. Do you know Robert Lee Kum ? Yes.
12758. Have you ever had any monetary transactions with him ? No.
12759. Never borrowed any money of him ? No.
.12760. Quite sure ? Quite sure.
12761. Did you ever lose any money yourself ? No.
12762. If anyone has sworn that you lost £20, or £30, or £40, by gambling, would he be swearing falsely ?
Yes ; that is false.
12763. You never lost £30 by gambling in your life ? No ; I have never played fan-tan in Sydney.
12764. Then if anyone has said that Mr. Goldtown was a great gambler he would be swearing falsely,
would he ? Yes ; that is false.
12765. And yet you live almost continually in these gambling-houses ? No.
12766. Well, you are very frequently there? Well, I have to frequent them. I often act as interpreter
for my countrymen, and that is where I meet people, and I often sit down and chat with them there.
12767. Then, although you go into these gambling-houses, you yourself never embark in the game ?
No.
12768. But is that not because you are a partner ? No, I am not a partner.
12769. You will swear that you have no interest in the place in Goulburn-street in which we found you
the other day ? I have no interest in it whatever.
12770. Nor in any other ? No.
12771. You do not work on commission for any of these gambling-houses? No.
12772. You will swear positively that you do not ? I will swear positively that I. do not.
12773. And you will swear that the proprietor of Lee On's, in Goulburn-street, is not a partner of yours
m any sense of the word ? No ; I have no connection with him whatever.
12774. Have you had any communication with the police since you returned from Brisbane ? No.
12775
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MIXUTES OE EA'IDENCE. 349
12775. Can you give us any information as to the state of the Chinese at Hay ? I have never been to w- w
Hay. J Goldtown.
12776. Have you been to Narrandera, where there is a numerous Chinese camp ? No. 30Nov^l891
12777. Do you know anything about the camp at Emmaville ? Yes, I have been there. " *
12778. "When were you last at Emmaville ? llather more than three months ago.
12779. What business had you there ? It was as I was going to Brisbane that I called there.
12780. Are there many of your countrymen there ? Tes ; formerly there were some hundreds there
belonging to the same district in China as my father, but now there are only about fifty-seven or fifty-eight.
12781. Is there much gambling going on there ? When I was there there was not.
12782. No fan-tan ? Oh, there were some fan-tan-shops up there.
12783. Patronised by Europeans very largely, I suppose ? No.
12784. Were they confined to Chinese players ? As far as I could ascertain.
12785. Well, would a population of fifty-seven Chinamen support them ? No ; I did not finish my state-
ment. There are about fifty-seven or fifty-eight Chinese there belonging to the same district as my father,
I was going to say.
12786. I want to know how many Chinese are there altogether ? Oh. I suppose there would be between
300 and 400 Chinamen in Emmaville altogether.
1-2787. Well, could the 300 or 400 Chinese keep the fan-tau-sliops going themselves ? I think they could.
12788. Europeans do not go in there to gamble ? Well, I did not see anv.
12789. Were you long there ? I was there one day and two nights.
12790. You do not know much about the place then ? I was there about two years ago on account of a
case in which I was engaged as interpreter. I settled it.
12791 . Have the Chinese a camp to themselves there ? Yes ; there is a Chinatown.
12792. Are there many white women there ? No ; I do not think so.
12793. Did you live in the camp yourself? No ; I was staying in the hotel.
12794. Did you ever stay at No. 2 Coffee Palace, Sydney ? Yes.
12795. Did you ever cash a cheque there when you had no funds in the bank to meet it ? Tes ; and I
told him that I gave him the cheque in good faith, and that he must give it back to me, and I would then
pay him the amount in cash. The proprietor was a good friend of mine, and had been working in my place.
12796. What was the amount of the cheque ? £4 10s.
12797. Did he give you any change, or was the whole £4 10s. due to the Coffee Palace people ? Oh, I
borrowed the money.
12798. You gave him your cheque for £4 10s., and he gave you £4 10s. in cash ? Yes ; and I told him
not to present it at the bank — that it was only a pledge of good faith.
] 2799. Who cashed the cheque for you ? Mr. Puig.
12800. When was he to present it ? In a couple of weeks.
12801. Yon will swear that he knew that the money would not be paid if he. presented it at once ? Yes ;
I told him so.
12802. Will you swear that the police were not communicated with upon the subject ? Well, I do not
know that he mentioned it to the police.
12803. Did he ever prosecute you for it? No ; subsequently I paid the money, and he sent me back the
cheque.
12804. How long after ? Two or three weeks after.
12805. Will you swear that he had not reason to believe that you were going to defraud him, and
informed the police about it ? I do not think that he thought I was going to defraud him.
12806. Will you swear that he did not tell the police about it ? How can 1 possibly know that ?
12807. Well, I want to know if you do know ? I do not.
12808. It may be interesting to you then to know that the police were informed of the matter ? 1 did
not know it.
12809. Mr. Abigail.] How many meetings did you attend at Sun Sam War's ? Only one.
12810. Think again? Only one ; I am quite positive.
12811. How many persons were present ? About thirty or forty.
12812. How were you invited to be there ; — did they give you a written invitation or a verbal one ? A
verbal one.
12813. Who gave you the verbal invitation ? A man called Ah Sum.
12814. Where does he live ? I think that he lives in Lower George-street.
12815. What business does he carry on? I do not know.
12816. Is it not a fact that he carries on a gambling-house ? I do not know ; perhaps he does. He
must live in one of those gambling-places.
12817. Does he live in the place where the shutters are always up ? I do not know ; I have never been
in his place.
12818. Are you quite sure of that ? Quite sure.
12819. Are you quite sure that you did not, on a second occasion, go to Sun Sam War's? No ; I did not.
12820. You stated to the President that at the meeting there was some confusion, and that during the
confusion you left ? Yes.
12821. What was the origin of the confusion — were they not denouncing you as a spy and a traitor, and
threatening you, and so on ? They were not using any threatening language at the time, but they
seemed to be somewhat excited.
12822. But did anyone at that meeting say that you wanted a good hammering ? They did not say it to
me, at all events, and I did not overhear it said.
12823. Now, did they not say that you were acting out of spite, and that you had told lies to the members
of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League, and that your object had been to shut up some houses at the
expense of others — did they not tell you that in plain terms at that meeting? Not when 1 was
speaking. At all events, if it was said when I was there, it must have been said very quietly, for I did not
hear it myself.
12824. You could not swear that that was not said at the meeting? No, I could not. I did not hear
them, there was so much confusion.
12825. There must have been a tremendous uproar there ? Well, they were all talking together.
12826. So there was a considerable amount of excitement about it? Yes. 12827.
35U CHINESE QAMBLIKU C0MS1ISSI0N — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Gold town
PO Nov., 1801
W-^W. 12827. And all because you went to the meeting of tLe Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? Well, they
seemed to go against me.
1282s. What for ? For joining the Anti-Chinese Gambling League, and some of tliem were kicking up
a row.
1282!). And did they believe that when you joined the Anti-Chinese Gambling League you were sincere,
and going to give evidence that would be harmful to the Chinese ? They seemed to think so.
12S3D. Did they not say at the meeting that you were particularly friendly with Moy Ping, and that Moy
Pin;; was getting you to shut up some other places for the purpose of benefiting him? I did not hear it.
12831. Are you sure also that in consequence of these statements, and the excitement that accompanied
them, that you were afraid that if you did not clear out they would inflict some injury upon you;— did
you not escape to save yourself from being handled by some of them ? Yes; I had reason to fear injury.
12>32. What business did you start after you gave up the tea-shop ? Teaching a school, and interpreting.
12833. If anyone has sworn that you went to gamble after you gave up the tea-shop that would be untrue ?
That would certainly be untrue.
12831. What part of China did you pass the most of your time in before you came here ? In Hong Kong.
12835. Did you take any part there in the suppression of gambling ? Yes.
12836. And you told the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League that at their meeting, as a kind
of introduction ? Yes.
12837. You are perfectly clear, on your oath, that you did not offer them, or even show them, twenty-live
sovereigns ? I can swear that I did not.
12838. You mentioned a number of names — the names of Chinese merchants who were likely to help
you in your endeavours to suppress gambling, did you not ? No, I did not.
12839. Did you mention no names at that meeting ? No.
12840. And you did not mention any number ? No, I did not.
12811. Then if three or four people have come here and sworn that you mentioned twenty-five Chinese
merchants at the meeting of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League it would be untrue ? Oh, the number
of persons who said they would be willing to assist ? I told them that twenty or thirty Chinese mer-
chants would be willing to help in the suppression of gambling. I thought you were referring to the
number of gambling-shops.
12812. Did they ask you for the names ? Yes, they asked me for the names.
12813. And did you tell them that these gentlemen did not want their names mentioned, lest their lives
would be in danger ? No ; I told them that I could not give them any names, because I was not
authorised to go there.
12814. Did you not tell the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League that your friends told you
not to give their names up, because there was a secret society which they feared would make attempts
upon their lives if it was known that they had attempted to interfere with gambling ? No ; I did not ;
but I told them that my friends told me to be careful not to let my own name be known to the public or
published in the newspapers.
12845. You have spoken about an affidavit. Tax your memory as to what answer you made to them upon
that occasion? I said, " I will not put my name to a statement like that."
12846. But did you not say that now that the Commission had been appointed they could verify every-
thing that you had said? There was no Commission appointed at that time, so I could not say that.
12847. Did you not attend another meeting of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League after the Commission
had been appointed ? No ; I left Sydney before the Commission was appointed.
12848. Are you sure ? I think so.
12849. Can you tell us the date, or about the date, that you left Sydney ? This is November — it was in
August.
12850. Then you left immediately after the meeting at Sun Sam War's ? Almost immediately after.
12851. Had you received any intimation that led you to leave more quickly than you otherwise would have
done ? I think the next day, or, perhaps, that night, I went down to Mr. Buchanan and told him that I
had been brought up to a meeting of Chinese, and that during some confusion I left, lie seemed to think
that I was going to put them away ; so, after that night, I have never seen any of them since.
12852. You are quite sure that you did notgo down the second night to tell them what you had done ? Quite.
12,853. Did they say to you, "All this nonsense (meaning the agitations about the Chinese gambling)
has come from you " ? Yes ; I heard some voices saying that.
] 2851. And did you tell them that you had not said anything calculated to injure the Chinamen ? I did
not say that.
12855. You are quite sure that you have never said to anyone that 2d. or 3d., or indeed any sum, vras
kept back from the winnings of the banks in order to create a fund out of which the police were bribed?
I never said anything of the kind.
12856. Did they not accuse you of being a spy or an informer for private gains ? Who ?
12857. Your own countrymen— at the meeting at Sun Sam War's? There were some voices to that
effect.
12858. Some of your countrymen's voices ? Yes ; the voices from the meeting.
12859. Did they not also accuse you of giving information to the Anti-Chinese Gambling League in order
that some of the gambling-houses might be cleared away, and others, with which you were connected, or
with the proprietors of which you were friendly, might be retained ? No.
12860. Do you know Pow Chee ? Yes.
12861. Are you very friendly with him ? Well, I know him pretty well.
12S62. What is _ his general character— is he a reliable sort of man? Well, I cannot say ; I have never
had any transactions with him, except that sometimes we have been employed in certain cases to interpret
Chinese evidence, or to instruct lawyers.
12863. Had vou never a conversation with him in the course of which you said that you would have to
clear out of Sydney in consequence of this Chinese gambling business ? No ; I never "told him that.
12861. Have you ever had much to do with him ? No, never much.
.12865. Did you not tell someone that you had become frightened— that on account of the double part you
were playing, some of the Chinese would give you a hammering ? No.
12866. Have you ever been retained to appear in Court in any case ? Yes, as interpreter.
12867. In many cases, or only in a few ? Oh, in a good many. 12868.;
CHINESE GAMBLING CO'M'UISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 351
12868. In thirty or forty ? Tes, I should think so. W. W.
12869. Have you been engaged as interpreter in many cases in Sydney ? Tes, in a good few. Goldtown.
12870. Who has generally engaged you— your own countrymen? Tes. 30NW~1891
12871. Have you ever appeared in Court on behalf of the police? Tes; I have in a few cases. I have ' ov''
generally instructed the lawyers, and if Mr. Chong has not been there I have interpreted.
12872. Who most frequently engages you — your own countrymen? Tes.
12873. Have you appeared in many cases where there have been prosecutions for gambling? No ; only
in one— in Moy Ping's case, and I told him to plead guilty.
12874. And what are you paid ? A guinea a day.
12875. Tour feeling against the gambling is very strong; you would go a long way to abolish it ;— you
believe that it is injurious to your countrymen and to the Europeans too ? Tes.
12876. Have you ever intimated to the police that you are willing to help them to stop it? Tes ; but I
applied for no warrant. I mentioned to one of the inspectors of police that I would help them if they
wanted me ; but I asked him not to make a raid. Lwanted them to think of some plan for keeping
people out of the gambling-places.
12877. What would be the best plan, without making raids, to prevent people gambling ; — you have had
a great deal of experience? Well, in Hong Kong there was once a great deal of gambling going on, and
when I was in the office of the China Mail, where I was emploved as a translator, some of my friends,
after a great deal of trouble, organised clubs.
12878. Would regular police inspection stop it ? Well', it would do good to a certain extent.
12879. And then, as soon as the backs of the police are turned, they are at it again, are they not ? I
think most likely.
12880. Tou are in the habit of visiting a number of these gambling-houses, are. you not — not for the
purpose of gambling, of course ? I constantly visit them.
12881. In Lower George-street ? Tes.
12882. Have you seen numbers of Europeans there ? Tes ; buying tickets, and so on.
12883. Have you ever seen a number of Europeans present when they have been playing fan-tan ? Well,
I seldom go into the gambling-places in Lower George-street, because they keep the doors bolted there. '
12884. Are they allowed to keep their doors bolted in China? Formerly they did, but not since our
movement.
12885. Then you stopped it did you ? Tes, to a great extent.
12886. Did you compel them to open their doors ? No ; all the residents in a given street consult
together, and in addition to that they depend a great deal on leagues of one kind and another. Wo advised
the members of the leagues to carry on the business in the form of a club, and not to do it publicly, allow-
ing only their friends to join.
12887. In this club do they allow them to carry on games for money among their own members? Well,
they have games. They bet as to who pays for smokes, just as Europeans bet who shall pay for drinks.
12888. When you went to the Anti-Chinese Gambling League did anybody suggest that you were hum-
bugging them — throwing dust in their eyes — not telling them the truth, but attempting to get what
information you could, and to use it for the benefit of the gamblers ? That was not suggested by any-
one in my presence ; but 'it may have been said in my absence.
12889. At all events nobody ever suggested it to you ? No.
12890. Did your own conscience suggest it to you — did you laugh in your sleeve to think how well
you had got at them ? Might I explain that Mr. Christensen said to me, " If you will do whatever we like
we will make you a Consul." I said, " I came here to assist your cause, and did not expect anything like
that"; and they said, "If you do good instead of doing harm, we will do what we can for you. Tou
need not be afraid We will protect you and make you a Consul."
12891. But what I want to put to you is this : Are you perfectly satisfied that you were sincere in going
to the Anti-Chinese Gambling League and offering to assist them in putting down gambling, or was it
only a little bluff on your part ? I was quite sincere.
12892. Tou know of course that a great deal of opium-smoking is carried on both among the Chinese and
among the Europeans ? Well, I do not know that there is much amongst Europeans, but there is a lot
among my own people.
12893. Is it not very injurious to the smoker himself? Tes.
12894. And it creates a somewhat offensive smell in any neighbourhood where it is smoked, does it not ?
Tes; the smell is offensive to anyone who is not accustomed to it.
12895. Do you think that it would be well to suppress opium-smoking as an evil ? Oh, yes, but trying to
suppress opium is just like trying to suppress drink.
12896. Mr. Quonq Tart.'] Is not the effect of opium worse even than the effect of drink ? Opium-smoking
is not so bad as drink, because it simply injures the smoker himself, but when a man gets drunk he will
do harm to others.
12897. Mr. Abigail.] Opium makes a man torpid, whilst the drink excites them ? Tes ; the opium-
smokers seldom get excited.
12898. Do you know Waterloo ? Tes.
12899. Eetreat-street ? Tes ; I know it.
12900. Have, you seen the huts at the back of Retreat-street in which your countrymen live ? Tes.
12901. Do you think those huts are fit for human habitation. Are they fit for your countrymen to live
in ? Well, they feel comfortable in the huts, but I should not.
12902. Are there any sanitary laws in Hong Kong, or in any part of China ? There are no such huts in
Hong Kong as those at the back of Eetreat-street.
12903. Nothing as bad as those ? No ; but there people build those places themselves, whereas in Hong
Kong rich people build houses and then let them at a low rent.
12904. Would they be allowed to live in such places in Hong Kong ? No ; the law would prevent such
sheds being built.
12905. Do you know whether gambling has increased or decreased here lately ? I think it has decreased.
12906. It is a sort of national pastime in China, is it not ? Tes.
12907. And the police, I suppose, do not make raids or anything of that kind there, do they ? Sometimes.
12908 When it becomes very offensive or very outrageous ? Tes ; then the police begin to act.
.12909.
352 CHINKS!.; OAMIU.IXK COMMISSION- — 5I7XVTE9 OF EVIDENCE.
W. AY. ]2!)09. Do you know a iirm here that has sent very large sums away to China as the result of its
Goldtown. winningS v " Xo.
.X^?^™ 12910. You have never heard of a firm sending as much as £30,000 away ? No.
ov" ' 12911. Mr. Quong Tart.'] Before beginning to examine you, I want to get a little about your character
placed on record. Since you joined the Anti-Chinese Gambling League, Mr. Kelly and other gentlemen
have made certain statements about you. I am, therefore, going to elicit exactly what I know about you.
When you first arrived in New South Wales some of your district friends brought you up to my place, in
the Sydney Arcade, and introduced you to me. Is that not so ? Yes.
12912. Your friends referred to your ability. They said you were well educated both in English and
Chinese, and that you wanted to start in life out here. 1 said, " I am not selfish, and should be very
pleased for any Chinaman to make a mark in Australia by conducting himself properly '' ? Yes, you did.
12913. And then I said to you, " I object to two things, and I want you to understand that before I
recommend you to any of my friends. First I object to opium, and then I object to gambling, and I have
it in my heart to put them both down. Those two things are the .curse of the Chinese in Australia."
You heard me say that to you in my place a few weeks or months (I do not know which) after your
arrival? Yes, a few days after my arrival, I think.
12914. I said, "I am very pleased to see any Chinese resident working hard and acting intelligently and
respectably, and no doubt you will get on in Australia if you do that " ; then I asked you what you could
do, and you said that in China you had been engaged in interpreting and translating ; I told you to get a
place in the centre of the city if you wanted to get on ? Yes, you did.
12915. Where did you commence business in Sydney ? At 133, King-street.
12916. I assisted you, did I not, by giving you translations to do for myself, and by getting you work
from some of the lawyers and some of the merchants in town ; — I told you to be discreet in your conduct
and to beware of the blackguards in China who live on their wits and are always stirring up strife and
putting the country to a lot of trouble ; J. told you always to take the weakest side ? Yes.
12917. You carried on business in King-street for some time ? I remained for a few months in King-
street and then I removed my office and went to Alexandria.
12918. And then you found that you had not enough business, did you not ? Yes.
12919. And who took the office after you left ? We handed it back to the landlord.
12920. Then you looked round for another business, and I offered to give you a show in my place in
George-street ? Yes.
12921. And you found that some of your friends were against it — that they thought I wanted to get you
in there so that I could get rid of some of my old stock ; — that was the thanks I got ? Yes, some of my
friends thought so.
12922. However you had your friends, and where did you go then ? To Park-street.
12923. And how did you get on there? I failed in business.
12921. How long were you there ? Eight or nine months.
12925. And do you not remember that I had to help you then ? Yes.
1292G. And then you asked me what I thought of the place, and what did I say to you — did I think it
would pay or not ? You said that you did not think it would pay.
12927. And I told you not to take it, did I not ? Yes ; but I did not like to go too much against the
opinion of the friends who had supported me.
12928. Then when you failed in that place I asked you what you were going to do, and you said that you
were going to studv in a lawyer's office and still do the interpreting, did you not ? Yes.
12929. And that is" the last I saw of you ? Yes.
12930. Up to then you were respectable, and showed a great deal of ability in acquiring local knowledge,
but since then I know nothing of your conduct ? Quite so.
12931. Some members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League came to me, and asked what your character
was. I said what I knew about you. Then they said, to me, " Do you think it is true that Mr. Goldtown
represents twenty-five Chinese merchants," and I said, " I cannot tell whether it is true or not " ; then I
sent for you and asked if you gave that information to the League, and what was your reply ? I said that
when I joined the League T was asked by Mr. Armstrong if it was true that 2d. out of every five marks
in the lottery went to the police as a defence fund, and that I replied that I did not know anything
about it. You asked nle then what I knew about the alleged bribery — whether the police took anything
from the Chinese. I said that I did not know, and upon that you pressed me with the question.
12932. And then I asked you if you told them that you represented twenty-five Chinese merchants ?
Yes, and I told you that J was asked whether there were any other Chinese merchants here who would
join the League.
12933. Did I ask you for the names of the merchants ? 1 did not give you any names.
12934. Then I asked you if they had requested that you would make an affidavit ? Yes, and I told you
that the people belonging to the League asked me to sign a statement that they wanted to dictate to me.
12935. Did you not say to me. " If they want me to go before the Government, and I am obliged to give
a statement, then I will do it " ? Yes, I said that: but I did not say anything about the Commission.
There was no Commission appointed at that time.
12930. Mr. Hawllwrne.l You were referring to a deputation that was to wait upon the Government at
that time ? No. I said that if I was brought up before any Government officer 1 would make my
statement.
12937. Mr. Quong Tart.] Did these twenty-five merchants authorise you to represent them on the Anti-
Chinese Gambling League ? Well, it was only my opinion at that time. They seemed quite agreeable.
12938. You are sure that they did not hold a meeting to decide it at the time ? Quite sure.
12939. Mr. Hawthorne-.'] You thought that you could depend upon at least twenty-five Chinese mer-
chants to give you £1 apiece to assist the Europeans in suppressing gambling ? My opinion had nothing
to do with pounds.
12940. Mr. Abigail..] You are quite sure that you mentioned nothing at all about £25 ? Quite sure.
12941. Mr. Hmctltorne.] Mr. Quong Tart wants you to say distinctly whether you mentioned anything
about £25 to the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? I did not.
12942. Mr. Quong Tart.] Nothing at all ? Nothing at all.
12943. If they say you did, it is untrue ? It is untrue.
12944. And now about the bribery of the police ; — did any Chinese say anything about bribing the police r
No, I never heard anything at all about it. 12945.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 353
12945. And you never made any statement about it ? No. w- w-
1294.6. What about the meeting at Sun Sam War's ;— was there any other interpreter there ? Yes ; ^oldtown-
Pow Chee. '""**-' — \
1*2947. What part of the day was it ? It was at night. 30 or" 8
12948. What was Pow Chee doing there? He was reading the correspondence about the Anti-
Chinese movement from the newspaper.
12949. Did they say anything to you about joining the Anti-Chinese Gambling League? Well, they
asked me if I had joined the League and so on — some voices asked me.
12950. Tou say that you were frightened, and got away from Sydney? Tes.
12951. Were you frightened of the Europeans or the Chinese— the Anti-Chinese Gambling League or the
police, or the Chinese gamblers ? Well, I was frightened of both Europeans and Chinese. I was
frightened of the Chinese, because Eobert Lee Kum, Cheang Show, and Lin Man had threatened to take
my life. As far as the League was concerned I was only frightened of it because they asked me to sign
a statement that they wanted to dictate to me. I refused to sign it, and Mr. Christensen, who had got
something in his head that night, and seemed inclined to be rather disagreeable, wanted me to explain the
matter. Mr. Armstrong said that my name was given to Sir Henry Parkes as the man from whom the
information came, and that in consequence of that they looked upon me for a corroboration of the evidence.
I told them that I would not sign the statement, but that I should know what to say if called upon.
12952. Did you ever, ,in the League, say that the police were bribed with diamond rings, gold watches,
chests of tea, or other articles ? No.
12953. If anybody said that you did make a statement to that effect, it is untrue ? Tes ; quite untrue.
12954. And what is your opinion of gambling ; — how would you suggest that it should be suppressed ?
Well, it is hard to say what is the best thing to do in a city like this.
12955. Mr. Abigail.'] Do you not think that it is very hard upon your poor countrymen who work hard
all day long in the gardens that they should have their money taken from them by the gambling-house
keepers ? It is very hard.
12956. Well, give us your opinion as to how the gambling should be put down ; — we are sitting here for
the good of the public, and want to suppress it if we can ; — have you given the matter any consideration ? —
suppose you were the Inspector- General, or the head of the Government, what method would you adopt
for putting it down ; — you would not remain quiet, would you ? When I was a member of the Anti-
Chinese Gambling League I suggested that I should make the landlords responsible to a certain extent,
but now, after considering the matter, I have come to the conclusion that that could not be done, because
the landlords would have their friends in Parliament, who would oppose any such alteration in the law.
12957. Mr. Quong Tart.'] Certain witnesses have said that they have given you £40 to attend a case at
Gundagai or Tumut ; — is that true ? What sort of a case ?
12958. It was a sly-grog selling case ? Tes.
12959. Did Robert Lee Kum say that he would give you £-10 to go to Tumut ? No ; it was not Lee Kum.
12960. Did you get £40 from me for that case ? No ; I got paid by the prosecutor.
129G1. Mr. Abigail.] Did Mr. Quong Tart at any time give you £40 to go up there ? No.
12962. Mr. Quong Tart.] Now, here is another Chinese witness who says that you humbugged the Anti-
Chinese Gambling League ; — were you sincere or insincere ? Well, I was quite sincere in everything I
did to help the League to put down gambling.
12963. Mr. McKillop.] Do you know Pow Chee? Tes, I know him.
12964. Were you present at the first meeting held down in Lower George-street ? Do you mean the
meeting at Sun Sam War's — the one that his Worship the Mayor mentioned ?
12965. Tes ; at the first meeting that was held down there ? Tes ; at least I suppose it was the first
meeting at Sun Sam War's.
12966. Is it not a fact that at that meeting you were, charged with being the whole cause of the depu-
tation to Sir Henry Parkes ? Some voices said so.
12967. Were you not also threatened that same night? I thought that some voices threatened me.
12968. Were you not also asked at that meeting whether you had made the statement that there was a
sustentation fund in existence for the purpose of bribing the police not to interfere in Chinese gambling?
They may have said so.
12969. Was Moy Ping at the meeting ? Tes, I think he was.
12970. Tou have been in partnership with him, have you not ? No, I have not.
12971. Who paid your expenses out of Sydney on the occasion of your recent trip ? I did myself.
12972. Were you not assisted by some who thought that you might give detrimental evidence to the
Commission ? No.
12973. Only you would not have left Sydney if you had not thought that some harm would come to you ?
Well, I go away for two or three months every year — a fortnight at one time, a fortnight at another
time, and so on, whenever I have the time to spare.
12974. Have you been residing in Goulburn-street long ? I have never resided there.
12975. Did you stop for any length of time in George-street ? Tes, at No. 2 Coffee Palace.
12976. How long had you stayed there ? Pour or five weeks.
12977. And where do you generally stop when you are in Sydney ? In Alexandria.
12978. Do you carry on business there or are you in partnership with anybody who is in business there ?
No.
12979. Have you any share in any of the gardens there ? I own a garden at Arncliffe — the whole garden
belongs to me — 4 or 5 acres.
12980. Is it a freehold ? No ; it is a leasehold, and is cancelled now. It was cancelled last year.
12981. Then you have no interest in any garden at the present time ? No.
12982. And you are not in any business ? No.
12983. Tou just make a living by teaching and interpreting ? Tes.
12984. And you are ndt in partnership with any gamblers ? No.
12985. Are you sure of that ? I am quite sure of that.
12986. Is there any immorality down in Lower George-street ? To some extent.
12987. Are any young girls decoyed down there ? Well, many a time I have seen them larking in front
of the shop and so on.
272—2 T 12988,
354
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
w. \v.
Goldtown.
30Nov.,1891
1298S. Do they ever lark inside the shops ? I have never seen them inside.
12980. Do you not consider that the games called fan-tan and pak-ah-pu are being camod on right in
front of the policemen's nose ? "Well, the police must have noticed it.
12900. Is it not a fact that they have often gone in and seen them playing? "Well, once when I was
teaching at the Bobertson's-lane school, nest door being a gambling-place. I saw a police-sergeant and a
constable go in there and disperse the players without arresting any of them ; some ran away, and some
climbed over the fence to my place.
12991. When did vou come'back from Emmavillc ? From Emmaville I went straight on to Brisbane.
12092.
12993.
12994.
spent.
12995.
No, but my money was
Is it not a fact that you were written for and told to come down ? No.
You came back of your own free will ? Yes.
I suppose that you thought that the whole matter had blown over ?
I hnd been in Brisbane enjoying myself.
Are there many Chinese in Brisbane ? About five hundred or six hundred.
12996. Do they all live in one quarter Y Most of them are gardeners.
12997. Is there much gambling carried on there ? There is a lot of gambling carried on there.
12998. Do you know anything about Melbourne ? No.
12999. Have you never been to Melbourne ? No.
13000. Is Emmaville the only country place that you have ever visited where the Chinese are to be found
in great numbers ? No.
13001. Have you ever been to Wagga "Wagga or Tingha ? No.
13002. "What place have you visited besides Emmaville ? Maitland, Newcastle, G-oulburn, and Tumut.
13003. Are there many Chinese residing there ? -Not very many.
.13001;. I suppose gambling is carried on wherever they reside ? Some of them carry it on.
13005. Do you know Pow Chee well ? Yes, I do know him.
13006. What character has he got. Is it a good character ? Well, is it right of me to speak of a man's
character behind his back?
13007. Well, he has given us his opinion of your character. Are you friendly with him? We are not
bad friends.
13008. Is he a man of very good character ? Oh, I do not say very good character— I do not know much
about his character. I have had no business transactions with him, and should not like to pass an opinion.
13009. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Were you and Pow Chee on very friendly terms when you were in Sydney ?
We were not on very friendly terms, but we were friendly.
13010. Used you to visit his house and he your store when you had one ? He never visited my place.
13011. But you have visited his place, have you not, and had some meals with him ? I have not had any
meals at his place.
13012. Never taken tea with him and his wife ? No.
13013. Are you sure that you have never visited his house ? I do not know his house.
13014. And you have never been on intimate terms with Pow Chee ? No ; not on very intimate terms.
13015. Do you know James Nug Quoy? Yes ; I know him.
13016. Were you on very intimate terms with him ? So, so.
13017. By " so, so " you mean middling ? Yes.
13018. You met Pow Chee at the meeting of Chinese at Sun Sam War's after the rather startling state-
ments which had been made to the Premier by the deputation that waited upon him ? Yes.
13019. Had you much conversation with him that night ? No.
13020. Are you quite sure ? Quite sure.
13021. Did you address the meeting that night ? Yes ; I answered some questions.
13022. Did you tell the Chinamen that you were only " fooling " the Anti-Chinese Gambling League?
No ; I did not.
13023. What sort of men did you find the members of the Anti-Chinese G-ambling League to be — were
they a very agreeable class of men ? Yes ; they made me very welcome, though some of them are
rather disagreeable when they have got something in their heads — like Mr. Christensen.
13024. What do you mean by saying " when they have something in their heads " ; — do you mean when
they have had too much liquor? Yes ; I have seen two or three of them with too much liquor. I had
to take one of them home one night, and he fell down.
13025. You remember on one occasion having to take a member of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League
home ? Yes ; I can give his name ; — it was Mr.
13026. He was an active member of the League, was he ? Yes.
13027. And at that meeting he had been speaking against Chinese gambling, had he not ? Yes.
13028. Were you in the habit of partaking of refreshments after the meeting was over ? Yes ; if we got
there before the meeting started we generally had some drinks, and then afterwards we often stopped
there until half -past 12 and 1 o'clock, and had to be let out at the back door.
13029. You had liquor before the meetings, and you also had liquor after the meetings, and generally
remained at Mr. Buchanan's house until after half-past 12 o'clock ? I have even seen — (mentioning one of
the officers of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League) drink too much. On one occasion he had another glass
and vomited.
13030. Are you quite sure that these gentlemen were not overcome by the tremendous statements that you
were making about Chinese gambling. Are you sure that it was the liquor with which they were over-
come ? Oh, they were overcome with liquor.
13031. And Mr. (the officer of the League, mentioned above), even took too much liquor? Yes.
13032. And on one occasion you saw him vomit ? Yes.
13033. Whilst the meeting was going on ? No ; after the meeting was over.
13034. Did you know the members of the League personally ? I did not know them before I joined the
League.
13035. Used you to go and visit them at their private houses, or their business establishments ? As a rule
I only saw them at Mr. Buchanan's hotel, though once Mr. took me to his place and introduced me
to his wife. He was half drunk then, and asked me to have another drink.
13036. Were you ever drunk yourself when attending these meetings ? I have never been drunk in jny life.
13037. Are you quite sure that you always had some drink at these meetings of the League ? Yes.
13038.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MTNtTTES OP EVIDENCE.
13038. Then how was it that you did not get drunk ? Because the others took spirits, but I took only ^ w-
wine and claret, and lemonade. Goldtown.
13039. So that the reason that you kept sober whilst they got drunk was that you were more choice in q/C^^T^i
your liquors than they were ? Yes ; they always took strong spirits. " ' ' *
13040. So that if some of the members of the League said that you made very remarkable statements, could
you understand it on the ground that they did not quite know what they were doing ? Tes ; they gene-
rally had a sort of debate when they were drinking. We talked much more in the room where we were
drinking than in the meeting-room. In the meeting-room one would propose, another second, and the
rest pass resolutions — that was all.
13041. Were they sober when they were discussing these questions or not ? I do not know.
13042. But surely you can tell when a man is sober and when he is not ? When they were in the
meeting-room they seemed to be right to a great extent.
13043. Did you notice any member of the League under the influence of liquor when the meetings were
being held ? No ; but I noticed one man say something, then get up and swear and walk away. Then
he came back and apologised for being so excited. He might have been a little bit tight. That was at the
meeting that I first attended.
13044. How many men used to attend these meetings— was there a big crowd ? No ; from ten to fifteen.
13045. Never more than fifteen ? No, about fifteen.
13046. Where were the meetings held— at Buchanan's, on the ground floor or up above ? The room in
which they were held is rather more elevated than the bar.
13047. And you say that as a rule there was not much business done at the meetings ? Not very much.
13048. Simply formal business ? Tes.
13049. And the general discussions took place after they had adjourned, and were partaking of refresh-
ments in the form of spirituous liquors ? Tes.
13050. Tou are quite clear upon that point ? Quite clear.
13051. And how long did the meetings themselves last? The longest meeting I attended was the one at
which I was first introduced to the League. It lasted from about half -past 8 to a little after 10 o'clock.
13052. But then you made a long speech on that occasion ? No ; I spoke for a few minutes.
13053. As a rule do you make long speeches when you are discussing things ? Not when I am speaking
in the English language.
13054. Were there any Members of Parliament present at any of the meetings ? I saw Mr. T. M. Davis,
of the Labour Party, present at one of them for a few minutes. He made a speech and said that
he would do what he could for the League. He admired them he said, and he assured them that he would
bring the matter before Parliament, and asked some of his fellow members to co-operate with him, suggesting
at the same time that a Bill to make the landlords responsible would be a good thing.
13055. He did not seem to have much sympathy with the landlords ? No, he said that the Labour Party
would hold a caucus at Parliament House and discuss the matter.
13056. Was that at the second or third meeting that you were at ? I think that it was at the second
meeting.
13057. I suppose that Mr. Davis's remarks met with the entire approval of the League ? Tes.
13058. Did they adjourn that night for refreshments ? We adjourned every night.
13059. So that when the time for the meetings came round you looked upon it that you were going to
enjoy yourself that evening ? Tes, and I did enjoy myself very much too.
13060. Are you perfectly sure that you did not drink so much on one of those occasions as to make you
large minded and generous enough to promise £25 towards the funds of the League ? I am quite sure.
13061. Tou are quite sure that you were always perfectly sober, and remembered afterwards everything
you said ? Tes.
13062. And what would you say if some of the men has said that you made an offer of £25 to the
Anti-Chinese Gambling League r I should say it was false.
13063. Then do you think they were in the habit of imagining things at these meetings of the League ?
Most of them got information from some of their friends outside. They would say " So and so said such
and such a thing" and " somebody else said such and such a thing."
13064. That took place, I suppose, as you were drinking the grog? Tes, after the meeting was over.
13065. Did you usually find them more talkative and vigorous in their action after or before the meeting?
After the meeting was over.
13066. Did they always seem to be in a hurry to get through the formal part of the meeting ? Tes, they
did seem to be so.
13067. Do you know Mr. Nock ? Tes ; in the meeting he always spoke with a shaky voice, but in the
after meeting he talked like anything.
13068. Did he take anything at all to drink ? Tes, I have seen him take something to drink.
13069. Spirits ? Well, I have shouted for him, and he has shouted for me.
13070. Did you notice what he took ? No. I was the only one who had wine and lemonade. The others
had beer, whisky, and brandy.
13071. Mr. Quong Tart.] And champagne ? No ; there were too many there. We could not afford it.
13072. Mr. Hawthorne.] Did your drinks come from the 3d.-bar or from the 6d.-bar ? We paid 6d. for
each drink.
13073. Who appeared to you, as an observer of character as you evidently were, to have been the most
prominent member of the League ? Mr. Nock.
13074. And who else ;— do you remember Mr. Maguire, the photographer in Lower Greorge-street ? No ;
I do not know him. Mr. Nock was the principal speaker.
13075. Was Mr. Nock in the habit of staying late at these after meetings ; — did all the members stay
until the meetings closed, or used some to leave before the others ? Mr. Nock used to leave before the
others — about 11 or half -past.
13076. Did they all stop until after the hotel was closed ? Tes ; all of them.
13077. And would they bring up grog into the room after 11 o'clock ? Tes.
13078. And who used to be supplying the grog, Mr. Buchanan or his wife ? Both of them.
13079. Tou have seen him and his wife serving liquor up to half -past 12 o'clock ? Tes.
13080. And then the customers always used to be let out the back way ? No, not always ; on one
occasion they were. , 13081. ,
356 CHINESE GAMBLING- COMMISSION" — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
W.W. 13081. And on the other occasions you were always put out at the side door? No ; on one occasion at
Goldtown. ^e back door, and on one occasion at the front door in Lower Georga-street.
s~^*~^ 13082. Did not Mr. Buchanan shout sometimes ? No, he did not shout. It was always the members of
80 Nov., 1891. the LeaKue wno Bhouted for Mr. Buchanan.
13083. Do you know Moy Ping ? Tes.
13084. Are you friendly with him ? Yes.
13085. And have you been in his place since you returned from Brisbane ? No.
13086. Are you quite sure that you have had no conversation with him about the business of this Com-
mission ? Tes.
13087. Nor with James Nug Quoy ? No. I have not been in Lower George-street since my return from
Brisbane. I have been too busy in G-oulburn-street.
13088. "What do you mean by being busy ? They are all my own countrymen who live in Botany, Waterloo,
Rockdale, and G-oulburn-street, and every day I have been invited to take a meal at a different house. I
am one of the Grow You district men, and a leader amongst them. As they esteem me in that light,
they came to see me when I returned.
13089. "Where are you living ? With Hip War & Co., storekeepers, Alexandria.
13090. Do they charge you anything for board and lodging ? No. Even if I offered them money they
would not accept it. I did offer Hip War money when I had the office in King-street, but he would not
accept it.
13091. You have found that the people from your part of China entertain you in the most friendly and
hospitable manner ? Yes.
13092. And they will not accept anything in return because they like you ? I suppose so.
13093. You have not seen Moy Ping since you came back ? No.
13094.. Were the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League serious when they held out this position
of Consul to you if you supported the statements made to Sir Henry Parkes by the deputation when it
waited upon him ? That is a long question.
13095. You say that the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League said to you that if you stuck to
the statements male to Sir Henry Parkes by the deputation they would have sufficient influence to
make you a great man — like a Consul in China ? Yes, they said so.
13096" Were they serious, or were they only fooling you ? Well, they looked serious. They gave me
the pen and ink, and wanted to dictate to me what 1 was to -write and sign. I asked them what they
wanted me to put down, and they said that I might put down anything I liked in addition to these two things
about bribery by the proprietors of the gambling-houses, and the deduction of money from the winnings
of the banks in aid of a police susteutation fund.
13097. In other words, they wanted you to sign the statement that they made to Sir Henry Parkes ? Yes.
] 3098. And it was when you refused to do that that Mr. Christensen and some other members of the
League began to show temper towards you ? Yes.
13099. And it was also after that that you ceased to have anything to do with the Anti-Chinese Gambling
League ? Yes, it was after that. ■
] 3100. And did they tell you that you had better clear out of Sydney ? No, they did not tell me that.
13101. Did they make a threat of any kind ? Well, some of them said that they would go for me.
13102. And you really got frightened of these men ? Yes, to a certain extent.
13103. What men were you the most frightened of — these men, or your own countrymen ? Well, one
lot threatened to take my life, and the other lot to put me into gaol.
13104. Who threatened to kill you ? I have already given their names to the Commission.
13105. Who threatened to put you into gaol ? The Anti-Chinese Gambling League people said that as I
refused to sign the statement they were afraid that I would not assist them in any shape or form, so they
threatened to go for me.
13106. They threatened that they would do you some harm ? Yes.
13107. That they would assault you ? No ; I did not know whether they would assault me or put me
into gaol.
13108. Was it this fear that made you go away from Sydney for some time ? Yes.
13109. And you went away because you were afraid of your countrymen because they said that you were
trying to inform of their habits, and of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League because you would not sign
a paper substantiating the statements they made to Sir Henry Parkes ? Yes.
13110. What do the three Chinamen do whose names you gave to the President as those of the men who
were going to kill you ? Well, they have no business to do.
13111. How do they live ? I have heard a great deal about them in the capacity of informers, threatening
to bring actions against people if they would not give them money. They try to extort money from them.
13112. These three men are continually threatening their countrymen that if they do not give them
money they will bring actions against them, and drag them up before the Courts ? Yes.
13113. Mr. Pow Chee does not know enough of your character to warrant his giving an opinion as to the
kind of man you are, does he ? I think not.
13114. Have you ever done anything in your life to lower your character — have you ever been in gaol for
any crime ? No, no.
13115. Have you got an unblemished character up to now? Yes, I think so.
13116. Be quite sure of that. You were never prosecuted before you came to this country ? No.
13117. And you stand in high repute amongst your countrymen ? Yes.
13118. So much so that they are quite willing to keep you without charging you anything? Yes.
13119. You are a good English scholar, are you not ? Well, I do not know.
13120. You can read and speak English fluently, cannot you ? Yes ; I can read better than I can speak.
13121. Do you understand any other languages ? No.
13122. What were you studying for in Hong Kong ? I was studying for the law.
13123. What made you change your mind ? My health. I decided to go to Pekin, but it was rather too
cold in Pekin, which is in the north of China, so I then made up my mind to come down here.
13124. You came down to Sydney in search of health, and had to abandon your studies in the law on
that account ? Yes ; I have given myself up to private study since I came to Australia, and to writing
a book, which I have not yet finished.
13125. Are you writing the book now ? Yes.
13126.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. j357
13126. Is it too much to ask you what the subject of it is ? It is to teach all the English and Chinese W. W.
speaking people to know each others habits, and manners, and customs, and history. It also gives some Goldt°wl1-
phrases that do not lend themselves very easily to translation. wn*~*~Tmi
13127. You say that you are quite positive that you never indulge in gambling yourself? Tes, never. "'
13128. And you never kept a gambling-house ? Never.
13129. And if it has been asserted by Pow Chee that you kept a gambling-house after you gave up the
tea-shop, that would be untrue ? Quite untrue.
13130. And he has no foundation for saying such a thing? He has no foundation at all.
[The witness then withdrew.]
Dec, 1891.
FBIDAY, 4 DECEMBEB, 1891.
Jkesmt: —
The Mayor op Sydney (Alderman MANNING, Esq., J.P.), President.
EEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pkesident.
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG- TABT, Esq.,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Mr. Frederick Henry Searl called and examined : —
13131. President.'] What are you in business ? We are nurserymen, seedsmen, and florists. Mr.
13132. "Where are your gardens situated ? One garden is situated at Botany, another at Ashfield, and F.JL Searl.
another at Petersham. "We have three nurseries.
13133. Do you employ Chinese at any of them ? Only at the one at Botany. We have employed them
there for the last three years.
] 3134. Eor the last three years you have employed Chinese only on the Botany premises, and you do not
employ them in the Ashfield or Petersham nurseries ? No ; only at Botany.
13135. How many Chinese have you there ? Well, when we were breaking up the land, and so on, we
employed as many as nine or ten. At the present time we have only one, but 1 intend to put on a couple
more, so that the average would be about three.
".'313(>. Do you keep any Europeans at work there now ? Oh, several ; about five or six.
13137. What wages do you pay the Europeans ? Their wages vary from 30s. to 42s. per week.
1 :U38. And do you ration them ? No ; they keep themselves.
13139. Their wages depend upon the value of their services as workmen, I suppose? Tes ; and when I
say that the highest wage paid is 42s. a week, I should add that that man has a cottage rent-free, so that
his wages really amount to about 50s. a week.
13 140. What hours do the Europeans work ? Well, at Botany they are supposed to work from 6 in the
morning to 6 at night, with an intermission of an hour for breakfast, and an hour in the middle of the day,
but our business sometimes demands unusually early rising, and on those occasions they get up at 4
o'clock in the morning, but make up for it in the middle of the day.
13141. And do you give them any advantage in the way of fruit or vegetables out of the garden? No ;
nothing of that kind.
13142. What do you pay the Chinamen ? Prom 24s. to 30s. a week.
13143. And you lodge them, I suppose ? No.
13144. Are they not so skilful as the Europeans ? No ; they have not the knowledge that the Europeans
have, but they are particularly good at cleaning and tidying up.
13145. What time do the Europeans knock off on Saturdays ? About 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
13146. And the Chinese knock off then too, I suppose ? Tes.
13147. Do they ever work in the nurseries on Sundays ? No.
13148. Do you never work your Chinese on Sundays ? No ; never.
13149. It has been stated before the Commission that you do ? I can give the lie direct to that.
13150. And then it was also alleged that you employed a greater number of Chinese than you say you
do. It has been stated by those who professed to know that you employ as many as twenty Chinamen
at the present time ? No.
13151. Then if it was alleged that you employ twenty Chinamen it was untrue? Tes; quite untrue.
As I said we had nine or ten Chinese working for us when we were breaking up the land and preparing to
plant — that would be for about six months — then the number came down to six, and then six or eight
months ago it came down to four, and since then the numbey has been reduced to one ; though, as I have
told you we intend putting on two more, and that will be our full complement of Chinamen.
13152. Do you know anything about the condition in which the Chinese live in that neighbourhood ?
Well, only as far as our own are concerned ; I have seen the way they live, and have thought that they
appeared to be clean tidy fellows and saving too.
13153. Then, really, your experience of the Chinese gardeners is rather limited — limited at all events to
those in your own emplov ? Tes. I may say, however, that one man, a Chinaman, whom we employed
as a foreman down there, got £75 a year for five years, and ultimately left for China with £500.
13154. But if he was only in your employ for five years at a salary of £75 a year he could not have
saved that amount as a result of the work he did for you ? Oh, I don't say that he saved it all in our
employ ; he was an exceedingly good man, and when he left I thought that we would not take on any
more Chinamen, but we have found it advisable to do so.
13155. Tou pay some of your Chinamen 30s. a week then ? No — that was an exceptional case — that
man was a foreman.
13156. What would you have to pay Europeans to do the same class of work ? Well, we could get
eighteen or twenty who would come for the same money ; but we have found for that class of work
Chinamen to be the most satisfactory.
13157. Are you able to say whether the Chinamen would be able to do the same amount of work in a
"■iven time as Europeans ? Tes, of that particular kind of work they would do as much.
13158. Have you had any difficulty at any time owing [to their raising objections ? Do you mean the
Europeans raising objections ?
13159.
358 CIIINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 13159. No, the Chinese as to the amount of money you paid thern, or the number of hours they have to
F. H. Searl. W0T^ and so on ? No ; they have been most satisfactory in every respect, and that is why we have
C V^T^1 employed them.
4 Dec, isji. 131C0 jjow many. Europeans do you employ ? Altogether, including those in the town and suburbs, we
employ about thirty-seven hands.
13161. Have the Europeans ever made any complaints to you ? No; hitherto we have had no trouble
whatever.
13162. As a matter of fact you are looked upon as a good employer ? Tes, I think so ; we have had men
with us for as long as ten years.
13163. Tou are not in a position to speak as to the moral condition of the Chinese? "Well, I have seen
very little of them ; but from hearsay, and what little experience I have had, we seem to have been lucky
in getting good, respectable men.
13164. Do you hear anything about gambling being carried on there ? No ; if we have had any with a
tendency in that direction they have gone to Waterloo to play.
13165. Mr. Haivtkorne.'] What is the reason that you employ Chinese at the Botany gardens but not at
Ashfield or Petershan ? Well, in the first place, because the Botany garden is right in the heart of the
Chinese population, and, in the second place, the soil at Botany is light, and the Chinese are on that
account, well adapted to work it. They are no good at all at working heavy soil like that at Ashfield and
Petersham.
13166. If you wanted the Chinese to work on stiff soil like that at Ashfield or Petersham, they would
raise some objection ? I think they would.
13167. What is the Botany gardens used for principally ? Eor bulbs, carnations, and so on — flowers that
grow better in that kind of soil.
13168. Have you ever had Chinese employed at Ashfield or Petersham ? No ; I think not on any
occasion.
13169. What has been the greatest number on your garden at Botany since you started ? Eight or nine,
or ten, and that was at the commencement. I do not think we have ever exceeded nine at any time, and
that was only for a very few months when we were preparing the ground for the first planting.
13170. Since you begun to employ Chinese have you ever found that the European gardeners working
on the same garden have raised any objection to working along with them ? No ; we have had no diffi-
culty or trouble at all as far as that is concerned.
13171. Knowing, as of course you do, the amount of ill-feeling that exists in the community generally
about the employment of Chinese by Europeans, how is it that you prefer to employ them even at almost
the same wages that you give to European gardeners ? Well, for the particular kind of work we use
them for they answer our purpose admirably. They are tidy and clean, and for that work I think a little
cheaper than other labour.
13172. Tou find that for that particular kind of soil they do the same amount or perhaps a little more
work than Europeans, and that their wages are lower ? Tes, that is so.
13173. What kind of men are they you employ at 30s. a week. Tou stated just now, in answering a
question put by the President, that the rate of wages varies from 30s. to 45s. a week ? Well, there are
two young men from 20 to 25 years of age whom we employ at that rate of wages to do the carting and
rough work for us.
13174. And they get no allowance in the shape of board and lodging? No; no allowance over and
above their wages.
13175. In other words they are' unskilled labourers ? Tes.
13176. Those who receive 45s. a week are men who have a knowledge of gardening in its various branches?
Tes.
13177. Do you pay anything higher than 45s. ? We pay 50s. to one man at Petersham, and 45s. to
three or four others.
13178. And I suppose we are to conclude that if from 30s. to 45s. is paid to the men in your employ,
that is the rate of wages in other nurseries ? Tes ; that is about the thing.
13179. Do your men experience any broken time, or do they get their wages wet or dry ? Oh, it is a
steady wage.
13180. So that we are not to understand that they are only paid 35s. or 40s. during steady work ? No ;
oh, no.
13181. And that 35s. or 40s. would be paid under any circumstances and nothing deducted for holidays ?
Of course, as I have already said, our line of business is somewhat irregular and necessitates the men
working for an hour or two on a holiday occasionally.
13182. How many hours a week do they average ? Ten hours a day, and two hours less on Saturdays.
13183. So that is fifty-eight hours a week ? Tes.
13184. Have the men ever appealed to you to increase their wages ? No, never.
13185. Do they appear quite contented ? Tes.
13186. The Chinese enjoy the same privileges as regards time that are allowed to Europeans ? Tes.
13187. And, as a matter of choice, if twelve- Chinese and twelve Europeans offered themselves, each
possessing the same amount of knowledge in your line of gardening, which of the two classes would you
prefer ? Well, if the wages were equal, we should prefer the Europeans, but the wages not being equal
we take the Chinese occasionally.
13188. Tou do not find that the Chinese do better work than the Europeans ? Well, they plod along
very steadily, and I think that at weeding or trenching, or anything of that kind, if they worked side by
side, we should find that they did a little more.
13189. And I suppose that is why you employ them even, against the wish of the public ? Tes.
13190. Are Chinese employed by any other nurserymen ? I know that Pearce Bros, used to employ
them, but I do not know whether they do so now.
13191. Do you know whether Shepherd employs them? No, I do not.
13192. Do you know of any others who do ? A few months ago Iliffe & Co. used to do so at Eockdale.
13193. Tou are not aware whether they do at the present moment ? No, I am not. I rather think, how-
ever, that Jno. Treseder at Ashfield does, but I would not be quite sure.
13194. So that most nurserymen in connection with certain branches of their work employ a few Chinese ?
Well, the custom has been to employ one or two. 13195,
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 359
rnu' ^r- -M-O-K-illop.] Assertions have recently been made to the effect that you have a large number Mr.
?o-i7T111^?? *n your emPloy ? Well, I have not heard it said that we have a large number in our employ. F- H- Searl-
13196. Well, fifteen or twenty ? Tes, I did hear that. '"-^ *
13197. Was it not brought under your notice not very long ago by the Gardeners' Society ? There was 4 Dec•' 1891;
some society amongst gardeners organised recently, I believe.
13198. Tour attention has not been drawn to the emplovment of Chinese, has it? Tes, it was not very
long ago, by the Trades and Labour Council.
13199 Are none of the men employed by you members of this Gardeners' Society ? No, not to my
knowledge.
13200. Mr. Hawthorne.] Is it to your knowledge that the Union men demand higher wages than the men
in your employ ? No, I am not aware that they do.
13201. Mr. McKillop.] Do they demand shorter hours ? No, not that I know of. I have reallv taken
no notice of the communication of the Trades and Labour Council. We know how to conduct our own
business, and must be left to do so as we think best.
™2. Would shorter hours be possible ? Not without inconvenience, I think.
13203. Do you provide houses for your Chinamen ? Tes ; we do provide one house. It is a weather-
board structure, about 12 feet square.
13204 Mr. Hawthorne.] And how many have you seen living there at a time ? Well, at first I saw about
eight, I think, but latterly I have only seen three or four.
13205. If you asked eight of your European gardeners to sleep in that place do you think they would
raise an objection ? Undoubtedly.
13206. Have you noticed the sanitary condition of the premises, as far as the personal habits of the
Chinese affect it ? Tes. I have always found it very clean and tidy. Having so many Europeans about
has kept them up to the mark, I think.
13207. Tou do not find any house accommodation for the European gardeners ? No ; excepting that the
foreman at Botany, and also the foreman at Ashfield, has a house. The Ashfield man gets 45s. a week,
and the house in which he lives is worth another 10s. a week, so that practically his wages amount to 55s.
& week.
13208. Mr. Quong Tart.] Is the work heavy ? At Botany it is very light— the soil there is light and sandy.
13209. Tou say that the men are employed from 6 to 6, but it is not hard work ? No ; for the first
hour or so it is merely going round and picking flowers, and after that it is principally chipping, and so on.
13210. Is there any objection on your part if a man likes to take a spell ? No ; none whatever. If a
man feels a little bit sick there is no objection to his knocking off for the afternoon.
13211. Tou find men sick and off colour sometimes ; — do you deduct anything from their wages ? Well,
it all depends upon the merits of the case. Sometimes there is no deduction at all, and at other times we
only deduct half.
13212. Would there be any deduction for half the absence that occurs ? No ; nothing at all. Some-
times, however, men want to get away for a month's pleasure, and that is a different thing.
13213. Tou do not think that your men work hard for the whole ten hours ? No ; two hours a day
might average pretty hard work, but the rest of the time is employed in clipping and hoeing and cutting
flowers, and so on. It is harder work at Ashfield, because the soil is stiffer, but at Botany it is simply
child's play.
13214. If it rains do they work outside ? Well, if it is only light rain they do, but if it is very heavy
they go inside. They are not supposed to run serious risks of that kind.
13215. Tou say that if you had to pay the Chinese 30s. a week, and could get Europeans for the same
money, you would let the Europeans have the work ? Tes, I think so ; because they are my own people,
and of course one has a natural preference for them, but I must say that our experience of the Chinese
has been very satisfactory.
13216. Do they smoke opium ? Well, they do smoke a good deal, and I suppose it is opium.
13217. Is it an ordinary pipe that they use ? Tes.
13218. Then you may be sure that it is not opium ? Well, perhaps not. I have not noticed particularly,
but as I have said we have been getting a rather superior class of Chinamen.
13219. If it has been said that you have at any time employed twenty Chinamen or more for the purpose
of running Europeans out of the market, is that true ? No ; certainly not.
13220. Supposing there was no complaint on the part of the public about the employment of Chinamen,
would you do exactly what you are doing now ? Tes.
13221. That is, you would employ mostly Europeans, and indeed only one or two Chinamen ? Tes ; as I
said, we received a notice from the Trades and Labour Council the other day, and we wrote back saying that
we declined to discuss the question. We have flattered ourselves upon doing well by our employees, and
must be allowed to make our own arrangements.
13222. The Trades and Labour Council is the only body that has objected in any way to the employment
of Chinese in your nurseries ? Tes ; as far as I am aware.
13223. Nobody at Botany has objected ? No.
13224. Mr. Hawthorne.] Where is your garden at Botany ? It is between the " Sir Joseph Banks' Hotel"
and the Eandwick racecourse. It is just behind Mr. Stephen's place.
13225. Mr. Quong Tart.] I suppose there is a great deal of patience required in working in gardens like
yours ? Tes ; it is careful work.
13226. And you want men to suit that kind of work ? Tes.
13227. Mr. Hawthorne.] In other words, Mr. Quong Tart wants to draw oat this point: that his
nationality are more efficient for that kind of work than our own ? Tes ; I think they have more
patience than Europeans.
13228. But for heavier and more laborious work you find that the Europeans are better ? Tes ; but as
regards patience and neatness the Chinese are admirable. Their beds are always straight and neat.
13229. If you were to go out to-day and compare the work done by a Chinaman and a European in
different portions of the garden, you could pick out the Chinaman's work without being told that it was
his, because of its great neatness ? Tes.
13230. Mr. McKillop.] Tou have no vegetables ? No : only flowers now. When we first broke up the
place we had a little a bit of vegetable garden, but that was only for the purpose of sweetening the soil
and getting it into order for floriculture. 13231.
360 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 13231. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Has it ever suggested itself to you that the Chinese might become a danger to
F. H. Searl. florjsts as they have been to the vegetable-growers ? "Well, we wanted the work done, and that thought
/T*~"^""> has not troubled us in the least.
Dec., 8 . |3232. Have you uot noticed the Chinese on a Saturday selling flowers in the Belmore Market? No ; I
did not know that they do.
13233. At all events, as far as you are able to judge, there is no such danger to the European florists as
there has been to the vegetable-growers ? No.
MONDAY, 7 DECEMBER, 1891.
$rmttt:—
The Mayor op Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-President.
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG- TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. Alfred Sparks called and examined : —
Mr. 13234. President.'] You are the mayor of North Botany, Mr. Sparks ? Yes.
A. Sparks. 13235. How long have you been an alderman of the borough of North Botany ? Since its incorporation,
"C'-'lRfll about 3 years ago.
/ ec, '13236. Mr. Abigail.] In North Botany you have a number of Chinese residents, I believe? Yes; a
considerable number.
13237. About what number should you say ? I find 'by a return prepared by the Council Clerk that
there are fifty-five separate assessments of the Chinese gardens in the borough ; and I think if you
multiply that number by four it will give a fairly correct account of the number of Chinese in the borough.
13238. That would be about 200 ? Yes.
13239. Have you visited any of these places ? I have occasionally during a ten years' residence there.
13240. In your visits have you paid any attention to their sanitary arrangements ? Very little. As a
matter of fact it is a thing you can hardly touch upon. Of course the habitations of the Chinese are of
a very primitive character. They lease the land and pay a high rent; they generally put up a rough
place for themselves, and interfere with nobody.
13241. Then you have not taken much notice of the habitations of the Chinese in your boroughs, and the
sanitary arrangements in connection with them ? I have been in them from time to time, but so far as
any action by the Council is concerned
13242. I Was not asking you about the Council's action just now, but about your own observation of these
places ? "Well, their places are fairly clean, considering the circumstances. They have not boarded floors
or anything of that kind ; but they are, generally speaking, kept fairly clean, I think. So far as the
Council is concerned it has not been deemed necessary to take any action against them. They are not
offensive in anv way.
13243. Are there any European gardeners in your borough ? Very few.
13244. Most of the gardens are kept by Chinese ? Yes ; the great bulk of them.
13245. Do you find them peaceable and well-behaved and so forth as a class ? Very. I have no fault to
find with them.
13246. Do you know Sam Lee and party, who have a garden near the end of the tram terminus at Botany?
No ; that is in the borough of Botany.
13247. Does George Hill's place, between the tram terminus and "Sir Joseph Banks' Hotel," on the left-
hand side going out, come within your borough ? No ; that is also in Botany.
13248. Do you know if there are many European women associating with the Chinese in your borough ?
Occasionally they come there, but not to live with them.
13249. These women come for immoral purposes, I suppose ? Yes ; that would be the inference, but it is
not a matter of common occurrence.
13250. Do you know whether the police are often called upon to interfere with the Chinese there ? I do
not think they are. If so it has never come under my observation — that is, with the exception of the raid
which they made on the Chinese gamblers there, about two months ago.
13251. So far as the Chinese gambling evil is concerned have you ever heard that it is very prevalentin your
borough ? "Well, prior to this raid I have mentioned there were three recognised gambling-houses there.
13252. Has the effect of the raid been to deter them from gambling ? I cannot say that exactly.
Certainly they have not congregated about the places so much since then, but I cannot say it has checked
their gambling propensities. My opinion is that they still gamble in their own places.
13253. But you think the raid has had a beneficial effect so far as these particular gambling-places are
concerned ? It has had the effect of scattering them I should say ; but the Chinese are a class of people
who have few means of recreation as compared with Europeans, and they go to these places to pass away
the time, I should say.
13254. You regard gambling as a pastime with the Chinese, the same as cricket is with the Europeans ?
Yes.
13255. Of your own knowledge I understand you know nothing as to the personal cleanliness of the
Chinese, or their mode of living ? I have frequently entered their places during the ten years I have
lived in the district.
13256. Did you ever hear of the police receiving any presents from the Chinese in connection with the
three gambling-places you have referred to ? No ; as a rule, I may say, the Chinese are very hospitably
inclined, especially at Christmas time or the new year ; they make small presents to everyone around
them pretty well.
13257. Have you ever received any presents from them ? I have on several occasions— trifling presents
at such times.
13258. Have you heard of them making similar presents to policemen ? No.; I have not.
13259. Mr.SawihorneJ] What kind of presents were those vou received? Some preserved ginger, or
something like that — nothing of any value.
13260. Do you know whether these Chinese gardeners work on Sundays? Occasionally. I have seen
them do a little watering in the early part of the morning before the sun comes up.
13261.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — ItlSVTJSS OP EVIDENCE. 361
13261. Are they to be seen working all the day ? No ; I have stated practically all I have seen cf their
working on Sundays. ' A
13262. Mr. Quong Tart.'] How many years nave you been living in that part of Sydney ? Close upon 7<£)ei ,, ,.,,
13263. Have you found that the Chinese have driven the European gardeners out of the field ? Well,
as the Chinese have increased so the Europeans have decreased. There are several reasons for this : The
Chinese generally pay a high rent, and they work longer hours and more continuously than the Euro-
peans, and they do not let the ground lie fallow to the same extent. They grow crop after crop to such
an extent that the Europeans say they impoverish the ground. Certainly they never let it lie idle for any
length of time.
13264. Do you know of any garden being.given up by the Chinese gardeners and left vacant? Yes ;
during the last twelve months half a dozen of the gardens in our borough have been given up by the
Chinese.
13265. Do you know the cause of that ? I can only give my opinion. I should say it was owing to the
state of trade and the high rent.
13266. Now, supposing the Chinese were to leave all their gardens in Botany, do you think the Europeans
would take up the land and work it as the Chinese do ? That is an open question. I scarcely think they
would. Before the Chinese came there in such numbers, 50 per cent, of the gardens were tilled by-
Europeans ; but, as I have stated, they have gradually disappeared owing to the keen competition of the
Chinamen, who work longer hours, more continuously, and live cheaper.
13267. Do you think the European gardeners would show so much patience and perseverance in the dry
season as the Chinese do ? No • they would not to the same extent carry the water, for instance, to water
the beds, which is necessary in the dry seasons.
13268. Tou say you have seen the Chinese gardeners working sometimes on a Sunday ? I have seen them
watering their gardens sometimes up till 8 or 10 o'clock.
13269. That was in a case of emergency, I suppose— do you think that justifiable ? My opinion is that
they are perfectly justified in doing so. ' I would not look upon it from a Sabbatarian standpoint at all. In
the dry season it is necessary for them to work to that extent.
13270. It is just,as necessary as giving the horse food in the stable ? Tes.
13271. Have you had any complaint made of the Chinese in that locality being a nuisance? Not so much of
late, i At one time there used to be complaints about their using night-soil, and so on ; but after the borough
became incorporated they ceased to use it to the same extent, although they do in some gardens now,
but generally in the shape of liquid manure, and then they use it early in the morning.
13272. What kind of manure do they use ? Animal refuse generally brought to a liquid state.
13273. The owners of the land occupied by the Chinese gardeners received the special benefit of high rents
from these people, I understand you to say ? We are all prepared to take high rents no matter where it
comes from. But latterly they have absolutely had to lower the rents because of the Chinese having the
place.
13274. Do you think the Chinese have been induced to give up the gardens — those who have gone away —
by reason of the general slackness of trade ? That is the only reason I can give for that.
13275. Mr. Hatothorne!] How many Chinese gardeners have left your district during the last five years,
do you think ? Well, I do not think there were any left before the last eighteen months. But the
Chinese, as a class, are always selling out one to another, but the garden goes on just in the same manner.
But there have been half a dozen gardens actually given up during the last twelve months. One of
them has been taken by a nurseryman.
13276. What is his name ? Mr. M'Gill ; and there is another which is tilled by Mr. Coward.
13277. Mr. Coward used to be mayor of your borough ? Tes. And there is another garden that belongs
to Mr. Gates, an engine-driver in the Tramway Department.
13278. Do any of the aldermen of your borough own gardens that are rented by the Chinese living in
your district ? Mr. Coward rents a garden to some of the Chinese.
13279. Do the population living in your borough show any particular aversion to the Chinese residents, or
are they opposed to the owners of land leasing their gardens to them ? Well, it is a question that comes
to the surface occasionally, especially in February, when the municipal elections are held.
13280. How many Chinese ratepayers, at a rough guess, do you think you have in your borough? About
200. We collect from them £107 7s.
13281. So, we may conclude that the Chinese voting-power in North Botany has now become of con-
siderable importance to aspiring citizens with an eye to municipal honors ? If it were used it would ; but
as a rule the vote is not used. Personally, I would endeavour to keep them from using the vote.
Attempts have been made to introduce the Chinese vote into municipal politics, but I do not think it is
wise to encourage them, because in nine cases out of ten they absolutely know nothing whatever about the
qualifications of the different candidates ; and their votes are given, if at all, for purely personal
considerations.
13282. How often have you been before the municipal electors, Mr. Sparkes ? On two occasions.
13283. Have you and other aspirants for the position of alderman sent circulars round to the Chinese
soliciting their votes ? I have not. On the last occasion a deliberate attempt was made to bring in the
Chinese vote, but popular pressure to a certain extent kept it back. In Bockdale, and some other
boroughs, the Chinese regularly vote, I believe. Over 100 voted in Bockdale during the last municipal
election there.
13284. Is there any determination on the part of the Presiding Officer at North Botany to prevent the
Chinese ratepayers from exercising their franchise ? I cannot say that. But, as a matter of fact, the
Chinese in ninety-nine cases out of 100 are not able to answer the questions put to them under the Muni-
cipalities Act, if they are challenged ; and, consequently, they are unable to vote.
13285. Tou would not consider their position as voters so strong as to warrant the assumption that the
council or the mayor might be influenced in the direction of overlooking certain offences committed by
them against the municipal law ? I do not think so for a moment. As a matter of fact there is a
popular prejudice against the Chinese which would operate as a counteracting force. Besides, it is well
known that they, being an alien people and having no knowledge of local wants and requirements, would
or could only be influenced in voting by personal likes or dislikes.
13286. They do not take any interest in municipal work generally? No. 13287.
272—2 Z
392 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
132S7. The only time you have seen anything of that has been during the municipal elections? Yes. I
may state that at the last election there were nine or ten Chinamen brought up to vote. I was Presiding
Officer at the time — and, of course, they were challenged, and as they could not answer the questions
ec'' ' correctly they could not be allowed to vote.
1328S. Was that from want of knowledge of the municipal law, or the manners and customs of European
life, or because they did not conform to the Municipalities Act ? It was simply through lack of knowledge
of the questions put to them, and how to answer them. Of course the candidates for whom they are
going to vote endeavour to coach them to a certain extent, so that they may be able to answer the
questions correctly, and perhaps a few of them who have learnt a little English are able to do so.
13289. Are we to understand that you think it would be a danger to municipal life to allow the China-
men to become ratepayers and exercise their votes ? My reason for objecting to the Chinaman voting is
that by the actual circumstances of his position he is practically an alien to the representative institutions
of the Colonies ; and from that point of view I look upon it as a crime to endeavour to involve them in
local politics, which they do not and cannot, in the nature of things, understand, because, unless they
were persuaded, they would not have anything to do with them. If you ask a Chinaman to record his
vote, he does it simply as a personal favour. He has no practical interest in this country, owing to the
widely different character of his early associations and habits. In short, these people adhere very closely
to the habits and institutions of their own land.
13290. What are the questions which are put to the voters, and which you say the Chinese cannot under-
stand ? First, What is the name and business ? 2nd, Has he voted before ? and also if the qualification
is the same now as when the roll was prepared.
13291. Generally, you have not found them able to intelligently answer those questions, and you have to
reject them as voters ? Tes.
13292. So that the number of the Chinese who vote in connection with municipal elections in your
district is not sufficiently large or important to make them a power in the community ? No. I may
state a circumstance which will show you how the Chinamen vote. I think it was a by-election prior to
last February, and Messrs. Foster and Coward were the candidates. A Chinaman whom I had known for
a considerable time came up there, and was standing outside the booth. I caught sight of him just as he
was going in. I may state that the man I was supporting had determined not to call in the aid of the
Chinamen at any cost. However I saw this man going inside the Town Hall gates, and I asked him whom
he was going to vote for. He replied, So-and-so, being my candidate's opponent; so I said, "Don't
vote for him — he's no good ; vote for the other man." The result was that the Chinaman voted for the
man I asked him to. That, in fact, is practically how the thing works.
13293. Tou wish to show that when a Chinaman goes to the polling-booth to vote he can be induced to
vote whichever way he is asked by some personal friend ? Tes ; he has no knowledge of the different
qualifications of the respective candidates.
13294. Would your remarks apply with anything like equal force to the case of a Chinaman who is
engaged in the storekeeping business ? Perhaps not. He might be affected by different influence. But
even a Chinese storekeeper, in nine cases out of ten, in my opinion, would be really ignorant of the
different qualifications of the men seeking to be elected — whether this or that one was really fitted for
the position or not. Consequently in his case, too, his vote would be directed by some one having
personal influence with him.
13295. Would not the same remark apply, in many instances, to Europeans ? Certainly.
13296. Say you saw a European gardener going up to vote, and he was a personal friend of yours, do you
not think your persuasive powers could be used as effectually upon him as upon the Chinese you have
told us of ? I do not think so, speaking generally.
13297. In the case of the European you would not feel quite so sure as to whom he would vote for when
he got inside ? That is the case ; he would very likely have strong prejudices or leanings that my
persuasion could not override.
13298. How often do you go round among the Chinese in your district ? I have never been systematically
round them; but whenever I go through any of the gardens, I generally ^1 may say always — look in at
their premises.
13299. The same as an ordinary friendly visitor ? Tes.
13300. Tour duty, as mayor of the borough, has never taken you to visit the Chinese gardens or
dwellings from a sanitary standpoint ? No.
13301. Has your Inspector of Nuisances general instructions to pay regular visits of inspection to these
places ? Not to my knowledge. If anything were reported, or any complaint were received, of course
he would do so, but not otherwise.
13302. Have there been any complaints on the part of the European residents of North Botany concern-
ing the methods adopted by the Chinese in keeping their gardens — as to any nuisance arising therefrom,
for instance ? Some two or three years ago complaints were made, but since the borough has been incor-
porated the Chinese have been very particular, because they know full well that they are amenable to
the municipal by-laws.
13303. Did the officers of your council ever report anything in connection with the mode of living
amongst the Chinese that was considered detrimental to the sanitary interests of the borough ? No. I
do not know of any occasion on which it was done ; but it might have occurred without having been
reported.
13304. Is your inspector of nuisances paid especially for that work ? No, he is also council clerk.
13305. Is he compelled to devote his time to the duties of his office under the council, or is he allowed to
attend to other duties in the day-time, and do this work in the evening ? No ; all his time is employed
by the council. He is council clerk and inspector of nuisances. He is also supposed to take the levels
of streets, and acts as librarian.
13306. How many aldermen are there in your council ? Nine.
13307. A short time ago you said that you had received a present from the Chinese ; — are we to under-
stand that it was given to you in the way of a present such as would be given to the whole of the alder-
men ? No, I do not think I have received a present since I have been an alderman. I have been a
resident there ten years. Generally there are, perhaps, two men in the garden more intelligent than the
others, who seek to learn English, and when they have questioned me I have occasionally assisted them
with explanations. 13308.
Chinese gambling commission — minutes of evidence.
13308. And these presents you have spoken of were given as a kind of reward, or return for vour kind- *&•
ness in explaining to them the language ? Well, I do not think that exactly ; but if any of the neighbours A- sParlis-
round about are at all courteous to them, so far as wishing them " good-day," and so forth, they are J^"'^?,
almost certain to make small presents to them at particular seasons of the vear. '
13309. And you have not received any presents from Chinamen since you "became an alderman ? No,
not to my recollection. These presents I have spoken of were mere trifling things, in value, perhaps, not
exceeding Is. or Is. 6d.
13310. In short there has never been any reason, either in the value of the presents or anything else,
that the Chinese were trying to bribe you in any way ? Certainly not.
13311. Mr. MoKillop.] Have-you made personal inspection of any of the buildings on these gardens
during any visit you have made to them since you have been an alderman ? I have visited those imme-
diately round where I live.
13312. Have you found these places overcrowded ? You can scarcely call them overcrowded. The places
occupied by the Chinese in these gardens are generally large sheds, and they live four or five, or, perhaps,
six m a shed, which might be 16 ft. x 30 ft. "
13313. Has it ever occurred to you as strange that they have a dread of keeping their windows open-
tor the purpose of ventilation, I mean ? "Well, I have always looked upon that as being due to the
customs of the country from which they come. They never have windows. But the doors are generally
open.
13314 I suppose you admit that it is necessary for the health of the people living around them that they
should observe healthy habits of living ? Yes; but the fact is, so far as my observation extends, that
they enjoy more than the average health of Europeans, and I attribute that to the abstemious manner in
which they live, although they are gradually approaching to the European style of living. Eor instance,
it is no uncommon thing now to see a Chinaman with a loaf of bread, but when I went there first there
was never such a thing to be found in any of their places. This applies more especially to the
Chinese hawkers, who use bread largely instead of rice, and generally live much the same as
Europeans do.
13315. Under the Municipalities Act have you power to compel these people to supply a proper amount
of ventilation, and conform generally to the sanitary regulations ? Yes ; we have power sufficient for
that. But then you must recollect that as a rule these Chinese gardeners live in the very midst of their
gardens, and with unoccupied lands around them. In our borough it is so, at all events. You will not
see another habitation within a couple of hundred yards all around them. Generally the drainage is
imperfect, owing to the low-lying character of the land.
13316. Can you give the Commission any idea how it is that the Chinese have driven the European
gardeners out of your borough as you say ? I have already given the only reasons that have occurred to
me. The Chinese have superseded the Europeans in that line of business, it appears to me, because they
pay a higher rent, work longer hours, live cheaper, and they seem to have a faculty of persistent working,
hour after hour, which the Europeans have not got. In times gone by the Europeans in the district where
I reside did well out of gardening, but at the present time, and with the ruling prices, they cannot do
anything.
13317. The Chinese have more patience and energy ? They certainly have more patience. They are a
very mechanical people in their style of working. Starting as early as 5 o'clock in the morning, they
work until 6 or past 6 at night.
13318. With regard to the Chinese voting at Municipal elections, to which you have stated that you
object, seeing that the Chinese are in appearance so much alike to European eyes, and as they change
places in these gardens so frequently, I suppose it is quite possible that the wrong one would often record
a vote ? In nine cases out of ten that is the case.
13319. The person actually on the roll being away ? Yes.
13320. And such men improperly exercise the franchise, seeing that they have not been residents of the
district sufficiently long to entitle them to vote ? Those are the dry legal grounds, but I think the other
objections to which I have referred are of even greater weight morally speaking.
13321. Has your inspector of nuisances ever had reason to summon the Chinese gardeners for keeping
accumulations of filth on their gardens, or anything of that kind ? To the best of my knowledge he has
not.
13322. Have any European gardeners been summoned for dirty practices ? Not in our borough. With
regard to the Chinese, I should say that they have one great virtue. They are good ratepayers ; that is
to say, they pay their rates regularly and without any trouble. I only know of one case in which a
Chinaman failed to pay the rates, and that was the ease of a man who left the place suddenly.
13323. Have you found the Chinese generally a law-abiding class of people ? Yes ; they are very civil,
inoffensive, and obliging.
13324. Are they tormented to any extent by larrikins making raids upon their gardens ? They used to
be at one time, but not so much now. To a certain extent the larrikins are afraid, because if they go into
one Chinaman's garden and commit some depredation, he would soon rouse his countrymen around him,
and they could make it very warm for them.
13325. Some of these gardens have been brought to a state of perfect cultivation from the virgin soil,
have they not? Yes; a large number of them.
13326. Do you know if they use much human manure in the cultivation of their gardens ? Prior to the
incorporation of the borough they used to use nightsoil, but that has been suppressed since. They get
what they can now from the boiling-down establishments.
13327. Have you noticed what the Chinese use and the Europeans also. Have you noticed that they
used urine ? Some of them use what they call " soup," that is, liquid matter that comes from the boiling-
down establishments.
13328. Have you seen those jars they use in Chinese gardens ? Yes.
13329. Do you know what purpose they are used for ? Yes ; I perfectly understand.
13330. Do the Europeans use it the same as the Chinese ? That I cannot say. I do not suppose there are
above half-a-dozen European gardens in the borough,
13331. Is there a nurseryman named Searl in your borough ? No ; he is in Botany.
13332. Do you know anything about his garden ? No ; I do not.
13333. Is there a nurseryman of the name of M'Gill in your borough ? Yes. .13334.
864 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr- 13334. Does lie employ Chinese or European labour ? I cannot say whether he does employ Chinese
A.Sparks. now He used to when he first formed the garden. I fancy I have seen one there. M'Gill has been
(TZr"^^. there three years. There is another nurseryman named Miliigan ; and also Hazlewood, and Mungen.
7 Dec, 18. 1. 1333- Do t-]ley empi0y Chinese? They all have at one time or another, but do not now.
13336. Does Mr. Coward ? No ; he tills his garden himself. He generally sows it in potatoes.
13337. Do the Chinese follow any other occupations out there besides gardening ? There are Chinamen
butchers who go round visiting the various places.
13338. No storekeepers ? Sue used to, hut he does not now. It is a cabinet-maker's place. I never
looked into the shop. It is in a very low spot.
13339. Have you seen fan-tan tables in these places ? I cannot say I ever saw it in Sue's. I have been
in Tee See's old place when they have been fan-tan playing, with a lot of counters. I have been there
twice. The first time they asked me what I wanted, and stopped playing.
13340. Have you ever seen any of the pak-ah-pu lottery tickets ? Tes ; any number of them.
13341. Have you noticed Europeans taking these tickets ? No.
13342. The traffic in thorn is principally amongst the Chinese, you think ? It is almost exclusively
confined to them, I should say. They generally get the tickets from Sydney. I have marked hundreds of
them.
13343. Not for yourself ;— you have done it for them, I suppose? Tes; they will come to you and ask
you to mark the tickets for them for luck.
13344. Mr. Quong Tart.'] Eegarding the voting, Mr. Sparks, you say that the Chinese have not been
allowed to vote on account of not being able to answer certain questions put to them by the officers at the
booth; — do you put similar questions to Europeans? Tes; every one is challenged. Tou see each
candidate has a scrutineer, to whose interest it is to prevent, if he can legally do so, a vote being recorded
for the opposite side ; and if a scrutineer imagines a man's qualification is not good, he immediately
challenges him.
13345. Tou object to the Chinese voting ? Tes, I object, because they are an alien race without a particle
of interest in the institutions of the country.
13346. Supposing a Chinese merchant was paying £200 a year in rates, would it be fair to deprive him of
the privileges of citizenship in this respect, because he happens to be a Chinaman ? Of course legally
they are as much entitled to vote as a person born and bred in the Colony. I was simply expressing a
personal opinion when I said I would not for my own part encourage or induce them to take part in an
election.
13347. Tou know it is the boast of Englishmen that they love freedom and fair play ; — do you call it
freedom to prevent one man who pays rates enjoying the right to vote which another man in the same
position has ? It is not freedom, I candidly admit that. But still for the reasons I have given I do not
think it desirable to bring the Chinese residents into the elections.
1334S. I suppose you sometimes find Europeans who do not understand the process of voting at elections
the same as the ignorant Chinese ? Tes.
13349. Do you think it right to make one law for the Englishmen and another for the Chinamen on the
same level? Well, I think there is something above that to be considered. There is not, as I have
explained, in my opinion, the community of interest which is desirable in matters of the kind. There may
come a time when they will be able to, but at present I think they are as well left alone, especially as
they do not want to exercise the privilege. As I have explained to you already, it is almost a matter of
compulsion when they do vote.
13350. Take persons of other nationalities— say the Italians, would they be allowed to vote ? "Well, it
is really a question of municipal ethics, so to speak ; if you were a scrutineer, and had a candidate in the
field, and the Italian vote was against you, if you could block him you would do so, and challenge him
accordingly. That is the state of the case, putting it in a general way.
13351. Do you know how much the Chinese in your borough pay in rent per year, the total amount ? I
cannot say. I know it is a considerable sum.
13352. Is all the land worked by them owned by Europeans ? Tes.
13353. "Was any of the land worked by other persons prior to the Chinese gardeners taking it up ? Tes,
in numbers of cases it had been.
13354. In how many cases, what proportion, do you think the Chinese cleared the land themselves ? I
should say one-half or two-thirds had been European gardens previously.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. Thomas "Watson called and examined : —
Mr. 13355. Mr. Abiaail.] What position do you occupy ? Council Clerk and Inspector of Nuisances of
T.Watson. Norfh Botany/ '
fC^lsei 13356. What are your duties as Inspector of Nuisances ? I make regular inspections of the premises in
"' " the borough, and attend to all complaints that may be sent in from any of the ratepayers, and look after the
welfare of the borough generally, as regards its sanitary condition.
13357. Have you held that position since the borough was first incorporated ? No ; I have only held the
position for about eight months.
13358. How often do you make inspections of the borough ? I make a general inspection once a quarter,
and I make a special inspection if I am called upon, that is, if any complaint is made.
13359. Have you been called upon to make any inspections of the Chinese premises in your borough
recently ? I have never once been called upon to make inspections out of the ordinary way. I have
inspected them.
13360. In what condition, generally, have you found their premises ; — are they clean and well ventilated ?
I cannot say that they are extra well ventilated or particularly clean or tidy.
13361. Have you ever noticed smells of an offensive character about them ? No, I cannot say there is.
13362. With regard to the sleeping accommodation, are they crowded together very much ? Tes, they lie
pretty close together ; in some cases they use bunks ; in others they lie on the boards with a mat and a
pillow.
13363. The population is not very dense in your borough ? No ; we have a small and scattered
population. 13364.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 80S
13364. If any nuisance did exist on the Chinese premises other people are not sufficiently close to them . *&'"••
to be noticeably affected by it ? No. T^Watso*.
13365. Do you know if there is much Chinese gambling carried on in your borough? I believe it is to a /^JeciaJl
great extent among the Chinese themselves, but they are very strict about not admitting outsiders. I *'
know of only one case where they allowed a European in while they were gambling.
13366. Do they quarrel and fight much in these- places ? No ; we have no trouble with the Chinamen
there at all. I have never received a complaint respecting a Chinese gambling-house.
13367. Do they pay their rates regularly? Yes.
13368. You have no particular cause of complaint against them as a class? None whatever. I may
mention that I knew a case where two young men, Europeans, visited one of these gambling-dens— the
one where the raid was made last— and as soon as they went in the gambling was stopped, and they were
told to go out by the Chinamen there.
13369. Are there many women living with them ? I do not know of a single instance of a woman living
with them.
13370. Have you known women to visit them ? No.
13371. Do the Chinese gardeners work on Sundays ? Yes.
13372. Are there any Europeans keeping gardens out there ? Yes.
13373. Do you know if they employ Chinamen to work their gardens ? In one or two instances ; but I
cannot speak with certainty. I know they do employ Chinamen.
13374. You know they work on Sundays ? Yes ; I have seen them in the morning, on the main Botany
Eoad, when they have been pulling the potatoes.
13375. Would that be for their own consumption ou Sunday ? I cannot say.
13376. Mr. Quong Tart.} At what time did you see them working on Sunday ? " At different times, but in the
morning principally.
13377. How many would be working at the garden ? Generally two or three.
13378. Have the police ever stopped them, or interfered with them ? Not in my time. I have only been
there seven or eight months.
13379. Concerning the gambling, do you know what kind of gambling they indulge in ? I am told they
play fan-tan ; but I do not understand it, and 1 have never seen them play.
13380. Have you seen the pak-ah-pu lottery drawn? I have seen that ; but it was some time before I
took office. I know very little about it.
13381. Mr. McXillop.} Have you noticed much opium-smoking there ? No ; they do it at night-time, I
think ; and I am very seldom about the Chinese places in the evening.
13382. Have you heard of Europeans visiting these places at night-time, for the purpose of smoking
opium ? I have not.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. James Ealph called and examined : —
13383. Mr. Abigail.} You are mayor of Alexandria, Mr. Ealph ? Yes. Mr. J. Ralph.
13384. In your borough there is a place called Eetreat-street? Yes. ,-~^^~*
13385. Have you visited that part of the borough ? I have frequently. 7 Dec, 1891.
13386. Have you seen the fan-tan tables in the Chinamen's quarters ? I have not. I know that gambling
goes on.
13387. Have you noticed many Europeans about ? Yes ; they intermingle freely.
13388. Do you think that the carrying on of fan-tan, gambling, and opium-smoking to the extent they
do there, tends to elevate the tone of the people in that part of your district ? Quite the reverse.
13389. Then you would like to see it done away with ? Yes ; decidedly.
13390. Have you ever visited the sheds in Eetreat-street, where the Chinese live, and made a personal
inspection of them for yourself ? No ; I have not. Eor what information I have on the subject I am
indebted to our inspector.
13391. Would you be surprised if I were to tell you that the condition of these places is such that no
European would allow a dog to live in them ? I would not be surprised. I know they sleep in bunks
one above the other.
13392. Have you not power under the Municipalities Act to remove these places, seeing that they are a
manifest nuisance to the whole of the district ? No ; I do not think we have.
13393. I suppose the inspector of nuisances would know more about the condition of these places, and
the law bearing upon it, than yourself ? Yes ; I think he has all the information that you require to
obtain on this subject. I sent him especially to collect information to bring before the Commission.
13394. As Mayor of the Borough it is your duty to give instructions to the officers of the council, is it
not? Yes.
13395. Have you ever instructed your inspector to make special inspections of these places and report to
you, or the council ? No ; not to report to the council. But when I heard that the Commission would
require information on the subject, I instructed him to go round and collect the information necessary.
13396. Mr. Hawthorne!] How long have you been mayor of the Borough of Alexandria ? Since
February last.
13397. Mr. Abigail.'] Has the question of the Chinese mode of living— the sanitary, moral, and social
conditions of the people— in your borough, ever been brought before the council while you have been a
member of it ? No.
13398. How long have you been an alderman of the council ? Nearly five years.
13399. And this question has never been considered of sufficient importance to form the subject of any
debate or discussion by the council ? I think there was some slight discussion on one occasion, but that
was all. It has often been in my mind to visit them. I think something should be done.
13400. I would recommend you, as mayor of the borough, to make a personal inspection, as the Com-
mission has done, of these quarters, and I am quite sure you will find that they require rooting out for
the benefit of the community ;— I gather from what you have said that you are strictly opposed to gamb-
ling? Certainly.
13401. Does that remark apply to all forms of gambling ? Yes ; I am opposed to all forms ot gambling.
13402. And also to opium-smoking, I presume ? Yes. 13403.
366 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. J. Ralph. 134,03. Do you know anything of the opium-smoking carried on in some of these places ? I do not.
„ C^"*""""! 13404. When the Commission visited that quarter of your borough they went into five of these places,
' Dec-' 1891- and in every one of them found fan-tan tables and opium-sinokiDg. In two of the places we caught the
inmates in the act of gambling ; — I am telling you this for your own information, as the mayor of the
borough, so that you may know what is going on, and take action if you think fit, so far as the law allows
you to deal with this matter ? Personally, I have looked upon it as a matter entirely for the police to
deal with.
13405. "Would it not assist the police if your officers, on making their inspections, if they found anything
wrong in that way, reported it to the police ? I do not think it would be.
18406. Is it not part of their duty to assist the authorities in preventing a state of things which degrades
the community ? I am quite satisfied the authorities know all about it.
13-107. If they know all about it in the light of the information I have put before you do you think
they have done as much as they could have done to suppress it ? I do not.
13408. Tou think there has been a laxity on the part of the authorities in dealing with it ? I do.
13409. Mr. Hawthorne.] You think the conduct of the officers of your council has been all that could be
desired in this matter, but that the conduct of the officers of the police has been wanting in vigour aud
earnestness ? Well, the council might, perhaps, have done a little more than it has done, but seeing
that the police should have grappled with it, I fail to see that the council has neglected its duty in
any way.
13410. Do you know the general character of the Chinese in that particular locality — Retreat-street ?
I should imagine, from the appearance of the places and what I know of them, that they get their living
by gambling. I have seen the Chinamen lounging about, smoking, and going from one hut to another.
13411. Do they pay their rates regularly ? "Well, a number of the buildings there belong to one party —
Mrs. M'Elhinney — who kept a public-house there. "We have to summons her frequently.
13412. However, your opinion is, that these people are a very undesirable class of residents ? Yes;
there can be no two opinions about that.
[The witness withdrew.]
7 Dec, 1891.
Mr. Wm. Setchell calledand examined: —
Mr. 13413. President.'] You are inspector of nuisances for the Borough of Alexandria ? I have occupied that
W^Setchell. p0Sitj0n for about twelve months.
13414. "What was your occupation before that ? I was a contractor in the same locality.
13415. How long liave you been in that locality ? Twenty-five years.
13410. You have an intimate knowledge of the Chinese settled in your borough, I suppose? Yes.
13417. And in the course of your duties you have visited the various gardens and dwelling-places of the
Chinese ? Yes.
13418. Are they generally in a satisfactory sanitary condition ? In one or two instances I have had
occasion to make them clean their premises up.
1341.9. State their general condition ? They are not, as a rule, nearly as clean as the Europeans. '
13420. Are they not mostly market-gardeners ? Yes ; but also there is a small colony of them in Retreat-
street, dealers, and persons of that class.
13421. "What kind of dwelling-places have they ? Some of them two-storey places, and also cottages,
built of brick.
13422. How many ? There are about a dozen brick places ; then there is a long building, which the
Chinese erected themselves ; it is built of Hobart-town palings.
23423. In what condition do the Chinese live in the brick houses ; how many live in one room, f or instance ?
I cannot tell you.
13424. When you make an inspection of these places, do you not collect such facts ? Not as to how
many live on the premises.
13425. Did you not notice the number of Chinese bunks in a room? I have not seen many. I may
say these places are mostly used for gambling purposes, not for residential purposes.
13426. What was the state generally of the brick houses inside; were they clean and tidy ? They were
very good when I visited them, for Chinese residences.
13427. Have you, in the course of your duty, ever found it necessary to summon any of them ? No.
13428. That was, you found the conditions of their dwellings satisfactory? For Chinese places I
thought so.
13429. Does the same remark apply to the wooden-houses ? They were burnt down some eighteen months
ago, and have been rebuilt.
13430. Have you not gone inside these places ? No.
13431. How many rooms are there in the brick houses ? Four as a rule.
13432. On your visits did you go into each of the rooms ? Not upstairs.
13433. Did you find the privy arrangements satisfactory ? Yes.
13484. How do they dispose of the night-soil? They have the pan system, 'and the borough carts take it
away every week.
13435. There are twenty -five houses in that street; — how many of them are gambling-places ? I 'know of
nine or ten, I think.
13436. The other houses are used simply for residential purposes ? I have not seen gambling going on
in them. There are two or three used as shops.
13437. Have you ever seen any young white women in that quarter on any of your visits ? No.
13438. Have you noticed any women at all ? I have seen women who are living with the Chinese — they
may be married to them.
13439. Is it within your knowledge that the Chinese living in your borough seduce young white girls, or
entice them to their houses for immoral purposes ? Nothing of the kind ever came to my knowledge.
13440. How many opium dens are there in your borough ? They all smoke opium more or less in -the
houses I have been in.
13441. You have not seen any women smoking the drug ? No.
13442. How many Chinese gardens — seperate holdings— are there in Alexandria? I cannot tell you off
hand ; but I can furnish you with the exact number afterwards if you want it. 13443.
CHINESE GAMBLING- COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 367
13443. Have you made inspection of the market gardens ? I have gone over them. Mr.
13444. How many people live in the huts in these gardens ? About seven or eight generally. ^- Setehell.
13445. How many rooms do the dwelling-places contain ? Sometimes two, and sometimes three or four. ^CT^^T^
13446. Do the people living in these huts observe the ordinary precautions for the preservation of health ' ec-' 1891'
or as a defence against disease ? They live together after their own fashion. There is usually the ground
floor only, and no fire-place.
13447. What kind of closets have they ? Ordinary pit closets.
13448. Are these closets near to or far from the house ? Some of them about 10 yards away and others
20 yards. J J
13449. Tou did not find them adjoining the huts in any case ? No.
13450. Where do they have the stable— alongside the hut ? Yes ; it is right up against the house in
most cases, in the form of a kind of small lean-to.
13451. Do you think that is conducive to health, having the stable adjoining or under the same roof as
the dwelling ? I should think it would not be very healthy.
13452. Do they take care to drain off the horses' urine ? No.
13453. The earth becomes saturated with it ? Yes.
13454. Is there, or have you noticed, a bad smell from the Chinese gardeners' huts ? No, not a bad
smell ; but there is generally a peculiar smell in all Chinese places.
13455. Have you ever had reason to bring any of the Chinese gardeners before the Court for having
unclean premises ? No.
13456. Do you know anything about the methods of cultivation emploved by the Chinese— how they
fertilise the soil, for instance ? They use horse manure.
13457. Is it not a fact that they use human excreta and urine ? Not that I know of.
13458. Do you not know that they use it from the closet pit ? They may do so ; but I do not know
of it. " r j j >
13459. Do you not know that they preserve the urine separate from the solid excreta, keep it in cans or
jars, and sprinkle it over growing vegetables ? Not that I am aware of.
13460. Do you know whether the Chinese market-gardeners keep on their premises the conveniences for
playing fan-tan ? Not that I have seen.
13461. Do they play pak-ah-pu in your borough ? In Eetreat-street they do.
13462. Do many white people go there ? They go there.
13463. Do the police ever make a raid upon them ? Yes ; a short time ago they did. I was in a. place
there on Saturday night.
13464. Were they gambling then ? Yes ; they were playing fan-tan.
13465. Were there any other Europeans there besides you ? Yes ; there was a young man who was with
me, and one who was playing. There were ten Chinamen and one white man when we went in.
13466. As a rule, do Europeans attend these gambling-houses in numbers ? Yes.
13467. But you only found one there on that occasion? Yes.
13468. Have you reported the matter to the police ? It is well known to the police.
13469. Do the market-gardeners work on a Sunday? Yes ; in every garden in the borough.
13470. Continuously ? Yes. There is work done in every garden — not exactly all day — but in every
garden you will see them working. They generally work during the forenoon.
13471. Is that not an infringement of the law ? No ; there is no Act to deal with them.
13472. Have persons not been summoned and fined for Sunday working ? There is no fine. If they
are convicted it is so many hours in the " stocks," and we have no machinery to carry out the law in that
respect.
13473. They have not to your knowledge been summoned and fined? Not since I have been inspector.
13474. Are there many cabinet-makers in your borough ? There are about six.
13475. How do they dispose of their goods ? They bring them into town.
13476. Mr. Abigail^ Did the Mayor of Alexandria instruct you last week to pay a number of visits to
these places in Retreat-street ? He did not. We were talking over it, and I said I would go round and
have a look ; that is the reason why I went on Saturday night, as I have said. It was an understood
thing.
13477. Do you report to the mayor the result of your observations in such cases ? Yes.
13478. What report did you make to him as to the twenty-five huts at the further end of Eetreat- street ?
Well, I cannot say I reported at all.
13479. Did you go inside them ? No.
13480. Then you were not in a position to say whether they were fit for occupation or not? No.
13481. As a matter of fact, this Commission has assured itself, by personal inspection, that those places
are not fit for a dog to live in, so filthy are they. Is it not your duty to see that the whole district is not
poisoned in that way ? Well, it was the practice before, and has been allowed to stand. As I have told
you, I have only been in office twelve months.
13482. Your business is to inspect these as well as other places, I presume ? Yes.
13483. And to report to the mayor and council, and make recommendations if you find anything dangerous
or injurious ? Yes.
13484. But you have not done so up to the present time ? No.
13485. Let me recommend you to make a personal inspection of the interior of these places. The Com-
mission is of opinion, at any rate, that it would be difficult to find in all Australia anything to equal them
for dirtiness, and insanitary conditions generally, and that they ought to be razed to the ground. Regarding
the brick houses, you say that nine of them are used for gambling purposes ? Yes; there are six such
houses in Betreat-street, and three in Botany Boad.
13486. And in most of these places fan-tan and opium-smoking are carried on to a large extent ? Yes ;
you can see them from the street.
13487. Do you know what occupations the Chinese follow who live in the huts in that quarter ? They
are dealers, vegetable hawkers, rag-gatherers, and so forth.
13488. Do you know how much they pay a week for some of these huts ? I cannot say.
13489. Mr. Hawthorne, .] How often are you supposed to visit those places for purposes of inspection ?
There is no stated time.
13490. Have you never been called upon for a report in regard to the Chinese habitations in your
borough? No. 13491.
5JQ8 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 13491. And you never made one ? No.
W. Setehell. 13492. Mr. Abigail] And never having inspected these places inside, you canuot say whether they stow
' *-""N the vegetables — those that they bring back at night after a day's hawking — under their stretchers in the
7 Dec., 1891. sleeping.room ? No.
13-493. But you think that would not be a desirable state of things, I suppose? Certainly it would not.
I do not allow my wife to buy from Chinamen.
13494. And you do not think they are a desirable class of residents ? No ; I do not.
13495. The Chinese you have met are quiet and amenable to the law outwardly, I suppose ? Tes ; they
are quiet enough.
13496. Mr. Quong Tart.'] How many European gardeners are there in your district ? About four.
13497. Do they work on Sundays ? Not that I am aware of.
13498. In what part were the Chinese gardens in which you saw the men working on Sunday? Near
the road ; they were watering and weeding.
13499. Are the European gardens near the road too ? Not so close.
13500. Do you know any Chinese who speak English well out there ? They are mostly gardeners whom
I know. There is a storekeeper on the Botany-road, near the tram terminus, and a butcher, who both
speak English tolerably well.
13501. Do the respectable Chinese encourage gambling at all ? Not that I am aware of.
13502. Do you know how it is that so much Chinese gambling is allowed to be carried on without police
interference ? They are very careful — the Chinese. Eor instance, on the Saturday night I went in
there, there was a gentlemanly-dressed Chinaman standing outside ; and as I went in, he gave a whisper
to those inside that I was there. I stood at the table for about two or three minutes. Directly they
saw me there was a scatter out of the room at once.
1 3503. "What was that Chinaman like that you have referred to, at the door — was he tall ? Tes ; pretty
tall, and well dressed.
13504. Do you know his name ? No. I have been informed that there is never the same banker therefor
any length of time. They change about in and out of the city.
13*505. Now, have you any idea as to how this gambling could be stopped — can you make a suggestion ?
The only way that I can see is to prosecute them constantly, and frighten them.
13506. Mr. Abigail.] Have not the police done that ? They have not done it as well as they might have
done it.
13507. They have not proceeded against them frequently enough ? No.
13508. In short, they have not shown activity enough ? No. I may say they never take any notice of a
man in uniform. They assume he is on his regular duty. But when they see a man in private clothes
they at once suspect danger to themselves. That is how they came to stop so suddenly when I went in
on Saturday night, as I have told you.
13509. Mr. Quong Tart.] What do you think of the game of pak-ah-pu ; — do you think it as bad as fan-
tan, or more dangerous ? I have never played it ; but those who have tell me that it offers a better
chance than fan-tan — that it does not admit of so much trickery.
13510. Mr. Hawthorne.] Was yesterday the first Sunday you have been engaged in going round the
Chinese dens ? Tes.
13511. And if it had not been for the notice from this Commission you would not have considered it
necessary to go there ? No.
13512. Mr. Quong Tart.] Tou have said you would not buy from Chinamen. Do they not grow most of
the vegetables in the market ? What I mean is that I do not like the Chinese hawkers. I know that
the Europeans get a quantity of vegetables from the Chinese gardeners to sell again ; but they get the
vegetables straight from the garden, whereas the hawkers, I suppose, frequently keep the vegetables in
their dwelling places. I would sooner deal with the gardeners direct.
13513. Mr. Jlawthorne.] Have you been into the dwellings to see for yourself whether the Chinese
hawkers stow vegetables and other articles of food they trade with, in their dwellings ? No. The reason
is that these places are nearly always locked up all day, and I cannot visit any place after 6 o'clock.
13514. How often have you been called upon to summon Chinamen for infringement of the sanitary
laws or regulations ? I have never summoned a Chinaman.
13515. Do you find them superior to the Europeans from a sanitary stand point ? No.
13516. How many Europeans have you summoned for infringement of the sanitary law ? I cannot say
exactly. But for dirty premises, I think, not more than half a dozen since I have been inspector.
13517. Do you think the half dozen whom you summoned for having dirty premises compared unfavorably
with the Chinese ? Tes.
13518. Tou think they were worse than any Chinese you have living in the locality ? I do.
13519. So that you have dirtier Europeans than you have Chinese in your borough? In half a dozen cases.
13520. Tour council has never asked you for any special report in regard to the Chinese quarters ? No.
13521. Mr. McKillop.] Tou have resided in Alexandria for twenty-five years ? Tes.
13522. Were there any gardens there belonging to Europeans previous to the Chinese going to the
district ? Tes.
13523. Were many of the gardens, belonging to the Chinese at the present time, in the first instance
formed by Europeans ? Tes, the majority of them.
13524. Can you give us any idea as to the cause or reason why the Chinese gradually superseded the
Europeans in this business ? The only reason I can think of is that the Chinese work on a cheaper
principle — and they offered higher rents. They generally bought the Europeans out.
13525. What number of gardens are there in your borough? I cannot tell you just now.
13526. Does your borough derive much revenue from them ? Not very much, I should say.
13527. Can you give any idea ? No, I cannot.
13528. _ With the exception of those in Eetreat-street, are there many Chinese living in your borough ?
There is a colony of them just at the tram terminus, and one further on, where the old fruit preserving
works used to be ; but those have got proper sanitary accommodation — I have been through them.
[The witness withdrew.]
TUESDAY,
CHINESE GAMBUX& C0MMIS3I0X — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 369
TUESDAY, 8 DEQEMBEB, 1891.
ftosent:—
The Mayor op Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
1? 4 A^ W Y^r ^S^' ESQ-' J-P- ViCE-PbESIDEST.
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. J. ishburton Thompson, M.D, D.P.H., called and examined ;—
13529 President-] Tou occupy an official position in connection with the Board of Health, Dr. Thompson ? Mr. J. A .
Tes ; I am Chief Medical Inspector. ' 1 Thompson,
13530. I suppose, in the course of your official duties, you have from time to time visited some of the MD-
Chinese gardens in and around Sydney ? Yes. / — -"- — *
13531. Do you recollect when you made the first visit ? No, I do not; but I think it was probably in 8 Dec-' 1891
connection with small-pox in the middle of 1884.
13532. And at various times since then you have visited the Chinese gardens ? Tes ; I have visited them
m all parts of the country.
1 1 «?' SaVG J°\ iad oecasiou to visit the Chinese dwelling-places in the city and suburbs of Sydney ? Tes.
Id5d4. JN ow, with regard to the mode in which the Chinese cultivate their gardens and fertilise the soil
will you tell the Commission, in your way, what your experience has been, and what conclusions you have
come to on the subject, m so far as it relates to the health of the citizens ? Tes. As to the method of
cultivating, that is almost the same as the method of cultivating a sewage farm ; but of course in
execution, as it is carried on on a very small scale by a number of different proprietors, it is not done
nearly so well as it is on a sewage farm. The utilisation of sewage in that way is quite scientific, and
quite sate as regards health. There is no objection whatever, on the score of' health, to the vegetable
products of land thus manured with human waste; only this precaution ought to be observed, that
nothing which is grown in that way ought' to be eaten except after cooking.
13535. Then there is no difference between the application of sewerage on a scientific principle as
resulting from the operations of a sewage farm and the rough application of human waste, to the pur-
pose of cultivation by the Chinese ? There is no practical difference, except this— that in the arrange-
ment for collecting the sewage by a system of sewers it is delivered at the farm in a fresh state, whereas,
under the system by which it is applied to the Chinese gardens, it is not fresh ; that is all.
13536. What is the difference in the effect upon the soil ? Simply this : that when the sewage is fresh it
has in it elements which are useful as manure, which are lost in the process of putrefaction.
13537. So that, as a matter of fact, the application of human waste— excreta and urine — by the Chinese
to their gardens is not to be objected to any way, save with regard to such vegetables as come on to the
table without cooking ? Exactlv.
13538. So long as the vegetables treated in this way are cooked before being eaten you see nothing pre-
judicial to human health in the consumption of them ? No. Objection would only arise in the case of
salads, such as lettuce, tomatoes, and other things which are eaten raw, and require a great deal of washing.
That, I think, is a recognised principle, that as vegetables grown on a sewage farm are inevitably brought
into contact with the sewage, it is neither wise nor wholesome to eat them raw, because the ordinary
process of washing cannot be relied upon to remove it all.
13539. Have you any notes on this subject for the further information of the Commission ? No; but the
Commission have directed my attention to four properties occupied by Chinese. I examined them on 5th
December, as well as the short notice given allowed — not fully, but fully enough to enable me to give
evidence concerning them. Before doing so, I beg leave to make a preliminary remark. I shall have to
describe insanitary conditions of a very gross kind, and the remark I wish to make beforehand is this : if
my strictures should be taken to have special applicability to Chinese just because they are illustrated by
reference to dwellings which happen to be occupied by Chinese, their true bearing will be missed. As
for the Chinese poor, I have always observed them to be very much like the poor of other nations ; but
they are, in my opinion, seldom quite so dirty, so indifferent to comfort and decency, or so squalid as some
of our own poor often are ; while in point of personal cleanliness they are upon the whole very much
better. They have a tendency to live in small and dark rooms, and in what we call a muddle, which is
derived doubtless from their birth in a much overcrowded country ; but with exception of that local
peculiarity, which the laws of our country do not restrain, I find them no worse, and in some important
respects, much superior to the poor of our own race. It would be a serious error if the grossly insanitary
state of the dwellings I have to describe were regarded as especially due to their occupation by Chinese.
I have already on many occasions described the same or worse faults with reference to dwellings occupied
by whites. In short, the faults to be pointed out are due neither to poor whites nor to poor Chinese, but
to those of us who know what sanitary laws are necessary, and yet as a community either do not enact
them, or else if we enact them, yet do not faithfully execute them. I went first to a property which
stands in Alexandria. It is reached by a very short street, called Eetreat-street, which turns off the western
side of the Botany Eoad, a little distance short of the Waterloo Public "School. It consists of a double
row of brick cottages, three or four on each side. The houses look dirty and untidy outside. There is a
sewer down the middle of the street, which has been gazetted as ready for house-connection for more than
two months, and a manhole at the western end, and against the south-western house is a sewer ventilator.
This short street is inhabited by Chinese. The houses have scarcely any curtilage— scarcely any yard at the
back ; water is laid on to them, but there are no gullies to carry off the waste, although they stand in
contiguity to a sewer, and notwithstanding that circumstance, their dilapidated and filthy closets are fitted
with pails. That, I think, is enough to say about these cottages at this time, but if they could be presented
for demolition as being unfit for habitation, there would be no difficulty in making out a strong case
against them, I believe, on the score of improper construction. Passing out of the street to the
west, over the manhole of the unused sewer, an area of irregular sandy ground is reached, which
is surrounded on its other three sides by vegetable gardens. I dare say it may be about an acre in size,
perhaps
272—3 A
870 CHINESE OAMBLiyCr COMMISSION— MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. J. A. perhaps a little larger. Upon it is a series of sis long low sheds, built for the purpose to which they are
M?>30n' now Put' ancl ncarlv uniform in construction. They are of sawn wood, which is very old, green with
/^J»J^>1 moss, and apparently the wreckof a paling fence. They are about IS feet wide ; their walls are about
8 Dec, 1801. ? f°et high ; the roofs are open to the ridge; they are divided by cross partitions about 10 feet apart,
and each division thus made has a door and is a tenement in which one or sometimes two men live. The
floor is sometimes the natural surface, and then it is often covered neatly with sacks, Ac. In some places
there are no sacks, and in some others the tenant has put in a wooden floor, or rather has laid down
boards. There are no windows ; the light comes in part from the door of entrance when it is open, and
in part from shuttered holes in the walls. The best point about these hutches is the disrepair and
imperfect fitting of walls and roof : these are eked out with bits of tin, scraps of sawn wood, and sacking ;
but luckily not so perfectly as to prevent a very free ventilation. There are no internal fixtures what-
ever ; no fire-place, for instance. The fire is made either on the ground, and the wooden walls protected
with sheets of tin, or else on a wooden shelf covered with clay, and the fire retained with two or three
bricks, and, of course, there is no chimney. In short, the tenements are rotten sheds, fit for nothing but
destruction ; and all the five living blocks are sufficiently described thus. But in two or three cases where
the tenement is used for a carpenter's shop, the size is considerably larger, and then the tenants sleep in the
shop either in very small hutches partitioned off from the working space, or in a perch or loft made by
putting a kind of ceiling under the roof, or else on the table with blankets enclosed under a sort of tent
which everywhere is the type of Chinese bed. All of these tenements show within signs of domestic com-
fort, such as is possible, and of ornament ; they vary in this respect and in cleanliness with the character of
the occupants just as other peoples tenements do ; and against the occupants regarded as poor people,
who must live under such accommodation as their means afford and as the laws allow I have no complaint
to make. These five barracks are inhabited, two by cabinet-makers, one by rag-pickers, one by gardeners,
one by vegetable-hawkers; and besides these there is a sixth long shed, open on one side, and divided into
stalls, in which there is just room enough for their horses to stand. That sufficiently describes the tene-
ments and their inhabitants ; the latter being reputed to number about eighty. I come to the general
sanitary state of the camp, as distinguished from housing and personal cleanliness. There is no water
laid on, though the mains are close by ; they carry all their water from a shallow hole in one of the con-
tiguous vegetable gardens, which hole must, in consideration of the usual mode of manuring, furnish a not
very diluted sample of sewage. Then for these eighty people there are six privies arranged in three pairs
at different points on the outskirts of the camp, built of brick, not connected with the neighbouring sewer
but furnished with pans, and the whole ricketty, filthy, and offensive in an extreme degree. They are
emptied by the municipal contractor. Besides the privies the vegetable-gardeners have erected two urinals
opposite their dwellings, which consist of a large covered earthen-pot, very decently surrounded with three
old sheets of iron ; they were kept clean ; the collection is valued by the gardeners for manure; and the
other traders contribute to it " without charge," as one of them told me. The stables have sawn wood
floors, very irregular, aud as filthy as the similar floors of cow-bails, which the Board of Health has
experienced so much trouble in getting removed from the sheds of European cow-keepers ; and
there was everywhere neglect to sweep up and collect the dung regularly — for no doubt it
is ultimately swept up for use and not wasted. There was also a good deal of garbage scattered
about the general surface — chiefly of vegetable kinds, and a more or less offensive smell everywhere.
That is all I have to say about this camp as it stands. It will be noticed that it is, together with the
brick cottages' in Betreat-street, unfit for human habitation. I regard the place as a standing menace
to the public health ; for the neighbourhood is populous, and the camp is exemplary of places in which
epidemic diseases are fostered when they have been once accidentally introduced, and from which they are
spread throughout cities. Now I will point out how it comes about that so insanitary an area exists.
In the first place as to improper construction both of the sheds and of the cottages : there is no law in
New South "Wales to prevent the building of houses in ways very well known to be dangerous to health,
or to cause houses to be built with observance of certain precautions known to be necessary to preserve
health. Any person who has land may build where he pleases, on what plan he pleases, and on what
foundation he pleases — even if that foundation should be nothing but garbage, as I have lately shown
was done in the borough of Eedf ern, as well as elsewhere. So that if these poor people live in insanitary
structures the fault is not theirs : it is the fault of the community that exercises no control in a matter
which is pre-eminently in need of legal control — without which legal control it is properly transacted in no
country in the world. So much on the fundamental point of structure and plan. As for other conditions
there are existing laws which, if they had been reasonably well executed by the Council of Alexandria
would have prevented the following matters. The sewer down the middle of Betreat-street has been gazetted
more than two months, and yet the Council have not taken steps to abolish the pail-privies in the houses of
that street, or to provide them with drainage for their slop-waters. The law affords a very simple and a
summary remedy ; all the Council need have done was to draw the attention of the Water and Sewerage
Board to the matter by letter ; and then that Board would either have compelled the owner to make
connection with the sewer or else would have made it for him if he failed, and have recovered the cost
from him. As a matter of fact that Board has of its own motion taken the first step ; but had the Alex-
andria Council chosen to attend to it, it might by this time have been already done. But even two
months ago, before this branch sewer was finished they could have caused the filthy, tumbledown, offen-
sive and dangerous pail-closets tq be converted into decent and cleanly pail-closets^ under their own 9th
and 12th by-laws made under the Nuisances Brevention Act : but they have not executed the existing
law they are _ appointed to execute, but have neglected it. Then, although the houses have water laid
on, the camp just beyond has none, although (as I judge) the nearer huts are within the statutory
distance of the water-main in the street, and under the Metropolitan "Water Act, or - failing that by
management and in a more roundabout way, they could have caused steps to be taken long ago to provide
the camp, at one or two points at all events, with pure water ; but they have neglected this power too.
Lastly, as to the filthy stables and the garbage about the general area, their own municipal by-laws are
sufficient to cause both these to be altered— namely, their 35th by-law, made under the 153rd section of
the Municipalities Act ; but they have neglected this too. In short, the existence of these faults is due,
not to the Chinese, but to want of law in some part, and in greater part to neglecfr to execute existing
laws. "■ ■
Brom Alexandria I went into the city— to Eobertson's-lane, which turns off Goulburn -street at the
back of the south side of Groulbum-street, back of 71-79. A large enclosed yard is entered by the door
numbered
8 Dec, 1891.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OV EVIDENCE; 371
numbered 14 in the lane, which is not in connection with any residence. It is used ae a Chinese boarding- Mr, J. A.
nouse, by means of the wooden structures fixed round the walls within which I am going to describe. Th^Psofl'
ADout one-tourth of tins yard is roofed, floored, and enclosed more or less perfectly. It is used as a J~'
cabinet-maker s work-shop Then along the wall against the lane is first a floored part, open to the yard, " '""""
wmcn has racks m which the lodgers neatly stack their panniers, and any vegetables they have failed to
sell during the day s work-for they are all vegetable hawkers who lodge here, and they generally number
about tor ty-six. This part was very dirty, but not untidy, and there was smell of decayed vegetable
matter At another part of the wall was a large sort of room, also open on the yard side, which was used
as a kitchen. It was very dirty indeed, disorderly, and generally in an improper state. Next to this and
against the wall which separates this yard from the backs of the houses in Goulburn-street, were closets
and a urinal, and then the cabinet-maker's shed was arrived at again. The yard was open to the sky in
the centre, and paved with brick, but very irregularly graded ; it was wet in consequence, but clean. In
this open part ot the yard, and near the kitchen, was a yard-gully. It was of a bad pattern, and in direct
communication with the sewer. The closets were quite dark, and so constructed as to be indescribable—
1 mean as regards woodwork, &c. ; in this respect they were altogether improper— wet, filthy, and
ottensive. Ihe pans were of a very old and discarded pattern. They were supplied with an insufficient
stream ot water by a plug-valve m a barrel, which was supplied from the main by a ball-cock. There
were two such closets, and alongside them was a urinal in the floor of which there was a little gully with a
water-tap over it. _ All these fittings are improperly placed, of improper construction or form, and impro-
perly connected with the sewers. By a dirty and old companion-stair a kind of wooden balcony was
reached extending over the racks mentioned above, looking inwards to the yard, and having round it
against the wall six or seven small rooms or hutches ; in each of these sleep the lodgers in groups of four
to seven. All of them were manifestly overcrowded, insufficiently ventilated and lighted, and improperly
placed in being over the racks below, with their load of decaying vegetable matter, &c. I am of opinion
that these premises are fit for nothing but destruction, and that while they are used as at present that
they are likely to injure the people who live there, constitute a standing menace to the public health of
the city, and are, besides, dangerous as regards risk of fire.
From Eobertson-lane, on the south side of Goulburn- street, I went to the two-storey houses
numbers 50 and 52 on the north side of that street. These houses are used as cobk-shops. I believe
that is their principal use. They are not old houses. The area of land on which they are built is
extremely small, and I am of opinion that plans' for two houses of the arrangement they have should not
have been passed, and would not have been passed in any city where there was a Building Act. I
cannot intelligibly describe them in words. A rough 'ground-plan would be an instructive and
important thing. However, I believe the Commission have visited them. The ground-floor where
the cook-shop business is conducted was very dirty ; the very small eating-rooms at the back
of the shop were squalid and ill-lighted ; and another very little room behind that contained a
water-tap', and seemed to be sometimes used as a scullery — a brick or two knocked out of the
outside wall at the floor level, permitting wastes to flow out to the yard. These buildings have
very small yards — perhaps 12 feet by 14 ; they are bricked, and contain a water-closet, and the usual
yard gully. These closets and gullies are out of repair in some respects, and in others are altogether
improper, being, for one thing, in direct communication with the sewer, and for another, insufficiently
supplied with water. All this is bad enough ; but the peculiar feature of this case is that these
small yards containing closets, and drains in direct connection with the sewer, have been covered over and
closed in by the tenants, so as to make an additional room, and that the room thus made is used as the-'
cook-shop kitchen. At the time of my visit provisions of several sorts were awaiting the fire, and all
the operations of a busy kitchen were in active progress, in immediate proximity to the closets and
the faulty gullies. Now, here, for the third time, I cannot proceed without pointing out that although
this misuse of premises is due to Chinese tenants, yet it has been made possible only by imperfection of
the existing law touching buildings.
From Goulburn-street I was conducted to Queen-street, which turns out of street, and runs
northerly parallel with Lower George-street. It begins as a moderately wide road, with houses on both
sides ; but it then contracts, a row of four cottages on each side leaving no room for a roadway between
them ; the space resembles a court, and looks like a cul-de-sac, the only exit from it being by a narrow
passage. These eight cottages are inhabited by Chinese hawkers. They are of brick, and of two storeys;
but they have only two rooms, one above the other ; and then they have very small yards, about 12 feet
by 10. At first the visitor think s that they are three-roomed cottages, without any yard at all ; for here,
as in Goulburn-street, the yard has been enclosed, so as to make a third room of it. None of these
cottages have any closet at all. The four on the eastern side have no communication with a sewer nor any
gully ; all slop-water has to be carried to an ill-constructed gully-trap which stands in the middle of the
court-like space ; those on the western side are still less fortunate. I was able to enter only one of them,
but I was informed all four were alike. In this there was in the room made out of the yard the mouth of
a 4-inch glazed pipe ; it was laid slanting into the ground ; there was an improvised sink around it ; its
mouth protruded into the room, and was delivering a steady current of foul-air to the whole house, and
it was armed with a slight grating, roughly made of iron-wire, against the passage of rats. None of these
houses have water laid on ; there is a single tap over a yard-gully in the passage which leads to George-
street, to which the inhabitants resort. These houses are, in my opinion, fit for destruction and for
nothing else. I need make no further remark at present concerning their existence here, in the heart of
the city, except to point out, once more, that the faults are not due to the Chinese, who are compelled by
poverty' to live where they can, and for whom our own neglect leaves such death-traps open. I have no
good idea of the number of tenements as faulty which a systematic inspection of the city and of Sydney
would reveal in occupation of Europeans, but I know there are many.
From Queen-street I went to 166, Lower George-street. This is a rather new building of two
storeys, used as a boarding-house, and, as I understood, chiefly by old Chinese past work. The in-
ternal condition as to cleanliness was not satisfactory. The upper floor was divided into cubicles which
were not of uniform size ; some were about 5 ft. by 7 ft. ; some only about 6 by 5 ft., and all 10
feet high ; ventilation and lighting were both seriously defective. In the small yard was a water-closet,
which was out of repair, filthv, offensive, and dangerously connected with the sewer. But the special
feature about these premises was a cellar, entirely below the natural surface, approached by a flight of
wooden
372 cnrxESE uambleno commission — minutes of evidence.
Mr. J. A. wooden steps, and having no' openings either for light or ventilation, except the door of entrance.
Thompson, j{ound three of the walls a partition had been erected, which ran up to the roof, and which stood 4 or
M 5 ft. from the walls ; and the space thus formed was divided into hutches about 6 ft. wide, in which were
8lT^~189i wooden shelves arranged in the usual way for sleeping. It is not necessary to do more than say that
eC-' ' this arrangement is entirely improper and dangerous to the health of the ledgers, and, in consequence, of
the neighbourhood.
Now in these three last cases the faults are due to much the same causes as in the Alexandria case,
which I have already dealt with. They are due in part to want of suitable laws, but in a much greater
part to the neglect of the Corporation to execute existing laws. As to laws which are wanting : I have
already said that there is no law to prevent any person from building on any improper plan, site, or
foundation, he may choose to use ; and as to regions outside the city that is quite true. But within
the city there is an Improvement Act. I need not say much about it ; because it has been formally
reported by the Improvement Board time after time to be an utterly useless statute, entirely ineffective
for its intendod purposes, and has been strongly condemned by a Judge of the Supreme Court. I need
only point out that in Robertson's-lane there is an abominable and dangerous wooden structure
maintained in spite of that Act; that in spite of it the back-yards in G-oulburn-street have been so
enclosed that a kitchen is formed which includes a water-closet and a drain-gully, and that in spite of it a
similar course has been taken with the cottages in Queen-street. I can say no more about this ; the facts
have been perfectly well known for years, and yet have not been remedied. Then there is another point
of great importance to meet which there is no law. I did not mention it in connection^ with Alexandria,
because in that case each man's hutch is a separate tenement ; but in Bobertson's premises, and in Lower
G-eorge-street numbers of men occupy rooms which are part of one premises, and consequently those
premises are brought under the description of a common lodging-house. There is dangerous over-
crowding in both places — an unhealthy want of light and air-space; but all these are matters which
cannot be interfered with at present for want of a law to regulate houses let in lodgings. _ I must guard
once more against misapprehension : there is overcrowding here, but it is not due to choice of the poor
Chinese who live there. Thus, as bad, or, perhaps, a worse case was examined by the Board of Health
in an ordinary boarding-house in the city last May ; no Chinese lived there, but poor white people, and
they lived under entirely improper conditions. 1 have recently examined boarding.-house3 for whites at
Broken Hill, quite as bad and as dangerous to health. How can poor people compel landlords to build
faithfully, or principal tenants to apportion the living space rather with regard to health of lodgers than
their own pockets ? The fault lies in the want of a law to regulate lodging-houses, such as is in use in every
large city of Europe and many large cities of A meriea— such a law as was Originally suggested in the Public
Health Bill of 1SS5, or such as was introduced in the Legislative Assembly, but not passed, a year or two
ago. But after giving full weight to this defined want of powers (to be exercised either by Municipal
Councils or otherwise) there still remains the fact that the most urgent and the most dangerous and
simplest of the faults I have mentioned about the three city" premises last described, might very easily
have been corrected under the powers which the corporation do enjoy. Thus Bobertson's premises were,
at my visit, in such a state as regards the kitchen and as regards the basket-store, as would, in my opinion,
justify the issue of a summons for filthy premises if the landlord failed to cleanse them after receiving
notice to do so. Then, under section 193 of the Sydney Corporation Act the whole of these premises
and the other two premises could have been compulsorily whitewashed without the least trouble ; but
they have never been whitewashed, or, to judge by appearances, have not been whitewashed since they
. were first erected. Again, as to defective, filthy, and offensive privies, the corporation have powers, under
parts 9 and 10, to alter and regulate them almost in any way they choose to require ; nevertheless the
privies on Bobertson's premises they are as they stand, distinctly filthy and dangerous ; the privy in Lower
G-eorge-street is also offensive and dangerous ; and as for the cottages in Queen-street, which never had
any privy at all, it has been within the power of the council to compel the connection of those cottages
with a sewer, under part 10. Existing powers, — powers provided by the Sydney Corporation Act, have
thus been neglected — have not been executed by them ; but there is another point : Eor a long time past
they need not have relied upon that Act, but might have thrown the whole trouble and responsibility
upon the "Water and Sewerage Board, who would have caused suitable privies — cleanly, properly placed,
properly furnished with water, and safely connected with the sewers — to be put in, either by the owner
or at his expense. As far as this goes all that was necessary was to write a letter, but even this easy
remedy has been also neglected. Lastly, just one point has been omitted : it may be thought that these
premises are owned by Chinese landlords. I believe the Alexandria camp is so owned ; but in two, at all
events, of the other three cases, I have been informed that the landlords are well-known European citizens.
13540. President.] Referring to Betreat-street, Alexandria, you say that the state of things to be found
there is not an exceptional case. Are we to understand from that^remark that European habitations
presenting equally bad sanitary conditions, can be found in that locality, or elsewhere in the city and
suburbs ? I was then referring to the overcrowded condition of premises in Lower George-street, rather
than the nuisances on the premises.
13541. As a matter of fact, having seen those huts in Betreat-street, do you know of any other place in
New South "Wales, where Europeans are living, or even Chinese, so bad as they are ? I do not know of
any other place where the same numbers are gathered together under such conditions.
13542. Do you know of any place where Europeans are living in similar huts with similar surroundings ?
I have seen many huts in all parts of the country, which, as separate hutches or tenements were no better.
13543. I am speaking more particularly of the rag-pickers, living in the midst of all the filth they collect ?
Well, I think if you were to go to any marine store dealer you would see something very much like it,
only the marine store dealer generally lives in town, and in a superior sort of house to those in question.
The trade ought to be regulated by law for that very reason.
13544. "With regard to that place in Kobertson's-lane, you have stated in clear terms that you consider it is
only fit for destruction, and that the well-being of the surrounding district demands that it should be so
dealt with ? I think so.
13545. At that place, No. 166, George-street, did you see any men in those hutches then ? Yes ; there
were men in two of them ; the others were not occupied at that time. It was about 1 o'clock on Saturday
afternoon.
13546. Did you notice the state of one man who appeared to be somewhat-blind ? No, I did not notice
that. There was an old man, rather thin and pale ; and, besides, he had his little lamp between me and
himself, and I did not take it that I was examining the inhabitants particularly. I did not take him out
and look at him. 13547.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 378
13547. Sleeping in a place of that kind must necessarily be highly injurious to health, I should think? Mr. J. A.
There can be no doubt. Th^nEfon'
] 3548. Tou believe there is strong necessity for a Common Lodging-house Act, to cover all kinds of *JnJ^->,
houses where people go to sleep or board? Tes ; but I should prefer to refer to them as " houses let in a Dec., 1891.
lodgings." The common lodging-houses in America and England are of the class sometimes called
" Two-penny Eopes." We want something more than that in this country.
13549. The Act we require would be one to cover all classes of houses of that description? Tes; and
" houses let in lodgings" would cover any description of lodging-house.
13550. Tou think there is no doubt that a measure of that kind would be beneficial to the health of the
city, and also advantageous from a moral standpoint ? Tes ; I have long thought that. In' my opinion
it is a very important matter indeed both for Sydney and many country towns.
13551. Do you regard the overcrowding among the Chinese as a national characteristic consequent upon
the overcrowded state of the country ? I should be sorry to think they are all like it. But these are poor
people.
13552. Now, I want to submit to you a suggestion that has been made to me : whether the Chinese living
under these conditions are not healthier than they would bo if they had very much cleaner surroundings ?
"Well, no ; I cannot admit that any human being would.
13553. On the principle that a pig would not thrive in a drawing-room, you know. However, that has
been seriously suggested to me, that the Chinese would, and actually do, "thrive better under the con-
ditions we are speaking of than under much cleaner and happier circumstances, from a European point of
view ? "We are all alike in point of general constitution, and what would hurt us would hurt them. And
as for the pig, we all know that even he gets on much better when he is kept clean.
13554. Mr. Haiothorne.] - Have you visited the Chinese quarters in San Erancisco ? No ; I have not been
there.
13555. Have you visited any of the Chinese camps or colonies in the country districts of New South
"Wales, such as Narrandera, Hay, Emmaville, and Tiogha ? I have not been to Emmaville and Tingha ;
but when I have been in country towns I have visited some of the residences of the Chinese.
13556. Have you visited the Chinese quarters at Narrandera ? I have been in two or three of the houses.
13557. How would the places you have visited in the country compare with those you visited in Alexandria
and Lower G-eorge-street ? I think Alexandria is an exceptional place ; I do not know any other place
just like it — that is, built upon that plan.
13558. Do you think they are built on a superior plan in Narrandera and Hay? I have merely passed
through the town of Hay, and had no opportunity of visiting the Chinese quarters there.
13559. Is that of Narrandera the only Chinese settlement you have visited in the interior of this Colony ?
No ; I have been in many others.
13560. "Will you mention those you have visited ? I have seen Chinese residents in Albury, for instance,
though I have never made a systematic inspection of them.
13561. As a matter of fact, until you were requested last week to make an inspection of the Chinese
premises in Alexandria and the city, you were never called upon to make an inspection of any Chinese
quarters ? That is the case ; but in the course of my visits to different parts of the country I always
keep my eyes open to anything of the kind.
13562. How do you think the poorer class of Chinese compare with Europeans of the same walk in life ?
I think they compare favourably with Europeans in the same rank of life.
135Q3. Mr. Abigail."] In reference to this place in Goulburn-street, where you found the closet in the
kitchen, that, I apprehend, would be calculated to impair the character of the food ? I should think so.
The imperfect fittings of the closet and gully, to speak of nothing else, must deliver impure air.
13564. In your report you make a statement with respect to Eobertson's-lane, which leads me to the
conclusion that you think the Corporation officers have neglected their duty to some extent ; — is that so ?
It is.
13565. I may state that the description of the closets by you confirms my own observations of those
places ; — then if an inspector under the Corporation of the City of Sydney has stated that in connection
with these places the sanitary arrangements are perfect, that would not be correct ? It would not.
13566. And the same remark applies to those places in Queen-street, I suppose ? Tes.
13567. In most of the Chinese houses down in Lower George-street which we visited we were informed
that they took in lodgers, and in nearly all of them we found these wooden partitions dividing the rooms ;—
in framing a Lodging-house Bill do you not think it 'would be well to prescribe how they should be
erected, and what amount of space should be allowed to each of the occupants of a room ? Tes ; that
would be one of the things either to be stated in the Act itself, or to be regulated by by-laws under the Act.
13568. Tou consider it a matter well worthy of serious consideration ? Certainly.
13569. Mr. Haiothorne.] I suppose any complaint as to the insanitary condition of the city would not be
sent on to you, Dr. Thompson — they would rather be forwarded to the City Health Officer ? They are made
to the Board o£ Health very often.
13570. But the council have appointed a City Health Officer, whose duty it is, I understand, to attend to
the health of the city ? I do not know what his duties are. I know they are obliged to provide one under
their Act of Incorporation.
13571. I suppose the fact of your not having made any inspection of these places previously resolves
itself into this, that you consider that the duty of the Municipal Health Officer, or the officers of the
Municipal Council of Sydney? Tes. I belong to an Administrative or Central Department, whose
function is to make inquiries that cannot well be made by any council, and to advise as to proposed
measures of sanitary reform, but not itself to execute them. I go about a great deal, and, keeping my
eyes open, I cannot help noticing these things. But it is not my business to draw attention to them,
except in the special case3 I have referred to, for the Board is an Administrative and not an Executive
body in respect of these matters.
13572. Then you had really made no inspection of the Chinese quarters in Lower George-street ? I had
made no formal inspection.
13573. Mr. Abigail.] Has the Board of Health power to direct the attention of the Improvement Board
or the council to any buildings that may appear to be in a dangerous or insanitary condition ? The
Central Board does, at its own risk, draw the attention of municipal authorities to anything of the
kind
374 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. J. A. kind it may become aware of. It has happened, though but seldom, that councils hare sent replies not
Thompson, exaet]y courteous when they have been communicated with touching such matters. Tou see, the Board
M has no locus standi in that direction ; the public appeal to it, and it does for them what it can.
8 C"w""'l8q] 13571. I understood you to say that you visited Albury.with a view to reporting upon a certain portion of
e°'' ' that district ? Only under " The Dairies Supervision Act." In that case the Board has a supervising
authority — to see that the local council do their work properly.
1357o. Supposing an individual sent a letter to the Board directing attention to what he might think a
public danger, would the Board give attention to that ? Invariably, even if the complaint is trifling ; in
fact the Board is very unwilling to let anything pass by without attention. For example, a complaint
reached us that a cabstand in a certain locality was not as clean as it ought to be kept. Now, it is not
exactly my business to inspect cabstands, but under the circumstances I made a point of looking at it. I
did not see anything in the complaint at that time. But if there had been necessity we should have
communicated with the proper authorities on the subject.
13370. In your report you speak of a Judge of the Supreme Court having condemned the " City of Sydney
Improvement Act," and pointed out the strong necessity of an amended or new law? Tes ; he did so.
13577. The defect iu that Act arises from a division of powers conferred under it, does it not? Thatwas
the point the Judge took.
13578. I suppose you have no doubt that if the Improvement Board had full power to act in such matters,
there are a number of places in Sydney which could be removed with benefit to the general health,
comfort, and safety of the inhabitants ? Tes ; a great many, but not in the city alone.
13579. Tou think it is necessary to apply the same law outside the city ? Quite as necessary.
13580. That power is, in a measure, exercised by the authorities now — for instance, we have a Building
Act? Yes.
13581. That applies, in a measure, to the City of Sydney, but we do not find the municipalities make
application to bring themselves under its provisions ? There you point out a serious working difficulty.
For my own part — but this is only a personal opinion — I think the local councils should manage their own
affairs as far as possible ; but, the fact is, that they very often fail for some reason or another, and I do
not think any measure of the kind would be properly executed, as a general rule, unless there were some
outside independent body with power, in cases of extreme necessity, to step in and say, " If you do not do
this, we shall do it for you, and charge you with the cost."
13582. The body you have in your mind to perform this duty would be a body similar to the Board of
Health, with large powers to step in and compel the local governing bodies to do what is right and just to
the people, in the event of such local bodies persistently neglecting to carry out the powers vested in them
to that end ? Exactly. It is only in virtue of such power that the " Dairies Supervision Act," in reality,
has been effectually worked.
13583. Mr. McEillop.~\ I suppose, in the course of your travels, doctor, you have come across a large
number of houses of similar condition in many respects to those you have described in your report? Tes,
a very great many. You see, I go into houses for different purposes — in connection with small pox or
typhoid fever, perhaps, or else in consequence of special complaint by tenants. With regard to these
matters that I have been speaking of, I have no power to do anything but look and record the facts.
13584. You say there is a very large number of these houses ? Yes.
135S5. Have you noticed any cases of leprosy in any of these houses, amongst the Chinese ? I have never
found them myself, but they have been reported. We have at Little Bay twelve or thirteen Chinese
lepers and five natives of the Colony.
13586. Have any cases of syphilis amongst the Chinese come under your notice? No ; they would not
come under my notice.
13587. Syphilis is contagious, is it not ? Yes.
13588. We have had evidence here that a very large number of Europeans congregate in these Chinese
gambling-dens, in Lower George-street and elsewhere. Is it not possible that Europeans coming in contact
with Chinamen, suffering from this disease, in such places, might catch it, and become diseased themselves ?
Xo. It is inoculable. I have known one man who knocked down another who was syphilitic, and cut
his knuckles against the man's teeth, to get syphilis in his hand. But it is not contagious by casual
contact.
13589. Mr. Hawthorne.] Suppose a Chinese vegetable hawker had syphilis, do you think hfe would be
likely to communicate the disease, and thus cause it to spread by handing the vegetables to the various
customers ? I do not think so. I do not see the use of speculating about it.
13590. Mr. McKillop.~\ But I suppose it is quite possible for them to contract some disease or the other
in these gambling-houses ? Certainly, because they are overcrowded and dirty places.
13591. In the course of your inspection of these places you have reported on, was your attention directed
to the pools where they wash their vegetables ? Yes, I have seen them, and am well aware of the way in
which they carry on their business. That is one of the reasons why I say their vegetables should not be
eaten until they are boiled.
13592. Do you not think it would be right for the councils to lay the water on, so that they could wash
their vegetables in cleau water instead of doing as they do in many cases at present ? That would be a
matter for the Water and Sewerage Board. I could not express an opinion upon that off,-hand. I believe
they must be within a certain distance of the main before they can be compelled to connect. Of course,
it would be very much better to have a full flow of fresh water.
13593. Mr. Quong Tart?\ Do you think the Chinese, regarding personal cleanliness, compare favourably
with the Europeans ? I do.
13594. Have you noticed that when the Chinese workmen knock off at night they spunge themselves all
over, and before they go to bed, wash their body and feet ? I have not noticed that, but I have been
told that it is the custom.
13595. If the Chinese market gardeners use one part of urine to four parts of water for their vegetables,
do you think that would be any harm ? No ; there is no objection to that at all. Regarded, as a way of
growing vegetables, it is a very good way. But I do not want to commit myself 'on this occasion to any
general statement with regard to these Chinese gardens. They are very good ; but I do not say that they
are all that they ought to be. As I have said, .they are conducted on much the same principle as a sewage
farm, and that wants very careful management.
13596.
CHINESE GAMBMNO COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 375
13596. Supposing that in one of these Chinese gardener's houses a person was suffering from typhoid or Mr. J. A.
some contagious disease, and the human waste in such a case were converted into liquid form and used to Thompson,
manure the garden, do you not think there would be danger to health in that? There is always risk of _5ri_
that sort of thing in connection with sewage farms necessarily ; and that is why I advise precautions s'^T^,
Deing taken in eating vegetables grown in that way. I never have eateu any salads iu Australia.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. G-eorge M'Eae called and examined :—
lllll' PJ?sidentl J™ are CitJ Architect and Building Surveyor to the City Council of Sydney ? Yes. Mr
to Jiaye y°u' ]n .the cof se of your duties, made any inspection of the Chinese tenements in this G. M'Rae.
city r1 Xes; several times I have had a look round them with my inspectors. ^-^j^-^
135.99. In what localities ? I visited G-oulburn-street some months ago. I forget the exact date. 8 Dec, 1891.
7™°?' SlVe y°U Vlslted L°wer George-street ? I have not been round there for some time.
13601. When were you last round there ? About four months ago.
13602. Have you noticed whether it is the custom of the Chinese to alter the internal arrangements of
the houses they take on lease ? Tes ; that is very often the case.
13603. They put up wooden partitions and subdivide the rooms ? Tes.
13604. That, of course, increases the inflammability of the building ? Tes.
13605. Do you know whether the insurance companies have ever objected to such alterations ? I do not
know that they have ; and I may say that under the City Improvement Act we have no power to deal
with them.
13606. I shall come to that presently ; this subdivision, which in many cases is done with a view to
increasing the accommodation, very much reduces the cubical contents of the sleeping apartments, does it
not ? Tes.
13607. Now, before they make that internal alteration, have they not to give you notice ? No ; not for
internal alterations. The City Improvement Act, by which we are to be guided in such matters, is a verv
defective measure.
13608. If you have the Act there, kindly refer to the section which covers the class of cases I am referring
to ? It would come under the 21th section ; but we have very little power under that section, as I have
already said.
"Witness read section 24 of the Act : —
Before any building on old or new foundations, or on foundations partly new and partly old, or any wall or fence
fronting the building-line of any street shall be begun to be built, and also before any addition or alteration shall be made
to any building, and also before any other matter or thing shall be commenced which by this Act is placed under the
supervision of the surveyor, the person causing such building or wall or fence to be built, or such work to be executed,
shall give to the said surveyor three clear days' notice in writing in the form or to the effect set forth in Schedule H,
No. 1, and shall forward with such notice a general plan of such building or work for the approval of the said surveyor,
who shall return the said plan within seven days, with his decision endorsed thereon ; and if such person as aforesaid shall
neglect to give such notice, or shall begin or allow any person to begin to build or to do any of the works, matters, or
things aforesaid without giving such notice or furnishing such plan, or before the expiration of the said period of three
days, he shall for every such default be liable to a penalty not less than £5 and not exceeding £20 ; and if any
such person having duly begun any such building or other work, matter, or thing as aforesaid, shall for any period exceeding
one month suspend the progress thereof and again go on with the same, then two clear days before any such recommence-
ment or resumption of work, he shall give notice in writing to the said surveyor in the form or to the effect set forth in
Schedule H, No. 2, of this Act. And if any such person shall neglect to give such notice, he shall for every such offence be
liable to a penalty of not less than £2 and not more than £20. And any such building or other work, matter, or thing so
begun to be built, pulled down, rebuilt, cut into, or altered as aforesaid, or proceeded with after suspension thereof as afore-
said without such notices and plan being given respectively as aforesaid, shall be liable to be declared and abated as a
common nuisance under the provisions hereinafter in that behalf contained. Provided always that if, by reason of any
emergency any act, matter, or thing hereby placed under the supervision of the said surveyor be required to be done imme-
diately or before such notice as aforesaid respectively can be given, then any such person as aforesaid may do such act,
matter, or thing so requisite, but such person shall within twenty-four hours of commencing such work give to the said
surveyor notice thereof in writing, 'or in default be liable in all respects as if no such emergency had arisen.
13609. President^] It appears to me that this section of the Act is very comprehensive. It very clearly
directs that before any addition or alteration shall be made to any building, and also before any other
matter or thing shall be commenced, which by this Act is placed under the supervision of the City
Surveyor, &c, three clear days' notice in writing shall be given to the said surveyor in the form set forth
in the Schedule ; — do you not think that internal alteration I have referred to in the houses occupied by
the Chinese is an alteration under the meaning of this clause f It ought to be within the meaning of the
clause, certainly.
13610. Tou think it is ? Tes.
13611. Have you ever had reason to alter that opinion by reason of the City Solicitor advising you other-
wise ? I have consulted with the City Solicitor on that matter, but that was some time ago.
13612. In your opinion, the alteration which the Chinese make in the houses they take from the European,
landlords is an alteration within the meaning of the 24th clause of the City Improvement Act ; — that is
your opinion ? Tes.
13613. Then have you ever had reason to alter that opinion in consequence of advice given to you by the
City Solicitor ? No.
13614. Have you had reason to alter that opinion by the Court having decided otherwise in any case
taken to test the matter ? No.
13615. As a matter of fact, I suppose you never objected to these alterations being made, because they
never gave you notice, and you were really not cognisant of their being made ? No ; but I should say
that even if' they gave notice, I, as City Surveyor, would have no power to object, because the Act gives
me no discretionary power in the matter — it simply says that outside walls shall not be constructed of
certain materials ; it gives no power to determine with regard to inside walls. I may say, however, that
these matters have been carefully considered in preparing the new Act, and full powers given for the
supervision of buildings, to determine the size of rooms, and so forth.
13616. Tou are- clear that you have no power under the old Act to do anything, except in regard to the
exterior walls of a building ? Tes ; I do not think we have any further power than that under the 24th
section.
18617.' Have you taken the City Solicitor's advice ? No. 13618.
376 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr- 1361s. Then it is a mere assumption of your own ? 1 ha,ve had no legal advice. But if you turn to
G. M'Bac ,)ages ji) and 63 you will see how the powers of the officers are limited by the Schedules A, B, and C.
a 'r^-'^iRq l It says : —
8 Dec, 1891. - ^ cxtl!nmi wau 0r external enclosure to buildings of every rate or class, and of every addition or enlargement
hereafter to be made, to any buildings now erected, or Hereafter to be erected, shall be erected -with reference to height and
thickness, subject to the provisions of this Act and of Schedules A, B, and C.
And then it goes on to give particulars. *
13619. Then your contention or belief is that the section and Schedule relative to the materials and con-
struction of outside walls govern your powers altogether ? Tes.
13620. It seems to me that it governs your power only so far as exterior walls are concerned ; you hold
a different opinion, and want to make that section which deals with the construction of external walls
limit your power as to internal walls ? What I say is that the Schedule limits my power and authority
altogether to external walls. •
13621. Does not that section, No. 24, clearly provide that notice shall be given to you before any building
or any alteration is begun in any building ? Tes. .
13622. Was your attention never directed by any person to the fact that these internal alterations were
going on in the Chinese houses ? I had a general knowledge that such things were done.
13623. Did it strike you that it would be desirable to limit the powers' of the Chinese to subdivide their
premises ? 'Yes. ,
13624. And I understood you to say that arrangements have been made in the new Act to give the officers
of the Council ample powers in that direction ? Tes.
13625. With regard to the enclosing of yards, which you have probably noticed the Chinese are much
addicted to, in order to get an additional room, which is used for cooking or storing purposes, do you
consider they were entitled to make that alteration or addition without permission ? Certainly not.
13626. Can you tell me why you have not directed the attention of the Mayor, for the time being, to that
custom of the Chinese ?- Well, it is very difficult to get at these people doing anything of that kind, and,
unless we can catch them red-handed, we have no power to act. Besides, very often the work has been
done in such a way that we could not find out what was going on.
13627. Is not the owner or the tenant presumably liable for all the work done on the premises ? I do
not think so, in this instance.
13628. The clause says before any buildings, or old or new foundations, or any wall or fence, &c, or any
additions or alterations shall be made, the person causing such to be built shall give due notice ? Tes ;
I know it says that, but we have to get at the person.
13629. Should it not be easy to trace the persons who cause these things to be done ? On the contrary,
it is most difficult in some cases. It is difficult to find out when they do it, for instance. If you ask
them when was this or that done they will tell you it has been done a long time.
13630. They do not do the work all at one time— that is, finish it from the start without a break ? No ;
they do it gradually sometimes. I may say the Act is defective in many respects.
13631. Are you of opinion that such enclosures as I have referred to increase the inflammability of the
buildings ? " Tes ; it is calculated to produce insanitary conditions and cause disease.
13632. Have the insurance companies never communicated with you officially in the matter ? No ; they
have never approached me officially on the subject.
13633. Is there any provision in the new measure to compel people to have a certain yard area, and.
to observe certain regulations with respect to new buildings ? Tes. It also provides for a certain cubic
area for sleeping places.
13634. Will that apply to old buildings too? Tes.
13635. The new Act will regulate the amount of cubic feet of space that a'man may sleep in ? Tes, the
object being to prevent the tremendous overcrowding. I have been much impressed with the necessity
of such a provision when going through some of these places. In the new Act ample provision is made
for dealing with all such matters under the by-laws.
13636. As City Architect and Building Surveyor, do your duties include the inspection of properties with
a view to their condemnation ? Tes.
13637. Do you know Eobertson's-lane, off Goulburn-street ? Tes.
13638. Do you know a large building there that used to be Robertson's Coach Factory, and which is now
occupied by a number of Chinese ? I have been there ; I think about four or five months ago.
13639. What caused you to visit it? I really forget.
13640. Do you visit it alone ? No ; I went with Inspector M'Nulty.
13641. What impression did you gain by your visit to that place ? That it was a very indifferent class of
building, but the place seemed to be kept pretty well.
13642. It was clean and sweet ? Tes.
12643. Did you look at the water-closet accommodation ? I do not remember that I did.
13644. That would be more in Mr. Seymour's department? Tes. My inspections are made with the
view of seeing if there is anything ruinous and dangerous about the buildings I visit.
13645. Tou did not find the place in question in a sufficiently dilapidated state to demand condemnation?
No. In the case of being ruinous and dangerous it would be referred to the Improvement Board.
13646. Was it such a building as you might have brought under tho notice of the Mayor as being unfit
for human habitation ? It did not strike me as being so at the time, considered as a Chinese place.
13647. Did you regard it as a dwelling-place, or a workshop ? As a dwelling-place.
13648. Have you any idea how many Chinese were living there ? No ; I did not count the beds.
13649. And you made no report to the Mayor on the subject ? No.
13650. Have you visited any other Chinese places that you would like to speak about now ? No. We
have cleared out a number of them during the last few years, but I cannot think of any at present.
13651. Do you remember a place at the corner of Brown-bear-lane and Lower Greorge-street, which I
condemned ? Tes. I visited that place some months ago, and after the notice was served I saw them
clear out with the exception of one old man, and the next day, when I went round, the whole place was
clear.
13652. Tou are clearly of opinion that the practice of Chinese householders closing in their yards in
the way I have referred to is illegal ? Tes.
13653. And could that be done away with at once ? Tes. 13654.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 377
13654. Is it the custom of Chinese to store timber in their houses ? Tes. Mr.
13655. Is there anything in the Act to enable you to prevent that ? No. G> M'Rae.
13656. Mr. Abigail] Eeferring to that building in Robertson's-lane, do'you not think that is a class of oC^O,
building that should be condemned ? I have not visited it lately. When I did visit it, it was apparently 8 Dec>> 1891>
to^iTW undeslraDle character perhaps, but it was not either ruinous or dangerous.
13bo7. JNow, with regard to these additions that the Chinese are in the habit of making to their houses,
you say that it is difficult to find them in the course of construction. But suppose a man does such a
thing, -and you find he has acted illegally, have you not power to compel him to pull the additions or
alterations down ? The only course is to take him before a magistrate; but if we cannot prove that he
did it we cannot take proceedings against him at all If my inspector goes round and sees something of
the kind, and makes inquiry, he will probably be told, " Oh ! that has been up for years " ; and we cannot
?S«o mu n°* been Up f ?r years' Z ma^ BSkJ tnat 1 have onlJ one inspector for the whole of the city.
13658 lnere are two places m Groulburn-street, which the Commission visited lately, where the yard
space has been made into a kitchen, and the cooking goes on immediatelv next to the water-closet, a state
°l ™nf s. w}lch a. medl°al expert has pronounced dangerous to health. Do you not think that a matter
of this kind requires attention ? Undoubtedly ; but under this Act we have no power. As I have said,
it is very detective. I do not know how we could deal with a case like that you have mentioned.
13659. With regard to these partitions, you say that you have no power to deal with them under the
Improvement Act, although the Mayor evidently believes, or is of opinion that you have. I may tell
you that these partitions are put up in the houses of the Chinese, in many instances, to prevent the police
interfering with the illegal practices carried on there. Have you ever consulted- the city solicitor on the
subject? No. J J
13660. Will you do so ? Tes.
13661. Mr. Hawthorne.] Supposing I have a boarding-house in the city, and I make up my mind to
divide one of the rooms into four, have you not power to prevent me doing so ? No.
13662. Ton are perfectly helpless in the matter ? Yes ; we have no power. But I may say that ample
provision has been made for all these things in the new Act ; as well as for dealing with the construction
of buildings generally in such a way as to ensure— especially in the case of houses built in flats— ample
provision for the health, comfort, and safety of the inhabitants.
13663. Mr. Quong Tart.] Eegarding these places where alterations and additions are made to the pre-
mises, you say that you have only one inspector, and that is not sufficient ? No ; we really require three
or four ; and each one should be made responsible for a particular district, and also for any alterations
that are going on to buildings. Sometimes this work is done at night.
[The witness withdrew.]
WEDNESDAY, 9 DECEMBER, 1891.
ft£0£itt: —
The Mayor of Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbesident.
EAMSBY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONQ TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Mr. Henry C. L. Anderson called and examined : —
13664. Mr. Abigail.] You are Director of Agriculture for the Colony, I believe ? Yes.
13665. The duties of the Commission have led them to the consideration of the production of vegetables jyir. h. C. L.
in this Colony by the Chinese. They have visited and inspected a number of Chinese gardens in the Anderson,
suburbs, and from what they have seen at those places they have, in the absence of scientific authority, s~*~*—~~\
been led to believe that what goes on there may be injurious to the health of the people who consume the 9 J)eo> 1891-
vegetables so produced. They have therefore decided to seek the evidence of yourself, as a man versed
in that branch of science. We have seen that the Chinese use all the filth and offal, the human excreta
and human urine that they can get hold of for the purpose of dousing their vegetables with them ; and
the question that has exercised our minds is whether the vegetables grown in that way would be injurious
to the health of the consumers. So we have asked you to be good enough to attend our meeting this
morning for the purpose of giving us whatever information you could upon the subject. You have been
at the Sydney University, I believe ? Yes.
13666. And you have gone through all the branches of scientific study in connection with agriculture,
have you not? Yes. I might, perhaps, make a short statement before you begin to examine me upon
the question. It is one that has been seriously complicated by the fact that men have taken it up who
do not really understand it from a scientific stand-point ; and in that way statements utterly opposed to
scientific discovery have been made to my knowledge, both in the press and in lectures. Many men will
argue that the dung of a human being is horribly offensive and dangerous to health, and yet the same men
will use the dung of another animal in their gardens, and see nothing at all objectionable in it. Asa matter
of fact, chemistry makes no distinction between elements in a manure, such as nitrogen or potash, or
phosphoric acid, whether they are in the form of cow dung or, to speak quite plainly, man's dung. They are
all the same to a chemist. I saw it stated in a newspaper a little while ago, for example, that
the Chinese saturate their vegetables with ammonia, and that that caused typhoid fever. Now, ammonia
can no more cause typhoid fever than it can cause any other disease that is the result of a germ ; but if,
on the other hand, vegetables were doused with matter containing that germ, of course it is within the
bounds of possibility that typhoid fever might be spread in that way.^ The danger in that case would be
with those quick-growing vegetables, salads, and so on, that are speedily produced and eaten without being
cooked. Any filth that attaches to them is injurious to health, but they could not possibly produce directly a
specific disease like typhoid fever, unless the filth with which they had been doused contained the germ of
typhoid fever. The best gardeners are the men who use every possible source of manure, human or
animal or vegetable. They mix them all together, and take care to keep down offensive smells by mixing
plenty of earth and other absorbents with them ; in other words, they make a good compost heap, and
when- that is thoroughly rotted they spread it on the soil. Chemists can see no difference between the
272— 3 B* manurial
378 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. H. C. L. manurial constituents, whether they be in the form of offal, decayed vegetables, a dead dog, or the
Anderson, evacuations of any animal. Some of them act more quickly than others, and are consequently more
o/t>W*~Trqi vftlUilDle to tne gardener.
' 13G67. I understand then that human manure contains exactly the same properties as the manure of any
other animal ? Exactly the same chemical constituents, only in a different form and in different proportions.
1366S. And human manure, if used in growing vegetables, cannot be any more injurious than any other
kind of manure ? No; certainly not, unless it has in it some specific germ coming from the man pro-
ducingthe manure and adhering to the vegetable at the time that it is consumed. If the ftecal matter of"a man
suffering from typhoid fever were used in the form of liquid manure and applied to the plant instead of to
the soil, I think it is quite possible that the germs might linger on a rapidly-growing vegetable like a
lettuce, and in that way the disease might be conveyed to the consumer of the lettuce, but as a matter of
fact, science has never, as far as I am aware, fully investigated the question. There would be less danger
of germs in the case of cabbages and similar vegetables, because they would be destroyed when the
vegetables were cooked.
13669. Nor in the case of any other vegetable that is cooked before being eaten, I suppose ? No ; not in
case of any cooked vegetable.
13670. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Have you had a look at any of the Chinese gardens in Waterloo or Alexandria ?
Tes ; I have seen them several times.
13671. Tou know what they use for manure ? I have seen them use liquid manure, and also solid manure.
13672. Have you also seen them using their own excreta? No ; I have not seen that.
13673. "Were you aware that they did use it as manure ? Tes ; I have understood that.
13674. Mr. Abigail.'] You said just now that typhoid fever might possibly be conveyed through a
typhoid germ lingering about a lettuce that had been doused with the manure of a man Buffering from
typhoid fever ; — did you mean that the germ might possibly be absorbed with the manure by the lettuce
itself, and in that way enter into the organic life of the vegetable spreading through its tissues, and thus
becoming a source of danger to health, or merely that if thrown over a lettuce in the form of manure,
and through carelessness not washed away before the vegetable was consumed, the typhoid germ might in
that way be conveyed upon its fatal errand ? I do not think the question has ever been investigated
whether a fever germ can be absorbed into the tissues of a plant, and thus be conveyed to the human
being. I do not think that it is at all likely ; but it is certainly a matter well worthy of investigation by
bacteriologists.
13675. Have you ever examined a cabbage grown under the conditions we have been describing. A
cabbage grown by a Chinaman at Forbes was brought up to Parliament House on one occasion, and
handed round as an illustration of the injurious effects of the kind of manure used in its production;
the vegetable was undoubtedly very seriously diseased ; we split it down the centre and right up the
stalk nearly as far as the leaves ; there was manure almost in its earthy form ; — what could bring that
about ; would it not be dangerous to the health of the consumer ? Do you mean that the manure was
inside the stalk of a cabbage ?
13676. The forcing had been so rapid that the manure had gone right up the stalk of the cabbage almost .
into the leaves ? In what form was the manure visible ?
13677. When the stalk of the cabbage was split it was seen to be brown right up to within an eighth of
an inch of the outside of it. It was a large cabbage, and was shown as the result of the forcing to which
it had been subjected, the stench being enough to knock you down. I saw that myself, and it was that
that gave a great deal of force to my impression that Chinese-grown vegetables were injurious to health.
Even after knowing what you have told us, that the boiling of a cabbage even in that state would destroy
any germs, one cannot get rid of the idea that it would be a very horrible thing to eat such a vegetable ?
I have never seen anything at all similar to what you have described.
13678. It was grown by a Chinaman in the district of Forbes ? It is a very remarkable thing, because
the manure is put into the ground, and is not used by the plant at all in the form in which we put it
there. It must be decomposed and must be in solution before it is absorbed. It is impossible for the
exceedingly minute root-hairs of plants to absorb any solid matter. It is said, for example, that plants
absorb ammonia, but there is no proof whatever that plants can do so. The bacteria of the soil turn it
into nitric acid before the plants can utilise it.
13679. So that if a plant was put into liquid manure, whether human or animal, and great heat was
applied to it, that would not affect what you have said ? Under those conditions the plant would die.
The chemical action of the manure would kill all the fibres of the plant. Tou can easily kill a plant by
giving it too much manure. It produces too much chemical heat. Tou might make your soil very strong
indeed with manure and not kill a plant, but you could not grow it in pure manure. There must be some
soil there, and there must be a low form of life, what are called bacteria, there to decompose the manure.
If you killed the bacteria by excessive fermentation you would not grow anything.
13680. And you do not think that under all the conditions of Chinese gardening it would be possible to
bring about injurious effects any more than might be the case by European gardening ? The only thing
I can imagine is that the germs of disease might be conveyed, as I have said, by lingering on the leaves of
vegetables that are eaten raw. I do not think that any European gardener would water a vegetable of
that kind with liquid manure over the leaves. It would go against his sentiment, and I must say that I
think it is very largely a question of sentiment We all put liquid manure about the roots of plants, but
not over the plants themselves. The only danger I can see is t>y your depositing anything on the leaves
of a vegetable, and its not being washed away by rain. For example, there is a little moth that is very
injurious to cabbages or potatoes, and in order to poison its food-supply we water the leaves of the plants
with a solution of London purple — a compound of arsenic, which is of course very poisonous. Tou might
say that that was dangerous, but as a matter of fact, thousands of experiments have been tried in America,
where they have watered vines, cabbages, and all sorts of fruits and vegetables with it, and it is perfectly
clear that the first shower of rain washes it off. Tou may spray plants with this solution of arsenic until,
with the aid of a magnifying-glass, you can see a light film all over them, and yet there is no danger to
the health of the consumers, provided the spraying is discontinued a fortnight before the vegetables or
fruit are to be used.
13681. Not even without the shower of rain coming to wash it off ? No ; it would do no harm whatever.
13682. Well, there is an impression that the Chinese adopt a different method in growing vegetables from
that
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. 379
that adopted by Europeans, and there is an idea that it is not a matter of sentiment but an actual source Mr. H. C. L.
or injury to consumers. Let us go a little farther into the question. Vegetables are taken out by the Anderson.
unmese hawkers, and those that are unsold are often placed in ill- ventilated bed-rooms, and taken round for „ -T^ '
sale on the following day Is that likely to be a means of injury to the consumer ? Vegetables allowed 9 Dec" 1891'
to lade m that way lose their value for purposes of food. Anything that is used as a fresh food loses its
IZr Mi? t(V\?reat e*tent ^ bemg kept. In time, of course, decomposition would set in, but whether
theywouldabsorbdisease through being kept in ill-ventilated rooms, where the germs of disease were present,
i«b°«« wlT i, am. I, \° Say; -1* WOuld re1uire a specialist to answer a question of that kind.
13o83. Well, when vegetables lose their properties in that way, are they not likely to affect the health of
the consumer injuriously ■> Only in a negative way, I think ; they would be less nourishing. I think,
however, that it is possible that a succulent vegetable might take up the germs of disease in that way.
Milk does it,. and 1 think it is possible that a lettuce might ; but it is a matter that has never been fully
investigated m New South Wales.
13684. Tou have said that liquid manure thrown over vegetables may be injurious to health, but do not
^uropean gardeners force vegetables in the same way ? They use animal manure in a liquid form, I know.
1 have seen them often ; but I think that sentiment would restrain them from using human excrement in
that way Of course all gardeners use liquid manure in raising plants in a hot-house. Many people in
the suburbs have earth- closets, and are in the habit of burying the matter in their vegetable gardens.
lhey have no sentimental objection to that ; but, mark you, how they treat it. They dry that excrement
with ashes, and any person might use it without offence, just as though it were a piece of dry cow-dung,
i q^qk tt* 1S n0t altered m lts essential elements, nor deteriorated in its manurial value.
13685. Have you ever heard of Europeans using urine on vegetables ? Yes ; I have seen it done often.
It is a very valuable manure, it decomposes so rapidly.
13686. Mr. Quong Tart.] Tou say that you have seen the Chinese use human manure for cabbage— at what
distance from the plant do they use it ? I have seen them spread liquid manure over the tops of the
cabbages ; but the solid manure is always put into the rows or holes before the vegetable is planted.
13687. Have you ever noticed what strength they use it? Oh, the stuff that I saw them putting on was verv
much diluted.
13688. I understand that they mix- a large quantity of water with it, so that it will not burn the plants ?
Tes, that is so.
13689. Do you not think that the discoloration in the stalk of the cabbage referred to by Mr. Abigail
might have been the result of some injury to .the vegetable ? It is very hard to say what it was.
13690. What I want to elicit is this : Whether the plant could possibly absorb manure, or whether it was
suffering from a disease like cancer ? I cannot express an opinion. It is quite impossible that a plant
could absorb any solid manure in its natural state. I have seen vegetables grown in fine well-rotted
dung, with little earth, and they have been perfectly sweet and wholesome. We have excellent scientists
in Australia who could determine whether succulent vegetables can absorb germs of disease.
13691. Well, you have seen dark matter in potatoes very often — that is the result of a disease which has
nothing to do with the kind of manure used, and might not the same apply to cabbages, whether grown
by Chinese or Europeans ? Yes, such a disease may be due to a fungus. But, as I understand Mr.
Abigail, there was an objectionable odour with that cabbage.
13692. Mr. Abigail.'] Oh, yes ; it was most objectionable ? Of course that cabbage may have been
decomposing, and there is nothing more odious than a decomposing cabbage.
13693. No, it had all the appearance of a very healthy cabbage ? 1 never heard of such a thing.
13694. Mr. Haiothorne.~] How do you account for the Chinese in a few years driving almost every
European in the county of Cumberland out of the cultivation of vegetables ? There are a good many
reasons for it. They work harder, they utilise manure more scrupulously, and they have always got
situations for their gardens in which they can use water. That is the great secret. You see them watering
morning, noon, and night.
13695. And you think that the real secret of their driving Europeans out of the gardening industry is
due entirely to their superior industry ? Yes; I have watched them repeatedly in Canterbury, and can
only speak of them in terms of the highest praise. They are most industrious and highly-skilled
gardeners.
13696. Is it that they get their knowledge from books, or is it inheritive ? They are gardeners by tradi-
tion. A Chinaman is a gardener from his youth up, and probably his father was before him.
13697. You think that it is all a matter of birth with the Chinese — that the Chinese who garden to such
perfection have simply inherited what their forefathers knew ? Tes ; they never read anything that we
publish. They pay £9 a ton for blood manure from the abattoirs, which our gardeners will not buy at £6
a ton.
13698. Then as a matter of fact the Chinese are larger customers for the manure manufactured at Glebe
Island than the Europeans are ? Yes ; they are the only people who properly appreciate it.
13699. Then the fault is not with the Chinese at all but with the Europeans for not being so patient and
industrious and skilful as the Chinese ? I think so, and also because the Europeans do not use sufficient
water. If you pay a, man 7s. a day for taking round water, vegetable-growing will never pay, but if you
can buy a windmill and irrigate in an economical way then the Europeans need not fear the Chinese.
13700. But, in the absence of machinery, Europeans will not take the trouble to resort to manual labour
like the Chinese do ? Very seldom,! think. It would hardly pay.
13701. Have you visited any of the Chinese gardens except those at Canterbury ? Yes; I have visited
those at Botany and Waterloo.
13702. Did you go there for the purpose of seeing how they raised their vegetables, or merely on a friendly
visit ? Entirely to see how they utilised manure.
13703. And you think that the whole of their apparently scientific knowledge in using manure and dealing
with ground that was previously of very little value is the result of traditions handed down from genera-
tion to generation, rather than from any knowledge of literary productions on agriculture written in
Chinese ? I do not know what books on agriculture they have got, but I have noticed from my reading
that they utilise manure here in the same way that they do in China. I understand that in China they
utilise the whole of the human manure, and here they do the same. I understand that in China they have
little wayside retiring places, where the wayfarer can go and ease himself, and from which the manure is
removed direct on to the ground for use in the compost heap, or in a liquid form. . 13704.
380 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. H. C. L. 13704. So that your statement would justify the various municipalities in using the excrement that they
Anderson. now carry. outside the Heads and throw into the ocean ? I am quite sure that we are wasting a great
' * — "^ source of national wealth in throwing the night-soil into the sea. I have mado a calculation that the
9 Dec.,1891. mallure made by an ordinary family is worth 26s. a 3 ear for the purposes of gardening.
13705. .So that by wasting the night-soil as we do, the loss to the city and suburbs can be reckoned at 26s.
for every household within the metropolitan area ? Well, I do not know what it would cost to utilise the
night-soil, on a commercial basis, but the manure from a single household is worth 26s. a ton to the
householder who can use it on his own garden.
13706. In other words, what an ordinary family throws away in the course of a year is worth 26s. ? Yes.
I may just say one thing to illustrate what I have said. I have a quarter of an acre of ground round my
house, and for seven years I have not spent a penny in manure. I have simply used the night-soil from
the house, and my trees, shrubs, and other plants grow as luxuriantly as I could wish, and simply because
I scrupulously use the night-soil, the slops, ashes, and the bones from the house. I reckon that they are
worth £4< or £5 a year to me. Of course I have used manure on my orchard, but never one penny-
worth on my own garden.
13707. There is evidently no by-law in your municipality against the utilisation of night-soil on your own
ground as there is in some places ? No.
1370S. Then there is no offensive smell arising from it ? No.
13709. Mr. McKillop.'] Tou treat the night-soil in some way, I suppose ? I only mix dried ashes with
it, and there is no offensive smell whatever with it; excessive fermentation is checked, and offensive gases
are absorbed by the dry earth.
13710. In the course of your experience in connection with the Agricultural Department have you found
that the Chinese are going in for the cultivation of fruit to anything like the extent that they have been
cultivating vegetables ? No ; I have never heard anything about that.
13711. Have you found the Chinese to be at all successful in the cultivation of fruit in this country ? I
do not know a single Chinese fruit-grower. I know Chinese who manage fruit gardens for other people,
hut none who own gardens of their own.
13712. Has not Dr. On Lee got some orchards ? Not that I know of.
13713. How is it that the Chinese devote so much more time to vegetable-growing than to fruit or flower
growing ? Well, principally, I suppose, because vegetable-growing produces a return in a very few
weeks, whilst fruit-growing takes a long time to become profitable.
13711. Suppose a man devoted 5 acres to fruit trees, and another 5 acres to vegetables, which, at the end
of five years.would be the most valuable ? Oh, at the end of five years you would have got very little return
from a fruit orchard. Of course it is customary to grow a few vegetables between the rows of fruit-trees,
and to make money by the sale of them before the orchard itself is in bearing, but I think that without
any such subsidiary aids a poor man could not keep himself on an orchard till the end of five years.
137L5. So you think that the reason why the Chinese have not been able to compete with the Europeans
iu fruit-growing is that they are not able to wait long enough for the returns ? Yes, and I think that
they have not as much skill in growing fruit. Our fruits, and the conditions under which they are grown,
differ from what they are in China.
13716. Then you think that if the Chinese were to enter into competition with the Europeans in the
growing of fruit they would be placed at a disadvantage ? Yes ; because, as I say, they have not grown
a good many of our fruits in China, and they would have to begin to learn, and the average Chinaman
cannot learn like one of our students. He has to acquire his knowledge from experience, and cannot
study it in the light of science.
13717. So I conclude, from what you have said, that you think there is no danger to health from the
manner in which the Chinese cultivate their vegetables ? I cannot say that there is no danger. I can
pledge my word that from a chemical point of view there is no danger, hut from a physiological stand-
point I cannot possibly say that there is none.
13718. You have never investigated the effect of vegetables grown in that way upon the bodies of the
persons who eat them ? No.
13719. That would be more a question for medical men ? Yes, and even specialists among medical men.
13720. Would you not think there was a danger in salads (I understand you to say that you would)
grown in that way, especially if the people who used them were not particularly careful in the way in
which they prepared them ? If there is any danger at all that is where it would he.
1372! . Mr. McKillop.'] Is it a fact that there is more ammonia in human dung than in that of the brute
creation ? Everything depends upon the food of the animal making the dung.
13722. Compare human dung with horse dung ? Horse dung contains a great deal more nitrogen (which
will become ammonia by fermentation) than cow dung, and I should think that it contains as much as
average human dung and urine mixed together. Human excrement in a solid state does not contain much
ammonia, but if you were to mix human urine, which does contain a large percentage with it, I suppose
you would find that the compound contained more ammonia than cow dung, and about as much as horse
dung.
13723. Have you ever boiled a European grown cabbage in one pan and a Chinese-grown cabbage in
another, and then compared the difference in the scent of the two waters ? No, I have not, and I should
hardly think that there would be any difference in the scent.
13724. There is a difference — a great difference, however — and I should like you to make the comparison
for an experiment. The question was asked by Mr. Hawthorne, whether Europeans use as much human
dung as the Chinese do ; you said that they would not, and that suggests to my mind that it must be the
large amount of human dung used by the Chinese that brings about the strong smell that I have just
alluded to in the water in which Chinese grown cabbages are boiled? Why would you think so ?
13725. Well, I can only state the fact that there is that difference in the odour of the two waters, and in the
absence of any other explanation conclude that that must be the true cause of the bad smell of that in
which the Chinese grown cabbage is boiled ? If you take human dung and decompose it into its chemical
elements you will find that these elements are the same in varying proportions as the elements composing any
other kind of dung. Take a dead animal for example : That would decompose into gaseous matters quite as
offensive as anything from a human body : but if that is buried in the soil the offensive constituents are
absorbed by the soil, and not by the plant. The really offensive vapours and gases emanating from a dead body
are sulphuretted hydrogen, a compound of sulphur and hydrogen, which you never find combined in a plant.
13726.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 381
13726. "Why is it that a cabbage mates a smell so much more offensive than other vegetables ? Because Mr- H- °- !<■
of the amount of sulphur there is in it. Any complete manure that contains a good percentage of sulphur Anderson-
grows cabbages well, and the cabbages when rotting form compounds of sulphur with carbon or hydrogen— oC^.
both of which smell very vile. a ■Uec'' i8al*
13727. Guano has a large amount of ammonia in it, has it not ? The best guano is very rich indeed iu
nitrogen in some form, and ammonia is one form of nitrogen that is reckoned valuable ; but nitrogen may
exist in a form that is not so valuable. Fresh human urine contains no ammonia, and therefore it is absurd
for people to say that they taste ammonia in the water of cabbages that have been watered with fresh human
urine.
13728. Manure containing dead cats or dogs is very valuable manure is it not— more valuable than the
excrement of either man or beast ? Oh, yes, very valuable ; our manure is only waste matter ejected by
the body ; but a dead animal contains the whole of the elements of nutrition of which the body is com-
posed. Then, of course, in the same way the value of manure depends, as I have already said, entirely
upon the food of the animal producing it. A ton of manure from an animal fed on turnips is worth
4s. 6d. ; a ton of manure from .an animal fed on linseed cake is worth more than £5.
13729. Is it necessary to use human manure in gardening ? No, it is not necessary ; but it is economical
to do so. You can grow vegetables or anything else without it.
13730. Then, it is on the score of economy, I suppose, that it is used ? -Yes.
13731. Bone-dust is a very valuable manure is it not ? Yes.
13732. I suppose it is not so largely used owing to the fact that it is so expensive ? Yes, and also owing
to the fact that it is not a complete manure. It only contains ammonia and phosphate of lime, whereas
dung is a complete manure, that is, it contains a little of everything needed to make a complete fertiliser.
13733. G-uano ? That is a complete manure — it contains a little of everything, but especially nitrogen in
some form.
13734. But to use it in a large vegetable garden would be too expensive, I suppose ? Yes, I think so. It
is very expensive, because there are so many charges to pay upon it.
13735. In sewage forms all the excrement is utilised is it not ? Yes.
13736. Does it undergo any process before utilisation ? No ; it is simply absorbed into the sandy soil,
and decomposed just as the manure used in Chinese gardens is. Prom a chemical point of view the
vegetables grown upon our sewage farm at Botany are quite as dangerous to health as those from
the Chinese gardens. The only thing is, that we do not spread it over the tops of the vegetables, and if
you can prevent the Chinese doing that you will take away nearly all the danger and all the sentimental
objection to their method of gardening. When a European wants to give his vegetables any liquid manure
he takes the rose off his watering-can and pours it over the roots, so that it could not possibly matter
when you cut the vegetables for use.
13737. With regard to the loss accruing from human excrement being taken outside the Heads you say
that it is very valuable manure. It is utilised in some places, is it not? Yes; it is to some extent in
Sydney too. It is made into what is called poudrette, but the cost of manufacturing it is so great that
it does not pay to use it generally. The water is all evaporated, and in the form of poudrette the manure
is a perfectly solid substance.
13738. But would it be advisable for the Government to build establishments for the purpose of treating
all this night-soil? Well, from a sanitary point of view it would certainly pay, but I do not think you
could hope to make money out of the sale of the manure when manufactured. All that I have heard
about the poudrette manufactories of London and Paris is, that it costs about as much to manufacture
the manure as the manure is worth. In Sydney they ask £5 a ton for poudrette, but our experience is
that it is not worth more than 35s. It contains much accidental foreign matter — bits of broken glass,
coke, sand, clay, &c, and so on, that is not valuable for the purpose of manure.
13739. Mr. Quong Tart.'] What are the kind of cabbages over which the Chinese pour liquid manure ?
Do you mean are they large or small ones ?
13740. "Well, I have understood that they only pour liquid manure over their young cabbages, and I
wanted to know how old the cabbages were before they ceased to treat them in that way ? I have seen
them pouring liquid manure over cabbages that have been about half full-grown. They do not continue
the practice up to the time the cabbages are ready for cutting, I believe, and that is why, I think, that
there is a minimum of danger in the praetice.
13741. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Are you aware that the Chinese gardeners use the refuse from the boiling-down
establishments, and also from the wool-wash as manure ? Yes ; and very valuable manure it is.
13742. That was never taken advantage of during the whole course of this Colony's agricultural history,
I think, was it ? No, I do not believe that it was to any extent. We have just been examining the scrapings
from a tannery, and have found that it is worth 35s. a ton as a manure, yet, because of the ignorance that
obtains as to its true value, you can get any quantity of it for Is. a ton. A man offered me 100 tons of it
the other day at the nominal price of Is. a ton. A man who has one of the best vegetable gardens in the
Colony, at St. Mary's, uses it, and it was he who asked us our opinion of it. It is very offensive, but it
makes splendid manure, especially when properly treated in the compost heap.
13743. Europeans have never used it, have they ? Not here, to any great extent.
13744. Then had it not been for the investigation of the matter by your department nobody would have
known the value of it ? It has been neglected here, but, as a matter of fact, its value has been well
known in other countries for a very long time. ,.•,., ™ •
13745 Mr Quonq Tart.] Mr. McKillop just referred to the smell of the water in which Chinese-grown
cabbages were boiled, and compared it to the water drained from European-grown cabbages ; but, as a
matter of fact are there not not many different kinds of cabbages ? I can assure Mr. McKillop that the
higher the form of animal life the greater the decomposition m death There is nothing in the world
more offensive in decay than a beautiful well-nourished human being. A well-fed animal is full of nitrogen,
and when it decomposes will smell horribly, but a starved or ill-fed animal m decomposition would not
form so much foul gas. So a well-nourished vegetable would suffer more decomposition, and therefore
create more offensive gases and vapours.
THURSDAY,
382 CHINESE GAMBLINQ COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
THURSDAY, 10 DECEMBER, 1891.
$rmnt:—
The Mayor of Sydney (Me. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Yice-Peesident.
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Hannah called and examined : —
Hannah 13746. Mr. Abigail ] The Commission has summoned you to attend here for the purpose of obtaining
certain information from you ; and I may tell you now that we do not propose to publish your name in
•~-'N— ^. full, so you need have no apprehension on that score, nor need you have any hesitation about speaking
10 Deo., 1891. free]v in reply to questions which will be put to you. It is as well, also, that you should thoroughly
understand that the questions you will be asked are not prompted by any desire to gratify idle curiosity
on our part, but to enable us to properly perform a public duty that we have been charged with by the
Government. Now, are you a married woman ? Tes.
13747. You are separated from your husband — is he a European?. Yes. He was never much use to me.
13748. How long have you been separated from him ? I was separated four years last November.
13749. "What was the cause of the separation — was it your fault or his ? It was his fault. He was
always going to gaol, and was no use to me whatever.
13750. He never supported you ? No. The Chinese have been the best to me since I left my mother's
home.
13751. When you separated from your husband did you go to live with the Chinese ? Yes.
13752. And have you been living with one Chinaman ever since ? Yes. Mr. Quong Tart was in my
house — it is next to the public-house.
13753. What is the general treatment you have received from the Chinaman you are living with — is he
kind and considerate ? There could not be a better man to me in the world. He supplies me with any.
thing I want. Any of the police down there can give you his character.
13754. Does he drink? No ; he never drinks or smokes.
13755. He never quarrels with or strikes you ? No.
13756. It has been represented to us that the Chinese entrap young and virtuous girls to their places,
and, getting them under the influence of opium, seduce them ? It is simply ridiculous.
13757. You do not think a statement of that kind has any truth in it ? No. I do not believe opium
could make anybody like that.
13758. But about the first part of my question — do you think there is any truth in the statement, or have
you seen anything to warrant you in believing that the Chinese do entrap young girls to their places for
improper purposes ? I do not^believe it. Of course I have had only one to deal with. And I have not
much time for running about and talking to people, as I have enough to do in my home. All the neigh-
bours about will tell you that. My man does not like me to go out much, or go to the hotel, or anything
like that.
13759. Does your present husband have any of his countrymen come to visit him ? No ; no other China-
men come there.
13760. Do you smoke opium? I have smoked it. But I was very sick and had to knock it off. Now
and then I may have a couple of pipes unbeknown to him. He does not like opium-smoking, and never
uses it.
13761. You are not a regular smoker ? No. You can see that by my appearance.
13762. How did you first become an opium-smoker, seeing that the man you are living with never uses
it ? I got into company with those who smoke. I have had a few pipes now and then with some of his
friends. I will own that I have had the habit, but I have knocked it off for about five months now.
13763. Is it not a difficult matter to break yourself of the habit ? I do not know. I think it is easy
enough to knock it off. Some persons might be too lazy to try.
13764. If you have determination sufficient you can give up anything ? Certainly you can — I know I
can.
13765. What is the particular fascination about the opium that induces you to use it even now that you
have given it up, as you say ? Well, sometimes when I go and see a friend I may have a pipe.
13766. Do they ask you the same as a person whom you go to visit would ask you to have a cup of tea ?
Yes ; you see I have been with this man a long time, and understand their language, and as I live with
him I have to follow the Chinese fashion as well.
13767. You are quite satisfied with your treatment in every respect ? Yes ; I find the man I am living
with is far kinder to me than my European husband wasT If 1 were divorced to-morrow I would get
married to him if I could.
13768. And the only thing that prevents your being married to this man is your husband being alive ?
Yes.
13769. Is your husband now living with somebody else ? No ; he is in trouble (gaol). I was very young
when I got married. I had no sense, and did not know what he was.
13770. Your married life has not been a very happy one? No, it has not.
13771. Mr. McXillop.'] Was your husband in a respectable position when you married him ? He is a
dentist by trade, but he will not keep to it.
13772. Mr. Abigail] I suppose you have a pretty general knowledge of a number of these girls who are
married to Chinamen ? I know a few of them ; but I make it a rule not to mix up with them.
13773. Prom your knowledge of them, should you say that the treatment they receive is similar to what
you receive from the man you are living with ? Oh, yes ; some of them.
13774. Have you ever heard of Chinamen being cruel or unkind to their women ? No. If so it is the
girls' own fault.
13775. Their general tendency is to be kind to women ? Yes ; that is my experience. Of course I have
only had dealings with one.
13776. How did you come to attach yourself to the man you are at present living with ? When I left
my husband I went up country for a while, and when 1 came back again I met him, and have been with
him ever since. 13777
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 383
13777. What business does he follow ? When he came down from the country he had a garden at Hannah
Cooma, and he has shares in that garden yet.
13778. You are not stinted in money for any of your requirements ? No ; I can have everything I want
for the house, and so on. 10 Dec, 1891.
13779. Where did you first meet him ? In Wexford-street.
13780. Were you living there ? No. I was living in Belmore-street, but I used to pass up Wexford-
1w81' T°Uwiet him in PassinS UP and dowli the street, and an acquaintance sprang up between you in
that way When you left your husband what means of living had you ? I went home to my people for
a while after he got into trouble.
13782. Mr McKillop.] How long have you been with the man you are at present living with ? I have
been with him three years on the 25th of this month.
13783. Were you any time on the streets ? Not much time, and not to say exactly on the streets. I
had no occasion to do that.
13784. Have you any children ? I had one.
13785. Used your husband to ill-treat you ? Certainly he did, when he was out of gaol.
13786. He beat you ? Yes.
13787. Did you have any children by him ? Yes ; I had one, but it is dead.
13788. Mr. Abigail.'] Have you ever heard of Chinamen decoying virtuous young girls into their places
for the purpose of betraying them ? No ; I have not. They are too frightened to do anything like
that. If they think a girl is too young they would not allow her on the premises.
13789. You think thatiu the majority, if not all of the cases, where girls are found with Chinamen, they
have been betrayed before the Chinese got acquaintance with them ? Yes ; they are generally on the
streets before they go with the Chinese. It is very seldom you see a respectable girl go with the Chinese
—not to say a virtuous girl. It is ridiculous talking like that.
13790. Mr. McKillop.] You do not think they have been bribed by jewellery or presents of money, and
enticed in that way to the Chinese quarters ? I do not think so— I never heard of a case of that kind.
13791. Mr. Quong Tart.] Your house is about the third door from the hotel in Wexford-street, is it not?
Yes.
13792. I have seen your house ; it is very clean and creditable to you. You say the man you married
went to gaol — how long ago is that ? He was sentenced to seven years' imprisonment, and he had done
four years last November.
13793. How old were you when you were first married ? I was not quite 16 years of age.
13794. What age was your husband ? He was about 19.
13795. And you say you have never known any respectable young girls to be decoyed from their homes
by the Chinese for immoral purposes ? No ; I never did.
13796. You were not decoyed ? No ; I went of my own free will. The Chinese have been better to me
than my own husband. Even if my own people were opposed to it I would go against them, and stop
with them.
13797. Do your own people know you are living with this man ? Some of them do, and some do not.
13798. Mr. Hawthorne.] Are you a native of Sydney ? Yes.
13799. How long is it since you took up with the Chinese in the first instance ? Three years.
13800. That was twelve months after your husband became imprisoned ? Yes. I thought it was better to
have one man than to be knocking about the streets with everybody.
13801. You would have been compelled to take to the streets ? What else was I to do ? — his people would
not look after me.
13802. You were left penniless when your husband became imprisoned, and you had to choose between
prostitution and living with Chinamen ? Yes.
13803. You found that this man you are living with'treated you on the whole in a kindly manner ? Yes.
13804. Supposing your husband were released to-morrow, and he made offers to take you back and
provide for you, would you go with him ? No ; I would not chance him any more. When I first married
him he used to stop out till 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning, so you may judge he was up to no good.
Everything I had was put in the pawn, and if I said anything I was beaten for saying it.
13805. While he was out of gaol did he make any provision for you at all? No. I never knew him to
work for money.
13806. Are there many other girls living as you are about Wexford-street ? I do not know of any more
in Wexford-street ; there may be up the lane. But I have no associations with these women.
13807. Is it your opinion, or within your experience, that women who take up with Chinese, also indulge
in prostitution ? I cannot speak for them. I am never out with them. I know what I do myself. Some
of the girls are very deep ; they will not let you know their business.
13808. You, at any rate, are faithful to the man you are living with? I can solemnly swear that. Indeed
I have not much chance of being otherwise. If I was to do anything wrong there are plenty of his
Chinese cousins who would carry it to him.
13809. The members of your husband's clan would consider it their duty to inform him of it ? Yes.
13810. Mr. Quong Tart.] Do any of the Chinese informers live in Wexford-street ? I do not know.
13811. I mean the Chinamen who inform on their countrymen for sly-grog selling, and anything like
that — give information to the police ; — did you never hear your husband talk of them ? No ; he never
' tells me anything like that. He does not gamble.
13812. Do you know Robert Lee Kum and Long Pen ? I have heard of Long Pen. He is married to
a European.
1381. Do you know much about these informers ? No.
13814. Do you remember a row that occurred, just behind your place, sometime ago, in which a man was
struck with an iron bar ? I do remember having heard of it — that's all.
13815. Have you lived in Wexford-street ever since you have been with your husband — the man you are
living with ? No ; I lived in Surry Hills for some time.
[The witness withdrew.]
Adelaide
384 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Adelaide called and examined : —
Adelaide 13S1G. Mr. Abigail.'] Are you a married woman ? No.
13M7. What is your age ? Twenty-sis years
s~-^*^~~ 13818. Are you living with a Chinaman!' Yes ; in Exeter-place.
lODec, 1891. 1;jslg_ \\hzt kind of treatment do you receive from the man you ar3 living with ? I could not wish for
better treatment. _
13820. Tou have a comfortable home, and are supplied with money for all your requirements? Xes.
13821. Has he ever ill-treated you in any way whatever ? He has" not I have been living with the one
man this seven years. I have lived with him since I came from Adelaide, where I went after I left "Way
Kee's son, Ah Bow. His father wanted him to marry a Chinese woman, and sent him home for that
purpose.
13822. "Were you first betrayed by a Chinese or a European ? By a European.
13823. It has 'been stated that it is the custom of the Chinese to entrap young girls into their place for
the purpose of betraying them ;— what have you to say to that ? I do not believe it. They run away
with a foolish idea who say that. I was young when I went amongst them, and I know I was not
betrayed by them.
13824. The girls that associate with the Chinese, I suppose, as a matter of fact have, generally speaking,
fallen before" they could go to them? Certainly they are. I have never seen any young girls enticed to
stop with a Chinaman unless they wanted to do so ; and I think I have been enough amongst them to
know.
13825. Mr. McKillop.] Do you think virtuous girls have been brought by other girls of bad character to
the Chinese quarters ? Certainly ; I admit that.
13826. Well, have you ever heard of respectable girls being put under the influence of opium, when they
have gone to such places, for improper purposes ? No.
13827. Have you known them to be asked to drink spirits ? No ; I never have.
13828. Tou are living with one Chinaman ? Tes.
13829. Are you faithful to him ? Yes.
13830. Do you smoke opium ? No ; I did so at one time, but have not for four years. It did not agree
with me. The day you came into my house and saw me making it I was making it for Tong Way.
13831. Was he not capable of preparing it for himself ? No, he cannot make it.
13832. Have you attained particular facility in making it, so that you can make it exceptionally nice ? I
do not know, I'm sure.
13833. Where did you learn to smoke opium ? In Queen-street, Lower George-street, with Way Kee's
son, Ah Bow.
13834. Then you went to Adelaide, and continued smoking there ? Yes ; I was very ill for nine months
out of the twelve when I was there. I tried not to smoke then ; but the doctor said if I smoked a few
pipes it would be better for me, so I continued ; but when I returned to Sydney I knocked it off.
13835. If you smoke opium continuously does it not destroy the vitality and energy, and make you feel
altogether unfit for any ordinary duties ? It does to a certain extent.
13836. Does smoking opium render you unconscious, so that you would be absolutely at the mercy of
. anybody who would be in the room with you ? No, it does not.
13837. Mr. McKillop.'] You have your senses about you the whole of the time ? Yes.
13S38. It has not the same effect as drink ? No.
13830. Mr.Quong Tart.] Regarding this charge against the Chinese of enticing young persons to their places
for improper purposes, can you say whether any of these have been virtuous, pure girls ? I cannot say, I
am sure How could I tell ? They might be respectable-looking girls, but I could not tell you whether
they were virtuous or not. At the same time I should say they were not virtuous.
13s40. Mr. McKillop^] Do you drink at all ? Yes, I drink occasionally.
13811. Which has the greater effect on you, drink or opium? Drink, certainly.
] 3842. After you were seduced did you go on the streets ? No ; I worked in several boot factories. I
worked for Mr. Abigail sis months, and for Mr. Jackson five years — I served my time there— and I worked
for Mr. Hunter twelve months, and Mr. M'Murtrie two years.
13^43. How did you pick up with Way Kee's son.? I was brought to him.
13841. ltnticed by other girls ? Yes. A girl I knew asked me to go down to Lower George-street with
her, and I went. Way Kee's son took a fancy to me, and I to him. I was to be married to him when he
deserted me ; his father did not care about English women, and, through his influence, he left for China.
He had to go, because, if he had not done so, his father would not have left him any money.
13815. Do you think he would take up with you again ? Certainly he would.
13810. And you would be willing to live with him ? Yes. He is not like a Chinaman.
13847. You would sooner have him than the man you have at present ? If I could get him, I would sooner
be with him ; but, as I cannot, I must do without.
13848. Does the man you are living with treat you well ? Yes ; I could not wish for better treatment.
I have been living in that house four years.
13849. Is the house kept by your husband or that elderly woman we saw there ? She only comes in to
work for me.
13850. Do a large number of Chinese frequent your place ? No ; the only one is that old man you saw
lying on the bed that day. He is a friend of my man's.
13851. And you do not allow any street-walkers to enter your house for immoral purposes ? No.
13852. Did you have any children by Way Kee's son? No.
13853. Mr. Quong Tart.] Way Kee disapproved of his son opium-smoking, did he not ? Yes.
13-551. And was angry with him for gambling? Yes, that particularly. It was the gambling he cried
out about most.
13S55. Way Kee is a. pretty wealthy man, is he not ? Yes, I think he is rich.
13856. Did he ever give you any money ? No.
13857. Did you ever apply to him ? No. When the boy went home to China he gave me £7 ; and the
watch and chain which he gave me (it cost £22), which I had pledged for £5, he took out of pawn.
13h5S.^ You say this man you have now keeps you fairly well ? Yes ; I get as much as £2 or £2 10s. a
week from him. He comes into town three times a week.
13859.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 385
13859. You say you were enticed by another young woman to the Chinese quarter ;— how was that ? This Adelaide
young jgirl I speak of was with him. I was at work in Hunter's at that time. Going home one day from
work tins girl says to me, " Come down to Lower George-street," and I went down with her. It was Ah r- * -
Bow she went to see ; but he took a fancy to me, and left her. 10 Dec., 1891.
13860. Mr Hawthorne.'] You have had a good deal of experience in different hoot factories about Sydney ;
you have also had a good deal of experience in connection with the Chinese quarters, and apparently you
have been on the streets for a short time ? Not running about the streets. In times gone by I was to a
certain extent in the direction of Lower George-street.
13861. Although not in a very public manner, you have nevertheless been a prostitute, have you not ? I
have done it certainly in a quiet way.
13862. Now, do you think there is much prostitution carried on in consequence or as a result of the inter-
mixing of the sexes m these factories ? I do not think there is.
13863. Was it in consequence of your mixing freely with the males in the different factories in which
you were engaged that caused your downfall in the first instance ? No.
13861. You never met with any special temptations there ? No. I kept company with a young man
while I was m Jackson's factory.
13865. Was the young man working in the factory too ? No.
13866. Can you call to mind an instance where a young girl in one of these factories has been seduced
through the intermixing of the sexes ? No. I do not believe that anything of the kind has happened in
any factory. We always had a forewoman or foreman over us.
13867. Have you met with any girls lately— within the last twelve months— who have been induced to
cohabit with the Chinese in your particular part of the city ? I know of several who do. There is that
young woman who was here before I came in.
13868. Is it the custom for the Chinese gardeners to keep women in the town ? Of course it is. They
could not take them on to the garden to live with other men.
13869. So that, although we remark an absence of women among the Chinese gardeners at Botany and
Alexandria, we are not to infer from that that these men do not have their women, but they keep them in
houses about the city or in some portion of the suburbs ? Yes. And there are plenty of women who
have English husbands and yet go with the Chinamen.
13870. Do you mean that you know of instances of women who have European husbands in the city-
lending themselves to the Chinese vegetable gardeners or hawkers who come into the city? Certainly 1
have. Only yesterday I saw one. Her husband gave her a black-eye, and she went away after that to a
Chinaman.
13871. To live with him permanently ? No, only for. a few hours, and she afterwards went back to her
home.
13872. And you say there are lots of cases occurring like that in the city ? Yes ; I know of several
instances.
13873. -Are there any houses about your district to which the Chinese resort regularly to cohabit with
women ? There are plenty such houses down Lower George-street, I know. There is place
in Cambridge-street. She is married to an Englishman, but lives with a Chinaman.
13871. Do you have Chinese come to visit your house ? No ; I live with the one man.
13875. With the exception of this man you are living with, the only Chinaman you have lived with was
Way Kee's son, and you have lived with him as his mistress ?
13876. Would Way Kee know you now if you went into his store ? I do not think he would know me
at all.
13877. Mr. McKillop.] Did the young man you kept company with in the first instance offer or promise
to marry you previous to seducing you ? Yes ; my mother did not approve of it. She said he was no
match for me.
13878. Mr. Hawthorne.] Is your mother alive ? Yes.
13879. Mr. McKillop.] Then the young man would have married you ? Yes ; it was not his fault.
13880. You have said that you have known of several instances of the wives of Europeans going to the
Chinese to have sexual intercourse ; — how do you know that they were married ? Of course I know.
13881. Do you personally know them ? I only know one girl.
13882. But you said you knew several ? So there are. Look at
13883. But you only know one case such as you have mentioned — personally? That's all.
13881. Mr.' Hawthorne.] I suppose the women you have spoken about as not being satisfied with being
married to Europeans, but cohabit also with the Chinese, are generally of the lower order, and much given
to drink ? I have not seen them.
13885. Would you take them to be respectable ? They are of the same class of people as myself.
13886. Mr. Abigail.] When these women you speak of go to the Chinese like that, is it not the result of
cruelty on the part of their husbands, generally speaking ? Yes.
[The witness withdrew.]
Ellen called and examined : —
13887. President.] Where do you live ? In Eoster-street ; but I am going up country in a few days. Ellen
13888. With whom have you been living? With a Chinaman. /^^^^s
13889. How long have you been living with him ? Close on five years. 10 Dec, 1891.
13890. With the one Chinaman ? Yes.
13891. Is he an opium-smoker? You cannot call him an opium-smoker. He may have a pipe now and
then.
13892. Do you smoke ? I do.
13893. Constantly? Yes.
13894 When did you first commence to smoke opium ? About three years ago I should say.
13895! How came you to become familiar with the Chinese ? I was brought to them by another young
woman.
13896. Had you been on the town before ? Yes.
13897. I suppose you were seduced by a European? Yes. 13898.
'272— 3 C
886 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Ellen 13S98. How long were you on the town before you went with the Chinese ? About two years.
13899. A nd have you been constantly with the Chinese since then ? Tes.
ia'T^T^, 13900. With one man? Tes.
10 Dec, 1891. 13901 Have you been constant, faithful to him ? Tes.
18902. As a matter of fact you do not lead the life of a prostitute now? No.
13903. Then you are practically the wife of this Chinaman ? Sometimes when I go up country I am
with another man. Not with several, you know — with one in particular.
13904. Are the Chinese kind to the women living with them ? Tes ; they were always kind to me.
13905. How many people live in the house in which you reside? I and another young woman, and the
two Chinamen.
13906. Does your female friend take white men there at all ? No.
13907. Do the Chinese with whom you are living allow you to have intercourse with other men? No.
13908. They object to it ? Tes.
13909. Do they entrust you with the house-keeping ? Tes.
13910. As a matter of fact you perform the ordinary duties of a wife, except that you are not married?
Tes.
13911. Have you had any children ? No.
13912. Do the police interfere with you at all down there ? No. They may look in now and again, but
very seldom.
13913. Is your house a place of accommodation for other women to bring men there ? No women come
to my place at all. I have been out of Sydney for nine months.
13914. And you are going up country now? Yes; I often go up for a trip. *I have relations in the
country.
13915. Mr. Abigail.'] How long have you been an opium-smoker ? Nearly three years.
13916. Did you acquire the habit while living with the man you have now ? Tes.
13917. What induced you to take up opium-smoking ? That I cannot say. I saw others do it, and I
followed their example I suppose. .
13918. Had the form of life anything to do with it, the same as other people sometimes take to drink?
No ; it was not that at all — it was my own foolishness.
13919. Tou do not drink? No.
13920. Does opium-smoking have the same effect as drink, do you know ? No ; it has no effect. The
only thing is when my time comes to take it I feel I must have it.
13921. When you smoke opium does it render you unconscious ? No. Before your time comes for a
smoke sometimes you are sick, and after you smoke you are all right again. It makes me tired, and
gives me cramps now and again.
13922. Why not give it up now ? I cannot. It is part of myself to smoke it.
13923. Have you ever heard of any virtuous girl being taken away by the Chinese, and betrayed ? No.
13924. Tour experience is that the treatment of women by the Chinese is very kind ? Tes. I kept com-
pany with a European for four years, and he was never as kind to me as the Chinamen. He led me to
what I am, and then went away and got married.
13925. He betrayed you ? Tes.
1392G. Does the Chinaman you are living with drink ? No.
13927. Does he ever ill-treat you or swear at you ? No ; nothing like that.
13928. Are you going away from Sydney with any other man? No.
13929. Are you going for a trip ? Tes.
13930. And when you come back again will you return to the same man ? Tes.
13931. Tou are not going away for any immoral purpose ? No.
13932. Do you preserve the ash of your opium ? Tes.
13933. What do you do with it ? I sell it.
13934. For what purpose ? I hear they cook it again, and make second opium of it, to sell.
13935. What do you get for it ? It depends upon the price of the opium ; sometimes I get £1 per lb.
for it, and sometimes only 15s.
13936. How long would it take you to save a pound of the ash ? If only one pipe is going I might get it in
a fortnight ; if two pipes are going of course I would get it in half the time.
13937. How much opium would it take to produce that pound of ash ? I cannot tell you.
13938. To get a pound in a fortnight ; does that mean one pipe constantly going, and being used by
different people ? No ; one who smokes a lot would produce a pound in a fortnight ; it takes me nearly
a month. I do not smoke so much.
13939. How do you buy your opium ? I get Is. worth at a time.
13910. How much do you get for a shilling — a teaspoonful ? A little more than that — they sell it by
Chinese weight.
13941. How much do you use in a day? Sometimes 2s., and sometimes Is. 6d. worth.
13942. Do most of the European girls who go with Chinamen use opium? Tes ; the most of them do,
I think.
13913. Do those who use opium as you do take intoxicating drink ? No; I have not seen two women
who smoked opium drink as well. I used to drink terribly myself before I took to opium.
13944. Mr. Hawthorne.'] When persons who drink take to opium do they knock off the drink imme-
diately ? I cannot say for all. I know I did.
13945. Have you smo ted opium this morning? No.
13946. How many pipes do you have a day ? I cannot tell you.
13947. Have you no fixed time for smoking? Tes; I generally smoke between 3 and 4 o'clock in the
afternoon, and at night between 10 and 11 o'clock.
13948. Does that interfere with your sleeping power ? Not at all.
13949. Tou take it just prior to going to bed ? Tes.
13950. What part of the country did you live in previous to you coming to Sydney ? I was in Tamworth.
I have a sister there.
13951. Is she married ? Tes.
13952. To a Chinaman ? No ; to a European.
13953. Are your people aware that you are living with a Chinaman here ? No.
13954. Are your parents living ? My mother is. 13955.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION MINTTTES OF EVIDENCE. 38^
13955. Is your mother in Sydney ? She is in Melbourne. Ellen
J™3h' S0es -,slle not make inquiries as to your course of life ? She believes what T say to her. ~
13957. Tou deceive her ? Tes. /-^— -.
w™ 5aVe! y5U ever been to Narrandera °r Tingha ? No. I have never been anywhere in the country 10 Dec" 1891"
but Maitland, Singleton, and Tamworth. I was only in Singleton for a day.
13959. There are a good few Chinese there and in Maitland ? Tes.
13960. While at Maitland do you cohabit with a Chinaman ? Tes.
13961. Is it customary for women who mix with the Chinese in Sydney to take these trips round to the
Chinese camps m the country ? I do not know that.
13962. Tou are starting from Sydney with the definite object of going to another Chinaman m the
country ? I was with him before, you know.
13963. Does the man you live with" in Sydney know that you go to this other Chinaman in the country ?
JNo. He thinks I am going to Tamworth to my sister.
13964. Mr Abigail.'} About the effects of opium-smoking;— is it not a fact that it has a tendency to give
you beautiful dreams, to send you off into a dreamy state, in which you are visited by strange fancies ?
iqoL1* n i/ n° dlfference to me> only that I have the habit of it, and cannot do without it.
13965. Could any man take advantage of you in that state without you being conscious of it ? No one
in the world could.
13966. Mr Quong Tart.'] There have been complaints made against the Chinese that they decoy young
girls away from their homes and ruin them ;— you have had a lot of experience among the Chinese in
Sydney, and you say you do not know of anything of the kind having occurred ? I have never seen
anything like that since I have been with the Chinese. The only girl in Sydney I ever heard was seduced
by a Chinaman was
13967. How did you know of that case ? Only from what she told me herself. It was before my time.
13968. Mr. McKillop.'] "What is the name of the man you are living with now ? Wong Sin.
13969. Is he not called Willie Ah Sin ? Tes ; but his'Chinese name is Wong Sin.
13970. What trade does he work at ? He is a carpenter, and works at a furniture place at Pyrmont.
13971. What wages does he get ? He gets 30s. a week, and he feeds there.
13972. Does he give you that 30s. for yourself ? Tes.
13973. And you do not go on the streets to augment your weekly allowance ? No, I do not.
13974. Has gone up country ? No.
13975 What is the man she is living with ? A cook at Riverstone. He goes on Sunday and comes home
again on Saturday night.
13976. How long has she lived with this man ? To my knowledge, she has lived with him about two years
and nine months.
13977. Is he in the habit of giving her the whole of his wages ? He gets £2 2s. a week, and gives her 30s.
£3 keep the lot of us.
13978. Is it not a fact that did earn her living on the streets while her man was out of work ?
She might, but not since she has been with me.
13979. Does your man ever ill-use you at all ? Once he did, and then I deserved it.
13980. What was it ? It was a fit of temper on my part.
13981. Is he jealous of you ? Tes.
13982. Do other Chinamen come to your place ? Sometimes when he comes home. He only comes once
a week, and stops from Saturday to Sunday night.
13983. lou have had no children ? No.
13984. Are you a native of Sydney ? Tes.
13985. Do your parents reside in Sydney ? My mother is in Sydney at present ; but she generally
resides in Melbourne.
13986. Tou were enticed by other girls to enter the Chinese quarters ? No ; I went of my own free
will.
13987. But this girl you have spoken of was the first to put the idea into your head ? Tes.
13988. What part of the town did you visit first ? A part of G-oulburn-street.
13989. Was it one of the places where gambling is carried on ? No ; it was a private house in
Robertson's-lane.
13990. Was it a house where prostitutes generally used to visit ? A few girls used to go there.
13991. A good deal of it is carried on in that lane still, is there not ? I do not know. I never go there
now.
13992. Are there any houses of ill-fame in your street ? Not that I know of.
13993. Is not No. — , Foster-street, a house of prostitution ? There is only a Chinaman living there. I
have seen one or two girls going in ; but I have never seen any harm done certainly.
13994. Do you know this Foster-street ? I do.
13995. Do you know of any European women living with Chinamen there ? I know one.
13996. Is she married to the Chinaman? I do not know ; but she has been with him a long time.
13997. Does she keep to herself ? Tes.
13998. Tou are sure nobody enters those buildings for the purpose of prostitution? I cannot say that.
I am scarcely ever out myself.
13999. When do you leave for the country ? I was going to-day, but coming here put me off. I may go
to-morrow. .
14000. Did the young man that seduced you promise you marriage previous to betraying you ? He did.
I kept company with him for four years. I went on the streets while I was with him.
14001. How old were you when you were first seduced by him ? About 14, I think.
14002. Were you employed at any factory at the time ? Tes ; I was a boot machinist, working at
M'Murtrie's. .
14003. While you were in any of these factories did you see any immorality carried on between the
young men and women there ? No ; where we worked the men were kept separate from the girls.
14004. Are you in the habit of visiting the country frequently ? Tes. I only go to three places—
Maitland, Singleton, and Tamworth. _ _
14005. And you have a Chinese friend in each place ? No ; only in Maitland.
14006. What is he in business ? He sells fancy goods and jewellery. 14007.
888 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Ellen 14007. You are going to him now ? Yes.
' 14-008. Mr. Quong Tart.'] How will you do for your smoke while you are travelling ? It takes only four
KvrT^^isqi nours t° g° to Maitland, and I shall get there before it is time for me to have my smoke.
ec-> • 14009. I suppose sometimes you carry an opium pill ? Yes ; if I want it I take it ; but I do not always
want it. Sometimes I can do without it for a couple of hours after my time.
14010. Do you not think opium-smoking is a great evil ? No ; I do not think so-. A woman that smokes
opium has always got her senses about her, but a woman who drinks has not.
14011. Do you not find that it takes away all your energies, and makes you poor in health and thin ?
Xo ; I have not altered in the least since I have smoked ; in fact I am stouter.
14012. Yours is the first case of the kind I ever heard of ? "Well, I am, certainly.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. George Merriman called and examined : —
G Merriman l^l**. President.] You are City Solicitor to the City Council of Sydney ? Yes.
'—^^^1^ 14014. It is your duty to advise the Council and the officers of the Council as to their powers under the
10 Dec, 1891. Cily °f Sydney Improvement Act, and the City Corporation Act generally ? Yes.
14015. Mr. Abigail.] I would like to ask Mr. Merriman whether you have ever had submitted to you the
question of the Chinese covering in their yards and making extra rooms to their premises without first
obtaining the permission of the City Architect? I do not think the question has been submitted to me ;
but I have spoken with Mr. M'Eae in reference to these things, and I was told yesterday that the
Commission wanted to examine. The only way you can deal with them under the Improvement Act is to
prosecute them under one of its sections for having these wooden structures on the ground, that they are
a danger 10 the neighbourhood, owing to the risk from fire.
14016. Would not that apply to those houses where the Chinese put up all kinds of partitions, and
convert the place into a veritable rabbit hatch. This is a positive danger to the neighbourhood generally,
and from a sanitary point of view in particular, and we believe it is an infringement of the law ? I do not
think so. I went through it hurriedly yesterday with Mr. M'Rae, and therefore am speaking without
having gone very fully into the matter ; but I am of opinion that the Act gives the Council no control
over the internal fittings of buildings. It refers specifically to " external walls," and so on. It is one of
the worst drawn Acts I ever met with in my life ; and its phraseology is ridiculous. But I would like to
attend before the Commission again ; and I will go very carefully through the Act, with Mr. M'Eae, in
the meantime.
[It was decided to defer the further examination of Mr. Merriman until Wednesday, the 16th
December. J
FRIDAY, 11 DECEMBER, 1891.
present:—
The Mayor oe Sydney (Mb. Alderman MANNING, J. P.), President.
EEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pkesident.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq.,-
JOHN STUAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Sun Sing Loong called and examined : —
Sun 14017. President.] Where do you reside ? In Eetreat-street, Waterloo.
Sing Loong. 140I8. What business do you follow ? I am a carpenter, and have a little shop there.
ll'De^l891 1401!)- How loaS nave y°u been living.in Waterloo ? About five years. I have been ten years in Sydney
■' ' altogether.
14020. Have you followed the occupation of a carpenter the whole of the time ? Yes.
14021. What rent do you pay ? I pay 2s. a week for a little place in a shed.
14022. Who do you pay your rent to ? To a Chinaman named Ah Quong.
14023. How many people live in that house ? Only two.
14024. Do you know who the property belongs to ? They belong to a Chinaman named Sun On.
14025. Is there much gambling going on in the premises about Eetreat-street ? In the little places I
have mentioned there is none; but further out there is.
1402G. Do Europeans assemble there to gamble ? No. Only Chinamen.
14027. Do they do much business out there in the game of pak-ah-pu ? Yes ; they sell pak-ah-pu
tickets.
14028. The Europeans buy largely of these tickets, I suppose? They buy a few.
14029. Do you know if the lottery-banks are affiliated to the shops in Lower George-street ? I do not
know.
14030. What wages do you get from your employer ? I am an employer myself. I engage one man.
14031. Where do you buy your timber ? From Allen and Walker.
14032. Is it a fact that you buy old packing-cases, and so on, to use in connection with your manufactures ?
Yes ; we use that for the interior parts of the furniture — to fill up with.
14033. Do you use the packing-case wood for the interior parts only? Yes; the exterior parts are
always made of new timber — Kauri pine.
14034. What profits do you make in the year ? The whole business done during the year represents a
turn over of £100, including material.
14035. What do you get out of it ? Sometimes we lose. We average about 10s. a week per man— that
is, my man and myself.
14036. What particular class of furniture do you mostly make ? Tables and kitchen safes.
14037. Where do you dispose of yourf urniture ? Messrs. Harris and Ackman sell it for me.
14038. Are there many cabinet-makers in Waterloo ? A good many
14039. In Eetreat-street? Yes.
14040. How many Chinamen are there living in that street altogether ? About 100, or a little under.
14041.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 389
\1mo' i~re tbe conditions of hfe healthy in that locality ? I never saw much sickness there. Sun
14042. Is not the condition of the premises about there very insanitary ? Yes ; it is bad. SinS Loong.
14042$. And notwithstanding that, you and your countrymen enjoy good health there ? Yes; we arcC^,
pretty nearly all of the same health. n Deo-. 1891.
14043. Do they smoke much opium in that locality ? Yes.
14044. Do any white women visit tbe houses of the Chinese ? No. Formerly they used to, but they do
not now. j j -i
14045. About how much a week does it cost you to live ? About 8s.
14046. Mr. Aligail.~\ Does that include rent and provisions ? Yes '
14047. What class of provisions do you have ? Beef, fish, rice, and' cabbage.
14048. How many meals a day do you have ? Three meals a day.
14049. You say you use packing-cases in connection with your work— from whom do you obtain the
packing-cases ? An Englishman with a cart goes round to these places hawking them, and we buy from
him. L & > j
14050. What do you pay for them ? Two shillings and 2s. 6d. per case.
14051. What would a 2s.-case produce in the way of furniture ? I cannot exactly say that, as I do not
know what quantity I might have to use in any piece of furniture. It would be used to fit in with other
articles. You could not make an article out of a packing-case.
14052. How many hours a day do you work ? From G o'clock in the morning until dark.
14053. Do you take an hour for each meal ? I take nearly an hour at my place.
14054. At what rate generally do you sell your furniture ? All my stuff is sent to auction to bring what
it will.
14055. Now, cannot you tell us how much profit you make on each week's labour, after deducting the 8s.
for living ? About £1 after paying everything.
14056. Have you any place in Sydney where you visit a woman ? No.
14057. Has the shed you live in the water laid on to it ? No ; we have to carry the water.
14058. Are the closets attached to the sewer ? No ; they are earth-closets, a good distance from the
house.
14059. Your work-room is kitchen, dining-room, and bed-room as well, I suppose ? Yes ; I live in the
same place.
14060. About what are. the dimensions of the place ? About 20 ft. x 12 ft.
14061. How long have you been in this Colony ? About thirteen years.
14062. Did you follow the trade of furniture-making in your own country? Yes.
14063. What did you earn there per week ? I earned there about 9d. per day.
14064. Would you work the same hours then ? Yes.
14065. Would you live in the same mariner as you do here ? No ; not quite so bad as we do here. My
provisions would be better in China.
14066. What would they consist of ? Beef, pork, fresh fish, and rice.
14067. Could you buy all that for 9d. a day, and save money ? I would get 9d. a day, and my master
would provide the provisions.
14058. The 9d. a day would be clear profit ? Yes.
14069. What would your wages be if you had to find yourself ? An industrious man would make about
2s. a day ; a lazy man would make perhaps Is. 6d., or less.
14070. What would it cost you to live in the style you live in here ? Twopence a day would keep me in
China.
14071. Could you buy beef, pork, fish, and so on, for that ? Yes ; quite sufficient.
14072. Am I to understand that 2d. a day would find you in three meals a day as liberally as you live
here, with, meat and bread, and other requirements ? Yes ; it would be quite sufficient. But in China we
only have two meals a day.
14073. Then Id. will provide each meal. Do you get meat at each meal in China ? Yes ; Id. a meal
would be quite sufficient. At one meal we might have a little fish, and at another a little meat. But 2d.
would be quite sufficient to provide all we want.
14074. Describe what you. would have at a meal? Rice, meat, fish, and cabbage — no bread.
14075. And you drink tea, I suppose ? Yes.
14076. Then, as a matter of fact, if what you say is true, you would be much better off in your own
country than you are here ? I do not see much difference. It is easier and quicker to make money in
this country.
14077. Do you work on Sunday in China ? Yes.
14078. Then if you were an industrious man in China, you would be able to earn 14s. a week ? Yes.
14079. And you could live for seven days, at 2d. a day, that would be Is. 2d., which would give 12s. lOd.
profit ? Yes.
14080. And I suppose the value of 12s. lOd. in China would be four or five times as great as it is here ?
Yes.
14081. Then what induces your people to leave China, where you live under such favourable circumstances,
to come here ? Every working man in China does not earn as much as I have stated. He must be a
good man to make that money. Some of them would not earn enough to keep themselves in food. The
rate of wage I have mentioned is the highest obtained in China for skilled workmen.
14082. Do you gamble ? I buy tickets in the lottery.
14083. Have you ever been successful — lucky ? No, I never won.
14084. Do you smoke opium ? No. ,
14085. Is there much opium-smoking out your way ? Yes ; a good many of them smoke opium.
14086. As a rule, what effect has opium upon those who indulge in it ? They are very thin fellows.
14087. Does it injure their health ? It is bad for them.
14088. If you wanted to engage a man to do a good day's work would you employ a man who smoked
opium ? No ; I would not engage an opium-smoker. ,■,*-,-, mi j
14089. You believe it impairs their energies— destroys their manhood ? It does. They are no good.
14090. Do you believe gambling is an injurious habit ? Yes. _
14091. I suppose you are saving up money to get back to your own country ? Yes. 1 am trying to. I
wish to get back. l4092-
390 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sun 14-092. What do you consider will be sufficient to take you back and enable you to live comfortably there?
Sing Loang. j woulj like t0 get £200. . .
' s 14093. If you got back with that amount, would it be enough to enable you to start m business or live
11 Dec, 1891. coinfortabiy ? Tt would be quite enough. I would buy rice-fields, and receive the rents from them.
14094. \\ hat value would £200 represent in Chinese money ? One thousand dollars. With that £200
I would buy ten mows (fields) of rice, that is 30 acres, and that would give a fairly good income.
14095. Would you consider yourself independent then ? I might do a little work.
14096. Mr. Quong Tart.] You are a carpenter by trade ? Tes.
14097. How many years have you been in that line constantly ? I have been two years working for
myself, and before that I was working at the trade for a master.
14098. How much have you made now ? I have saved very little money. I have spent it nearly all.
14099. But you must have saved money when you were employed by others, and had no business losses ?
Well, I sent a good bit of money home to my people.
14100. Have you gained or lost during the two years you have been working for yourself? I am just
about in the same position as when I started.
14101. Complaints have been made about the Chinese cabinet-makers injuring the trade of the Europeans,
and I want to know from you something about the extent of the Chinese production in this direction, and
what they receive in return ; — how many cabinet-makers are there where you live ? Twelve.
14102. About how much in value could they produce in a week ? About £30 worth of stuff.
14103. How much would you make out of that £30 worth of furniture in the way of profit? After
deducting the cost of timber, nails, and everything, £14 would be the net return.
14104. Where do you buy the materials you use in the manufacture of these articles ? We buy it from
the Europeans.
14105. Tou pay away £16 in that way ? Tes.
14106. Now, who buys the goods from you ? All my goods are sold by auction, and are purchased by
Europeans.
14107. Do any Europeans come to your place to order goods ? No.
14108. How much do you make clear after paying for your rent and grub, &c. ? About 18s. is what I
get clear. Of course if the goods do not fetch a good price we lose.
14109. Why did you not continue to work for a master instead of starting for yourself i I made a
mistake when I started for myself.
14110. Tou say you use packing-cases in the manufacture of some of the articles you produce. How
many of those packing-oases would be used in the marking the different articles which would represent
the £30 worth of stuff you have mentioned ? In a four-chest of drawers not quite 6d. worth of old
packing-cases would be used. In a good many of the articles no old packing-cases are used, but all good
timber.
14111. What do you use the old cases for ? Eor the inside of chests of drawers, and so forth.
14112. Would that be sufficiently good for the very best work ? No ; it is not so good as the other
timber. It is used for filling up in parts of furniture that are not seen.
14113. Do you know if other Chinese cabinet-makers work on the same lines as yourself, or is yours the
only place where they work like that ? They all work in that way in Waterloo.
14114. What kind of work do the Sydney firms do ? The Sydney firms all do good work.
14115. Are there not some at Botany? There is only one at Botany. He employs ten men at the same
kind of work.
14116. Where were you employed before you commenced to work for yourself ? I worked for Ah Toy.
14117. What did Ah Toy give you a week ? He gave me 22 shillings a week and my keep.
14118. Then you got more as a journeyman than you do working for yourself. Is that because the Sydney
firms get a better price for their furniture ? Yes ; they make a better class of goods.
14119. Tou thought that you could, being an industrious man, make more by working for yourself ? Tes ;
I thought by our industry I should be able to make more.
14120. Now, how much would one penny of English money represent in Chinese cash ? One English
penny is equal to twenty Chinese cash.
14121. In China a man has to serve so many years' apprenticeship before he becomes a competent trades-
man, does he not ? Tes ; three years.
14122. What did you serve your time to ? Cabinet-making.
14123. I suppose the 14s. a week which you say a journeyman could earn in China would be the wage of
a tip-top man ? Tes ; a first-class man would earn that.
14124. And a good man like that would not find any difficulty in getting a living in China ? No.
14125. Is it not a fact that the employers will have nothing to do with tradesmen who are opium-
smokers ? They will not employ opium-smokers.
14126. With regard to this £200 worth of rice-land that you would purchase if you had the means, what
would be the rent you would receive for it ? The rice crops are twice a year ; I cannot exactly say what
the £200 would return me.
14127. Go by percentage ? One division of land would give ten very large baskets of rice, each weighing
about 60 lb., and the occupiers of the land would give me one of those baskets as rental.
14128. That would be 10 per cent. ? Tes.
14129. How many pak-ah-pu banks are there in Waterloo ? Two lottery-banks.
14130. Is it not very difficult indeed to get a certain mark in pak-ah-pu ? It is very hard to win anything.
14131. In China they would describe it as being as difficult as " getting the moon under the water"? Tes.
14132. Do you think gambling is a demoralising habit ? It is bad — very bad.
14133. It is bad for the poor Chinese workers, this fan-tan and pak-ah-pu ? Tes ; they lose their
money at that.
14134. Would you like to see the gambling stopped ? Tes ; I would like to see gambling and opium-
smoking done away with.
14135. What would you suggest as a means of putting a stop to the gambling ? The only thing I can
suggest is that the police should go to these places frequently. If they did that the gamblers would
have to stop.
14136. And how would you do with the lotteries ? I think the best way would be to get hold of those
who had shares in the lottery. 14137.
11 Dec, 1891.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 391
14fi7'i^W*Ul1d {t he a good thing to Punist the ticket seller ? The best way, in my opinion, would be to Sun
get noid ot those interested when they opened the banks to call out the numbers. They would soon be SmS LoonS-
trightened to proceed. r^ \
14138. How many gamblers are there living in the place where you are ? There are over twenty where "
1 live— that is, living on the game.
14139 Do you know any Chinese informers ? There is one out there whom the Chinese talk a good
deal about ; his name is Lee Kum. He lives on them out there
^i1??' ?°W ma1ny Sambling-tables are there out there ? There are seven.
]aiao tV5 J0U *??T x°7 ^ly Chinese cabinet-makers there are in Sydney ? I cannot say.
14I4A JJo you think the Chinese cabinet-makers earn much monev in the city and suburbs at the
present time i Business is very bad at the present time. '
cannot iSKem360"186 ^^ **"* hecome very low. The firms make up quantities of goods, and then
}t}^t' 5° y°U uU-y th/ Cl0t^e.s that y°u wear in this country ? Tes ; all our clothing is bought here.
14145. Do you bring from China any of the material used in your trade ? None of the timber we use
?T^ aj ^ , ETerJtllmg m connection with the business is bought here.
1414b. And the tools you work with—where do you buy those ? All tools are bought here at the iron-
mongers. °
14147. Do they not use a Chinese saw sometimes ? A very little comes from China— perhaps a little
saw, or an occasional tomahawk.
14148. How is it that the Chinese-made goods are cheaper than the English make;— what is the difference
between the two articles ? The difference can easily be seen. The difference arises from the English-
men s wages being higher, and because they are slower workmen.
14149 But what kind of work do they turn out;— that is the thing? The Englishman takes more care
over the work, and the Chinese make a quick job ; and the Englishman's work is more lasting, because
the wood is better shrunk.
14150._ You say the Chinese arc quicker ;— is the difference because in the case of equally good workmen
belonging to both nations the Chinese will not take so much pains over the work ? If the timber is well
seasoned my work will be equally as good as an Englishman's.
14151. Mr. Abigail.'] Then the difference is in the timber and not in the work ? Tes ; that is where it
arises.
14152. Mr. Quong Tart.] Is this table made by Chinese or Europeans ? It is a European-made table.
14 153. Mr. Hawthorne.] How can you tell it is of European manufacture? Looking it all over I can
tell. The " turning" of the legs is European turning.
14154. Is it not a fact that some of your countrymen in Groulbum-street have stacks of timber drying for
months ? Tes.
14155. Do you think the Chinese cabinet-makers about G-oulburn-street in a larger way of business make
up better work than you do ? Tes ; goods that are ordered.
14156. Could you tell the difference between some of the ordered goods made by first-class Chinese
cabinet-makers and European work ? Tes.
14157. How is it that the Chinese do not arrive at the same perfection as cabinet-makers as the Europeans ?
Because they want to get things done quickly, and are always in a hurry.
14158. Do not the Chinese use nails where the Europeans use screws ? Tes.
14159. Where did you learn your trade ? In China ; I served an apprenticeship of three years.
14160. Is that the usual time that youths in China serve to learn the cabinet-making ? Tes.
14161. Are they supposed to be journeymen at the end of three years ? Tes.
14162. Do they ever take apprentices here from your countrymen, and bind them the same as they do in
China for three years to learn the business ? No ; they take them for few months and set them to rough
work when they first come in.
14163. Is it not a fact that the planes which the Chinese use are made in China ? No ; they are bought
here.
14164. Are not the Chinese planes very different from the Europeans ? No ; there is not much difference.
14165. When you want any tools that are peculiar to the Chinese race do you write home for them, or
indent them through the Chinese houses here ? If we want an article like that we get one of the Chinese
stores to write home for it.
14166. Have you got a wife in Sydney ? No ; in China.
14167. Are you in the habit of going into houses of ill-fame in Wexford-street or elsewhere? No.
14168. Do women go from Sydney to Waterloo, seeking custom among the gardeners and cabinet-makers
there? No. There might be a few in Botany, but not where I live.
14169. Do you pick a woman off the street, or go to one of their houses? I go to Wexford-street.
14170. Are there many houses of ill-fame kept by Europeans there for the use of the Chinese? There
are several ; but I do not know how many.
14171. In the event of Chinamen getting venereal disease, as they frequently do, where do they go for
treatment ? They go principally to a Chinese chemist, or in some cases to an English doctor.
14172. Is it a common thing to find your countrymen afflicted with venereal disease ? I cannot say how
many there are, but that some have it while they are working at their trade.
14173. Have you known many cases of Chinese vegetable-hawkers suffering from this disease ? They
will not tell you. But there are some I know to have the first stages of it.
14174. Mr. McKillop.] What part of China do you come from ? Canton. I am of the Tou Tup
community.
14175. Are there many of your clan in Sydney? Tes, there are over 1,000 of them.
14176. Do you know of the existence of any" Chinese secret societies ? I only know of one_ society
called the Hing Eook Tong, the object of which is to take old men home to China, and take their bones
home.
14177. Has it no other object ? No.
14178. Do you not know of any secret society that has for its object the raising of funds for the protec-
tion of those who may be proceeded against by the police ? No.
14179. Are you in any way connected with those gambling-houses in Eetreat-street ? No.
J 14180.
11 Dec, 1891.
392 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE.
Sun 1-1- 180. Do you know that there is a certain percentage of the winnings of these gambling-houses placed
Sing Loong. to a fund for the purpose of defending Chinamen that ara prosecuted by the police for gambling ? I
have heard of it; but 1 cannot say whether it is true or not.
141S1. Do you know of any cases where youug boys have been tampered with by Chinese, in a criminal
manner? I never saw anything like it, but I have heard something about it.
14182. In your quarter ? I have heard Chinamen out there talk about it. But whether any such a
thing occurred I do not know.
1 1183. Do you know of any young girls of 12 or 13 years of age visiting the Chinese quarters in your
locality ? No ; I never saw any girls there, or women either.
14184. Is it not a fact that parents in Alexandria send some of their children to the Chinese gardens to
pick vegetables ? I have seen girls at the gardens, but what their object has been I cannot say.
14185. Do the men in your locality visit the various places in Lower George-street, G-oulburn-street, and
Wexford-street on Sundays, for the purpose of gambling and smoking opium ? Tes.
14186. Do you smoke opium? No. I have smoked a little in times past, but I never smoke opium now.
141S7. How many opium-dens are there in your street ? There are four known places.
[The witness withdrew.]
SATURDAY, 12 DEC/EMBER, 1891.
flrmnt: —
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-President, in the Chair.
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., | QTJONG- TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Lay Jong called and examined through the interpreter : —
14188. Mr. Abigail.'] Where do you live ? In Elizabeth-street.
Lay Jong. I 41.89. What business do you follow ? I keep a furniture shop.
r~ ^*-^~\ 14100. How many men do you employ ? Twenty-five.
12 Dec, 1891. 14191. Uo you find them in food? Yes.
14192. What wages do you pay in addition to the food that you give them ? Some get 30s. a week and
some 35s.
14193. Is 30s. the lowest? £1 is the lowest, and 35s. is the highest.
14194. What rate of wages would the same class of men receive in China ? About 15s. a month and
their food.
14195. That would be about 3s. 9d. a week? Tes; but that is the lowest wage that would be paid in
China.
14190. What would be the highest ? A good man would get 30s. a month and his food.
14 197. So that the rate of wages in China would be from 3s. 9d. to 7s. 6d. a week in addition to food ? Tes.
11-198. What hours do your men work here? Erom half -past 5 in the morning to half -past 6 at
night, with one hour for each meal.
14L99. And how many meals a day do they get ? Three.
14200. But do they take their tea before they knock off at half-past 6, or after ? After they have
finished their work for the day.
14201. So that, as a matter of fact, between half-past 5 in the morning and balf-past 6 at night they
have two meal times? Tes.
14202. Now what description of food do they get ? Pork, beef, salt fish, rice, and cabbage.
14203. And each man is allowed to have as much as he thinks fit to take ? Tes.
14204. Now is that sort of living equal to or superior than the same class of men would get in China ?
It is about the same.
14205. And are the hours of work about the same ? Tes.
14206. Do they receive three meals a day in China when they are working ? Tes.
14207. What would it cost for a man to live in China as you have described your men living here ? About
3d. a day.
1420S. Tou say that it would cost 3d. a day for a man to live in China ; about how much would it cost a
man (o live in the same style here ? Between 6s. and 7s. a week on an average.
14209. So that a man can live on a fourth of the amount in China that it takes for him to live here ? Tes.
14210. And he earns here more than four times as much as he would earn in China? Tes.
14211. What is the description of work that they do at your place ? It is all high -class furniture.
14212. Do you use any old packing cases ? No.
14213. All new timber ? Yes.
14214. And from whom do you obtain your timber? Erom John Bull & Co. principally.
14215. And to whom do you sell the finished articles? To Earmer & Co. and Hoffnung & Co.
14216. Do you send any into auction ? No.
14217. What amount of capital have you embarked in the business ? About £500.
14218. And what is your turnover ? A little over £60 a week.
14219. So that you turn your capital over twice in the course of a year ? Tes.
14220. Is it a profitable business ? I do not make much money.
14221. And is that the result of keen competition with your own countrymen ? Tes.
14222. There is a large number of Chinese cabinet-makers in the city at'the present time ? Tes. .
14223. And they cut against one another in competing for the market, and in that way reduce the prices ?
Those at Waterloo and Alexandria are spoiling our trade.
14224. Do you know how many Chinese furniture factories there are about the city ? Large and small,
including those places at Alexandria, there are about forty or fifty.
14225. And about how many men are there employed in them ? There is an average of thirteen persons
in each place, or something like 500 altogether.
14226. Do you think that the general condition of these 500 ia much superior to what their condition
would be if they had remained in China? My opinion is that they are better off here.
14227.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 393
14227. As a 'rule, are the Chinese furniture-makers a steady, saving class of men ? Yes, they are indus- Lay Jong,
trious men. * - * ,- s
14228. Do they gamble much ? Yes, they do gamble. 12 Dec., 1891.
it'oon TaS no* Samblillg a national pastime in China ? Yes, it is, more or less.
i moqi a j /• I™7 st"ctJ m y°ur country in the means they take of suppressing it ? Yes.
142dl. And yet it is carried on ? Yes.
14232. Is it a customary thing for the gamblers there to make presents to the people charged with the
beeS^uSe'reso Ion6 J6Ct °f belng all°Wed t0 Carrj *' °n ? I Ca°not say myself ' I have
S' **ave y°u eT« ^eari of the police in this part of the world being bribed ? No.
14234. Do you gamble ? No. 6
14235. Do you smoke opium ? JSTo.
}f oo£" ?° y0U belieV-e b.th Sambling and opium-smoking to be bad ? They are no good.
J! ooo" -fre y°U marr?ed ? J was married in China, and my wife is there.
i a oqq w y°U n0t tDg with a woman here' or> at a11 events> keeping one ? No.
of sedu in thyGU?eVN thG Chinese here entraPPing young girls into their places for the purpose
14240. What form of religion do you adhere to? I am a follower of Confucius, though sometimes I
go to hear Mr. Soo Hoo Ten preach in Pitt-street.
14241. Do you know any means that would enable the Government to suppress fan-tan and pak-ah-pu,
and also opium-smoking ? I should like to see them suppressed, but I do not know what would.be the
best means of doing so.
14242. You said something about the Waterloo cabinet-makers doing more harm to the furniture trade
than anybody else ;— would you kindly explain what you mean ? The Waterloo cabinet-makers are not
legitimate traders. They buy up all kinds of old timber, use up old packing eases, and so on, and run the
furniture up quickly and roughly, making it look decent only on the outside. Then they send it to
auction, and it is bought by the dealers cheap.
14243. And, I suppose, that when it is taken home it dries and cracks? Yes ; it breaks open.
14244. Do you ever have any complaints from Farmer & Co. and others about the furniture you make ?
No ; I have been serving Farmer & Co. for the past twelve years.
14245. What accommodation have you in your place ; — how many rooms ? There are eight rooms. At
my own expense I put a couple of rooms on the roof.
14246. And how many of these rooms are occupied as sleeping apartments by these twenty-five men ?
Some of them go home to sleep, but in my large rooms four sleep in a room, and in the others three.
14247. Is the sanitary conditions of the place good, or have you had any complaints from the inspector o<
nuisances? No; they have always said that my place was very clean. My landlord is the Honorable
John Lucas, M.L.C., and in consequence of the improvements that I have made I pay £2 2s. a week rent.
14248. Have you a yard ? Yes.
14249. And is it enclosed? Yes ; it is covered over for the men io work in.
14250. And is the water-closet enclosed in the yard? It is at the far end of the yard.
14251. It is not near to the cooking arrangements ? No.
14252. What is the number of your place ? 429, Elizabeth-street.
14253. And no women ever visit that place ? No; excepting one woman, who comes to take away washing.
14254. But there are no women in the habit of visiting your place for immoral purposes? No.
14255. Do you know the effect of opium-smoking upon the persons who smoke ? The habitual opium-
smoker has no flesh ; it is all dried up.
14256. Do you think it is possible for opium to be administered to a girl, so that she would lose her con-
sciousness and be unaware of anything that was done to her whilst she was under the influence of the
drug ? I never heard that it was so.
14257. Are you living in the hope of going back to China ? Yes.
14258. About how much money would be sufficient to enable you to return and live comfortably there for
the rest of your life ? About £300 or £4C0 would be enough.
14259. Have you any partners ? There are five of us— all brothers — in the concern, and I am the eldest.
14260. Have you been employers all the time that you have been here? I worked three years for wages,
and the balance of the time I have been an employer.
14261. And does the same apply to your brothers ? They have been with me ever since they came out.
14262. Have they wives in China? Yes.
14263. And do they equally abstain from any contact with European women here ? I cannot say.
14264. Do you remit any money to your wives ? Yes.
14265. How much ? Each of us send £5 a year.
14266. Are you connected with any other business or vegetable garden ? Formerly I had a vegetable
garden, but I have not got one now.
14267. How long is that ago ? It is six years ago.
14268. Used you to employ men in the garden ? We employed six men in it.
14269. Where was the garden ? At Eooty Hill.
14270. And how much a week did you pay the gardeners ? 18s. or 19s. a week.
14271. And out of that they had to find themselves, I suppose ? Yes.
14272. Did you make a profit out of the garden ? No ; we lost, and that is why we gave it up.
14273. Have you ever been connected with a syndicate that ran opium-smoking and gambling-places ? No.
14274. You are very strongly opposed to both opium-smoking and gambling ? Yes, I am.
14275. Have you any property in China ? I have a little.
14276. And who is looking after the proceeds of that ? A son of my old uncle.
14277. What about your wife ;— does she not get any of it ? Yes. The son of my old uncle looks after her.
14278. Does that property consist of a farm ? It is a rice field.
14279. Rice-growing is a very profitable occupation, is it not ? Yes ; some people manage to make money
out of it ; others cannot. .
14280. You have got £500 in the business amongst you, and when you have increased that so that every
one of you can draw £300 or £400 each you will return to China ? Yes. 14281.
272—3 D
894 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Ls^Jong. 14281 ^re you ever interfered with by the Government or by larrikins, or by the police, or by anybody
r~^^^ else " Sometimes larrikins throw stones on the roof of the buildings, but that is all the interference we
12 Dec, 1801. ' .
ever get. . , . ,
14282. And you have no fault to find with the laws of the country or the general way in which you are
treated ? No ; the laws of the country are very good. _
14283. Supposing the poll-tax was taken off, would it result in your bringing your wives here and making
this country your permanent home ? Yes.
14284. Mr. Quong Tart.] Tou have had a long experience in Sydney ; I can tell that by the evidence you
have been giving '? Yes ; I have had a long experience here.
14285. There are many complaints by Europeans that the Chinese are taking the furniture trade out of
their hands ? Yes ; I know that.
14286. Do you consider that in coming here the Chinese cabinet-makers have benefited themselves or the
country the most ? They have benefited themselves in some degree.
14287. But would it not benefit the Europeans from whom you buy your goods ? Yes ; no doubt
it would.
14288. If you sold a wardrobe for £100, how much would go to the Europeans and how much would go
to you ? £70 would go to the Europeans for material, and we should get £30 for our trouble and
labour.
14289. With regard to the goods that are sold by auction, you say that some Chinese send goods to
auction, but that is only rubbish ? Yes ; that is only rubbish.
14290. And those of you who make good furniture never send goods to auction at all ? No ; excepting
when we are pushed to meet bills, and then we may send a little.
14291. But, as a rule, you never send to auction? No ; never unless we are compelled to do so.
14292. And if you get a special order is it executed much better ? Yes.
14293. You say that business is very dull in consequence of the competition of these cheap furniture-
TT1J1 Kfypci p\T. AA/ 3TiA"T*l nf) r Ypo
14294. How many are there in "Waterloo who turn out rubbish ? There are about thirty of them in
Botany and Waterloo.
14295. And they all damage the good cabinet-makers of Sydney ? Yes.
14296. And if the Europeans complain that they cannot compete with the Chinese they are referring to
the men in Alexandria, and not to the legitimate cabinet-makers in the city ? Yes ; the harm would be
done by the little men.
14297. What, besides the poor wood that is used, makes their furniture so cheap ? Oh, it is very common
furniture. They give it out to other Chinamen to make by piecework, and the polish and varnish are
exceedingly cheap.
14298. So that it would be hard for you to fight against that class of labour ? Yes ; we cannot possibly
compete with them.
14299. You say that you have twenty-five Chinese in your employ ; — how much money does each man
save in the course of a year ? That is very hard to say. Some would save £3 or £5, and some as much
as £10. The rest they would spend here.
14300. I suppose that some of them go to the gambling-houses without your knowing it ? Yes ; I have
heard it said that they do.
14301. If gambling was stopped, would it not be very much better for all the gardeners and cabinet-
makers and respectable tradesmen ? Yes ; it would be a benefit for everyone.
Chow Kum called in and examined through the interpreter : —
Chow Kum. 14302. Mr. Abigail] Where do you live ? In Elizabeth-street.
' "-^"n 14303. What business do you follow ? I am a carpenter, and furniture-maker.
12 Dec, 1891. 14304. How many men do you employ ? Thirty -four.
14305. And what rate of wages do you pay them ? Some get 30s. a week, some 35s., and some 27s. 6d.
14306. And do you find them in food and lodging as well ? Yes.
14307. What hours do they work ? Erom daylight till dark.
14308. And what kind of food do they have ? Beef, pork, fish, rice, and cabbage.
14309. Everybody has as much as they want? Yes.
14310. And how many meals have they ? Three meals a day.
14311. What is the accommodation in the place ? There are four or five rooms, and one very large room
at the top.
14312. Is there plenty of ventilation ? There are thirteen windows in the house.
14313. And are the sanitary arrangements good ? Yes ; it is quite a new place,
14314. Have you had any complaints from the Corporation officers ? No ; they all say that it is very
clean.
14315. What would the same class of men that you have got receive in China for the same class of work?
Erom 4s. to 8s. a week and their food.
14316. And comparing the food and lodging conditions here with those existing in China, which are the
best ? They are about the same.
14317. They would get about three meals a day, and work about the same number of hours in China ?
Yes ; three meals a day, and about the same number of hours' work.
14318. How much do you reckon that it would take per man, in English money, to feed one man in
China ? It would cost about 3d. a meal.
14319. Well then, if we have been told that in China a man can get a meal of pork or fish and rice and
tea for Id., would that be untrue? Well, 3d. a day is enough for the extreme poor, but I know that
these workmen pay about 9d. a day for food.
14320. Would it be possible to get a meal of rice, fish, cabbage, and tea for a penny under any circum-
stances ? Eor a trifle over a penny it would.
14321. But it would be very coarse food, I suppose? Yen ; very coarse. Working men would want
something a little better.
14322. What class of work do you produce ? They are all ordered goods. - 14323.
GHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
oSfiLtSfi0' Whm d° 7°S m^ke lhT^ Bradley, Newton, and Lamb, Anthony Hordern, Hall, in OhowKuav
ureorge-sweet, and. formerly for Campbell Brothers. f-+~\^rs
iltot' tt h°W much do you send out a weet ? £8° or £90 worth 12 De«'r1891'
il^oft a °W mUeh caPital have vou embarked in the business ? Over £1 000
and we W^ll e^ual sWa.1™™88' °r *"* ^ *"**"• ? There are *ree °f US> a11 relativeS> in ** '
prSpanj0111 ^^ d° y°U g6t y°Ur mat6rial ? Fr°m Allen and Walker aQd the Ka™ Timber Company
atoTd deal70" ™ "^ M packinS"cases ? N° ; every bit of it is new, and we go in for walnut and ash
14329. Are you married ? No.
JSS?' kTaZZ aDy ,E,Ur;?Pean w°men \isitinS you ? No ; I am a business man.
lS?9 52 te tn°- IT m d°meSt,C Ufe ? I£ y°U haye anymoney it is very good.
15w i* * W i mC\° haTe/ 7°man about the house ? Tt is a11 ™ry well in China, but there is
nothing m it here if you have not plenty of monev
14333. Have you a wife in China ? Yes.
14334. How much do you send home to her a year ? Twenty pounds.
14335. Have you any family in China ? Tes
iIqq* ^h 7 d° 7 ™ u^ brbg y°^ wife and *amilv here ? U would he too much money.
iJSSq t^ y°U c?u]d br™S T0U^ Wlfe and family here without any poll-tax, would you do so ? Tes.
14338 Do you indulge m gambling at all ? No ; I should not have time even if I had any desire. I
am a business man. J
i ^n y°uld you like to see gambling put down ? Tes ; it is no good.
14340. 1 suppose you know that your countrymen indulge in it to a very large extent? Tes; I have
heard that it is carried on, but I do not know anything about it.
14341. Do you smoke opium ? No.
14342. Do any of your men ? About five of them smoke.
14343. Have you any experience of the effects of opium upon the people who use it? They are very
lazy, and have a dull grey look in their faces.
14344. Would it be possible, by administering opium to girls, to reduce them to such a state that they
would not be conscious of what was being done to them ? I do not think so. I never heard of it.
14345. Do you suffer at all by the competition that takes place in furniture-making ? Tes, I do ; and I
have noticed this : that an establishment with capital can afford to wait for its money whilst others have
to force sales.
14346. I suppose you are seized with the same desire as the rest of your countrymen— as soon as you '
can make enough money you will go back to Chira ? Yes.
14347. Tou are not so much impressed with this country that you would like to make it your permanent
home and burying place ? Of course if I could not make enough money I should have to remain here.
14348. But you would like to go home ? I would like first to go into a larger business and make more
money, and then after that to go back to China.
14349. But is it not the desire of all Chinamen to go back to China? Tes.
14350. They do not make themselves permanent citizens of any part of the world in which their lot
happens for the time being to be cast ? No, all Chinamen like to go home at least once or twice to see
the old people.
14351. Have you heard anything about gross immorality of Chinamen with European women in
Sydney ? No.
14352. Have you never heard of them down in Wexford-street entrapping little girls into their places and
illusing them ? As I live in Wexford-street I have seen plenty of little girls in the street, but for what
purpose they meet there I cannot say.
14353. Have any of them ever come to your house ? I would not allow them to come in if they did.
14354. Mr. Quong Tart.'] How many Chinamen, as far as you are aware, have left their own country and
come to New South Wales, and then never gone back again ? I know a good many that have remained
here permanently.
14355. Mr. Abigail.'] Those men have no money to take them back I suppose ? No.
14356. Are you a follower of Confucius ? I go sometimes to the Chinese Church to hear Mr. Soo Hoo
Ten, but I do not follow him in religion.
14357. Mr. Quong Tart.] And why don't those people go back to China ? Because they have no money.
As a general rule their money has all gone in opium-smoking and gambling, and they have become too
old to do anything to make any more.
14358. How much material connected with your business do you buy from China ? I buy everything
in the Colony.
14359. And I suppose you have to buy a good deal of material? Tes.
14360. Supposing it is said that the Chinese buy everything from China, and take everything they make
out of the Europeans back to China, would that be true ? No, it is untrue. Everything is bought here
even to the clothes we wear.
14361. Do you get any food from China ? A little bit is bought from the Chinese stores here, but the
greater part from Europeans.
14362. Well, now I want to ask you this question : If you turn over £50 or £60 a week after paying
Europeans for rent and materials, how much would you save for yourself ? The Europeans would get
£35 out of it, and the balance would go in wages and provisions.
14363. How do you find trade now ? Middling.
14364. And if trade is bad of course you have to lose by it ? Tes ; if trade goes down I have to
stand the racket.
14365. It has been said that Europeans complain that Chinese cabinet-makers are much cheaper than
Europeans ; — I want to know whether that is a fact ? My work will compare with the work of any
European.
14366. So that you can challenge European workmen to compete with you ? Some Chinamen do bad
work, I know, but 1 am willing to place my work against any Englishman's work.
14367. Are there any Chinese cabinet-makers in Waterloo who are injuring your business ? Tes ; they
are knocking cheap furniture up, and spoiling my business. 14368.
396 CUtXESE gambltxg commission — mixctes of evidexce.
Chow Kum. 14368. If they were done away with I suppose it would be a very good thing for both English and
/-*^-^~\ Chinese cabinet-makers generally ? Yes ; it would be better for us both. Country people come down to
12Dec., 1891. Sydney, and buy the stuff they make at the auction sales, but they only look at the outside of it, and do
not see the rubbish it is made of.
14369. Have any new Chinese cabinet-makers opened this year ? As far as I know, about three or four
have opened this year.
14370. But they are not opening now as rapidly as they did a few years ago ? No ; nothing like as
rapidly.
14371. And with regard to the number of hours worked a day, the Chinese have no regular hours. They
work from daylight till dark ? Yes.
14372. And the shorter the day the worse it is for the employer ? Yes ; that is so.
14373. But in case some of your workpeople are sick, do you pay them ? We give them their grub, but
deduct their wages.
14374. Probably, however, he would not be able to eat it ? Well ; that is so much the worse for him.
It is therefor him.
14375. If there were no gambling and no opium-smoking, it would bo good for both Chinese and
Europeans ? Yes ; very good indeed.
14376. Have you ever heard it complained that the Chinese take the young women into their houses, and
teach them to smoke opium and act immorally ? If they come in at all they come in of their own
accord. I have heard of it ; but never seen any of them in.
14377. Mr. McKillop.] Do you use much pine in making your furniture ? Yes.
14378. Do you pass it off for cedar by staining it ? No ; if it was cedar I would tell the purchasers, so.
14379. Do you belong to any secret society in China? No.
14380. You do not belong to any secret society for the purpose of sending dead bones home to China ?
Oh, yes ; I see what you mean. I belong to the Koong Ye Tong.
14381. Is that the only one ? Yes.
14382. Does that society also send old men home to China ? Yes ; old men who cannot work we send
home.
14383. You do not leave them here to be thrown into the benevolent asylums ? No.
14384. Would it not be better for you to contribute amongst yourselves for a home in which you could
place the old and decrepit Chinamen living here ? Yes ; that would be very good, but they would like to
go home to China to die.
14385. What part of China do you come from ? Canton.
14386. Could you form any idea of whether this table at which you are sitting was made by a Chinaman
or by an Englishman? It was made by an Englishman.
14387. How do you know that ? The Chinese cabinet-makers would use that kind of wood for the table-top
but the legs I see are very old and well seasoned wood.
14388. The Chinese do not use such expensive wood ? No.
14389. Then, according to that, you cannot compare Chinese-made furniture with European-made furni-
ture? If we liked to make a table as good in all respects as this is we could do so. If they liked tj
pay for it we could turn out a table exactly like it.
14390. Do any of the people you deal with ask you to make good furni'ure ? Yes. I make plenty of ash
furniture and get £30 or £40 for a wardrobe sometimes.
14391. Do you do any upholstery work ? Wo.
14392. Who does that ? Englishmen do that.
14393. In your place ? No.
14394. Do you make the frames of chairs ? No.
14395. What do they do with old men when they go back to China ? Sometimes they go to live with
their old wives, sometimes with their friends, and sometimes, when they have no friends, they go to their
tribes, and the tribes look after them.
14396. Have they no benevolent asylums there ? No.
14397. And if the tribes will not look after them they die in the street ? Oh, the tribes must look after .
them.
14398. Is that according to law ? Yes.
14399. The law prevents them neglecting the old and decrepit ? Yes.
14400. Mr. Quong Tart.] If the poll-tax had not been so heavy would you have brought your wife out ?
Yes. Now that my business is established I would have done, but at the time the poll-tax was low I
could not afford to bring her out.
14401. If there was no poll-tax a good many Chinamen would send home for their wives, would they
not ? Yes.
Sun War Hop called and examined : —
Sun 14402. Mr. Abigail.] Where do you live ? In Castlereagh-street.
War Hop, 14403. What business do you follow ? I am a cabinet-maker.
/— «~«-»-a 14404. How many men do you employ ? Twenty -four.
12 Dec, 1891. 14405. What wages do you pay them ? £1 a week is the lowest we pay, and 36s. the highest.
14406. And you find them in food and lodging ? Yes.
14407. What hours do they work ? Erom 6 o'clock in the morning to half-past 5 o'clock at night.
14408. And have they their meal times out of that ? Yes ; three meals a day.
14409. How long for meals ? A little over half an hour for each meal.
14410. What description of food do they get ? Beef, pork, rice and cabbage.
14411. Daily? Yes.
14412. Do they have meat and fish at every meal ? Sometimes they have meat, and sometimes fish : but
always one or the other.
14413. What class of goods do you produce ? Good furniture
14414. And who do you supply ? Anthony Hordern, Murray Bros., of Parramatta, and John Lawler,
and we sell retail in the shop.
14415. About how much capital have you embarked in vour business ? About £780.
14416.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 397
14416. How much do you send out a week ? About £70 or £80 worth of stuff a week. Stih"'
i^no' 4nd b°W mUch do Jon reckcm ib costs Per weck to keeP each man ? About 8s. or 10s. a week. War HoP-
j 7" ??w much would il; take in Chiua to feed a mau aad !odge him in the same way ? Between 3s. ,„C^T^
and 4s. 9d. a week. 12 Dec, 1891.
144 19. And how much in China would a man working the same number of hours earn in a week ? Some
would get 16s. a week and their food.
14420. What is your opinion as to the position of working people in the two countries. Are your
SIIS?7?""1 any be,tter ofE here ? My own 0Pinioa i8 that they are better off here.
14421. 1 suppose that in your business you are making fair profits ? If make enough to coyer fairwages,
14422. What do you consider fair wages for yourself ? About £3 a week
\V^' £•? y°U a mar,ried man ? , Tes> and I have a Chinese wife living with me and one child— a little girl.
14424. Did you pay the poll-tax for her ? No ; there was no poll-tax when we came out. We have been
here tor thirteen years.
14425. Then having your wife here, I suppose you have no notion of saving money to go back to China ?
Well, 1 would like to make enough money to enable me to go home to see my old father and mother, and
then come back again to my wife in Australia.
14426. There is a strong feeling of affection among the Chinese for their parents, is there not ? Tes :
we all like to see the old people.
14427. And a large number of Chinese have gone home to China for that purpose, and come back again;
have they not ? Tes.
14428. So that if you saved money you would not give up this country, and go back and live permanently
in China i No. If I had my business here I would come back again.
14429. You think it is a very good country ? Yes.
14430. Mr. McKillop.] Whom are you in mourning for ? On the 20th of this month my mother died.
14431. Mr. Abigail.] Do you indulge in gambling ? No.
14432. Do you smoke opium ? No ; that is bad.
14133. Do you know anything about your countrymen living in a state of immorality with women?
Personally, I know nothing at all about it.
14434. You keep in your own home, I suppose ? I never go out.
14135. Have you not heard any conversation about it? The Chinamen do not care about talking of
things of that kind in front of me, because I am a straight man.
14436. Do you find competition in your own trade very keen ; — do your countrymen try to cut you
out ? Yes ; each man is looking after himself now.
14437. And, in consequence of that competition, you have had to reduce your prices ? Six or seven years
ago we got tip-top prices for our goods, but during the last two years we have got very low prices.
14438. Do you occasionally make cheap goods or inexpensive ones ? No; all good articles.
14439. You do not use any old packing-cases ? No.
14410. Do you know any of your countrymen who do use old packing-cases ? Yes ; two or three of them
get together and do it in Alexandria:
J4441. But the furniture that they make is all of a very poor character, I suppose? Yes.
14442. Are you connected with any other business ? I have an interest in a business in Elizabeth-street.
14443. What business is that ? A Chinese goods and grocery store.
14414. Have you anything to do with any lodging-house, or anything like that ? No.
14445. Nor with any syndicate of people who run gambling-houses ? No.
14146. Have you any fault to find with the laws of this country, or the way in which you have been
treated ? No ; I like it ; it is very good.
14447. You have never been interfered with by the police in any way ? No, I am on friendly terms with
everybody.
14448. Mr. Quong Tart.] I have known you for many years, and you are a very good and honest fellow,
I want to ask you this : Is it not a fact that two or three Chinese starting by themselves as cabinet-makers
have been making very inferior furniture ? Yes.
14449. If good Chinese cabinet-makers were to combine against these men would it not be much better
for them and for the Europeans ? Yes, it would be very good indeed for both sides.
14450. In China, as a rule, they work more by the daylight than they do by the clock ; — as soon as it is
light they begin to work ? They work a stated time, but those who are at Waterloo work all hours, even
by candle-light.
14451. Do your men work on Sundays ? No.
14452. Do you import anything from China ? No, I buy everything here.
14453. And the clothes you wear, you buy them here too ? Yes.
14454. It is not true that the Chinese bring all their clothes out here from China to work in ? No, the
workmen never wear those clothes. They might sleep in them, but they could not work in them.
14455. Is it not a fact that the workmen in your employ sponge their body all over, and even their feet,
before they go to bed ? Yes, every night they wash themselves with hot water.
14456. It has been said that a great deal of water is thrown down the sinks in the yards ? Yes, that is
through the amount of water they use in washing themselves.
14457. Are any of your men engaged in gambling-houses or opium-smoking ? No. 1 say that they may
go if they are bad. I would rather pay Is. or 2s. a week more to good men.
14458. If all the Chinese acted as you do there would be less gambling in the city ? If I had a child I
should like to bring him up to keep away from anything of tbe kind.
14459. You think that a great many Chinese have become too poor to go back to China ;— is that not
through their own fault— because they gamble and smoke so much ? Yes, entirely.
14460. We are doing our best to put a stop to opium-smoking and gambling ;— can you give us any sugges-
tion as to the best way of doing it ? Moral suasion will go a very long way with the opium-smoker, but
with regard to gambling I think it would be better for the Government to do something.
14461. Mr. Abigail.] Do you think that the use of opium could be made a means of betraying young
women ? Well, it is this way : A great deal rests with the girl herself. If you were to persuade her to
take it then she would take it, but you would have to persuade her first.
14462.
398 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Sun 141G2. Tes, but what I mean is this : Is it possible to make opium a means for seducing women by
■\\ar Hop. rendering them unconscious ? Tes, it makes them just as if they were drunk.
1-^^1891 lii63' Mr- Qmn3 Tart.] Tou know that I have been doing my best for some time to get rid of gambling
" eo'' ' and opium-smoking? Te3, I know you very well; you are a very good man.
14401. Mr. McKillop.] Is it not a fact that your countrymen live upon very little ? They do live upon
very little.
14465. Do they live on the smell of an oil rag ? Oh, no fear ; they get three meals a day.
14466. Do you feed your men well ? Tes, everybody likes good food.
14467. Do you pay your men weekly ? Tes, every week.
14468. Tou do not keep any of their money in trust ? No, very little ; sometimes a man leaves a pound
or two with me, but that is all, and I bank it for him, and lie gets the interest.
14469. Do you bank it in your own name, or in his name ? In my own name.
14170. How many hours a week do the men work ? Over sixty hours a week.
14471. Do they work on Sunday ? No.
14472. When do they start work in the morning ? As soon as it is light.
14473= Well, it is light at 4 o'clock now ? They would not get up at 4 o'clock ; they get up about half -past
5, and knock off about half -past 5 in the evening.
14474. What time have they for meals during the day ? A little more than half an hour for each meal.
14475. That is an hour altogether during the working hours ? Tes.
14176. Are those the hours worked throughout the whole of the Chinese cabinet-makers' premises ? Tes,
that is the rule ; they would not work more than that.
14477. Is it not a fact that in some of the Chinese cabinet factories men are seen polishing and sand-
papering on Sundays ? Not in my place, at all events.
14478. But you must have seen them doing it through the windows ? No.
14479. But when they are just starting business— before they are properly on their feet — do they not do
it ? Tes, if they are their own masters.
14480. Have you ever occasion to dismiss any of your employees for gambling or opium-smoking, or any
misconduct? Tes, sometimes, if they do not do what I tell them.
14181. Is all the work that you turn out of the very best quality ? Tes.
14482. Do you not deal in second-class furniture ? No, all I make is of the very best quality.
14183. Who are the Chinese who come here and open the gambling-dens — are they Hong Kong pirates,
or what ? They are men of this kind : If they see a thing they can bite by opening their mouths, they
do it.
14481. They are what we term sharpers ? Tes.
14485. Are there any Chinese informers in Sydney who speak good English, but make money by gambling ?
I never saw any, and never heard of any. I very seldom go out.
14486. Do you know Lee Kum and Pow Chee ? I do not know Lee Kum. I know Pow Chce a little.
14487. What sort of a character is he ? I do not know him well enough to express an opinion.
14488. Do you know Goldtown ? I have heard his name, but that is all. I have never had any dealings
with him.
14489. Do you know Long Pen ? No.
14490. What part of China do you come from ? I come from the big city in Canton.
14491. Do you belong to any secret society ? No.
14492. Not to the Loon Te Tong ? No.
14493. Have you subscribed to any of them without being a member ? No. I very often give £1 or £2 to
a. lame or blind old Chinaman, but that is all.
14494. What do they do with all the old Chinamen in Sydney ? I do not know.
14495. Do you not subscribe to any of the societies for taking your countrymen's bones back to China?
No, I do not.
14496. Is it not part of the religious duties devolving upon Chinamen to send their countrymen's bones
back ? Tes.
14497. How is it that a good Chinaman like you are ignores that duty ? I never had anything to do with
it, and never would have anything to do with it.
14498. But supposing you were to die who would send your bones back to China? When I am dead
and gone I do not know what happens, so that it does not matter to me what is done with my bones.
14499. Have you got any property in China ? Tes ; a little rice field, and a little business at home.
14500. Are you happy and contented in this Colony ? Tes ; I am very comfortable here.
14501. Have you ever been to any country town here — to Narrandera or Hay ? I have been to New-
castle— that is all.
14502. Are there a large number of Chinese there ? There are a few.
14503. -Do they all carry on a legitimate trade ? It is the same there as it is in Sydney.
14504. There are plenty of gambling- places there, are there not ? I never go to those kind of places, so
I cannot tell you.
MONDAY, 14 DECEMBEB, 1891.
^tesrent:—
The Mayor of Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
EEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Peesident.
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq,
JOHN STITAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Ellen , called and examined : —
Ellen 14505. President.'] Where do you live? In Exeter-place, Lower George-street.
,^s^^ 14506. How long have you resided there ? Two years and a half.
14 Dec, 1891. 14507. What age are you ? I am 23 years of age.
14508. Whom do you live with ? A Chinaman.
14309. Are there other Chinamen living in the house ? No ; there is no one else there.
14510. What rent do you pay ? Eleven shillings a week. 14511.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 390
14511. How many rooms have you ? Three. men ^^
iSq' u h° is y°"r landlord ? Mr- Hamilton, a saddler, living in Paddington ,— *— s
14*14 wJ6 y°U b6e* c°™tan% llvlng with this Chinaman ? Yes ; for about two and a half years. 1* D*>., 1891,
Jrijf? y,?U on the *7n before ? ?? ,5 X was at service. I have been with the Chinamen about
tnree and a naif years, or four years next May.
l*^1 When you left domestic service you went among the Chinese P Yes
ilri* 5°T Cam? y0U t0;d0 *hat ? A friend took me to them, that is all.
14ol7. Had you been seduced before ? Yes ; in Melbourne
14518. Were you seduced by a European ? Yes.
14519. Did he seduce you under promise of marriage? Yes
14520. And he broke his promise ? Yes
^t1ito^SX^^bOT™far'Sydne7,1 suppose? T left for the country' and afterwards
i S where did-y0U flr.st associate with the Chinese ? In Wexford-street.
J*®- -^ere 7°u m servlce then ? Yes ; I was at Captain Cuthel's, Woollahra.
14M4. ^ou say you went to the Chinese quarters with a friend of yours ; that was a female friend, I
suppose r Yes. J '
14525. What did she say to you when she took you there ? She told me to go for the Chinese. I cried
nrst and then I went.
Vtl 2* J£d she Promise that y°u would get plenty of money ? Yes.
14527. Did you start with opium-smoking ? No.
14528. Then after you left service you were introduced to the Chinese, and you had promiscuous inter-
course with them, and then you met with this particular Chinaman, is that it ? Yes; and I have been
with him since.
14529. Is he a sober man ? Yes.
14530. What trade does he follow ? Up till about six months ago he had been engaged in gardening, but
i? ZT ^rLStr°n£ enouSh for tb-at> and he now works a vegetable business in Campbell-street.
14531. Where did he work as a gardener ? At Cook's River, and he came in three times a week, on
market days.
14532. Did you see other .men when he was away ? JSTo ; I did not exactly see other men. They used to
come to my house sometimes, but very few.
14533. Generally speaking you have lived faithfully to this man ? Yes. For the last six months he has
been m the house altogether.
14534. Has he always treated you kindly ? Yes ; he has always been a very good man to me. I could
not wish for a better man.
14535. He has never desired you to go with other men for money ? No. He has always had constant
work.
14536. Do other Chinamen visit your house ? Yes ; sometimes.
14537. Do they ever bring women there ? No.
14538. No white people come to your house ? None whatever.
14539. In point of fact, you live with this man as faithfully as if you were married to him ? Yes.
14540. He earns his money now by selling vegetables ? Yes.
14541. Where does he get his vegetables ? He buys them in the Haymarket.
14542. Does he bring them home ? No ; he leaves them at the place in Campbell-street, where he has his
horse and cart.
14543. Do you smoke opium ? Yes ; I have smoked for two and a half years.
14544. What effect has it upon you ; does it render you unconscious ? No.
14545. Do you smoke much ? Yes ; I smoke about 3s. worth a day.
14546. And you say it never makes you unconscious ? No.
14547. Did it at first have that effect upon you ? No ; never from the first.
14548. What effect has it upon you ? None, only when you are opium-sick,
14549. Does it induce pleasant dreams ? No ; you cannot sleep at all till you have it.
14550. Does it not excite the imagination ? No.
14551. Then what delight is to be got from it ? None at all ; only when once you take to it you get the
habit, and then you have to have it.
14552. You have a craving for it ? Yes ; you have got to take it.
14553. Do you smoke away from your own house ? No.
14554. Does the man you are living with smoke ? Yes ; but he never approved of me smoking, but now
that the habit is on me of course he cannot help it.
14555. If men smoke opium does it affect their power with women ? Yes ; it does in one way.
14556. They have not the same desire for intercourse with women ? No ; they do not care about women.
14557. If you were lying down on a bunk smoking opium alongside a Chinaman who was also smoking
opium, the probability is that he would not care to have intercourse with you ? Not if be had the opium
habit he would not. The man who has the opium habit is not like another man ; — he does not care for
women.
14558. Are you satisfied with your husband being such an inveterate opium-smoker ? I cannot help it.
14559. I suppose the opium-smoking you indulge in prevents your caring for intercourse with men ?
Certainly.
14560. Who lives next door to your house ? A woman named Mrs.
14561. What is her means of living? She has one young girl living with her.
14562. What does the young girl do for a living ? She knocks about for a living ; but she does not take
anybody to that house. She pays £1 a week.
14563. Are there many Chinese living in your street ? There are not so many now. The Chinese that
are living there now are nearly all vegetable men.
14564. Are they opium-smokers as a rule ? No ; there are very few opium-smokers in our street at all.
14565. Have they any women living with them ? No ; there are no women going to the vegetable men's
houses at all. If they want women I suppose they go out for them.
14566. Do you know if the Chinese down there entice young girls to visit them? I have never seen
them.
14567. I suppose you have had opportunities of knowing it if it were so? Yes; I have had plenty
opportunities. 3 4568
400 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Ellen — '. 14568. The girls who go with the Chinese, in your opinion, are mostly those who have already fallen ?
14 Dec., 1891. 14569 Do know 0f any case wnere a comparatively pure girl has gone among the Chinese without
having first knocked about the town? I know of girls having been seduced while in service, but not by
the Chinese. I do not know of a single case of that kind.
14570. Have you always lived in the house you are now occupying since you took up with the Chinese ?
No ; I was living with another young woman before I had my own house. I was living at JSo. 16, next
door to Mrs. Short, about the third house from mine.
14-571. When you lived with that young girl were you with the same Chinaman ? Yes. _
14572. What did your friend do for a living ? Sometimes people came to see her. She is dead now.
14573. I suppose you know a good many young girls like yourself living with Chinamen ? I know a
good few.
14574. Do they lead a happy life? I have never seen a Chinaman ill-use a woman.
14575. Are they faithful to the Chinamen as a rule, or do they go in for prostitution as well ? A few
might.
14576. Do the Chinese turn you away when they are tired of you? I cannot say. In most cases it a
Chinaman has a quarrel with a woman he is living with and she tells him to go away he will go but
if he has been living with her for any length of time he will be sure to come back again.
14577. They do not abandon the women they have been living with for twelve months or two years for
younger ones ? I have never seen that.
14578. What age is the Chinaman you are living with ? He is 38.
1457P . Who had he living with him before you ? He did not live with any woman before.
1458J. Did he go among women at all ? I suppose he went with different women, but he never had a
woman constantly living with him before me.
14581. I suppose you visit your friends who live with Chinamen more or less? Yes.
14582. Are their houses clean and tidy ? Yes ; you always see all the Chinese women's houses clean and
comfortable.
14583. And are you well fed ? Oh, yes ; there is always plenty to eat and drink.
14584. What food do they use ? Well, the Chinese have their fashion of feeding, and the Europeans
have theirs.
14585. Do you live like an ordinary white woman ? Yes ; and my man does, too. He would just as soon
live European fashion as Chinese.
14586. You pay lis. a week rent ? Yes.
14587. What does it cost you to keep the house, outside the rent ? It costs about £2 altogether. I
spend more than that sometimes.
14588. Does that include what you spend in opium? Yes.
14589. So that it costs to keep your house about £2 10s. a week ? Yes ; from that to £2 12s. to £2 15s.
14590. Does he earn all that money ? Yes; sometimes more than that. He has good customers— all the
large schools.
14591. He goes out every day ? Yes.
14592. Where do you buy the opium ? At various stores.
14593. At what stores do you buy it ? I really do not know the names exactly. There are so many
different stores now.
14594. Where did you buy it last ? I do not know the name — it is in Wexford-street.
14595. How many doors from the corner of Elizabeth-street ? I do not know.
14596. You must tell the name ? I really do not know it — they call him " Fish."
14597. Where did you buy it before? I always bought it there.
14598. Who lives next door to the place where you bought the opium ? Ching War.
14599. How much do you buy at a time ? Sometimes Is. worth, and sometimes Is. 6d. worth, and some-
times more.
14600. I suppose all your friends who smoke opium get it at the same place ? No, not every one. Some
of them do.
14601. And in similar quantities ? No, not always. Some buy it in tins.
14602. Did you ever buy a tin ? Yes.
14603. How many ounces are there in a tin ? I do not know the quantity in a tin.
14604. What do you pay for it ? £1. '
14605. Mr. Quong Tart.] It is like a square cup ? Yes ; but it is not full— it is only half full.
14606. President.] Have the police ever visited your house since you went to live there ? Yes ; they
have come there, but not for any particular purpose. They haye come to ask about somebody, perhaps.
14607. Have you had visits from the inspectors of nuisances ? Yes.
14608. Have you ever been fined for having your premises unclean ? No.
14609. Your house is connected with the sewer, and your premises are quite clean ? Yes ; it is all right.
The inspector came a week before the Commission came, and told me that you were coming.
14610. Who told you ? The inspector of nuisances.
14611. Did you clean up your premises in consequence of that ? No ; my premises are always clean.
14612. Were the men in uniform who visited you ? Yes.
14613. There were two of them ? Yes.
14614. Is there any nuisance in your neighbourhood— I mean premises that give off bad smells as you
pass them ? Not that I am aware of. The inspector of nuisances is round once a fortnight, or three
weeks.
14615. Is it not a fact that Lascars from the mail-steamers visit your house ? No. I do not care about
that class of people.
14616. Is it not a fact that they visit the houses in your neighbourhood ? No ; there is not a girl with the
Chinese that cares about a dark fellow.
14617. Do not these Lascars go to some places in Wexf ord-street ? I do not know about Wexford-street,
but I do not think so.
14618. Have you not been in your friend's house in Wexford-street ? Yes ; but I never saw a dark man
there yet. I have seen a dark man in Steven-street. But I do not think the Chinese will sell opium to
them,, 14619.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 401
lUiln ^r th.e/-g0 ftr-rWomen or the °Piura ? There are no dark men after women in that place. Ellen —
l lfi9i ' a j 4.6*?«"-J How often during the day do you smoke opium ? Three times. *
that you must hUPP°Sp' ^^ ^ ^^ 1S apProachiuS ai whicn y°u generally take your smoke you feel 14 Dec-» M&l.
™!S K.f uPP°sinf .any°.ne were to prevent you getting at it, what would be your feelings ? I should he
very Dad. Sometimes it only makes you very tired.
T w! Ft* h°W l0nrSc after y°u have had your smoke does the effect remain in your system ? As soon as
I have a few pipes I feel all right again. J J
It^'fi^™ Tt TT dT J* ta^e t0 Put y°u Pr°Perly uuder the influence for the time being? It
S6l.frth f°r ^e time being, but I always smoke Is. worth.
14625. lhat would put you properly under the influence? Yes ; that would be enough until I wanted it
again. °
}f3%' ^ J?? n?t/a that. S,tate eyen Partially unconscious ? Not at all.
i Ifloe k v f 0t ?°A°- W1*h others ? It never makes anyone unconscious.
±4W8. mow listen to this and see if your experience tallies with this description of an official who visited
an opium-den :— W e tried all we could to awaken two girls who were lying under the influence of opium ;
there was a third lying on the same stretcher, who said it was no use trying, for they could not awaken for
some hours She said she was just getting ready. She said, ' They do what they like with us while we
are under the influence. I asked her if she could not refrain from it, and she said ' No, we cannot keep
away irom it. J- he way our women are used by those men is something beyond description." What
have you to say to that ? It is only nonsense. I have never seen anyone under the influence of opium
that way. It will not drug you.
?146™\ Are y°u 1Vite sure ? WeU' I carL sPeali for myself. I can smoke opium all day and night too. and
it will have no such effect upon me.
14630. Do you think it possible that the girls referred to here were drugged by drink? I think it is
more likely that they were drugged by drink than opium.
14631. Have you never heard it stated that the Chinese induce young girls to visit their places, and that they
then drug them with opium and seduce them ? No ; I have never heard of it. The Chinese as a rule do
not care about women smoking opium. It is the only fault they find with them— the opium-smoking.
The Chinese do not approve of women smoking at all.
14632. I suppose that is for the reason you have stated, that the effect of opium-smoking is to take away
all desire for sexual intercourse ? I suppose so. It makes a woman quite different from what she is
before she smokes it.
14033. And you are quite sure it is not true that anyone could, as stated here, do what they liked
with a person under the influence of opium ? I am quite sure it is not true. I never heard of anything
like it yet.
14631. Is it a rule that persons who smoke opium do not care for drink ? Tes ; as a rule they do not
care for drink. It would never do for the two things to go together.
14635. Do you smoke the ashes of your opium ? Yes ; I save the ash and sell it.
14636. How much do you get for the ash ? From 1 5s. to £1 per lb. It depends upon the price of opium.
14637. "What do they do with 'this ash ? They make what they call second opium of it.
14638. Do they then sell it for a less price, as opium of inferior quality ? No ; those heavy smokers up
country buy it. They boil it and mix it with good opium to make double the quantity.
14639. That is practising imposition, is it not? No; they do not sell it in that way. It is for their
own use.
14640. Do they buy a great quantity of this ash ? Yes ; a great deal of it is used up country.
14641. How long would you be saving £1 ? Sometimes two weeks, and other times three weeks, or if
nobody comes in it might take a month.
14642. How much does your husband smoke ? When he is working he only smokes Is. worth a day. He
has to go out with the carts, and therefore has no time to smoke in the day.
14643. Does not opium-smoking render you unfit for work ? No ; as soon as I have a smoke I am all
right.
14644. Does it not affect your appetite ? No ; I can eat far better than I could before. Of course when
you have the " habit " it affects your appetite, but when it is finished you can eat well enough.
14645. What is the first effect of smoking opium ? Sometimes it will be twelve months before it will
make you sick ; that is when the habit comes on you ; sometimes it will be for a few weeks.
14646. What time in the day do you smoke ? At about 3 or 4 o'clock. Sometimes I may smoke at 1 or
2 o'clock.
14647. You have no settled time ? Oh, yes ; it all depends upon what time I go to bed. If I go to bed
early I get up early, and commence to smoke sooner. If I have my last smoke at 2 o'clock in the
morning, for instance, I will want one at 2 o'clock in the afternoon of the same day. I may have another
between 6 and 7 in the evening, and then I do not want another smoke until night.
14648. Supposing you were to go to sleep ? I do not go to sleep until I have my smoke. If I were to
wake up in the night without having had it I should be worse still.
14649. In fact you are a slave to the habit ? That is about it.
14650. Would it not be better for you to break yourself of the habit ? It might be better for me to
break off a certain amount, but if I were not to smoke I daresay I should be on the streets. I have no
desire to go out now.
14651. It kills all lustful inclination ? Yes.
14652. Mr. Quong Tart.] Do you not consider opium-smoking a great evil ? It is in one way, I suppose.
It is right enough in another way.
14653. If you once take to opium-smoking you cannot do without it ? No ; you must constantly take it.
14654. Do you not find, as a rule, that the Chinese who smoke op;um are lazy, sluggish, and cannot do
heavy work ? In some cases where they are heavy smokers. My man has been a smoker for twelve years,
but he is not what you would call a heavy smoker.
14655. Do you know that most of the Chinese who live on gambling are opium-smokers ? Yes ; there
are a good few of those who gamble who are also opium-smokers. Those who are opium-smokers are a
little lazy, as a rule.
272-3 E 14656.
403 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Ellen 1-1656. Then it must be bad, is it not ? It is in one way ; but it keeps a person quiet.
f-~-^~» 14,657. Could not you keep quiet without that ? Not with me ; I have been far quieter since 1 toon to it.
14 Dec, 1891. 14658. You turn the day into night, do you not ? I usually sleep till about 12 o clock.
14659. When you go away to another place, what do you do ? 1 take some ym cheo with me, ana when
I want it, I put it in my mouth and eat it, and drink some water. . . .
14660. Is not that very injurious ? No ; it is right enough for a smoker ; of course it would be very bad
for those who do not smoke. , .
14661. Do you understand how to prepare the opium ? Tes ; I thoroughly understand it.
14662. How came you to understand it ? I learnt it myself. . .
14663. Is there not some difficulty in making it ? None ; you have only to look at someone making it.
14664. Mr. Hawthorne.] What time do you go to bed at night ? Sometimes at 2 o clock, sometimes at
3 o'clock. I am a great reader. I generally finish my smoke about half-past 1 or 2 o clock.
14665. Do you make it a rule to have your smoke at half -past I or 2 o'clock ? I finish about that time.
14666. I suppose your husband has to get up early to go out with the vegetables ? Yes ; usually ho has.
14667. Then, as you are not up until 12 o'clock, he has to prepare his own meals f JNo ; he goes to a
Chinese cookshop in the morning.
14668. And you do no housework until after 12 o'clock ? No.
14669. Is that the custom of females who live with the Chinese ? No ; it depends on what- —
14670. Are there many others who keep the same late hours as yourself? Yes ; a tew. borne oi them
stop up later. . ,
14671. Many women living with Chinese about your quarter, who are heavy smokers ot opium, do not
go to bed at all at night ? Some of them. I know one of the young women who were here last lhursday
goes to bed at 12 o'clock. .
14672. Was that the tall girl ? No. She goes to bed late ; sometimes between 4 and 5 m the
morning.
14673. You said just now that you were a great reader? Yes.
14674. What kind of literature do you go in for ? Novels.
14675. Are your parents living ? My mother is living in Tasmania ; my father is dead.
14676. Is your mother a woman of respectable position in society? Yes; she is of respectable position.
She married again.
14677. Have you any brothers and sisters ? Yes ; I have one brother and three sisters.
14678. Are your sisters married ? Yes.
14679. To Europeans ? Yes ; and all occupying respectable positions. One is in the gas-works, one has
a jeweller's shop, and the other a boot-shop.
14680. Do you have any correspondence with them ? No ; not since I have been with the Chinese.
14681. And they know nothing about your mode of living ? No.
14682. I suppose you feel ashamed to keep up a correspondence with them ? I would not think of such
a thing.
14683. Have you quite made up your mind to live your present life continually? No. I intend, in a
few years' time, when I can get a few matters settled, to leave the Chinese, and go to see my mother ;
that is, if I am not married. But I think of getting married to the Chinaman I am with at the Chinese
new year.
14684. Then you cannot have much idea of abandoning your present mode of life if you contemplate
marriage with your present associate within a few months ? No. I might go home to see mother in a
few months, but I should return to him again.
14685. You have never let your people know where you are ? No. They have not heard from me for
six years. They must think I am dead.
14686. None of your family, except yourself, have gone in for a degraded life ? No.
14687. Your fall, in the first instance, was through being seduced by a European in Melbourne ? Yes.
My people knew of that.
14688. And after you came to Sydney did you take up with the Chinese, simply because a female friend
of yours induced you to go among them ? Yes. I was a stranger in Sydney.
14689. What was your object ; — was it to prevent your going on the streets as a common prostitute ? No.
14690. Previous to your going among the Chinese had you gone in for prostitution ? No.
14691. Where did you travel to after you left Melbourne? I went to service in the country districts. I
was at Beechworth and Albury, and from there I came to Sydney. I was in a home, a religious house in
Sydney.
. 14692. During these years of service did you conduct yourself respectably ? Yes.
14693. Until you went with this girl to the Chinese quarters were you leading a virtuous life ? Yes.
14694. Where did you first meet the Chinaman you first had connection with ? . In a European house.
Chinaman was brought there.
14695. Was it a house of ill-fame ? Yes.
14696. Did your female friend keep this house ? No.
14697. It was a house frequented by other girls of questionable character? Yes.
14698. Did you meet anyone there at the time? No. Only the man who kept the house. The house
was kept by an Englishman.
14699. Who was the woman that introduced you? She was called ; she is living in the
Church Home now.
14700. Have you been asked to go into any of these homes ? Yes.
14701. Have you ever gone ? I went once, about four years ago.
14702. How long did you remain there ? Five months— that was before I went with the Chinaman.
14703. What did you go to the Church Home for ? Because I was a stranger in Sydney. It was in the
Church Home that I picked up with this woman I have spoken of.
14704. She was actually an inmate of the Home while you were there? Yes.
14705. Has it come to your knowledge that other females have become contaminated by mixing with
women of that character in some of these Homes ? Ye^, I have heard of a good few, meeting with older
people, and being led astray.
14706. How long was it after this visit of yours to the house where you had intercourse with the Chinese
that you took up with the present man you are living with ? About one year and six months.
14707.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 403
14707. What kind of life were you leading during that time ? 1 had a house of my own, and had two Ellen-
girls living with me. They paid me £1 a week each. J r~^^~s
2' £•!■ theJ live »y prostitution ? Yes ; but they brought no one to my house. ™ Dec, 1891.
14709. Did you carry on prostitution ? No. J
1 Jn?' ?id^n0t T7 Europeans visit your house ? No. I had a house in Woolloomooloo at the time.
Z mnJh« Jt? 7- °iU m • 'IT glrlf- pa-d you for eiShteen months ? Eor ^elve months. I was
six months ot the time laid up with rheumatics in my head
northefway11686 ^ ^ *** t0 T°Ur h°US6 ? N° '' they mignt fetch a man to sleeP a11 niSht but in
]11H' I°\hQW f?m thT f1 • Week eacn> for their board and lodg^g ? Yes.
\£fc mi y°U W **, ^ tlm-6 thaJ y°? Were livinS on the Prostitution of these girls ? Tes.
«™l; „Sly T T^^r' ll0# l°ng does y°ur smoke last as a ™le ? Sometimes I might
n?9 nVlnMr ^' ?* BOm^m« tw0 ^™- E I start at 11 o'clock, I can finish altogether at half-past 1
or ^ o clock— that is, smoking 6d.-worth of opium.
iif+W ^°U ^ qUitC Cei"jain thcat |Uring the time y°u are smoking you are quite conscious, and know
liVft it ?.Tg T ar°Und 7°? \ YeS'J have m? senses aDout me ^ ^ same as I have now.
14717. It it has been asserted that a Chinaman or anyone else could take advantage of a female while
^iMq a ^ influence of opium, that according to you would be untrue ? It is quite untrue.
14718 And you are quite certain that if you had had your two hours' smoke of opium you would
be quite capable of assenting or dissenting to any proposals that might be made to you? Tes ; iust the
same as I am now. J ' J
14719. Who prepares your pipe? I can prepare it myself, but sometimes my husband does it for me,
and sometimes I do it for him.
14720. How much does your husband give you for housekeeping purposes ? He gives me £2 or £2 10s.
a week, perhaps more. If he makes more he gives me more.
14721. Does it take all that to keep the house going ? There is lis. rent to pay, then there is food, and
faring, and cigarettes.
14722. How much does it cost you altogether for smoke, including cigarettes ? Sometimes it costs
£1 10s. a week.
14723. How much of opium and of cigarettes do you smoke per day ? I smoke 2s. 6d. or 3s. worth of
opium and 9d. of cigarettes.
14724. How much per day does your husband smoke ? He only smokes Is. worth of opium because he
only smokes at night.
14725. Then your smoking costs you something like 30s. a week, and that leaves you only £1 a week to
live on, including rent ? I do not eat much.
14726. Does it take your appetite away ? No.
14727. Do you use chop-sticks ? No ; I eat like a European. My husband eats like his own country-
men in the cookshops, but when he is with me he eats like a European.
14728. Have you ever had any children ? Tes; one. It is dead.
14729. Was that to the man with whom you are living ? Tes.
14730. Did you never have any children previous to that ? Tes ; I had one in Melbourne by the
European that seduced me. It is alive now, and with my sister.
14731. Had your sister any children of her own ? Tes ; three.
14732. And she is rearing your child ? Tes.
14733. Mr. McRillop.'] Do you know a girl named ; she lived with a girl named ?
Tes ; she is up country.
14734. How long is it since she left ? Last Tuesday.
14735. Is she in the habit of making trips into the country? Tes.
14736. She goes through the Chinese camps ? No. There is up country one man who constantly keeps
her.
14737. When she comes to Sydney how long does she stop ? She stops about three months.
14738. Who keeps her when she is in Sydney ? The man who keeps her in Sydney is a cook.
14739. Is it not a fact that she goes on the street as a prostitute ? Not to my knowledge. She might
have done when the man she lives with in Sydney was not working.
14740. And what about this other girl ? She has a man to keep her.
14741. Has she left for the country too ? No.
14742. Does she intend going, do you know ? I believe so.
14743. Do you know of any serious case of disease existing through women cohabiting with the Chinese ?
Not amongst the Chinese, to my knowledge.
14744. Have you heard of any such cases ? Not lately.
14745. How long since is it that you heard of any such cases ? It is a long time since I heard of a case
of disease.
14746. Mr. Abigail.'] Are Chinamen clean as a rule? Tes; as a rule they are very clean. And they
take care that a woman is too. If she is not clean they will not live with her.
14747. Are there not a number of houses of ill-fame in Wexford-street ? I do not know.
14748. Is it not a fact that there are certain houses in Exeter-place where girls take men for the purpose
of sexual intercourse ? Not to my knowledge. I believe there is in Wexford-street, but not in Exeter-
place.
11749. Tou have said that opium-smoking prevents you sleeping ;— if that is so, how do you get on ? It
prevents anyone sleeping when the habit is on them. If you go to bed, and are asleep, if it is time for
you to smoke you will wake up — you cannot sleep. Eor instance, I go to bed at 2 o'clock, and get up at
12 o'clock next day. I cannot sleep over that time. I must get up and smoke.
14750. Do you sleep heavily for that time ? No ; if you came to my door and gave one knock, I could
hear you.
14751. And you wake regularly when the time comes for you to have your pipe ? Tes.
14752. Have you had a fairly good education ? No ; not very good.
14753. In what kind of service were you engaged before you took up with your present mode of life ? I
worked as cook, and laundress, and housemaid, and in one or two public-houses that I was in I acted as
barmaid. 14754,
40t CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Ellen 14754. Was Captain Cuthel's the onlv place you were employed in in Sydney ? Yes.
•— -*- — v 14755. Where did you meet this girl who introduced you to the Chinese ? I got the situation from the
.14 Dec, 1891. Church Home, and this woman came to sec me where I was employed. ,
14756. And you have since found out that she was really a kind of decoy to bring respectable girls down
to a state of prostitution ? Yes.
14757. I suppose there are a good many characters of the kind in Sydney ? Yes ; plenty ot them.
14758. Is this girl back in the Home again ? I could not say ; it is fully three years since I saw her
there. I heard the other day that she was in the Church Home, but I have not seen her. I know she
was there two years ago. She goes there and stops for years at a time. She is a good worker, and they
try to keep her there.
14759. Mr. Abigail] Have you heard of her taking other girls besides you to this place you have told us
of ? I have heard of it, but I cannot say what truth there may have been in it.
14760. When you visited this house of ill-fame did you know it was a house of that character? No ; I
had never been in one before.
14761. She took you there under the pretence that this person was a friend of hers ? Yes.
14762. Was the Chinaman there when you arrived ? No ; the Chinaman was a friend of hers. On the
second day he came in by himself. She told me to go with him.
14763. And you did go with him ? Yes ; I did.
14764. I suppose she told you it was better than hard work— that you would get plenty of money and
jewellery, and so forth ? Yes.
14765. Mr. Quong Tart.] Do you know any of the Chinese informers— do you know Pow Cheer' Yes ;
he is a schoolmaster.
14766. Do you know Long Pen ? Yes.
14767. Is he considered to be a Chinese informer ? Yes.
14768. Mr. McKillop.] Do you know Miss ? Yes ; she lives near my place.
14769. You have said that a person who smokes opium does not drink ;— is it not a fact that she drinks
heavily and smokes opium too ? I cannot say.
14770" I saw her put away half a tumbler of rum when we were there ;— is it not a fact that soma girls do
drink heavily and smoke opium too ? I cannot say. It is not so with the persons I am acquainted with.
14771. You know I suppose that there are certain girls in the country who make quarterly or half-yearly-
visits to the Chinese camps in the country, for the purpose of making lots of money by prostitution?
Yes, plenty of them.
14772. Do you know whether they come down with big cheques from these trips ? Yes ; they sometimes
come down with a pretty good sum of money.
[The witness withdrew.]
Margaret called and examined : —
Margaret 14773. President.] Where do you reside ? In Exeter-place.
/— ^jv-«-n 14774. How long have you resided there ? Two years.
14 Dec, 1891. 14775. Are you living with a Chinaman ? I was living with one ; I am not now.
14776. Until recently you were living with a Chinaman ? Yes ; with one — the father of my children.
14777. How long had you been living with him ? Five years.
14778. What is your age now ? Twenty-three.
14779. So that when you were eighteen years of age you went to live with a Chinaman ? Yes.
1 1780. What were you doing before that ? I was a dressmaker.
14781. I suppose before you went to live with the Chinese you were seduced by a European ? Yes.
14782. Did you have any children by him ? No.
14783. Were you employed as a dressmaker when you were seduced ? Yes.
14784. How did you come to have intercourse with this Chinaman ? I came to Sydney and got into
trouble, and a young girl who knew me came to the gaol with a Chinaman, who paid the fine, and
released me.
14785. What did you get into trouble about ? Through assaulting another girl.
14786. Did you live with the Chinaman subsequently who paid your fine ? No.
14787. What did you do for him to induce him to pay your fine ? Nothing ; I never saw him before.
14788. Then he paid the fine because he knew your friend, I suppose ? Yes.
14789. Did you go immediately to meet the Chinaman ? I went to Lower George-street, to a place kept
by Sam Ee ; he was a gambler then ; I do not know what he is now.
14790. Did you then meet this Chinaman with whom you have been living ? No ; I went to see the
other one. I stopped there a couple of days, and went away again.
14791. Is the man you have been living with kind to you ? Yes.
14792. He treats you well ? Yes ; up to the last four or five months.
14793. What are the ages of the children you have had by this man ? The eldest is five years, the next
will be three on the 25th February, and the youngest is twelve months.
14794. Up to the last four or five months you say that he has been all that you could desire — how is it
that you left him ? I left him because I cannot agree with him. He has a bad temper and so have I.
14795. How do you support your children? He gives me money to support my children. My sister in
Balmain has one of them.
14796. You have nothing to complain of in that respect ? Nothing at all.
14797. Is it a fact that he has objected to your going with other men ? Yes.
14798. Is not that really the cause of his quarrelling with you ? No ; it was through the opium we
had rows.
14799. As a matter of fact, you do go with other men when he is away, I suppose? I can get money
enough to keep me without going with other men.
14800. But you might get more, you know ? I never bother about more.
14801. Then his jealousy is unreasonable ? Yes ; if he sees me speaking to anyone he kicks up a row
with me.
14802. How many rooms are there in the house in which you live ? Six rooms. I had two of them —
one room and the kitchen. 14803.
CHTXESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 405
14803. What rent do you pay? Seven shillings a week. Margaret— —
14804. Did you and the Chinaman and the children all live in the one room ? No. One of the children -T^T
lie™ : ww n' and * paid 10s- a week for the kesP of the Httlc one that was here with me this morning. 14 Dec, 1891.
i^oIvt' wi 0(icuPatlon does the Chinaman follow with whom you were living ? He is a cook.
ilS™ wu 7.T h® !iye ? Up countrJ. at Penrith, and other places he has been.
itano ww PenIlth how oftrfn did he come to visit you ? Once a week, on Saturday night.
14809. What wages does he get ? Thirty-five shillings a week
™fi?" weSle f VeJ°U aU t!?e m0ne^ ? No ! he 8iTCS me £1 a week.
JfoJo wu8 tluj' Bufficient to keep you ? No ; I had other money.
14812. Where did you get it from ? From a half-caste Chinaman, called Dick Shampoo, at Hay. I was
T^t Ww £lm b-ef°re- So,netlmes he sends me £2, and sometimes £1 a week.
14812. Me bas given you money from time to time ? Yes.
14813. Are the premises you live in clean ? Yes
1!^!' ^h?,is thf.landlord ? A coloured man, named Young.
14815. Do the police visit the house ? No.
li8},6H ?xave y0U seetl the insPeetor of nuisances there ? Yes.
14817. Do you smoke opium ? Yes.
14818. When did you contract the habit of smoking opium ? When I came out of prison I went to
Lower George-street first.
liSHh Is it a fact that opium-smoking will make you so unconscious that you do not know what people
are doing to you ? No. It has never done so to me.
iiiso?' wi? always know what mcn are doin8' about you ? Of course. It never made me stupid at all.
14821. When you go to smoke opium do you leave your own place for a regular opium-smoking house?
14822. And do you lie down alongside of any man that may be there ? It is a female that makes it
tor me.
11823. Have you never laid down on one of these opium bunks where the men lie that smoke opium
i!elv j It-1S Verjr se^om * see a man m tne place where I smoke. The only one I have seen is the man
she lived with, who works at a garden, and is very seldom there. I make it for the woman who keeps
the place, and she makes it for me.
14824. You have never laid alongside a man smoking opium ? I have where men have been smoking
opium, but not lately.
11825. Have they ever desired to have connection with you when they have finished smoking ? No.
11826. Does the habit of opium-smoking in men kill the desire for sexual intercourse ? Nobody has said
anything to me like that.
14827. AVhat have you been doing for a living during the five or six months that you have been living
apart from your Chinaman ? I have been getting something from him for the support of his two children,
and also something from my friend at Hay.
11828. Is it not a fact that you have taken to prostitution to obtain money since you left him ? No.
14829. Have you never had intercourse with men since you left that Chinaman ? No ; none at all.
14830. Can you swear that positively ? lean.
14831. You left him, did you not ? Yes ; but I have seen him every day.
14832. Where do you see him ? In his own place in Wexford-street.
11833. Does he desire you to go back ? Yes.
14834. And will you not go back ? No ; I will not.
14835. Do you rely upon this man in Hay keeping you ? Yes.
14836. Does he send money to you regularly ? Yes ; he very seldom neglects to send it once a fort-
night.
14837. When did you see him last ? Six months ago. He has been away shearing.
14838. Does he send you this money to keep children you have had by him ? No.
14839. Did you never have any children by him ? No.
14840. When did you hear from him last ? Last Saturday.
14842. Where was he then ? At Bungagee Station, near Hay.
14843. Mr. McKillopi] Do you know ? Yes, she is up country.
14844. When did she leave ? She left last Tuesday.
14845. Used she to reside with a girl named Buckley ? Yes.
14816. And was living with a Chinaman ? Yes.
14847. Is it not a fact that and get their living by prostitution ? I cannot say.
14848. You have lived close to them ? Yes, but I do not know their business.
14S49. How much opium do you smoke ? About 2s. or 2s. 6d. worth a day.
14850. How many years have you been smoking opium ? Five years.
14851. What part of the Colony are you a native of ? Young.
14852. Are your parents there ? Yes ; that is, my mother is, but my father is dead.
14853. Have you any brothers or sisters ? I have four sisters and one brother a good distance out of
Young, on a station.
14854. How long is it since you have seen them ? Over six years.
14855. Does your mother know the life you are leading now ? No.
14856. Have you ever corresponded with your people ? No.
14857. Where did you learn dressmaking ? In Young.
14858. Did you come to Sydney to follow your trade as a dressmaker ? No.
14859. Where were you seduced — in the same town you were born in ? Yes.
14860. Did you pick up with any Chinamen in Young ? No.
14861. How did you come to Sydney ? I came with another young girl.
14862. Was she of loose character ? Yes.
14863. Did she not entice you to Sydney ? She paid my fare.
14864. Was she an old Sydney hand ? Yes.
14865. How old was she ? Twenty-three or twenty-four when I knew her.
J ' 14866.
406 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Margaret 14866. What is her name ? Ellen ; I have not seen her for four years. She left me when she
' A-^~>> brought mc down here.
14 Dec, 1891. i4§67. Where did she take you when she brought you down ? We stayed at a lodging-house. She used
to pay for our bed at night. Then I got into trouble for hitting a girl.
14868. A\rere you on the streets then? No. I was clown here about a month when I went into a
tobacco factory. I used to go to a dance, and I had a row with a girl, and struck her with a tumbler.
For that I was fined £8, or four months.
14869. Were you drunk ? No. I did not know what drink was. It was in a temper. She struck me
first. A young girl named brought a Chinaman up in a cab, and he paid the fine.
14870. And that was the first step you took towards living with the Chinese ? Tes.
14871. Did you carry on with any European while you were living with the Chinamen? When I was
living with the Chinese a European would take me to a dance occasionally.
14872. Where was the dance ? In Essex-street.
14873. You were never married ? No.
14S74. Did you have any children by the European ? No.
14875. But you have had three by a Chinaman ? Yes.
14876. Did he ever offer to marry you ? Yes ; and I refused.
14877. Do you know of any serious cases of disease being contracted by girls living with Chinamen ? No.
14878. Are the Chinese clean as a rule, so far as freedom from disease is concerned ? I cannot say.
14879. You can speak of those you have been in the habit of having sexual intercourse with ? I have
never experienced anything to the contrary.
14880. Do girls that smoke opium also drink liquor ? I never saw a heavy opium-smoker drink.
14881. Are you a heavy smoker ? No ; I cannot say I am a heavy smoker; 2s. 6d. a day is not much.
14882. What would you consider heavy opium-smoking ? 5s. worth a day would be heavy.
14883. Do you know any white girl that smokes to that extent ? Yes ; I have known them in different
parts ; — not in Exeter-place.
14884. Where do they live ? I cannot tell you where they live. They go to Goulburn-street to smoke.
I am only repeating what they tell me.
14885. Do you ever go to an opium-smoking den in G-oulburn-street ? No.
14886. And you say opium-smoking does not make you stupid ? No; it does not.
14887. Is it not a fact that girls have been made stupid by smoking opium ? It may be.
14888. When did you first take to smoking opium ? When I came out of gaol.
14889. When you took up with the Chinaman ; was it at his invitation ? No ; it was the girl
14890. Have you had a fair education ; — did you attend the Public Schools ? No; I attended the Catholic
School in Young.
14891. Are there any Chinese informers living in Exeter-place? That is more than I know.
14892. Do you know Long Pen ? No.
14893. Or Paw Chee ? No.
14R94. You know nobody ; — is that it ? I do not know them.
14S95. Is it not a fact that in your street there are several houses kept for purposes of prostitution ? I
have never seen them.
, 14896. Do you not know a house of that kind where bad girls are living a little higher up, and near
where Miss lived ? I am not outside all day. I do not know what is going on in the streets.
14897. Are you living alone ? No ; I live with another girl in Exeter-place. There are only two of us
and my little girl. The girl's husband comes in three times a week — that is, the man she is living with.
14898. Is he a Chinaman ? Yes ; he has a garden at Auburn.
14899. Where had you been living with the Chinaman for the last five years ? In Wexford-streei.
14900. Where did you pick up with the half-caste man who is now in Hay ? I went to school with him
at Young.
14901. Is he a native of Young? Yes.
14902. Did you have any connection with him in Young? No.
14903. Where did you next see him ? In Hay.
14904. How came you to go there ? I went up to see him. He sent for me ; but that was after I began
living with the Chinaman.
14905. After you left Young, where was the next place you saw this half-caste ? In Armidale, where I
went with the father of my children. I went first to Newcastle, then to other places, and finally Armidale,
where I met mv old school-mate, the half-caste, who had a blacksmith's shop there. I had a row with the
man 1 was living with, and went to live with the half-caste.
14906. As his wife ? Yes ; but he left there and went to Hay, and I went to Tingha with my children's
father. Then I left him again, and went to Young, where f stayed a fortnight, and then went back t8
Hay again, where the half-caste was.
14907. How long did you stay there ? Two months, and then I went to Sydney.
14908. There is a large Chinese camp in Hay, is there not ? Yes.
14909. About how many Chinese are there ? About 400 or 500.
14910. Are there many European women there ? Yes, a good few, all old hands from Sydney, and all
opium-smokers. The police took a lot of them up, and those who stayed had to marry the Chinamen.
14911. How long ago is that? About eighteen months ago.
14912. And those who remained were given the option of marrying the Chinamen ? Yes.
14913. In the Chinese camp at Hay were there not some horrible scenes enacted among the Chinese with
white women ? I did not live in the camp.
14914. Did you hear of anything of the kind ? No, I did not.
14915. You did not live at the camp ? No ; I lived at a store.
14916. Did you live with the half-caste ? Yes ; we lived in two or three rooms at the back.
14917. You never had any children by him ? No.
14918. When you left him there you came to Sydney ? Yes. He went up country shearing, and I got out
a summons against the father of my children for him to contribute to their maintenance. I have seen
him every day since, and have smoked with him, and so on.
14919. You have had intercourse with him ? Yes ; when I got the summons out he asked me not to go
against him, and he paid me for the children. 14919|.
CHINESE GAMBLINft COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 407
14919^. Has he ever ill-treated you ? No. Margaret — .
14920. He has always been kind to you ? Tes. / — »~^-^
14921. Do you know of any cases like your own, where respectable girls have been waylaid and decoyed 14 Dec, 1891.
by girls of low and more experienced in vice, and brought down to the Chinese quarters — have any such
cases as that come within your personal knowledge ? No.
14922. Have you any acquaintances who have told you that their virtue has been taken away in that
manner ? I would not take any notice of what they say ; they sometimes say things they do not really
mean.
14923. Do you take regular trips up country ? No.
14924. Have you never left Sydney since the last time you came down from Hay ? No.
14925. What house is it where you go to smoke opium ? I go to Ellen 's place.
14926. Do you pay her for the opium ? No ; the father of my children buys it for me ; and I take it
to her place and smoke it. She mixes it for me and I mix it for her.
14927. "What do you do with the ash ? Sell it. You can get from 15s. to £1 for a lb. I have seen it as
high as 22s. 6d. per lb.
14928. How long does it take you to sell a pound? I could not tell you. I have never noticed. It
takes a lot to weigh a pound. I never save it myself, when I smoke in my friend's house.
14929. Do you intend to pick up with this Chinaman again whom you have been living with— the father
of your children ? No.
14930. Do you intend to leave Sydney ? Not yet awhile.
14931. Is it your intention to lead a different life ? I am going to bo married at Christmas.
14932. To whom ? To the half-caste I was living with at Hay.
14933. Is it not possible for you to give over opium-smoking ? I have tried.
14934. Did you succeed ? No, there was too much of it about. When you see it, and want it, you must
have it.
14935. But if you were away from these dens you would, I suppose, be able to gradually break yourself
of this habit ? Tes, I intend to knock it off at Christmas.
14936. Supposing you broke yourself of smoking opium, do you think you would take to drinking spirits?
No ; I never did drink anything much.
14937. You never had a liking for it ? No.
14938. This opium-smoking has a terrible power over you when you take to it ? Yes. It is very hard to
knock it off, although there are Chinamen who have been smoking for twenty years and have knocked it off:
14939. Does opium-smoking have a tendency to make a person lustful ? No. It makes them the other
way. They have no inclination at all, when they smoke, very heavy.
14940. If anybody has stated that opium-smoking has the effect of making people stupid, so that they do
not know what they are doing, or what is being done to them, do you think that would be true ? No.
It is not true. It has never done so with me.
14941. It has not the same effect as drink ? No.
14942. What is the effect on you — does it produce pleasant dreams ? No. I have not experienced that.
14943. What does it produce — sickness ? It does if I_do not have a smoke.
14944. Does it spoil your appetite ? No. I cannot eat anything at all until I smoke.
14945. How often do you smoke in the day ? Twice a day.
"14946. I suppose you must be regular with the pipe, otherwise it will make you sick and languid ? Yes.
14947. Are there a large number of girls in that portion of the town who smoke opium ? Yes a good few.
14948. Are there any white men visiting these places to smoke opium ? None at all.
14949. Are there any Lascars or Coolies ? No. They do not go to that end of the town at all.
14950. The Commission have seen eight or nine of them in one place in Wexford-street ? I have not
seen them. I do not go into any place in Wexford-street, but one. That is where I was living.
14951. Now, is it not a fact that half the houses in Wexford-street are houses of ill-fame? There are a
few pf them there.
14952. Do the police ever take any notice of these things down there ? They are always in and out of
the places.
14953. Do you visit any gambling-place ? No.
14954. Have you ever gambled in your life ? No.
14955. Did you ever take any chances in the pak-ah-pu lottery? Yes. I used to buy the tickets.
14956. Did you buy them to any large extent ? I used to buy the 6d. tickets.
14957. Did you mark them yourself ? Yes.
14958. Did you ever win anything ? I won 9s. 2d. That was the most I ever won.
14959. Mr. Quong Tart.] You say a young woman first brought you down to Sydney from Young ? Yes.
14960. Did she ever receive any benefit from you ? No.
14961. With regard to opium-smoking, do not you think it will injure your health if you persist in it ?
It has never interfered with my health. _ _
14962. You have had good opportunities of judging of the Chinese m Sydney. Do you think the best
class of them are opium-smokers— say the merchants ? I do not know about the merchants.
14963. Now, complaints have been made against the Chinese that they entice young girls from their
homes' and seduce tbem. Do you think from your experience that there is much truth in that ? I do not
believe that. The Chinese cannot make them go if they do not want to.
14964 Mr Abigail] You have never heard of a case where a young girl has been entrapped into a
Chinese house and betrayed or seduced ? No. I never heard of a case of that kind. No one could
make them go if they did" not want to go. _
14965 Mr Quong Tart.] When once you begin to smoke opium you must have it at a regular hour of
the day, is it not so ? Not exactly a regular hour, but if you use yourself to have it twice a day you look
■P " +
14966. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you have regular hours of the day at which you smoke? Yes. I have lost
the best part of to-day.
14967. Do you feel the effects of it ? Yes.
14968. What do you do supposing you are travelling away to Newcastle or further? 1 will show you.
[Producing a large brown pill.] I take this. . .-
14969. Mr. Abigail.] What is that you have shown us ? That is opium. [li.jij.
408 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Margaret 14970. Tou take it in that form when you cannot get a smoke ? Tes ; I break it in two and crush it up
H Dec, 1891. 14971. How much is that pill worth? About 2d.
14-972. Mr. Quong Tart.] If we kept you here for a long time to-day would you want to take it? Tee;
that is what I brought it for.
14973. Do you not think that is a very evil habit, seeing that you cannot do without it ? Everyone to
their fancy.
14974. You have to take your smoke before you go to bed at night ? I never go to bed at night. I do
not go until the morning. I have not been to sleep yet. I got up at half-past 3 yesterday morning and
have not been to bed since.
14975. Mr. Abigail.] How long could you go without sleep ? I am all right as long as I have a smoke.
14970. Would it not be better to knock it off altogether ? I suppose it would.
14977. Mr. Quong Tart.] How are you going to leave off opium-smoking ? I suppose I must go to the
doctor and get some medicine.
14978. Mr. Abigail.] I think you said you are going to get married at Christmas ? Tes.
14979. Have you been in the Church Home ? No.
14980. I think you have said that opium-smoking will not produce unconsciousness so that a young girl
under its influence would not know what was being done to her ? I have never heard of such a thing.
It has never done so to me. In fact it has never taken any effect upon me at all.
14981. Except to create a craving for the drug ? That is all.
14982. Have you heard that one effect of using opium is to destroy the appetite for intoxicating drinks ?
I have heard of cases where heavy drinkers have taken to opium, and have never thought of drinking
afterwards. But some girls both smoke and drink too.
14983. You are certain that opium could not be administered to a girl as a drug to bring her into a semi-
unconscious state ? Yes.
14984. How long have you been opium-smoking ? Eor five years. I kept on smoking until I acquired
the habit.
14985. Had you acquired the habit before you went to live permanently with your Chinaman ? No.
14086. Now, about the effect of opium hunger, does it affect the children of the woman who is a regular
smoker and has acquired the habit. In other words would a child of such a mother have a desire for
opium ? Yes ; in infancy they have the same habits as the mother. They are born with it.
14987. In giving that information you are speaking from personal knowledge of a case ? I am giving you
my own case.
1j 988. In view of that do you not think it would be worth your while to give up the habit? It is only
while they are on the breast that it affects them. "When I am opium sick they are sick, and as soon as I
have my smoke they are all right.
14989. When they grow up does it affect them ? No, only while they are on the breast.
14990. Mr. Ilaivthorne.] I suppose it is safe to assume that that little one of yours has not been taught the
habit of smoking opium ? No, she never sees me smoke.
14991. Seeing that you would not allow your child to smoke the inference is that you consider it a vicious
habit ? Yes, I never allow her near me when I am smoking or to see me.
14992. At what time of the day do you smoke ? In the morning. Two o'clock is the earliest I go to bed.
14993. Is it customary for European women who live with Chinamen, and who smoke opium, to keep "
similar hours ? Yes.
14994. "What is the object of sitting up so late? To smoke. They get into the habit of it. They smoke
so much at night that they sleep late in the day, and then they must smoke again when their time comes.
14995. The opium-smoking affects the joints of your body ? Yes, particularly the first finger.
14993. Previous to taking up with that Chinaman had you been living in a state of prostitution? No.
14997. How long did you stay in Young after you were seduced ? About four months.
14998. Where is the man who seduced you now ? In Balmain.
14.999. Do you meet him now ? I have seen him.
15000. Have you spoken to him ? Yes.
15001. Do you have any intercourse with him ? No, he is married now.
15C02. Does he know the mode of life you have gone in for ? Yes.
15003. Has he ever contributed in any way towards your support since he seduced you ? No.
15004. Mr. McKillop.] Did you ever tell him he was the cause of your being in your present position ?
Yes.
15005. What is his name ? H J .
15006. Up to the time of your seduction by this man had you lived a pure and virtuous life ? Yes.
15007. You thought he meant to marry you ? He wanted to marry me, but my mother would not let him.
15008. Was he not a respectable man ? ' No. His father used to get into trouble, and he used to get into
trouble too. My mother did not approve of it at all.
15009. Is your mother in a respectable position ? Yes.
15010. Do you keep up any correspondence ? None at all.
15011. Then you are to all intents and purposes an outcast ? Yes, they never think of me and I never
think of them.
[The witness withdrew.]
Minnie called and examined : —
Minnie — 15012. Mr. Abigail] Where do you live ? In Cambridge-street.
,-__a^_ ^ 15013. Are you living with a Chinaman ? Yes.
HDee., 1891. 15014. How long have you been living with this Chinaman? About seven months. I have been about
five years with them altogether.
15015. During that time how many Chinese have you lived with altogether ? Two.
15016. What has been the nature of the treatment you have received from them ? I have received every
kindness from them.
15017. What business does the man follow whom you are living with now ? He is a cook.
15018.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES 01? EVIDENCE. 40&
l *m 8" D°eS he COme Jl0me daily ? 'No ' he comes nome twice or tnree times a week. Minnie — -
}™Z{' Voe? ie suPPlv y°u with what money you want for the house and for yourself ? Tes. wT^Ci
15020. And you keep yourself faithful to him now ? Tes. U Deo>> 189L
15021. Does any other man visit you ? No.
15022. Do you smoke opium ? Not now ; I used to.
irno^' u°W il0Dg ag0 is i<; since you stoPPed ? About ten months ago.
i S' S°W g had you been smoking UP to that time ? Very nearly three years.
}™it' m,T muc,h, opium Per day did y°u smoke ? Three or four shillings worth.
15020. 1 hat would be considered heavy? Yes.
15027. How often did you smoke in the day ? Three times.
15028. At what hours ? Generally when I got up in the morning I would have a few pipes— at about 10
or 11 o clock ; the second smoke I would have at 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon : and then at night about
an hour betore I went to bed.
15029. That would be about 11 or 12 o'clock ? Yes.
i rno?' ??V' What e^ect has °Pium-smoking upon you ? It is a habit ; that is all.
Io031. I know that it must have some effect. If a person takes grog it makes him dull or quarrelsome,
as the case may be. Now, what I want to know from you is, the effect of opium ;— does it make you
dream, or ardently desire anything; or does it make you simply stupid and helpless? It has no more
effect upon me than an ordinary smoke.
15032. That is very strange. We have been told it has a very decided effect ? It might have, but I have
never experienced it.
15033. Have you ever heard of it rendering a woman unconscious so that she would not know what was
done to her m any way ? No. And I do not think it would unless she was under the influence of drink,
and then it would take effect very quickly.
15034. Do you think that if a woman took 3s. worth of opium, and she lay down, that it would so affect
her that any person could take liberties with her without her knowing it ? No. It has never affected me
m that way. It would make you feel drowsy or sleepy quicker if one drank, but it has never affected
me that way.
15035. Then if a woman has sworn that when she is under the influence of opium a man could do what he
liked with her, and she would know nothing about it, that would not bo correct so far as your experience
is concerned ? No, I would not believe it.
15036. While you were taking opium did you drink ? No.
15037. Did you ever ? Oh, yes ; but that was before I took to opium-smoking.
15038. The opium destroys the desire for strong drink ? Yes. It seems to quieten you altogether.
There is no desire to go out and about, or anything, unless a person happens to be of a very lively dis-
position.
15039. Have you had any children ? Yes, two.
15040. Are they alive ? One is ; nearly eight years old.
15041. Have you heard of children born of a woman who smokes opium being affected with the opium
hunger ? Oh, yes.
15042. Does the man you are living with smoke opium ? No.
15013. Is he in favour of your smoking opium ? No. I have not smoked much lately as I told you. I
am taking medicine for it.
15044. What treatment have you received altogether from the Chinamen ? The best of treatment.
15045. In the first instance I suppose you were seduced by a European? Yes.
15046. Have you ever heard of Chinamen entrapping or inviting virtuous European girls to their places
and ruining them ? No.
15047. Have you ever heard of virtuous girls being taken to the Chinese quarters by women who have
already become degraded ? No ; I have not.
15048. If you took a heavy smoke of opium at 11 o'clock at night, how long would you sleep? Generally
till 10 o'clock in the morning.
15049. Are you a light or a heavy sleeper ? I am a light sleeper.
15050. Would you like to see opium done away with altogether ? It is nothing to me. If it is done
away with we can get medicine to cure us I suppose.
15051. Mr. Hawthorne.'] What do you mean by getting medicine to cure you ? Well, there is opium in
many medicines.
15052. But you do not like it medicinally ? I have seen it taken in water ; that is in the form of pills.
Generally speaking when persons get opium sick they get the stomach-ache, that is one of the effects. I
have not smoked much for ten m'onths.
15053. We have had various statements made here as to the feelingthat opium-smoking induces ; — what is
your experience speaking generally ? It gives you a drowsy sort of feeling.
15054. Does it send you off into a kind of dreamland ? No ; it never has me.
15055. If you were to smoke heavily would you have your senses about you the same as you have now ?
Yes. '
15056. It never made you unconscious ? No.
15057. So that any statement that may have been made either to this Commission or elsewhere, to the
effect that when persons smoke opium and are under its influence they are completely at the mercy of
any one who may have a design upon them, is untrue ? All I can say is that I do not believe it. Of
course if they drank it might have a greater effect.
15058. Did you ever try drink and opium mixed ? No.
15059. You have never known it to be done ? No.
15060. Supposing some respectable person went home with you this evening, and were induced to smoke
opium' for the first time with you, would it be possible for her (after she had smoked the opium) to be
seduced against her will, do you think ? No ; I think not.
15061. She would have to be a consenting party ? Yes. _
15062. And she would be just as strong to resist after smoking the opium as before ? Yes.
15063. That is your experience ? Yes. I was in a Chinaman's house before I ever thought of smoking
opium and I have sat and waited while they smoked.
1 272— 3 F I5064-
410 CHINESE GAMBLING! COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Minnie 15064. And you have never known an instance where a person has been rendered unconscious from
/""^^-^"^ smoking opium ? No.
14 Dec, 1891. 15060. What induced you to go with the Chinese in the first place ;— did you go of your own accord ?
No.
15066. Who took you among them in the first place ? I went in company with other females.
15067. "Were they of the prostitute order ? Tea.
15068. And did you go simply as a casual visitor to the Chinese quarters in the first instance ? Tes. A
friend of mine asked me to go and wait for her while she smoked.
15069. Do you think it would be possible for a respectable woman to go to an opium-shop for the
purpose of smoking opium and preserve her purity of character ? Tes ; I have seen it done.
15070. Do you know of any instance where young women have gone into these places to smoke opium
without having any improper intercourse with the Chinese whatever ? I know plenty of cases. It is just
a business-like transaction, the same as if you went into a refreshment-room and had some refreshments.
15071. Are the girls who go to smoke in these places generally of the unfortunate class ? I cannot tell that.
15072. Would you take them to be so ? Yes. By their appearance I would take them to be so.
15073. Can you call to mind any respectable young person having gone into a Chinese place to smoke
opium ? No.
15074. Mr. Abigail^ You are a married woman I believe ? Yes.
15075. How long have you been separated from your husband ? Seven years.
15076. Are you living apart from him on account of his bad treatment of you ? Yes, his cruelty and
drunkenness.
15077. As a matter of fact did he keep you while you lived together ? He did in a sort of a, way, when
he worked, and when he did not I had to do the best I could.
15078. He wanted you to go out and do the best you could I suppose. And since you left him you have
received from the Chinese kindness which has been in great contrast to your husband's treatment of you?
Certainly.
15079. Is your husband alive ? Yes.
15080. Would you marry a Chinaman if he were dead ? 1 would.
15081. You have found them altogether kind' and considerate in every way? Yes.
15082. Have you had any quarrel with the man you are living with ? No.
15083. Has he never struck you ? No, never.
15084. And has never told you to go out and earn money on the streets ? No.
15085. He supplies you with everything you want ? Yes ; in fact he is very kind.
15086. Mr. McEillop.~\ How many of you live together in that house ? Two.
15087. Are there only you and the other girl ? Yes.
15088. Is there any immorality carried on in connection with your occupancy of that place with this other
girl? No. We live together there for company.
15089. Is it not a fact that other Chinamen than those you are supposed to be living with visit that place ?
Yes ; certainly they do, but not for immoral purposes.
15090. In short, you are true to your man, and she is true to her man ? Yes.
15091. What do they allow you a week? My fellow allows me £1 a week.
15092. What do you pay for the house ? Sixteen shillings a week. I pay half the rent, and the other
girl pays the other half.
15093. How many rooms are there in the house ? Four rooms.
15094. Then you have the other 12s. to keep you in food ? Yes.
15095. What do you do for opium ? I do not smoke much — about 3d.-worth a day.
15096. You are breaking yourself of the habit ? Yes.
15097. Do you drink ? Very seldom. I may have a bottle of porter once in a way.
15098. Is 12s. a week enough to keep you ? Yes.
15099. Do you get no money from any other source ? No.
15100. Does your Chinaman buy you jewellery, and so forth ? Yes.
15101. How long have you been in contact with the Chinese altogether? Six or seven years.
15102. Who was the Chinaman you lived with before ? Ah Way — he has a cookshop in Campbell-street.
15103. Did you stop there with him ? No.
15101. What made you leave him ? Because he failed in business. We parted the best of friends. He
told me he could not keep me. He was very sorry.
15105. How long were you with him ? Three years.
15106. What Chinaman did you live with before him ? He was the first Chinaman that I lived with.
15107. But you had intercourse with them before that ? Yes.
15108. Is your husband in gaol now? I do not know.
15109. He did get a long sentence, did he not ? I know nothing about him.
15110. What made you leave him ? His cruelty.
15111. Did you not say to us when we were down your way that your husband got into gaol for embezzle-i
ment ? No. Somebody said to me that he got into trouble.
15112. You know Mr. H- • ? Yes.
15113. You were in his employment at one time ? Yes.
15114. How long ago was that ? I forget. It was before I' was married. I was married in 1879.
15115. Mr. Abigail.] What age are you ? Twenty-seven.
15116. Then you were about 16 years of age when you were married ? Yes.
15117. Mr. McKillop.] What is your maiden name ? B
15118. Are you a native of Sydney ? Yes.
15119. Did your husband occupy a pretty good position when he married you ? Yes.
15120. He was in such a position that he could have kept you in a respectable manner? Yes.
15121. There was no cause on your side for the separation"? No. I was his second wife.
15122. Did you first become acquainted with him when you were in Mr. H 's employment ? Yes.
15123. Did you bear him any children ? Yes — two.
15124. Are they living ? One is. It is out at Botany with my sister.
15 L25. How long were you married to him when he started his ill-treatment ? About twelve months. My
people were always against the marriage. I got married against their wishes. Consequently, when I
went to see them afterwards he did not like it, and we were always rowing about it. 15126.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP ETIDENCE. 41J'
15126. Is it solely of your own resolve that you are leaving off the opium-smoking ? Yes, and the man Minnie •
I am living with advised me to leave off smoking. /->•—*— -»
15127. Does he smoke? No. 14 Dec, 1891/
15128. You say that opium-smoking does not make you unconscious, or in such a way that anybody
could take liberties with you without your having the power of resistance ? No.
15129. It has not the same effect as drink ? No.
15180. Does it bring on sickness ? If you smoke too heavy it would.
15131. Do you have a pipe in the house you are living in? Yes.
15132. Who does it belong to ? It belongs to
15133. Does she smoke heavily ? Yes.
15134. Do you often visit the opium-smoking place where we saw you ? No.
15135. What brought you there on that occasion ? I was asked to go down there to get some opium.
15136. That is a regular opium-smoking den, is it not ? I do not know, I never was there before.
15137. Have you been residing in Cambridge-street ever since you have been living with this man ? Not
all the time. I was living down in Queen-street at one time.
15138. Does your husband know of your present mode of life ? I do not know — I never hear of him.
15139. What business was he in ? He was a carcass butcher when I married him. He was working for
Macnamara.
15140. Do your people know of the unfortunate position you are in? I do not know.
15141. Are both your parents living? No, my mother is dead.
15142. Have you any other relations ? Yes.
15143. Do girls that smoke opium also take to drink ? Some of them do, and some do not. They do not
generally drink.
15144. Are there a number of houses of ill-fame in the locality where you live ? Not that I am aware of —
not in our street.
15145. Are there not a number of European girls who live with Chinamen in that locality ? No, not in
Cambridge-street. In Harrington-street and Gloucester-street there are.
15146. Do they live on the same terms as you and these other girls with Chinamen, or are they simply
houses of ill-fame ? I only know one there, and she is living respectably with a Chinaman.
15147. What is your husband by trade ? He is a cook, employed on the North Shore.
15148. In a hotel ? No, in a private gentleman's house.
15149. Is it not a fact that there are a number of gambling-houses there ? Not that I am aware of.
15150. Do you visit any of the gambling-houses? No.
15151. Do you not buy pak-ah-pu tickets either ? No.
15152. But you know what they are I suppose ? Yes.
15153. Did you ever mark any of them ? No.
15154. Did you go to school when you were young ? Yes.
15155. Was it a public school ? No.
15156. I believe you occupied a pretty good position when you were in the drapery business, did you not?
Yes, I did.
15157. Were you a forewoman ? No.
15158. When you separated from your husband was it force of circumstances that drove you on the
streets — through not being provided for ? Yes.
15159. Did you leave him, or did he leave you ? He ill-treated me, and my father took me away
from him.
15160. You had borne two children to him by that time ? Yes, I had to leave him before, and was away
for about two months ; I went back again and lived with him for about eleven months ; but he got worse
instead of better, and I left him again for my father's home. He used to drink very heavily.
15161. Were you faithful to him all that time ? Yes ; I never went outside unless in his company.
15162. Did you go from your father's home on to the streets? I went to take a situation away out of
Sydney, and as soon as I came back I went wrong.
15163. What part did you go to when you took this situation ? I went a long way across the water.
15164. Was it not to Noumea that you went ? Yes.
15165. Who engaged you to go there ? I was engaged by a woman.
15166. Was it not a cafe you went to ? No. '
15167. Or a house of prostitution ? No, it was a hotel. I was down there betore that scandal occurred
that you refer to. I remember that.
15168. How long were you in Noumea ? I was there about three years ago.
15169. Did you lead a virtuous life there? Yes.. ,
15170. Is it not a fact that a number of girls were taken away from here to Noumea for immoral purposes ?
Yes ; I was there nine months when that happened.
15171. Who engaged you to go there ? Madame T
15172. Were they respectable people that engaged you ? Very.
15173. The girls referred to were decoyed there ? Yes ; the house they were taken to was pulled to
15174. "Were the girls brought back ? Yes, most of them ; there is one down there yet, I think.- She
was there when I left. .
15175. Mr. Abigail^ What salary did you receive while you were at that place in Noumea ? Twenty-five
shillings a week and board.
15176 Had you good accommodation ? Yes ; there was another young girl engaged as housemaid, and I
was barmaid, and we had one room to ourselves.
15177. Mr. McKillop.~\ Could you speak the language ? I could.
15178.' Did you learn French when you went to school ? I did.
15179 How did you get this engagement ? Simply enough . This Frenchman used to keep a retreshment-
shop in Lower George-street, and a young girl friend of mine knew the wife. We went in to have a cup
of tea one day and she asked us to go, as they were selling out to start business there. I suddenly
decided to go and my friend went with me. The Frenchman could speak English fluently.
15180. In what part of Lower George-street was this refreshment-room ? Nearly down to Circular Quay.
15181. Have you been in any religious home in Sydney ? No. 15182.
412
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Minnie-
U Dec, 1891.
15182. Do you take regular trips to the country for change of air ? No.
151S3. I suppose you do know of girls that take trips into the country, and visit the Chinese camps, do
you not ? I have heard several of them talking amongst themselves about it, but I do not know whether
it was true or not.
15184. Did you sleep well when you used to be an opium-smoker ? Sometimes.
15185. Does it interfere with your rest at night ? No.
15186. It does not deprive you of sleep ? No.
15187. Do you sleep heavy ? No, I do not sleep heavy at any time.
15188. How long were you employed in the drapery establishment that I referred to a little while ago ?
I was bound for two years.
15189. What particular branch of the trade was it — dressmaking ? No ; millinery.
15190. And when you were out of your time did you marry ? Yes.
15191. What was your husband's name ? K .
15192. Do you intend to continue living with the man you are with now ? Tes.
15193. Did you ever live with a European other than your husband ? No.
15194. Mr. Quong Tart.'] Tou know there has been a complaint against tho Chinese about their encour-
aging or decoying young women to their places for immoral purposes. Now I want you to state whether
there is any truth in that according to your experience ? I never knew of an instance.
15195. Mr. Abigail.'] Then in your experience it is not correct ? No.
15196. Mr. Quong Tart.] If women go to the Chinese houses, either to smoke opium or livd with the
Chinese, it is their own fault, and not the fault of the Chinese ? Quite so ; I never knew of a single
instance.
15197. Mr. Abigail.] Do not the Chinese show a preference for European women? Some do.
15198. Mr. Quong Tart.] Do you know of any case where the Chinese have ill-treated or been unkind to
any of their women ? No; I think fully half of them come to the Chinese when they have nowhere
else to go.
15199. Mr. Abigail] Is it because the Chinese are kind to them ? That is the main thing, and for tho
sake of a home.
15200. In other words, if they can find one Chinaman to support them, it is better than going out night
after night to seek for men ? Certainly.
15201. And they prefer one to many ? Tes.
15202. Mr. Quong Tart.] Opium has a peculiar smell, has it not ? Tes.
15203. Complaints have been made about the smell that comes from the Chinamen's places. I suppose
you can detect the smell of this opium outside the door, can you not ? Yes.
15204. If you smoke it yourself you cannot smell it so readily ? No ; you cannot.
15205. It is difficult to leave off smoking, and you have to do it gradually, I suppose — reducing the
amount day by day ? Yes.
15206. One young woman that was here brought an opium pill with her ; — is that necessary ? She must
be a heavy smoker.
15207. Can you do without it ? Yes ; because I do not smoke much now. In fact all day I never smoke
at all.
15208. Do you not feel any desire for it? No ; I take medicine.
15209. Mr. Abigail.] When you were employed by Mr. H were you a virtuous girl ? Yes.
15210. Do you not know where your husband is ? The last I heard of him he was at Pyrmont.
[The witness withdrew.]
Pauline •
Fauline
14 Dec. ,1891
called and examined : — •
• 15211. President.] Where do you live ? In Cambridge-street.
15212. How long have you lived there ? Por nine months.
15213. Where wero you living before that? In Harrington-street.
15214. How long did you live there ? About eighteen months.
15215. How long have you been in the' Colony ? I have been six years in Sydney.
15216. What age are you now ? Twenty-two.
15217. Then you arrived here when you were sixteen ? Yes.
15218. Where did you come from ? Prom Brisbane.
15219. Are you a native of Queensland ? No; lama native of Germany.
15220. How long were you living in Brisbane ? A long time ; I went to school there.
15221. What made you leave Brisbane ? My husband fetched me to Sydney.
15222. Did you marry in Brisbane ? Yes.
15223. And you came to Sydney with your husband ? Yes.
15224. Did you live in Sydney with him ? I lived with him in Sydney for a few weeks, and he then took
me back to Brisbane.
15225. Did he desert you ? Yes.
15226. Did you have any children as the result of your marriage ? No.
15227. Did you never have any children ? No.
15228. Why did your husband leave you ? He did not say.
15229. Did he suspect you of infidelity? No.
15230. When you came from Brisbane to Sydney, what did you do for a living? I went to service.
15231. How long were you at service? Pive or six months.
15232. Did you get into the society of any European friends ? I had a couple of girl friends that I
knew in Brisbane ; and when I came to Sydney I met them.
15233. Where did you meet them ? At Surry Hills.
15234. In a lodging-house ? It was a boarding-house.
15235. Were they all girls staying there ? There were girls and men, and married couples.
15236. An ordinary boardjng-house ? Yes. I stayed there after I left service.
15237. How came you to be associated with the Chinese— who took you to them first ? A young girl-
she is dead now. She took me to Queen's-place first.
15238. What washer object in taking you there? She went to see a bloke. But I had been amongst
the Chinese before that in Brisbane. 15239.
CHINESE GAMBLINC COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 413
15239. How did you come to get in -with the Chinamen in Brisbane ? I stopped at a house in Albert- Pauline
street, there. , c- — »^->>
15240. Is that a Chinese establishment ? No. But Chinese used to go there. 14 Dec., 1891.
15241. "Was it a bad house — a house of assignation ? Tes.
15242. You went there, and had commerce with the Chinamen ? Yes.
15243. Did you pick up with any particular Chinese there ? No.
15244. You went with any of them ? Well, I did not knock about much with them.
15245. You allowed them to go with you for money from time to time ? Yes ; but I did not stop with
any of them in Brisbane. When I came to Sydney I picked up with one Chinaman.
15246. How long have you lived with this one Chinaman ? Nearly four years.
15247. During that time you have not been going with any other men ? No.
1-5248. Have you had any children ? I have not had any born alive.
15249. What is the name of your Chinaman ? Ah Yow.
15250. What is his age ? Twenty-eight.
15251. What does he do for a living ? He is a cook.
15252. Where does he work ? He is not in Sydney now— he has gone to China.
15253. Where did he work when he was in Sydney ? He worked in a hotel.
15254. What wages did he get ? Thirty shillings a week.
15255. What did he give you? He paid the rent, and bought tucker and clothes.
15256. Had you the house to yourself ? Yes ; I had a house of my own.
15257. What rent did you pay? Ten shillings a week. He used to make more than 30s. a week
altogether. He used to sell fat, and got 10s. or 15s. for that.
15258. Who are you living with now ? Another Chinaman.
15259. What is he ? I do not know. He has money in the bank. He goes to Botany every Saturday.
I cannot tell you what he is doing now.
15260. Is he in town every day ? Every week day, barring Saturday.
15261. Do you not know that he goes to Botany to preside over a fan-tan table ? I cannot say.
15262. Do you not think so ; or have you never heard anything to that effect ? He never told me
anything.
15263. Have you not heard so ? No.
15264. Then you do not know how he earns his living ? He has money in the bank.
15265. Does he keep you well supplied with money ? Yes ; if I want pocket-money he gives it to me.
15266. Do you get as much as £5 a week from him ? I do not know exactly what I get. He pays the
rent and expenses of house-keeping, and if I want anything he gives me money to buy it.
15267. Do you smoke opium ? Not much ; I used to smoke opium, but I am knocking it off. I only
use 6d. -worth a day now. I am thinking of going home to see my father in Queensland.
15268. How many people are living in the house with you ? Only the other young girl and her man — he
works at the North Shore.
15269. You are quite sure you do not know whether the Chinaman you are living with has a ganibling-
place at Botany ? I do not know. I do not ask him.
15270. Does he smoke opium ? No.
15271. Have you ever heard from your husband since ? No.
15272. Did you run away from him ? No ; he ran away from me.
15273. Where is he now ? I do not know. My father told me he was in Brisbane.
15274. You were married when you were about 16 years of age ? Not quite 16.
15275. Whab was your husband's age ? He was nineteen when I married him.
15276. Did you go with other men before you went with the Chinese ? I lived with one white man before
I went to live with the Chinamen.
15277. Did your husband see the man you lived with coming after you ? No.
15278. Do you mean to tell me, after the man who was keeping you left you, that you went straight
away to the Chinese quarters? I met with a couple of girls who took me down.
15279. Why did you leave the protection of the man who was keeping you after your husband left you ?
Because he wanted me to knock about the streets for him.
15280. Where is he now ? At Newtown.
15281. You refused to do that, and left him to take up with the Chinese ; — did this white man you lived
with for a time ever illtreat you ? No.
15282. Did you have to do with the Chinese before you left him, and give him the money you got from
the Chinese? No. .
15283. Then you have had to do with only two Chinamen in this Colony ? I lived with another Chinaman
when I went to Newcastle.
15284. When you went down to Queen's-place on the first occasion, what occurred ? Nothing occurred
to me. I simply went down with another girl.
15285. I mean what occurred when you went into the house — there were a number of Chinamen there I
suppose ? There were three men that lived in the house.
15286. Did they ask you to stay with you ? No.
15287. Did you not have any connection with the Chinese when you went to Queen's-place on that
occasion ? No. This girl that brought me down there took me to the markets, and I picked up with a
Chinaman there. .
15288. Then you went down to Queen's-place on that occasion for no particular purpose ? I went down
with that girl who used to live with a fellow there, and she had a row with him.
15289. How long did you stay there ? About twenty minutes.
15290. Did you smoke opium in Brisbane ? No. I commenced when I came to Sydney.
15291." When you smoke opium now do you smoke it at home, at your own house, or do you go out ? I
smoke it at home.
15292. Does vour husband smoke ? No.
15293. Do many Chinese visit your house ? No. Sometimes eome of his friends may come there.
15294^ When you have had your opium-smoke are you conscious of what is going on ? Certainly.
15295^ It does' not make you unconscious so that a man could do anything with you and you not know
it? No. You cannot be drugged with opium. 15296.
414 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE,
Paulino 15296. Is it a fact that men who smoke opium have no desire to have any connection with women?
/^■^K-^~\ Quite right, they do not.
14 Dec, 1891. 15097. Mr. Abigail.'] Now I want you to describe to the Commission what is the effect of a good strong
smoke of opium ? It does not affect you in any way. ,
15298. Surely it creates some feeling. Do you know what the effect of drink is ? I do not touch drink.
15299. Have you ever done so ? I have taken some brandy when I was sick ; but I have never taken
much at any time. '
15300. When a person first commences to smoke opium does it make them sick? Yes.
15801. How long does it take you to overcome the sickness ? There is no actual sickness ; only it makes
you feel sick, something like sea-sickness. When you are accustomed to smoke you feel sick until you
get your smoke.
15302. Before you are thoroughly seasoned to it will it not make you unconscious ? It never made roe so.
15303. Supposing it has been stated by a person who visited one of these opium-smoking houses that he
Baw two or three girls there, only one of whom was conscious, and that after trying to wake the other girls,
on questioning the one that was awake, she explained that they were under the influence of opium, and
it would be no use trying to wake them for two or three hours ;— what would you say to such a statement,
Well ; they might have been drinking. Opium would not do that.
15304. Now listen to this, from the report of an official visitor to one of these places : — " As I understand
they induce these girls in the first instance to enter these places, and then get them to smoke opium, by
which they become drugged, and then the Chinese do what they like with them " ; — have you ever heard
of anything like that ? No ; they would not do anything like that. If you went of your own free will,
well and good ; but they would not force you to go or to smoke.
15305. You do not think they would resort to any improper means of that kind ? No ; I know they
never forced me. On the contrary, they object to me smoking.
15306. How often do you smoke ? Three times a day. That is to say, I used to when I was smoking
much.
15307. What did it cost you ? Half-a-crown a day.
15308. What does it cost you now? It costs me 6d. a day. I have been knocking it off for three
months.
15309. Do you feel better for leaving it off? Yes ; a great deal better.
15310. And you would like to get away from the influence of it altogether ? Yes ; I do not like opium
at all.
15311. You say you went to service before you went to live with the Chinamen ;— did you follow any
other occupation ? Yes ; I was with a circus.
15312. What payment did you get for that ? I got £2 a week.
15313. Whose circus was it ? Chiarini's.
15314. Was that in Sydney ? I came to Sydney with them, and stayed here for a while._
15315. What induced you to give up that ; — was that not a better mode of life than this other that you
have been leading ? They broke up in Sydney, and I did not want to go where they were going after-
wards. They went to New Zealand.
15316. What were your duties in connection with the circus ? I used to do statues with another girl.
15317. You did not enter any other circus after that? No.
15318. What treatment have you received generally from the Chinamen you have been living with?
"Very good treatment.
15319. I think I understood you to say that the European you lived with at Newtown told you to go out
on the streets and get money? Yes; when I first went to live with him he kept me for about a month,
and then he told me to go on the streets and keep him.
15320. And you objected ? I did.
15321. You thought it better to have one Chinaman to live with than to go nightly on the street to
solicit men ? Yes.
15322. You are quite sure about the effects of opium, that it could not by any means of using it bring
about that state of unconsciousness I have described ? I do not think so.
15323. What infatuation is there in it that makes the women take to it ? I think it is all flashness in
the first place when they start to smoke.
15324. Do you smoke cigarettes ? Yes.
15325. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Since you took up with this man whom you are living with now, have you kept
free from prostitution ? Yes; I have never had anybody. In fact I have never been outside my own
house, I have had such a lot of sickness.
15326. He supplies you with sufficient money to prevent you having to resort to other men ? Yes.
15327. And on the whole he treats you kindly ? Yes.
15328. Is your father aware that you are living with this Chinaman ? No.
15329. Does he write to you ? Yes. I have a stepmother, and several sisters and brothers.
15330. Are any of them aware of your present mode of life ? No.
15331. You have not at any time of your life, I understand, been what is known as a common prostitute,
that is, you have not walked the streets ? No.
15332. Mr. Quong Tart.] How did you come to smoke opium in the first instance ? I taught myself.
15333. The man you are living with is against you smoking ? Yes. He lets me smoke, but he does not
like me to do it. As a rule, the Chinese do not like to see any of the girls smoking.
15334. What part did you take in the circus ? I used to do statues. There were three girls. One of
them used to ride.
15335. What trade did the man follow who lived with you in Newtown ? He was a bricklayer.
15336. Did the man you are living with at present ever ask you to go out and keep him ? No ; he does
not care for me to go out at all. In fact I never go outside my own house.
15337. In your experience among the Chinese in Queensland and this Colony did you ever know a China-
man to decoy a young girl, and get her to smoke opium, and then seduce her ? No, I never knew one
of them to do it.
15338. What sort of women come to the Chinese places as a rule ? As a rule they are women who have
fallen. Some of them have left their husbands. I would sooner live with a Chinaman than I would with
a white man. The Chinamen know how to treat a woman.. 15339.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 415
i r'Sn T?a are getting rid of the °Pium habit ? Tes- Pau1^
l £ui " tv? yon4?"?g. any °Pium with J?n ,t0-day ? No ! I slla11 not want to smoke to-day until I get home. —
would be fo^he^Ss W° " g° Dg t0 d° aWay Witt °Piu™°kil>g ^together ? I think * 1fi£jm.
Sis where^Tyed!'^0 T°U ^ ^ hUSband' °r ^ left J°U' in Queensland ? Tes> in Bundaberg ;
lSS' ST ST Ci°mv *° th! Chin?e quf ters in B™bane ? We often used to go there to the. shops.
15314. Mr. fcKillop-] You Baid ^you stopped at Albert-street? Tes ; at
1534j. Is not that a house of ill-fame ? Yes. '
15346. Do the Chinese visit there ? Yes
15348' Did ™7£™r» Tf &TSlt^ inAtercourse ™th the Chinese ? I used to speak to them.
TKotn w y er g0 before the doctor t0 °e examined ? No
i^rf; JSSiu regl8tered when you ^ero in — ? * did not st°p there that long- * wasonly a
sW' Did y°U °0me t0 8 Jdney by y°UrS6lf ' 0r Uuder the Protection of anybody ? I came over with the
15351. With the circus ? Yes.
in6 Briiwy°U aPPlj f°r ^ aPP°intment ? No> the man who engaged me knew that I was on the stage
^q^' S What caPac% were you on the stage ? I was a ballefvgirl.
T £ wo ?/°U ca.me.onto SJd™Y with the circus ? Yes ; and when they went to New Zealand I left,
to Quern-stre°etSerVICe m * C°°kshoP ln ^-street. Then I picked up with a girl who fetched me down
15355. Was she a prostitute ? Yes.
JSS' J?1"!* wasberl]ame? ■ She is dead now. She died in Maitland
i kq-b TT8ed y°U 1° mak,e ^uarterly or half-yearly trips through the country ? No, not now.
I&doS U sed you formerly to take trips through the country ? Not through the country. I used to go
from here to Newcastle, and I went to Tamworth also.
S *°™ bad a ma? in Newcastle with whom you lived ? Yes ; a Chinaman.
\bibO. What was he ? A fancy -goods man.
15361. What did you go to Tamworth for? To see a woman who is married to a Chinaman. I had
known her some, time.
]llal' ^he? l°U ^ere in Service iu Pitt-street did you carry on with Europeans ? No.
n I in. m -Tr°U \ , a vlrtuous llfe ? 1 was not virtuous, but I did not knock about.
15364. You did not go about the streets ? No.
i «Qfi'p ?°. Jou lcil0f &nj, cases of Sirls getting 'disease from Chinamen ? I do not know of any case.
153b(>. Is it not a fact that a lot of girls live with Chinamen in the locality you are living in, and that
some oi them keep common bawdy-houses ? There may be ; but I cannot say that, for I very seldom go
outside my own door.
15367. Do you drink at all? I have taken a little, but I do not drink as the saying is.
15368. I think you said that you have been ailing lately ? I have been sick this three or four months.
15369. You have never had any children born alive ? No ; I have never had a full-grown child.
15370. Did you ever have an operation performed on you for the purpose of procuring abortion ? Never.
15371. Mr. Abigail.'] Are the Chinamen that yo u have been with generally clean, that is, do they wash them-
selves frequently or not ? The one I am with now is very clean ; he is always washing himself. He
washes every night before he gets into bed.
15372. Do they insist on the women being the same ? Yres. They like cleanliness. If you are dirty
they will quickly tell you so ; if you have dirty clothes on, for instance.
[Witness withdrew.]
TUESDAY, 15 JDHOUMBUB, 1891.
present:—
The Mayor oe Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
EEANCIS ABIQAIL, Esq., Vice-Peesident.
EAMSEY M'KILDOP, Esq., | QTJONG- TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
War Hop called and examined : —
15373. President.] What are you ? I am a gardener. War Hop
15374. Where is your garden"? At North Shore. ^^»_\^— n
15375. How many acres of land do you cultivate ? Eight acres. IS Dec, 1891
15376. .What rent do you pay for the land ? I pay £44 a year.
15377. Who is your landlord ? Mr. Watson.
15378. How long have you been in occupation of the land ? I have been there sis years. Formerly 1
had a garden of Mr. Eorsyth, on the North Shore.
15379. How long have you been gardening on the North Shore altogether ? Thirteen years.
15380. How many have you assisting you to work the 8 acres ? Sis men.
15381. Are they wage men or partners sharing in the profits, whatever they may be ? They are all
employed by me at a weekly wage — £1 a week and found.
15382. Do you all sleep in one room ? No ; there are three rooms in my house, and the men sleep two
in a room.
15383. Do the men work constantly from Monday morning till Saturday night ? Yes.
15384., How many hours a day do they work on an average ? They average 11 hours a day.
15385. What does it cost you to board your men ? About 8s. a week.
15386. Of what nature is the food you give them ? A little beef or pork and cabbage with rice, and
sometimes a little salt fish. 15387.
416 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MIMTES OF EVIDENCE.
War Hop. 15887. When the men knock off work on Saturday night do they come into town ? No.
t *- — * 15388. Do they never leave the premises ? When the work is done they wash themselves and go to bed.
15 Dec, 1891. 15339. Is it customary for Chinese workmen, such as cabinet-makers and gardeners, to perform these,
ablutions nightly? Yes.
15390. It is a general custom among the Chinese ? Yes. .
15391. Is it part of their religion to do that ? It is partly from the teachings of our mothers in our youth.
15392. How do you fertilise your land ? We use bone-dust and horse-dung.
15393. Do you use human excreta ? No.
15394. What becomes of the excreta on your premises ? We use it about the fruit-trees.
15395. How much land have you sown in fruit-trees ? A little over 1 acre.
1539(3. Have you got any orange-trees there ? No ; I have apples and peaches.
15397. Do any women visit your camp ? No.
15398. Do any of your men smoke opium on the premises ? No.
15399. Have you any objection to their smoking opium ? I would not like them to smoke opium.
15400. When they leave your premises to come to town do they not smoke opium in the dens whore it is
carried on ? That I cannot say. . .
15401. If your men did make a practice of smoking opium, would you consider them as efficient as work-
men? No. They would not be fit for work, and I would not have them.
15402. Have you amassed a considerable sum of money during your thirteen years labour in Australia?
No ; we have not had very good seasons. I have saved a little over £100.
15403. Is that independently of your stock ? Yes.
15404. How many horses and carts have you got ? Only one horse and cart.
15405. Have you got any relations in Lower George-street ? No ; I have no relations in Sydney at all,
and I am always on my garden. One of my men comes into town with the cart.
1540G. What objection have you to human manure for fertilising the land ? It is not as good as bone-
dust and horse-dung ; but it is far better for fruit.
15407. Is it not a good forcing manure for vegetables— lettuce, for instance ? It is good for lettuce.
15408. Do you not know that your countrymen use it pretty largely for such vegetables ? I do not know
whether they do or not ; I know I do not in my garden.
15409. What quantity of bone-dust do you use in a year ? Fifteen or 10 tons.
15410. How much a ton do you pay ? £5 a ton.
15411. Is all the land you have got — 18 acres — under cultivation ? Yes.
15412. Then you fertilise it to the extent of about 2 tons of bone-dust per acre per year ? Yes ; in
addition to horse-dung.
15413. Do you use much horse-dung ? We use four loads of horse-dung every week,
15414. That would be twenty-five loads of horse-dung per acre per year ? Yes.
15415. That is an enormous amount of fertilising material ;— are you quite sure about your quantities?
Yes. I have gone rather under than over the mark.
1541G. What do you pay a load for horse manure ? Sometimes we get it for nothing — for carting it
away ; sometimes we pay 2s. a load.
15417. Do you know Cheang Ah Tick ? Yes.
15418. Has he not a market-garden or orchard at North Shore ? Yes.
15419. How many acres has he under cultivation ? About twenty.
15420. Has he any interest in gardens about Waterloo or Botany ? I do not know that.
15421. Have you any interest in Waterloo or Botany gardens ? No.
15422. Have you ever employed white men about your gardens ? No.
15423. Does Cheang Ah Tick ever employ white people ? No ; all Chinamen.
15-124. Does he import the Chinamen ? No ; he engages them here.
15425. Do you know what wages Cheang Ah Tick pays his Chinamen that work for him ? No, I do not.
15426. Is it not a fact that a Chinaman can easily be obtained for 10s. a week and board ? You could
get an old man for that, or a cripple, but not a good man.
15427. Is the ruling rate what you pay — £1 a week and board ? Yes.
15428. Mr. McKillop.~\ Are you sure that you do not use human excreta or urine for manuring your
land sown in vegetables ? Yes, I am quite sure.
15429. Where do you say your garden is ? It is between North Sydney and North Willoughby.
15430. How many gardens are there on the North Shore ? There are about thirty gardens there.
15431. Do any of these gardens use human excreta or urine for manure ? I do not know.
15432. Are you the sole proprietor of your garden ? Yes.
15433. What are your yearly profits ? So far we have been working at a loss. We have a lease of
twelve years. For the first five years we do not expect to make much, as it takes time to clear and
cultivate the land. But afterwards we shall make it.
15434. Do you mean to say it has taken you five years to get your garden to perfection ? Quite true.
We have made no money for five years.
15435. What I ask is, does it take five years to bring a vegetable garden to perfection ? It would take
five years to get a vegetable garden like this one is now. But we could have stuff to sell in twelve
months.
15436. Is your orchard separate from the vegetable garden ? It is divided from the vegetables.
15437. Do you not grow vegetables in between ? We grow pumpkins, water-melons, and pie-melons.
15438. You have stated that you are working the garden at a loss ; — who pays that loss ? We run an
account with the man who supplies us with provisions. He holds security for what we owe over the
plant.
15439. What rent do you pay for the 8 acres ? £44 a year.
15440. Is that the whole extent of your leasehold ? , Yes.
15441. And you have got a lease for twelve years. How many men work at the garden besides yourself?
Six men besides myself.
15442. And you pay all these men at a weekly wage ? Yes.
15443. All the profits go to you ? Yes. If I make any profit I receive it, and if any losses I have to
pay them.
15444. How long have you been losing money ? Four years. 15445.
CHINESE OAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 417
15445. Have you got a good banking account ? No. War Hop.
15446. You stated to the President that you had £100 to the good ? Yes.' ' * N
15447. Then have you not been drawing from your banking account to pay for your losses ? That £100 15 Dec,> 1891,
is what I have made since I have been in the Colony ; I have not touched that yet.
15448. You are in debt to the various storekeepers you say ? Yes.
15449. Then they do not know anything about the £100, 1 suppose ? It is in China. I sent it home".
15450. Are there any Chinese gardens in close proximity to your garden ? A few.
15451. Are they large gardens ? No ; they are little ones.
15452. Have you seen them using human manure or urine ? No.
15453. Is it not a fact that you do use this human manure, after reducing it to a weak state, to sprinkle
over the vegetables ? No ; I am quite certain I do not use it at all— neither I nor my men.
15454. Have you ever visited the gardens in "Waterloo or Botany ? No.
15455. Now, do you not know, with your thirteen years' experience, that many of your countrymen use
this human manure and urine for the purpose of fertilising their gardens ? I have heard that it has been used.
15456. Do you consider the use of it detrimental to the vegetables ? Not having used it I cannot say.
15457. Have you never used it in your own country ? No ; I was not a gardener at home. I have take
to gardening since I came out here.
1545S. Are you in partnership with any business in the city ? No.
15459. Is it not a fact that you have an interest in some gambling-places in Groulburn-street ? No.
15460. But you visit them ? No.
15461. Do you believe in gambling ? No ; it is no good.
15462. Do you approve of opium-smoking ? No ; it is no good.
15463. Are you a married man ? I have a wife in China.
15464. Does not a white women visit you every week. Do not white women go to the gardens at all ?
Only the friends that come on Sunday to look at the gardens. The daughters of the landlord come to
the gardens on Sunday sometimes.
15465. "Would you like to bring your wife out here from China ? It would be very good, but it would be
too expensive to bring her out here, especially as I am not making much money where I am.
15466. Have you been thirteen years following the occupation of a gardener ? Yes.
15467. Is your garden the largest in North "Willoughby? No.
15468. Have you many fruit-trees in your orchard ? One acre of fruit.
15469. If you are suffering a loss all the time, would it not be far better to give it up ? I am bound to
it — I have a lease of the ground.
15470. Cannot you get a purchaser for it ? No.
15471. Have you ever put it in the market for sale ? No ; but I would be very willing to get rid of it if
anyone would take it off my hands.
15472. How is it you are making no profit, seeing that those who are running vegetable gardens in "Waterloo
and Botany are making a very fair thing out of it ? You will find that plenty of them are making no
money. A good many of them have lost a lot of capital.
15473. Do you sell your vegetables cheaper than the Europeans ? No. The English and Chinese all sell
the same price at the markets.
15474. Would it not be a good thing if you could come to some kind of compact with the European
gardeners, so as to get a fair return for the trouble and expense you are put to ? Yes.
15475. Have the Europeans ever been approached on the subject ? No.
15476. Do you consider it would be advisable to approach them? Yes.
15477. I asked that question because you have stated that you have been losing money for the last
five years, and it would be in your interest, and that of the other gardeners in the community, to come to
some arrangements, so that you would all get a better return for your outlay and labour, and make the
general public pay for your losses ? That would be a very good thing.
[The witness withdrew.]
Quin Young, called and examined : —
15478. President] Where do you reside ? At Rushcutters' Bay. Quin Young.
15479. Do you carrv on a market-garden there ? Yes. ^T^^i
15480. How many a'cres do you cultivate ? About 9 acres. 15 Dec, 1891.
15481. Who is your landlord ? Mr. Cooper, I think.
15482. What rent do you pay for the 9 acres ? I pay £80 a quarter.
15483. Your garden is near the bridge at Rushcutters' Bay, is it not ? Yes.
15484.' How long have you been there ? About seven years.
15485. How many men do you employ ? I have about nine men working for me.
15486^ How much a week do you pay them ? Some of them I pay 18s. and some £1 a week.
15487. And you board them, I suppose? Yes. _
15488. How long have you been in this Colony? I have been in Sydney about nine years.
15489! And how long have you been in Australia altogether ? Eighteen years.
15490. Had you any capital when you came here first ? No.
15491. And you have worked hard ever since ? Yes.
15492 How many hours a day do the men work in your garden ? They do not go by the hours so much.
They work from daylight until dark. About this time of the year they would work from thirteen to four-
teen hours a day.
15493. They average from ten to fourteen hours a day i les.
15494 What do you feed them on ? Rice and meat, beef, fish, and other things.
15495.' What does it cost you per week to feed one of your men, on the average ? Erom 10s. to 12s. a
15496 How many rooms are there in the house in which your men sleep ? I think four rooms.
15497.' How many men sleep in one room ? Some four or five sleep in one big room. In the smaller
rooms two sleep. .
15498 Do they smoke opium there ? No, not in my garden.
272—3 G 15499-
"418 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIBENCE.
Quin Young. 15409. Ilavo you an objection to men who smoke opium ? I do not like it.
/-^ * 15500. Is it because it affects their ability to work ? Yes ; I do not think they arc fit to work if they
15 Dec, 1891. gmoke opium.
15501. Do you allow gambling in your garden? No.
15502. When your men have finished their work, do they stop in the house ? Yes. They have to be up
at daylight.
15503. When did you first start business in Sydney ? It is about nine years this Christmas.
15504. What wages did you pay when you first started business ? About 14s. a week.
15505. And now you have to pay 18s. or £1 a week ? Yes.
15506. How is it you have to pay more now ? Because we cannot get the men to work. There are not
so many Chinese now.
15507. Is that by reason of the operation of the poll-tax? I think so,
15508. Do you know anything about the wages your countrymen get at cabinet-making ? No ; I do not
know anything about that.
15509. How do you dispose of the products of your garden — do you send it down to market ? No ; I
supply customers in Sydney.
15510. Do you supply the large hotels ? Some of them.
15511. You do not send your vegetables to market, but get your hawkers to take it direct to your
customers. How many of such hawkers have you employed ? I have two horses and carts, and I have a
shop in Castlereagh-street.
15512. You do not send your stuff to the markets in town much ? No.
15513. What hotels do you supply ? The " G-rosvenor," the "Australia," " Patty's," the " Koyal," the
" Metropolitan," the Union Club, the Australian Club, and I used to supply the EeforM Club.
15514. You send your vegetables direct from the garden every morning to those places ? Yes.
15515. Do you know any other of your countrymen who have the same kind Of business as yourself ? I
know a lot, but they have not so large a business as mine.
15516. Do you know if there are many European market-gardeners ? I know some.
15517. Within 5 miles of Sydney, 1 mean ? I cannot say that. About nine years ago there used to
be a lot, but not now.
15518. There are not so many now as there used to be within a radius of 5 miles of Sydney ? No.
15519. Do your men work on Sundays ? Sometimes ; not often.
15520. They do not pursue their ordinary daily work on Sunday ? No ; they only get ready for Monday
morning.
15521. I suppose they water the garden on Sunday ? Yes ; in the morning.
15522. And in the evening they get the vegetables ready to send to the market the next day ? In the
morning they do that. Sometimes in the afternoon on Sundays they put a little water on them.
15523. As a matter of fact your men do not work of Sundays except for ah hour or two doing what you
consider to be necessary work for the garden, that is, watering and getting ready for the next day's
market ? Yes, that is all.
15524. Do you pay any overtime to your men ? No ; not to my countrymen.
15525. Are all of your men on daily wages ? No ; I have a good many partners in the garden. They
share in the profits.
15526. Do you pay any of your men by piece-work ? No.
15527. Do you pay them regularly every week or month ? Sometimes I pay them by the year, and if
they want any money during the year they come and get it. Sometimes they get it every week.
15528. Is there not an arrangement among the Chinese gardeners by which they fix a price for the
vegetables they sell ? No ; there is nothing like that.
15529. The market prices are regulated by the demand ? Yes.
15530. Can you tell me how many of your countrymen are employed in and around Sydney as market
gardeners ? I cannot tell ; but I know there are a good many.
15531. Do you think there are a thousand — including Waterloo ? Yes ; there are at least a thousand, I
should say.
15532. You have 9 acres of land and about nine men employed ; that is a man to the acre ;— do all other
■gardeners average a man to the acre ? Some of them do not.
15533. Is that about the average ? Yes.
15534. What acreage do you take up as a rule, or what would you consider a good holding ; — have many
of your countrymen more than 9 acres? Yes ; a good many have more than 20 acres.
15535. What rent do your countrymen pay at Waterloo ? They get their land very cheap. I pay more
than any of them. Some of the gardens out Waterloo way now are held very cheap. But gardeners
cannot make touch now ; wages are too high.
15536. In cases where Chinamen have had to give up their gardens because they could not pay the rent,
and the gardens have been allowed to go to ruin, have other Chinamen taken those gardens up ? In some
cases.
15537. Supposing one of your people abandon a garden because the rent is too high, would another of
your countrymen come in and take it up at the old rent ? No.
15538. Is that because of a compact among the Chinese not to come into competition with one another in
this way ? No.
15539. Do the Chinese send many vegetables from the country, this side of Bathurst, especially such
places as Penrith ? Yes ; they send some from' Bathurst and Orange.
15540. What vegetables do they send down ? Cabbages chiefly, and pumpkins in the season.
15541. Do they send down any potatoes ? No.
15542. On the southern line — from Goulburn, for instance; would there be much sent down ? Yes ; a
good deal from Goulburn.
15543. The same class of vegetables, I suppose, but chiefly cabbages ? Yes ; but sometimes they are sent
up from here.
15544. Do you know anything about the vegetable trade from Melbourne ? Yes, I know something.
15545. What comes from Melbourne ? Cauliflower chiefly.
15546. Are they all grown by Chinese? No; some are grown by Chinesrj, but the most are grown by
Englishmen. 15547.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OP EVIDENCE., 419'
i rrf 1' ijf ^at sort of manure do you use ? Stable manure. Quin Young.
i r ka y°U USe an^ Done-dust ? Sometimes. / * x
i r tin' v°W much a year do y°u use ? Not so much now- Perhaps 4 or 5 tons a year. 15 Dec-> 189i^
lo550. You use a lot of horse dung? Yes. J ..<••-.-
15551. Do you use human excreta or urine ? No.
in the" roufd d° 7°U d° ^ ^ humm Waste from ?oviv own establishment ? Take it away and bury it
i W?a n£0t ^ waste£ul ? I am to° near the people that pass to- use it for manure for the garden.
Melbourne thTSe 7<T ^ ^ * M ^^ g°°d mauure' I suPPose? It; is veiT Sood manure. In
15555. I suppose if you used the human waste you could smell it from the road ? Yes ; you could smell
it a hali-a-mile off. •
H5^' ¥r- ■Myatt-'] How many partners have you ? I have four partners.
i «r to ™ y lncluded iji these nine men you have spoken of ? Yes.
15o58. lhen you have your partners and five wage men? Yes.
15559. And have they all been with you for nine years ? Yes.
15560. Have you found it profitable work ? Sometimes there is not much profit. The rent is too high.
loobl. You have said that you pay more rent than any of the other gardeners ;— how is that ? Because
the gardens are so near to Sydney.
15562. Is it not because the soil is very rich ? Yes ; the ground is very good too.
15563. About how much profit do you make per year among the four of you ? We cannot make much :
about £50 a year each.
15564. That is not more than you are paying the men who are working for you ? ]STo.
15565. "Were you a gardener in China ? No.
15566. What would men such as you employ as gardeners receive as wages in China ? Not much. Not
more than 4s. or 5s. a month.
15567. What would it cost to keep a man in China the same as you keep your men here ? Food is very
cheap there. They could be fed for about 3d. a day.
14568. Could you feed the same as' you feed them here for that ? Yes.
15569. Then it costs you four times as much to feed a man here as it would in China ? Yes.
15570. And the wage you give them here is twenty times as great as you would pay in China ? Yes.
15571. Are you a married man ? Yes ; my wife is in China.
15572. Would you bring your wife here if the poll-tax were taken off ? Yes.
15573. Have you any family? I have one boy. I may say I am naturalised in Victoria. I was
naturalised eleven years ago.
15574. Mr. Hawthorne.'] How long have you been out here ? Eighteen years.
15575. How long have you been in New South Wales ? Nine years.
1557G. You stated just now, in answer to Mr. Abigail, that you would bring your wife out here only for
the poll-tax ? Yes.
15577. But the poll-tax was not always on ? No ; but before that I could not afford it. I had no money.
15578. How is it that you have made all your money since the poll-tax was put on ? Well, sometimes I
have been a little lucky, you know.
15579. I understood you to say just now that you only made £50 a year profit ? I was then referring to
the garden. I have made money in my business outside of that.
15580. Mr. Abigail.'] You have not seen your wife for eighteen years ? No.
15581. And you have not had a European wife here during that time ? No.
15582. What other business have you in Sydney ? Only supplying vegetables.
15583. Are you not a member of any syndicate owning any kind of property or business in Sydney ?
No. " •
15584. Have you any interest in any garden besides the one you have mentioned ? Yes ; I have an
interest in one in Guildford. There are 10 acres.
15585. How many people are employed on it ? Eive men.
15586. How do you pay them? They are paid 18s. and £1 a week.
15587. What is done with the produce of the garden ? It is sent down to me.
15588. Then you do not grqw all the vegetables necessary to supply your customers at the liushcutters'
Bay garden? No ; I could not grow it in four or five gardens.
■15589. You must buy some also ? Yes.
15590. Then, in buying and selling you make a profit ; — is it not a mistake to say that you only make £50
a year profit ? I have told you that is only out of the garden. Sometimes I make £300 a year, and
sometimes £400 or £500 a year.
15591. What do you make it out of ? My business.
■15592. Well, what is your business ? I have also a poultry-farm.
15593. Where is it ? At Kogarah.
15594. What is the extent of it ? It is a very big one— about 50 acres.
15595. How many people have you employed on that ? Five.
15596. How much do you pay them ? I pay them 10s. a week there.
15597. Do thev have the run of the poultry ? Yes.
15598. They have the right to kill and eat the poultry ;— is that included in the bill of fare ? Yes ; they
can take what they want.
15599. Have you got the poultry-farm and the garden at Guildford to yourself ? In the poultry-farm I
have a partner. The Guildford place is my own. I have sunk £300 in the poultry -farm.
15600. Out of what did you make the £300 that you sunk in the poultry-farm ? Out of the vegetable
business.
15601. Have you any other business now ? No.
15602. Are you saving up for the purpose of getting money enough to go home to China ? If I save
money I will go home.
15603. About how much money would you think sufficient for you to go home with ? I cannot be
satisfied yet.
1 15601.
420 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Qum Young. ioG04. You must liave some notion as to what sum would suffice you. Supposing you had £1,000 would
-tT"A"'iroi y°u R0 nome with that ? I would uot now.
ec, 15605. Are you going to stop here ? I want to make more.
15606. Do not you think you have a right to send for your wife and bring her here, now that you have
become a citizen of the country ? It would take a lot of trouble to bring her hero.
15607. Comparing the condition of your men here with the condition of the samo class of men in your
country, which country would you say is the best ? This country is the best.
15608. Tou have no doubt about that ? No.
15609. Have you any fault to find with the laws of this country ? No.
15610. Are you well treated under the laws ? Yes.
15611. Do you ever visit the gambling-houses ? No.
15612. Have you seen your countrymen opium-smoking? I have seen them sometimes.
15613. Do you know anything about the effects of opium-smoking upon people who indulge in it? I do
not. I have not much time to visit these people. I do most of my business with the Europeans.
15614. Mr. Quong Tart,'] You have some of the best customers in Sydney ? Yes. I am very well
satisfied with my customers in Sydney.
15615. You sell superior goods ? Yes. If I did not I should lose my customers. But I have never
lost a customer since I came to Sydney.
15610. The goods you serve your customers with have nothing to do with the partnership in Eushcutters'
Bay ? No, this is my own business.
15617. The vegetables you supply to these places you buy from the garden at Eushcutters' Bay ? Yes
and I keep regular accounts with all the gardens to see how I stand.
15618. You employ five Chinese ? Yes.
15619. How long have they been, in your employ ? A good while. Some of the men go away perhaps
in about twelve months, but my partners never go away.
15620. When your Chinese workmen leave you what do they do ? Sometimes they go to work on another
garden and sometimes they go home.
15621. Have you ever been charged by European gardeners with underselling them ? No.
15622. You say you work from twelve to sixteen hours a day ; — what price, wholesale, do you sell the
cabbages from Eushcutters' Bay ? Erom 6d. to 3s. per dozen.
15623. Now, if you worked eight hours a day on the garden, what price could you sell cabbages at ? It
would depend upon the market price.
15624. But assuming that the law compelled you to work eight hours a day what price could you, sell
cabbages at then ? I should have to charge Is. each for them.
15625. Mr. Hawtliorne.] If that be so, how is it that we used to get vegetables at a less price than that
before the Chinese came ? Of course it would depend upon the seasons.
15626. Do you think Europeans could grow cabbages with a very dry season? I do not think so.
15627. Can the Chinese do so? Yes, They like it. They carry 'the water three times a day. The
Europeans will not do that.
15628. Mr. Abigail.] The Chinese put more labour into the work than the Europeans will do ? Yes.
They are used to it in China.
15629. Mr. Quong Tart] The Europeans complain that the Chinese gardeners work on Sunday ; — is that
true, and if so, what kind of work do they do ? They wash their shirts, and do everything of "that kind.
15630. Do they do much gardening ? No, not much gardening. My men do not.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr.
T. A. Smith
Thomas Augustus Smith called and examined : —
15631. Mr. Abigail] You are an alderman of the borough of Botany, Mr. Smith ? Yes.
^^j^^ 15632. "What business do you carry on ? I am a market-gardener.
15 Dec 1891* 156'^3- What is the extent of your garden ? Ten acres.
15634. How many men have you employed on it ? Three.
15635. Are they Europeans ? Two of them are Europeans and one is a Chinese.
15636. "What wages do you pay ? The Chinese I pay 26s. a week.
15637. Do you also keep him in board ? No.
15638. And what do you pay the Europeans ? They get 18s. a week and their food.
15639. Do the Chinese perform the same class of work as the Europeans ? Yes ; equally so, I should say,
from what I have seen during five years.
15640. What hours do they generally work ? If they work for a European like myself they work from
6 to 6 o'clock, and no longer. The only meal they have during working hours is between 11-30 and half-past
1 o'clock.
15641. What class of vegetables do you produce, Mr. Smith ? Cabbages, cauliflowers, cucumbers, carrots,
and so on.
15642. Have you any customers that you supply in the city of Sydney ? Not in the city of Sydney.
15643. Do you find it a profitable business ? Yes ; I have done so since I have taken it in hand and I
have been at gardening thirty-four years and a half.
15644. Have you found any difficulty arising from the keen competition of Chinese vegetable growers ?
Slightly ; not to any considerable extent.
15645.- You have not had much cause to complain ? No ; not as yet.
15646. In raising your vegetables do you use the same manure as the Chinese, namely, animal manure ?
JN o ; they use human manure very largely ; I use horse manure.
15647. Are you in a position to tell us whether the component parts of human manure are more iniurious
to vegetables than other animal manure ? I do not know that it is. If it is dug into the ground it should
?r^oe- -J* j c™e, ■ ? S Tl[ take UP a11 the component parts before the vegetables can receive it.
ioGi,?- y°u d° not think typhoid fever could be transmitted to human beings by vegetables grown or
fertilised by this manure ? No. It has been extensively used in parts of Botany, and I have nevlr known
any case ot typhoid iever m that place yet, and I have been there thirty-seven years
15649 Have you known many vegetable gardens to be given up by Europeans because they could not
make them pay ? No ; but I have known them to sell out to Chinese for the purpose of making a profit.
15650.
Chinese gambling commission— minutes of evidence. 421
15650. Not because they could not work them ? No ; merely as a matter of profit to themselves. I Mr. .
might have sold out to profit myself, because I was offered the" opportunity, but I would not accept it. T- A- Smith,
15651. Tou could make it pay? Yes. At the same time I have no occasion to work now. I have suffi- <'~^A- — »
cient now. I do not say that it is altogether the ground that has produced my independence. It is other 15 Dec'' 1891,
things ; but I could have gained sufficient from that.
15652. So far as you are concerned your garden has proved profitable, and you can work it profitably now ?
les.
15653. Do your men work on Sunday, Mr. Smith ? No.
15654 Do the Chinese gardeners work on Sundav? les; they all do in that neighbourhood. I may
state that some three or four years ago they were working on the road on Sunday— making a road from
the main road to their premises— and I drew the policeman's attention to them, the consequence of which
was that they were fined for so doing.
15655. Mr. Hawthorne.'] I suppose they were making these by-roads on the Sunday simply so that they
would lose no time on the week day ? That was their idea undoubtedly.
15656. They have no respect for Sunday? No, it would appear not. They knock off work at any hour
about our neighbourhood, and get up their loads of produce on Sunday night.
15657. Tou sayyou have only one Chinaman at work in your place. Do the Europeans work the same
hours as the Chinamen ? They have their half hour for breakfast, and one hour at dinner-time.
15658. Which do you find the more industrious class of workmen, the Europeans or Chinese ? I must say
that the Chinaman is more industrious and attentive to his work. He does not go away drinking or any-
thing of that kind.
15659. In other words I suppose you can place more reliance upon the Chinaman as a workman than
you can upon a European ? Yes.
15660. If you find the Chinese so much better as workmen than the Europeans how is it that you have
confined yourself to one Chinaman ? The reason is that my wife likes to have some Europeans about the
place. There are other things to do in connection with the place which the Chinamen do not care about
doing — work about the house.
15661. Are there many other gardeners in the district besides yourself? There are Mr. Hamlin and Mr.
Hudson, no others that I know of.
15662. "Were all the gardens now occupied by Chinese in existence and worked by Europeans previous to
the Chinese going there ? Yes.
1 5663. What is the cause of the Europeans thus supplanted by the Chinese ; — is it that the Chinese are
gradually working the Europeans out of the market, by more zealous work, or that the Europeans are
getting tired of gardening? I think some of them have got tired of gardening, and some of them have
retired from it altogether — that is, the aged men.
15664. In the case of |a dry season do you insist upon your men adopting the same method of watering
the plants as the Chinese gardeners have ? No they cannot carry out the process the same as the Chinese ;
if they use anything in that way it is a yoke, not a stick.
15665. When you take your vegetables to market do you find that there is a greater demand for European
than Chinese-grown vegetables? I do not think so. Some people will ask for them, but it is hard to say
which they do get after all. >
15666. You come into town three times a week ? Yes.
15667. When the greengrocers come to ask for vegetables do they show any preference for European-
grown vegetables at all ? Some of them do.
15668. How do you regulate the prices — are they uniform as a rule ? No. We regulate our own prices
to a large extent.
15669. Supposing that you are in No. 1 stall of the markets, and in No. 2 and No. 3 stalls you have a
Chinese cart on either side of you, do you endeavour to ascertain the price the Chinamen are going to
charge, so as to regulate yours by that standard, or do you name a price of your own ? No. Sometimes
we inquire what they intend to ask, and then if we think fit we can raise our price above it.
15670. Then supposing you ask 5s. a dozen for cabbages, and the Chinese ask the same, would you find
the customers patronise you in preference to the Chinese ? No. I have seen them sometimes buy more
freely from the Chinamen.
15671. You are, I suppose, a pretty good judge of vegetables ? Yes, I ought to be.
15672. G-enerally speaking, how do European-grown vegetables compare with those grown by the Chinese?
It all depends upon the ground. They use what is called a " soup," and where this is used, particularly
in wet weather, or when there has been a dewy night, the vegetables decay very soon.
15673. Could you go up to a cart-load of vegetables and pick out those which have been forced in their
growth ? Yes, I could.
15674. Do you think they are as beneficial to the human frame as those grown more naturally ? No ; I
do not think so ; because it is not natural for them to grow so fast. For instance, cucumbers that are
grown in a hot-house are not nearly so good as those which have been grown in the proper season under
natural conditions.
15675. Have you noticed an offensive smell coming from Chinese vegetables ? No.
15676. Do you think it possible to force cabbages as the Chinese do their vegetables, without their showing
evidences of the manure used in the forcing process ? I have not found anything of the kind yet, and I
have cut some thousands of their vegetables.
15677. Do you think it contrary to the laws of nature that whatever manure is used, it should show itself
in the' stalk of the cabbage ? I think it is impossible if the manure is used in the ground as it should be,
and as I believe they do. It must decompose before the vegetable can absorb it.
15678. Take it for granted that I went to-day, intending to make a living, and took up 10 acres of land
at Botany, could I rely upon that as being likely to support me in twelve months from now, by diligent
work ? Not in twelve months from now if it was new land. It would be impossible with new land.
15679. Say I took up a few acres of bush land in Botany, how long would it be before that land was
ready for cultivation ? It would be twelve months before any vegetables could come to the market from it.
15680. Mr. Abiqail.~] You evidently do not think it is possible to arrive at that in six months. I may tell
you that it has been stated to us here that within six months vegetables have been grown from virgin
soil in a flourishing condition ? With new land I have never beard of such a thing.
15681.
422 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 15G81. Do you know a garden at the tram terminus at Botany ? Yes.
T. A. Smith. 15682. l)o you know that that land was brought under cultivation, and vegetables brought to tnarkej;
./Tr01""^ from it within six months ? That was old land. The ground had been worked for many years before.
15 Ucc, 1BJ1. Ifc had been thoroughly tillcd
15683. If the Chinaman who owns that land now, and who has tilled, has stated that ho brought the land
to its present state of perfection in sis months, would he be stating what is contrary to fact, do you think ?
They could not do it in those swamps. The ground would be all sour.
15G84. Could it not be effected with the aid of manure ? No ; you could not swoeton the ground in six
months with all the manure you could put in it.
15GS5. Do you use any other kind but horse manure ? No.
15GHG. Tou do not use any of the refuse from the boiling-down establishment ? No.
15687. I suppose you have seen the methods employed by some of these Chinese gardeners ? Tes ; they
have liquid manure in pots. A filthy smell arises from this, in the pits and tubs round tho pig places.
15688. What is the reason the Europeans have such an aversion to using that particular kind of manure,
which is so much used by the Chinese ? I cannot say what the reason is.
15G89. Is it because they cannot stand the smell, do you think ? Some of them could stand anything.
15690. Does your council never raise any objection to the nuisance arising from these Chinese places
from which the unpleasant smells arise such as you have described ? "We have an inspector to go round.
I called attention to it last meeting night, and the inspector will go round in a fortnight to inspect the
Chinese dwellings.
15691. Is it the intention of the council to condemn the practice of keeping these open pits of manure ?,
Yes.
15692. You might direct his attention to the sanitary condition of the residences while you are about it ?
Yes.
15693. Mr. Quong Tart.'] You say some Chinese offered to buy your garden ? Yes.
15694. Were you offered a liberal sum ? Yes ; a fair sum.
15695. Then if other Europeans like yourself like to stick to their gardens they could make a good living
out of them ? That is what I maintain — if they had not sold out their places they could be there now doing
well. It was not the Chinese drove them away — they sold their places for profit.
15696. How many Europeans receive rent from Chinamen at Botany do you think ? There is Mr. Eichard
Hill, and Mr. George Hill, Mr. Lobb, Mr. Britchinghome, Mr. Wright, and Mrs. Whesker. In Mr. Hill's
place there is a great mob of them.
15697. What rent do they receive do you know ? Mr. Lobb receives £1 a week. Mr. Wright has 10,
acres which are under cultivation by Chinese ; they only pay 10s. a week.
15698. If the Chinese were to clear out of Botany altogether do you think many Europeans would take
up the land for the purpose of going into the pursuit of gardening ? They might. There were a goo^
many Europeans there before the Chinese came and bought them out.
15699. Did most of the Chinese who now occupy gardens in Botany purchase from Europeans ? Yes,
principally, although they have opened some new land.
15700. Have you ever known of cabbage being sent over from Victoria ? Yes.
15701. How do they compete with the local producers, sending all that way ? I do not know. But they
do it.
15702. Are those Chinese-grown cabbages that come from Victoria ? Some of them. It is not always
the case.
15703. I suppose you have heard of Chinese gardeners using human manure and urine ? Yes ; I have
heard of it.
15704. They sprinkle it over the vegetables ; — do you think it is injurious to the health of consumers of
such vegetables ? Used in that way — sprinkling it over the vegetables — I should think it would be.
15705. You have seen the large earthen-jars in which they make water ? Yes ; I have seen them make
a hole in the side of a plant, and pour the liquid with a pot or mug, and then cover it over again. I have
heard of it being sprinkled over the plants, but have not seen it.
15706. D° you think cabbages grown by Europeans are more solid and substantial than the Chinese-
grown cabbages ? There should be no difference if the plant is grown with manure, and given proper
time to mature. It is the forcing of the growth that injures the plant.
15707. And that practice is largely carried out by the Chinese, I believe ? Yes, always.
15708. Are there a number of European gardeners that dispose of their vegetables in the markets ?
There may be one hundred European gardeners.
15709. Then they are on the increase ? Yes.
15710. Twelve months ago there were not so many ? No ; there were then about sixty.
15711. Can you suggest any reason for the increase ? The only reason I can suggest is that the Chinese
leave them, and the Europeans have to take their own gardens up. Some of them have had to, because
they could not let the ground to anybody else.
15712. The heavy poll-tax has the effect of preventing fresh Chinamen from coming in to take up new
ground ? There can be no doubt about that.
15713. Do the Chinese go in for much fruit-growing ? Not at Botany. They cannot grow fruit there —
it is too close to the sea.
15714. Do they grow fruit in other places ? Yes, a great many of them have oranges and apples at the
markets.
15715. Do you think they grow them themselves ? I do not know whether they are employed as workers
on the place where they are grown, or whether they grow them themselves.
15716. How many European gardens are there at Botany ? Three — Mr. Hamlyn's, Mr. Hudson's, and
Mr. Stevens', jun., a working gardener.
15717. Do any of the European gardeners there employ Chinese? Mr. Searle, the florist, does.
15718. How many does he employ ? Five of them.
15719. Does Mr. Hamlyn or Mr. Stevens ? Mr. Stevens does not ; Mr. Hamlyn does sometimes, when
he requires extra work done.
15720. Is it not possible that some compact could be arrived at between the Europeans and Chinese, so
as to enable them to sell their vegetables at a profit ? I do not see how they could attain that.
15721.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES 0¥ ETIDENCE. 423
]f^' ^ Chinese market gardener has stated here that he has been losing money for the last five years, • Mr.
dn ™f 1 thaVa a reasonable statement in view of your experience? I cannot say, because I T.A.Smith,
with Lthem V ether there is mudl dePendence to be placed upon them. I never had much dealings 1f^^1
™ wiiS ** practical g^dener, do you think it credible that a man with 8 acres of land, paying a rent of
fm Z ™*L VTiu* i ""IPkying six Chinamen besides himself, could have been losing money for the last
E7^?rt thm* rt'imP°MiW? that he could lose money all that time, unless he had a bank at his
back, and they would not allow him to go on so far
S?p„ISvC01"Sdev1i V°TM ^impossible that a man could goon losing for four or five years under
those conditions ? Yes. I may state that I was told of a case in which some Chinese at Mittagong paid
rtl ^QnnSlmt0 a Prden °f-}1 acres of land> and paid 25s. a week rent, and in five years they cleared off
the £300, besides having paid the rent, and bought one of the partners" out. Certainly they had some
^°oI aTY3 7^? "imagine, when they got £25 a ton for potatoes.
not been so bad f°Ur °r fiv° jearS the seasons have not been so ve,7 bad ? This one has
iK" ?° JT ™e>ne-dust ? Yes ; it is a good fertiliser.
\rltn ^T\l Chlnese ln the habit of using large quantities of bone-dust ? Yes.
iHil' v° J USe any gUan° °Ut tbere ? No ; i1: is t0° expensive now.
15/.4S. Xou say you pay your European workmen 18s. a week, and find them, and the Chinaman 2Gs. a
week, without board ? Yes.
ir*qn ^6 th^ EuroPeans y°unS men? One is about 2G years of age, and the other is a middle-aged man. *
±o73U. lney have been engaged at the work for some time, I suppose? Yes; they are experienced
gardeners. rL
1573L President 'j I understood you to say that the European gardeners have nothing to fear from the
™|™on ?* .tb-e Chinese, or words to that effect, is that so ? Yes ; I have never cause to fear it.
15732. And it is your opinion, arrived at after very careful thought, that the cry that the Chinese drive
the white men out of that particular avocation, is not warranted by your experience ? Yes ; I am of that
15733. Do you know anything about the Chinese cabinet-makers ? No ; T know nothing about them.
15734. Mr. Quong Tart.] If you were compelled to work eight hours a day on your garden, could you
sell your cabbages as cheap as you do now ? No.
[The witness withdrew.]
Ah Covey called and examined : —
15735. President.'] Where do you live ? At Eose Bay. Ah Covey.
15736. What are you ? A market gardener. ^-w-a^-s
15737. How many acres of land do you cultivate ? Eive acres. 15 Dec, 1891.
15738. Who is your landlord ? Mr. Henry Cooper.
15739. What rent do you pay ? £50 a year.
15740. How many men have you working for you ? Eive.
15741. What wages do you pay them ? £L a week, and their keep.
15742. What does their keep cost you per week ? About 10s.
15743. What do you feed them on? Beef, rice, fish ; sometimes oysters, and other things.
15744. How many hours do they work ? Erom daylight to dark.
15745. Do you work on Sundays ? No.
15746. Not to water the vegetables ? Yes, for that.
15747. Do not you take up the vegetables on Sundays to be ready for the market ? No.
15748. What kind of manure do you use ? Horse dung from the 'bus Company.
15749. Do not you use human manure or urine ? No.
15750. Do not you use it in liquid form to sprinkle over the vegetables ? No.
15751. Not for lettuce ? No ; nothing but horse dung.
15752. How many years have you been in this country ? Twenty years.
15753. How long have you been on the garden ? About eight years.
15754. What garden were you in before ? I had a garden in Wollongong.
15755. Have you any partner in the garden you have now ? No.
15756. The five men working for you are on a weekly wage ? Yes.
15757. Does the garden pay you well ? No. Everything is soiling too cheap.
15758. Have you been losing money ? Yes.
15759. Where do you get the money to pay for your losses? Some of the Chinese merchants trust me.
I book everything ; and when I have a good season I pay them back.
15760. How many bad seasons have you had ? Last year was a bad season, and this year was a bad
season ; too much wet weather.
15761. You like the dry weather ? Yes ; I like the dry weather best.
15762. The market price goes up ? Yes.
15763. Which are the best class of vegetables, Chinese or Europeans ? I think they are all the same.
15764. Have you any fruit-trees in your place ? No.
15765. Are you married ? Yes.
15766. Where were you married ? In Sydney.
15767. Where do you live ? On the garden — my wife lives with me.
15768. How long have you been married ? Seven years.
15769. Have you got any children ? No,
15770. Are any of your men on the garden married ? No.
15771. Do any white women go out to see them ? No.
15772. Would you allow it ? No.
15773. Do any of your men smoke opium ? No.
15774. Would you hare a man working for you who smoked opium ? No.
15775. Why ? Because he would not be able to do his work.
15776. Do you approve of fan- tan playing ? No ; it is no good. 15777.
4,24 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Ah Covey. 15777. Do they go in for pak-ah-pu tickets ? I do not think so ; I do not see much of my countrymen.
' »-^\ 15778. You keep to yourself ? Yes.
15 Dec, 1891. 15779. And knock about with the white men out there ? Yes.
15780. Are there many Chinese gardens round about Sydney now ? Yes, a good few.
15781. Have not a lot of them given up ? About eighty-five have given up.
157S2. Since when? I cannot tell you the time— but 1 think about two or three years altogether.
15783. Are the men who have given up gardening still in the Colony ? Yes ; they go to look for other
jobs, to work for wages.
15784. Have you been to Botany or "Waterloo ? At one time— about ten years ago.
15785. Have you not been there since ? No.
1578G. Do you know if some of your countrymen at Waterloo and Botany use human manure and urine ?
I know what you mean, but I have never seen it.
15787. What is the best manure ? I think the best manure is horse dung and bone-dust.
[The witness withdrew.]
15 Dec, 1891.
Lee Hing Loong called and examined : —
Lee 15788. President.] "Where do you reside ? At North "Willoughby.
Hing Loong. 15739. Are you a market-gardener ? Yes.
15790. How many acres have you got ? Ten acre3.
15791. "What rent do you pay ? Seventy pounds a year.
15792. Who is your landlord ? Mr. Forsyth.
15793. How many men have you got working for you ? Ten altogether— six shareholders and four wage
men.
15794. What wages do you pay the men ? One pound a week and their keep.
15795. What does it cost to keep your men per head per week ? About 8s. per man.
15796. How long have you been cultivating that garden ? About ten years.
15797. Have you made much monoy out of the garden ? I made profit for three years, and lost for three
years — about equal. I would give it up only I have a good landlord.
15798. What do you feed your men on ? Fish, beef, pork and vegetables, and rice.
15799. How many hours a day do you and your men work ? We work from daylight until dark. In the
middle of the day we do not work, because it would damage the plants, so we work later' at night; we
average about ten hours.
15800. Is it a fact that a number of women visit your garden from time to time? No; my landlord is
very careful. He would not allow anything of that kind.
15801. Do they play fan-tan there ? No.
15802. Or smoke opium ? No.
15803. Where do you sell your vegetables ? At the markets. I send them across in a cart.
15804. Do you cross in a punt ? Yes.
15805. You send all your vegetables to the market ? Yes.
15806. How do you fertilise your garden ? We use manure.
15807. Human manure ? No ; I do not use that.
15808. Is not that as good as other kinds ? No ; it will not do.
15809. Mr. Abigail.'] It is not because you have heard that the people who buy your vegetables would
not do so if they thought you used human manure ? I do not know about that, I do not use it. All I
use is bone-dust.
15810. Were you a gardener in China ? No. I was a farmer.
15811. What would be the wages in China £>f such men as you employ here ? They would be very
low ; the men are better off here.
15812. How much would it cost to keep a man in China ? About 4d. a day.
15813. You have no doubt you are much better off here than you would be in China? No.
15814. Are you a married man ? Yes.
15815. Have you got your wife with you ? No ; she is in China.
15816. Have you not had a European wife here ? No.
15817. Do you ever visit any of the gambling-houses in Lower Greorge-street, or other parts of Sydney ?
No ; I have too much work to do.
[The witness withdrew.]
WEDNESDAY, 16 DECEMBER, 1891.
Jfrmnt: —
The Mayor op Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Peesident.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., j QUONG- TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. Kenneth McKenzie called and examined : —
Mr. _ 15818. Mr. Abigail^] Where do you live ? At 236, Pitt-street.
K. McKenzie. 15819. And what business do you carry on ? I have a furniture warehouse.
irn^^iHQi 15^0. ^ou nave Deen m ^at lme of business for many years, have you not? In conjunction with my
10 Dec, 1891. fathor I have. We have been living about there since 1847.
- 15821. Well, now it has been alleged that the furniture trade has been nearly crushed by Chinese
furniture-manufacturers, and we want you to give us the result of your experience bearing upon that point ?
I have not had a great deal to do with the Chinese at all. My line of business lies in jobbing work. I
have no show of competing with the big warehouses in Sydney now. I have not sufficient capital to do a
time payment trade, so that I do very little business through the shop. My experience of the Chinese
is therefore very limited. I have had a little to do with them, but very little indeed.
15822.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIBENCE. 425
15822. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that most of the large sellers of furniture buy articles from the Mr.
^tunese to retail to the public ? Well, as a matter of fact, how could I know a thing like that ; I could not K- McKennis.
i -qoq v1 i ^ctua% Siw tllat Chinese make the goods and take them there themselves ? ,eC^C
loSAJ Exactly, that may be ; but have you heard it said that most of the large furniture sellers do buy 16Dee> l89L
?2qo. nm Chlnese ? Yes, I have heard it ; and I have seen Chinese make goods in their warehouses.
a t *U ?°? US what 1S the class of goods the Chmese are in the habit of making, are they really
goods or nrst-class quality ? No, I do not think that you can call any of the Chinese work first class, not
even their best. As a practical man I would not call it first class. I am speaking now, of course, of
Unnese-made goods m comparison with European-made goods. Of course there are degrees in the quality
frsosw"^ de furniture Some make a better class of goods than others.
lo825. Would this inferiority that you speak of in Chinese-made goods arise through their putting them
together in a more speedy and slipshod manner, or in the fact that they use a poorer class of material ?
Iheir system in doing the work is altogether different from that of European cabinet-makers. It cannot
?rcoc w aS Str°?g aS EuroPcan furniture because they put it together in an entirely different way.
1582b Have you heard of them making furniture out of packiug-cases and old timber of that kind for
example ? Oh, yes ; I have seen furniture such as kitchen tables and dressers, at any rate, made out of
packmg-cases. I have seen this kind of stuff in the auction marts, and in other places, as I have been
going through the streets.
15827. Do I understand you to say that anybody purchasing goods of 'that kind is virtually throwing his
money away ? Well, yes ; but it serves them right, that is all I have got to say about it. They pay a
low price, and get an essentially cheap article.
15828. Haye you any knowledge as to the particular class of customers who purchase goods of that kind?
I do not think they are limited to any particular class. All classes, I believe, purchase Chinese-made
goods occasionally. Of course the general run of persons who purchase from the Chinese are dealers
who sell to country people, and so on ; but, as a matter of fact, 1 have seen many people in the middle
walks of life purchasing Chinese-made furniture.
15829. Do you think that the buyer understands that it is Chinese-made furniture that be is purchasing ?
Well, I can hardly say ; I do not think that the people who sell that class of furniture want to let their
customers know that it is Chinese-made furniture— not as a rule.
15830. Do you think it would bo a wise provision in the law if we were to make the Chinese stamp all
the furniture they make. You know that in London all articles are stamped ? Well, I can hardly answer
that question — experience will be able to teach us how it works.
15831. In London, for example, a piece of furniture if made in Germany would have to be stamped as
having been made there, and thus when you go into a shop in England to buy any description of article
whatever, you know exactly where it has been made, whether in England, in Scotland, or on the Continent ?
Well, it might be a good thing ; judging from what you have just said, I should think it would be. At
any rate it would show the people what they were getting, and if they cbose to buy Chinese-made furniture,
they would buy it at their own risk.
15832. You think that at present many people buy Chinese furniture without being told, and without
suspecting that it is Chinese made ? Yes, I think so ; I am quite sure that many people have bought
Chinese-made furniture because they have been told that it was not Chinese-made, and that they have
afterwards found out to t'leir sorrow that it was.
15833. Is there much European-made furniture in Sydney ? I think there is a tendency among the
bigger shops to make a better class of furniture. There are .several G-erman firms, for example, in the
neighbourhood of the Golden Grove Estate, who make some very good furniture, quite equal to the very
hest English furniture.
1 5834. And do they employ German mechanics.? They employ mechanics of all nationality, except
Chinese. I know Scotchmen working there, and one man who is of Scotch parents and American born,
and I know one man who is a native of New Zealand, working there also.
15835. Do you know anything about the wages that European journeymen get in Sydney ? I think about
9s. for eight hours.
15836. That is considered a good wage ? A man who was employed by my father and myself for four-
teen years is now working at Vader Shaw's, out at the Golden Grove Estate. I was speaking to him the
other day,, and he told me that sometimes he worked day-work, and sometimes piece-work. He
said that he sometimes had to work very hard there, but he is a really good tradesman ; you could not
put him wrong in our business.
15837. Then you think there is a tendency to, improvement in the trade as far as European furniture is
concerned ? I think there is now a tendency to manufacture a better class of goods, and amongst the
better class of people to buy a better kind of furniture, but I do not think that that is at all noticeable
amongst the poorer class.
15838. Does not that tendency arise by a desire on the part of the people te furnish their houses with a
class of goods more in keeping with their greater prosperity and their improved condition generally ? I
can hardly answer that, but I should think it would be so. You naturally expect to see people improve
their surroundings as they progress in the world.
15839. Have you heard any very strong complaints made by the European furniture trade as to the
competition they suffer from at the hands of the Chinese ? You are referring, I presume, to other people
who are in our trade?
15840. Yes. To other European furniture-makers. Have you heard any of the mechanics, for example,
say they could not get a living in consequence of the large amount of Chinese competition they suffer
from ? Yes ; I have heard the mechanics complain about this. I have heard them say that owing to the
competition of the Chinese there is not the same amount of work for the Europeans to do.
15841. That applies, of course, to those engaged in making the commoner class of furniture? I do not
mean absolutely bad furniture, but the cheaper class of furniture.
15842. Do you know anything yourself of the condition of the Chinese-furniture makers as to how they
live and so on ? Very little indeed ; I have never been in more than two or three Chinese furniture-shops
in my life and then it has only been for five or ten minutes. If I am ever asked for anything in the shape
of Chinese-made furniture by people requiring a cheap article, I say that I have not got it, feut can get it
for them, and I generally go round to Sue Hing Long's, in Elizabeth-street. He is one of the better
class of Chinese furniture-makers. He could not very well carry on a shoddy trade living so near th.4
public thoroughfare as he does. It is too conspicuous. 15843.
272— 3 H
#>6 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 15843. Hare you seen the men working there and. been through their sleeping accommodation ? "Well,
K. McKentfe. j; have seen them working there; they have pretty fair shops there now; but, as a rule, their sleeping
lfiTT^^iMi accommodation would not suit Europeans. They do not seem to like air to get in anywhere. There is a
Id Dec, 1891. j.errijj]e ]ac]{ 0f ventilation about their places.
15S14. Quite so. They look upon ventilation as an enemy, do they not? Tes, the first thing Sue Hing
Long does when I go into his place is to open the window for me.
15845. You are not an employer of labour at the present time, are you ? Yes, I keep a couple of young
fellows on, and sometimes I have three working for me.
1584(5. But that, I suppose, is not so much in connection with your furniture-making business as your
furniture-selling business ? I make a little furniture up if I havo order work just to keep the young
fellows employed ; but in that sort of work I consider that if I get my money back I am very lucky.
15847. But if you were compelled by force of circumstances to confine your labours to furniture-making
altogether, how then ? I do not think that I should be able to pay my rent. I think that I should snuff
out, to use a vulgarism.
15848. Is that result contributed to by the Chinese who, as you say, make a cheaper class of furniture ? I
think so. And by these time-payment places also. It is right in the hands of the trade — this Chinese-
made furniture.
15849. They sell things, I suppose, at a very small profit ? Oh ! I think so, sometimes ; though at other
times they like a fair profit. The Chinese are just like other trades-people who hold on as long as they
can for a good price, if they have a little capital.
15850. Do you know the wages that are paid by the Chinese ? Well I have heard it said that in some of
the better class shops that men get as much as 36s. a week.
15851. Yes, from £1 to 36s. a week, and in addition to that they are found, and they reckon that their
keep is worth from 8s. to 10s. per week, so that that would bring the wages of the best workmen up to
46s. a week, and that is pretty well equal to a European wage in the same trade ? Yes ; but I should
hardly think that their living cost as much as you say it does.
15851^. "Well, they live fairly well; I am sure of that, judging from what I have seen ? Yes, I know they
do ; they have ducks, and pork, and fish.
15852. Of course something depends on the amount of work the Chinaman gets through ;— do you know
whether a Chinaman would get through his work as fast as a European ? No ; I hardly think he would
do as much work as a European. The Chinese are steady and plodding workers, rather than quick ones,
and they are great imitators.
15853. We have heard that they do not make chairs ; — how is that ? Because they have no show_ in making
them against the imported or cheap Austrian and American chairs. That is the reason, I think. _ That
has killed chair-making amongst the Europeans, except chairs made in cheap suites, but the making of
chairs for ordinary use has been killed altogether in (Sydney. Some years ago a furniture-maker named
Mr. Arnold used to make cane chairs for my father. He worked at home, and used to bring in three
dozen chairs once a month and we could get rid of them. Now there is no such thing.
14854. But you say that a number of chairs are made for suites ? Yes, sometimes two, or three, or
four in a suite, according to the price.
15855. And then I suppose leather-covered dining-room chairs are made in Sydney also ? Yes ; but I do
not think they are made much by the Chinese. I do not think they make any chairs at all.
15856. No. As a matter of fact, we have visited many of their places and did not find a cha,ir in the
course of manufacture in any of them, and it was suggested to me that the reason was because a chair
requires more ingenuity in the making ? No ; as a matter of fact there were Chinese-made chairs here
thirty-five or forty years ago ; I remember distinctly seeing Chinese-made chairs on the Bocks thirty-five
years ago. The reason why the Chinese do not make chairs now is this, I think, that in chair-making a
great deal of work is done by machinery, they are cut with a machine saw and can be almost put
together from the wood, and you do not see the Chinese troubling much about machinery. You never see
such a thing even as a hand morticing machine amongst the implements in a Chinese factory. They do
everything by hand.
15857. When did the revival in the European furniture-making trade begin ? I have seen a marked
improvement in the trade during the last four or five years, I think.
15858. Do you mean to say that the general state of the furniture trade in Sydney at the present time is
flourishing ? I do not think so.
15859. President.} In your business do you suffer more now from the importation of cheap furniturefrom
Europe than you do from the local competition of the Chinese ? Well, I have said that the shop business
is a thing I do not trouble much about ; I do not do much "of a shop trade. My trade consists in jobbing
and in the little ordered work that I get.
15860. Yes, that is at present, but in years past, when your father was in business with you on the opposite
side of the street, you did a, good deal of furniture manufacturing? Yes; we manufactured a good
bit then.
15861. Well, I am speaking of those days, say, twelve years ago, make a comparison of this kind. How
do you account for your losing that retail business that you had then and that you have not got now ; is
it by reason of the importation of cheap furniture from America or Europe, or by the competition of the
Chinese ? I think it is principally brought about by the time-payment system.
15862. Well, it is carried on by the importers of European furniture, is it not ; — what kind of furniture
is it they sell on time-payment ? Well, the cheaper class of furniture, and a great deal of Chinese-made
furniture.
15863. Then it is about equal in proportion, is it ? Yes, I should think so.
15864. Of course the time-payment system has nothing really to do with it. The time-payment man
sells furniture that is the product of Chinese factories as well as furniture that is imported from Europe
or America ? Yes, I think so.
15865. Were there not a number of furniture shops in Pitt-street, doing a fairly thriving business ten or
twelve years ago ? Well, not so recently as that ; fifteen or twenty years ago there were a number of
shops in Pitt-street doing a cheap retail trade.
15866. I should think it was about fourteen years ago if my recollection serves me right. The bulk of
the shops in Pitt-street lived by manufacturing, did they not ? Yes ; my father and I had a good deal
of it. 15867.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES Ot EVIDENCE. 427
fmf6!' T°U kn°W \ man called Brierly- Pitt-street;- he had a number of men working for him up to Mr.
WfiS wTlT ' W many Sh0uld y0U think there were iu his employ ? I cannot tell you exactly. K- McKenzie.
but I do not tHnlJso1. ^ ^ * ^ gU6SS-had he ten men working for him then ? I cannot say, 16^^
nfetr k^tTe^uS beVheluttiaf ^ ^^ ^ ^ d° ^ tWnk ? * d° n0t ^ S° ' *
]S' IK Snd of .wo* did J"^™ out ? Principally chairs, and that work has fallen off.
hS™Lt -r ?+V f rW1 ■ i «.M^akmg Place'J°u say that the Chinese are not makers of superior
S?Sn Ftl „ ^y nTVal that haS °ccurred in the better class of furniture is not to be attributed to
Tes, I should thinks^ °' anything of that kkd> but PeAaPs to the enterprise of the importer ?
If the' ChineseT eSST ^ ^^ '^ 7°U W t0ld US ^ n°thing t0 d° WitH *he maWllg °f fumiture
15873. Mr Hawthorne-] Suppose you wanted a first-class wardrobe to-day, would it not be possible for
you to go to some of the better class of Chinese manufacturers and order any article from them with
commence that you would get quite as good an article as you would get from the European manufacturer ?
ut' ^VX- g° ^ tha* confideilce J but, as a matter of fact, I don't think you would get it,
ire£T tt ? 6 W°uld try to act as fairly as Possible.
lo874. How do you account for it that they could not make a first-class article, although they were asked
to do it, ottered a sufficient sum of money, and honestly tried to do it ? Well, as I have already
?Sla-wi ?*■ be,cause the Chinese have a different system of doing the work.
15H7o. What is that system ; explain to us if you will the difference between it and the European system
ot workmanship r* Well, I am not a cabinet-maker, I am an upholsterer, although I have been amongst
the wood- work tor some time. I notice that in making drawers instead of dove-tailing the blades in they
frequently nail them m and sometimes they tenon them in. We have what we call runners for the
drawers. They are little runners for the drawers to run upon, but the Chinese instead of putting them in,
will run a shght piece of i-mch wood right through, and nail a piece of wood underneath to carry them.
I he^ result ot all this is that there is no stability in their work.
15876. Is that in order more speedily to get through the work, or is it that they have not been taught
cabinet-making so scientifically as Europeans ? 'Well, as the Chinese are very patient and painstaking
workmen, I think the latter is the answer. They work upon a different system, and have not the
knowledge that Europeans have.
15877. Do you think there are as many European cabinet-makers in Sydney to-day as there were fifteen
years ago ? I hardly think so ;_tbat is not following their trade as cabinet-makers.
15878. And do you think that is attributable to the number of Chinese manufacturers there are in the
neighbourhood of the metropolis ? No doubt it is probably owing to that, and probably owing to the
large amount of cheap furniture imported from Europe. I 'should say, however, that the principal cause
is the competition of Chinese cabinet-makers.
15879. Then you do not think we have as much to fear from furniture brought from abroad as we have to
fear from the local manufacturing of furniture by the Chinese who work upon a less scientific principle
and turn out a poorer class of furniture ? Well, I am not quite sure, I think it is about six of one and
half-a-dozen of the other.
15880. But I understood you just now when I asked you whether the falling off in the European furniture
trade of Sydney was attributable to imported furniture or to the making of furniture by the Chinese, to say
that you considered the principal cause of the falling off in the manufacture of European-made furniture
was owing to the Chinese ; now you say that it is about six of one and half-a-dozen of the other ? Well,
I should certainly say that the local Chinese manufacturers are the principal cause of the falling off in the
European trade.
15881. If it were possible for us to suppress the manufacture of Colonial-made furniture by the Chinese,,
do you think that the European cabinet-makers residing in the Colony would suffer as much from the
importation of European furniture as they suffer now from locally made Chinese furniture and imported
furniture together. Supposing I am a cabinet-maker looking out for a job, and that I have to compete
with the Chinese who make furniture locally of a very cheap description, would I be as likely to suffer as
much from the imported furniture made in Europe as I would from the Chinese-made furniture turned
out of the factories here ? I think you would suffer more from the Chinese-made furniture in the Colony
— that is my opinion.
15882. Tou have had a look at the Chinese-made furniture that goes to such places as Harris and Ackman's,
and you have also had a chance of seeing the imported European furniture — would you mind telling us
how they compare ? The imported furniture, as a rule, has a more showy look than the other, but
the inferior kinds of imported furniture are not much better than the furniture made locally by the
Chinese.
15883. Is the imported furniture any better than that made locally by the Chinese ? Well, it is not much
better at any rate. There is, however, another class of furniture sold by Harris and Aekman, and imported
by D. H. Davis ; that is a better kind of furniture. Then again, there is a third kind of furniture imported
by Cowlishaw Brothers. That is more finished in appearance than the Chinese-made furniture, but it is
still of a very inferior kind.
15884. It would not stand comparison with the furniture made by Europeans in the Colony ? It will not
stand comparison with furniture fairly made by Europeans in the Colony.
15885. Did you ever hear of a Chinaman importing Chinese wood to New South Wales ? No ; I never did.
15886. All the stuff they use in connection with the business they buy in New South Wales, do they
not ? They may not get it in Sydney ; some of it they certainly do, but they also use imported wood ;
whether they import it themselves or buy it here I cannot say.
15887. Are the German makers large importers of wood and machinery for furniture making ? I do not
think so. I think their machinery is dear, and they work up the furniture from the rough wood ; but I
have not been into any of their places, so I cannot say positively.
[The witness then withdrew.]
Mr.
428. CHrNESE GAMBLING COMMISSION" — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. Edgar Cutkr, called and examined : —
Mr. 15888. President.] What are you ? A cabinet-maker.
RCutler. 15889. Where do you work ? At Anthony Horderu's.
15890. How long have you been working there ? Two years.
15891. Where were you employed before — I mean were you employed generally at your trade in Sydney ?
Yes, for the past eight years I have been pretty well engaged in various shops in the city.
15892. Were you apprenticed here ? No, I was apprenticed in Victoria.
15893. And you have been working since you left Victoria in the neighbourhood of Sydney? Yes.
15894. Mr. McKillop.] How do the Chinese affect you in the matter of wages? Just previous to the
Chinese Restriction Act coming into force it was the custom of the Chinese employers to bring men from
China to work for them. They paid their fares by the boats and their poll-taxes, and then the newcomers
were in a sense apprenticed to them at a very low rate of wages for three or four years. Since the increase
of the poll-tax, to an extent which has been practically prohibitive, the custom has died out for the simple
reason that there are now no more Chinese coming here, and those who were apprenticed in that way
are getting out of their time and demanding better wages. The consequence of that is that we are not
affected by the Chinese furniture-makers now to the extent that we were previously, but still we are
affected by them there is no doubt of that.
15895. What is the average wage earned by a Chinese cabinet-maker ? I would not like to be positive
as to the average wage earned by the average Chinaman in the shops about Sydney, although I have no
doubt you would be able to get it from the chief clerk in the Government Statistician's office, to whom I
have given a great deal of information. By striking an average of the figures from a number of shops you
would get a very fair idea of the wages commonly earned by Chinamen. I would not like to give you the
figures myself because they were given to me in confidence.
15896. Well, we have no wish, I am sure, to load you into a breach of confidence, but I do not see how
you could be doing any harm if you would give us the average rate of wages paid to the Chinese cabinet-
makers ? From 25s. to 35s. a week, I think.
15897. And then they have to keep themselves? Oh, the shops have different systems. In some of the
shops the men are boarded and lodged, in others they have to find themselves.
15898. You are referring to the Chinese, I believe? Yes.
15899. President.'] Do you mean that at the present 'time the Chinese cabinet-makers are paid 35s a
week in addition to their keep ? Oh, they are not kept in addition to that; they have to pay for their
board and lodging out of their wages.
15900. Mr. McKillop.] Then the Chinese manufacturers have been on the decrease during the last twelve
months; — is that so? Yes. The larger ones are on the decrease; but the journeymen, as they are
falling out of their time, are forming co-operative workshops for themselves in a small way, and con-
sequently the number of workshops is decreasing very slowly.
15901. Has there been any increase in European workshops during the last twelve months ? Xot during: the
last twelve months that I know of ; but during the last five years the trade has made very fair progress.
15902. Do you know the average number of hours that the Chinese work ? Taking one with another, I
should say that the average would be about ten hours a day — that is, taking the good with the bad
furniture-making places.
1.5903. First of all, take the good Chinese furniture factories ? Well, there are two kinds of men working
in those places.
15904. Take the shops that turn out what is called first-class work ; — what is the number of hours the
men work there? 1 would not make a definite statement as to that, but I should say that, striking an
average, it amounts to ten hours a day. Then, it should not be forgotten, that in some of the shops they
work on Sundays.
15905. But, on the average, taking the large places with the small places, they work ten hours a day, do
you think ? Yes.
15906. Is that class of work superior .or inferior to European ? Those who are initiated in the matter
can tell on the face of it whether an article is made by a European workman or by a Chinaman, though,
as a matter of fact, as far as appearance is concerned, the Chinese take a lot of beating, but in the matter
of stability there is no comparison at all. Of course as far as very cheap work is concerned, we have to
put a poor class of work in ourselves, in order to satisfy the demand for very low-priced work.
15907. Then, taking it on the whole, the Chinese-made furniture is inferior to the really-made European
furniture ? Yes.
15908. Which is the most injurious to you — the manufacture by the Chinese of very common, second-
class, or first-class furniture ? The manufacture of the common and the second-class furniture is the most
injurious.
15909. To the European manufacturers ? Yes ; that is to the European workmen. The Chinese cabinet-
makers do not go in for the first-class work to anything like the extent that they go in for the second and
third-class work. You see the second and third-class work can be done by the average Chinese workman,
but he cannot do the best.
15910. Do you know whether Chinese-made goods are sold in the shops in the city ? Yes, Chinese-made
furniture is sold in nine out of ten of the shops in the city. Of course the people in the shops will not
admit that themselves. Indeed they will very often tell you that it is made in their own factory, when
there is no factory at all in the case.
15911. Are Anthony Hordern & Sons great purchasers of Chinese-made furniture? That is a question
that I must decline to answer. I am employed in Hordern's factory myself, and it would not be right for
me to divulge any of the information I gain as a worker there. I would, however, state that during the
last year a furniture factory has been started at Eedfern by the firm, and that in that factory there are at
present 125 Europeans employed. That factory has been started since last Anniversary Day.
15912. Well we have it in evidence from Chinese witnesses in the furniture-making trade that hitherto
Horderns' have purchased largely from them, and some of the witnesses have said that they purchase from
them at the present time. Can you swear that that is untrue ? No, I cannot swear that they do not.
1 5913. Will you give us the names of the firms that purchase largely from the Chinese ? I would rather
name the firms that do not deal with the Chinese.
15914. We would like to deal with the firms that do as well as with those who do not purchase from the
Chinese ? Well ; if I give you the names of those who to my knowledge do not deal with the Chinese you
can draw your own conclusions with regard to the rest. T5915.
CIIIKESE GAMBLI^d COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 429
15915. \ ery well, let us have the names of those firms who buy exclusivelv from Europeans ? Mr. McKenzie Mr.
who has just been before the Commission as a witness, does 'not deal with the Chinese. Lawson— when E- Cutler-
the old gent had the business— did not; Norton, of Hunter-street, does nothing with them; and buy .--7^7^.
exclusively from Europeans. Those are the only firms that I know of that do not deal with the Chinese i0Dec-' lbal-
turniture-makers.
15916. Is piece-work practised by the Chinese, and if so, how is that ? At the present time piece-work is
earned on extensively in the Chinese workshops. Indeed since the system of apprenticeship has begun
Z A- m°St their trad° 1S d°ne hj Piece-work- As a matter of fact we have known instances in which
the Chinese workmen have actually struck for piece-work. I am speaking of cabinet-makers now. I
will not say anything of the polishers aud turners.
15917. Does piece-work do much harm to the Europeans? Tes ; it must cut the throats of both the
Chinese themselves and the Europeans too. More than that, if the Chinese disagree in price thev remit
the question in dispute to an arbitrator and his award is never gainsaid.
15918. Are they bound amongst themselves to accept the decision of the nudge ? Well, we know of very
tew cases indeed m which it has been disputed.
1 5919. That is a very good feature of the Chinese life, is it not ? Yes, it is ; and I may say generally that
there is more freedom amongst the Chinese towards their employers than there is amongst Europeans. The
Chinese mechanics will speak to their employers, and discuss a question in dispute with them in the shop.
15920. Mr. Abigail^ Do you mean that at present the Chinese have more freedom in settling disputes,
or avoiding strikes, than Europeans ? Well, I say this : that they go to their employers more freely than
we should ; but that has all. come about since the Chinese Eestriction Act came into force.
15921. Then that Act has been a great advantage to the communitv generally, and particularly to the
people who have to compete against them ? Tes.
15922. Mr. MeKillop.~\ Is any preference shown by any of the shopkeepers for Chinese-made furniture ?
Tes.
15923. How is that ? It is a matter of bread and butter. We know that in nine cases out of ten a
system of presents or bribes is in force for the purpose of securing trade with the Chinamen. The
Chinese cabinet-makers make presents to the buyers for the shops in order to give them the preference in
distributing the orders. I could lay my hands on a number of buyers in the town who do that; but I
dare not, because if I was to leave my present place I should be boycotted at the other places.
1592I-. Tou mean that the buyers are bribed for the purpose of inducing them to purchase Chinese-made
goods'? Tes ; that is it.
15925. They get these presents from i he proprietors of the Chinese places? Tes; of course it is not
known to the heads of the firms for which the goods are bought, though I know of several cases iu which
it has been found out, and the buyers have been discharged as a matter of course.
15926. And that is why the Chinese sell so much furniture, is it? Well, there is also another reason.
The Chinese goods being cheaper, and a commission being given to the salesmen in the town, there are
more goods turned over, and the salesmen get a better commission. Then a good many of the managers
of the different departments have no knowledge of cabinet-work, and by giving the order to the Chinese
they do away with the worry and trouble that they would have if they had a factory of their own.
15927. Do the Chinese monopolise the trade in the inland towns? More so than they do in the city.
Certainly that is the case in places like Newcastle, G-oulburn, Bathurst, or Maitland. At such places
there is a larger percentage of Chinese to the number of Europeans than there is in Sydney.
15928. Mr. Sawthorne.~\ Engaged in the making of furniture ? Tes, in furniture-making. In fact, if a
cabinet-maker goes to work at a place like Newcastle or G-oulburn he has to do a bit of fencing, or
undertaking, or anything else that comes along.
15929. Do you know that from practical experience ? I do know it from practical experience.
15930. Do you know of any large Chinese manufacturer of furniture in Maitland, for example ? I have
never been in Maitland. 1 was speaking of small towns generally.
15931. Are you not aware that in Maitland there are two or three large European manufacturers 'of
furniture ? Has that been the case in later years ?
15932. Tes — Norman, Hyam, and White, of Morpeth, have an extensive place ? Well, two or three
men were the largest number that I ever knew to work there.
15933. Do you know that he has an immense lot of machinery ? Not for cabinet-making.
15934. Mr. McKillop."] What do you think would be the best system of coping with the Chinese ? The
only alteration in the law that we are at all anxious for is the compulsory stamping of Chinese-made
furniture. The very fact that the salesmen in the different shops sell Chinese-made furniture for Euro-
pean furniture shows how useful that reform would be. When Mr. Houghton, M.L.A., as secretary of
the Trades and Labour Council, went round to buy furniture for the Trades Hall, they assured him at
the different shops that it was all made in their own factories ; but it was a different matter altogether
when he asked them to put the same statement in black and white as one of the conditions of the purchase,
and the upshot of it was that in the end we had to send him to get it all made specially.
15935. Do the people who purchase furniture for their own homes like the Chinese-made article ? No ;
I am sure that the Europeans, as a rule, would prefer to have the European-made article. Stamping the
furniture is the only thing to benefit people in the trade.
15936. What branches of the trade do they injure most ? Cabinet-making and French-polishing. They
do a little turning and carving, but only for their own work-shops.
15937. Do large numbers of the Chinese furniture-manufacturers make their men work on Sundays ? No, (
not such a number as there used to be. It is on the decrease.
1593S. Have any prosecutions taken place ? In one or two cases.
15939. And were they convicted ? Very slight fines were imposed.
15940. Under an old Act, I suppose ? Tes.
15941. Do any Europeans work for Chinese ? Well, only where pit-saws are used.
15942. But no Europeans are employed as journeymen cabinet-makers ? Not that I know of.
15943. Do the Chinese use machinery to any extent ? Machinery is only used in Ah Toy's, I think.
He has some there, I believe.
159-14. The rest is all hand-work ? Tes.
15945. The Chinese are all imitators, are they not ? Tes.
15946. How many European workshops are there in Sydney and the suburbs to the best of your know-
ledge ?' Well, what do you call workshops ?
16 Dec, 1891
430 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. 15947. I am referring \o places employing five men and upwards? "Well, there are many places that
E. Cutler. gell(j t]lejr work outside to be made up. In many places a few men only are kept in the shops to do the
~ ~" upholstery and French-polishing as they import the frames from home. I do not think that there is above
a dozen decent workshops in the city owned by Europeans.
15948. Do you think that the importation of European-made furniture is more detrimental to the
European tradesmen here than the furniture locally made by the Chinese ? Well, as there are two classes
of men in the trade, it is looked at from different standpoints. A man who makes a first-class article does not
fear Chinese competition, and he would like to be protected from the importation of European-made
furniture from abroad, whereas a man who is less skilful has more cause to fear Chinese competition.
Eor my own part I should say that the Chinese are the most injurious to the local European workman.
15949. Is it all first-class furniture that is imported ? Well, it is supposed to be ; but some of the stuff
that comes out is very shoddy. If you put a tax upon the material used in the business of course it
falls upon us, for we only use the best imported timbers, and the Chinamen use Colonial wood, and, conse-
quently, escape the duty.
15950. Have the Chinese furniture factories begun to decrease as a result of the Chinese Restriction
Act? Tes ; the larger places anyway have begun to decrease. There are less men actually employed.
15951. Do the Chinese go in much for upholstery? No; there has only been one place in which the
Chinese have done any work in upholstery.
] 5952. Examine the tables we are sitting at, and tell us whether it is, in your opinion, a Chinese or a
European-made article ? The turning is evidently not Chinese, and I do not think any part of it is.
15953. Tou think it is a European-made table ? Tes.
15954. Is it a locally-made table ? Tes.
15955. Mr. Aligail.~\ You have said that prior to the Chinese Eestriction Act being passed men were
brought here under contract from China at a very low rate of pay ? They were.
15956. But the passing of the Act stopped that sort of thing? Tes.
15957. So that, as a matter of fact, benefit arose from that legislation? Tes ; it was a distinct source of
benefit to us.
15958. And, as a result of the passing of the Act, the Chinamen employed in furniture-making have
decreased, and the Europeans locally employed in the same trade have increased ? Well, there has been
a slight decrease on the one side and a slight increase on the other, but it has not been very great in
either case.
15959. Tou stated that buyers in some establishments are bribed by the Chinese to induce them to pur-
chase Chinese-made furniture. As a matter of fact, do you not think that the proprietor of an establishment
would soon find out something of that kind. It seems to me that he could not help hearing all about it
if the purchasers of the furniture were not satisfied with the goods when they got them into their homes,
and that being so, is it likely that he will allow any buyers to continue to buy articles that his customers
would not take, or having taken, were dissatisfied with ? I stated at the same time that many of these
men have been discharged for that very reason ; and as a matter of fact I am pleased to say that it is
not done to the same extent now as it was. I know an instance in which a gentleman came to a good
firm in the town, and ordered almost a complete house of furniture ; one of the conditions being tha,t it
was to be English-made furniture. The buyer, however, wanted to make a little money out of it himself,
went to the Chinese for it, and it was delivered direct. It happened, however, that the purchaser knew
more about the matter than most people ; and upon seeing the furniture, recognised at once that it was
not European made ; so that he went to the firm who received that order, and lodged a complaint, the
consequence being that the buyer was dismissed.
15960-1. Tou are Secretary to the Cabinet-makers' Union ? Tes.
15962. So you have a good knowledge of men in the trade, I suppose ? Tes, I think I have.
15963. Does your Society include cabinet-makers in other parts of the Colony amongst its members?
We have no branches to our Society outside the metropolis, but we have a system of federation through-
out the other colonies.
15964. So you are not in a position to say what the wages of workmen in Goulburn, Bathurst, or Mait-
land, or other inland towns are ? I cannot tell you exactly what the wages are, but I know that they
are not so good as they are here.
15965. What rate of wages do Europeans earn ? I think the average wage of cabinet-makers is about
£2 14s., that is as near as I can get at it.
15966. Are they kept constantly at work, or do they make much lost time ? I am striking an average in
my answer to all these questions.
15967. Then that would be the average, including lost time ? No ; that is the average weekly wage for
actual working-time.
15968. Are they put on half-time on any occasions ? The majority of the men work about nine months
out of the twelve, but of course there are some men who are never out of employment. On the other
hand there are some men who are never in.
15969. But the majority of the men you say have constant employment for nine months out of the twelve
at a weekly wage of about £2 14s. ? Tes.
15970. Are there many complaints now about the competition of the Chinese amongst the men themselves ?
Well, there is not much agitation going on at present for the simple reason that we have dropped the
question until such time as we can get something like a stamping of Chinese Furniture Bill passed by
Parliament.
15971. Do you think that if a law was passed for stamping Chinese-made furniture, it would largely
remove any cause of complaint that you may have at present ? Oh, yes ; I think there is no doubt
about it.
15972. Then following out that line of argument do you think that the sellers of Chinese-made furniture
in the various shops make no representation to the retail purchasers as to who makes the furniture ;—
they do not say to them, this is a Chinese bed-room suite, or this is a Chinese-made table ? No, they lead
them to believe that whatever furniture they sell is either European or imported.
15973. I can quite believe that. As a matter of fact I was told the same thing myself in a large retail
establishment here, upon one occasion when I was examining a suite that I had actually seen in a Chinese
furniture factory ? Tes, anyone who keeps their eyes open can detect the deception.
15974.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES 01? EVIDENCE. 431
1^974. And you think that if the public were made aware of the fact that certain articles were made in Mr.
the Chinese furniture factories they would very generally cease to purchase those articles and demand E- 0ufcler-
ln preference articles made by European hands ? Tes, I think so. ' '^~s
15975. Is there a very wide difference in the case of European and Chinese-made furniture? "We ag *6 Dec., 1891.
Europeans are compelled to turn out a better article for the same amount of money, and yet our work is
sold by the retail establishments at an increase upon Chinese-made furniture.
15976. Then competition makes you sell upon unfair conditions ? Tes, very unfair conditions.
15977. Can you tell us about how many European furniture mechanics there are employed in Sydney.
How many have you got upon your books ? Are you referring to any one particular branch, or the whole
or the branches ?
15978. I am referring to the whole of the branches ? Well, if you take the polishers and turners into
consideration they are working for and the joiners, the number of European cabinet-makers in the city
and suburbs would be somewhere about 160
15979. Is that all ? Yes.
15980. Do you know how many Chinese are employed in your trade ? I could give vou the number if I
had my statistics to hand, but I cannot from memory.
15981. Do you think there are 1,000 ? No, I do not think there are so many as that. I have all these
returns down in black and white, and could give you correct information if I had my papers.
15982. Do you know whether the Chinese are in the habit of forming societies amongst themselves
to keep up the rate of wages ? No, I do not know that.
15983. Mr. Quqng Tart.'] With regard to the Chinese working on Sundays can you mention the names
of any Chinese furniture factory where the hands are employed on Sundays ? I hardly think I should
be compelled to answer that question.
15984. I should like an answer to it, it could certainly do no harm ? Well, the fact that there were two
prosecutions against Chinese cabinet-makers in Waterloo quite recently, for working on Sundays,
proves the statement, and I have actually seen work going on on Sundays at a place in Devonshire-street
myself ; of course I am only referring to quiet work like polishing and sand-papering that makes no
noise.
15985. But do you know whether any Sunday work has been going on, say, during the last fortnight or
three weeks in any of these factories ? No ; I cannot speak of a time so recently as all that.
15986. Mr. Abigail.] Can you give us the dates of the convictions for Sunday working to which you have
just referred ? Well, as a matter of fact, it was a person outside our own trade, who had a great respect
for the Sabbath, who reported the matter to us in the hope that we should take action. It was reported
to us at one of our meetings when I was present.
15987. Mr. Quong Tart.'] Now with regard to the Chinese competition of which you complained. There
are a number of tradesmen of different kinds in Sydney are there not ? Tes.
15988. And how many suffer from competition with the Chinese ? Well there are gardeners, florists,'
and cabinet-makers all suffering more or less from Chinese competition.
15989. They suffer more than the men in any other trade do they? Well we suffer badly enough, but I
think the gardeners suffer more than anybody else. Then of course the Chinese cuts the joiners but the
joiners do not know it.
15990. Do you know of any instances in which they have taken any contracts for joinery work ? I know
a case in which they did the shop fitting for two shops in G-eorge-street.
15991. Have you ever heard of any of the Chinese cabinet-makers complaining about their own country-
men making an inferior kind of furniture out of old packing cases and so on ? Well I do not associate
with the Chinese to that extent as to know all the details of their trade, but as a matter of fact the
Chinese are compelled now to produce a better class of furniture than they did formerly.
15992. How is that? Because the shop-keepers are compelling them to produce a better article.
15993. Tou say that the Chinese used to import tradesmen from China ; do you know what kind of an
arrangement that was under ? Well we have inquired into the matter, and from information we have
received it appears that they (the new chums) work for four or five years in order to pay back to their
employers the expense to which they were put in bringing them out. That of course was previous to
passing the Chinese Restriction Act. There was only £10 poll-tax at that time. Mind you they got a
certain wage besides their keep, but the percentage of it was deducted for the purpose of clearing off the
debt.
15994. Supposing a man was brought out in that way, and apprenticed for three years to an employer,
what would he get in the way of wages ? I know of cases in which the men only got 5s. a week for the
first year, in addition to their keep. Of course some men were more active than others, and better able to
learn.
15995. Tou say than the Chinese sell their labour much more -cheaply than Europeans ; — what does a
European call a fair price ? We do not know the price charged by the Chinese to the shops. That is a
matter that is kept entirely between the Chinese themselves and the proprietors of the large retail estab-
lishments. All we know is the price that is charged for articles in the shops. As a matter of fact, the
Chinese do not get much benefit out of it. They are cutting their own throats just as fast as they are
cutting the throats of Europeans.
15996. Tou think that if the Chinese cabinet-makers decided, in conjunction with Europeans not to sell
an article below a certain price, some good might result from it ? Oh, but the Chinese would not enter
into any such arrangement.
15997. But suppose they would ;— suppose they came and said, " We, like you, want to make a better
living than we are doing, and the only way by which we can do that is by charging a higher rate for our
labour ; will you agree with us to fix a certain price at which we shall both sell certain articles to the
shops ;— how would that be ? No ; you could never get it to work. There is always a class that would
stand aloof from it, and gradually bring the general run of prices down.
15998. Well, now how do other trades get along ;— how have they been prospering lately— trades in
which there is no Chinese competition at all— are they more prosperous than your trade is ; do they ever
complain that the rate of wages is going down, and that they cannot make a living ? I should hardly like
to give -evidence before the Commission on matters outside my own trade. I came here to speak about
matters with which I was naturally very familiar, and my opinion on questions outside the cabinet-
makinsr
432 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. making would bo based to a large extent on hearsay. Of course people in other trades have their times
E. Cutler. 0£ 8]aci(nesg au(j their busy times just as we have ours ; but this is what I particularly want to emphasise,
i«Tr^^sQi *'iat eTen dur'ng our Dusv times our living costs us more than the Chinese pay for theirs, and yet we have
e°-' ' to work at the same price, and it is certainly not fair.
1509!). Ton say that tho Chinamen are cutting their own throats; — surely they are fools to do that?
"Well, the very fact that Anthony Hordern has started this factory at Eedfern, and put a lot of machinery
into it must give the Chinese a knock. They are selling their furniture to other firms at a cheaper rate
than they did before.
10000. As far as I can understand it, your trade is very bad just now ? Tes ; it has not been so bad for
the last eight years as it is now.
16001. Still you have less Chinese competition now than you have have had before; — surely if that
Chinese competition is the cause of the want of prosperity in your trade, it ought to be gradually
improving, and if that is not the cause, can you tell me what is ? "Well, I have my own private opinion
of course.
16002. You say that there are fewer Chinese workshops now than there were formerly,_ and that the
Chinese employed in them are getting better wages than they did, which must place their competition
upon a fairer basis, and yet your trade is falling off? Tes ; every shop in the town, with the exception
of three, is working half-hand, and those who have got the whole of their hands at work are only working
from 9 o'clock in the morning till 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
16003. You say that the Chinese work is not so good as the English work ; — how is that ? There is not
the stability in Chinese work that there is in European work ; and although Europeans do not season
their timber as well as they should, the Chinese are still worse in
16004. In chests of drawers and so on, the timber should be dry, I suppose, and the Chinese places being
so small they have not enough room to dry it ? Tes.
1G005. And that would make a great deal of difference in the article when complete ? Tes, it would
make all the difference in the world.
16006. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you ever hear of customers coming in to a shop asking particularly to be
supplied with European-made furniture ? Tes ; and in going out to work I have been asked as an
employee of the firm the question, — " Is this a Chinese or European made article ?" when I have known
very well that it has come out of a Chinese factory. Of course, under those circumstances, a man must
make an excuse of some kind. All I could say was that I was working in another room and did not know
much about it, or something of that kind. One dare not say that it was made by a Chinaman ; it
would be more than his place was worth.
16007. Do you think that if a customer came into a retail shop and paid £3 10s. for a Chinese made
article, and at the same time was told that it was a Chinese-made article, and £3 15s. or £4 for a
European-made article, and, of course, told it was a European-made article, that he would prefer to pay
the difference and buy the latter? Oh, if a purchaser knew which was the Chinese-made article and
which was the European I am positive that in the majority of cases, particularly among the working
classes, they would go for the more expensive article, and pay the difference willingly.
16005. I want to see whether the people who give orders to Chinese for furniture give them because the
retail purchaser demands Chinese goods, or simply because they can get more profit out of them. Tou
are of opinion that the public generally would prefer to see European-made furniture exposed for sale
even if they had to pay slightly more for it ? I am positive, with my experience of the European popula-
tion of this country that seventeen out of twenty would rather have European goods than Chinese,
although they had to pay a little more for them. After all the goods are not so much more expensive
when they are made by Europeans, and everybody knows that there is better wood in them, better work-
manship, and more durability.
16009. Supposing there were two tables like this one exposed for sale, and you were the salesman, and
were asked the price of this table, and said, " This is £3 10s., but that one is £4 10s., being made by a
European cabinet-maker," your customers would want to know what was the reason of such difference in
the price would they not, and you would have to say that it arose from the fact that one table was made
by a Chinaman and the other by a European ; — now what answer would you usually get from the
customer who comes in to buy the furniture ? "Well, you are assuming a case that could really never
happen, because a shopkeeper would never admit that either of them was a Chinese-made article, and
anyhow there would not be the difference in price that you imagine.
16010. Then from what you have said we understand that all the shops in Sydney, with the exception of
a few that you have mentioned, are trading under false pretences ? Tes.
16011. In other words, that they are selling Chinese goods and telling their customers that they are
European ? Tes, that is so, and I am prepared to prove it.
16012. And you think that if Parliament was to pass a measure compelling all furniture made by the
Chinese to be stamped it would lead to the sale of a great deal more European furniture ? I have no
doubt about it.
THUJRSDA Y, 17 DECEMBER, 1891.
The Mayor of Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
EEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbesidekt.
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG- TAET, Esq..
JOHN STUAET HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. William Arthur Holman called and examined : — •
Mr. 16013. Mr. Abigail.'] What business do you follow ? I am a cabinet-maker.
W.A.Hoknan. 16014. Are you an employer of labour or are you a journeyman ? I am a journeyman.
17^)^^801 16015- ^^10 are y°u employed by ? I am at present out of employment.
ec., 8 -16016. Is your trade slack in Sydney ? Tes; the trade is suffering from depression just now, and has
been for some time.
16017.
433
^?i!" +i, Cjn y°U •°ffer an °Pinion as to whether the Chinese furniture-makers have had anything to do Mr. W.A
with the depression of trade— is it caused by the keen competition carried on ? I should presume that HolmaD-
i em om^ g t0,d° with it] thouSh T d° not know personally ; I have never worked in a Chinese shop. 17C^TI\
IbUlS. JJo you know that European furniture-manufacturing in Sydney has developed considerably u ueo"1^1
during the last three or four years ? I should think so. There has been an extensive importation of
improved machinery by many of the Sydney firms lately. This has increased their power very largely, and
i™,1^ ™ 1S , there 1S nowvery mnch more furniture being made by Europeans than formerly.
16019. Do you know anything about the rate of wages paid to Chinese furniture-makers ? Not by per-
^oleX^ulenCe- , eal)1only Sive y°u the ideas current among European cabinet-makers.
16020. What are those ideas ? The general idea is that the Chinese work under very unsatisfactory con-
ditions, to say the least, very frequently sleeping on the premises where they work, and living at a very
low standard of comfort indeed. The general rate of wages is, I should say, about 30s. a week, although I
cannot speak with authority, as I have said, not having worked among them.
16021. What is the general rate of wages paid to the European cabinet-makers ? I may state that the
European cabinet-makers are generally engaged on " piece-work." Where a man is employed by the
hour he will get from Is. to Is. 3d. per hour, and he will have to find his tools as well.
10022. Then, at eight hours a day, he would get £2 8s. per week. Have you ever heard that the Chinese
cabinet-makers in the Sydney establishments get 36s. a week and their keep ? No ; I was not aware of
that.
16023. Would you consider that a low rate of pay ? No. I should consider that very satisfactory.
16024. What firms have you worked for in Sydney ? I have worked for Verdy & Co., of Darlington, the
biggest firm in Sydney ; for Dickenson, of Kent-street ; and also the Co-operative Furniture Company of
Darlington.-
1G025. Do these firms employ any considerable number of hands ? The Messrs. Verdy ordinarily employ
about forty-five hands all told, I should say ; that is the largest firm in Sydney of the class.
16026. Do they pay the rate of wages you have mentioned ? Tes ; and more in some cases.
16027. Is the eight-hour principle carried out iu the firms you have mentioned ? Yes. I may repeat
that the rate of pay for cabinet-making is generally calculated on the system of piece-work. We are very
rarely paid by the hour ; it is only done in special cases where, for some particular reason, it is not easy
to put a price upon the job.
16028. What has been the general effect of the increase in the local manufacture of furniture by
European firms, has it been tp check the importation of furniture from other countries, or is it simply
taking the place of Chinese-made furniture ? I cannot tell you whether the importations have decreased :
the general idea among members of the trade is that they have not. The general impression is that
quantity of furniture made by the Chinese has fallen off considerably, and that its place has been taken
by European-made furniture in the production of which machinery has been employed. The European
firms have been thereby enabled to compete with the Chinese in the intermediate or better class of goods.
In fact I have heard it stated by Mr. Kellian, one of the partners of Messrs Yerdy & Co., that the
firm can now beat the Chinese in the particular line which it deals in.
16029. Do you possess any knowledge that would be of service to the Commission in deciding how to
correct any evils that may exist in the system carried on by the Chinese ? I think the most important
thing to do would be to insist upon the observance of better sanitary regulations, and prevent the workmen
sleeping on the premises they work in during the day; another suggestion to which a good deal of
importance is attached by many people is that all Chinese-made furniture should be stamped with a
brand by which it could be easily distinguished as of Chinese manufacture.
16030. Do you think in that ease the public would not buy it as readily as they do r Well, there can be
no doubt that a prejudice does, exist against such furniture to a very large extent.
16031. Do you think the firms for whom the Chinese make this furniture sell it to the public without
telling them it is made by the Chinese ? Yes.
16032. They lead people to believe that it is imported, or made by Europeans ? That is done certainly.
Then again, there are certain articles sold which are partly of Chinese and partly of European manufacture
the European parts being fitted on to the parts made by the Chinese, to aid in the deception.
16033. And you think all kinds of impositions might be avoided by causing the furniture to be stamped ?
Yes.
16034. When you speak of compelling the observance of better sanitary regulations, I suppose you do not
mean your remarks on that head to apply to large Chinese establishments, where they have proper accom-
modation, not only for carrying on the work, but also for sleeping, in the matter of ventilation, for
instance ?' I would suggest that such places should be regularly inspected, and care taken that sufficient
accommodation was provided in all cases.
16035. You think that a measure of the nature of a Factory Act applied to all these places would result m
a better state of things ? Certainly.
16036. It would bring them on more equal terms with the Europeans ? Yes.
16037. And thereby reduce their power of absorbing the trade as they do at the present time ? Indivi-
dually I cannot say that they do absorb the trade. I have no doubt that a result of adopting some such
suggestions as I have thrown out would be to increase the Chinese wages, and to bring them more on a
footing with the European workman, and so on.
16038 Have you ever heard that the Chinese workmen enjoy on a larger measure of freedom m approaching
their employers— where grievances exist, for example— than the Europeans have in your trade ? I cannot
say I have heard that. I have heard that the condition of the Chinese workers has improved very considerably
since the Chinese Eestriction became a law of the land, for the simple reason that they themselves have
been saved from the competition of other Chinese who would otherwise have come here from China.
16039 The Eestriction Act has prevented men beiDg brought here under contract at a low rate ot wages f
Certainly. The result has been to improve their condition, and give them better wages m many instances.
16040 Mr. McKillovA Is the Chinese work generally of an inferior class i They chiefly do an inferior class
of work ; and such as they do of a middling class is done much more clumsily than the English work, lo
anyone in the trade the distinction between European and Chinese work is most marked. You can tell it at
once. The only way in which a man might be deceived is where they put European additions in the more con-
spicuous parts of the article-such as a wash-stand, or dressmg-table-as I have already stated, to aid the
deception. ^^ j 16041>
431 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. W. A. 16041. What particular class of furniture do the Chinese chiefly make ? They make bedroom furniture
Holman. mostly, such as wash-stands, dressing-tables, and wardrobes. They very rarely venture on the manutacuro
-C"-^"^, of drawing-room or dining-room furniture.
17 Dec, I8tfi. 16042_ ia jtnot a fact that they turn out some of what is called first-class work, in the shape of wardrobes,
book-cases, and so on ? Yes ; they turn out that class of work ; but it always bears evidence of inferior
execution, and a general want of finish. .
16013. As a rule they are great imitators are they not ? Tes ; they are supposed to copy European designs.
16011. Do you know if the Chinese go in for the manufacture of chairs ? I never heard of it.
16015. Do the European firms here go in for that class of manufacture ? Tes ; the co-operative company,
in Darlington, are chiefly chair-makers.
16046. What kind of chairs ? Chairs for bed-room suites, and other sorts, known by various names in
the trade — dining and drawing-room chairs.
16047. In which class of goods do you find the Chinese competition most injurious to your trade—the
common class or the better class ? It is only in the second class the European establishments would feel
the competition, for the simple reason that they do not manufacture the lowest class of goods.
16018. Do you visit the factories of the Chinese cabinet-makers ? No ; I have never been inside them.
16049. Do you know if, in the manufacture of the inferior class of furniture, they use old packing-cases ?
I know such things are done frequently. Inferior material can be used and made to look well. _ _
16050. Is it done by Europeans, do you know ? I have never known it to be done in Sydney, but it is
done in the East End of London very largely.
16051. You have said, I think, that Chinese made goods are sold as of European manufacture? les.
16052. Has it been asserted by the auctioneers that the Chinese goods they sell are European, when the
question has been asked ? I cannot say that ; but I know that Chinese goods are sold by them, and there
is a tacit assumption that they are of European make, although they are not labelled as such.
16053. And that is why you think they should be marked or stamped, so that people would know what
they were buying, and they could then please themselves ? Yes.
16054. Do you know whether the Chinese work on the piece-work principle at all ? I cannot say. I
have no reliable information on that point ; but I believe they generally work for a weekly wage.
16055. Is there any preference shown by shop buyers for Chinese-made goods ; and, if so, why? That is
a rather delicate question. In some cases shop buyers do give a preference where they can to the Chinese
manufacturers. Eor what reason I cannot say. One hears remarks passed in the trade that the buyers
receive commissions from the Chinese manufacturers.
16056. That being in the nature of a bribe? It would be a matter of business I suppose between the
manufacturer and the buyer. , .
16057. Do you know if the Chinese monopolise the trade in the inland districts ? I have not visited the
inland towns as a workman, and cannot speak from experience.
16058. "What branches of your trade are most affected by Chinese competition ? They chiefly affect those
who make bedroom suites, and furniture of the second grade.
16059. Do you know whether any European journeymen work for the Chinese in their shops? I have
never heard of a case of the kind. I do not think it is at all frequent. The average European workman
would not be likely to work in a Chinaman's shop I think.
16060. I suppose some of the largest firms in Sydney are large buyers of Chinese furniture ? Undoubtedly.
16061. And the principal auctioneers I suppose? Yes; you may say practically all the retail firms in
Sydney buy of the Chinese.
1C062. "Which do you think injures your trade most— the large importations of English manufactured
furniture or the local competition of Chinese manufacturers in your trade ? I am inclined to think that
the importations do most 'injury to the trade now, although but for the Chinese Restriction Act I have
no doubt that it would be the other way about, that is to say, a steady influx of Chinese cabinet-makers
swelling the ranks of those already here would, in that case, do most harm ; but this has been prevented
by the imposition of the poll-tax.
16063. The Clfinese competition has decreased since the Eestriction Act was passed? Yes; I have no
doubt it has.
16064. And the European trade is on the increase ? To a slight extent I think it is. I do not say as to
the number of factories ; but the turn-out is certainly larger.
16065. Can you give us an idea of the number of furniture factories in Sydney ? Of those which are of
any consequence, using machinery, I should say, roughly speaking, there are about a dozen in Sydney.
16066. Have you any idea of the number of Chinese factories ? No, I have not.
16067. Do you know if the Chinese use machinery in their work ? Yery rarely ; practically none I
should say. They may occasionally buy mouldings and such things made by machinery, but I do not
think they use it themselves.
16068. Do you know the number of hours the Chinese journeymen cabinet-makers work ? Not from
personal experience ; but the general idea is that they work about ten hours a day.
16069. Have you ever noticed them working on Sundays? No.
16070. Has it been asserted that they do work on Sunday ? Oh ! yes ; that has been asserted certainly..
I know from personal observation that they work late into the evening.
16071. At that rate they would work over ten hours a day ? Yes. I have seen them working at 8 or 9
o'clock in the evening.
16072. And when you said ten hours you gave that as the average ? That is the generally accepted idea
among the European members of the trade.
16073. Do the Chinese go in for upholstering ? Very little, I believe.
16074. They confine themselves almost exclusively to cabinet-making and polishing ? Yes.
16075. Do any of them follow the occupation of house carpenters? Yery little I should say ; I have
only seen one so engaged.
16076. Was he engaged on a building ? On a verandah.
16077. Was it a Chinese building ? No ; it was a building in Elizabeth-street, belonging to a European ;
I noticed it in passing, and it struck me as a somewhat remarkable fact at the time.
16078. Mr. Quong Tart.~\ With regard to the Chinese cabinet-makers sleeping on the premises where they
work, do you know what sort of a room they have ? I have no doubt the nature of the accommodation
varies ; but in many cases I believe they sleep in bunks ranged round the walls of the workshops.
16079.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 435
16079. Tour view is that if the Chinese workmen were made to sleep under proper conditions in all eases, Mr. W. A.
having the same accommodation as Europeans, their wages would be to that extent higher ; as at present Holman.
it costs the employer nothing, where the men sleep on the premises ; and if the employer had to pay a ^'^C
higher wage m that way he would have to get a better price for his article before he could compete with 17 Deo-' 1891'
the European manufacturer ? That is my view.
16080. Supposing a law were made to direct that a certain space should be allowed to each person for
sleeping accommodation, and so forth, do you think that would be satisfactory? Tes ; that would be a
very desirable regulation.
16081. Even if there were no Eestriction Act in existence, a law of that kind would bring about a better
state oi things i I think it would be very difficult to enforce such a law if there were an unlimited
?c/^otT,. £1DeSe cominS1Ilto the Colony, owing to their habits in China being so widely different.
16082. ±Sut they must abide by the law or stand the risk of punishment. Supposing they were Germans
or Italians it would be the same ? Tes ; if they could be discovered, but I think it would be a difficult
matter with large numbers of fresh arrivals every month, or thereabouts.
16083. With regard to the Chinese made goods, you say they are sold cheaper than the European goods ?
Tes ; to the wholesale houses.
16084. Who receives the benefit of the cheap production ? I presume the large firms in Sydney.
16085. So that the Chinese themselves are cutting their own throats, as the saying is ? I would not put
it m that way. They are contented with a lower return for their labour, and thereby secure custom.
16086. We have evidence here that what they call the best Chinese cabinet-makers get 36s. a week and
found, what do you say a European workman of the same class would get ? A thoroughly good European
journeyman can get from £3 to £3 5s. a week. Some get higher than that, but they are exceptionally swift
and good workmen.
16087. The Chinese workman who receives 36s. a week, would cost his employer at the rate of 6s. a week
for food, and nothing for lodging, when he sleeps in the workshop, so that would be £2 2s. a week, as
against the £3 or £3 5s. paid to the European workman. Tour idea is that if a law were put in force
compelling them to provide a certain sleeping space, the Chinese employer would be compelled to pay a
higher rate of wage ? Tes.
16088. Do you think the employment of machinery is likely to bring down the price of labour for
European made furniture ? It has not done so as yet. Incidentally it has improved their wages, because
" while they get the old scale of prices, at piece-work, some of the work is done by machinery for them ;
that is to say, they get the benefit of the work done by machinery for them, and in many cases no
reduction in prices has been made since the machinery was introduced.
16089. Do you know to what extent, if at all, the Chinese market-gardeners interfere with the Europeans
in the same occupation ? I do not know whether they do much harm to the Europeans in that trade. I
know that the European market-gardeners object to the competition of the Chinese, but how much cause
they have I cannot say.
16090. Tou have heard of the disease called " scurvy ;" I understand it used to be prevalent in the
hospitals and asylums here at one time ; — do you know what causes that ? Living on salt fish generally,
and having insufficient vegetables.
16091. Do you know if it is a fact that since the Chinese came here the disease has disappeared
altogether ? I cannot answer, that. I have not been here long enough to know.
16092. Do you know any other trade in which the Chinese compete with the Europeans ? I do not know
of any other productive trade in which they compete. They are largely engaged as dealers, and hawkers,
and sellers of small commodities.
16093. Do they not engage in fruit-growing and fishing ? They sell fruit, and fish too I believe, but
whether they grow the one or catch the other I cannot say.
16094. Tou think it is principally as cabinet-makers and market-gardeners that they compete with the
Europeans ? Tes ; chiefly those two callings. I do not know of any others that are affected to any
degree by the Chinese.
16095. Do you know whether the Chinese cabinet-makers have increased or decreased in number during
the last twelve months ? I think there has been a slight decrease ; for the simple reason that a number
of Chinese have been going back to China, and no fresh ones have been admitted, or at most a very few,
so that there has been I should say a decrease of some hundreds in the number of Chinese in the Colony
during the year.
16096. It is stated that in a number of Chinese cabinet-makers' establishments there is plenty of goods in
stock and no market for them ; — do you know the cause of that ? There has been a remarkable depression
in our own trade during the last four or five months ; what the cause of it may be I cannot say at all ;
the unsettled state of political affairs may have contributed to it in some degree. _ The European manu-
facturers are in the same position, many of them, as you state, making large quantities, of stock and being
unable to get rid of it. _ .
16097. With regard to the mode of living, your idea is that efficient sanitary laws should be put m force
to embrace all conditions of people, no matter of what nationality ? Tes. I should like to see the
Chinese cabinet-makers living in small houses of their own as Europeans do. It seems to me the only
way in which to deal with the question is to raise the standard of comfort. I do not think there is much
bitterness of feeling between the respective races now, although it may have been thought necessary to
deter them from coming in, owing to their keen cheap labour competition with the Europeans.
16093 But you think with the use of the machinery which is being imported the European manufacturer
can compete with the Chinese? I think there is no doubt about it; as I have said I have it on the
authority of a gentleman in the trade who is well qualified to speak.
16099. Mr. Hawthorne.'] How long have you been in this Colony ? A little over three years.
16100. Tou learnt your business at home ? Tes, in London.
16101 How long were you apprenticed to the cabinet-making ? Three years. _ _
16102 Is that the usual time for apprentices to serve at the trade at home ? I may say it is not usual
for apprentices to be bound in the trade. I was not bound formerly, although that was an agreement
between my parents and my employers that I was to stay the three years._ _
16103. It is notnow usual to bind apprentices in the ordinary way, that is to have the indentures signed
by the contracting parties ? Not in London at all events.
436 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE.
Mr. W. A 16104. You spent three years in the house where you started to learn the business ? Yes.
Holman. 16105. At the end of that time did you begin as a journeyman? No, as an improver.
yfTT' 189i 36100. How long did you serve as an improver ? Two years.
cc'' ' 16107. "What rate of pay did you get during that time ? As an apprentice the first six months is served
for nothing ; the second six months, l^d. an hour is given, and following that, half-yearly increases of ^d.
an hour, until it amounts to 3Jd. an hour, when the apprenticeship is finished.
16108. And what are the wages of an improver ? They gradually rise up to 6 |d. or 7d. an hour.
16109. How many hours do they work ? As an apprentice, ten hours, and as an improver, nine hours.
16110. Did you work as a journeyman in England ? No.
16111. "What firm did you first work for here? For Verich & Co., a German firm, on the Darlington
Eoad.
16112. How many years have they been established there? Not more than eight years, I should think.
16113. Are there any other G-erman firms on a large scale in the city? Yes, there are other German
firms on a fairly large scale — Messrs. Vader & Co., and Mr. Like.
16114. How many hands does the first-mentioned firm employ ? About fifteen or twenty.
16115. And the last ? About the same number, or perhaps a few less.
16116. Do these firms confine themselves to any particular branch of the trade, or do they do' general
cabinet-making ? They do general cabinet-making in every case.
16117. Of what nationality are the workmen principally in these places? They are principally E lglish-
men and a few Germans or Danes, and Australian natives.
16118. They do not limit themselves to the nationality of the firm ? Not in the slightest.
16119. At what rate do they pay where you were worked — at Verich' s, for instance? By piece-work an
average man would make £2 10s. a week; a man slightly better would make as much as £3 or £3 5s.
16120. Do they classify them on piece-work at all ? No ; there is a price for every article.
16121. Supposing you made an ordinary chest of drawers, what price would they allow for that ? For a
chest of drawers with four drawers in the chest, about 20s. stock price ; but they have recently brought
over fresh machinery, and less work is done by the individual workman, so they have taken something oil
the price. They get about 17s. now.
16122. Have you ever tried to ascertain what a Chinaman is allowed for making a similar article ? No.
16123. "What would be the price of an English chest of drawers similar to what you have just described —
what would they get for making it ? That question I cannot answer, for this reason : that the English
articles they soil out here would be made in the East End of London, and I only worked in a West End
shop, where they do only the very first-class work. I believe most of the furniture imported here is made
from the East End .
16121. Mr. Abigail.'] Docs that remark regarding the AVest End apply to Tottenham Court Road; — is that
not a considerable place for exportation ? There is very little made in Tottenham Court Eoad — they are
generally sellers there.
16125. Do you know how the Chinese workmanship compares with that of the European ? The Chinese
workmanship is sound, but it is characterised by extreme clumsiness and want of finish. There is a
marked distinction between Chinese-made furniture and English-made.
16126. Mr. Hawthorne.] Could you pick out Chinese-made articles from others in a number offered for
sale in any of the auction rooms in town ? Yes ; I should be right in about nine cases out of every
twelve, I think.
16127. But how is it, if there is something so marked in a style of the furniture made by the Chinese as
compared with English workmanship that you would err to the extent of 33 per cent, in judging
between them ? For this reason, that in some cases one portion of the article is made by Chinese and
another by European labour, and the portion which is made by Europeans is screwed on by the seller
himself, or men whom he employs for the purpose. This gives the article the appearance at a causal
glance of European manufacture.
16128. Is it customary that a Chinaman should be allowed to make certain parts of furniture, the
Europeans being called upon to furnish the remainder ? Yes ; the wholesale houses would say, " "We
want so many tops for dressing-tables, or parts for wardrobes," and no questions would be asked. The
other portions would be made by Chinamen, and they would be fitted together on the premises of the firm
selling them.
16129. Is no objection made by European workmen to making certain portions of furniture for this
purpose ? I have never heard of objections being raised.
16130. Supposing you were in a workshop to-day among a number of men, and an order came in for a
great number of tops, and you imagined that these tops were to be put on structures made to receive them
by the Chinese, would there be no objection raised ? Not at present. I do not think so.
16131. Is there not a good deal of feeling against the Chinese on the part of European cabinet-makers ?
In some cases there is a bitter prejudice against them, but I do not think that is nearly so intense now as
it has been, because the Europeans are beginning to see now that they cannot compete against them.
16132. Supposing a law were passed compelling the branding of all Chinese-made furniture, so that
it could be readily distinguished by the public in the shops where it was offered for sale with other
furniture, do you think that would have the effect of increasing the demand for European-made furni-
ture? I think so, because there undoubtedly is a prejudice against Chinese-made furniture; and if
people could know with certainty that it was Chinese-made furniture, they would in a great many cases,
I believe, demand the European manufacture instead. The Chinese furniture is not sold more cheaply
to the general public than European-made furniture, so far as I am aware.
16133. Is there an opinion prevalent among European cabinet-makers that the depression of trade is owing
to the presence here of Chinese cheap labour ? Certainly there are a number of European cabinet-makers
who attribute the slackness of trade to the presence of the Chinese ; but personally I should be inclined
to ascribe it to the general depression.
16134. Have you known any instances of Europeau cabinet-makers engaging themselves to Chinese
manufacturing firms ? No ; I never heard of such a thing.
16135. Have you ever heard of an instance of Chinese furniture-makers in Sydney either directly or
indirectly employing European cabinet-makers ? No.
16136. Mr. Quong Tart.] How is it they do not make Austrian chairs in this country? They have not
the necessary plant, I suppose, and I believe the process is a secret. 10137.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 437
1^l^-^r- Hatvtlicrne.] Do you think the trade has as much or more to fear from the importation of Mr.W. A.
cheap European-made furniture as from the presence here of Chinese manufacturers of furniture ? I Holman.
do not think the importations would have as much effect as the presence of cheap labour in the com- , CT^T^.
munity. l r 17 Dec, 1891.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. Eichard Seymour re-called, and examined : —
16138. Mr. Abigail.] When you were first before this Commission as a witness, Mr. Seymour, you stated Mr.
i £■ LaS ml % Cnmese residences were, as a rule, in a good sanitary condition ? I did. R- Seymour.
16139. The Commission has since made an inspection, and tk. ;ave also a report from the Medical £T^->
Oincer to the Board of Health on certain places, among them Han Kee's in Lower George-street. There 17 Dec" mh
is a cellar there, with five cupboards, where people sleep, and when we visited that place it was simply in
a frightful state. . Did you visit that particular place ? We did, sir ; and when we visited it it was
perfectly clean.
l^ 1f°- Ttei1 we visited a place in Queen-street, where there are eight two-roomed houses, and we found
that there was no closet for any of those eight houses ; that they had to go to another street ; and we
found these places in a frightfully dirty and insanitary condition ? They have closets, but they are away
a little distance from the buildings, and all together.
.16141. The residents say they have no closets at all ? They have. There is a regular row of cottages
there, which were put up under my instructions ; and they also have locks and keys.
16142. "We then went to Goulburn-street, and visited several places where they had closed in the yard
space and made kitchens of them, and the cooking was being carried on within a foot of the closet. The
Mayor wras with us at the time, and he expressed the opinion that the state of things we saw was a
disgrace to the city ;— have you seen those places ? I have ; and I know what you state to be the fact.
16143. We bring this matter under your notice in this way in order that you may take whatever steps you
may think necessary. We next visited Robertson's-lane, and that large Chinese boarding-house there.
We found that in a deplorable state. On that also we have a report from the Medical Officer to the
Board of Health, Dr. Thomson, and he describes the water-closet accommodation there as being in a
filthy and generally disgraceful state, and altogether opposed to the sanitary regulations of the City
Council ? Whenever I visited that place the yards were thoroughly whitewashed every day, and the
closets were clean enough for anybody to sit upon. What Dr. Thomson saw when he was there of course
I do not know.
16144. The report says : — " The closets were quite dark, and so constructed as to be indescribable — I
mean as regards woodwork, &c. ; in this respect they were altogether improper, wet, filthy, and offensive.
The pans were of a very old and discarded pattern ; they were supplied with an insufficient stream of
water by a plug-valve in a barrel, which was supplied from the main by a ball-cock. There were two
such closets, and along them was an urinal, in the floor of which there was a little gully, with a water-tap
over it. All these fittings are improperly placed, of improper construction or form, and improperly
connected to the sewers." Have you any remark to make upon that? When I first took this place in
hand the vegetables of the Chinese hawkers were lying on the ground where the men slept. 1 told
them they must erect a stand not less than 3 feet from the ground all round, and another, and then
another, till all the vegetables were off the floor. That was done ; and I have seen the place scrubbed
and whitewashed, and the water-closets whitewashed every month, and sometimes once a week. The pans
were, perfectly clean whenever I- inspected the place. Of course there is always a certain smell about
them, as the Chinese stand upon the seats, and the water goes on the floor, and the smell complained of
is caused by urine and the opium.
16145. Mr. Abigail.] Reverting to those places where the residents have enclosed the yards so as to
increase the house accommodation, have you no power to interfere with that ? No ; that is in the
department of the building surveyor, under the Building Act.
16146. President.] Supposing the closet arrangements generally were not up to the latest inventions or
requirements in such matters, would you have the power,[seeing that these matters are now regulated
by the Water and Sewerage Board, to order the substitution of other fittings in place of the old ones ?
Decidedly not.
16147. Therefore, as far as Dr. Thomson's complaint about the improper construction of fittings and so
forth is concerned, you would have no authority to act ? No authority at all.
16148. Mr. Abigail] Could you make any complaint to anyone ? Tes ; to Mr. Smail, the chief engineer
of the Sewerage Board, and I have made repeated references to him on these matters.
16149. Have the Board inspectors ? They have a host of them.
16150. Mr. Abigail] Has the city building surveyor power to act in regard to these matters ? He has
power to bring anything before the City Improvement Board, and they may inspect the place and order it
to be removed.
16151. President.] That is if it was dilapidated ? Tes ; otherwise they would have no power.
16152. Asa matter of fact, the Improvement Board have no power to interfere in regard to matter of
sanitation ? No.
16153. Mr. Abigail] With regard to those eight houses in Queen-street, how far were the closets off the
houses ? They were formerly near the houses, but as they were directly connected with places under-
neath, I had them removed, and these places built some little distance away, where there is a passage
built for them. They are now about 6 yards away from the houses.
16154. Now, Mr. Seymour, I want to ask you a question or two with reference to the evidence you gave
before the Common Lodging-house Inquiry Committee some years ago. In giving your evidence upon
the effects of opium-smoking, you stated that girls were drugged by the Chinamen, and so on;— have you
any personal knowledge of the effect of opium ? I have seen it.
16155. Supposing I were to tell you that evidence has been given that it is impossible to drug a girl with
opium? It is simply nonsense. I will give you the very evidence which I gave the Committee you have
referred to. [The witness drams a rough diagram to illustrate Ms statement.] On the table was a lamp
in the centre, and a girl lying on either side. One was awake ; the other had let the pipe drop from her
lips and was 'asleep : 1 asked the one who was awake if the other girl was under the influence of opium,
1 ' r and
438 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. and she said " Yes." I asked how long it would be before she awakened, and she replied, "Two or three
R. Seymour. },ours. I thought I would like to test the effects of opium, and I therefore remained with Mr. David
'TT'"~T^1 Eobertson. I said, " We will try to waken her," and 1 pinched her repeatedly on the legs and on the
17 Dee., 1801. bottom) but sne never stirred ; and the other girl said, " Sou can pinch there for the next few hours, for
she is under the influence of opium." And so I found.
16L5G. Do you think the girl you pinched was under the influence of drink ? No, I am certain she was
not.
16157. You did not smell anything like the fumes of drink ? No. She was under the influence of
opium.
16158. Did you see the other girl, the second one, go off ? I did.
16159. And were the symptoms in her case the same ? The symptoms were exactly the same. The pipe
drops from the mouth, and. they go off. I have seen them sit in a chair where there has been no room to
lie down, and when the opium has taken effect they have fallen off the chair.
16160. Mr. Hawthorne.] What would you think of a number of opium-smokers, who have been smoking
opium for years, — stating that they never knew an instance when the smoking of opium had rendered a
person unconscious or unable to know what was going on around them, or to resist anyone interfering
with them ? I should say they were stating a deliberate falsehood. I have proved it.
16161. Mr. Abigail.] As a matter of fact you saw during that investigation you have spoken of
Chinamen using girls for their own purposes while they were under the influence of opium ? I did in a
house in Cambridge-street. There was a little red-headed girl there.
[The witness withdrew.]
MONDAY, 21 DECEMBER, 1891.
3P«0£itt:—
The Mayor oe Sydney (Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P.)» President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-President.
EAMSET McKILLOP, Esq., j QUONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mrs. Sims called and examined : —
Mrs. Sims. \q\q2. Mr. Abigail.] What position do you occupy, Mrs. Sims ? I am matron of the Church Home.
"rn^^Isqi 16163. How long have you held that position ? Nearly eighteen months.
" ' 16164. How many inmates of the Home are there ? At present there are 23 ; we have had during the
year over 40.
16165. And they go in and out of the institution I suppose ? They stay their stipulated time. The first
time they go in they stay for three months ; the second time, six months.
16166. Is that by compulsion ? Moral suasion. They sign an agreement before they are admitted that
they will stay for three months.
16167. What are the class of people you accommodate ? Well, it is an inebriates home.
16168. Have you not frequently given asylum to young women of immoral character and loose life ?
Ves, certainly.
16169. Do you remember having an inmate of your Home by the name of N J ? I think some
time ago — before my time — she was there.
16170. Do you know whether she has been in the institution several times ? I could not tell you without
reference to the record book, which shows when they come in and go out. I think she has been there two
or three times.
16171. Has it ever come under your notice that while this woman has been in the Home she has spoken
to other girls there, and induced them to go away with her to the Chinese places ? No ; I have never
heard of anything like that.
16172. Have you never heard of any of the inmates of that establishment exercising an influence of that
kind over girls, that is, for immoral purposes ? Ves.
16173. You have heard of that ? Yes ; and there have been one or two brought away from improper
houses, where there have been Chinese.
16174. Brought to the Home from these places? Ves, brought to the Home.
16175. Has it ever been brought under the notice of the committee of management ? Oh, yes. A
report is submitted to them every week. I may say that the committee meet every week, and at this
meeting a short report is given of what has transpired with regard to new inmates, as far as I am able to
ascertain. But they are very seldom truthful.
16176. Did your committee ever take any action affecting these girls who acted as decoys to the others in
the institution ? No ; I think not. Vou see, they have to go simply upon what these girls say. I may
mention one case that we had from Bathurst — -a young girl of only 14 years of age. Dean Marriott took a
great interest in the girl, and tried very hard to induce her to leave her mother, who was certainly a very
shocking character, but without effect. We have ladies doing mission work in connection with the Home,
and when the missionary went to the house in which this girl was found, she was discovered with a
Chinaman there. It was the mother, I suppose, trying to get her living in that dreadful way. The girl
was very young, and we took her away, and had her with us for several months.
16177. Did your committee never represent to the police that they could have proceeded against the
young girl under the Industrial Schools Act, and have her taken to the Shaftesbury School, or some such
institution ? Yes ; but they take no notice, and this was a special case from Bathurst. The ladies there
took a great interest in trying to save the girl, and had been in communication with the Rev. Mr. Tress,
our secretary.
16178. In this case the mother of this girl was trying to make a portion of the means of her livelihood
by the prostitution of her daughter ? Sol was told.
16179. Have you had any other case? of girls as young as that? Yes ; we had another young girl 15
yearj of age. >
16180.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
16180. Pardon me one moment ;— did it ever come to your, knowledge that a Chinaman was the cause of Mrs. Sims,
that girl s downfall in the first instance ? I do not know 1 hat. •— r-^— s
16181 Now, about this other girl, of 15 years of age ? This girl was taken out of a brothel in, I think, 21 Deo-> 1891-
Lamp bell- street, where there were Chinese. The police know all about that. The people of this girl are
in Brisbane, and there is a clergyman there who has taken a great interest in a little sister of hers. She
has no mother. I wrote to Mr. Stonerigg, in Brisbane, about this girl, who had led a shocking life. She
was barely 16 years of age. The police arrested her, in the house of a Mrs. , one of the worst
places in Surry Hills. She afterwards told me that there was a Chinaman there, and that Mrs.
really got her living by trafficking with these girls.
16182. Have you had other girls who have been associated with Chinese in your institution ? Tes ; but
they have leit.
16183. Have you any record of girls that have been redeemed through your establishment ? Wo. We
send so many into the country. In fact we do our best to get them away from their old habits and
associations.
16184. Then you do not know how many have gone back to their old course of life ? No. Those who
leave the town occasionally write, and seem to be doing pretty well. Last year I sent two girls into the
country, and one of them married very well indeed. Those who go away do far better than those who
get situations here, because they get right away from the scenes of old temptations. Of course there are
exceptions to the rule. There was one very superior girl, who would not lead a life like I have been
describing, but who nevertheless could not do any good for herself, whom we got some very good people
to take in hand, and she is doing exceedingly well.
16185. Did it ever come under your notice that the first betrayal of these girls was traceable to Chinamen ?
Tes ; I think so.
16186. Tou have heard of it ? Tes. That little girl, • , who was living with Mrs. , told
me that there was a Chinaman living there, and used to entice young girls. This young girl that I speak
of is a very attractive little creature. Hers is a wasted life, indeed.
16187. Did you ever hear that opium was an agent in the betrayal of these girls ? Oh, yes ; I have heard
them say that they do smoke opium.
16188. Have you ever inquired of them the effects of opium-smoking ? Tes ; I have always been
interested in this work very deeply. They say it has quite an opposite effect from drink. It makes them
almost lifeless and stupid.
16189. That is what I want to ascertain; — what you have just now stated is from their own admission to
you ? Tes.
16190. I asked you that question because we have been told by several young women who have used
opium that it has no such effect ; on the other hand we have evidence, that the effect is to render them
semi-unconscious and powerless to resist any one who may interfere with them ? I quite believe the
latter from what they have told me. They have also told me that the " craving" is very great — much
greater than in the case of drink, and that when they get the opium habit it' is far more difficult to give
up. It never excites them. But they feel to want it, to get into a state of oblivion or something like it.
16191. Mr. McRillop.~] A perfectly languid state ? Tes.
16192. Mr. Abigail^] Are you satisfied with the result of your eighteen months' work in the Church
Home ? Tes ; on the whole I think it has been satisfactory.
16193. Do you know of many cases where the inmates have acted treacherously by inducing other girls
to go back to their old courses ? I think sometimes bad influence is brought to bear by some of the
inmates, and then when their time comes they clique together as it were. In fact, so dangerous is this
power of association felt to be that some of the girls who wish to do good will themselves beg to be sent
to the country.
16191. When you know that girls have acted in that traitorous way do you still admit them a second and
third time ? No ; if there is a bad record of them in that way they are not admitted.
16195. Mr. McKillop.'] Do you know a girl by the name of ? Tes ; she I believe, is an
opium-smoker.
16196. We have had information here that she has been the means of decoying young girls from the
institution for immoral purposes ;— do you know anything of that ? No ; I may say there arc two
, ( one Mary and the other the one we call Sid. . The other one is an older woman
a good deal, and of bad character. She kept an improper house herself in Goulburn-street.
16197. According to the evidence this I asked you about was the means of taking a young
girl out of respectable employment and bringing her down to one of these Chinese dens ;— I suppose that
must have been the elder one ? Tes ; I dare say. Sid. drinks, but she is one of the best-
behaved women when she is in the Home.
16198. According to the evidence of the young woman m question she was an inmate ot the Church.
Home' when this woman • ■ was there, and she describes her as one of the hardest workers there, and
in fact that on that account the authorities tried to keep her ? Tes. .,.„,-, £
16199. But that when she got outside she seemed to lose all control of herself and acted as a sort ot
decoy ? Tes ; I quite believe that. _
16200 Do you know of any other girls who have had the same experience as the one 1 have mentioned i
No • I do not think so. Sid. has been there for twelve or eighteen months at a time.
16201 Is she of the unfortunate class ? Tes ; she was also in the " House of the Good Samaritan" for
some time She came the other day and asked for admission to the Home. There was no record against
her except that when she was in before she was entrusted to go out to make some small purchases for
washing and came back intoxicated, that being her unfortunate liability ; otherwise there was no bad
record of her. She had never escaped or tried to get away ; so she was admitted.
16202 Tou tolerate all their weaknesses until they are beyond redemption ? Tes. It is like a home ot
mercv We know they will fall again, and again perhaps. But it is never too late as I tell them,
although I do believe when once they begin to indulge in opium it is perfectly hopeless. They seem to
suffer from almost complete loss of moral and physical power .
16203 Mr Abigail^] Can you tell how many of the girls in the Home have acquired the habit ot opium-
smoking? I cannot tell you that. They do not have it there.
16204 Mr McKillop.-] Have you heard that there are recognised '-decoys" whose business it is to procure
young girls for purposes of prostitution ? Tes. I cannot tell you who they are. But I have no doubt
410 CHINESE (UMBLI3JG COMMISSION — MIX! TES OF EVIDENCE.
Mrs. Sims, about it whatever. I know of one case, o£ a woman who stayed almost two 3-ears in the Home — a superior
/■— "**— "~^ sort of person ; and I know she has tried to decoy others who have left the Home. I have not been able
21 Dec, 1891. t0 diSCOver her whereabouts. Only the other day I received a slight intimation. I know she has kept a
house of ill-fame, and three or four girls who have been in the Home and subsequently done well in
situations found for them, have eventually found their way there. She has I believe a place somewhere
in Devonshire-street. I believe she used to smoke opium. Her name is ■■
1G205. From your experience in dealing with these young girls you consider that the opium habit has a
more injurious effect than if they took to intoxicating drink ? It is harder for them to give up.
1G206. They become perfect slaves to it ? Tes. I have known cases where we have had them come in
perhaps intoxicated, and when after a week perhaps they have become all right again, the craving has
been so great that they have come and begged to be let out. When it has been pointed out that they
have signed for three months and that it is not in my power to deal with such an application until the
committee meet again, they have tried in every way to get out. Then snuff is_ a thing which these
unfortunate creatures take a great quantity of. The other day a woman was grinding up something, and
on making inquiry I found that it was an old clay pipe she had found, and she was grinding that up for
snuff because she could not get the proper thing. f
1G207. Prostitution is a good deal on the increase I suppose ? Tes, I think it is, particularly amongst
the very young.
1G208. Surry Hills and about that neighbourhood appears to be a regular hot-bed for that sort of thing r
Tes. It is truly a horrible place. We have a young girl who had been in one of those places. She is
respectably connected. She showed me a letter from her friends in New Zealand. This girl is not 17
years of age yet, and she was a mother at 15. I do not think the police are as a rule sufficiently vigilant.
I have had to make a complaint in consequence of three of the worst characters in the neighbourhood
assembling night after night under the windows of the Church Home, and making use of the most obscene
language, and calling out to the women where they should go to, naming a certain house. The disturbance
made by these half-drunken women and men of the lowest type used to wake us up at night.
1G209. Mr. Abigail.) Were any of these young women? Tes. There is one quite young— only 17
years of age. That little one that I have spoken of was with them one night, with an older woman, one
of a most notorious character. I mentioned the circumstance to the committee. It was_ something
dreadful the way in which these women used to go on, between 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning, calling
out to the women in the Home by their names. The committee set a detective to work, and since theu
we have had peace. These women were only doing that to induce those inside to go to their houses ;
they called out where they were living in fact.
1G210. Mr. McKillop.] So as to give them their address ? Certainly. One of them sang out, " Girls and
women, I am close by here in Eiley-street."
10211. Have any of these girls escaped from your Home ? Tes. They have escaped.
1G211£. They have occasionally got over the wall? Tes. When the craving comes on they will get
desperate.
16212. And also through the overtures made by these women you have been speaking of ? Tes. We
cannot keep them over their time, and suppose they do not go before they can go to these places then.
If they are bent upon it. Sometimes they will not go to the country.
16212^. In the Home, of course, they are always well treated? Tes; and they have the best of food.
There is no stint of food, and everything is abundant and wholesome. It is also cooked for them.
1G213. What work or duties do the inmates perform ? They perform laundry work. It would never do
to keep forty women idle.
10214. President.'] I suppose it would be easier to keep forty men in order ? It would be easier to deal
with a hundred men I tell them.
102 15. Mr. McKillop.~\ Do you find them a great trouble to keep in order ? I do not find them trouble-
some when I am in the house.
1G21G. Some of the older women are unruly I suppose ? No ; I think the younger ones are the worst.
1G217. I suppose they feel their position more keenly when they come to their senses than the older
ones? Tes. We had another young girl, an orphan, without any friends in Sydney, whom we got a
situation with some Christian people at Wollongong, who treated her like a daughter. In fact everything
possible was done for her. But the result was not encouraging. Whether she had been corresponding
with some of her old companions I do not know ; but she suddenly got dissatisfied — Wollongong did not
agree with her, and she left after staying six months. She was given an excellent character by the people
with whom she had been living. They said they could not have had a better servant; yet that same girl
is now living in a dreadful way in Sussex-street. She is only 17 years of age.
16218. Are you in the habit of asking the inmates of your Home their nationality when they are admitted?
Tes ; always, and their history.
16219. Are they principally girls of Australian birth ? A great number of them are.
16220. Are the majority of Australian ? Well, I will not say the majority ; I think it is about half and
half. We have one Chinese half-caste there. She is an inveterate smoker ; if she can get the means to
indulge in it, and I have been told an opium-smoker too.
16221. Mr. Abigail.'] She smokes cigarettes, I suppose ? No ; if she can get a clay pipe, that is what
she likes. I do not think anything so refined as a cigarette would satisfy them.
16222. Have you heard at anytime that the Chinese are, in the first place, responsible for the downfall
of these girls by employing decoys to bring respectable young girls to their place ? No, I cannot say I
have heard that.
16223. Have you heard on the other hand that these girls have been decoyed for the purpose of enabling
the women who keep these places to receive the money which the Chinamen will give them ? Oh, yes,
those who keep the houses. That Mrs. is one of them. I think that woman ought to be hunted
out of Sydney — she has decoyed so many girls.
16224. Can you give us her address ? I am not quite certain. I think I have got it at home. It is
somewhere in G-oulburn-street. The police know her well
16225. Can you forward the address of this woman to Sydney ? Tes. I would do anything to bring
about her expulsion from Sydney. When three of the young girls were being taken to Mr. Hargrave's
Church, which is close to the Home (I was absent at the time, my place being supplied by the sub-matron)
the
CHINESE GAMMING COMMISSION — MINUTES 03? EVIDENCE. 44l
they bolted, and two of them I know were in houses where there were Chinese. One 6f: theni Was taken Mrs. Sims.
i p«wfiT^ cellartei- Sessions, and was sentenced to 12 months. She is under 16 years of age. ' *■ *
ib^b. Do you know of any other notorious brothel-keeper or procuress like this woman Mrs. ? 21 Dec.,1891r
xes, there was another woman in Campbell-street.
}%™l' S°W }°ag J18,8 y0ur Home been in existence ? About six years I think.
i£ooq 5ow,lonS have, v°u been in 0charge of ^ ? I have been in charge about eighteen months.
16229. You have no children there ? No, only women.
16230. Mr. Hawthorne.-] How do you know the police took no notice of what you stated about the young
woman that ran away ? They never troubled themselves
™' £™ ^°u <luite s*"e ?, .They said ^ey could not find them. But I found out for myself.
^2. Did the committee bring the matter before Mr. Posbery ? I do not think they did.
lbl.id. Do you think it fair to charge the police with neglect of duty, when your committee did not
think proper to communicate with the head of the police department on the subject? They ought to
have done it certainly.
10234. Did you make any complaint to the police themselves in regard to it ? No. But I went to the
7™oJ1St!-j Statlon two or three times and gave a description of the ages and appearances of the girls.
16235. Did you see Inspector Bremner there ? I do not know the officer by name.
16236. A stout, fair- whiskered man ? No. He was a tall sickly-looking man that I saw.
16237. Did they make a record of it? Tes.
16238. Did they evince any interest in the matter? I do not think so.
16239. Have you had occasion, either before or since the case you have mentioned, to report to the police
anything in connection with the desertion of any of the girls from your institution ? Oh yes. But I
think only on one occasion did they arrest a woman for us. It was just before the three girls went away
that I have spoken of, in the case of a notorious character who cleared out, and I laid au infor nation
against her to have her arrested.
16240. Tou know the woman ? Tes.
16211. Is Bhein the Home at present? No, she is in Murdoch's Homo in Paddington. I think the
authorities ought to weed out that place.
16242. How is that Home you speak of managed or maintained ? They, that is, Mr. and Mrs. Murdoch,
get their living by laundry work ; they do nothing else.
16243. Are they people of known respectability ? I know nothing of them except what the women have
told me, who have been there. This is a good worker. She was two years in our Home and nearly
two years with the Sisters of the Good Samaritan.
16241. Is she a Roman Catholic ? Tes.
16215. She has taken turn about, between the Eoman Catholic Institution and the Church Home, which
I take to be Church of England, is it not ? Tes. But our Home is open to all, of whatever denomination.
16246. The same remark applies to the Home of the Good Samaritan, does it not ? I dare say. I have
often asked them how it is, because they must carry on the rules, although there is no proselytising.
16217. So that in your Home the Eoman Catholic inmates have to conform to the Church of England
rules and attend the service, though they may not actually join in it ? Tes.
16218. And the same thing applies I suppose in the Home of the Good Samaritan ? Tes, I suppose so.
The Sisters say they need not follow the service, but still they have to be there.
16249. Tou have said that Murdoch's Home in Paddington is a place that ought to be put down ? Tes.
16250. What is your special objection to that place ? I do not think it is carried on with due regard
for the welfare of the unfortunates who frequently find their way there. I can mention a case that
occurred the other day : I saw that she had been taken up by the police and was remanded. Her mother
was very anxious about her. I sent a lady missionary to find her — she found her in Mrs. Murdoch's —
with a message from her mother. She came half intoxicated. I said, " I am very sorry to see you liko
this ; you know the promise you made to your mother." I may say that her mother ha 1 sent mo a com-
plete outfit for her, and asked me to send her back home for Christmas. She said she would not give
her mother the expense of her journey, and would take a situation for a few weeks (this was in Novem-
ber), and save the money to go home. I thought it was a very commendable thing, so I got her a situa-
tion but she did not keep it more than ten days, and she went straight to Murdoch's, where the missionary
had found her. I asked her if she did not think she was ungrateful, to come to the Church Home when
she was in trouble and then to go to that place. The reply was, that the food they got there was inferior,
and the place was dirty, but that Mrs. Murdoch allowed them to get as much drink as they liked. This,
of course, they could not get in the Church Home.
16251. Generally speaking, she complained of the place ? Tes.
16252. And the only attraction in the place for herself and other girls of the fallen order was that Mrs.
Murdoch, the keeper of this Home, allowed them to have as much drink as they liked ? Tes.
16253. What age is this woman you have been speaking of ? About 22. I asked her, " Why not go to
the sisters ?" — She is a Eoman Catholic — and she said, " Oh, no ; I cannot go and shut myself up there."
16254. With regard to this woman whom you have had in the Home, have you known of any
instances where she has enticed some of the younger inmates of the Home to go away ? Not of my own
personal knowledge, but I know that she kept an improper house and have known several that lived with
her. girls who have been in the Home. .,.,,. n T
16255 Is it not dangerous to allow women of that stamp to make use of the institution— dangerous, 1
mean to the younger inmates of the institution who may be desirous of reforming their lives ? I have
never had that idea of that she would entice young girls to go into or resume evil courses.
16256 Would you be surprised to learn that a witness before this Commission, and who had been in your
Home for some months a few years ago, attributed her downfall to the fact that she was induced to leave
her situation by this woman ( ), and go to live amongst the Chinese on the Eocks ? I should be
surprised. I have never heard anything of the kind. But I know there are two . One of them
is a very bad character ; she is called Polly or Mary — .
16257 Were they both in your institution at the same time ? No.
16258! What stamp of woman is this other one ? A dreadful looking woman.
16259. How long is it since this one was in the institution ? A long time ago— before my time ; but i
think her name is in the books. ,,.„„»
272-3 K lfa260'
442 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE*
Mrs. Sims. 1G2G0. "Who preceded you ? Mrs. Pool.
•"*>-*- — * 16261. Do you allow the inmates of the Home to mix together indiscriminately, the vile with the
21 Dec, 1891 apparently innocent ? Yes ; the accommodation is not large enough to enable us to classify them.
16202. Do you think the Home is well adapted for the purposes which it aims to carry out ? No ; and I
know the committee do not think so ; bat they have no funds to provide additional accommodation.
Those who work in it feel its unsuitability for the purpose. It is not large enough, and therefore we
cannot classify the inmates.
1G2153. Have you ever suggested to the committee the desirability of endeavouring, by some means or
other, to remove to larger quarters, so that you might be able to classify the inmates ? Yes ; and they
fully recognise it ; but, as I have said, the necessary funds are wanting.
16264. Do you not think, in conducting an institution of that kind, that the cure is worse than the evil,
in bringing young females of tender years to a place like that, and placing them day and night with old
and depraved women ? Certainly there is great danger ; but my experience in the Home is that the young
ones are as bad as, or worse than, the old ones.
16265. How often do your committee publish a report ? Once a year.
16266. Has it appeared in your report that the committee are anxious to secure funds for better
premises ? Yes.
16267. Has it been set forth to the public and the subscribers ? I think all the subscribers knew about
it ; but the Home has been worked so very quietly that many people do not know of its existence. In
fact there are not many subscribers. The Church of England people form a wealthy community, and
they should certainly respond.
162G8. Do the committee of management visit the Home regularly ? Yes ; every Tuesday ; and several
ladies go amongst the women in the rooms. They know everything, even to the smallest trifle, that
goes on.
16269. During the eighteen months you have presided over the Church Home have you met with many
cases of young women who have been in the habit of living with the Chinese in the city ? Yes ; I have
mentioned one or two.
16270. Have there been only two cases ? There were two, perhaps three ; but I am positive about two.
16271. Do you find that — the association with the Chinese— to be a danger to the morals of the young
women with whom you have to deal ? Yes ; and I may say that I find there is very little hope of perma-
nent reformation of girls who once take up with the Chinese and frequent their dens. Because wherever
they may be we find that they generally go back to that life again. In the case of this whom
I took from the police court, when we got outside several disreputable-looking women came round her ;
' but I cleared them off, and got the girl into a cab. The magistrate told me that if I was going to send
her away to Brisbane, where she has friends, not to let it be known here that she was going, as the
Chinese in Sydney would communicate with their friends there the intelligence.
16272. Have these girls ever told you what is the reason they find their way back to the Chinese when
once they have been cohabiting with them ; is it because the Chinese give them more money than the
Europeans ? Yes, I think it is that.
16273. Have you ever found that it is on account of opium-smoking? I think it is the two combined.
They say the Chinese are kinder, and give them what they want, and more money ; and, of course, they
begin to smoke opium.
16274-. "When these girls who have been accustomed to opium-smokiog are admitted to the Home do they
suffer much ? The craving sometimes is very great. At first I did not know what it was. They become
restless, cross, ill-tempered. "When they first come to the Home it is a week before they are put to any
work, and are allowed to remain quiet in their beds if they liked. If they feel inclined to come to meals,
well and good ; if not, it is sent up to them. "When they come down to work they get restless and uneasy.
One of them said to me on one occasion, " You have no idea what the craving is."
1G275. Does this craving for opium seem even greater than the craving for drink on the part of inebriates ?
Ihey say it is. Their food they cannot look at, the craving is so great. They want something to soothe
them. The opium, they say, makes them stupid — paralyses them, as it were, and it is harder to give up.
16276. Have you found that the girls who have indulged in opium-smoking previous to entering the
house are also drunkards, or the reverse ? They take both.
16277. You think one accompanies the other ? If they cannot get opium they take drink.
10278. And if they could get the opium ? Then they would be satisfied with that.
1U279. It removes the craving for drink ? Yes.
16280. Speaking as an observer in your official position, which do you think the greater evil, opium-
smoking or the indulgence in strong drink on the part of females ? I think one is as bad as the other.
16281. "Which would you feel most confident of being able to permanently cure ? Drink, I should say.
16282. You would have less hope of curing a confirmed opium-smoker than one given to drink ? Yes.
16283. Mr. Quong Tart.'] How many women have been admitted to the institution during your time ?
Prom thirty-eight to forty on an average. In the winter months there are more ; it is then too cold
to sleep out in the parks. In the summer months they go to the different laundries ; in the winter they
have not the work to do.
16284. Of what ages are the inmates generally ? Erom fifteen years and upwards. When they are first
admitted they sign to stay for three months, after their admission has been approved of by the
committee.
16285. Do the committee ever decide not to admit them ? In some cases, but not often.
16286. The object of the institution is to try to reform them ? Yes.
16287. But some of them are too far gone, 1 suppose ? Yes ; I am afraid that is the case sometimes.
16288. Do you know how many of these girls have been found in the Chinamen's places ? I cannot tell
you, but recently there have been three.
16289. That is during eighteen months ? Yes.
16290. How many have been found in European places of bad repute ? A great number I fancy. I
cannot tell you that. Of course tbey do not all come from improper houses ; some of them have fallen
through drink.
16291. Eeferring to the two girls who were found in the Chinese quarters, I suppose .you do not know
whether they were virtuous before they went to the Chinese places ? I do not.
16292.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 443
16292. Of what nationality were the young girls that were found with the Chinese ? They were natives, Mrs. Sims.
1 think I do Dot know whether this little girl I speak of was born in Queensland. I know her people ' *— ^
are m Brisbane ; she ran away from there. I asked her if she was acquainted with the Chinese there, 21 D(?c-> 1891>
and she said no, that it was at Mrs. house that she first became acquainted with a Chinaman. Her
mother died and her father placed her with some people who were very strict; she did not like the
restraint, and ran away to Sydney.
™' 4nd Wj-S the\first Place she topped at Mrs. ? Yes. The police arrested her there.
1W94. Kegardmg the opium, do you think it would be a good thing to stop its importation into the
Oolony r- 1 think they ought to, certainly. I lived twelve years in India, and that is the most iniquitous
o g- Trre' J get so awfull7 demoralised, they cannot shake it off.
16290. Have you any watchmen to keep the inmates from clearing out? No ; they Dever give us any
trouble, except when they quarrel among themselves. I find more trouble with the young girls who have'
had money in their possession, and money to dress ; they feel the restraint.
16296. With regard to Murdoch's establishment, you say it is a laundry and is also a home for these
women ? Yes ; they are simply kept there.
16297. No pay ? No ; but there are facilities for getting drink.
1629S. Mr. McKillop.) "What is the name of the laundrv ? Murdoch's Home. I certainly think that is
a place which ought to be looked after.
16299. I suppose it is purely and simply a sweating-den ? I think so. They have tol'd me over and over
again it is a dreadful place. I know nothing of Mrs. Murdoch but what I have heard from the women,
• who have told me that she supplied them with beer sometimes, and let them get out at all hours of the day.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. Quong Tart examined : —
16300. Mr. Abigail, .] Tou carry on business in various parts of the city, Mr. Tart? Tes. Mr.
16301. How long have you been in this Colony ? About thirty years. Quong Tart.
16302. Tou have a very intimate knowledge of what is being done in the way of Chinese gambling and 91"^T'A~7!^,
opium-smoking in this city ? Yes, a fair knowledge. -21 Doc, 1831.
16303. Now, I want to ask you, Mr. Tart, are you connected in any way, either directly or indirectly,
with gambling in the city or any part of the Colony ? Not to the extent of a farthing.
16301- . You are quite sure of that ? I am certain.
16305. Have you any close relatives who are connected with any of these gambling-dens, or carrying
them on? No, certainly not.
16306. So that if anyone has said that you have a number of relatives who are running gambling-shops,
and that you share in the profits, that would be untrue ? That is untrue.
16307. It has been stated in two or three quarters that you have a number of relatives who are carrying
on gambling business, and that in fact you receive a share of»the profits ; that you are simply humbugging
the Commission and the public by your seeming attempts to put down gambling ; — and you now declare
that statements of that kind are absolutely without any foundation ? Yes ; I should very much like to
bring those persons who have made such statements to the proof.
16308. Mr. Hawthorne.^ Having heard that such statements have been made against you, as a Royal
Commissioner, would you like, in justice to yourself, and in the interests of the public generally, that the
person or persons who have made charges against you of having an interest in gambling-houses should be
brought before the Commission for examination? Yes ; that is my wish.
16309. You know Long Pen ? Yes.
16310. And you heard him make a statement before the Commission that your relatives were mixed up
in gambling ? No.
16311. You know Mr. Gouldtown? Yes.
16312. Mr. McKillop.~\ I wish to examine you on the opium question. As a man of experience in regard
to opium-smoking on the part of your countrymen, do you think it a fact the use of opium in this way by
men or women in the first stage causes them to be drugged or to lose their senses ? I do not think it
makes them senseless — it makes them half-stupid. But when once they acquire the habit, and get
thoroughly used to it, they must smoke at the stated hours during the morning, afternoon, and night,
whenever it is that they have accustomed themselves to it. Then, if you stop them smoking, they will
feel desperate enough to do anything ; in fact they would run a knife through you. They get into a
dreadful state, vomiting, and tears running from their eyes. Then when they have a smoke they feel
better, and after they have taken a certain quantity they feel like half-sleepy or dozey.
16313. Are they powerless ? Yes ; that is what I have learnt from opium-smokers. In China there are
very strict laws with regard to the opium traffic ; in fact the G-overnment will not allow the people to
grow the poppy, from which opium is produced. When I was in China I made inquiries on this subject,
and in answer to questions which I put as to the reason for this strict prohibition of the growth of the
poppy I was told that the Government regarded the traffic in opium as a great evil— that if they once
allowed the poppy to be grown the result would be to injure and destroy the Chinese right and left, and
stop all useful industries, such as rice-growing. It would, in fact, be a national calamity. Indeed, they
.-feel hopeful that some day they will be able to make arrangements with England to stop the importation
of opium by paying down a lump sum. . .
16314. I suppose you have had experience m different Colonies in Australia? No. All my life nearly
has been spent in New South Wales.
16315. Have you lived in Victoria? No, only visited. ...... . , L .
16316. Do you know from any authority whether opium-smoking is indulged m to a larger extent by
Europeans in Victoria or New South Wales ? ■ — _ .,.,-,
16317. Do you know any reason why that is so ? Only that the Chinese perhaps come more intimately
into relations with the Europeans in Victoria. _ _
16318 I suppose on account of the extent of gold-diggings in Victoria the Europeans see more of the
Chinese, and get into their quarters, and thus learn to smoke opium ? Yes, I think so
16319 You are quite sure that the percentage of Europeans who smoke opium is much larger m Victoria
than in New South Wales ? Yes, a great deal larger. Some years ago In specter Brennan and I went round
on a visit of inspection, and we saw a great deal worse than can be seen in bydney-50 per cent, worse.
1G320. Men and women smokers ? Mostly women. lOdJl.
4li Chinese gambling commission — minutes of evidence.
Mr. 16321. Did you go through the towns of New South Wales ? Yes ; I went through Narrandera, Albury,
Quong Ta "Wagga Wagga, Hay, Deniliquin, and Urana.
eilT^sQi 1G322- Alld do y°u tnink it is a fact tnat i<; is because of first taking to opium-smoking that these girls
ec, laai. are found living permanentiy in the Chinese quarters ? Tes. In fact any Chinese living with a woman
would try all he knew to induce her to stop smoking.
16323. Why is that — because she gets useless or indifferent to sexual intercourse ? Tes. It gradually
wears them away, so that they are no good for anything.
16324. And, therefore, you are of opinion that the Government ought to adopt stringent measures to
check the evil, by preventing the importation of opium to the Colony ? Except for medicinal purposes.
16325. Tou think it is bad for the youug life of the Colony ? Tes. If it is one part good it is a thousand
parts bad. But I must say this, that I think it is unjust oil the part of the Government, after allowing the
'importation of opium, and charging an import duty upon it, not to allow the Chinese to sell it. No Chineso
in this Colony could hold a license under the present Act. They have to take out a diploma of some kind.
16326. Would you suggest that they should restrict it in the same way that thoy do gunpowder— that is,
allow them to have certain quantities at a time, and by showing that their stock is sold out, be enabled to
got in a fresh supply, as they do powder from the magazine, under the Gunpowder Act. Could not some-
thing similar to that he applied to the Chinese chemists in the case of opium ? I think it would be found
difficult to carry out in that way.
16327. However, you are of opinion that some stringent measure should be adopted for checking the large
importation of opium into the Colony ? Tes.
16328. Are you aware whether there is a largo amount of smuggling going on among the Chinese ? I.
cannot say that. I have not taken any interest in the Chinese trade whatever.
16329. President.] Tou swear positively that you are not associated with the Chinese bankers in the city,
who provide means of gambling for your countrymen ? Tes. I have not the slightest connection with
them in any way whatever. , .
16330. Is it a fact that you have at any time assisted your countrymen to smuggle in opium ? No,
certainly not.
16331. And you are not part- proprietor of any of these gambling-dens? No.
16332. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Tou know Mr. Ung Quay ? Tes.
16333. He was examined before this Commission ? Tes.
16334. What is he ? He is a merchant, and was agent for Gihbs, Bright, & Co.
16335. Is he agent for Gibbs, Bright, & Co. now ? No. I think he has given that up.
16336. Is he a man that stauds in good esteem amongst the better class of Chineso ? He used to stand
very well with the merchants, but he does not now.
16337. What is the reason that he has fallen in the esteem of the respectable Chinese in the city ?
Probably because his connections may not have been straightforward.
16338. At Question 4226 Mr. Ung Quay is reported to have said, in answer to a question I put to him
as to whether he was opposed to gambling, * Tes, and at the time I told you of it 1 did all I could, so far
as giving information to the Quarter Sessions about the gamblers ; then some of Mr. Quong Tart's relatives
acted for the other side, and one or two storekeepers who had worked with mo worked together with
Quong Tart's relatives, and I gave it up. Most of these gamblers are Mr. Quong Tart's relatives." Now.
is that true or untrue ? It is untrue.
16339. Tou have no relatives engaged in gambling ? None whatever.
16340. The persons whom Mr. Ung Quay speaks of as being your relatives are simply persons who como
from the same part of China as yourself ? Tes.
16341. They are no blood relations of any kind ? No.
16342. Have you heard it stated that Mr. Ung Quay has himself been identified with some of these
gambling-dens ? Tes, I have.
16343. Tou heard a witness before this Commission state that Mr. Ung Quay was connected with some
of these gambling-dens ? Tes.
16344. And also that he did it quietly, and did not want it to be known that he was connected with them,
and frequently went in at night to some of these places ? Tes.
16345. Do you remember our visiting one of the Chinese gambling-dens in the city, and seeing amongst; a
number of other Chinese pictures one in which Mr. Ung Quay was taken in a group ? Tes. That was
in a noted gambling-house.
16346. It has been distinctly stated that Mr. Ung Quay has an interest in certaiu of these gambling-
houses, sharing as a partner ? Tes.
16347. He does not allow his name to appear, of course ? No ; he is to cute for that. He is very clever.
16348. He is a man of considerable ability and a good deal of cunning ? Tes.
16349. Do you think it was connections like this, among other things, coming to the knowledge of his
countrymen in the city, that caused him to forfeit the good name that he previously had with the better
class of Chinese ?■ Tes.
16350. Does your knowledge of the Chinese merchants in the city lead you to think that they have done
their very best to suppress gambling and opium-smoking ? Tes. I believe they do their best ; but they
are afraid to act very openly, because it is dangerous.
16351. They are afraid to show their hands in consequence of the danger they incur from the opposition
of the Chinese who do indulge in opium-smoking and gambling ? Tes.
16352. In fact the same thing applies to you in a sense, so far as the attitude of a section of the Chinese
is concerned ; that is to say, your presence on this Commission, acting as a Commissioner appointed by
the Government, has caused a considerable amount of ill-feeling to be exhibited towards yourself by the
Chinese engaged in gambling ? Tes ; a very great amount of ill-feeling. I have heard that one Chinaman
said that he would split me up in four pieces if he could get hold of me, for acting on the Commission.
1G353. In accepting a seat on this Commission you were simply actuated by a desire to suppress the
vices alleged to exist among a section of your countrymen in this Colony? Tes.
16354. I believe you have published a pamphlet on the opium question, and have worked for years to try
and suppress that evil, besides doing your best to stamp out gambling ? Tes ; and I have spent my own
money in it.
[The witness resumed his seat at the Board.]
TUESDAJ,
CHINESE GAMBLING: COMMISSION — MISUTES OF EVIDENCE. 445
TUESDAY, 22 DEOEMBEB, 1891.
•li'mttt:—
The Mayor oe Sydney (Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), ^resident.
EEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P, Yice-Presidext.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TAET, Esq.,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Mr. Michael Daley called and examined :—
16355. President.'] You are a stevedore, Mr. Daley ? Yes Mr.
i ^' ^d lr Vn Pl°ny & krge number of men ? Yes, from 200 to 300 a week. M- Daley"
10357. Mr. McEiUop.] Generally, you have been in the habit of employing a large number of men during 99'^^Si
the time you have beeu stevedoring ? Yes. & 22 Dec, 1891.
16358. You have lived in Lower George-street for a considerable length of time have you not ? Yes ;
Ji'arTe been there ?H my lifetime— I do not think I have been more than a couple of miles away.
lbSoJ. In your opinion has the number of Chinese gambling-dens iucreased during the years you have
been in the locality ? Yes, it has considerably.
16360. You have every week paid large sums of money away as wages have you not? Yes. I have paid
as much as £7 to one man in a week.
ip!™ T>nd in tihe aSgreSate y°u have paid a few hundreds away in the week ? Last week I paid £400.
16362. Do you know from personal observation that many of these men, who work hard all the week,
and probably have earned a liberal wage, have spent the whole of their earnings in the gambling-dens run
by Chinamen, and that they have then come to you for a small loan ? Yes.
16363. I would like you to inform the Commission of the number of instances that have come under your
personal observation ? I cannot enumerate the number, because it was a weekly occurrence at one time,
and since this Commission started it has eased ofi a bit. But it used to be very prevalent. They would
come back to me, and say, " Lend us £1 to take home to the old woman, to get something to eat for to-
morrow." 1 would say, " Why, how is this ; it is only three or four hours ago since you got £4 or £5 ?"
Some of these men make good money, at Is. 6d. an hour. Their answer generally would be, " Oh, I
have been up at the chows, and I am cleared out," and I would reply to them, "You must be a fool."
16364. You have been applied to in that way times out of number? It has occurred a great number of
times. I was constantly preaching to them about it. But it was no use. One or two of them would
occasionally get a big lift at gambling. I have known one man to get £30 or £40 from the Chinamen.
16365. They have won it at play ? Yes ; and that induces them to try their luck again.
16366. Do they frequently win like that? No; very seldom.
16367. It is only a kind of a draw ? Yes ; I should judge so. I only went into one of these places on
one occasion. I was very busy. It was before the strike, and I was told that I could get some men if I
went into one of Long's buildings on the right hand-side of George-street going up. I found the place full.
16368. How long have you been employing labour as a stevedore ? I have been all my life employing
labour, and as a stevedore I should say about seven or eight years.
16369. And this gambling practice has been carried on ■ ? More or less all the time.
16370. Has it been increasing in your opinion lately ? The men do not come to me for money now.
16371. Did they do so up to a few months ago ? It has not occurred since the strike. In fact at last I
would not lend them any money, because I thought it was a sin for them to be going there.
16372. .Are you of opinion that the large amount of gambling that has been practised at that end of the
city could have been prevented by the police if a proper system of supervision had been adopted ? I think so.
16373. There would have been nothing to prevent them ? Well, I cannot say what they might have been
able to do, but I think if the police had made more raids they would not have been able to carry on so
openly ; at least I think they would not have done so. At the same time I must say that the police have
difficult job there. Eor instance, 1 could not have gone into the place I did if I had not been taken by a
man who knew the place. It is very difficult to enter these places to discover what is going on.
Mr. S. Sloan called and examined : —
16374. President.] What are you? I am a working gardener. Mr. S. Sloan.
16375. Mr. Abigail.] You are secretary to the Gardeners' Union, I believe ? Yes. r«a>-N
16376. And therefore you are in possession of a considerable amount of information with reference to 22 Dec, 1891.
the employment of Chinese for gardening purposes in Sydney ? Yes.
16377. Well, the Commissioners would like you to supply, in your own way, whatever information you
have, and which may be useful to us in dealing with this question of the employment of the Chinese ?
Concerning the employment of Chinese in nurseries a number of things were brought before me, which
were considered fully at the meetings of the Union, and we got the fullest information from those who
were employed on the nurseries.
16378. What did that information consist of ;— can you give us the total number of Chinese employed,
and who employ them ? Messrs. Pearce employ eighteen altogether — eight at Eandwick, and ten at
Gosford.
16379. All Chinamen ? Yes ; those I have mentioned are all Chinamen. He has Europeans as well. Mr.
Searl employs thirteen— that is, eight at Botany, and five between the Petersham and Ashfield nurseries.
16380. Up to what date was Mr. Searl employing that number of Chinamen ? Up to about a month
ago.
16381. ire they still employed in Searl's nursery, do you know ? I cannot speak for the present moment ;
but I know up' to a month ago they were. Mr. Edwin Pearce, who keeps an orchard at Seven Hills, has
fifteen Chinamen there. .
16382. Can you rely upon your informants in these cases ? Yes ; I could give you the names ol members
of the Union who have given the information.
16383. Are there any other cases ? Yes, but they are smaller ones;
16384. Those are the principal ones that you have investigated? Yes.
16385. Do you know anything about the wages paid to the Chinese ? I do not know the wages exactly,
but T knowit is small ; they work such long hours. 16386.
446 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. 16386. Do you think the employment of Chinese in this way injures or interferes with the employment
S. Sloan. 0f Europeans ? Certainly.
f "-^~~v 16387. Supposing it has been stated here that the Chinese working in these gardens receive remuneration
22 Dec, 1891. eqUaj t0 what the Europeans receive, what would you say to that ? I do not believe it is true, because
our informants had to leave Searl's and Pearce's through the employment of Chinese — particularly the
latter.
16388. Mr. Hawthorne] What did your informant say he had to leave for? Mr. Pearce told him he
could get Chinese at a cheaper rate of wage ; and this man I speak of is a professional gardener.
16389. Would these men — your informants — be prepared to come before this Commission and make the
same statements here ? Tes ; this man would come, if you could get him, but he is away in the country
now. He had to go because he could not get employment in Sydney.
16390. Tou are quite positive as to the number of men employed in Searl's and Pearce's gardens ? Tes.
16391. Have you taken the trouble, since a month ago, to ascertain whether they have dismissed any of
their Chinese workmen or not ? I took the trouble last night to see our vice-president, who gave us some
information about Pearce's, and also about Searl's, and he is quite prepared to proye that the Chinese
are there yet, or the great majority of them.
16392. That the numbers you have stated here are still in the employ of those firms ? Yes. _
16393. Then if either of these men have stated here that a very much smaller number of Chinese are in
their employ than what you have given us, are we to take it that their statements are untrue ? They are
incorrect, certainly. We can supply the Commission with information as to the numbers by several 'men
of our Uni m.
16394. Are any members of your Union working for either of these firms ? No.
16395. Do your rules prevent any of your Union men working in the same garden with Chinese work-
men ? No ; the rules do not prevent them.
16396. Then how is it that none of your Union are working for these particular firms ? They are
working in private places — some of them go on the job from one place to another.
16397. Mr. Abigail.] Where the men of your Union are now employed there are no Chinese kept ? No.
16398. Mr. McKillop.] Mr. Pearce has the largest interest in that class of gardening, has he not ? Yes.
16399. And yet he has complied with your request to discharge the Chinese labour ? Yes. Mr. Searle
refused to comply.
16400. And you mean to say that they employ them in the orchard too ? Yes.
16401. To any considerable extent? Mr. Pearce, at Seven Hills, employs fifteen.
16402. Has he anything to do with Pearce the florists ? No. He has nothing to do with Pearce, of King-
street. He is principally in the fruit-growing line in Seven Hills.
16403. Is he the largest employer of Chinese labour among the gardeners ? No ; Mr. Pearce the florist
is the largest ; he employs eighteen.
16404. The Chinese go in for the vegetable line principally ? Yes ; they have outdone us in that line,
because of the hours they work. They work from day-light till dark, between sixteen and eighteen hours
a day, and a half day on Sunday.
16405. Do they usually work on a Sunday ? Oh ! yes ; it is a customary thing.
16406. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you call watering the plants working on Sunday ? Yes.
16407. Mr. McKillop.] Do not the Europeans water their plants on a Sunday ? No, except in the hot-
houses.
16408. Mr. Hawthorne.] Do you think now, that it is not quite as sinful in the eyes of man or God
watering inside a glass-house as outside in the open ? Well there might be from a religious point of
view.
16409. Mr. McKillop.] Your statement is that the Chinese water their gardens up to mid-day on Sunday ?
Yes. ^
16410. And you say the Europeans do it in the hot-houses ? Not up to midday in the hot-houses. In
the evening they have a half hour in the hot-houses.
16411. It does not matter whether it is half an hour or two hours — the principle is the same, do you not
see that ? No, I cannot see that, because in one case it is doing it for a living, and in the other it is not.
What we complain of is the hours they work on week days, and the cheap way they live, all of which
enables them to compete unfairly with the Europeans at the same calling.
16412. Do you know the wages that are paid to the Chinese as a rule? No ; it is very hard to find out.
16413. You have only the statement of the man himself, or the employer ? Yes.
16414. Can you say if the European vegetable-gardens are on the increase or decrease in Sydney ? I
should say they are on decrease, except where private gentlemen may have their own vegetable gardens.
There are very few market-gardens about now ; I think there are only three at Botany at the present
time.
1641 5. I suppose a large number of the members of your Union are market-gardeners ? Yes, there are
several, and they had to give it best.
16416. You are of opinion that market-gardening is on the decrease among the Europeans ?. Yes.
16417. Is it owing to the keen competition they meet with ? Yes ; by the Chinese.
16418. Have you ever done any market-gardening yourself ? No.
16419. Have you any experience in market-gardening at all ? No; except in private gentlemen's gardens.
16420. Do you know whether the Chinese force their vegetables ? Yes, they do that, I know.
16421. Do you know from your own personal knowledge whether they use human manure or urine for
their vegetables ? At one place I did see them use it. It was at Bondi, at a Chinese garden near the
Park there. They earthed the vegetables up, and put it in the drills, at the roots. They kept the stuff
in casks.
16422. Did you see them sprinkle it over the vegetables ? No. I have heard that that is done, but I
cannot say of my own personal experience.
16423. Do you know whether European gardeners are in the habit of putting human manure or urine at
the roots of their vegetables? I cannot say. I would not like to use it unless I buried it in the ground.
1 6424. Is it merely a matter of sentiment, or is horse-dung as nasty as human manure ? I would work
the manure into the ground, and use plenty of water in any case.
16425. To decompose it ? Yes.
16426.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 447
16426. Mr Haiothorne.] Is your knowledge of the use of human manure by the Chinese confined to what Mr.
you saw at iiondi ? Yes ; that was some years ago. I was working near there, and used to go down to S- sloan'
them tor vegetables. I used to see them working in the garden ^— ^— ^
16427. Are they competing in the floral line ? Yes. 22 Dec, 1891.
the idea^oT-f hin6Se ^ ^ S°°d Imrserymen' as a rule> are taeJ ? ~®° ; they are not. They want to get
iSS«MArei l0U °£ °P'Tn ^ when they do understand the industry they will compete with the
S!rt laboufers as t^ey do now in market-gardening? Yes. Thev will work the Europeans out,
^™e'he employe™ will be mclmed to get them for cheapness. "
tw I ITa T has two places-one at Ashfield, and the other at Petersham —supposing he has said
contradict it ^ 0ne P aCeS' W°uM i<; be true? No- Z can supply evidence that will
16431. Positive proof ? Yes.
16432. You said a little while ago that the Europeans could not compete with the Chinese labourers,
because ot the number of hours they work, and the cheapness of their living ;— does it take so much
HkTa Chinese a Ur°pean than a Cllillese? They live very much cheaper. A European could not live
16433. "Would you be surprised to learn that some of these men have been living on poultry ? I think
they live mostly on nee. They do not live according to European ways at all.
Ib4d4. Are you sure they do not live as richly ? Yes : I am quite sure of that. It does not take the same
amount ot money to keep a Chinese as it does to keep a European.
16435. Mr. Quong Tart} How much does it cost a European for food per week ? Between 10s. and £1
per week.
16436. Mr. Abigail.'] I gather from what you said a short time ago that you do not know of your own
knowledge how many Chinese Mr. Searl employs ? No. I only know from information I have received
from members of the Union.
16437. Mr. McKillop.] "Will you be good enough to forward to the Secretary of the Commission the
exact number of Chinese employed by the gentlemen referred to ? I will give the names of those who
can give you the information.
16438. lou said just now that it would cost something like 15s. or £1 per week to keep a European in
food ; now, supposing they went in for boarding themselves on a garden, the same way as the Chinese
do, what would it cost them that way per man ? About 8s. a week.
16439. What are the usual wages paid to Europeans working on the various gardens ? Some single men
get from 25s. to 30s. a week. It is more often £1 a week and found. The general rate for married men
is £2 5s. a week.
16440. Do experienced gardeners get a higher rate ? Some get £2 10s. ; that is the highest.
16441. Mr. Abigail.] Do you know of any cases were Europeans have formed themselves into syndicates
to work market-gardens ? No.
16442. Have you heard of Chinamen doing that ? No.
16143. Have you ever heard of (say) seven or eight of them taking a garden at Botany, 9 acres of land,
and after paying all expenses, each one making at the rate of £60 or £70 profit out of it ? No.
16444. Do you think it possible for Europeans to work land on the sam<? principle, and make similar
profit out of it ? That I cannot say. They might.
16415. Can you tell us why the Europeans do. not go more extensively into market-gardening? It is
because of the keen competition of the Chinese. They sell cheaper.
16416. Do you know Mr. Alderman Smith, of Botany, a market-gardener? No.
16447. Would you be surprised to learn that he has worked his garden in competition with the Chinese
gardeners there, and has made it profitable ? Yes, I would be surprised.
16118. Von do not think it possible for Europeans to work against Chinamen and make any profit ? No ;
I do not think they would make much.
16449. Mr. McKillop.] I would like to hear from you before you leave whether you have any particular
statement to make as to the special disadvantages you may consider the men of your calling labour under
in competition with the Chinese, because now is the time to make it, as the Commission will shortly be "
closing its labours ? No ; I have not any statement to make, except the general one, that we are suffering
a great deal from competition with the Chinese. There is no getting away from that. We know that in
many cases Europeans have been thrown out of employment by the Chinese being employed.
16450. Mr. Abigail.] Then you think if the Chinese were sent away out of the Colony, and were thus
prevented from competing at your trade, the European market-gardeners would get into work again ?
Yes.
16451. Would not the result of that be to greatly increase the price of vegetables they would produce ?
I do not think so.
16452. Mr. McKillop.] Do you think the competition would be as keen amongst the European sellers ?
Yes ; one will keep the other down.
16453. Mr. Quong Tart] How many Europeans are employed in nurseries altogether to your knowledge ?
I cannot give you the exact number. We have on the books of the Association about seventy names, but
they would not all be employed in the nurseries.
16454. How many hours per day do they work? Eight hours. Some of them work longer. I think ten
hours is the average for a working day.
16455. Is it hard work in the garden ? No ; not unless the ground is new.
16456. When once the ground is in good working order it is not difficult ? No. The working is the
principal work then.
16457. If your plants want watering on a Sunday you have to give them water, or they would be killed,
would they not ?' I think if you give them a good watering on Saturday they will last then till Monday
morning. ,
16458. Supposing the plant was a delicate one ? You would not plant them in the summer, which is the
dry season. You would plant them in the proper season.
16459. It has been stated here that European gardens have increased lately, but you say it is the other
way about ? I have never heard of it, and I do not think it is likely either.
16460.
448 CHINESE GAMBtTXCt COMMISSION' — MmTES OF EA'IDENCE.
Mr. 16460. Do you know of any Chinese having left their gardens this year because they could not make them
S. Sloan. pay p i na've not healvl of it.
16461. Do you think there is any truth in a statement that Europeans have bought Chinese market-
gardeners out ? I cannot say.
16462. If the Chinese work the same hours as the Europeans and live in the same way, you would have nd
objection to them ; — is that the case ? Tes. If they work and live according to what we do, then we shall
have no objection to them, and will fairly compete with them.
[The witness withdrew.]
22 Dec, 1891.
Mr. John Keane called and examined : —
Mr. 16463. President.'] You are engaged in stevedoring ? Yes.
J. Kcanc. 16464. And have been, together with your company, so engaged for many years ? Yes.
' — ~-K-^~\ 16465. You employ a large number of men? We do.
22 Dec, 1891. 1C166. What wages do these men usually receive ;— they work by piece-work largely, do they not?_ Working
at the coal it is sometimes piece-work and sometimes by the hour. At general cargo, cither loading or dis-
charging ships, it is all by the hour, and they earn on an average from 30s. to 2 guineas a week. That is
about the general average. Some of the coal men earn more. I am taking it right through, the good
with the bad. Some of the men earn more, and some do not earn that much.
16467. Has it ever come to your knowledge that many of these men have visited the Chinese gambling-
dens and lost all their earnings ? Yes.
16468. Have they ever come to you immediately afterwards, asking for loans of money to get food for
their homes ? Yes ; they have.
16469. Did they tell you at the time what had become of their money ? On some occasions they did, and
on others they did not, but their wives have on many occasions drawn attention to the fact.
16470. Do you think that the existence of these Chinese gambling-places in Lower George-street has been
a great evil to these men, and a source of great hardship to their wives and families ? I do not believe in
that view at all. If the men did not go there I do not think the Chinese would ask them to. I know one
case of a man who was a winch-driver on board the " Duckcnfield," and had some few hundred pounds in
the bank. Well he never rested content unless he was in these places. He won occasionally, and then
lost, till at length he lost all his money.
16471. Then do you not think the fact of these Chinese gambling-dens existing in the city is a standing
danger to these men ? It is a danger, no doubt. The temptation is there.
16472. Would you like to see it suppressed ? Yes ; and I would assist to suppress it as far as lies in my
power.
16473. Mr. McKillop.] You were born in that district, were you not ? I was.
16174. Have you noticed whether the gambling-dens have been on the increase or the decrease during the
last five years in that quarter ? I think it has been on the increase since those houses were built between
Queen's-place and Felton and Nocks. These places are all but one gambling-houses. I have seen men
rushing there at meal-hours and at other times to buy tickets.
16475. That is, pak-ah-pu lottery-tickets ? Yes.
16476. The question I asked was this : whether, during the last five years, the gambling-dens have been
on the increase down there ? And my answer is, that since these houses have been built there they have
increased to that extent.
16477. These have been added to those that were in existence there before ? Yes. It is more than five
years since they were built.
16178. Is it jiot a fact — I think you answered a questnn of the kind from Mr. Abigail, but I wish to
repeat it— that you have known men to spend the whole of their week's earnings in these dm*, and
sometimes very large amounts ? It is a fact. I remember that on one occasion I paid a man £6 Is. (id.
between 12 o'clock and 2 — these are the hours in which I pay — and I left my Company's office to go to my
homo. I had not got more than 200 yards on my way, I think, when that man came up to mo to borrow
£3. He had lost all his money. This was less than one hour and a half from the time I paid him.
' 16479. Did he tell you where he lost his money ? Not then. His excuse for borrowing then was that
he had a good chance to buy a watch and chain cheap.
16480. From whom did you learn the truth ? From his wife and brother. He also borrowed £2 from
his brother, and lost it in the fan-tan shop.
16481. Then you think fan-tan is as great an evil as pak-ah-pu ? From what I can learn it is as bad, and
worse, for a new chum, who can be more easily imposed upon. From what I can learn, it is carried on to
a large extent at present.
16482. Do you think if the police exercised greater precautions in this matter that the evil might be
checked to a very low extent, or perhaps altogether ? No ; I cannot agree with that altogether. I do
not think the police could keep the men away from those places. For instance, as I have noticed, when
they see a policeman coming up or down, passing one of these shops, they will walk away, but as soon as
his back is turned they get " the office" and they are back again. In fact I have seen the police put
them out of the shops, but it is no good. I think the present law ought to be repealed and a new Act
introduced to meet the case. The penalty should be more severe, I think, and I would give the police
power to prosecute if the house was known to be a gambling-house, without all the trouble that they are
put to at present.
16483. Is it a fact within your knowledge that a large amount of immorality is carried on between the
Chinese and European women and girls down there ? There is a certain amount of immorality carried on,
but the women are prostitutes. I do not remember having heard of any Chinaman having been had up for
any offences on women, such as the Mount Eennie outrage.
16484. Mr. Abigail.'] Have you heard of the Chinese entrapping young girls for the purpose of seducing
them? No.
16485. Mr. McKillop.] If a clergyman has stated that there have been serious cases of immorality of the
kind I have indicated in the Chinese quarters down there, would that be correct? Well, I would not
contradict a clergyman. What I say is that I have never heard of any serious cases like the Mount
Eennie affair. I have never been inside the places.
16486. You have never made strict inquiry ? No, 16487,
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 449
}rl«Q_8A S11 the °tller tand' tte clergymen may do so on tteir visits to these places ? Tes. Mr.
£ - u i \ y°U are firmly of °Piuion tllat to suPpress the Chinese gambling evil a more stringent law J- Keane-
should be brought into operation ? Tes; or it the Unions would make a rule the same as they did when oo'T^T^,
the coal-lumpers stopped their wives from dealing with the Chinese— if they were to introduce a rule to 22Ueo•' 1891>
ftne heavily those who went to the gambling-dens, or to expel them from the Union, that would do a great
deal of good.
[The witness withdrew.]
The Mother Superior (Good Samaritan Convent) called and examined :—
^?' PJefdenL) T°u are the Motter Superior of the Good Samaritan Convent? Tes. The Mother
\ef™ ™ l0U — m y°Ur Care a nUmber of women who have S°ne astraJ in life ? Tes. Superior, &c.
16492. lhe Commission want to obtain from you any information you can give with regard to any such ,-^^~s
women who have gone astray m connection with the Chinese. Can you afford us any information on that 22 Deo., 1891
point ? I really cannot.
16493. Tou do not know whether any of the women under your care, in your reformatory, have ever
lived with Chinamen m this city ? No ; we never ask any questions regarding their former lives. If
they speak of it we generally stop them. We only require that they shall behave themselves whilst
they are there.
16494. Then you are not in a position to say anything with regard to the past lives of the inmates of
your institution ? No.
10495. Have you ever experienced any betrayal of the interests of your institution by reason of women
going out of it, and enticing others to follow them, with a view of leading vicious lives either with the
Chinese or anyone else ? Some have come in and enticed others away at different times.
16496. Have you known the inmates of your institution to be enticed away by people from outside — by
persons who procure women for immoral" purposes ? I do not think so ; the only way has been for others
to obtain admission and induce some of those already in the institution to leave, perhaps in a few weeks'
time.
16497. Have there been many such cases ? No.
16498. How many inmates of your institution are there ? Sixty at present.
16499. Have you got any information on the main point stated by me with regard to the Chinese ?
Sometimes when the women have got angry with each other I have heard them reproach one another
about the Chinese ; but we always stop it if we can.
16500. Do you make any visits outside among the immoral women, with a view to reclaiming them ? No ;
not as a rule. They come themselves if they come at all.
16501. Are all the inmates of your institution fallen women ? Tes ; but in a good many instances it is
more from drink than anything else.
16502. With regard to the inducements that are held out by the women who come into your institution
to entice others to follow them, do you know what these inducements are ? No. Of course they do all
that very secretly.
16503. Do you know whether any of the inmates of your institution are addicted to opium-smoking ?
Not to my knowledge.
16504. Tou have not experienced any inconvenience in the management of the institution by reason of a
desire on the part of the women to get away, in order that they may indulge in opium-smoking ? No ; I
have never heard it mentioned. They would like tobacco if they could get it ; but we do not allow it.
16505. What work do they do in your establishment ? Laundrywork and needlework of all kinds.
16506. Where is your establishment situated ? Pitt-street south.
16507. Do you know anything about the institution of Cook's Kiver ? Tes ; that belongs to us.
16508. Tou have a number of women there ? Tes, over fifty.
16509. Do they also do laundry- work ? Tes ; they have a steam-laundry.
16510. Is it within your knowledge that women are enticed away from these also? I have not heard of it.
16511. Can you tell me what enticements are held out to the women who leave your establishment ? I
cannot. It is between themselves, and they take good care not to let us know what it is.
16512. When they come to your establishment do they agree to stop for a certain time ? Tes ; they must
stay two years. And if they behave themselves during that time they have a situation procured for them
and an outfit given them.
16513. Do they stay as a rule ? A good many of them do.
16514. Do you lock them up at night — that is, are they practically in prison? We lock the dormitory
at night.
16515. Have they any means of escape in the day-time ? If the doors are open they may slip out.
16516. Do they do so ? Sometimes ; that is the way they escape. Of course if they do not wish to remain
and say so we give them their clothes and let them go.
16517. Is your institution successful in reclaming many of these women ? It is.
16518. How many for instance ; — you have sixty there now you say— I will take forty of them — have
forty of them been there twelve months ? Some of them have been there many years.
16519. That practically is a proof of success? Tes ; some of them remain for life.
16520. Do you find people collecting outside your establishment at night with a view of enticing the
women away ? No.
16521. Tou have never found any inconvenience of that kind ? In years gone by there was once or twice.
16522. But you have now nothing to complain of with regard to the conduct of the public outside at
all? No. ,. ii. x,
16523. Tou have no experience of what are called_ procuresses attending with a view to getting the women
to go away ? No ; they never have any chance of seeing them.
16524. It has been alleged as to some institutions of the kind that a certain class of women go to these
places in order to induce the girls to go away and from the control of the management and back to their
careers of vice ; — but you have never experienced anything of that kind ? No.
16525. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Do you know of a woman named ■? Tes.
16526. What kind of a woman have you found her ordinarily ? In some ways very good. But she was
very fond of drink.
J 272—3 L 16527.
22 Dec, 1891.
450 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
The Mother 1G527. Have you found her coming to your institution for a few weeks, and then going off to some other
Superior, &c. institution, and enticing young girls to go away with her, and then led them astray ? -No ; the others
' would be as bad as herself. JSlie was in our house before, and we took her in again to give her another
trial. She remained for twelve months, and then she aud another girl went out one morning. I can
scarcely call her a girl ; she was 30 years of age.
1052s. Do you find, as a rule, that these women go about from oue of these homes to another ? Some of
them do.
1G529. Have you heard of Murdoch's Home at Paddington ? Yes ; I have heard of the place. They
seem to be very good people. But they allow the women to go out.
16530. Have you heard also that they supply them with whatever drink they require ? No ; but I have
heard that they could do things unknown to the persons conducting it.
10531. Do you make it a rule in your establishment that the inmates shall attend the religious services
held there ? Yes ; but as regards those of other denominations it is simply because if they did not they
might get into mischief while the others were occupied. If they object to attend the service, we say
there is a Protestant refuge next door, and they can go in there if they wish. This had
not been ia the institution for years until lately, when she came and begged for another trial. As I have
said she remained six months, and then went out, taking another woman with her, and I gave the Sisters
strict instructions that she was never to be admitted again.
16532. Do you find among the women who seek admission to your institution any who are addicted to
opium-smoking? I never knew but one case. Sho was a peculiar looking person, aud one of the
attendants said to me that she thought she smoked opium outside. She was almost stupid.
[The witness withdrew.]
WEDNESDAY, 23 DECEMBER, 1891.
flrmttt:—
The Mayor of Sydney (Me. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pkesident,
QUONG TAUT, Esq, | JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq,
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq.
Maud called and examined: —
Maud 16533. President.'] What is your name ? Maud .
t — ~A-^— \ 16534. Where do you live ? In street, Sydney.
23 Dec, 1391. 16535. Are you married? No ; I am not married.
16536. Are you living with any man ? . Yes.
16537. Is he a European or a Chinese ? He is a Chinese.
16538. How long have you been living with him ? I have been living with him four years altogether.
16539. Have you any children ? I have one English child.
16540. That child, of course, is illegitimate ? Yes.
16511. I suppose that when you were seduced marriage was promised you? I decline to answer that
question.
16542. Well, if you will not answer the questions that the Commission put to you we shall have to con-
tinue the legal proceedings against you, and that we shall be sorry to do. I would not at all wish to
press any question unnecessarily, but if you will allow me to recommend you, I would advise you to
answer that question ? No ; I will not answer it.
16543. What is your reason for declining to answer it ? I do not see what reason you have for asking
me such a question.
16544. Well, that is a matter for the Commission. If you positively decline to answer the question I
shall have to ask you to withdraw. [The witness withdrew accordingly, and, after some minutes' con-
sideration, signified her willingness to answer the question, and was readmitted..]
16545. The question that I put to you was this : "Were you not seduced under promise of marriage"? Yes.
16546. And after the child was born you were, I suppose, in a measure deserted, and left to fight the
battle of life by yourself ? Yes.
16547. And was it then that you became connected with the Chinese ? Yes.
16548. Did you go straight away to the Chinese then, or did you lead a public life ? I went straight to
the Chinese then.
16549. Mr. Abigail!] Where did that event happen — where did you meet with the Chinese first ? In
Goulburn.
16550. After the birth of the child ? Yes.
16551. And ever since that event you have been with them ? Yes.
16553. What age are you ? I am turned 23, and going on for 24.
16553. And how long have you been living with Chinese ? About four years.
16554. And how old is the child ? She is going on for 5 years of age.
16555. Have you ever received any support in any way from the father of the child? Never.
16556. Have you seen him since ? I have seen him twice since the child was born, but she was only
about 3 months old when I last saw her.
16557. And you never took any proceedings against him ? No.
16558. Have you been with the one Chinaman all the time ? Well, no ; not exactly with the one. I
have lived with two different Chinamen during the four years that I have referred to.
16559. What is the treatment of the man that you are now living with ? Very good ; he treats me very
well ; better than any Englishman would do.
16560. But, of course, your experience of Englishmen is confined to the man who ruined you and then
left you, is it not? Ho; I have had experience with other Englishmen.
16561. And their conduct does not compare favourably with the treatment you are now receiving from
the Chinamen with whom you are living ? No.
16562. You have a comfortable little home I know because I visited it with the Commission ? Yes.
16563. And you get all you require in the way of money ? Yes. 16564.
CHINESE dAMBLINft COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 451
S' S°eS ,the man with wbom y°u are livinS ever iH-treat you in any way ? No, never Maud
Ibobo. Docs he never strike you ? No. J ' /~^_, v
16566. Nor quarrel with you ? No. 23 Dec, 1891.
JSe hSu have pre% mudl your Gwn way do you not ? Tes ; wel1 he tries to Please me> and 1 tTy t0
16568. Do you smoke opium ? No.
16569. Did you never smoke opium ? No.
16570. Are you quite sure of that ? Tes. "
16571. Does your husband ? No.
lSSS' ?°/lkMW an7thing ?f *}* acti°n 0f °Piuin uP°n tllose ^o ™> it ? No, I do not.
}l-lt" 4 J qU, 1 SUre that y°U do not smoke °Pium Yourself ? Tes.
?S?J" ST y°U, ever leia llfe °f Prostitution in Sydney ? In Sydney, no.
16575. But you have m the country? Tes.
16576. Tour family live at Goulbnrn ? Tes.
16577. Tou have sisters have you not ? Tes.
16578. How many? 1 have four sisters.
16579. How are they all living ? They are all married.
16580. Are none of them living with Chinamen ? No
S £hey ar? ^K with Europeans ? Tes, they are married to Europeans.
16582. Comfortably married ? Tes.
16583. What is the name of the man you are living with ? Geo. Ah Poy
16584. "What business does he follow ? He is a storekeeper.
i^o5' Se itn°t connected wi* any gambling establishment ? Not that I know of.
16586. Has he anything to do with any vegetable gardens? No.
16587. He is simply a storekeeper ? He is in a store in George-street.
16588. What was your reason for refusing to attend as a witness before the Commission when you
received such frequent notice to do so ? Because every other Chinaman's woman was not called.
16589. But did you not know that a number had been called ? Tes, I knew that a number had been
called.
16590. A nd did not. you threaten that you would not attend ? Tes, I said that I would not attend without
being forced, and I did not.
165')L Tour reason then was that you desired every other Chinese kept woman to be called before the
Commission ? Tes.
16592. About how many of them are there ? Well there are a great number down at that end of the city.
16593. Do you know their names and addresses? Tes, I know of them, but I do not want to tell of
others.
16591. Tou say, at all events, that there are a great number of European women living with Chinamen
down at that end of the city ? Tes ; but not exactly living with them.
16595. I am coming to that ; — they associate with them ; — they go to their houses for immoral purposes?
Well, I do not know that they go there for immoral purposes, but I have seen them in their houses a
great deal.
16596. Toung women ? Tes, young women and old ones.
16597. Do you know whether any of them are married to Europeans ? Tes; some of them are.
16598. But you do not know for what purpose they visit the houses of Chinamen ? I do not know.
16599. Do you know whether they go there for the purpose of smoking opium ? Well, I have seen them
smoking opium there.
16600. Do not you think it is for immoral purposes that these women visit the Chinamen's places; — what
other reason could they have for going there ? Tes, I think it is for immoral purposes.
16601. Tou have not seen it, so cannot be sure, but that is the natural conclusion that one would arrive
at ? Tes.
16602. Tou do not know anything about the effects of opium upon those who use it, do you ? No.
16603. And you have never smoked opium yourself ? No.
16604. Mr. Hawthorne.'] It has reached the ears of the Commission that you stated that the reason why
you would not come to give evidence before them was that you expected to have a number of disgusting
questions asked of you ;— what females who have been before the Commission as witnesses told you that?
Mary Ann .
16605. Asa matter of fact she was not examined ? Well, she came to my place and told me that.
16606. Did Pauline state that a number of disgusting questions had been put to her? Well, it was
she who told the young women I allude to.
16607. Did she tell you what the questions were, or simply leave it to your imagination ? No ; she told
me what they were.
16608. I do not think that any member of the Commission put any question to a witness that he did not
think in the interests of decency could be put down in black and white. May I ask you to repeat what
she told you that these questions were ? She told me that they asked her who was the first man she
went with, whether it was in doors or out of doors, whether he was a black man or a white man, whether
when she went to bed the Chinamen made her wash herself or not, whether they insisted upon her
wearing clean linen, and so on. T
16609. That is quite untrue. Did you happen to be out of Sydney at all last week f JS o.
16610. President.^ Tou were apprehended in Sydney then ? les.
16611. When was that? This morning.
16612. Mr. HawtJiorne.~\ Who circulated the rumour that you had gone to Goulburn i lhat was an old
woman who was doing my work for me.
16613. Did she act as servant for you ? Well, she did my washing for me ; but she was so dirty that 1 had
to send her away.
16614. Is she living with a Chinaman ? Tes, I think so. ■ • 0 At
16615. Then you did not go away at all for the purpose of avoiding the Commission ? JNo.
16616. Did you go into seclusion ? Tes.
16617. Did y©u hear it said that you had gone away into the country ? Well, I heard it said.
1661S
452 CHINE8E GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Maud . 1G618. You received all the notices to attend as a witness before the Commission, did you not ? Yes.
'""-* * 16619. Did your husband stand in the way of your coming ? Well, he said that unless all the other
23 Dec, 1891. Chinamen's Women were called I ought not to come, but if they were called I might come.
16620. How many European women are there living among Chinamen in your district? 1 cannot say;
but there are a great many,
16621. Would there be fifty? Yes ; I suppose there would be about fifty.
16622. Do you think there would be a hundred? No ; I should not think there are so many— probably
about fifty. I should not think that there would be more.
16623. Are they living with Chinamen ? No, not continually.
16624. Do they keep houses to which Chinamen go ? Yes.
16625. Are the Chinamen who go to their houses market-gardeners, and so on ? Yes.
16626. Where did you first meet the Chinaman with whom you are living— in Sydney ? No, in G-oulburn.
16627. Are there many Chinamen in Goulburn ? No.
16628. You say that you have four sisters ? Yes.
16629. Are they all living respectably? Yes.
16630. None of them living with Chinamen ? No.
16631. Are you quite sure ? Yes. I had a sister who was once living with a Chinaman, but she is
married to a European now.
16632. Is he in Sydney or in the country ? In the country at present.
16633. Since you took up with the man with whom you are living at present have you, so far as he is con-
cerned, lived a proper life ? Yes.
16633^. You have not in any way allowed any freedom to be made with you by other Chinamen? No
other Chinaman ever enters our house. My husband would not allow it.
16634. And then the same remark applies to Europeans ; you do not cohabit in any way with Europeans ?
No.
16635. You have not done so since you lived with your present husband ? No.
16636. So that anything stated to the contrary would be untrue ? Yes.
16637. I may as well tell you that statements have reached us about your mode of living, and I am sure
that the Commission would like them either proved or disproved. You stated previously that you never
smoked opium. Eecalling the fact that you are on oath, will you think the matter over, and tell us
whether or not you ever have smoked opium ? No ; I have not.
16638. Never in your life ? No.
16639. And your husband is not an opium-smoker ? No.
16640. Is your husband employed by some of the Chinese merchants ? Yes ; I think he has a share in
the business.
16641. What firm is he in ? I do not know the name of the firm, but it is 199, George-street.
16642. What kind of business do they carry on? They have a store there.
16643. Is it a general store ? Yes.
16644. Are you quite sure that they have nothing to do with gambling ? I believe not ; but, as a matter
of fact I have never been in the place.
16645. Where is the English child that you had ? My mother has it. She has had it off and on ever
since its birth.
16646. Do you send anything to your mother for the support of the child ? My husband allows me 10s.
a week for it.
16647. Are your parents in a respectable position ? Yes.
16648. And' are they aware that you are living with a Chinaman in Sydney ? No ; they think I am
living with the child's father. I never told them that he had deserted me.
16649. Was the child's father in a respectable position ? Yes ; he was a brickmaker. He was a bit fast,
however.
16650. Does he ever come near you ? No ; I have never seen him since some time before the birth of
the child.
16651. Then, I suppose the great aversion you had to coming before the Commission arose from the fear
that your parents might get an idea where you were living ? Yes.
16652. It was not that you were afraid of disgusting questions being asked? Well, of course, I did not
know what the questions would be.
16653. Mr. McKillop.] Are there not a number of opium-smoking dens in your part of the city ? Yes.
16654. Does not Paulina smoke a great deal? Well, I never saw her smoking.
16655. Does she not come to your house ? Yes.
16656. You are positive that none of your sisters at the present time are living with Chinamen ? No.
16657. Is there not a possibility of the Chinaman with whom you are living now marrying you ? Well,
he would marry me if I wished it.
16658. Have you any objection to being married to him ? No ; I have no objection.
16659. What has became of the woman who was living in your house ? Well, I sent her away because
she was too dirty to have in the house.
16360. Is it not a fact that she advised you not to attend the Commission? No ; she never advised me on
the matter at all.
16661. When did you get rid of her ? Well, I sent her away on Eriday, but she left some of her things
there.
16662. After you had been seduced how did you come to go with the Chinamen? Well, I went to the wife
of a Chinaman who was living in Goulburn, and a Chinaman who was stopping there offered to keep me
if I liked, but as I did not like to live with him in Goulburn he took me up the country.
16663. Mr. Quong Tart.'] In the course of your four years life amongst the Chinese have you ever heard
of any Chinaman attempting to seduce young women by making them presents of jewellery and so on ? No.
16664. Is it true that Chinamen decoy women ? No ; it is absolutely untrue I am sure. They say too
that the Chinamen induce girls to smoke opium, but that is untrue also. Chinamen are strongly opposed
to their women smoking opium. My husband is strongly against it.
16665. What is the effect of smoking opium ? Well, they become unconscious.
16666. Mr. Hawthorne.] Is it a fact that when they are under the influence of opium they would not
be
CHINESE GAMBLING- COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 453
iir anything that was done to them ? No, I do not think it. is a fact. I have seen a great Maud
BTT the c^ntry districts smoking opium ; but I never saw anything of that kind.
lfififiR £ %T* H<) U ? .the P- 0PCT thlDg t0 smoke °Pium through » Pipe ? Yes. 23 De0- 1891
^bbtos. .But it they swallowed the opium raw, through not being able to make a pipe, it would drug them?
thi'w™8™ ?w lf f JTg woraan.f ho d^ not understand how to make a pipe took the opium in
iS TT t0 lt0p *he/ravmS >* would make her unconscious ? Yes.
forV;n^£2aeTeriea rd.°f peases in which old women who have been living with the Chinese
who kS 1 %l: h™e™d™&i young women to go to live with them ? Yes. I have seen women
irltST with Chinamen inducing girls to go and live with them.
Sn^?1%^a^rbSr^Ih0 haTO b6en deC°yedin thatWay? ^'^have not been
^US^WSSlS.WIlom you sayyou once H-dt-at^ He ^ed me -7
!S lL5r\f C"EW°i'-] H°W dM the sister 3™ have referred to get in touch with the Chinese ? Well,
sne came with. me.
IS' ?id/01i aB^ h,er ? Wel1' sne ran awa7 fpom home with me.
£ a 3 "a a t. -, , 7?U lnduced her to go ? She came to Sydney with me when I was about to
be conimed with my child, and when I returned to Goulburn she said that she would not leave me ; she
would come with me.
16676. Mr. Abigail.] Have you any objection now to the questions that the Commission has put to you ?
16677. You do not go away feeling that you have been subjected to improper questions ? No.
THURSDAY, 24 DECEMBER, 1891.
fflxzstnt:—
The Mayor of Sydney (.Mr. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
EEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbesident.
EAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq, | QUONG TAET, Esq,
JOHN STUAET HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Mr. "William "Wong Goldtown recalled and further examined : —
16678. Mr. Abigail] We have called upon you to give a little additional evidence upon a matter affecting Mr. w_ w_
Mr. Quong Tart. It has come to our knowledge that you are instituting legal proceedings in reference Goldtown.'
to the game of pak-ah-pu ; — you are taking action against some bank for not paying money over, I / — -<- — \
believe? Yes, I am. " 4 Dec, 1891
16679. Well, I may say that it is at Mr. Quong Tart's special request that we have recalled you on this
occasion. Mr. Quong Tart wishes the Commission to ask you if in the course of those proceedings you
have made any statement to the solicitor who is acting on your behalf, or to any other person, to the
effect that his relatives are connected with any of the gambling establishments in Sydney, or anywhere
else ? No ; I never said anything to that effect to anybody.
16680. You never said to anybody that Mr. Quong Tart or his relatives are connected with gambling ?
No ; I never said anything of the kind.
16681. And you never repeated a statement to anybody else to that effect ? No.
16682. Mr. McXillop.] Do you know whether Mr. Quong Tart or any of his relatives are connected with
any Chinese gambling institution ? I do not know that either he or any of his relatives are.
16683. What do you mean by " relatives "? Eelatives, according to my meaning, are his kinsmen.
16684. Do you mean by relatives persons coming from the same village, or from the same part of the
country ? No ; I mean those belonging to the same family, whether near or distant members of it.
16685. The relationship to which you refer is entirely of a family character ? Yes.
16686. Then, if it has been said that either Mr. Quong Tart or his relatives are connected with gambling
it is mere idle rumour ? Well, I do not know who is Mr. Quong Tart's relative. Of course I know that
his surname or family name is Moy, and I know that Moy Ping's family name is Moy, but I do not know
whether he is any relation to Mr. Quong Tart.
16U87. Is there any more reason to suppose that he is than that one person of the name of Smith is a relative
of any other person who happens to be called Smith? There was probably a relationship originally,
although it may have been a hundred years ago.
16688. Have you heard this matter talked about amongst the Chinese ? No.
16689. All that you can say to give the slightest colour to the charge that Mr. Quong Tart's relatives
are connected with gambling is that Moy Ping's surname happens to be the same as his? Yes; that is all.
16690. Mr. Abigail.] As a matter of fact, you do not know of your own knowledge of any person con-
nected by blood with Mr. Quong Tart, who is connected with gambling ? No ; I do not.
16691. Mr. McXillop.] Is there not a great deal of rumour going about the effect of which is to dis-
parage Mr. Quong Tart's character, by associating his name with participation in some of the gambling-
dens of the city? There is a rumour of the kind going about. Some people charge Mr. Quong Tart,
and say he is interested in gambling, and so on.
16692. Who are they who make these charges ? It is only a general rumour.
16693. Are you of opinion that it is because Mr. Quong Tart occupies a seat on this Commission, and
because he is known to be so much averse to opium and the pernicious system of Chinese gambling, that
this charge has been got up against him by interested individuals ? That is my impression. It is the
same in my own case — charges have been made against me too.
16694. And I believe you are about taking action with regard to a certain lottery business ? Yes.
16695. You will probably be looked upon as one of the worst in the world on that account ? It may be.
16696. Mr. Quong Tart.] You know Eobert Wong Lee Kum ? Yes.
16697. You are Wong, too, are you not ? Yes.
16698.
454
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EYIDENCE.
Mr. W. W
Goldtown.
24 Dec. 1891
16698. Are you in any way related ? No ; we do not even come from the same district. I may explain
to the Commission. In China we generally put the surname in front of the Christian name. Wong is
my surname, and Goldtown is my individual name, so that William Goldtown Wong would be the
proper way according to the English mode.
16699. Now, I want you to pay particular attention to this : It has been stated that you have said that I
Bhared with a number of gambling-houses, the owners of which were my cousins or relations ; — did you
ever say that to anybody ? No ; I never said such a thing as that to anybody.
16700. Not to any European ? No.
16701. Mr. Abigail] Nor to any Chinaman ? No. Because I know ho is against gambling and opium-
smoking — I can see what he has been doing in that connection for myself.
16702. You are satisfied of his sincerity ? Tes.
1<)703. Mr. Quong Tart.] Supposing I bring a number of the leading merchants of Sydney, where I have
lived twenty years, to testify to my character, what do you think they would say on that point ? I think
everybody would say that you are not a gambler.
16704. Did you hear any remark in Goulburn-street about my being connected with gambling ? I heard
it not only in Goulburn-street, but generally. Some of our people have met me at different times and
said, " People are saying that Mr. Quong Tart is also interested in gambling," and so on.
16705. What class of men were they who asked you that ? Generally of the hawker class — only com-
mon people.
16706. Why I asked you was this : That while some of those who had spoken against me were not worth
my taking notice of, when I heard your name mentioned among the number I thought it was high time
to satisfy my brother-Commissioners on the point. But you say that you never made any remark of the
kind ? No ; I can only say that I have never had any reason to suspect that you have been connected
with gambling, and I have never said anything of the kind. Also, I am quite satisfied that you are
sincere in carrying out your views in putting a stop to the gambling.
16707. Do you know of a new pak-ah-pu bank being opened on the Botany Eoad ? Tes ; since I came
back from Queensland there is a new one.
16708. Has Hip War anything to do with that ? No ; Hip War does not do anything like that. I live
at his place.
16709. The party who is fitting up that bank has said that he is employed by Hip War, and that he is
getting £20 for doing it ? Perhaps Hip War may have sent for the carpenters to do it, but I am quite
positive that he is not interested in the gambling. He is a storekeeper, and like myself he does things
for the people who cannot contract themselves. If somebody came to me and asked me to get a car-
penter for him to do a certain thing I would do so.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. J.
Armstrong.
28 Dec, 1891.
JPBIDAT, 28 DUGUMBUR, 1891.
freamt:—
The Mayor oe Sydney (Mr, Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
QUONG TABT, Esq., | J". S. HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. J. Armstrong recalled, and examined : —
16710. President.'] Mr. Inspector Atwill was examined at very great length before this Commission, and
in the course of his examination he stated that he had received an anonymous letter, to which I want to
draw your attention. The letter is as follows : — ■
Dear Sir, Sydney, 2 August, 1891.
As a lover of fair play I consider it my bounden duty to apprise you of a conversation I incidentally heard
between Armstrong and Nock, at the last named's shop, two or three days ago. As you will see by the tenor of the fol-
lowing conversation between these two gentlemen, a regular "cabal" is in force to annihilate yon. Armstrong said to
Nock, " Buchanan and Christensen are showing the white feather ; they are frightened of Atwill ; Atwill has been talking
to Christensen, so Christensen says, and he seems frightened to take any prominent part in the League in future." Arm-
strong said, " Look here, Noek, you and I must do the dirty work ; it will not do to trust the others, they might come it
on us ; ive must move heaven and earth to remove that old wretch Atwill ; if not, he will be worse to us than the Chinese
pest ; we have all the Members for West Sydney on our side, and they will do anything we ask them, so that surely the
influence they will fetch to bear on Parkes will remove him. In fact," Armstrong continues, " I would sooner see Atwill
removed than the Chinamen." Armstrong, who seemed to be the moving spirit, then said, " We must try and bribe some
of the loafers that frequent the fan-tan shops to swear they have seen the Chinamen give Atwill and his subordinates
money at different times. You know, Nock, a pound or two would go a long way with that class of persons." To the
foregoing Nock generally replied in the affirmative, and one time he said, "I will stick to whatever you consider best,
Jack. " Pressure of time caused me to leave the shop, after I had made my purchases, although when I left the shop they
were still discussing the subject. I have done my duty. Beware of these gentlemen, or they will be your downfall.
AMICUS.
Now I have read the letter, and I want to ask you two or three questions upon it ? Very well ; but in
the first place I entirely repudiate having any conversation with Mr. Neck in my shop on the Chinese
question at all.
16711. It does not say in Nock's shop. It says in your shop? I have never had any conversation in
Nock's or my own shop about this matter.
167 L2. Is it quite true then, as related in this letter, that you had a conversation in Mr. Nock's shop on
the subject of Mr. Atwill ? I do not remember that the conversation had relation to him — his name may
have come up.
16713. In any conversation of the kind I suppose his name would almost necessarily come up ? No, for
this reason : so far as I am concerned I have always held that Inspector Atwill has done his duty in the
district, so far as my knowledge goes.
1671 -I. Is it not true that you had any conversation with Mr. Noek in his shop with regard to the Anti-
Chinese League business, and to Mr. A twill's prejudice ? Not on my part.
16715. You have not said anything in Mr. Nock's shop at any time that would hurt Inspector Atwill's
reputation ? No ; decidedly not.
16716.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 455
fhll'LS 7+T Sa7 to Mr-,Nock on any occasion that Mr. Buchanan and Mr. Christensen were showing Mr. J.
Tne vwnte feather because they were frightened of Mr. Atwill ? Never Armstrong.
ItHt J?iodT0hrist^fei1 ^er express fear of Atwill to you ? No ; on the contrary he took a more active „r^O,
part m the League than was required. J 28 Dec, 1891.
16718. Then that is not true r No.
+S9*J°^did n°l Say thlSJ " L°°k h61'e' Nock> y°u and X must do fte dirty work. It will not do to
ATw5ll » ° fV n7i ™S T6 m1°U U?- We must move heaven aild earth to remove that old wretch
S'?,0 ! ! W°rSe ^° f Ahan the ChineSe Pest "? No ! 0Q the contrary, I have always spoken
m terms ot the greatest respect or Mr. Atwill.
16720. Then that is utterly untrue ? Yes.
16721. Did you say to Nock : « We have all the Members for West Sydney on onr side, and they will do
T^t 'V6 ftfr^0 SUrely the influeQC« ^ey will fetch to bear on Parkes, will remove him, "-
Ibat is Mr. Atwill ? No ; as a matter of fact I did not know whether the Members for West Sydney
had the power with Sir Henry Parkes or not.
16722. And did you never say that you would sooner see Mr. Atwill removed than the Chinamen ? No :
never.
16723. And you never said this, I suppose : " We must try and bribe some of the loafers that frequent
tne tan-tan shops to swear that they have seen the Chinamen give Atwill and his subordinates money at
different times ? No.
16724. Or that, " a pound or two would go a long way with that class of persons "? No ; I will swear I
never said that. x
16725. And Nock did not say to any proposals made by you : " I will stick to whatever you consider best,
Jack "? Never to me. J
16726. That is all I have to ask you. The reason I brought you here to-dav was to give you an oppor-
tunity ot vindicating your own character in connection with this letter.
16727. Mr. Hawthorne.] In answer to the President, you said that you considered Mr. Atwill had done
his duty m that district ; — are you quite positive on that point? I was speaking of my own personal
feeling towards him.
16728. Do you think he lias done his duty as inspector of police in charge of that district ? To a certain
extent, yes ; and on the other hand no. I'think there has been a certain amount of negligence, but I do
not say that Mr. Atwill is blamable for that. I think perhaps he has done his duty as far as an
inspector of police can. But he says he has not enough power.
16729. You are President of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? I am.
16730. You have just stated that Inspector Atwill has done his duty so far as an inspector of police
could under the circumstances. Now, I want you to suggest some amendment of the law which, in your
opinion, would enable Inspector Atwill to improve on his past conduct ? I think I gave that fully the
first time I was examined. It is unfair to ask me that question again. Because I might be led into
making some observation that would clash with what I said the first time.
16731. President.'] You are not entitled to discuss the propriety of the question. Mr. Hawthorne is
quite within his powers in cross-examining you on your former evidence. The answers you give to
questions put to you should be fixed on your mind, and have a permanent residence there. I may point
out now, however, for your own good, that what is said here is all being taken down, and the objections
you raise to answering the questions put to you really detract from the value of your former evidence.
16732. Mr. Haiothorne.] The President put very clearly the different points in the letter to you, and I
understand you to say that you are of opinion that as the law is at the present time Inspector Atwill
did the utmost in his power to suppress Chinese gambling ? I never said that. I said that I believed s
an inspector of police he did his duty fairly well, and I believe he has done so.
16733. President.] Where did you hold the meetings of the Anti-Chinese (rambling League? At
Buchanan's, " Fortune of War Hotel."
16734. There were not more than a dozen meetings altogether were there ? I cannot tell you how many.
16735. Were you present at all the meetings ? No. I was sick when two of the meetings were held I
think.
16736. Did not the members of the League continue in their attendance at the hotel after the League
meetings were over ? Some did, and the others did not.
16737. Did you stop too ? I may have done.
16738. Was there any drunkenness on the part of the members of the League? No, not to my
knowledge ; some of them did not drink at all.
16739. Did any of the members of the League ever get into a state of excitement through drink? None,
except perhaps one.
16740. I think you had better tell us what you know without hesitation, because I am simply giving you
an opportunity of answering things that have been said concerning you ? Of me ?
16741. Of the League generally. I am not going to allow you to judge of the propriety of the questions
I put to you. I want to know if members of the League, after they formally closed their meetings, were
in the habit of remaining at the hotel, and occasionally getting into a beastly state of intoxication ? No.
After the meeting was closed there was generally an adjournment to the bar by those who remained.
Some may have remained longer than I did. Others went back to their business I suppose. I never saw
any intoxication.
16742. Mr. Hawthorne.] It was customary was it not for the members ot your League, alter the general
business of the meetingVas over, to adjourn into an upstairs parlour, where some of the members of the
League would call for drinks ? No. It would be j ust the opposite. Thatis, the meeting room is upstairs,
and they would go down to the lower bar.
16743. Will you swear that you never stopped there drinking after 11 o'clock ? Myself personally, do
you mean? . ,
16744. Yes, yourself personally; be particular on that point, please ? I am not prepared to swear that
I never had a drink in Buchanan's after 11 o'clock.
16745. It was at Buchanan's you held the meetings? Yes.
16746 And you are not prepared to swear that you, in company with other members ot the League, had
not a drink at Buchanan's after 1 1 o'clock at night ? If it was merely a question of the League I should
say we had ; but if it is a question for the Licensing Commissioners I should say no. 16747.
•28 Dec, 1S91.
456 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MTNTTTES OP EVIDENCE.
Mr. J. 16747. Tou are not before the Licensing Bench just now ; you are before a Koyal Commission appointed
Armstrong. to deal with t]ie queati0n of Chinese "ambling, &e. ;— now what is you answer to that question ? Tes;
we had drinks before and alter 11 o'clock.
10748. President. ,] It is the custom ? Tes.
16749. Do you remember Mr. T. M. Davis being at one of the meetings of the League? Tes.
1G750. Did he remain that night after 11 o'clock ? That I cannot remember.
107.")1. Tou are not sure on that point ? Kb.
16752. "Will you swear that you never saw a member of the League so intoxicated in the room while you
were having these refreshments that he vomited while he was sitting in his chair ? 1 will swear I never
saw him.
16753. It might have occurred after you left? No ; I do not think it could possibly have done so,
because I was the last one to leave the meeting-room.
16751. I am speaking about a time after the ordinary business had been gone through — in the public-
house parlour ? I never saw it.
10755. I suppose it could have taken place without your knowing it? Of course in any public-house it
might have occurred.
16756. Tou have left the others there when you left? Tes; besides the meeting-room was open to
anyone that liked to attend.
16757. Was it not a customary thing for the members of the League to sit after closing hours at
Buchanan's Hotel ? Not to my knowledge.
16758. Have you not on several occasions been let out of the back way ? No ; I have not on any
occasion.
16759. Will you swear that you have not been let out at the side door as late as half -past 12 o'clock in
the morning ? I never have.
16760. What is the latest hour you can remember ? About 20 minutes or half-past 11 o'clock.
16761. Have you left members of the League behind you at that hour ? No ; not at half-past 11 o'clock.
16762. Will you swear that you were never later than half -past 11 o'clock in Buchanan's hotel? I will
not take an oath on that. But I will swear to the best of my knowledge that I have not been in the house
after half-past 11 o'clock.
16763. Say until 12 o'clock ? I will swear definitely I was ne'ver inside the house at 12 o'clock at night.
1G764. Have you ever seen any members of the League in a state of partial intoxication there, either
during the meeting or afterwards ? Well, there is a case of one member who might have been on one or
t wo occasions, but it is very difficult sometimes to tell whether a man is intoxicated or merely excited.
16765. Tou are now referring to Mr. Christensen? Tes.
16766. President.'] Now, with regard to Inspector Atwill, and the way in which he has discharged his
duties, can you suggest in what way the inspector could better have discharged the duties of his office, if
us you say he has given you complete satisfaction ? I did not say that exactly. I think by a system of
harassing these shops he might have been able to close them.
1 6767. By that I suppose you mean by making raids ? No ; by having a policeman outside each shop door.
16768. How many policemen would it require to do that? I think in my last evidence I stated that as
there were 33 shops it would require 33 policemen.
16769. One to every two shops was your suggestion ? Tes ; where they are in a block.
] 8770. But they are not in blocks ? In most cases they are.
10772 . Well, say that one to every two shops would be necessary — that would mean sixteen extra police-
men to be on duty between 7 o'clock in the evening, and 10 or 11 o'clock at night ; — that is your idea I
understand of the way in which Inspector Atwill could have grappled with this violation of the law? I
did not say he had the power to do it.
16772. We will assume, for the sake of argument, that he has the power; — your idea is that the evil is to
be cured by an accession of the police force down there, to be used in the manner you have stated ? Tes.
1677:'. How long have you been living in Lower Q-eorge-street ? Altogether I have been living in the
neighbourhood for about twelve years.
16774. During that twelve years have the police ever carried out that system of harassing which you
think it would be well for the inspector to introduce ? Not to my knowledge.
16775. I suppose there are a greater number of gambling-shops in Lower Greorge-street now than there
were ten years ago ? Tes ; to the best of my belief there is.
16776. Mr. Quonff Tart.~] How often did your League hold meetings ? I think we used to meet fortnightly.
10777. How many members of the League were there? The number on the roll is sixty-three.
16778. About how many of that number would turn up at the meeting ? About twenty-five would be a
fairly good meeting.
16779. Tour place is close by the hotel, and as soon as the meeting was over I suppose you would go
home? Tes.
16780. And therefore you could not see what was going on after hours ? No ; but I may say that the
house in too close to the police station to do much business after hours.
Witness.] There is a matter I should like to bring before the Commission, in reference to some
of the evidence which has been already given here. This morning a person named Mrs. Ah Toy made a
statement to the effect that her husband had perjured himself in giving evidence before this Commission.
16781. President.] Is that the cabinet-maker's wife of that name? Tes; I am just giving you the
information as it was given to me.
16782. Do you know what was the particular act of perjury ? That I do not know. I thought it right
to acquaint you with the fact as it was given to me.
[The witness withdrew.]
TUESDAY,
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF ETIDENCE. 467
TUESDAY, 29 DECEMBER, 1891. .
present:—
The Mayor op Sydney (Mr. Alderman- MANNING, J.P.), President.
EEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pee sident.
QUONG TAET, Esq., | JOHN STUAKT HAWTHOENE, Esq.
Mr. Atwill recalled and examined : —
16783. President.'] In your evidence before this Commission, Mr. Atwill, you produced a letter signed Mr. Atwill.
" Amicus," and dated 2nd of August, 1891 ? Tes. f^*~^\
1678-1. How did you receive that letter ? I received it through the post. 29 Dec-> 1891»
16785. Have you been able to trace the author of it at all ? No.
16786. Have you made any effort to find out ? Tes. I have had my suspicions, but I have not been
able to get any further than that, and if my suspicions are well grounded it is by no means a common
individual who wrote it.
16787. Do you think your suspicions are well grounded ? Well, I cannot say that, and yet I cannot get
away from the feeling.
16788. Then you have no solid grounds for your suspicion ? None at all.
16789. And you have not made any inquiry ? No.
16790. Did you speak to the person you suspected of having written the letter ? I did.
16791. "What did you tell him ? I told him I had received a letter from an unknown friend. He did
not make much of a reply.
16792. Did you tell him the purport of the letter ? Tes.
16793. But he did not confess to the ownership ? No.
16794. Have you got the envelope in which the letter was enclosed ? Tes.
16795. Have you got it with you ? No ; it is in the safe with the letter.
16796. Did you look to see at what particular office the letter was posted ? No. I will forward you the
envelope.
16797. What position in society does this person occupy that you suspect of having sent you this letter ?
I cannot tell you that — I would not like to. " •
16798. Is he a trustworthy person ? I should take him to be a very respectable person.
16799. Is he the kind of person that would be likely to practise a hoax upon you ? I do not think so.
16800. What is the name of this person whom you suspect ? I cannot tell you that. I could not, on
mere suspicion, give you the name.
16801. Tou have an objection to say whom you suspect ? I cannot say. It is a mere suspicion, after
all, and I have no right to mention it scarcely.
16802. Mr. Abigail^ Have you any knowledge of the time when ex-Inspector Anderson had charge of
that district — No. 4 Division ? I was at the Mint then.
16803. Tou know, of course, that he was down there? Tes.
16804. Do you know if there were a number of Chinese gambling-dens then in Lower George-street ? I
knew very little about it then. He took charge of that division after Mr. Steel.
16805. Did you ever hear that, by very energetic action on the part of Inspector Anderson and his
officers the gambling that was carried on in that district at that time was successfully rooted out ? I do
not believe there is a syllable of truth in 'it. All the energy in the world would not be sufficient to keep
the Chinese from gambling under the present law. But I think there was very little gambling done
then. I may say that I was the first officer to make a raid in Lower George-street.
16806. Do you not believe that vigilant and energetic action on the part of the police constantly would
have the effect of checking the evil ? If I had men enough to place one at every door we could not stop
it entirely as the law stands : I have gone into these places, perhaps two or three of them, where people
have been buying pak-ah-pu tickets, and have turned them out, in order to make them ashamed of them-
selves before the public. But it has had no effect. ' I have gone in again, and then these people, who get
to know the law, have said, " What do you mean by coming in and turning us out ?" and they are quite
right, for we really have no power. They say in almost as many words, " Tou have no right to interfere
with us." We are not backed up by the law, and we are really going outside the law by taking such
action. If the law was made to provide that the purchaser of the pak-ah-pu tickets were amenable
equally with the seller, and give the police power to arrest persons found in these houses playing fan-tan
on sight matters would be different.
16807. Is there any direct connection between fan-tan and pak-ah-pu ? There is no connection between
the two as regards the law, but there is a connection when it comes to the administration of the law. Eor
example, if a house is full of people buying tickets, which we have not the legal power to prevent, there is
nothing 'to hinder others from pressing in, and passing through to play fan-tan without our being aware
of it. If there was a law to reach these pak-ah-pu players— buyers and sellers— we could better deal with
the fan-tan gamblers. .
16808. The police complaint is that the law is so faulty that they are powerless to interfere with the sale
of pak-ah-pu tickets ? Tes. ,
16809 Then as regards fan-tan, if you find a number of them playing ? We cannot go to find them with-
out a warrant, and cannot get there, as I have before explained to you, without breaking in.
16810 But your men do go in occasionally and see them playing fan-tan ? As a rule they will not let
the police see them play fan-tan while Europeans are present. Of course I cannot say what my men may
have seen occasionally ; but a law to prevent them selling pak-ah-pu tickets, or rather make it a punishable
offence, one step in advance would be gained at once. .
16811 And with reference to fan-tan, would you make those found m the reputed gamblmg-nouses prove
that they were not there for an unfawful purpose ? Tes ; because we know very well that if they go
for any legitimate business they will transact it in the shop. Business is not done in the back room.
That is where they gamble ; and I would also make it an offence to bolt their doors the way they do.
16813 And would you give the police power of entering a suspected house? Tes; I would give any
non-commissioned officer authority to enter any place where he has reason to believe a breach of the law
is bein^ committed, so that he can go in, without breaking into the place the same as he has to do now,
272—3 M mth
458 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. Atwill. wjth fifteen or twenty men to surround tlie place. To do this [ have to deprive other parts of the town
<"*-*-'■■""> of protection, perhaps for several hours, and all to catch a few poor wharf-labourers and larrikins gambling.
29 Dec, 1891. 1681J, How many men nave you attached to No. 4 Division ? I think about seventy-six. My division
includes Balmain and Manly, as well as the northern end of the city.
16814J. How many of those men are available for street-duty ? I cannot tell you exactly. I have men in
various directions — some on duty at the Colonial Secretary's Office for instance, and the Lands Office.
16815. Give ub a general idea ? Out of the seventy-six I have mentioned, I have eighteen men in Balmain ;
five in Manly ; two at the Colonial Secretary's Office ; two at the Lands Office ; one at the Library ; five
at the Station ; and four at the Police Court.
16816. How many men are on duty at a time ? During the day -reliefs I cannot turn out more than five
men on the city portion of my division. At 10 o'clock I turn out about eight men for the night.
16816$. How many from 6 o'clock to 10 ? We never have more than five on day-duty on the relief.
16817. Have you any idea how many thousands of people there are in your division ? There are I think
about 22,000 in Balmain alone.
16818. Take West Sydney ? I do not know how many miles of streets we have. But of course we are
very short-handed. Hence the difficulty of dealing with these Chinese gambling-houses under present
circumstances. Take Saturday night for example; it is a very serious matter for an officer who is
responsible for the life and property of his division, to remove his men from their beats to get into one of
these wretched houses, and then, as I have said, to catch only a few wharf -labourers and larrikins. I
have never had a more disagreeable duty in my experience — a man trying to enter these places and breaking
people's property in doing so.
16819. Is that the reason that raids have been made so seldom ? No, The Chinese watch us very closely.
I may mention that there is an exaggerated idea abroad about the extent of gambling that goes on down
there — by gambling, I mean fan-tan. It is the pak-ah-pu-ticket-solling that makes the people believe
there is so much gambling going on — they see them going in to buy the tickets. As a matter of fact,
since the strike the people have been too poor to gamble ; they have as much as they can do many of
them to keep a bit of clothes on their back, and as much food as will keep them alive. There was more
gambling on the night of the raid at Moy Ping's place than there had been for three years previously,
and I determined to make a raid that night come what may. But I should say that the police could not
have done it by themselves. Only for the service rendered by good friends that night I could not have
succeeded. All the talk about the crow-bars, and so on, was simple nonsense. No living man outside
knew of my intention 10 minutes before I made that raid.
16820. There is a strong impression on the public mind that the police could do a good deal more than
they do in this matter ? I know there is. But I think those who know me best will say that I have never
been slow to put down evil-doing either on the part of Chinamen or anyone else.
1682 L. It is your opinion that under the present state of the law more could not he done than what has
been done by the police to check the evil ? That is my opinion. We have not the slightest power, as I
have pointed out. It ought to be an offence for any person to bolt their doors against the police. The
police would not go in to do any harm, and if they saw nothing wrong going on they would go out again.
16822. Supposing you saw some individuals going into one of these places, and you knew they were going
to buy pak-ah-pu tickets or to play fan- tan, you could not, even if your knowledge were perfect, arrest
them without a warrant? No.
16823. Then at the present time so far as fan-tan js concerned, when any of your men enter oUe of these
places, and interfere with the people who are playing fan-tan, without a warrant, they are acting without
the law ? Yes. They might oust them, but they could not bring them to the station. They have no
authority whatever without they are armed with a warrant, although they might see it.
16824. Supposing the people found there resisted the police interference ? They might stop there, and
if the police arrested them they would be doing an illegal thing.
16825. Then you believe that power should be given the police to enter and arrest the persons found in
these places without the necessity of a warrant ? Tes, on sight. If that were done, and the seller and
buyer of the pak-ah-pu tickets made amenable, I can promise you there would be no fan-tan played there
within six weeks of such a law being passed.
16826. Do you think if the men on that beat from Bridge-street to the Argyle-cut paid visits of inspection
frequently during each night to the gambling-houses there, that would have the effect of checking if not
stopping the evil? I do not think so. I believe they would not take the slightest notice of a member
of the police, unless they thought he had a warrant in his pocket,
16827. Mr. Quong Tart.~\ Is there much gambling going on now? No ; there is scarcely any at present.
16828. What has caused the falling off, in your opinion ? I do not know. Perhaps the fact of this Com-
mission may have had some effect upon them.
16829. Tou have not sufficient police in your division, I understand, for you to deal with the evil ? I do not
think an increase in the strength of the police force would have the effect of stopping it. We want a new law.
16830. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Suppose you stationed a man at every door ? It would be no use unless they
had each a warrant.
16831. The Chinese engaged in these pursuits, I suppose, understand the powers of the police as well as
the police do themselves ? Tes, and they are better advised than one-half of the people in Sydney.
Even when I turn the people out of these pak-ah-pu places, I know I am doing an illegal act, though, of
course, with good intentions.
16832. What is the largest number of men you have ever had on duty on the Lower George-street beat
at one time ? I never have a stronger body than six to turn out on day-duty on relief. I have never
more than two men in George- street, between Hunter-street and the Mariners' Church, at one time.
16833. How many on duty on Saturday nights? Only two men from Hunter-street to the Mariners' Church.
16834. How many men have you in the whole of the district from 2 o'clock in the afternoon of Saturday,
till 12 o'clock at night — on each relief, I mean ? The boundary of No. 4 runs along the wharfs to
Macquarie-street, and ends on the northern side of Margaret-street. There are five men on that ground,
sometimes, on a relief. One of these is in George-street, from Hunter-street to the Mariners' Church;
and on Saturday night, if I can manage it, I have two together there, in case one might be overpowered.
16835. How many, at most, have you on duty in the whole of that district on Saturday night ? Not
more than six at any time. I have some more between 10 and 6 o'clock in the morning. I might have
eight men then. All the available men are divided equally between the day and night reliefs. The day
reliefs
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. 459
reliefs are cut up into two ; but the night reliefs do it all at once ; so that the dav reliefs added together Mr. Atwill.
would be as strong as the night reliefs, but they are divided in the day into two reliefs of five each, if none /— ^ >
of the men are on the sick list. 29 Dec, 1891.
16836. Now about Mr. Anderson's evidence, what was the reason that Inspector Anderson was able to
mate such a Garden of Eden kind of place of Lower George-street, so far as the Chinese gambling-
nouses there are concerned, in his time ? I do not know. Mr. Anderson, on his own showing, might
make a Garden of Eden of any place, perhaps.
16837. Do you thiuk there was anything like as much gambling down there while Mr. Anderson had
charge ot the district as there has been since you took charge of it ? I do not believe there was. one-
tenth ot the amount.
]olla C^se gambling has increased in proportion with the development of European gambling? Quite so.
■Zni i ' Z suPPose' that lf Inspector Anderson had charge of the district as you have had it—
with the large number ot gambling-houses carrying on— for some time past, he would have been just as
powerless to check it as you have been ? Tes.
16840. At question 11806 Mr. Abigail asks :— " Are we to conclude that these constant visitations had
the eftect or. stamping the Chinese gambling out?" and Mr. Anderson answers, " Yes, it had" ;— now,
would that also apply to you just now; that if you and your men introduced a system of constant visita-
tions to these places, that would have the effect of stamping them out ? Never ; nothing that we could do
has ever had the effect of lessening the number of these places by one. We have routed them and carried
their tables away ; but they have been at it again in the same house before the fine has been paid at the
police court.
16841. Now, with regard to the suggestions you have made for dealing with this evil of Chinese gambling,
Mr. Atwill, do you not think that the law should be made to apply to Tattersall's Club or any of the
more respectable European gambling-places ? Tes ; and very properly, too.
10842. It should be made applicable to Europeans as well as Chinese, in fact ? Tes ; let it reach everywhere.
16843. Do you find the same difficulty with the European places as the Chinese ? "Well, it is very rarely
that Europeans give themselves up to that sort of thing in the same manner.
16844. With regard to the Chinese gambling, at any rate you feel that you have done all in your power,
as inspector of that district, to suppress the evil? Tes ; I know I have done so, and I therefore do not
care what anybody may think. It has caused me many an uneasy hour. Of this I am satisfied, that
under the present law it will never be put down.
16845. Have you encountered any of the members of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League since you were
here before? Tes; Mr. Armstrong came to me last night, and said he thought I would have told him
that I had received an anonymous letter in which he was charged with taking part against me.
16846. Did he tell you whom he suspected ? Tes.
16847. Is he identical with the person you suspect ? Not at all. The person I had my suspicions of is
far more respectable.
16848. The person you have suspected is a person you would not be likely to be brought into contact with
in the discharge of your police duty ? No ; I would never come across him in police duty.
16849. And he would have no object in sending the letter to you such as to curry favour with you ? He
never wanted a favour of me in his life, nor have I from him.
16850. Is Mr. Armstrong right in his conjecture do you think, or are you more likely to be right ? I am
more likely to be right. In fact I think he is completely wrong.
16S51. Did you tell him whom you suspected ? Not at all.
16852. The President yesterday in questioning Mr. Armstrong took the leading points of the letter, and
put them to him for acceptance or rejection, and in every point Mr. Armstrong gave the statements
contained in the letter the most emphatic denial ? He did so last night to me ; but I asked him if he would
also deny that people had been closeted in his back room discussing this matter, and that people in his own
house had said they were preparing something for the Commission.
16853. Did he make any reference to Mrs. Ah Toy being anxious to come up and say that her husband
had perjured himself before the Commission ? No.
16854. Have you heard that Mrs. Ah Toy was prepared to contradict the whole of the statements which
her husband made before the Commission ? No ; I have heard nothing of the kind.
[The witness withdrew.]
WEDNESDAY, 30 DECEMBER, 1891.
■JPteseni:—
The Mayor op Sydney (Alderman MANNING, J. P.), President, j
FEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Peesident,
QUONG TART, Esq., | JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. Thomas Nock recalled and further examined :—
16854. President] Tou are very much interested in a certain letter, I believe ? What I want is to know Mr.
what the letter is about. ^-^^-^,
16855. Well, I will read it to you. The letter is as follows :— 30 Dec_ lg91#
Dear Bir Sydney, 2 August, 1801.
As a lover of fair play, I consider it my bounden duty to apprise you of a conversation I incidentally heard
between Armstrong and Nock, at the last-named's shop, two or three days ago. As yon will see by the tenor of the following
conversation between those two gentlemen, a regular "cabal" is in force to annihilate you. Armstrong said to Nock,
■ Buchanan and Christensen are showing the white fearer. ■ They are frightened of Atwill. Atwill has been talking to
f We have all the Members for West Sydney on our side, and they will do anything wo ask them, so that surely the
fnfluence they will fetch to bear on Parkes will remove him." " In fact," Armstrong continues " I would sooner see Atwill
removed than the Chinamen." Armstrong, who seemed to be the moving spirit , then said, « We must try and bribe some
of the loafeis that frequent the fan-tan shops to swear they have seen the Chinamen give Atwill and his subordinates
460 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. rnonov at different limes. You know, Nock, a pound or two would go a long way with that class of persons." To tho
T. Nock. foregoing Nock generally replied in the affirmative ; and one time he said, " I will stick to what ever you consider best, Jack '
^—^^^ Pressure of time caused mo to leave the shop (after I had made my purchases), although when I loft the shop they wore still
30 Dec, 1891. discussing the subject. I have done my duly. Beware of these gentlemen, or they will bo your downfall. AA/rTr,TTa
I suppose you want to deny that ? It needs no denial from me. It is all false— it is a fabrication.
Mr. Armstrong has from the first been opposed to interfering with the police, and has ruled mo out of
order several times when I have wished to charge them with neglect of duty. Tho idea that I should talk
about a matter of this kind in the presence of three or four persons is really too absurd.
16856-7. Tou not only did not have any conversation with Armstrong on this matter m the presence of
several people but you did not have any conversation with him to this effect at all ? No. _ _
16858. Was it part of your policy to have Inspector Atwill removed ? No, sir. I think it is hard that
so much authority should be put into the bands of so ignorant a man. _
16859. "Well, then, I should imagine that under those circumstances you are disposed to thmk that his
removal would be in the public interest ? I certainly think so.
16860. Have you not argued that way at the meetings of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League ? jSo ; I
never suggested his removal at any of the meetings of the League.
16861. Tou never said at any meetings of the League that owing to his ignorance and incapacity you
thought that his removal would be an advantage? No.
16862. But at the same time you believe, him to be ignorant and incapable ? I know him to bo ignorant,
for nobody but an ignorant man would do the biassed things that he does. _
16863. You are now making a speech ; a man may be biassed without being ignorant ? No ; a man who can
only see one way must be ignorant.
16864. "What you allude to might arise from incapacity and a dishonest discharge of duty ? "Well, I say
that he must be ignorant, if he would act in that way so openly.
16865. Mr. Hawthorne.'] But what test have you got of his ignorance. Do you speak of it from a
scholarly stand point or as an idle assertion ? I do not make the charge as an idle assertion. _ I say that
the way in which he has carried out his duties in Lower George-street show that he must bo ignorant of
what his duty is.
16866. President] In what respect has he failed to carry out his duty through ignorance ? If he says
that he cannot suppress the Chinese gambling-houses, and gives you no reason for it, I say that it must
be through ignorance.
16867. I have asked you a clear question and you ought to be able to give me a clear answer? He says
that he is not capable of doing it.
16868. Do you say that he is not capable of doing it ? He says he is not.
16869. In what way has he failed to discharge his duty as inspector of that division. I want to get
something definite if I can against Inspector Atwill ? It would be necessary for me to go into othsr
matters than those affecting the question of Chinese gambling then.
16S70. I do not care what matters you go into. All I ask is that you will point out some particular in
which he has shown himself to be ignorant of his duty ? I do not want to oppose Inspector Atwill. I
only want to oppose the system that would allow a man to go on as he has been going on since I have
been down there.
16871.. I will repeat the question : In what way has Inspector Atwill shown that he is ignorant of his
duties. "What sins of omission or of commission has he been guilty of through ignorance of his duties ?
Personally, I say, that a man must be ignorant of his duty who allows these sort of things to exist, and
does not have it removed.
16872. That is so indefinite. What sort of " things" do you refer to ? The Chinese gambling, which the
very existence of the Commission has helped to reduce. Why could not Inspector Atwill have put it
down before ?
16873. I want some definite charge against Inspector Atwill ? Well, I am not going to be the only one
to bring the charge against him.
16874. Supposing you were put in Inspector Atwill's place to-morrow, and you were, as you say you are,
fully aware of the evil, what steps would you take to suppress it ? I should have made raids oftener
than he has done, and have had no difficulty in doing it. When a raid is going to be made a number of
constables are told off to watch the house, and they may be seen from early morning walking up and
down in front of the place and asking questions, so that the gamblers know what is goiDg on and clear
out. There would have been no difficulty if Inspector Atwill had entered into co-operation in the matter
with some of the other officers and they had made these raids conjointly.
16875. Do you know what the state of the law is on these matters ? No ; but I have known men to
be sent to gaol several times when a raid has been made.
16876. Do you know what steps are necessary to make a successful raid ? I say that it is not necessary
to make a special raid. Tou can harass them as the Commission has harassed them. This Commission
has reduced the evil. There is no getting away from that.
16877. Then you would suggest that the police should make constant visitations to the houses of the
gamblers ? Tes.
16878. Do you know that a warrant is necessary in order to enable them to do that ? I have heard that
Inspector Atwill has carried a warrant for each gambling-house about in his pocket until they have
..become pretty well worn out.
16879. Do you know that the Chinese can turn the police out of their gambling-houses if they enter
them without warrants ? I did not know that. I am surprised at that because I have, since the Com-
mission has been started, seen the European gambler turned out by the police.
16880. Apart from that altogether, in order to carry out the system of visitation suggested by you,
would it not be necessary to augment the 'policemen in the district ? No; we only want a few strange
policemen — men who would not be known in the neighbourhood.
16881. .Are you not aware that the Chinese gamblers post sentinels outside their places to watch the
people who pass into the shops, and others to scrutinise them still more closely as they go iuto the fan-
tan rooms ? Well, it would be a very difficult thing to scrutinise them as I have seen as many as twenty-
five persons going in, one after another.
16882.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 461
kSnw +W* theI ™ight ^aVe been g0ing in t0 buy Pak"ah-Pu tickets and not to play fan-tan at all? Oh ; I Mr.
thJ ,™» LV- 2 Jplay1 fan"tann because I saw them passing through the shop to the room behind, and T- Nock.
1 f o« Peking the door behind them. x /^^^-N
16884' ?f\l°U SWeal ^ the ?Wnese door-keeper did not know them ? No. I could not swear that. 30 Dec- 1891-
wTuM be SnTbut tSrilouldSnl0' ^ ^ ^ be kU0™ ? ^^ ™» °f *«"
neorde m^t^67 n°+t1 St°? Pe?pl! Wll°? ,they do uot kuow from S°ing "i ? I ha™ seen a great many
Lntan^ r,d F+ t 1 I ° ^t Bt(??ed ^ t0uts for the gambling-houses and asked to go in and play
evkientlv inl^ 5? a r"*1* °f, lmP0Ssibi% * op the Chinamen to know them. They were often
tXlS^S^t^' aud when the tout llas asked them in to pla? fa-tan> z bave beard them
rhfrLe^ P™bability Is ,«** ^ I went down there I should go with somebody who was an habitue of
whnCt ^5l' 7 t m,g . d°,tha> but Z am Perfectly sure that the Chinese do not know all the people
who go inside their places to play fan-tan.
l«l»J' 5aS ?rr ^ imP™ved since the diminution in the evil of Chinese gambling? No, it has not.
tnSS >.«£ been affected by the diminution in gambling ? No ; it Seems that that end of the
plnl,, TTPerma^UtlyaffectedbytbemerePreseuceof the Chinese there in such large numbers,
d^wn there ^ Greorge-street ou that account. Our lady customers say that they will not come
16889. If the shops that are occupied now by Chinese gamblers were occupied by ordinary Chinese
aeaiers who do not gamble, there would be really the same objection on the part of a number of people
i PQgo°nDgTn°Wn fJ6 "\, °b' tbere is not the trade for the Chinese dealers in such numbers.
it>3JU. iney could sell groceries and cheap tobacco could they not ? No ; they could not live there.
1 filo? a«6 °F le& Chmamen down there, men of standing and character, who get all the trade,
ibbbi. supposing then that all the shops were occupied by Europeans, is it a quarter of the town that
ladies would frequent for choice. Do not you think that the ^neighbourhood is not suitable for a
promenade tor ladies and gentlemen going backwards and forwards to the steamers ? It always was until
i^qoo rg lucreased t0 the extent that it did. We always had really good people passing along there.
tvI i am r surPrised to hear you say that. I should think that if I were going to North Shore
or Manly as a matter of convenience, I should go along Pitt-street? "Well I do not know, a great
many of the tof people in the town went down there at one time.
16893. In the course of evidence, Mr. Nock, it has been alleged that the A.C.G. League met at a certain
hotel, and that their meetings were not very long, but that they continued in conversation after the
meetings in either that room or other rooms, and indulged pretty freely in drink, and that as a con-
sequence some of the members of the League occasionally became intoxicated and talked in a very excited
manner. It was also said that they used to stay in the hotel until considerably after 11 o'clock, and
sometimes until after 12. Evidence to that effect was volunteered, and I think it is only right that you
should have a chance of denying it ? In the thirty-two years of my life I do not think that I have taken
more than twenty drinks, and many members of the League, particularly Mr. Swinburne, Mr. Chuckley,
and Mr. Johnson, and dozens of others are actually teetotallers.
16894. Did you say dozens of others ? Yes.
16895. Why, how many members were there in the League ? Sixty odd.
16896. How many members used to attend the meetings of the League? Two or three dozen.
16S97. Did any of the members ever get drunk ? Tes ; unfortunately Mr. is given a little
that way. I used to leave the hotel before 10 o'clock to get my steamer.
16898. Mr. Hawthorne] Will you swear that you nave not been in the " Fortune of War Hotel " as late
as 11-30 p.m. ? I will swear it on oath, and briiig my wife to prove it and the steamer people also.
16S99. Will you swear that the other members of the League were not there at that time ? I could not
swear that. The meetings terminated at 930 or 10 o'clock and the latest boat I caught was 1025.
16900. Would you be surprised to hear that some of them were there until after 12 ? Well, I should
say that if was there they would perhaps have difficulty in getting rid of him.
[The witness withdrew.]
Sir, 194 and 196 George-street, Sydney, 5 January, 1892.
In the course of my interview the other day I was at a loss to precisely explain what I meant as regards the
ignorance, &c. , of the inspector. What I meant to convey was that he and others are ignorant of the great responsibility
they are under, also of the gross injustice they mete out to those who may be without the necessary " influence " to protect
them, and happening to notice the enclosed report in the Daily Telegraph of this day, in which it appears from the
statement of a magistrate that a constable allowed himself to be talked over by a solicitor without thinking of the oath he
had undertaken to do his duty, I send it to you as it in some measure explains what I mean, and I understand a. more
lengthy report appears in the Star evening paper of last night.
There is an undercurrent rumour in this neighbourhood (from conversations reported from the police) of what is to
be dealt out to those who have taken a prominent part in this agitation after the Commission is over.
Trusting that you will lay this matter before your brother Commissioners,
Yours, &c,
The President, Chinese Gambling Inquiry Commission. ' THOS. NOCK.
[Paragraph in Daily Telegraph, referred to.]
Solicitors and the Police. »
A conversation between a policeman and a solicitor engaged in a case heard at the Water Police Court yesterday
morning was subsequently referred to by Mr. Addison, S.M. The case in question was one in which a man named Albert
Stapleton was charged with using indecent language and assaulting Constable Arthur. The defending solicitor pleaded
that his client should be leniently dealt with, saying that the constable could speak for the respectability of the accused.
In reply to a question by Mr. Addison the constable said that he had only spoken to the father about the case outside the
court. He, however, afterwards admitted having had a few words' with the solicitor. Mr. Addison stated that he had
overhead the whole conversation between the solicitor and the constable just below his window, and considered that the
matter should be reported to the Inspector-General of Police. Fines of 20s., or one month, on the first, and 20s., or 21 days
on the second, count were inflicted.
TRUEST) AY,
*°2 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
THURSDAY, 31 DECEMBER, 1891.
|? resent:—
PEANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pbesident.
QTJONG TAET, Esq., | J.OHN STUAET HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mrs. Ah Toy called in and examined : —
AhTo 16901. Mr. Abigail.'] What is your Christian name? Nora.
/^^JJ^1 16902. And you are the wife of ? Ah Toy, cabinet-maker, 192, Lower G-eorge-street. He is the gen tle-
31 Deo. 1891. marl wn0 gaye evidence not very long ago.
16903. How long have you been the wife of Ah Toy ? Twenty-seven years last Boxing Day.
16904. Have you any family ? Well, I have one daughter.
16905. Do you know anything about your husband's business ? Tes.
16906. Do you know how he carries it on ? Tes.
16907. Do you know anything about the sales that he effects ? Tes, I do.
16908. Do you know anything about any sale that he made to Inspector Atwill ? Tes, I do.
16909. Tell us what you know about it ? I know that he sold a book-case to Inspector Atwill and that
the inspector paid for it.
16910. Are you sure of that ? Tes, I am quite sure. He paid seven sovereigns for it. I would not tell
a lie.
16911. Do you know anything about the evidence Ah Toy gave here ? No.
16912. Did he not tell you what he said before the Commission ? No. Him ! He would not tell me
anything. He locked my clothes up so that I could not come here to-day.
16H13. Was he afraid of your coming here ? Tes. That shows he wan afraid. He was afraid that I
should say he is no good.
16914. Oh! He is no good, is he ? No ; he is a bad man.
16915. How is he a bad man. Does he not give you sufficient food and clothing ? No, he does not give
me sufficient clothing nor anything else
16916. Is it not your fault ? No, it is his.
16917. Is he not afraid that you would spend your money in drink ? No. I do not come here to give
any evidence of that kind. I have been brought up a lady, although I have got no clothes here to-day.
16918. Have you stated to anyone that the evidence that your husbaud gave before the Commission is
all false, and that he perjured himself ? Tes ; I said that he was no good. '
16919. Have you ever told anybody that he perjured himself in the evidence that he gave ? No, I have not.
16920. Have you ever told anybody that when he said he was paid for the cabinet by Inspector Atwill,
he told a lie ? No, 1 have not. I can swear to it. He was paid for it because I was the lady who was
paid the money.
16921. Have you ever told anybody that he swore falsely ? No.
16922. Do you know any man in Lower G-eorge-street called Armstrong ? Tes; I know Armstrong, the
chemist.
16923. Did you ever say in Armstrong's presence that Ah Toy swore falsely about the cabinet ? No.
16924. Did you ever say to Armstrong that Inspector Atwill never paid for that book-case ? No. Never ;
I could not have said so. I received the money.
16925. But your husband has sworn that the amount paid for it was £5 ? Then he told a falsehood.
16926. How is that ? Because he got his £7 for it.
16927. And he told a falsehood when he said that he only got £5 ? Tes, he told a falsehood.
16928. Do you know whether your husband is connected with any gambling-establishments? Tes; he is
connected with them.
16929. How is he connected with them ? He is as big an old gambler as anybody else.
16930. Is that a fact ? Tes ; it is a fact. I will tell the truth. He is no good.
16931. But when you say that he is connected with some of the gambling-establishments, do you mean
that he receives a portion of the profits ? No ; I do not think that he gets anything out of them, but he
gambles himself, I know it ; I swear it ; and it is me that ought to know.
16932. Tou are sure that you are not influenced by strong feelings against him in saying that ? No ;
there is no question of strong feelings against him, because he is as big a gambler as anybody down Lower
George-street.
16933. Then, if your husband has said that he does not gamble, and does not countenance gambling
in any way, that would not be true ? No, it would not be true.
16934. Do you know which gambling-place your husband visits when he plays ? Tes, I do.
16935. Can you tell us ? Tes ; it is Moy Ping's — that is the place.
16936. And he loses money there, does he ? Tes ; certainly he does.
16937. And if he has stated in evidence before the Commission that he does not gamble, and does not
countenance it in any way, that would not be true ? No. He tells stories. He locked up my clothes to-
day so that I could not come here and say things against him.
16938. Does Ah Toy smoke opium ? Tes, he does.
16939. Do you ? No, I do not.
16940. Can you tell us what is the effect of smoking opium upon him. Does it render him unconscious ?
It is a very bad thing to smoke opium. It is worse than drinking.
16941. When he has a good smoke does it send him off to sleep ? Tes ; he gets stupid, but he drinks
pretty much too.-
16942. Would it take much to wake him. Would they have to pull him about ? Tes ; that is the effect
of it.
16943. How long is he unconscious ? It may be for a quarter of an hour, or it may be for half an hour.
16944. Tou think that opium-smoking is a bit worse than drinking? Tes; I wish that Mr. Quong Tart
had put it away long ago.
16945. Do you know about any young women smoking opium ? No, I do not.
16946. Do any ever visit your house ? No.
16947. Do any of your husband's countrymen come to your house to smoke ? Oh, no ; we do not keep
an opium-house. He goes somewhere else when he wants to smoke. 16948.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 463
16948. Does he go away from home to smoke opium because you are opposed to it ? Yes, he does. AhT8'
16949. And you -would object to him smoking, even to make him comfortable, would you? Oh, yes, I ^ZJJ^L
should object to it very strongly. 31Decl891.
16950. Suppose he determined to smoke, what would you do ? I would have to do the best thing I could. '
16951. I will tell you now in plain terms why we brought you here. A witness stated that Mr. Ah Toy's
wife was willing to come here and swear that her husband had perjured himself before the Commissioners?
Yes, but who was it that said so.
16952. It was Mr. Armstrong ? "What ! Armstrong of the chemist's shop.
16953. No, Jack Armstrong, the tobacconist and hairdresser ? I do not know the gentleman.
16954. Inspector Atwill has been charged with receiving a book-case from your husband ? No ; he paid
for it.
16955. 7\nd your husband came before the Commission and swore on oath that he paid for it ? Yes ; he
did pay for it.
16956. Inspector Atwill has also come here, and sworn on oath that he paid for it ? Yes ; that is
quite true.
16957. But another gentleman came here and said that you would swear that it was a lie ? I never said
that to anybody, and Inspector Atwill did pay for it as a gentleman. I came here to tell the truth.
16958. Mr. Quong Tart.] You say that Ah Toy treats you very badly ? So he does.
16959. What is the cause of it ? Because he is no good.
16960. "Why does he treat you in that way ; I always understood that you and he lived together very
happily ? Yes, we did live happily, but we do not now.
16961. How long is it ago since you became unhappy ? It is about a couple of years ago.
16962. Mr. Abigail.] Mr. Quong Tart wants to know why you live unhappily ; — what is the cause of the
change ? Well, I do not know ; I cannot tell you.
16963. Have any Europeans come to your place during the week to speak about the Commission? No,
they have not. Nobody except the officers of the Commission, who came for me in a cab this morning.
16964. You do not know what your husband has said ? I know he tells lies.
16965. Did he tell you ? No he never spoke to me or told me anything. He never tells me anything.
16966. So that if anybody had said to you that your husband perjured himself it would be untrue? I
did not say that my husband perjured himself.
16967.' Mr. Hawthorne.] Why was your husband so strongly opposed to your coming here this after-
noon ? Well he locked my clothes up now.
16963. Have you had any conversation with him as to what you would say ? No, I had not. My father
was a Postmaster-General of this country once.
16969. What objection had your husband to your coming here to-day ; — had you previously any con-
versation with him about the matter ? No, only we have got an Englishman, a turner, working for us,
and when he saw the gentleman come in the cab for me this morning he said to my husband, " They are
sending for your wife from the Commission, and she is going to say something bad about you."
16970. Has he ever locked up your clothes before ? No, only this morning.
16971. How did you come to say that you believed your husband had perjured himself before the
Commission ? I never said such a thing.
16972. You must have conversed with someone about Ah Toy's evidence before the Commission ? No ;
I do not know what he said and what he did not say.
16973. Have you never had any conversation with anyone about the work of the Commission ? !No ; I
never discussed it with anybody.
16974. Have you got any children ? Yes, I have a grown-up daughter. She is a lady.
16975. Have you had any conversation with your daughter about the Commission ? No ; my daughter
would not speak to the Chinaman. She is a lady.
16976. But have you not mentioned the work of this Commission to her ? No, she is a lady. I would
not speak to her about it.
16977. Has she never had a chat with Ah Toy about it ? No ; Ah Toy is not her father. She is a lady.
She belongs to a good family.
16978. Are you quite positive in regard to the payment for the book-case, that the money was handed to
you ? Yes ; it was paid to me in Ah Toy's office— seven sovereigns.
16979. And Inspector Atwill paid the money himself ? He did.
16980. Well, supposing that Inspector Atwill and your husband both said it was £5 ? Oh ! no, it
was £7.
16981. Mr. Quong Tart.] How long ago is it ? Just one year ago.
16982. Mr. Hawthorne.] But you might possibly be mistaken about the amount ? Oh ! but I know it,
because I was the woman who took the money.
16983. But if you knew that Inspector Atwill held a receipt for £5 instead of £7, would you not admit
that you were mistaken ? Well, my husband said that he would give it to him cheap.
16984. Mr. Quong Tart.] Did you ever hear that I was connected with any gambling-places ? No. I
know you were a gentleman every day of your life.
16985. You never heard anybody hinting such a thing, did you ? No, you nave nothing to do with
gambling-houses, Mr. Quong Tart. _
16986. Mr. Hawthorne.] Did any of the policemen ever speak to you about the book-case i JNo, i never
spoke to a policeman ; they are no good.
16987 Did Mr. Atwill ever speak to you about it ? No ; he is a gentleman. ^
16988. Your husband was asked if he received the money in gold, and he said " No, in notes ?" Then, he
tells a story. .
16989 And you are quite positive that vou were there when the money was paid .^ ies.
16990^ Can you write ? Yes ; but I will not write unless you pay for a cab for me, to take me home on
16991 Thenyou could have written that receipt ? Yes, I could; but I sent it on to Tom for him to write
the receipt for me. My husband said that the superintendent, when he got a new wife, bought some
16992. Do you know that the receipt that Mr. Nock made out for Inspector Atwill was for £5 ? Yes,
it was for £5. 1(!OQ,
16993. How did that come about ? I do not know how it came about. ibyy*.
4G4) CHINESE (JAMBLING COMMISStON — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
16994. Mr. Quong Tart.] "What hour of the day did Mr. Atwill pay you the money ? It was in the
afternoon, about half-past 3 o'clock.
81^ec"1l891 16995. Was anybody else there besides you and your husband ? Yes ; there was me and my husband
■' ' and the cart-man.
16996. "What is the carter's name ? I can remember the name of tlie cart-man, although my husband
could not when he came up to the Town Hall. It is Mr. Plaherty.
16997. Mr. Hawthorne.] Was it immediately after Plaherty came back that Mr. Atwill paid the money
for the book-case ? No ; he paid for it before it wont up to his residence.
16998. And the carter was in George-street when he paid you the money ? Of course, he was in George-
street. He was in my office.
16999. Tou are quite sure of that ? I am quite sure. I tell no stories. He came from "Woollahra.
17000. Does Plaherty live in Woollahra ? Yes, he lives there.
17001. And you remember the incident quite clearly ? Yes, I certainly do.
17002. You are not confusing it with any other transaction ? Oh, dear no.
17003. You are quite clear that it was a sale to Inspector Atwill ? Yes.
17004. And that Plahrety was there at the time he paid the money ? Yes.
17005. And that the money was paid in sovereigns ? Yes, in seven yellow sovereigns.
17006. Mr. Quong Tart.] You have a good memory ? Yes.
17007. You remember that this incident took place twelve months ago and at 330 in the afternoon ?
Yes.
1700S. Can you remember what you did yesterday afternoon at 3'30 ? I was washing in the washing-tub.
17009. Mr. Abigail.] You are quite sure that you never told anybody that your husband perjured himself ?
I am quite sure. I am certain of it.
[The witness withdrew.]
7 Jan., 1892.
THURSDAY, 7 JANUARY, 1892.
The Mayor oe Sydney (Me. Aldekman MANNING, J.P.), President.
PRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Peesident.
QUONG TAET, Esq., | JOHN STTTAKT HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. Thos. Nock recalled and examined : —
Mr. 17010. Mr. Abigail] "Wo understand that you desire to make a statement, Mr. Nock, upon some
T. Nock, matter relating to the inquiry which the Commission have been conducting? Yos. It is this : — Mrs.
Buchanan, the wife of the landlord of the " Portune of "War Hotel," Lower George-street, the house in
which the Anti-Chinese Gambling League used to hold its meetings, sent word to me yesterday that she
would like to see me. I went down and saw her, and she said to me that Constable O'Sullivan was in the
hotel the night before, and asked to see her. When she saw him, she looked at him and said, " What do
you want? " He replied, " I would like to have a word or two with you." They were standing in the
bar at the time, and she said, " Well you had better have it here." There were two other persons in the
bar— one of them was her son, and the other was Mr. Jones. Constable O'Sullivan then said to her,
"Do you remember my having a glass of beer here?" She said, " No, I do not." " Don't you remember,"
he said, " that I came in here in plain clothes, one day, with two other men." After thinking the matter
over she said, " Yes, I do." " Well," he said, " the next morning Inspector Atwill said to me, ' Did
you go into the ' Portune of War Hotel' and have a drink there ?" And the constable said he did. " Well
lor two pins," replied the inspector, '• I would remove yon." After that he (the constable) trot his removal
and in consequence resigned. Constable O'Sullivan told Mrs. Buehanan that in order that she might know
how the house was being treated by Inspector Atwill, and what she might expect in future from the
police. He said, " You know that your house is being boycotted by the police." She said, "Are you
prepared to swear to the statement just made ?" He said, " I have come here for that purpose." Mr.
Buchanan is away, and consequently she came to tell me about the matter. And I can say this, knowing
the way that we, that is, some of us, have been boycotted by the police down there, if all reports are
true, we shall have to suffer more severely in the future.
17011. Mr. Hawthorne.] Was Constable O'Sullivan on duty at the time he went into the hotel for the
beer ? No ; he was off duty, and in plain clothes.
17012. So that he went in simply in his capacity as an ordinary citizen ? Yes. I may say that Armstrong
also told me that after he had the anonymous letter read to him here he made it his business to go and
seo the inspector, and had a conversation with him ; and, so far as I could understand, the inspector
wanted to know the names of the men who still got tobacco from him.
17013. Are you aware if Armstrong has been before the Commission since he saw Mr. Atwill ? No.
I know he has not. I went there to see him, and he was engaged in his business and could not leave.
He told me that he had called to Inspector Atwill's mind that he had met him for months since the
Commission had been in existence, as one friend would meet another ; and he said he did not think it was
a manly thing for him (Atwill) to meet him as a friend whilst he possessed in his safe a letter in which
I and he were charged with conspiring to take away his living.
17014. Mr. Abigail.] I thing the best thing will be for Mrs. Buchanan to move the complaint you have
stated to us to the Inspector-General. Let it be written clearly out, and let her certify to it as correct ?
You mean a sort of affidavit ?
17015. Yes. I think if you do that it will lead to an investigation? My only object in coming here is
to show you what we have suffered by way of the boycott, and what we are likely to suffer in the future.
17016. Well, you know human nature is the same all over the world, and when the police are made
aware of the fact that they have been charged with receiving bribes and neglecting their duty, they
would be something more than human if they did not show a little feeling.
17017. And it would take a great power of self-control in them to avoid showing it. I am not saying
they do so, you understand ; that is what you say, and 1 am pointing out that it is not unnatural ? Then
you will remember that you pooh-poohed the idea when I told you that I stood up as a citizen without
protection, and now you say the police would not be human if they did not retaliate. 17018.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 465
™~ % wr' Rawtl0rn^ 1 do not think Inspector Atwill would so far forget himself as to complain to Mr.
wh Jw fT' he1 ™13 Performmg llls duty as an ordinary citizen, on account of making a purchase T- Nock-
_, ™er or anything else ? If you are quite satisfied on that point, Mr. Hawthorne, it is quite '^T^
unnecessary for me to say anything more. 7 Jan-> 1S92-
IhJ^+Jm^ nV'n- l6t me fi^ my sentence. I say this: That if Inspector Atwill did say as you
^ifw'nL °.h.aU\Tan— becauBe.bearin mind, he was not Constable O'SuUivan at the time, being off
„/'"d,m Pj0™ ?.l0the^ i!e. d,ld that> ^n he acted not only unjustly but contrary to his position as
Sv wifi 6 ! bll Z *W fS a matter of fact> he would have too much caution to do anything of
™ ^ell, I amArt S fied Wltl1 Ml'S- Buchanan's statement, I will take my risk.
£, Z fi Z t lllsPect°r1 Atwl J1 a^ojed you in any way since you gave your evidence here ? No ; nor yet
have those two constables of whom I complained. 'J
17021 Does iiot_ that show that their conduct has improved then ? It shows that what I said was true.
mvTi T * DUSmess man- Wlulsfc Inspector Atwill is protected by the State, I have to struggle for
17022. Mr. Quong Tart.] According to what you say, Inspector Atwill removed Constable O'SuUivan
for no other reason than that he went into the " Fortune of War Hotel " to have a glass of beer when
no was not on duty r- Yes ; he had him removed because he went into a house that was boycotted by the
ponce on account of the meetings of the Anti-Chinese Gambling League having been held there. My
V ?-Zt ls boycotted Armstrong's is boycotted, and Swinburne's is boycotted.
t ■ t f^-Abl9all-\ }ou do what I have suggested and you will find that something will come of it ?
Yv*s1} \ hAd as muc^ ±alth m the Inspector-General as you have ; I may state that, as a probable result
of it being known that the Commission is going to be stopped, gambling is beginning again in Lower
v^noF'lrk ' Xt WaS being carried on at t0P sPeed again on Saturday.
liOM. Mr. Quong Tart.\ Can you name the place where gambling was being carried on on Saturday
night i All the places near my shop at any rate. I can see it on every side. We have traitors m our
camp, no doubt, and that was the result of Armstrong being foolish enough to leave the meetings open
to everybody— the friends of the police and everybody else.
17025. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Tou get the credit for being the originator of the League, I think ? But I was
not, and Armstrong was not. The men who sent for me to join were Christensen and Buchanan.
[The witness withdrew.]
FRIDAY, 22 JANUARY, 1892.
tyrcsmi: —
The Mayor of Sydney (Me. Alderman MANNING, J.P.), President.
FRANCIS ABIGAIL, Esq., J.P., Vice-Pkesident.
RAMSEY McKILLOP, Esq., | QUONG TART, Esq.,
JOHN STUART HAWTHORNE, Esq.
Mr. S. Sloan, recalled and examined : —
17020. Mr. Abigail.] We have called you, Mr. Sloan, in consequence of a paragraph which appeared in Mr.
the Australian Star, purporting to give an account of what took place at a meeting of the Gardeners' S. Sloan.
Society, on Tuesday, 19 January — for the purpose of electing officers, I believe ? Yes. s~—*
17027. Tou were present ? Yes. 22 Jan., 1892.
17028. By this account you were elected secretary ? Yes.
17029. This account purports-to give a description of some remarks made against the Chinese Gambling
Commission for, as alleged, refusing to receive certain evidence from some of the officers of your Society
in refutation of that tendered by other witnesses examined before the Commission ; and it appears to have
been stated that a letter had been sent by one of your officers to the Commission, asking to be examined,
and that no notice was taken of it. Now, can you give any information to sustain that statement ? I would
like to explain. The reporter was not there at the time, and I do not know how any such statement got
out. He was, I know, talking to Mr. Flower, the late president, outside the building. AYhether he got
any information from him, on which he based that statement,' I cannot say. But I know the statement is
not correct. What I stated to the meeting was that after the report appeared in the Star on that Tuesday
week, stating that the Commission had ceased to exist, and that a report would soon be sent in, I
went to Parliament House and saw Mr. McGowen and urged him to ask Mr. Dibbs, the Premier, to
extend the Commission. That was the statement.
17030. Then, as a matter of fact, you made no communication to the Commission asking it to hear
further evidence. Whatever statement' you did make, was made to Mr. McGowen urging him to get the
Commission extended for the purpose of giving this Commission other information you wished to furnish ?
Yes.
17031. So, as a matter of fact, whoever gave this information, you do not know that it is correct, and you
were not in any way responsible for it ? No.
17032. The report says here " Sometime before the Commission ceased to sit, the secretary saw one of
the Commission's officers and told him the Society wanted to bring further eviden#e in refutation of that
tendered by certain witnesses who, it was further alleged, had altogether misrepresented some very
important facts. But you, being the secretary of the Society, state that you never made any communi-
cation of that kind, and that this report is therefore incorrect ? Yes, that is the case.
17033. Do you remember me telling you, wlien you were before the Commission on a former occasion,
that we should be only too glad for you to furnish the fullest information to the Commission in your own
way ? Yes ; I remember that quite well.
17034. You have no fault whatever to find with the mode in which the Commission examined you ? No.
17035. And you make no complaint of being curtailed in any way in your examination ? No_; none
whatever. I'may state that there are three members of the Union who are fully conversant with the
whole question as regards Messrs. Searl and Pearce ; in fact it was from them that I got the information
for the evidence which I ga,ve before the Commission ; and they are in a position to give important
evidence.
272-3 N 17036.
466 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OP EYIDENCE.
Mr- 17036. Mr. McKilhp.] Have you anything to add to the evidence you gave here some few weeks back — or
S. Sloan, fo y0U kj^y 0f a rumour having got abroad that Mr. Searl had perjured himself, or anything to that effect,
•' >7"~*~1R<)2 w't'1 re-ar(* to tlie lluml:ier °f Chinese employed by him ? From the members of the Union who know
— Jan., jsy. a]1 ^ jjactg 0£ the casc^ j am giyen t(j un(jei.stanti -that he ernphrjs a number of Chinese, as I stated in
my evidence more than once.
17037. Have you anything to add to your evidence ? No.
17038. AVho are the persons you refer to as being fully conversant with the employment of Chineso in
large numbers by any of these nursery-men ? I refer to the president, vice-president, and treasurer of
the Society.
17039. Will they be here to-night? I have not seen them since the secretary communicated with rne
last night ; but I expect that they should be here.
170-10. What was the nature of the discussion that took place at the meeting of your Society relative to
the Eoyal Commission;— were any statements made by the president, vice-president, or treasurer that
would be of benefit to be incorporated in our report? 1 am given to understand that they have evidenc
to give which would be of benefit to the Society and also to the Commission.
17011. "What is the nature of the evidence, do you know ? The evidence, I understand, is as to the
number of Chinese employed, their mode of living, and the inj ury they do us in the gardening line. One
of those whom I refer to has been a market-gardener himself, and had to give it up in consequence of the
Chinese.
17012. He had to give up in consequence of the Chinese competition ? Tes.
17013. "What district was he in v Botany.
17011. "What is his name? Mr. Lines. He is our president now ; he is employed at a private gentle-
man's place at Ashfield. He knows thoroughly how they carry on the market-gardens.
17045. Is Mr. Mowers acquainted with many of the grievances that your Association is said to labour
under ? Tes. He is pretty well acquainted with it. So is Mr. Williamson, and other members.
17016. Are you aware that the Commission summoned Mr. Flowers yesterday to attend the Commission
and that he distinctly refused to do so ; and also stated to one of the officers of this Commission who took
the summons to him, that he knew practically nothing, and could tender no evidence to the Commission ?
I was not aware of that. I understood him to state on Tuesday night that he knew a lot. Whether it
is true or not I cannot say.
17047. I may say that I informed my colleagues of the interview I had with yourself and Mr. Flowers
on Monday night, and the Commission, in order to do justice to all concerned and sift this matter to the
bottom, decided to call this meeting at night, though at some inconvenience to the members, in order to
give you and the persons you refer to an opportunity of attending and giving any additional evidence you
might wish to tender. What are the names of the three officers you have mentioned? Mr. Mew,
Mr. Lines, and Mr. Eose — they are well acquainted with the whole question.
17018. Have you been employed in any garden where Chinese worked ? No.
17049. Has your Society been represented on the Trades and Labour Council? Tes ; the late represen-
tative was Mr. W. H. Flowers, brother to Mr. F. Flowers. We have not elected another yet.
17050. Mr. Abigail.'] Now I wish to examine you further on this report. It says " the secretary was
given to understand that the evidence which the Union had to offer would be called, but up to the time
of the Commission concluding its inquiries, no intimation was received by the members that their evidence
was required. One or two spoke of the extreme gravity of the matter, and the determination seemed to
be pretty unanimously resolved upon that the Society would not fall to sleep in its efforts to discover the
why and wherefore of this conduct of the Commission." Was there anything of that kind stated at the
meeting ? Not that I am aware of.
17051. Tou were present ? Tes. I never heard such a statement made. When I made the statement,
which I did make to the meeting, the reporter was not present.
17052. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Do you generally have reporters at your meeting ? Generally they come in later
in the evening, when the meeting is over.
17053. Was the reporter of the Australian Star present at your meeting on the night in question ? He
came in late, after I made the statement.
17054. Who supplied him with the information for his report ? I cannot say.
17055. Would he not come to you, as secretary of the Society ? The only thing I gave him was a list of
the officers elected.
17056. Tou gave him no other information whatever ? No.
17057. Was there any grumbling among the members generally about the evidence given by Mr. Searl, or
anyone else before the Commission ? No.
17058. Did they appear to imagine that evidence opposed to the interests of their calling had been given
by anyone before this Commission ? They did not know the nature of the evidence. The only thing they
wanted was an extension of the time of the Commission to afford the members of the Union an opportu-
nity of giving evidence — that is, those who knew the whole of the case.
17059. Did these members who professed to have a lot of information to give on the question, state to
the meeting what was the nature of the evidence they had to give the Commission? Not on last
Tuesday night.
17060. In what capacity are these three men employed who were so anxious to give evidence before this
Commission before it closed ? One of them, Mr. Mew, the vice-president, does gardening by the day,
another, Mr. Lines, is employed at a gentleman's place at Ashfield, and Mr. Eose is similarly employed.
17061. They are employed by some gentleman in the suburbs? Tes.
17062. Tou have no idea yourself as to the character of the evidence they wished to give ? No. I
cannot give you any idea whatever, further than that I know it affected the question of the number of
Chinese employed by Messrs. Searl and Pearce.
17063. But you are certain that no one — not even excluding yourself — said anything that would lead a
listener to imagine that this Commission shut out evidence that ought to have been admitted? No.
17061. Tou are quite clear on that point? Tes.
17065. And you yourself as a witness before this Commission can state truthfully that the Commission
has not hampered you in any way, but tried to obtain from you, for the purposes of its report, all the
evidence you could give with regard to the Chinese question? 'Certainly.
17066.
CHINESE QAMBLING COMMISSION — MINUTES OT? EVIDENCE. 467
17066. Did you not state in answer to Mr. Abigail a little while ago that you thought Mr. Flowers had a Mr.
conversation with a reporter for the Star at the table at the meeting of your Society ? The reporter s- sloan-
was talking to Mr. Flowers across the table, and he was also talking to him outside the building: but „C^72a
whether he got it from him I could not say. 22 Jan-> 1892«
17067. Mr ■ McKillop.-] Did you supply the information to the Secretary of this Commission as promised by
i*npQ tSe ,time y°u Rave evidence here before ? I gave the names of certain witnesses whenl was here.
17UbS. .But you said something else ;— I think it was with reference to the exact number of Chinese
SoJu m nl"series ? I gave what I knew of the number of Chinese emploved at the time.
1706J. How many Chinese does Mr. Searl employ Y I think I said either ten or thirteen ; but I cannot
be positive as to that just now.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. John Lines, called and examined : —
17070. President.] Are you the President of the Gardeners' Union ? Yes ; that is since the last meeting. J. Ltaes.
1 am at present, President. ,-^a^-^
17071. And you were elected when ? Last Tuesday night. 22 Jan., 1892.
17072. What office did you hold before ? JNo office.
17073. Were you a private member ? Tes.
17074. Tou took a deep interest in the affairs of the Union however ? Tes.
17075. I do not know whether you saw an article, or more correctly, a series of paragraphs about the
Commission m the Australian Star newspaper ? Tes ; I saw them. "
17076. I have a copy of that paper before me now, and will traverse the main points in it. Some little
discussion took place, it says, " anent the alleged refusal of the Eoval Commission'to hear evidence tendered
by themembers of the Union. Was there a discussion of that" kind ? No, there was no discussion on
the point at all. _ While the business of the meeting went on, a couple of the members of the Union had
a conversation with the young lad who was reporting for the Star ; but I was in the chair, and what was
said between them I could not say. I do not think, however, that that report is at all correct. The
refusal-came from Mr. Dibbs, not as far as I am aware, from the Commission. Mr. Dibbs. said that
he was damned if he would re-open the Commission.
17077. But was that part of the proceedings of the meeting over which you presided ? Well, I was in
the chair at that time.
17078. _ What I want to know is this— whether that was the subject of discussion? Tou see I am
traversing these paragraphs. What I want to know first is, whether there was any such discussion as
is here described in the ordinary and proper conduct of the meeting over which you presided ? The
Secretary of the Union brought up a report that he had seen Mr. McGowen, M.P., and one or two of the
other Labour members, as to whether the Commission could be re-opened for the purpose of taking our
evidence. Mr. McGowen asked Mr. Dibbs about it, and the reply was that he would be damned if he
would re-open it.
17079. Pardon me. Tou can stop at that point. I want to know this now — whether it is true that
" some little discussion took place anent the alleged refusal of the Eoyal Commission on Chinese Gambling
to hear certain evidence offered to that body by the members of the Union r" There was not the
slightest complaint of that kind.
17080. Very well ; that isthe point that I wanted evidence upon, and you have put in evidence what took place
between the reporters and one or two members of your Union, and you have also put in evidence what
took place between your Secretary and Mr. McGowen, M.P., and what Mr. Dibbs said in reply about the
matter ? Tes.
17081. The paragraph from the Australian Star continues : — " It was stated that some time before the
Commission ceased to sit the Secretary saw one of the Commission's officers and told him that the Society
wished to bring forward evidence in refutation of that tendered by certain witnesses, who, it was further
alleged, had altogether misrepresented some very important facts." Now 1 want to know whether it
was said that any officer of this Commission had been informed that some of you gentlemen wanted to
be examined, or re-examined, and that he refused to have you examined? Well, it seems to me that that
was a private conversation between Mr. Flowers and the reporter of the Star.
17082. But, as a matter of fact, you being in the chair, that was no part of the proceedings of your
meeting ? It was simply a private conversation that took place, while the meeting was going on, between
Mr. Flowers and the young lad who represented the Australia?! Star, at the meeting.
17083. Verv well ; then the paragraph goes on to say. "The Secretary was given to understand that the
evidence that the' Union have to offer would be called, but up to the time 'of the Commission concluding
its inquiries no intimation was received by the members that their evidence would be required." Was
the Secretary of your Union given to understand anything of the kind, and was any public reference
made such as is here recorded ; that is to say, that certain witnesses have tendered evidence, that it
was understood that they would be called by arrangement with our Secretary or any member of our
Commission, but that they had not been called. Was that publicly stated at your meeting ? No ; I will
not say that.
17084. It was not publicly stated there. I want to go a step further. Is it true within your knowledge
independently of that meeting that such a set of facts really occurred ? No ; I cannot say so.
17085 But you can say positively that it was not so, cannot you ? I can say the names of possible
witnesses were sent in to the Secretary of this Commission, but that there was any promise to call them
I cannot say ; in fact, no secretary could give such a promise. _
17086. But you do say that the names of certain gents? connected with your Union who desired to be
examined, and whom it was important should be examined, were .given to our Secretary ? Tes.
17087. What were those names? There was mine for one, Mr. Mew's (our Vice-President), and Mr.
B.ose (our treasurer) .
17088. And who gave the names to our Secretary ? Mr. Sloan.
17089. And have you read Mr. Sloan's evidence? No.
17090. Were you present at a deputation that waited upon me ? N o.
17091.
4GS CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OF .EVIDENCE.
17U01. But you know that there was such a deputation ? Yes. It was principally in connection with
the furniture trades.
17092. Did not the deputation cover the whole of the ground that vou would be inclined to travel over
22 Jan> 1892' with regard to the effect of Chinese as against European labour, 'both in gardening and in furniture-
making r" Well, if you will allow me to explain, we have heard of such contradictory statements being
given in evidence before you. How those reports cot about, of course, I cannot tell.
17093. But I want to take you back to the deputation that waited upon me as Mayor. You have seen
the reports of the deputation. You know what wide boundaries it had — how comprehensive it was in its
complaints. Did not the deputation travel over the whole of the ground that you would travel over to-
night if I examined you on the general effects of Chinese competition upon market-gardening and furni- ■
ture-making ? "Well, yes ; I have no doubt but that it did.
17091. You have not read Mr. Sloan's evidence? No.
17095. Do you not think the evidence given by Mr. Sloan in the course of examination would very largely
comprehend the evidence that you yourself would feel inclined to give ? Well, the evidence that I
should have given would have been entirely with regard to the market-gardeners of Botany — a district
that I do not think Mr. Sloan knows at all intimately.
17096. You are at liberty to state now any views that you have with regard to the market-gardening
as carried on by Europeans or Chinese at Botany ? Well," but if the Commission has closed its evidence,
there is no need for it.
17097. That is a question for us to determine. As a matter of fact, we are sitting now in order to_ get
your views upon the matter ? Well, the only thing is that the European gardeners are now entirely
knocked out in market-gardening, and they soon will be in the nursery trade too. European buyers take
Chinese instead of European things. Ten years ago you would not find a Chinese market-gardener in
Botany, and now you would not find more than one European market-garden there.
17098. Is not the competition you dread so much, competition in the cultivation of vegetables only ? Yes.
17099. Well, have you anything that you absolutely know to speak of upon the question because I may
tell you that we have ampie evidence on the point. There is nothing new. It is just what it has been
for years. The only thing is that the Chinese are getting a tighter grip all the time.
17100. Can you Buggest any means by which the European market-gardeners can be delivered from this
competition of which you speak ? Only the expulsion of the Chinese.
17101. That israther a radical cure is 'it not; — do not you think that the Chinese Bestriction Laws are
enough in themselves in the course of time to accomplish all that you hope for ? Erom what I hear
only one Chinaman has paid the increased poll-tax and they are leaving at the rate of hundreds a year ;
yet the number does not diminish at all. I do not think you would find any fewer here to-day than you
would have done three years ago.
17102. Would you be surprised to learn that the Census returns show a diminution at the rate of something
like 700 a year ? Yes, I should be very surprised.
17103. But you would bow to the returns of theCensus collector, would you not? Yes, I certainly would.
17104. And do you not think that the gradual operation of the Chinese Bestriction Laws would, in the
course of time, effect the desired end ? Yes, if they were strictly carried out and there was no over-the-
border slipping in.
17105. Well, have you any figures to show that the Chinese population is not decreasing ? No, I have not.
17106. It is a mere supposition of yours ? Yes.
17L07. Is there anything more that you would like to add with regard to the Chinese competition in your
trade, anything I mean that you have not said to-night and that has not been said by other witnesses ?
No, I think that is really what interests gardeners.
17108. Well, I might inform you that the whole of that ground has been already covered. The only
thing i* that none of the other witnesses have even hinted at what has been said by you — that there is an
illegal Chinese immigration or an evasion of the poll-tax, and the only new point that you make is that
> you would advocate the utter expulsion of Chinese ? Yes.
17109. You think that the situation is so grave so far as your fellow-tradesmen are concerned as to
warrant such an extreme step as expulsion ? Yes ; though I would not advocate it only for the sake of
the men in our Union, but for all engaged in the furniture trades and the produce trade generally.
17110. You deliberately recommend the total expulsion of Chinese? Yes.
17111. Supposing they had paid the poll-tax would you recommend the repayment to them of that £100?
Certainly. I would be fair to all men.
17112. Then it amounts to this : That you would recommend the G-overnment to subsidise the Chinese
for leaving the Colony ? No, it would not be subsidising them, because you would find that so few of
them have paid the £100.
17113. And the men who had come in before the £100 poll-tax was instituted you would expel without
any compensation ? I would pay their passage back to their own country, and if they had any property
here I would give them the opportunity of selling it.
17114. Is it your opinion that that would result beneficially to the country ? Yes.
17115. And do you think that one of the results would be that vegetables and produce of all kinds would
be procurable as easily as they are now, particularly in those arid districts where few white men cultivate
vegetables. Do you think it would be desirable in the interest of the European population in those parts
of the country that I have in my mind that the Chinese should be expelled ? Provided that the Chinese
would keep to market-gardening it would be all very well ; but they will not keep to it. They are con-
tinually taking up other trades. You remember four years ago, when there was a great agitation against
the Chinese. At that time there was so much in the paper about them that I thought it would be a good
thing to start a green-grocery business. But what I found was this : That European women preferred
to buy their vegetables from Chinamen for the sake of beating them down. They would say, "how much
for a cabbage, John ?" He would tell them that it was 4d. " Well, I will give you 3d." they would say,
and of course he would say, " Well, then, missie, take it." That sort of thing seems to go down better
with European women than for an Englishman to say " 3d." aud stick to it.
1711.6. Generally, then the paragraph that I have referred to in the Australian Star is not true in detail?
No.
17117. Neither your Union nor any of its members have been treated with any discourtesy by the Com-
mission, you think ? No, certainly not. Our only complaint was that the Commission had been stopped
by the Colonial Secretary. 17118.
CHINESE- GAMiSLlltCI COMMISSION*— MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 469
17118.
And what was your grievance from that point of view ? Simply that we thought we could give Mr
!^me ^formation which might be valuable. l J ° b j ££es
£il™ Yhjnt WaS *^e nlformation y°u thought you could have given ? Well, you had Mr. Sparkes, from ^— * — v
■Botany, had you not. & ' " i ' 22 Jan., 1892.
™lw 5!j Wh,at °f that ? . Well, lie Save you some information as a market-gardener and there is no
market-gardener ot that name m Botany. b
i"n Sydney WaS Aldepman Sparkes who Save evidence before the Commission ? He is a joiner and works
1719?" Tt? Wh\* stat,eme,lt ma*° hJ him d° you wish to traverse ? That he is a market-gardener.
1 71 M Sft 7 • ff1 a market-gardc^ at one time ? No, he never was a market-gardener.
imiv .^^.^PP0811^ that we Mked him for information about the Chinese market-gardeners down there
S all right°Wn °aP 7 M 7°r B0taDy ? WeU« if he had had reliable "formation it would have
,l^S\Tr+eVid!ntXtake exlc.ePtion to some of Mr. Sparkes' evidence. Will you kindly tell the Com-
Tor ™ Pf °f i* y°U ,obJeut l0 ? J d0 not know ^hat his evidence is at all
u Lily, inen it you do not know what his evidence is, why did you want the Premier to extend the Com-
mission in order to give you a chance of contradicting it ? What I objected to was this : I heard that
the'Colon '' am * market-gardener and am doing just as well as when the Chinese came to
' ll12™ Mr' ibJrffai^-rP0 you not tllink that y°u are confusing Alderman Sparkes with Alderman Smith,
™%»r o£ ^ crnth Botany, who is a market-gardener ? Perhaps so.
17128. JXrendmt.] Then I will take Mr. Smith's evidence. Would you have desired that the Com-
mission should be extended in order to give you an opportunity of rebutting that ? No, it was evidently
a mistake on the part of the person who gave me the information. They misquoted Mr. Sparkes'
evidence.
17129. Then you confess that one of the reasons why you desired the Commission to be extended was the
result or a mistake ? Yes.
17130. Was there any other reason why you wanted its extension ? Tes ; Mr. Sear! is said to have
sworn that he did not employ any Chinamen now.
J713ni,-He did -n0t' aS a matter of fact> swear tnat at all. Supposing he admitted that he had altogether
five Chinamen m his employ, would you swear that that was wrong— would you swear that he had eighteen ?
No, I certainly would not.
17132. Tou are not prepared to traverse Mr. Searl's evidence at all, then ? No, I am not.
17133. And you are quite satisfied with the truthfulness of it, if he stated that he had four or five ? Tes,
quite so.
17131 Will you let me abandon all that, and ask you one or two questions ? What are you by trade,
Mr. Lines ? I am a gardener, and am at present on the Parramatta Eoad, at Ashfield, in the employ of
Mr. Wilson, the manager of the Bank of New Zealand.
17135. You are in charge of his grounds ? Yes.
1713(5. Would you mind telling the Commission what remuneration you get ? I get 30s. a week, and live
in the house.
17137. That would be equal to about £2 10s. a week if you had to find yourself ? Yes.
17 1 38. And how many hours do you work ? Prom 7 o'clock in the morning until 5 at night.
17139. How many working hours does that give you, after deducting meal times ? Eight hours a day.
17140. Are there any occasions upon which you work more than eight hours a day ? Yes, there are.
There are times whea it suits me to work a little longer, in order to get my work done.
17L41. There are times when it is found necessary in gardening to work rather earlier in the morning
than usual? Well, it is more often necessary to work late at night.
17L42. At all events it is necessary for you, occasionally, to vary your hours? Yes, I do not think that
a good gardener should value his time.
17143. I wanted to know if you had not to work sometimes other hours than from 7 o'clock in the
morning until 5 o'clock at night? Well, I do not " have" to do it, but I choose to do it if it is very hot
weather.
17144. Have you any knowledge of any Chinaman employed similarly to yourself ? Well, I can tell you
what the foreman of a large nursery-man told me — that you can ask the Chinese to work early and late
and they are always willing to do it, no matter whether on Sundays or week days.
17145. Did, he tell you, what their hours were ? Prom six in the morning till six at night.
17146. That would be about 10 hours a day ? Yes.
17147. Did he tell you what wages he paid them ? One, 25s. ; another, 2Ss. ; and another, 30s. a week.
17148. And who keeps the Chinese? They keep themselves.
17149. What would European gardeners of corresponding capacity get if they were employed by the
same men ? They could not do it under 2 guineas, if they had to keep themselves.
17150. So the difference is about 10s. a week ? Well, it is usual where Europeans are employed that
they are boarded and lodged and they get from 15s. to £1 according to their ability.
17151. The European gardener's rate of wages for the same class of work would be from 15s. to £1 a
week and board and lodging additional ? Yes.
17152. In your own case you put your board and lodging down as worth about £1 a week ? Yes.
17153. Then it would be a fair thing to value the board and lodging of these Chinamen at £1 a week or
less ? Well, 4s. a week would keep a Chinaman, this foreman told me.
17154. He told you that these Chinamen could be kept at the rate of 4s. a week ? He told me that they
could keep themselves for 4s. a week.
17155. I am not speaking about what they could keep themselves for. I am speaking of the value of
their board and lodging supposing they were kept on European diet ? Well, I suppose it would cost as
much as it would cost to keep a European, that is, supposing they would eat the food.
17156. Well, do you know any of the market-gardeners at Botany who employ Chinese ? Yes.
17157. Can you tell me what wages they pay them ? Between 26s. and 28s. a week.
17158. And what would a European get ? Between 15s. and £1 a week and his keep.
17159. What would you value the board of a European at— 15s. a week? Well, I should question if
thev lived in the house whether it would cost as much as that, 17160.
470 cnnfESE gambling commission — minutes of evidence.
Mr. 171C0. So that, calculating their board and lodging at the maximum, it would bring their wages to some-
' • ^Anes- where about 30s. or 33s. a week ? Tea, about that. , „, . A f
22J^1892 1716L Do the EuroPeans Sive more work for tW service of eight hours a day than the Lmneso do lor
"' ' their service of ten hours a day ? I believe they do. . ,, ,,
17162. I mean this— do they during the eight hours which constitutes their day's work do more tnan tno
Chinese in the ten hours that constitutes their day's work ? I should hardly like to answer that question.
It is difficult to say exactly. I know that the Chinese arc plodding workers. They are slow but tney are
steady and keep on at the same jog trot from morning till night.
171G3. I suppose the rate of wages you have quoted obtains all round the city— at North bhore as well as
clsGwn6r6 y j. gs.
171G1'. Do you know anything about the question of manuring the gardens at Botany? Well, I know
what it used to be some years ago for they all had liquid manure with which to water their cabbages.
17165. "Would you use that ? Certainly not.
17166. "Why ? Because it is too forcing for the vegetables and bad for the health of the consumers.
17167. Have you studied the chemistry of the question at all ? Well, 1 have studied it in the old country.
I have relations who are farmers there and they have all gone back to the old farm-yard system _
17168. How long is it since you were in England ? I was at home close on three years, and was living the
whole of that time on a farm. I came back last Queen's Birthday.
17169. What did your relations raise on their farm ? Wheat, oats, barley, and so on.
17170. They did not produce cabbages or lettuces ? No.
17171. They did not use human excrement on that farm ? No.
17172. And you are decidedly averse to using that kind of manure on vegetable-gardens ? Yes.
17173. And you understand the question scientifically ? Well, I was with Mr. Frank Smith at Botany
for a great many years looking after his vegetable-garden.
17174. What is the difference between the chemical properties of human excrement and stable manure?
I suppose there would be a great deal more ammonia from human excrement than from stable manure.
17175. Would you reject a manure because, there was too much ammonia in it? Well, for growing
cabbages and lettuces, and so on, I should decidedly object to human excreta, that is if I had to eat it, and
no doubt the Chinese would do the same.
17176. 'Mr. McKillop.] How long is it since you had a vegetable-garden of your own? 1 never had one
of my own. I was in the employment of Mr. Frank Smith. .
17177. You stated some time ago that the only way of getting over the difficulty with the Chinese
would be to clear the Colony of all Chinamen. Do you mean that to apply to respectable Chinese
merchants and so on, or only to those who come into competition with the working-classes ? It would be
impossible to draw the line.
17178. Would it be correct if Mr. Searl said that he only employed one Chinaman ? No.
17179. How many does he employ ? . Three.
17180. Then his evidence is quite correct, because he said that although he had only one Chinaman in his
employ, just then, he intended to employ two more again, and considered three would be his average
number. Did he ever employ any at Ashfield ? Not that I am aware of.
17181. Would you be surprised to hear that evidence has been tendered before the Commission to the
effect that, owing to the increase of the poll-tax, the number employed in Chinese furniture-making has
been on the decrease ?. Well, if that has been stated in evidence, I suppose it must be so.
17182. And would you be surprised to hear that it has been stated before us that, for similar reasons,
Chinamen are leaving their gardens, and returning in large numbers to their own country? I do not
see any of them going away.
17183. Are you aware that we have had evidence tendered by Alderman Smith, of North Botany, to the effect
that several gardens that were worked by Chinamen in the neighbourhood had been given up and were
now in a deserted state ? I have not heard of any such thing taking place.
17184. Is the competition very keen amongst the Chinaman themselves ? Well, I should not think so. I
think they are too loving a race to compete with each other. Tou never see any of them fall out on the road.
17185. Do you know anything of the habits of the Chinese in other parts of the Colony? No, I only
know about Botany, and having been there so long I know a good deal about the race there.
17186. Do any of 'the nursery men but Searl, to your knowledge, employ Chinamen ? I know that Searl
does, and I know that Pearce does. Tresseder used to, but he has now given his Chinamen up.
17187. What is the complement of Europeans employed at Searl's nursery at Botany ? Only one, and
a carter who takes the things into town.
17188. Are you aware that it is by reason of the heavy rents that they are willing to pay to the landlords'
that the Chinese get hold of land that ought to be in the hands of Europeans ? Yes, I believe that is so.
17189. And it is through the amount of energy displayed by the Chinese and the long hours that they
work that the keenness of the competition with Europeans arises ? Tes.
17190. Did it ever come under your observation when you were employed by Mr. Erank Smith, of Botany,
that the Chinese worked on Sundays ? Tes, they always work on Sundays.
17191. I know that they work on Sundays. The question is whether they work all day on Sundays?
Oh, no ; I do not know that they do that.
17192. Does not a European gardener insist upon his men working on Sundays ? Well, I think he would
rather do what working it was necessary to do on Sundays himself than call upon his men to do it.
17193. Would you be surprised to hear that it has been said here that human excrement is used by
European as well as Chinese vegetable-gardeners, only that instead of being put over the vegetables it is
put by them at their roots ? Tes, I should be surprised to hear that.
17194. Do you know any instance in which European gardeners have used human manure. No.
17195. Not a single instance. Nor one in which they have used urine ? No, it would not do to use urine
unless it was very heavily adulterated with water.
17196. Do you know that it is used ? No.
17197. But you know that the Chinese use it? No. If they do it would have to be very greatly diluted.
How do they get hold of it ?
17198. Well, we may tell you that they do use it. They store it in large jars in different parts of
their gardens ? Now that I come to think of it, I remember hearing some years ago that those jars wore
used for that purpose. I never saw the urine used. I only saw the jars there.
Mr.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION— MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. ^71
Mr. Joseph Kose called and examined :—
1 JiSS'i F™sidentl What are you, Mr. Rose ? I am a gardener. Mr-
i<79nn 'tt °U ar° treasurer of the Gardeners' Union ? Yes J- Rose-
)S" tvT l0ng haVe y°U 000UPied tnat Position r Six months. zf^^k
17202 tim J0U I66 a rePor1fc.of th,e last meeting of your Society which appeared in the Star newspaper? No. ' '
y7™°- ¥ y°u hear anything about it ? Not until to-night.
at that meTtin *? * *llZ ^^ qUeSti°nS' °n that rePort ; but' in the firat Pkce- X suppose you were present
I22ii. T11a Stated ^j* S°me djsc"ssiou took Piace anent the alleged refusal of the Commission to receive
in that sInsroCfth^ word J dlscussio11 take place at that meeting ? There was a discussion, but not
L7w°f™ThFe+rPnrt Sa?S :~ " Zt Jas stated tbat some t™e before the Commission ceased to sit the secretary
Kl™. Commission s officers and told him that the Society wished to bring forward evidence in refu-
«™L« T *T * » y C6rt1am witnesses, who, it was further alleged, had altogether misrepresented some
i^7nfiT ! , ;~WaS that Stated afc the meeting publicly ? Tes ; that is at the meeting privately.
Hi* # rep°^ ^ 8Sy? :~" The Society was Siven t0 understand that the evidence which the Union
naa to otter would be called, but up to the time of the Commission concluding its inquiries no intimation
was received by the members that their evidence was required" ;— did the secretary state that publicly at
i ^rvf Tvf {\, Stated that the Commissi°ii was being closed without calling this evidence.
,7 J- -Uld *he secretary state that he was given to understand that the evidence which the Union had
to otter would be called ? Tes, he did.
1720S. Did one or two of those present speak of " the extreme gravity of the matter, and the determina-
tion seemed to be pretty unanimously resolved upon that the Society would not fall to sleep in its efforts
™d'seover the why and wherefore of this conduct of the Commission"";— was that said publicly ? Tes, it was.
17-09. Are you aware that the secretary has no record of this at all, either in his books or memory, so far
as it being said 111 open meetings is concerned? I am not aware of that.
17210. And the President says the same thing— that is, they both repudiate this report as being untrue ;—
was the reporter present at the meeting when it began ? No ; not when it began. He came in afterwards .
17211. Who did he get the information from ? I cannot say.
172 12. -He did not get it from you ? No.
17213. Were you there during the whole of the meeting ? I was. There were two reporters there ; ore
, from the Evening News and one from the Star. The latter came in just after the meeting.
17214. Do you know whom he interviewed after the meeting ? I saw him talking to Mr. Flowers.
17215. Is Mr. Flowers authorised to give the minutes of the meetings to the Press ? No.
17216. He has no authority at all to give such information? No.
17217. He is not an executive officer? He ceased to be an officer on Tuesday night. Mr. Lines was in
the chair when the Star reporter was there.
17218. Now, 1 want you to think whether some of these statements which you believe to have been made
at the meeting were not made privately between the members as matters of gossip as it were, and not the
subject of discussion ? Well, it was privately said, because Mr. Flowers said to the reporter of the
Evening News that he hoped anything he was saying would not be reported.
17219. Mr. M'Killop.~\ Did he make that statement in open meeting of the Society ? Tes.
17220. The statement as reported in the paper ? No. I think the Evening News reporter was there.
17221. Did Mr. Flowers at any time when you were sitting as a meeting speak in a strain such as was
reported in the Star, that the Commission had treated the members of the Society in anyway but a proper
manner ? If you will allow me I will quote the few words Mr. Flowers used. He said he thought it was
a shame that this Commission which was formed by the late Government should be shut up by the
incoming Government, when there was more important evidence to give ; that it was not fair to all sides.
17222. Then he actually condemned the Government for curtailing the time of the Commission, and not
giving an opportunity to members of your union to give evidence ? Yes, that is correct.
17223. President.] Did Mr. Flowers say what was the important evidence they had to give ? No.
1722-1. Do you know ? No. I understood there were two other persons to give evidence, but I do not
know what it was about.
17225. Nothing was said to the effect that this Commission had treated your secretary in a discourteous
manner ? No, nothing was said about that at all.
17226. Mr. Hawthorne.'] Was there a feeling among the members of your Society that this Commission
was trying to shut out evidence from your Society that would rebut what was previously said by witnesses
examined before the Commission ? Nothing of that kind was expressed whatever.
[The witness withdrew.]
Mr. Isaac Mew called and examined : —
17227. President.'] You are Vice-President of the Gardeners' Union, Mr. Mew ? Yes. Mr.
17228. How long have you occupied that position? For eighteen months ; since the formation of the Society. I. Mew.
17229. You had a meeting of the Society last week ? Yes ; on Tuesday.
17230. Were vou present at that meeting ? I was.
17231. Did you read a report of that meeting, which appeared in the Australian Star? Yes ; to-night I
read it when I entered the hall.
17232. I want to ask you some questions concerning that report ; just follow me as I read the paragraphs.
In the first place it is stated that some little discussion took place anent the alleged refusal of the Eoyal
Commission on Chinese gambling to receive certain evidence from members of your Society. Now, as
a matter of fact, was that publicly discussed at the meeting in question ? No; certainly not.
17233. The next paragraph states, " Some time before the Commission ceased to sit the secretary saw one
of the Commission officers, and told him that -the Society wished to bring forward evidence in refutation
of that tendered by certain witnesses who, it was further alleged, had altogether misrepresented some very
important facts " ; — was that stated at the meeting publicly ? No.
17234. Also that '■ the secretary was given to understand that the evidence which the Union had to offer
would be called, but up to the time of the Commission concluding its inquiry no intimation was received
by the members of the Society that their evidence was required; — was that the subject of discussion at the
meeting ? No. 17235.
22 Jan., 1892.
CHINESE OAMBLIXQ COMMISSION — MINUTES OF EVIDKXCE.
Mr. I. Mew. 17235. Did one or two members of tlie Union speakof " the extreme gravity of the matter ?'' Yes ; I did.
22'janA~189' ^236, ^ow' * want 70VL to 8™° me the substance of your observations on that occasion ? The secretary
'* "" reported that the Commission had closed its inquiry, and that he had taken steps to bring the matter
before tho Premier in order that the Commission mio-ht take our evidence before it finally closed its
sittings, and that if it was finally closed in reality to ask the Premier to rc-opon it again. I spoke in
support of the secrecary's action in the matter, complimenting him on what he had done ; and I further
said that the extreme gravity of the case would warrant the president aud secretary still using their best
endeavours to induce the Premier to allow the Commission an extension of time so that wo might givo
our evidence.
17237. Now, will you tell me in what respect you considered the matter of extreme gravity ? In this
way : It appeared to me — and that was the remark I made — that the Commission having been appointed
by a Government that had just retired from office, the new Government should not have so speedily
closed the Commission, when there was evidence to be tendered that would be favourable to our side of
the question, and that such evidence should have been received before the inquiry was concluded. We
were under the impression that such evidence had been shut out, though nor purposely, so far as the
Commission was concerned.
17238. That is by reason of the Commission expiring at this stage ? Yes.
17239. Now, supposing the Commission had been extended, what particular evidence would you have
desired to lay before us ? My evidence was specially relative to the point that has been before our
Union lately, bearing upon the Chinese being employed in nurseries, which has only taken place within
the last two or three years.
17210. Then one of your reasons for wishing to appear before the Commission was in order to establish
the fact that European workmen were being driveu out of the nurseries by the employment of the
Chinese ? Yes.
17241. Is there any other reason in your mind for re-opening the Commission, or is that the sole reason?
That was the principal reason. Personally, I am totally opposed to the Chinese. I think they are an
undesirable people to form part of the community. 8o far as I can see, there does not appear to be any
sympathy between them and. us.
17242. Are you not aware that a deputation waited upon me, and brought before this Commission repre-
sentatives of the Gardener's Union, and some of the cabinet-makers of tho city with that object in view,
and in fact traversed the whole of the ground that you could possibly traverse on the subject? I was
aware that a deputation from our Union waited upon your Worship bearing upon the subject, but I
thought that further evidence might bo adduced to give still greater strength to our view of the question,
particularly with regard to our own trade in connection with the employment of Chinese in the nurseries.
.17243. You were under the impression then, that we did not examine some of the members, of your
Union upon that subject ? Not exactly that ; but we thought that the additional evidence to be forth-
coming, might be worthy of your attention.
17244. But you do not know whether such evidence would be merely a reiteration of that already given ?
I was not certain.
17245. Well, I may tell you that in my opinion the. whole question has been pretty well traversed, not
only as regards your trade, but as to the furniture trade, and as to the habits and customs of the Chinese
generally. You are aware that for some time past there has been a Chinese Eestriction Act in force in
this Colony, and that the evils you complain of must necessarily diminish under the operation of such a
law ? Yes ; I am quite aware of the existence of that law. But we have frequently had representations
made of Chinese coming here from different parts of this extensive continent, and in that way evading the
Eestriction Act.
17246. Have you any direct evidence to offer with respect to the evasion of the poll-tax by tho Chinese ?
Only that some have been convicted.
17247. That we all know, and that the law has been upheld in these cases ? Yes.
17248. I suppose as a matter of fact we may take it that your Union is perfectly satisfied with the treat-
ment of the Commission so far as it ha,s gone ? Yes ; we have not the slightest complaint to make of the
Commission.
17249. Do you endorse in any way the paragraph I read tor you with regard to the Commission ? No ; it
is altogether incorrect. My remarks dealt entirely with the Premier, and I expressed the opinion that
instead of suddenly winding up the Commission in the way he did greater care should have been
bestowed to give us an opportunity of being heard, especially as the secretary informed us that my name
and the names of others had been handed in over a month ago, stating that we would like to give evidence
before the Commission.
17250. It is quite true that when the secretary of your Society was under examination here he did give
in some names ; and of course we had a mass of evidence of one kind and another when the Commission's
labours were brought to a close — but in my opinion we had sufficient evidence before us to enable us
to come to a conclusion, and when you read the report you will find that regard has been had to all
matters that you have feared may have escaped attention.
17251. Mr. Abigail.'] You have stated that you are opposed to the Chinese becoming a portion of this
community ; — have you thought out any scheme by which we could cure the evil, of their presence in the
community ? Well, I was delighted when the Eestriction Act was introduced, but I think the matter of
sufficient gravity to go further than that. I would be favourable to giving them a fair time to quit tho
country altogether. _ I would not expel them straight away. I think, at any rate, they should have at
least five years' notice. They should be given a sufficient time to wind up their affairs, so that their
interests would be considered in connection with investments made in the country.
17252. Do you not know that they are leaving the country very fast as it is ? I read that twelve months
ago they were leaving rapidly, but since then I believe the exodus has been much slower.
17253. Then you do not know that during the last few years their numbers in the Colony have been
reduced by thousands ? No ; I was not aware that they were leaving the country, so rapidly as that.
17254. I may inform you that it is so, and the statistics will prove it ? That, of course, alters the case to
some extent.
[The witness withdrew.]
CHINESE
CHINESE GAMBLING- COMMISSION — DEPUTATION TO THE MAYOR OF SYDNEY. 473
DEPUTATION TO THE MAYOR OF SYDNEY.
A deputation introduced by Mr. Ninian Melville, M.P., and Mr. S. E. Lees, M.P., and comprising Messrs.
Cutler, Beard, and Saunders, representing the United Furniture Trades Society, and Mr. Sloane, representing
the b-ardeners Union, waited upon the Mayor of Sydney (Mr. Alderman Manning, J.P.) , on the December,
tor the purpose of directing his attention to the conditions under which the European cabinet-makers and
gardeners of bydney and the neighbourhood were obliged to compete with the Chinese. As the question
was oi interest to the Chinese Gambling Inquiry Commission, the Mayor invited the attendance of the
members of the Commission.
rri, -u^r' I,6eS' -^P-' sail*: * ^ave mucn pleasure in introducing this deputation to you, Mr. Mayor.
± hey have some matters to bring before you, and if you will hear what Mr. Cutler has to say, he will
explain the question from the cabinet-makers' point of view.'
Mr. Melville, M.P. : I would like, Mr. Mayor, to say this, that it is well known what anxiety I
have evinced, and what action I have taken in this matter for years past ; and, in the interest of common
humanity, apart from political feelings, I would impress upon you the necessity for taking such as these
gentlemen will represent to you as advisable. I regret that we have in our midst a class of persons who,
by their mode of living^ have made themselves so objectionable, persons who take such license that, whilst
we believe in absolute freedom for every human being, yet, for the protection of the community at large,
it is necessary to place some restriction upon them, and these gentlemen are of opinion that the'Municipal
Council of Sydney might put certain by-laws in force that would conduce very much to their relief as
industrious tradesmen.
The Mayor.] I understand that this deputation waits upon me in my capacity as Mayor of the
City, and it is within their knowledge that I am also President of the Eoyal Commission appointed to
take into consideration various matters in connection with the Chinese, and particularly to take into con-
sideration the moral, social, and sanitary conditions under which they live in Sydney and its neighbour-
hood. I presumed that the deputation desired to wait upon me as Mayor, but I thought it well, seeing
that I had associated with me, under the Seal of the Queen, some gentlemen appointed to make this
inquiry, that they should be present, although, perhaps, they will not be called upon to speak, they will be
glad to listen to any observations that you, gentlemen, have to make.
Mr. Cutler.] As a representative of the United Furniture Trades Society, and almost a native of
the city, I regret that the circumstances of Chinese competition compel me to work in such a manner
as I have to do for my living. "We are not here to complain that the officers of the Council do not do
their duty. We have come to ask you, sir, as Mayor, to see whether there are not some by-laws, which it
would be possible to put in force to make the Chinese live as they should live. We are given to under-
stand that there is a by-law in existence that would reach this class of persons, but that it has not yet received
the 'sanction of Parliament. Whether that is so however, I do not know.
The Mayor.] You must definitely state what condition of Chinese life you are complaining of. I
take it that you are now alluding to overcrowding.
Mr. Cutler.] To overcrowding and insanitation.
The Mayor.] You had better separate the two. At any rate you are now speaking on the question
of overcrowding.
Mr. Cutler.] In the first place they are overcrowded. There is no getting away from it. We
are not going to make any charge about any street or house, but anyone who goes through G-oulburn-street,
Wexford-street, or other parts of the city will admit at once that the Chinese do overcrowd. Leprosy
has arisen in many cases in the Chinese quarters. In several instances the cabinet-makers eat, live, and
sleep in their work-shops. The vegetable hawkers have the vegetables that they sell to Europeans stored
in the places where they sleep. There are something like 262 Chinese boarding-houses in the city, and
gentlemen who are well capable of forming an opinion say that these places are overcrowded and very
dirty. I have not been through very many myself, but from those I have been through I should say that
they are none too clean. Another complaint we wish to make about them is that they work on a Sunday.
On Sundays they are engaged in sand-papering, and polishing, and other descriptions of work that make
no row. We thought that the City Council was the proper authority to appeal to in the first instance,
and if our appeal to you is successful we shall then go to the suburban councils. I have spoken on the
matter to the Mayor of Botany who is a fellow-worker at our trade, and he has asked me to bring it
before the suburban municipalities ; and I do not see why the City Council should not deal with it also.
I know that the Nuisance-Inspector often comes to my place, and I do not see why the houses of the
Chinese who do not pay as much to the revenue as I do, should not quite as carefully inspected.
There are many who say that, as they are taxed when first they come to the Colony, we are very unfair to
ask that they be further harassed ; but if you knew the extent to which cabinet-makers are suffering
from them in the way of unfair competition you would not be surprised. On our books there are something
like eighty-five out of work, and yet the shops are full of Chinese furniture. We therefore appeal, in the
first instance, to the Citv Council to do what they can to make the people live on similar lines' to
ourselves. If they only d'id that, it would render their competition much fairer and more reasonable.
Mr. Sloane.] On behalf of the gardeners who are very seriously affected by the Chinese, I should
like to say that we have a very hard job to compete against them. They work from daylight in the
morning until dark at night, andhalf a day on Sunday. In the vegetable line, therefore, we are completely
done out of it. They have already taken the trade out of our hands, and now they are making inroads
on the business of the florists. I can state as a fact that there are 225 Chinese lodging-houses in the
city at the present time, and that they are insanitary and overcrowded.
272—3 O Mr-
471 CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — DEPUTATION TO THE MATOE OF SYDNEY.
Mr. Saunders.] I cannot add much to what our Secretary has already said about Chinese work in
furniture line. It has been snid that the Chinese are employed in making only the commonest kind of
furniture, and that therefore, the injury they do is very slight indeed, but that is a very erroneous conception ;
as the better class of work is done by contract, when they have no contracts iii hand, the large firms
which have a good deal of machinery are almost idle, because the Chinese do the commoner class of work
which they might otherwise do. The evil, as affecting the European furniture makers, is really of a most
serious nature.
The Mayor.] What class of furniture do you say that the Chinese, by monopolising, take from
you ? Mr. Saunders : The commonest class chiefly — ordinary wash-stands, dressing-tables, and so on.
The Mayor.] Well, I think it was fortunate that when you laid this question before me the
gentlemen who have been commissioned with me to inquire into the whole question of the Chinese in
Sydney and its suburbs, their manners and customs, should have been present. Some of the things that
you complain of have been brought under our notice already. We have made our inspection of many of
the Chinese habitations in the city and suburbs, and, as Mr. Abigail will tell you, I have already taken
some action in regard to them. There is no doubt but that a very close inspection will be necessary to
insure proper sanitation among the Chinese habitations of the city and suburbs. I have seen myself that
they have adopted the plan of building in the yards connected with their houses, and converting it into
a temporary kitchen. Indeed, they go so far as to cook their food on a roaring fire right alongside their
closets ; and, of course, in consequence of that a serious nuisance arises in the premises. Closely affected with
the question of sanitation is the manner in which the Chinese herd together in such numbers in their houses.
Now, L would like to say, with regard to that question, that there is no Common Lodging-house Act in
existence, but I am quite sure that there should be, and that legislation should be passed at once affect-
ing not only the habitations of the Chinese, but also the habitations of Europeans, when those habitations
are used as common lodging-houses. Sb that you will see that, as far as the lodgement of the Chinese is
concerned, I am entirely with you, but I am utterly powerless in the matter. As far as the sanitary
question is concerned the Council can do something, and will do it without delay ; but that will not effect
what you want. Tou will require something in the form of legislation to make all these foreigners
amongst us live a proper and healthy life — a life such as our native population are accustomed to lead,
and a life such as every man whom God made should lead. This custom of herding together — so many
in one room, is greatly to be deplored,' and the Chinese are the greatest sinners in that respect. They are
utterly heedless of ventilation and comfort ; and it must be a great hardship upon Australian workmen
to have to compete with men living under such conditions. I know also that they have a custom of
introducing into their crowded houses the vegetables that are subsequently hawked about the city for
sale amongst Europeans, but that also is a custom that 1 am powerless to deal with.
Mr. Zees.] The deputation probably know that all this gardening is done outside the city.
The Mayor.] The City Council has under consideration a new charter for the City of Sydney, and
the whole of the detail of the Bill has already been agreed upon. There are only a few more questions
to consider in connection with it and then it will be sent on to Parliament. We have undertaken to
make large laws for every conceivable thing, and when the measure is passed we shall be able to give
the very relief that you seek and that we are not able to give you now, that is with regard to the question
of overcrowding. Of course, with regard to the questions of Sunday work, the general hours of work and
so on, a body like the City Council cannot be expected to deal with that. They will have to be covered
by legislation. Already Parliament is considering a Bill to reduce the hours of labour, but it is quite
impossible for me to hold out any hope of our being entrusted with such a. power. The scope of the
Chinese Gambling Inquiry Commission is so wide however, tljat.it will embrace in its report the whole
of the questions that you have brought forward to-day ; and, at the end of the next year, I hope that the
Council will have the power of dealing with the overcrowding of which you complain.
Mr. Zees.] On behalf of the deputation I thank you, Mr. Mayor, for the courtesy you have shown.
Of course with regard to the question of Sunday working nothing can be done by your Council.
..The Mayor.] I may tell you that in the course of our investigation we have been informed that
the Chinese do not work on Sundays to any extent. Of course you say that they do.
Mr. Carter.] .Yes.
The Mayor.] Then I think the police could assist you there. Do not you know that the police
have raided the Chinese gardeners at Waterloo and punished them for Sunday working? However, that
is a matter upon which you had better communicate to the Inspector-General.
Mr. Sloane.] We do not complain about the Chinese alone, but also about the Italians.
The Mayor.] Tes. I used the word foreigners in my reply because I had the Italians as well as
the Chinese in my mind.
[The deputation then withdrew.]
VISITS
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — VISITS OF INSPECTION. 475
VISITS OF INSPECTION.
Chinese residences, &c, visited by the Commission in George-street North and neighbourhood, on
August 27.
No. 40, Little Essex-street— A Chinese boarding-house in which there were forty bunks, all of
them occupying an absurdly small space and divided by matchwood partitions from each other. A cellar
beneath was occupied by a Chinaman and a European woman. The entire premises, considered by the
Commission unnt tor human habitation were immediately condemned for destruction by the Mayor.
_ bun bam Kee s.— Notorious gambling-house in George-street North. Eive Europeans caught
playing ian-tan.
The Commission also visited Chinese quarters in Hanson's Buildings, Queen-street and Queen's-
place. ° - .
Chinese residences, &c, in Goulburn-street and neighbourhood, visited by the Commission, on 29th
August, 1891.
Several houses were inspected in Goulburn-street East and West, Pitt-street, Campbell-street,
Wexford-street, Eobertson's-lane, Sussex-street, and Victoria-place. A few Chinamen were discovered ia
the act of smoking opium, but whilst gambling implements were found in many of the houses no games
were seen m progress. A boarding-house known as Eobertson's coach factory in Eobertson's-lane, and
now occupied by Chinamen, is described in the report of a subsequent inspection.
Chinese residences in Lower .George-street visited by the Commission on Tuesday, 24 November, 1891.
Messrs. On Chong & Co. — An exceedingly well-kept house.
No. 179, Bow Sing Tong. — Front premises occupied as a medicine shop, but no medicine in stock;
fan-tan table in room behind, from which a narrow passage gives access to three other houses ; a store-
room, a bed-room, reeking with dampness, devoid of ventilation, and containing two beds, also a "W.C. and
a lottery-bank ; as clean as such premises could well be.
Sun Sam Kee. — Strongly barricaded doors between front shop and rear rooms, containing fan-tan
tables ; exit through three doors to Queen-street ; escape across the roof in various directions for gamblers
in case of surprise. The entire house presents the appearance of a rabbit warren ; upstairs windows
strongly barred ; premises clean. '
Han Kee — Cookshop, boarding-house, and gambling-den ; eight boarders in the house at present.
There have been as many as twenty-five ; five box-like bedrooms about 8 feet square walled off like dungeons
from the cellar, which is itself dark and unventilated except for a door leading into a court-yard, closed
when the Commission were there. Three of these bedrooms are each occupied by a Chinaman, who pays
2s. a week for the accommodation and finds himself. Upstairs a European was found smoking opium in
company with a Chinaman. The proprietor admitted selling about £4 worth of opium per week. He has
been carrying on an illicit trade in opium for twenty years. The down-stairs bedrooms are utterly unfit
for human occupation. House fairly clean.
Pun Nun. — Cookshop, boarding-house and gambling-den. Here the Commissioners saw the account
books, implements, <fcc, of five gambling syndicates. Premises barred and barricaded to frustrate police
supervision; apparently clean. Notice in front shop, "5. (marks pak-ah-pu) Is.; 6. 9s.; 7. £3 15s.; 8. £21;
9. £37 10s. ; 10. £75 10s.
Chinese residences in the neighbourhood of Wexford-street, visited by the Commission on
the 25th November, 1891.
No. 45, Wexford-street. — House occupied by Chinese vegetable hawkers; vegetables of all des-
cription thrown under a bench a few feet only from a W.C. Two small bedrooms, each containing two
beds. Clean.
No. 48, Wexford-street. — Gambling-house and lottery-banks; scrupulously clean; Twenty-two
banks drawn every day.,
No. 34, Wexford-street. — Inhabited by a Chinaman and a half-caste Maori woman. The Chinaman
was suffering from a wound in the head which he said was inflicted by Ah Man, a Chinese informer,
because he was not allowed to participate in a game of dominoes.
No. 66, Wexford-street. — Kept by a European woman for a Chinaman named Jimmy Hung Tow,
with whom she cohabits ; clean and even well-furnished.
No. 17, Eoster-street. — House of illfame kept for Chinese ; clean.
No. 19, Foster-street. — Kept by two European girls — Nelly and Euby— for Chinamen named
Willie Ah Sing and George Mong How, with whom they have lived continuously for six and five years
respectively ; house fairly clean.
No. 6, Poster-street. — European woman living with a Chinaman ; house clean.
No! 29, Stephen-street. — Twelve Chinamen inside several of them smoking opium.
No. 25,' Stephen-street.— Occupied by a white girl and a Chinaman named Ah Hung ; four China-
men smoking onium in a room up stairs ; rent 8s. a week.
No. 3, Exeter-place. — Adelaide found on a couch in company with a Chinaman for whom
she was preparing opium. . ,
Nos. 12, 16, 20, Exeter-place.— Houses kept by European women for Chmamen ; clean and even
tastefully furnished. , .
No 44 Campbell-street— Tee Chin— This place is filthy and contains thirty beds ; the premises are
old, dirty, and dilapidated, and smell bad. Eit only for condemnation. In this place in a locked room
the Commissioners found a lottery -bank in full swing ; rent, £1 a week.
No. 36, Campbell-street.— Gong War— A large three-story place, fairly clean ; 15 lodgers who pay
2s. a week and 8d. per meal. Smell from kitchen very bad ; rent, £1 lis. per week.
No. 10 and 12, Eobertson's-lane.— Lodging-houses ; clean ; from G to 10 boarders regularly stay
here ;- beds 6d. per night. Gambling-tables in both houses. Eobertson s-lane.
476 CHINESE OAMBLING COMMISSION — VISITS OF INSPECTION.
Robertson's-lane. — Sun Kwun Fong — A large lodging-house, previously visited by the Commission
at night ; by daylight it presented a filthy appearance. Beds were found in the following numbers in
various rooms:— 1st partition, 8 beds; 2nd partition, 9 beds; 3rd partition, 4 beds; 4th partition, 5
beds ; 5th partition, 6 beds ; 6th partition, 4 beds ; 7th partition, 3 beds ; Sth partition, 3 beds ; 42 beds
in all. Opium-smoking was carried m in one of these apartments.
No. 427, Pitt-street South.— Fook On— Cook-shop and lodging-house; clean, papered, and white-
washed; rent, £1 a week.
Chinese residences, &c., in Retreat-street and neighbourhood of Alexandria, visited by Commissioners on
Thursday, November 26th.
(1) A number of Chinamen at fan-tan ; money (a few shillings) on the table ; opium-smoking ;
premises clean.
(2) Fan-tan table ; opium-smoking; rent, 15s. a week.
(3) Fan-tan table ; opium-smoking ; fairly clean.
(4) Lottery-bank, with bales of Pak-ah-pu tickets, imported from China ; fairly clean.
(5) Fan-tan table ; opium-smoking ; fairly clean.
(6) A terrace of one-story houses, at present untenanted, but which have been in the occupation of
Chinamen, all in a shockingly dilapidated condition.
(7) Chinese store, well stocked, and very clean.
(8) Caught a number of Chinamen in the act of playing fan-tan ; £2 7s. 6d. on the table ; lottery-
bank upstairs ; opium-smoking. Chung Lum, landlord ; clean.
(9) Fan-tan den ; lottery-bank; opium-smoking; fairly clean.
(10) Fan-tan; lottery-bank, and opium-den.
(11) Fan-tan ; lottery-bank, and opium-den.
Huts at the end of Retreat-street. — The Commission visited and inspected the interior of twenty-
five huts at the further end o£ Retreat-street, all occupied by Chinamen. The tenants, some of whom are
rag-gatherers, others cabinet-makers, vegetable hawkers, and market gardeners, pay weekly rentals of
from Is. 6d. to 5s. per week. The accommodation provided by these shanties beggars description. All
of them are constructed of wood ; many consist of one compartment only ; some are devoid of any kind
of flooring ; in others, small bedrooms have been partitioned off from the rest of the ill-covered space, and
the bedrooms thus constructed are in most cases quite innocent of ventilation. Fruit and vegetables
were, in several instances, found on the floor of the rooms in which the occupants eat, smoke, and sleep,
and, here and there, heaps of produce stored in that fashion were not even protected by any sort of
covering. The upper portion of the interior of these shanties was festooned with cobwebs. Viewed as a
whole, the nest of huts bear more resemblance to an Arab town on the outskirts of an Egyptian city than
to anything in Australia to which it would be possible to compare it.
A large Chinese store and butcher's shop, in Botany Road, inspected by the Commission, bore a
striking contrast to the habitations referred to above.
Residences, &c., in Goulburn-street visited by the Commission on November 27th, 1891: — ■
No. 50. Sun Tong Chong. — A Chinese cookshop and lodging-house. The shop is fairly clean, but
the yard was covered with iron, and in a space of about 10 feet x 12 feet were the kitchen and w.-c. The
whole of the cooking is done in this enclosure, and the odour arising therefrom was far from pleasant.
In this house was found a fan-tan table and an agency for lottery. Sleeping accommodation bad ;
rent, £2 5s. per week.
No. 52. Sun Chong Kee. — Premises similar to above, only the space used for the kitchen was
smaller. Here were found about thirteen Chinamen having their meals and an elderly European opium-
smoker. In this house also there was a fan-tan table and a lottery agency. Upstairs several badly-
ventilated and ill-smelling rooms used for casual opium-smokers. Rent, £2 10s.
Four small tenements down the lane between Nos. 54 and 56, Goulburn-street. — In each place
(with the exception of one) there were rows of beds used for casual opium-smokers. The houses were
fairly clean, but bore the unmistakable odour of opium. In one place an habitual English opium-
smoker was interrogated by the President, and in the course of conversation he stated that he had been
a smoker since he was 1 1 years of age, and had acquired the habit amongst the Chinese in Adelaide. In
au upstairs attic the Vice-President interrogated (through the interpreter) an inveterate smoker, who
acknowledged that he used as much as 18s. worth of opium per week; his calling was that of a
vegetable hawker, and the whole of his earnings went in opium. The next premises were occupied by a
Chinese vegetable hawker, whose place was scrupulously clean and neat. He stated that he made a very
fair living. He had cohabited for over two years with a white woman who had left him, but still pays
him weekly visits. No gambling in either of these houses.
No. 56. Goon Hing. — A celebrated gambling-house. In the front portion was the usual lottery
agency, and in a small compartment adjoining the shop were two filthy opium-beds. Fan-tan table in an
underground cellar ; kitchen clean ; sleeping apartments upstairs containing in all sixteen beds.
No. 58. Sun Quong Hing. — A clean general store, well ventilated.
No. 60. A Chinese gambling-house. — Lottery agency in front, fan-tan table in rear. The yard was
covered-in with iron ; the kitchen and w.c. enclosed together. Two rooms upstairs reeking with opium,
and lying upon the beds were six Chinamen in different states of stupefaction. One room was locked ;
the President requested that it should be opened ;■ occupants said that it was only a writing-room ; upon
being opened it was found to be a lottery-bank in readiness for operations.
No. 62. A house similar to the last. — Lottery agency in front, fan-tan table at back. Sanitary
arrangements bad. This house had an exit by two or three means at the back, and was strongly barri-
caded in and out with thick pieces of timber and iron bars. Upstairs several dirty rooms with opium
utensils.
No. 411. Hop Lee, in Pitt-street, near the corner of Goulburn-street. — A large two-storey
house. Lottery in front, fan-tan table at back. Large yard, fairly clean : kitchen ; upstairs lodging
department fairly clean. Over the door leading into the gambling-room, in bold English capitals the
word " Private." No. 68.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION — VISITS OF INSHECTIOK. 477
artiShS0' v8' Goulburn-s^eet-A large two-storey place. No gambling ; clean yard, and kitchen
aetacnea. .pair accommodation for lodgers upstairs.
No. 89. Lee On— Gambling-house.
»on ,1-5p'rq9?iG?UlbUrn"streeVn?-1"tan and R^-^-P11- Lottery bank being drawn when Commis-
premises ! Be Chlnamen °™>king opium. Cabinet-maker's shop at the rear of the
™>wN°'p87" ?oar^ing-house- Fan-tan, pak-ah-pu, and opium den. Four boarders in the house at
present. Jrromises clean.
m„,,Nof b9" Boarding-house. Pan-tan, pak-ah-pu, and opium den. Boarders in the house ; accom-
modation tor many more ; clean.
No. SI. Fan-tan and opium den. Sanitation fair.
2°" 1%' £^nese S*°re' of ^hich ,tte ProPrietor is a Salvation Army captain. House well kept.
JNo. 77. Chinese store, well stocked, and in good order.
No. (59. Boarding-house. Opium smoked with apparent freedom ; clean.
JNo. 51. I an- tan and pak-ah-pu played here.
Chinese Gardens, &c, visited by Commission at Botany on December the 1st.
-ur llrS,fS Lee and Party— This firm. comprising seven partners with equal shares, lease 25 acres from
Mr. Wallace at a yearly rental of £150. The land is situated beyond the Sir Joseph Banks Hotel. Nine
acres are under cultivation ; the rest is uncleared. The men commence work at 5 o'clock in the morning
and work on till dark. Five men are employed in the actual work of gardening and two are engaged in
carting the vegetables to market. They are all gardeners from their youth upwards. They stated that it
takes three months to get the virgin bush into arrable condition, and in another three months it will yield
good crop- ot vegetables. After paying all expenses each partner appropriates between £60 and £70 as
his share of the profits on one "year's labour. House accommodation poor and only moderately clean.
Loo Low and parties— Forty acres under cultivation leased from Mr Geo." Hill for a term of ten
years, without rental for the first live years and at an annual rental of £300 for the balance of the term.
The lease has three years yet to run. The Chinamen cultivating this land are divided into five parties,
each party occupying a dwelling erected by the landowner, the rent of which is included in the terms
of the lease. The men begin work at 4 o'clock in the morning and continue until 7 and occasionally 8
and 9 o'clock at night. Those go to the market who can speak Euglish best. Credit given to a few
regular customers to the extent of £2 or £3 per week. Each partner saves about £1 a week. The
dwellings, though fairly respectable structures, are ill ventilated and neither clean nor tidy in their
internal arrangements. In one or two instances the stables were only partially partitioned off from the
living and sleeping rooms. Offal, smelling very offensively, and tubs containing human urine in close
proximity to the house.
Loo Hope and party (including six partners and one employe) — Lease 7 acres from Mr. Geddes.
The lease is for ten years and has five years yet to run. The yearly rental is £70. Each partner saves
about £30 a year. In this instance the tubs of urine were only a few feet away from the kitchen window
which chanced to be almost the only open window seen by the Commission in any of these dwellings.
Generally the utmost ingenuity is exhibited in the exclusion of air from any apartment and particularly
from the bedrooms.
Tee Lee — This man keeps a Chinese boarding-house in the Botany Boad, patronised chiefly
by vegetable gardeners. The Commission were surprised to discover a lottery bank in the course of con-
struction in a room hired for the purpose by Hip War, a well-to-do storekeeper at Alexandria, who, in
apparent good faith had previously assured them that he was in no way connected with gambling.
Chinese residences in Cambridge, Harrington, and Queen Streets, and the Suez Canal, visited by the
Commission on December 2nd.
. No. 2G, Cambridge-street — Kept by two European women, Paulina and Minnie , for
Chinamen. House fairly clean.
No. 19, Harriugton-street — Kept by a European woman, Maud , for a Chinamen. House
clean.
No. 9, Suez Canal — Rent,_12s. 6d. a week, considered by the Commission to be excessive. House
clean, but in a shocking state of repair. Mrs. Ah Hong resides here with her husband.
Suez Canal — Kept by Mrs. Ah Dye for her husband, a Chinaman. This and the adjoining
property is in a dilapidated condition.
No. 46, Harrington-street — An opium den and lottery agency. The opium is sold by Ah Chee,
who deals illegally in small quantities.
Kos. 1 2, 3, and 4, Queen-street — Inhabited principally by Chinese hawkers. The drains are in
the kitchens, 'and there is no water laid on, and no w.c. (Descrbied in the report of Dr. Ashburton
Thompson ) .
Nos. 11, 12, 13, and 14, Queen-street — Inhabited by Chinese hawkers, &c. No means tor deposit-
ing the slops, no water laid on, and no w.c. (Described in the report of Dr. Ashburton Thompson.)
No. 5, Queen -street— A Chinese family comprising a husband, two wives (Chinese women), and
four children reside here.
Chinese cabinet-makers visited by the Commission on Thursday, December 3rd.
Sun°- Lung Shing, Elizabeth-street— The firm comprises three brothers, and employs twenty-two
men who receive from £1 to 25s. a week, and work ten hours a day. The employes live on the premises,
and the sleeping apartments are clean and healthy. No opium smoking or gambling.
APPENDIX.
478
APPETODIX.
CHINESE GAMBLING COMMISSION.
APPENDIX.
A.
Houses occupied by Chinese in Lower George-street, and the nature of the occupations and pursuits of tJie tenants.
No. 126. Tee Sang Loong & Co. , wholesale and retail Chinese importers. - This is a very old-established firm, having
head-quarters in Hong-Kong, and are in good repute with both English and Chinese ; very respectable. One resident
partner here, named Wee Koah.
No. 152. Good Kee.— This is a small retail fruit, tobacco, and lodging-house. Opium is smoked here.
No. 164. Doung Lee.— This is a pure and simple gambling-house and lodging-house. It is one of the worst in Lower
George-street for both Euvopeans and English-Chinese. Underground is a cook-shop. Gambling here at all hours. The
place is very difficult to get into. It is kept by sindicates. The property, belongs to Way Kee, who holds that block of
three houses on a twenty-one years' building lease.
No. 166. Han Kee.— This house is also of a simikr description as 164, where gambling and opium-smoking is carried
on, and1 is the property of Way Kee. The proprietor is. a very well-known! old Chimaman, who bears a very good name
amongst English, Chinese, and blacks, as being one of the most charitable and kind-hearted of Chinamen in Australia. In
fact, nearly all he earns is given in charity. He is an old identity, ami has been living in Sydney for many years, and is
highly respected.
No. 168. Way Kee.— This is a very old-established firm, of many years standing, and is one of the wealthiest Chinese
firms in Sydney. The proprietor is a very miserable old Chinaman, named Way Kee, whb is head of the firm, and has his
Chinese wife living with him. He owns the premises by 21-years lease he lives upon, besides the two adjoining houses.
This man has been connected with several Chinese movements and societies, and is.. the treasurer to several funds belonging
to the Defence Association. He is what is called the head man of the Doong--Goon community, and we believe he is con -
suited upon all particular Chinese matters.
Nos. 178-180. Pun Num. — This is a gambling-house pure and simple. Lottery in front, gambling at back, and cooking
shop down stairs.
No. 192. Ah Toy. — This is a very old-established Chinese cabinet-making andcarpenters' business. The proprietor is Ah
Toy, who employs over forty workmen. He does a large trade, and is well trusted by Europeans. He is fairly well off,
but has a very bad drunken Englishwoman as a wife.
"No. 198. Tiy Wor Tong ) The whole of these four houses are pure gambling-houses, and are all belonging to one
No. 196. Tong Tiy (syndicate. Nothing but gambling and opium-smoking is carried on here.' The front
No. 194. Goon Sing ( part of the shops bear semblance to fruit and tobacco shops. Emglish and Chinese both
No. 250 J. Sing Lee 'frequent these houses. The property belongs to Beale & Co., George-street. These
houses are kept by Doong-Goon men. . !
No. 202. Quan Yee )
No. 204. Goon Yick [ The whole of these four are exactly the same as the foregoing, and same owners. These
No. 206. Hing Lee ( houses are kept by See Yip men.
No. 208. Wing Sing Lee J
No. 220. Kwong Hing \
No. 222. Sun on Lee [-These three are all bad gambling-houses, for both Europeans and Chinese.
No. 224. Tone Lee J
No. 226. This house is where the late raid was made, and is one of the worst in Lower George-street. The proprietor
is a Chinaman, Moy Ping, a clean-looking, respectable, educated Chinaman. This man is the proprietor, and he and his
brother run the concern. He is reputed to have made much monej', and is looked upon as one of the lucky ones. He is
married to a white woman, who is one of the lower-class women, and is considered very bad. Chinamen, Englishmen, boys,
youths, and blackfellows frequent it. Lottery tickets are sold in the front shop.
No. 79. Tin War & Co. — One of the oldest-established merchants in Sydney, highly-respected by both English and
Chinese. The resident partner is Mr. Ng Quoy. Is well up in English and Chinese. He resides with his Chinese wife-— a
very nice lady — and Chinese children, upon the premises. Everything is' clean, tidy; and neat. They do a very large
business, and are Chinese agents for E. & A. Co. 's steamers, where Chinese passengers book for Hong-Kong.
No. 85. Yee Tick. — Another old-established Chinese firm, but not so large ; very respectable. ^The resident partner has
his wife and children on the premises. Everything very clean.
No. 171. S. C. S. Dockson & Co. — Very respectable fancy goods firm ; moderate business ; clean and respectable.
No. 173. Sun Sam War. — A very large gambling concern; lottery in front; fan-tan behind. This place, day and night,.
is always full of Europeans ; some of the worst classes frequent here. It has a very bad name. They pay a high rent.
It is run by a syndicate.
No. 175. SamChoy.— Old-establishedfancy goods importer. Longstanding. Present partners arein goodrepute. No
gambling of any kind; ■ . ... -
No. 177. Hook War Tong. —The front part of this is carried on as a Chinese chemist shop. Very little gambling at the
back, and then only amongst themselves.
No. 179. Bow Sing Tong. — Exactly the same as 177, in every particular.
No. 181. Sun Sam Kee. — This place is about the largest and worst gambling-house in Lower George-street; the front
resembles a shop, but in the extreme back, and very difficult to get into, is the gambling part, frequented most by Europeans
of all classes. The proprietor's name is Sam Tin, a very respectable Chinaman. He is married to a European woman. It
is stated that this man is one of the luckiest of Chinamen,- and has made- a considerable amount of money, which he has
wisely invested. This place is so well adapted for giving signals; that the occupants inside escape on the shortest notice.
No. 185. Sue Hing Loong. — A very highly respected Chinese fancy goods importing firm, lately dissolved. Every-
thing is clean, healthy- looking, and tidy. They do a fair amount of business.
No. 187. Sam War. — A small, clean, general, and Chinese goods' firm. These people trade only respectable ; newly
started ; lately interested in Sam Choy.
No.
APPENDIX. 479
wLn fJ^l189-'^9!1'- 9? •Tiok and Lee;— A^61"7 resPectaUe clean firm, doing a very fair trade. The resident partner, Mr. Lee,
Thl T^™ Wltn'"s Phlnese w,fe and children, is a very good English and Chinese scholar, and is highly esteemed amongst
tne European and Chinese. He is a very intellectual man and well read. He is a great opponent to the opium trade.
tL™Wf «" 19^' ?°? ^ong.-^ moderate business is done here in Chinese and English goods. Very respectable firm ; and
tnougnt a good deal of amongst their own countrymen. Only business is carried on here.
TT;r,ii' ;?i°'' 195' ,Kwong Hing Chong;— This is also a very fair Chinese general store, doing a fair trade, but the partner, May
±ling is known to.mix himself up with gambling-syndicates, and is known and believed to be banker for several 'of them.
inisiirm are also bankers for one of the defence funds. This firm is always consulted in any matter where fights or dis-
putes arising out of gambling or other matters. °
No. 197. Sun Joe Lee. —This place carries on lottery in front and small gambling behind. There are no Europeans come
here for gambling, only for the lottery-tickets. There is a little drapery hung in the front windows.
,,.. No. 223. On Chong and Co.— The oldest and wealthiest firm in Australia, and the most respected. All the partners are
honest and independent men. The resident partner, Mr. On, is well known to everyone. The manager, Mr. Tee Hing, is
a very straight, upright,, honest man, and is. foremost in every good movement.
nv- " ^l22?' ?un C.um Tiy-— Another old and wealthy firm, well respected, and in good repute. All the partners are in
Onina. h ine. business is now being wpund up by a nephew of one of the partners, who holds power of attorney from China.
1 1 1 '?i No. i227. Sun Hing Jang.— Old respected firm of importers, doing fair trade. One of the partners is known to be con-
nected .with some of the gambling-concerns, and acts banker for several of them. The other members of the firm keep aloof.
bo that.only one of the partners is thus connected.
I ■■ No. 229. King Hing.— Very respectable grocery and fancy goods' store, doing good trade. Is very clean and respec-
table. No gambling of any kind here.
,. (,(,, , All the other tenements in Queen-street, and Argyle-plaee, and other places, are only small private places not worth
mention.
B.
Souses occupied by Chinese in Goulburn-street, Src.
No. 51. Kwong Quen. — This house is carried on by a syndicate of Chinese, and the principal gambling is carried
on in the back. The front is used for selling lottery-tickets. A great number of European young men visit this place.
No. 53. Same syndicate, and same business.
No. 55. This is the worst house of the three. It is more frequented than the other two by Englishmen and black-
fellows ; name is Kwong Kee.
No. 56. Goon Hing, or Soy Hing. — This is a large three-story house. Three syndicates carry on this place, who rent
it from the lessee. The lessee at present is a well-established merchant named Tiy Sang Loong & Co., 71 Goulburn-street.
This firm also act as bankers for the syndicate. The proprietor of the building is a Mr. M 'Donald, living at Belmore, near
Canterbury. The heaviest gambling in Goulburn-street is carried on here at all hours.
No. 60. Yuen Lee )
No. 62. Tiy War > Also gambling-houses, but only amongst their own people.
No. 64. War Hing )
No. 52. Chong-Kee. — Is also a gambling-house, but is carried on only amongst themselves.
No. 69. Is also a gambling-house. This is a fairly bad place, and a good number of Europeans visit the place. The
name is Hang Kee.
The three respectable, reliable, and straightforward firms who carry on business in Goulburn-street, are —
No. 46. Hing Chong & Co. — Two brothers.
No. 54. Goong Ping & Co. — A company of three.
No. 73. Wing Hing Tiy — A branch of Yee Sang Loong, Lower George-street.
Robertson' s-lane.
There is a. very large building there kept by A Kow You Man. "This place is very large, and holds over 100 men,
nearly all gardeners and dealers. The sanitary condition is very bad.
Campbell-street.
No. 44. Yee Chin <| ,.,„„.,
No. 46. On War Lee [ The whole of these five places are gambling-houses, pure and simple, and are all visited
No. 48. Chuen Hing \ by Europeans and Chinese alike. In the front part of these shops the lottery- tickets are
No! 52! Sing Lee ' | sold, but behind the gambling is carried on very extensively.
No. 54. Chin Lee !
The only respectable storekeepers in Campbell-street are these three places named :— No. 50, Hank Hong & Co. ;
No. 56 Fook War ; Tiy On Wong & Co.,— very good. Nothing but business in general Chinese goods is done here.
Wexford-street.
The whole of the following are nothing but pure gambling-houses, and are frequented by both English and Chinese
to a very great extent.
No 51 Goon War Lee; No. 55, Wor Hing Lee; No. 57, Jack Lee; No. 54, Wong Sack; No. 53, Wor Sing
Lee • No. '49,' Tiy War On ; No. 47, Chong War ; No. 50, Ping Kee,— respectable storekeepers. Also, a few respectable
tradesmen, carpenters ; and Nos. 33, 35, 37, brothels.
Exeter Place.
Nos. 16, 18, 20, 22, Chinese brothels, informers, and very bad characters— Chinamen.
Robert Wong Lee Kum.— This man is greatly feared among the Chinamen. On several occasions he has had the
police put upon the gambling, notably last year. In consequence of his not being successful in getting a bribe, he laid,
informSion against several of the proprietors of the lottery bank, and was successful in getting them fined and convicted.
He resides in Wexford-street ; Sang Shing is his partner. He is also a Salvationist.
Long Pen, residing in Foster-street, with a coloured -woman. -This man has a very bad name amongst Chinese of
all classes fsln informer and extortioner of money. -This man is Hong Shang. This man xs a disturber.
CheangShow, residing at No. 20 Foster-street. This man lives by extortion and informing ; is well known to the
police ;. and has a very bad ill-kept house ; this man is Hong Shang.
Low Fat.— This man is at present in Melbourne.
Lin Man, Wexford-street ; Song Moon, Lower George-street.-These two men generally work together. ^
480
APPEKDIX.
Lin Man, some little time ago, was successful in getting a Chinese gardener at Cook's River fined heavily for supposed
sly-grog selling. It appears that the gardners there state he was seen coming quickly from their place of residence, and
then some little time after returned with a constable who searched the premises and found the grog ; the Chinese state he
placed it there. He is Hong Shang.
Soong Moon, last year, brought a charge against Goon Ping & Co., of Goulburn-street, for sly-grog selling, but the
case fell through. This man bears a very bad character ; is not known to do anything for a living, but lives by fraud ; and
he is Hong Shang.
Chas. Bennet, Brown. — Two European tailors. — These men are heavy opium -smokers, informers, and gamblers.
They successfully informed upon three Chinese firms in July last for selling opium without license. The Chinese were
fined £5 in each case, out of which they received half the fine. They live at Waterloo, but can be found when required.
Societies. — Koong Yee. Tong. This is an association with a present fixed fund at interest of about £2,000. The
directors or leading men are Way Kee, Kong Hing Chong, merchants, Lower George-street.
This society is formed and has for its objects the exhumation of all Chinese' bones that may be lying in the Colony.
These bones are taken up at different intervals and are carefully cleaned and packed, and are shipped home to the
different relatives in China. The directorate changes every year. The subscription is £1. Every Chinaman, whether a
resident or new arrival, must pay this, and while the funds are sufficient to carry on operations no further call is made.
Loong Yee Tong, or mutual defence association as against own people and Europeans. This society has two objects.
First, a fund of several hundreds of pounds is believed to stand in the name of Way Kee, Lower George-street, and is to
be used when directions are given by the leading head men as follows : — For protection against the law in cases where
arrests are made by the police of gamblers to pay fines (if small), solicitors' expenses, interpreters' expenses, and to engage
witnesses if necessary, or should the gambler prefer going to gaol in place of paying the fine, the sum of £1 per week is
paid to him when he comes out as wages. Or in other cases where trouble arises with Europeans, and should the Chinaman be
sent to gaol for a long sentence, then money is sent to his relatives in China, and a sum put by for him when released. In
extreme cases when the law steps in and capital punishment is the penalty, the following sums are apportioned, viz. :—
Should a Chinaman kill a European in self-defence, £100 to his relatives, and his bones sent home free. Should a
Chinaman be killed by a European, £200 to his relatives, and his bones sent back free.
The other object for which this association is formed is to keep a supply of coffins ever ready upon each China Mai1
Boat, in case of the death of a Chinaman at sea, his body will not be thrown overboard, but can be encased in the coffin and
carried home to his native land, or if coming on to Sydney, will be landed here. How the funds for this are collected are
as follows, viz. : In every gambling-house in the city the bankers or croupiers lay aside from Id. to 2d. in the Is. com-
mission out of the winnings of each game, so that the amounts at the week are pretty considerable. The present fund
stands at from £450 to £500. Should funds be short then every man registered is levied 5s. per head.
Ki Tong, or society to judge justly between one Chinaman and another. — This company is formed of the leading,
learned, and business Chinese, who meet together to settle disputes or claims of one Chinaman and another. Their verdict
goes by majority, and their decisions are always final.
Lottery-banks.— There are at present about fifteen of them with a capital of £300 each in Goulburn and Wexford -
streets alone. The shareholders are in all cases the proprietors of the gambling-houses. The funds are generally kept at
one of the merchants places.
c.
Supplementary List.
Houses occupied by Chinese in South Sydney.
Pitt-street South.
No. 411. Hop Lee. — A gambling-house and nothing more. Here gambling is carried on at all hours of the day, but
amongst the gardeners, pork-butchers, and hawkers, Chinamen only.
No. 413. Kwong Mow On. — A very large retail Chinese-goods shop, doing a fair trade, has branches in the country,
partners very respectable, no gambling carried on here. We believe one of the partners or employers is connected with
gambling.
No. 417. Tong You Jang. — A fair sized Chinese general store which supplies market-gardeners to a great extent ;
the resident partner is a very decent man. No gambling.
No. 419. Kwong Chong. — A pretty extensive Chinese general store, doing a good business. This place is made a
temporary kind of stopping place for Chinamen going to China. Underneath the store they have extensive stables which
they let to market-gardeners for their horses at 6d. per night.
No, 421. A large two-story building belonging to Kwong Chang, which is let out to numerous tenents as a lodging-
house. This place at time3 is full of Chinamen, and underneath the ground-floor a great number of lodgers dwell.
No. 431. Samson & Co. — A small general Chinese store, the proprietor, Samson, lives with a white woman who
belongs to a very good family, is well educated, and accomplished, but lately has gone to the bad. No opium or gambling.
No. 358, Pitt-street. Quan Lee. — A general Chinese store doing a fair trade with gardeners and others ; there are
three partners in this one, Ah Ping, who has his Chinese wife and children here, was at one time very much connected
with lottery banks and gambling-houses.
No. 32 and 34, Campbell-street. Tommy Lee. — Very respectable Christian Chinaman doing a very fair trade in
produce and potatoes, &o. Is known to be connected with many Christian movements.
No. 443, Pitt-street. Jack Sing. — A very extensive produce and potato store carried on by two Chinese, Jack and
Sing. Do very extensive retail trade with Chinese gardeners and others, but a very large number of Europeans patronise
them. They buy mostly for prompt cash and do a net cash trade ; very respectable, no gambling.
Nos. 445 and 447. These two houses are carried on by Yee Chung, who carries on also a very large retail produce
trade ; very hard working man up early and closes late ; very respectable, no gambling.
No. 447. Tiy Ping. — This is a very extensive board and lodging house, sometimes accommodating as many as thirty '
to forty men, principally gardeners. They also have a twenty-stall stable which is let out at Is. per night to the market-
gardeners, who put up their horses there three times a week ; the men pay 6d. a meal and 6d. for beds ; badly ventilated.
No gaming carried on.
Casthreagh-street.
Sun War Hop. — A very extensive cabinet-making establishment employing about twenty-six hands, Chinese,
including two English sawyers ; the proprietor, Yun Cum, has his Chinese wife and children living upon the premises.
He is a very hard working respectable man. Is in good credit with European firms ; several of the men smoke opium
upon the premises ; but no gambling of any kind. The proprietor is said to have considerable means.
No. 305. Yee Lee & Co. — One of the largest cabinet-making factories in town, at one time they employed over fifty
hands, at present about thirty hands. The proprietor is u, very shrewd, keen business man. Has his Chinese wife and
children upon the premises. This" building used to be E. and R. Bradford's old foundry. The proprietor has it upon a long
lease at a pretty high rental, the proprietor himself smokes opium very heavily, and also permits it to a great extent amongst
his men. The sleeping accommodation for the men is not to be commended, and the place is worth a visit.
No.
APPENDIX. 481
No. 307. Toy Lee. — A very extensive board and lodging house ; also stables. This place is much frequented by the
gardeners, and is always pretty full. At one time it belonged to Moy Ping's father who sold out ; no gambling at present
in the shape of fan-tau, only lottery.
No. 309. Gee War. — General Chinese store and stables doing a fair business amongst the gardeners. The property
belongs to Lord Sherbroke (Mr. Billyard, agent), no gambling of any kind here, but the proprietor is a very dirty man,
and has been fined upon several occasions for having very filthy premises.
No. 311. Ah Wah.— General Chinese store. This is carried on by two brothers who are very respectable men, and
pretty well known. They do a very extensive business in exporting to China old lead, brass, copper, horse-shoes, and
glass. No gambling of any kind, but the proprietor, Ah Wah is as well known amongst the private bars of Sydney as the
Town-hall clock ; in fact, all his spare time is spent there. This property also belongs to Lord Sherbroke.
No. 338. Quong Yee Choug.— A very large cookshop and eating-house. Chiefly accommodates gardeners and
hawkers. Does a very good trade, but the place inside and outside is kept very filthy. One of the partners Ah See has
two Chinese wives and children, but keeps them in a private house in Queen-street. The place is worth a visit. He is a
very superior scholar in Chinese,, and is also a very good English scholar, speaking and writing fluently.
Nos. 340-342. — Two private houses accommodating market gardeners. Ventilation is very bad and terribly over-
crowded.
No. 332. Tah Sing. — This house, though outwardly bearing the semblance of a general store and having a few
articles of English and Chinese merchandise, is, in fact, the head centre of the Goulburn-street and Wexford-street
gambling fraternity ; it is from this place all instructions are issued and other business transacted when trouble arises
in this quarter of the city. This firm are agents for fifteen lottery banks as well as being bankers for the fan-tan
proprietors. Here the money is lodged and kept, and drawn upon for gambling purposes during the day and night.
Although no fan-tan is actually carried on here, the place is crowded day and night by Europeans of all degrees, eagerly
producing lottery tickets, and waiting for results. This place was convicted about two years ago, and were fined £50 at
the lower Courts ; they appealed to the Supreme Court, but the conviction was sustained. This proceeding cost them an
immense amount of money, but it all came out of the funds gathered for defence purposes. The principal partner is Yuan
Tah, who has his two Chinese wives and children living on the rocks in great style. He is also senior partner in the large
cabinet-factory of Yee War & Co. , of Pyrmont, and is a man who would stand at nothing, the other partner in Tah Sing's
is Ah Sing, a sharp cunning customer. This firm is reputed very wealthy.
Chow Kum & Co. — One of the largest cabinet-factories in the colonies, opposite the Belmore Park. The premises
are newly erected by S. Hordern of Anthony Hordern's. This place is carried on by one man named Chow Kum. He
employs about forty hands, does an' extensive trade, and sends a great deal of stuff to the auction-rooms. He lives with a very
disreputable young Englishwoman, who smokes opium to a great degree. This Chow Kum is one of the greatest rascals in
the country, always has been, and now is largely connected with lottery banks and fan-tan houses, in which he has several
shares. He has been known to win large sums at lottery and fan-tan. He is a well-known figure at the gaming-tables at
night. At one time this man won a large sum at lottery (about twelve months ago) which saved him from the Bankruptcy
Court. This man is one of the head men of the secret society, and is known to have taken an active part in several of their
movements. He is a man of violent temper, and is greatly feared by the Chinamen, for one reason, and that is, he comes
from a village in Cantar reputed to be fighting men, and as there are at present in his employ, in Sydney, nearly a hundred of
these men who come from the same village as himself, they (that is, this party, of whom he is head, and always
consulted first) are greatly feared. If this man could be made to speak the truth, he would be one of the best men the
Commission could get.
No. 36. Hunt-street. War Hing. — A cabinet-factory carried on by three Chinamen. They employ twenty-two
hands do a very large trade, principally a country one, the accommodation and ventilation is very bad, one of the partners
lives with a very worthless white woman on the premises. Opium-smoking is indulged in here.
Lay Jong, Elizabeth-street South, near Devonshire-street.— A very large cabinet-factory, premises belonging to the
Hon. John Lucas. The business is owned by one man named Lo Kum, do a fair business, employ about fifteen hands, all
sleep on the premises, accommodation bad. Opium-smoking also indulged in here.
To the Chairman and Members of the Chinese Gambling Enquiry Commission,—
Gentlemen,— Inspector of Nuisances Office, Sydney, 22 September, 1891.
I have the honor to transmit for your information the accompanying returns, showing :
1st. The number and condition of Chinese dwellings, shops, &c, within the City of Sydney at the present date.
2nd. The number and names of Chinamen who have been prosecuted by the City Council from the year 1873 to
24 July, 1891, including also one case for the year 1870.
With regard to the former, it will be seen that in point of cleanliness there is now a marked difference in the state
of the dwellinirfrom that which obtained a few years back. They now, with but a few exceptions, will bear a very
tombSSiVith, in fact are much cleaner than, many o those of the lower class of Europeans. This improve-
mlnt may be attributed to a systematic monthly inspection and enforcement of sanitary regulations.
There is however, a great deal of overcrowding in the sleeping apartments of the Chinese, and, where a number of
them are^empWed and slee^ on the premises-a fact which, from a moral and sanitary point of view, is most objectionable
anrpreSuohealth-notwithstanding the general cleanliness of the premises.
J The continued ^£Z^J£^i^*&J%$^ S^^^JT^t^
X dpaffy SgS^S^^ S£? of Goulourn, Campbell, and Wexford Streets .
m, • i-4.„ QO tw»pH<«m1 bv a number of Chinese in past years, by the keeping of brothels, &c, has, in a
areat ItriZZtt\tZTf^UyT^l of this kind t0P m/knowledge are to be found in Wexford-street,
with which I 'cannot legally and officially interfere. , t, . ., . , ,
The baneful habit of smoking opium, however, prevails, and probably will be continued until special legal enactments
for its suppression are made and enforced. .
The return of prosecutions of Chinese at the totaled Wat- Mice Courts during * > P-^^^-
sllow the amount of fines and «^gg^^ ££°&g^ on premises , such cases, however, of late,
£S S^^taiSi^teliWlSo. /xercised by the City Council as before — d. ^
R.' SEYMOUR,
Inspector of Nuisances
72-3P Cllm;S":
482
Ar3?ENDIX.
Chinese Prosecutions at the "Water Police Court, Sydney.
Date of
Inspection.
Name.
Offence.
Situation of Premises.
Court day.
Fine.
Costs.
Total.
£
1
1
4
2 5
2 5
8 19
2 5
2 5
7 18
2 5
1 5
2 5
2 5
2 5
2 5
2 5
2 5
2 5
2 5
2 5
2 5
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
10
10
2
5
5
5
5
4
1
5
5
5
5
5
2
2
2
10
10
10
2
10
10
10
5
10 5 0
10 5 0
10 5 0
10 5
4 5 0
5 5 0
14 Nov.,
1870
13 Aug,
187S
13 „
1875
13 „
1875
16 „
187.
16 „
1875
16 „
1875
16 „
1875
29 Jan,
1877
13 Sept.
1877
13 „
18~7
19 June,
1878
1 Sept.
1879
1 „
1879
8 „
1879
8 Dee,
1879
5 April
,1*80
19 „
1880
4 May,
1830
4 „
188(
16 June
188U
14 April, 1881
21 „
1881
21 „
1881
21 „
188 1
21 „
1881
21 „
1881
21 „
1881
22 „
1881
22 „
1881
22 „
1881
30 „
1881
30 „
1881
30 „
1881
30 „
1881
30 „
1881
30 „
1881
30 May,
1881
30 „
1881
30 „
1881
30 „
1881
30 „
1881
30 „
1881
17 June
1881
18 „
1881
20 „
1881
22 „
1881
28 „
1881
28 „
1881
25 July,
1881
25 „
1881
1 Mar,
1882
17 „
1882
22 „
1882
25 April, 1882
25 „
1882
25 „
1882
25 „
1882
17 July,
1882
3 Aug,
18S2
5 Feb,
1883
IMay,
1883
17 „
1883
13 June, 1883
18 July,
1883
27 Aug.
1883
27 „
1883
27 „
1883
24 „
1883
27 „
1883
27 „
1883
27 „
1883
27 „
1883
27 „
1883
27 „
1883
27 „
1883
27 „
1883
27 „
1883
27 „
1883
28 „
1883
Hap Lee
Way Lee
Wy Hay
Soon Clieong
Ah Toy
Ah Toy
Han Kee
Jack Young
Wua Lee Gong..
Ah Long
Ah Long
Ah Toy
Ah Hook
Jimy Char
Ah Lee
Ah Lee
Ye Lay
George War
Gee War
Ah Chin
Ah Ping
Tiy Kee
Ah King
Ah Man
Sam War
Ah Fun
AhHou
Wyng Yen
Gee Yack
Tuck Chong
Han Kee
Tang War
Ah Sue
Ah Chow
Ah Leon
AhHuck
Li Chon
Sam Yick
Sun Kee
Ah Ye On
Ah Kee
Ah Toy
Chee Faw
Man Yick
Davy Jong
Tack Kei
Hap Kee
Simon Chin On
Jemmy Sing
Dan Pou
Sam. Pou
Hat Leay
Han Kee
Sun Lee
Day Boy
Johnny Hing . ,
Tang Far
Tang War
Tack Sing
Yee Sun Leon ...
Ah Fun
Yee On
Ye War
James Chow
John Moy Mow
Sun Kee
Tong FaDg
Ah Ping
Ah Ping
Ah Fat
Ah Hones
Ah Fun
Ching Ing
Yuck Tong
Mow Yoon
See Kee
Ah Kun .
Ah Kew .
Ah Young
Filth .
Nightsoil
Filth
27
27
1883
1883
Sun Toon Hing
Mrs. Ah Sam ..
Ah Won
Filthy water.
Filth .
George-street
182, George-street.
182,
184,
204, „
312,
215, „
219,
31, Park-street .
211, George-street..
211,
380, Sussex-street . ,
Off Pitt-»treet
Ultimo Road
Off Ultimo Road
320, Castlereagh-street..
54,
54,
Durand's Alley
George-street
219, George-street
Cambridge-street
1875
1875
1875
1875
1875
1875
1877
179, George-street.,,....
177,
233,
348, Castlereagh-street.
Off
214, George-street ....
212,
13, Queen-street
14,
15,
16,
94, Cumberland-street .
529, George-street ....
227,
14, Cambridge-street .
433, Sussex-street
1, Webster square
200, George-street
233,
18, Little Hay-street. . . .
433, Sussex-street
Bartlett's Buildings,
Castlereagh-street.
off
348, „
Bayliss's Buildings, George-st
144, George-street
Clay's Buildings, Cambridge-st
372, Sussex-street
Hay-street
27, Wexford-street
239, George-street
In lane, rear of 212, George-street
In lane, rear of 206, George-street
In lane, rear of 208, George-street
208, George-street
208,
28, Cambridge-street ...
Cambridge-street
171, Little Essex-street. . .
11, Hanson's Buildings, ofi
Queen-street.
12, Hanson's Buildings, oB
Q.ueen-street.
14, Hanson's Buildings, off
Queen-street.
15, Hanson's Buildings, ofi
Queen-street.
214, George-street
26, Cambridge-street
28,
18 Nov, 1870
20 Aug, 18'
20 „
20 „
20 „
20 „
20 „
20 „
9 Feb.
21 Sept, 1877
2L „ 1877
28 June, 1878
5 Sept, 1879
5 „ 1879
19 „ 1879
12 Dec, 1879
9 April, 1880
23 „ 1880
7 May, 1880
7 „ 1880
25 June, 1880
£
1
1
8. d.
0 0
0 0
4 0 0
10 0
8 0 0
4 0 0
2 0
2 0
8 14
2 0
2 0
7 13 0
2 0 0
0 0
0
0
0
0
28 Apri
29 ,,
, lclcU
1881
29 „
1881
29 „
1881
29 „
1881
29 „
1881
29 „
1881
29 „
1881
29 „
1881
29 „
1881
6 May,
6 „
1881
1S81
6 „
1881
6 „
1881
6 »
1881
6 „
1881
17 June
1881
17 „
1881
17 „
1881
J7 „
1881
17 „
1881
17 „
1881
24 „
1881
24 „
1881
1 July
1 ,.
1881
1881
1 ,.
1881
1 >,
1881
5 Aug,
5 „
1881
1881
3 Mar,
1882
24 „
1882
31 „
1882
28 April
5 May,
1882
1882
5 „
1882
5 ,.
1882
21 July,
11 Aug,
9 Feb,
1882
1882
1883
11 May,
25 „
1883
1883
22 June
1883
20 July,
1883
31 Aug.
1883
31 „
1883
31 „
1883
31 „
1883
31 „
1883
31 „
1883
31 „
1883
31 „
1883
31 „
1883
31 „
1883
31 „
1883
31 „
1883
31 „
1883
31 „
1883
31 „
1883
7 Sept.
7 „
,1883
1883
1
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
10
10
2
5
5
5
5
4
1
5
5
5
5
5
2
2
2
10
2
10
10 0
10 0
10 0
10 0
5 0
0
0
0
0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
10 0 0
10 0 0
10 0 0
10 0 0
4 0 0
5 0 0
£ s.
0 5
0 5
0 5
0 5
0. 5
5
5
5
5
5
5
0 5 0
0 5 0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0 5 0
0 5 0
0 5 0
0 5 0
0 5 0
0 5 0
APPENDIX.
483
Chinese Prosecutions ait the Water Police Court, Sydney — continued.
Date of
Inspection.
Name.
Offence.
Situation of Premises.
"Court day.
Costs.
Total.
4 Sept., 18S3
4 Oct., 1883
1 Nov., 1883
7
7
7
7
8
21
1883
1883
1883
188
1883
1883
3 Bee, 1883
4 Jan., 1884
4 Feb., 188*
11 „ 1884
18 ,, 1881
26 Mar., 1884
1 April, 1884
23 May, 1884
24 June, 1881
24 „ 1884
24 „ 1884
21 Julv, 1884
Ah Fay .
Wat Yade Lei ...
Good Kay
Hop Sing Kee
Shing Chong
TahSing
Toy Lee
Tommy All Wong
All Quay
Tang War
Suy Hing
Yuen Took King . . .
Harry Chow
1884
1884
1884
1884
, 1881
1881
1881
21 „
22 „
28 „
28 „
20 Aug.
20 „
20 „
29 Sept., 1884
1 Oct., 18S4
4 „
5 Jan.,
27 „
29 „
2J „
8 Dec.,
5 Jan ,
4 „
Sun Toon Hing
AhFoo
Ah Yee
Dan Ah
Ah Moy
G corgey
Han
Johnny Kong ..
Filth .
1834
1885
1*8
1885
1885
1885
1886
18-6
11 June, 1886
7 July, 1^86
22 „ 18sC
6 Dec., 1886
7 Jan., 1887
15 Feb., 18<<7
15 Mar , 1887
8 Sept., 188
21 „ 18V7
4 Oct., 188:
20 Dec, 1887
5 Jan., 1888
16 „ 1888
16 „ 18S8
16 „ 1888
6 April, 1888
6 „ 1888
10 „ 1888
10 „ 1888
15 May, 1888
28 June, 1888
24 S-pt., 1H88
9 Oct., 1888
28 Dec, 1888
23 Jan., 1889
21 „ 1889
23 „ 1889
29 „ 1889
1889
1889
1889
1889
1889
1890
,1890
1890
1890
20 June, 1891
23 July, 1891
24 1891
AhTong
S un on Lei
Hoy Kee
Tab Sing
Han Kil
Ah Sue
Kum Sing
Toy Lee
Q,ui Fun
AhHue
Hoy Kee
Qu'ong Yee Chong
Ah Tin
All Wan
Sun Lelu Shing .,
Sun on Hing ...
Douug War Quoon
Ah Hang
Sun On Lee ...
Sun On Hing
Ah Lap
Sing MeeTong.
2 Oct
3
))
3
3
3)
31
f7
21
It
3
No-v
3
j)
4
Loo Chong
Tong Sing Low ..
Mow Chong
Ah You
Yan Chow
How Chong
Charley Ching
Yah Coo
Ah Mung
Ah Kee
Long Fok Tong ..
Chee Faw
Ah Gum
Boo Long
Ah Choy
Chow Ying
Sun Quing Quong
Willie War
Sun Hing Towng..
Tung Hing
Ah Kung
Sang Sun
Harry On Sing
Ton Chong
Tiy War
Yee On
Yang Cheong ...
Sun Kum LooDg
Ah How '...
PumXum
Choon Loong ...
Tuck Lee
Tack Kee
Sun Sam War . . .
Dung Lee
5. Hanson's Buildings, off
Queen-street.
354, CastL-reagh-street ...
112, Goulb urn-street
251, Castlereagh-street ...
253, „
328,
327,
56, Goulburn-streefc
411, Pilt-street
348, Castlereagh-street......
52, Goulburn-streefc
170 George street
5 Bartlett's Buildings
off Castlereagh-street
214 George-street
27 Stephen-street ,
48 Goulburn-street
433 Sussex-street
Filth on passage
Filthy water in passage
Filth
P. W. Closet soakage
Filth
7 Sept., 1883
£ s. d.
5 0 0
12 Oct.,
16 Nor.,
16 „
16 „
16 „
16 „
16 „
23 „
Water-closet defective
Filth
1 Bartlett's Buildings, off
Castlereagh-street
348 Castlereagh-street
Re<r of 204 George-street
306 (.astlereagh-stavet
328
198 George-street
39 Mthslale-street
Goulhurn-street
327 Castlereagh-street
19 Foster-.-treefc
Off Pitt-stre-t
306 Casilereagh-street ....
354
433 Sussex-street
433 „
Elizabeth street
214 George-street
202 „
16 Hanson's Buildings, off
Queen-Btreet.
204, George-street
214, ,,
4, Billyard's Buildings
off Little Essex-street
2, Hanson's Buildings
off Q.ueen-street.
52, Wexford-street
173, George-sireet
352, Sussex-street
1, Wexford-street
50, „
352, Sussex-street
16, Cambridge-street
49, Campbell-street
6, Exeter-place
51, Campbell-street
50, Harrington-street
94,
22, Essex-street
19:i, George-street
1, Robertson-lane
4, Goulburn-place
Kobertson-lane
17, „
53, Wexford-street
333, Castlereagh-street .
32, Campbell-street ....
36,
3, Seales' Buildings, off
Goulburn-street
50, Goulburn-street
62,
64,
42, Goulburn-street . .
430, Sussex-street
Hanson's Buildings, off Queen-st
180, George-street
198,
196,
40, Little Essex-street
173, George-street
164,
1883
1883
1883
1883
18M3
1883
1883
1883
7 Dec, 1883
11 Jan., 1884
8 Feb., 18S4
15 „ 1884
22 „ 1884
4 April, 1884
4 „ 1884
30 May, 1884
27 June, 1884
27 „ 1884
27 „ 1884
25 July, 1884
25 „ 1884
25 „ 1884
1 Aug., 1884
1 „ 1884
29 „ 18-4
29 „ 1884
29 „ 1884
3 Oct., 1884
10 „ 1884
13 „ 1884
9 Jan., 1885
6 Feb., 1-85
6
6
11 Dec, 1885
Z2 Jan., 1*86
22 „ 1886
25 June, 1886
23 July, 18S6
6 Aug., 1H86
10 Dec, 1886
21 Jan., 1887
1885
1885
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
3
5
4
5
2
2
5
5
5
1
2
2
5
5
3
6
5
5
5
3
5
3
2
10
2
2
2
5
1
1
3
18 Feb.,
1887
18 Mar.,
1887
16 Sept.,
18S7
30 „
1887
14 „
18S7
23 Dec,
1887
20 Jan.,
1888
20 „
1888
20 „
1888
20 „
1888
13 April
1888
13 „
1888
13 „
1888
13 „
1888
25 May
18s8
6 July,
18S8
28 Sept.
, 1888
12 Oct.,
188S
4 Jan.,
1889
1 Feb.,
1889
1 »
1889
1 „
1889
1 »
1889
11 Oct.
1889
11 „
1889
11 ,.
1889
11 Oct
, 1889
8 Not
,1889
24 Oct.
, 1890
7 Nov
., 1890
7 „
1890
7 „
1890
3 July, 1891
31 „
1891
31 „
1891
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
5 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
£ s. d.
0 5 0
5 0 0
5 0 0
4 0 0
5 0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
5 0 0
3 0 0
3 0 0
2 0 0
0 15 0
2 0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
5 0
5 0
5 0
0 5 0
0 5
£ s. d.
5 5 0
593 2 0
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
3
5
4
5
2
2
5
5
5
1
2
2
5
5
3
6
5
5
5
3
5
3
2
10
2
2
2
5
1
1
3
5 0
5 0
5 5 0
5 5 0
4 5 0
5 5 0
40 4 0
5
3
3
2
1
2
2
2
2
5
3
3
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
0
633 G 0
E; SEYMOUR, Inspector ot Nuisances;
484
APPENDIX.
Chinese Prosecutions at the Central Police Court, Sydney.
Date of
Inspection.
Name.
Offence.
Situation of Premises.
Court day.
Fine.
Costs.
Total.
2 July, 1873
2
2
2
8
14
1873
1873
1873
1873
1873
3 Dec, 1873
3 „ 1873
7 July, 1875
7 „ 1875
30 Aug., 1875
30 „ 1875
13 Nov., 1875
30 „ 1875
19 Aug., 1885
19 „ 1885
19 „ 1885
16 Nov., 1885
30 Dec, 1885
30 „ 1886
1886
1886
1886
188C
1886
1886
1886
9 Jan.
9 „
9 „
9 „
11 „
15 Feb
15 „
21 May, 1886
3 July, 1886
17 Aug., 1886
28 „ 1886
31 „ 1886
6 Sept., 1886
20 „ 1886
20 „ 1886
27 „ 1886
29 „ 1886
16 Oct., 1886
18 „ 1886
17 Nov., 1886
30 „ 1886
3 Jan., 1887
8 „ 1887
17 „
7 Feb.,
7 „
1887
1887
1887
15 Mar., 1887
15 „ 1887
27 April, 1887
14 May, 1887
23 „ 1887
6 June, 1887
27 „ 1887
27 „ 1887
27 „ 1887
15 Aug., 1887
22 „ 1887
24 „ 1887
24 „ 1887
20 Oct., 1887
2 Nov., 1887
2 „ 1887
8 Dec, 1887
12 „ 1887
7 Jan., 1888
7 „ 1888
30 „ 1888
18 Feb., 1888
19 „ 1888
22 Mar., 1888
22 „ 1888
31 „ 1888
30 April, 1888
23 July, 1888
21 Aug., 1888
21 „ 1888
21 „ 1888
16 Feb., 1889
7 May, 1889
18 Oct., 1889
5 Nov., II
12 Mar., 1890
Yank Bain ...
Ah Man
La Bow
John Jing ,
Sam Sin
Ham Heap ...
Willie Kay . . .
George
Q.uong Chung
Ah Lew
Ah Chung
Ah Ping
Ah Sing
John Ching ...
Ah Wah
Ah Ting
See Lee
Ah Wong
Ah King
Lee Chong ...
Ah Young
Way Kee
Ah Chong
Young Lee
Many Lee
Ah Chong
Quong Yee Chong
Sum Kung
Chung Kee
Tack Luong
AhTiy
Ah Choon
Hoy Kee
May War Q.uoon . .
Sing Sing Kee
Ah Wan
Ah How
Hoc Chew
Ah Ping
Ly Yan
Sun See Lee
Hung Lung
Ah Chong
Filth .
Ah Mong
Quin Young
Chong Chan You, or
Ah You.
Tong Hing
Ah Choy
Quong Mow
AhTiy
Ah Sing
Ah Youg
Li Chang
Ah How
Ah Moy
Ah Chung
Lee Ching
William Quinn Young .
May Chong
Toy Lee
Tong Hing
Thung Kee
Ah Sun
Quing Young .....
Quing Young
You Chow
Wen Lay
Willie Wong
Yec Lee
Yee Lee
Harp Lee Kee ....
Ring Kee
Yee Chin
Sun Chong
Sun Chong Loong
Goon Ping
Ah Chong
Quong Yee Chong..
Keen Loy
On War Lee
Yet Hing John...
Filth on passage lead
ing to his premises.
Filth
Drainage defective
Filth
Drain defective
Filth
Goulburn-street
Castlereagh-street
Pitt-street
332, Castlereagh street..
334,
334,
365,
Off Goulburn-street
2, Quig's-lane
39, Nithsdale-street
50, Wexford-street
15, Exeter Place
1, Eliza-place, off Black-
burn-street.
1, Goulburn-place
5, Goulburn-street
48, „
52,
93, ,,
4, Exeter-place
354, Castlereagh-street
15, Exeter-place
48, Goulburn-street
374, Pitt-street
Goulburn-place
39, Nithsdale-street
306, Castlereagh-slreet
52, Goulburn-street
56,
25, Foster-street
8, Kimber's-lane
Vacant land in Campbell-st
57, Campbell-street
48, Wexford-street
60, Goulburn-street
427, Pitt-street
49, Campbell-street
43, Wexford-street ....
91, Goulburn-Btreet ..
60,
333, Castlereagh-street.
49, Campbell-street ..
427, Pitt-street
23, Robertson -lane
17, Exeter-place
39, Wexford-street
47,
6, Exeter-pln ce
1, Seale's Buildings, off
Goulburn-street.
427, Pitt-street
91, Goulburn-street ..
91,
352, Sussex-street
327, Castlereagh-street..
333,
48, Goulburn-street
3, Seale's Buildings, off
Goulburn-street.
91, Goulburn-street
91,
50, Wexford-street
427, Pitt-street
427, „
323, Castlereagh-street..
325, „
222, Sussex-street
352,
32, Campbell-street
50, Goulburn-street
52,
54, „
19, Robertson-lane
346, Castlereagh-street. .
426, Sussex-street
46, Campbell-street
Off
10 July,
1873
10 „
1873
10 „
1873
10 „
1873
17 „
1873
17 „
1873
11 Dec,
1873
11 „
1873
15 July,
1875
15 „
1875
2 Sept.
1875
2 „
1875
16 Dec,
1875
16 „
1875
27 Aug.
1885
27 „
1885
10 Sept.
,1885
19 Nov.,
1885
7 Jan.,
1886
7 „
188R
14 „
1886
14 „
1886
14 „
1886
14 „
1886
1* „
1886
25 Feb.,
1886
25 „
1886
27 May,
1886
15 July,
1886
26 Aug.
1886
9 Sept.
,1886
23 „
23 ,,
23 „
7 Oct.,
7 „
21 „
21 „
2 Dec,
16 „
13 Jan.,
13 „
1886
1886
1886
1886
1886
1886
1886
1886
1886
1886
1887
1887
27 „ 1887
10 Feb., 1887
10 „ 1887
24 Mar., 1887
24 „ 1887
5 May, 1887
19 „ 1887
2 June, 1887
16 „ 1887
30 „ 18S7
30 „ 1887
30 „ 1887
25 Aug., 1887
25 „ 1S87
8 Sept., 1887
8 „ 1887
3 Nov.
17 „
17 „
15 Dec.
15 „
1887
1887
1887
1887
1887
12 Jan.,
12 „
9 Feb.,
23 „
23 „
5 April,
5 „
5 >,
3 May,
26 July,
23 Aug.,
23 „
23 „
21 Feb.,
16 May,
31 Oct.,
14 Nov.,
20 Mar.,
1888
1888
1888
1888
1688
1888
1888
1888
1888
1888
1888
1888
1888
1889
1889
1889
1889
1890
£ s. d.
0 5 0
5
5
5
0
0
0
0
8 14
8 14
5 0
2 0
10 0
5 0
5 0
0
0
0
5
5
10
2
2
2
2
4 0
1 0
;i o
3 0
3 0
5 0
5 0
5 0
10 0
3 0
5 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
2 0 0
2 0 0
2 0 0
5 0 0
5 0 0
3 0 0
5 0 0
0 10 0
0 10 0
5 0 0
2 0 0
£ s. d.
0 5 0
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
6
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0 5 0
0 5 0
0 5 C
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
6
6
6
£ s.
0 10
0 10
0 10
0 10
2 5
2 5
2 5
2 5
8 19 0
8 19 0
5 0
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
2
2
2
3
2
2
2
5
3
5
2
2
10
5
5
2
3
1
1
3
5
5
3
2 5 0
2 5 0
2 5 0
5
5
5
5
2
5 5 0-
5 5 0
3 5 0
5 5 0
0 15 0
0 15 0
5 5 0
2 5 0
5
5
10
2
2
2
2
4
1
3
3
3
5
5
5
10
3
5
Date of
Inspection.
2 April, 1890
5 May, 1890
28 „ 1890
28 „ 1890
28 „ 1890
29 Sept., 1890
29 „ 1890
21 Jan., 1891
21 „ 1891
18 Feb
18 „
20 „
12 Mar., 1891
6 April, 1891
8 „
2 May,
4
27 April, 1891
25 June, 1891
1891
1891
1891
1891
1891
1891
APPENDIX.
Chinese Prosecutions at the Central Police Court, Sydney — continued.
485
Name.
Offence.
Ah Ming
TyPing
On War Lee
Yan Lee
Sun Kee
YeeChin
Sun Lee
Go Bo
Tong Yae Jang ... .
Sing War Tong .
Gee War '.
Yum War
Han Kee
Ah Sing
War Hing
Chee Loy
Tiy On
Sun Quing Fong .
Gee War
Situation of Premises.
Filth
»>
jj
>i
jj
»
W.C. a nuisance
Filth
6, Exeter-place
413, Sussex-street ...
46, Campbell-street
48,
54,
52,
Bear of 417, Pitt-street
417a, Pitt-street
352, Castlereagh-street...
309,
28, Campbell-street
166, George-street
43, Wexford-street
36 and 38, Hunt-street
407, Pitt-street
62, Wexford-street
Robertson's-lane
309, Castlereagh-streeti>. .
Court day.
Fine.
17 April
15 May,
12 June,
1890
1890
1890
12 „
1890
12 „
1890
16 Oct.,
1890
16 „
1890
5 Feb.,
1891
5 „
189 L
5 Mar.
1891
5 „
1891
5 „
1891
19 „
1891
30 April, 1891
30 „ 1891
14 May,
14 „
1801
1891
14 „
1891
9 July
1891
£ s. d.
7 10 0
2 0
0
0
0
0
0
o
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
0 0
371 3 0
s. d.
5 6
No costs.
25 10 6
£ s.
7 15
2 5
2
2
2
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
3
2
5
0 10
10 0
396 13 6
E. SEYMOUE,
Inspector of Nuisances.
The Inspector-General of Police, Sydney.
Sir, Police Department, Superintendent's Office, Metropolitan District, 21 September, 1891.
I have the honor to submit herewith returns containing the information asked for by the Chinese Gambling
Inquiry Commission, so far as the records of this Department will supply it.
After due inquiry, I found that, to furnish accurate returns from city and suburban stations, it would not be possible
to go further back than the year 1880. The returns, therefore, cover a period of eleven years and eight months.
In dealing with the number of persons proceeded against for gambling, it has been deemed advisable to compile two
returns— tables 1 and 1a. The one contains particulars of cases in which the offenders were apprehended, and the other of
cases in which proceedings were by summons.
The reason for this distinction will be obvious. Where persons are apprehended, full particulars as to age,
nationality, degree of education, &c, are recorded ; but where a summons issues, the offender not being at any time in
custody, no such information is obtainable ; hence table 1 supplies fuller details than table 1a.
The statistical records of the Police Department are kept on the system laid down by the Government Statistician,
with a view to supply to him annually the information he requires.
I forward herewith blank forms of the annual returns furnished to him, from the headings of which it will be seen
that the police records do not contain some of the information necessary to reply fully to the queries of the Commission.
For instance— the nature of the penalty in each case, reason for discharge, place in which offence was committed, police
office in which case was dealt with, nature of gambling, occupation and general circumstances of persons apprehended—
cannot be ascertained.
With regard to table 1a, the annual returns show only the total number of cases in which the police have proceeded
by summons ; but I have caused the officers to go carefully through the records since 1880, and obtained accurate
particulars as to how the cases were disposed of.
The action of the police in dealing with gambling has not been of a spasmodic nature, and it has not been
customary to make periodical raids. The procedure has been, that where from careful police observation, or where state-
ments of informers nave been abundantly confirmed by police inquiry and surveillance, it has been found that habitual
gambling is carried on at any place, an information is sworn, and a warrant to search the prem.ses applied for ; and should
it transpire that gambling is in fact being carried on, all persons present are arrested, and gaming instruments, &c, seized.
Hence as a rule, a considerable number of persons are arrested at one time, giving the matter the semblance of a
raid ; brtthie occurrences are not such in any sense, being the only mode of procedure open to the police under existing
laws. .
In reference to the return of Chinese residents, every care has been exercised to have it as accurate and complete as
■i i w o* +hP PhinMe themselves had to a great extent to be relied upon for the information sought, it may not be so
LThentic as the other" return "^piling it, ft was considered better t| commence at the most northern portion of the
Metropolitan District-Manly-and follow contiguously through to Kogarah
PAn index has been provided for facility of reference to any particular locality.
Ti -ii i„ r.nhVod tbnt according to census, as per table 2, a larger number of Chinese appears to be resident m
It will be no iced that *^to g to censu p , g ^ ^ ^^^ statistioiaI1 moludea
Sydney and^suburbs *^fo*J^™ZL.™£1d which places are outside the Metropolitan Police District.
I have, &c,
G. READ,
Superintendent..
Hvclnev and suburos tnan mis reium ■»»» , «»« ~. — — - — a— j =
Rydeind Hunter's Hill in the suburban area, both of which places are <
Table 1,
486
APPENDIX.
TABLE 1.
Return showing the number of apprehensions for Gambling, in the City of Sydney and Suburbs, from 1st January,
lb.sO, to 31st August, 1891 ; the degree of education of the persons arrested, their ages, nationality, and how
their eases were disposed of.
Decree of Education
Ages.
S'atioi
ality.
En c
£"j
How
Disposed of.
Year.
3
o
H
■s
c
.- o
r.
0
6
d >
d
C
O
0
CO
0
0
0*
0
0
0
0
10
0
0
c5
0
0
0
O a.
w 3
"So
■5™
0 j§
"0
c
~s
3
O
CJ
03
.3 3
a
§
1
c
0
T3
S?
5
ri
0
c
0
0
ISsO
151
103
79
118
127
151-
1!!8
114
159
80
112
137
40
1
5
4
8
O
28
25
22
"5
12
30
1
3
1
110
99
71
114
119
151
170
89
137
75
100
107
12
3 J
7
13
16
25
17
4
7
3
11
6
54
31
35
47
45
71
74
40
37
26
66
34
569
42
27
;-l
51
43
51
39
50
41
TO
46
473
2t
6
5
15
11
9
29
18
39
,10
9
29
207
17
6
4
3
3
18
4
19
"5
14
93
9
2
1
2
1
1
3
1
5
"i
8
27
2
i
2
3
2
12
83
52
57
91
83
118
102
62
47
59
74
62
890
7
12
4
9
15
12
15
13
4
9
5
5
110
18
6
6
10
16
12
33
13
14
7
12
18
105
6
1
3
3
6
8
(J
1
5
2
5
2
48
1
1
1
3
2
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2
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2
5
3
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2
2
2
S5
30
5
19
23
82
10
37
1
3
2
3
15
4
1
1
6
61
31
10
11
16
6
27
8
63
39
9
1
90
1881
72
1SS2
1883
69
107
1881
111
1885
118
1886
171
1887
1888
1889
10u
96
41
18H0
103
1891*
136
Total arreBts..
1,532
182
5
1,345
151
24
6
3
9
241
36
282
1,250
Total Number")
of Summons 1
cases as per C
Table lA ...,'
1,648
*For
8 mat
iths from Is
i Jam,
ary to
31st j
i.UgUS
fc.
Gross Totals
364
616
1,284
Gross Total ..
3,180
2,534
TABLE 1a.
Return showing the number of persons proceeded against, by Summons, for G-ambling, in the City of
Sydney and Suburbs, from 1st January, 1880, to 3lst August, 1891.
Total number
proceeded against.
How disposed of.
Remarks.
Convicted.
Discharged.
1880
124
93
67
101
161
151
174
119
192
177
134
155
Ill
67
51
66
125
123
132
97
163
123
112
114
13
26
16
35
36
28
42
22
29
54
2i
41
1881
1882
1883
1884
s
1885
18*6
1887
1888
1889
1890
1891 (eight months)
From 1 Jan. to 31 Aug.
Total
1,648
1,284
364
TABLE 2.
Return showing the total population of the City of Sydney and Suburbs — distinguishing Chinese
residents — each year from 1880 to 1891 (inclusive). Compiled from Government Statistician's
records.
Year.
Total population each year.
Number of
Chinese residents each year.
Remarks.
1880
225,200
237,300
250,050
263,480
277,630
292,550
30S,270
324,*30
342,280
360,670
380,040
386,859
1,014
2,232
2,240
2,394
2,766
3,156
3,548
4,136
4,202
3,837
3,582
3,499
Approximate.
1881
1882
Approximate.
1883
1884
1885
1886
18S7
1888
1889
1890
1891
TABLE 3.
Return showing total number of places in the City of Sydney and Suburbs known to the Police as
places in which habitual gambling take3 place ; also number of same occupied by Chinese.
Total number, 105 ; number occupied by Chinese, 63. Return
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494 APPENDIX.
Letter from Mr. Thomas Nock.
Sir, 194 and 196 George-street, Sydney, 20 November, 1891.
In the course of my examination before your Commission on Wednesday last, you remarked that my evidence
had not been substantiated in all cases. I would therefore like to state that, though such may be the case, it does not
necessarily follow that my statements are not true and cannot be substantiated, for if I myself had had the slightest idea
of the punishment my telling the truth has imposed upon our firm, I should have hesitated to have come forward in the
way I did. Having seen many of the witnesses who have given evidence, I find that in Rome cases they have withheld facta
which would have borne me out, and they have explained to me that the power held by the police through the "sacredness"
attached to a constable's oath in Court, and they being without influence and liable to be arrested at any moment on a false
charge (such as the recent sailor's case), has prevented them from divulging all they knew, and I must say my sympathies
are with them.
As regards this Chinese gambling business and other forms of gambling, I still say that if the police did their duty
(as in some cases they are now doing), the evil would soon be stamped out, and injustices on other people as in the case
of the tenants in this neighbourhood by increased rents on their leases, combined with loss of trade by money going into
illegitimate channels, would in a great measure be reduced.
Now sir, I would ask you the question, who will recoup us our loss, say, even the excessive rent paid to the landlord
which is indeed no small item during the last ten years ? During the passing of the Chinese Restriction Act, we, who are
sufferers by the loss of the genuine Chinese trade to the extent of £500 per annum, knowing that the stoppage of the
immigration was for the good of the public generally, made no complaint, although such stoppage has caused those Chinese
who still remain to be independent and consequently seeing their opportunity, take up "fan -tan" as an easy mode of
living well without any hard work, for those merchants who at one time did their business through encouraging immigration,
now employ these men who are left to carry on this gambling business. I would instance the case of my neighbour (who is
a cabinet-maker, carrying on a legitimate business), he having frequent quarrels with his men ; upon my inquiring the cause
he informed me that as no more Chinamen were coming into the country, his men were lazy and independent, and on being
remonstrated with, they have told him they could get an easier living by assisting at one of these " fan-tan " shops, and in
fact, some of them have left him to do so, making those still remaining working for him demand increased rates of pay, and
knowing his position, do less work.
The " boycott " placed upon our establishment by the Chinese (who form a considerable portion of the population
down here) and the police whose interest in this neighbourhood is very great, has nearly ruined our business, and we who
had hoped for speedy relief, find that we are simply punished for taking the steps we did.
Trusting that this letter will be attached to my evidence given before you.
I am, &c. ,
The President, Chinese Gambling Inquiry Commission. THOMAS NOCK.
Sydney: Charles Potter, Government Printer.— 1892
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